In this episode of the Bookmore Show, I sit down with Brent Hilvitz and Vince Reese to discuss their co-authored book, "Untying the Knots," which focuses on navigating real estate and mortgage issues during divorce. Brent, a real estate expert, and Vince, a mortgage lender, share insights on how they aim to simplify the asset division process, particularly in real estate.
\n\nWe explore why they chose to target individuals going through divorce, noting that it’s a life event that prompts asset division regardless of market conditions. They emphasize the importance of understanding options available to those affected, such as refinancing or keeping marital property.
\n\nBrent and Vince discuss the evolving landscape of real estate and lending, particularly how recent interest rate hikes have influenced clients' perceptions of their financial options. They stress the significance of early engagement, as proactive measures can lead to better outcomes.
\n\nThe conversation highlights the value of starting discussions about financial decisions before divorce proceedings are finalized. By providing a roadmap for individuals in this situation, the authors hope to equip them with knowledge and strategies to navigate the complexities of divorce and real estate. Overall, this episode serves as a guide for anyone facing these challenges, offering practical advice and support.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/183
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Brent Hilvitz:
\n\nLinkedIn: Brent Hilvitz
\nWebsite: Redesigned Realty
Vincent Reece:
\n\nLinkedIn: Vincent Reece
\nWebsite: Colorado Mortgage Guy
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"In this episode of the Bookmore Show, I sit down with Brent Hilvitz and Vince Reese to discuss their co-authored book, \"_Untying the Knots,_\" which focuses on navigating real estate and mortgage issues during divorce. Brent, a real estate expert, and Vince, a mortgage lender, share insights on how they aim to simplify the asset division process, particularly in real estate. \r\n\r\nWe explore why they chose to target individuals going through divorce, noting that it’s a life event that prompts asset division regardless of market conditions. They emphasize the importance of understanding options available to those affected, such as refinancing or keeping marital property. \r\n\r\nBrent and Vince discuss the evolving landscape of real estate and lending, particularly how recent interest rate hikes have influenced clients' perceptions of their financial options. They stress the significance of early engagement, as proactive measures can lead to better outcomes. \r\n\r\nThe conversation highlights the value of starting discussions about financial decisions before divorce proceedings are finalized. By providing a roadmap for individuals in this situation, the authors hope to equip them with knowledge and strategies to navigate the complexities of divorce and real estate. Overall, this episode serves as a guide for anyone facing these challenges, offering practical advice and support.","date_published":"2024-11-27T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/eddef550-9289-472f-a492-eb636215bb11.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":53622878,"duration_in_seconds":3311}]},{"id":"e41d4f27-cc70-454b-9c20-9c72cfbab037","title":"Ep182: Elevating Your Digital Strategy with Philippa Gamse","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/182","content_text":"Today on the Book More Show, I sit down with Philippa Gamse, co-author of 42 Rules for a Web Presence That Wins, to break down the essentials of web strategy and analytics. Philippa shares how her book, inspired by The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, simplifies digital concepts into 42 straightforward rules designed for business owners building an impactful web presence. We discuss creating accessible content that establishes authority without overwhelming readers, especially those new to the digital landscape.\n\nPhilippa and I then explored the importance of business analytics. She shares client stories illustrating how connecting website and social media analytics can drive tangible outcomes—like tracking product sales or course sign-ups—by turning data into actionable insights. \n\nAs we wrap up, we look at optimizing podcast and website strategies. She then offered practical tips for increasing visibility and making the most of existing content. \n\nThis conversation is packed with advice on leveraging relationships, customer feedback, and content planning to refine your digital footprint. Join us for insights that can transform your web presence and business growth approach.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n In this episode, I welcome Philippa Gamse, a web strategy and analytics consultant, who co-authored \"42 Rules for a Web Presence That Wins\" with Mitchell Levy. The book draws inspiration from \"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy\" and offers 42 concise rules for creating effective web content.\n Philippa discusses the challenges and benefits of writing succinct content that is accessible to business owners without overwhelming them with technical details, particularly for those at the initial stages of building a web presence.\n We explore the importance of integrating website and social media analytics to track tangible business outcomes, such as product sales and course sign-ups, and the need for a well-functioning analytics setup to support data-driven decisions.\n The episode highlights the limitations of analytics in understanding user behavior and the value of direct customer feedback and user testing to uncover insights beyond what data alone can provide.\n We delve into privacy legislation challenges in digital analytics, emphasizing transparency with users through clear privacy statements and easy opt-out options.\n Philippa shares strategies for increasing the visibility of podcast content, such as leveraging AI tools to extract engaging quotes for social media and organizing episodes by themes to enhance discoverability.\n The conversation underscores the importance of content planning and using AI tools to keep content fresh and engaging while maintaining the human touch in content creation.\n Philippa encourages leveraging existing content and using tools like Google Analytics 4 to optimize content for better outcomes and maximize impact.\n We discuss the transformative power of conversational content creation and the strategic use of existing materials to enhance engagement and visibility.\n Philippa shares insights from Philippa Connects, emphasizing the importance of relationships and feedback in refining web presence and invites listeners to explore the potential of transforming their information into a book with Nine Minute Books.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/182\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nPhilippa Gamse:\n\nLinkedIn: Philippa Gamse\nWebsite: Websites that Win International\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
Today on the Book More Show, I sit down with Philippa Gamse, co-author of 42 Rules for a Web Presence That Wins, to break down the essentials of web strategy and analytics. Philippa shares how her book, inspired by The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, simplifies digital concepts into 42 straightforward rules designed for business owners building an impactful web presence. We discuss creating accessible content that establishes authority without overwhelming readers, especially those new to the digital landscape.
\n\nPhilippa and I then explored the importance of business analytics. She shares client stories illustrating how connecting website and social media analytics can drive tangible outcomes—like tracking product sales or course sign-ups—by turning data into actionable insights.
\n\nAs we wrap up, we look at optimizing podcast and website strategies. She then offered practical tips for increasing visibility and making the most of existing content.
\n\nThis conversation is packed with advice on leveraging relationships, customer feedback, and content planning to refine your digital footprint. Join us for insights that can transform your web presence and business growth approach.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/182
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Philippa Gamse:
\n\nLinkedIn: Philippa Gamse
\nWebsite: Websites that Win International
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, I sit down with Philippa Gamse, co-author of *42 Rules for a Web Presence That Wins,* to break down the essentials of web strategy and analytics. Philippa shares how her book, inspired by *The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,* simplifies digital concepts into 42 straightforward rules designed for business owners building an impactful web presence. We discuss creating accessible content that establishes authority without overwhelming readers, especially those new to the digital landscape.\r\n\r\nPhilippa and I then explored the importance of business analytics. She shares client stories illustrating how connecting website and social media analytics can drive tangible outcomes—like tracking product sales or course sign-ups—by turning data into actionable insights. \r\n\r\nAs we wrap up, we look at optimizing podcast and website strategies. She then offered practical tips for increasing visibility and making the most of existing content. \r\n\r\nThis conversation is packed with advice on leveraging relationships, customer feedback, and content planning to refine your digital footprint. Join us for insights that can transform your web presence and business growth approach.","date_published":"2024-11-20T07:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/e41d4f27-cc70-454b-9c20-9c72cfbab037.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":49051988,"duration_in_seconds":3025}]},{"id":"099cb0b6-7cd2-460d-829a-b273efb6192f","title":"Ep181: Authoring Success with Igor Kheifets ","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/181","content_text":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I talk with Igor Kheifets about his journey from a traditional upbringing in Ukraine to becoming a leader in entrepreneurship and digital marketing. Growing up in a family of educators, Igor was expected to follow a conventional career path. Instead, he chose a path that offered more freedom and creativity, leading him to affiliate marketing and email list building.\n\nIgor shares practical insights into email marketing, focusing on the importance of building an engaged audience as a foundation for financial stability. He explains how a well-maintained email list supports resilience in changing markets and serves as a dependable channel for promoting products and services. Igor’s experience highlights the value of adaptability and persistence in a digital world.\n\nWe also talk about Igor’s journey to becoming an author, and how publishing a book can establish authority and credibility. He describes the unique benefits of physical books in building connections, gathering leads, and leaving a lasting impact. For anyone interested in entrepreneurship, digital marketing, or personal branding, this episode offers practical insights drawn from Igor’s story.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n I explore Igor Kheifets journey from his upbringing in Ukraine to becoming an entrepreneur in Israel, highlighting his transition from a traditional path to a more creative and independent lifestyle.\n Igor discusses his decision to leave the conventional 9-to-5 job market and his entry into the world of affiliate marketing and email list building.\n The episode emphasizes the importance of an engaged email list as a stable financial asset, regardless of market changes or platform volatility.\n We delve into the strategic significance of email marketing and how it helps top affiliates maintain their leadership positions.\n Igor shares his experiences in authorship, explaining how publishing a book can elevate one's professional status and establish authority.\n We discuss the advantages of physical books over digital ones in terms of credibility and long-lasting impressions.\n Igor highlights the role of books in collecting valuable contact information and building meaningful relationships with audiences.\n There's a discussion on the importance of understanding client readiness and maintaining active engagement through email lists.\n Igor offers insights into his own experiences with the challenges and opportunities of the digital marketing landscape.\n We explore the technical aspects of email marketing, including deliverability and system maintenance to ensure effective communication with audiences.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/181\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nIgor Kheifets:\n\nLinkedIn: Igor Kheifets\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
In this episode of the Book More Show, I talk with Igor Kheifets about his journey from a traditional upbringing in Ukraine to becoming a leader in entrepreneurship and digital marketing. Growing up in a family of educators, Igor was expected to follow a conventional career path. Instead, he chose a path that offered more freedom and creativity, leading him to affiliate marketing and email list building.
\n\nIgor shares practical insights into email marketing, focusing on the importance of building an engaged audience as a foundation for financial stability. He explains how a well-maintained email list supports resilience in changing markets and serves as a dependable channel for promoting products and services. Igor’s experience highlights the value of adaptability and persistence in a digital world.
\n\nWe also talk about Igor’s journey to becoming an author, and how publishing a book can establish authority and credibility. He describes the unique benefits of physical books in building connections, gathering leads, and leaving a lasting impact. For anyone interested in entrepreneurship, digital marketing, or personal branding, this episode offers practical insights drawn from Igor’s story.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/181
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Igor Kheifets:
\n\nLinkedIn: Igor Kheifets
\n\n\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I talk with Igor Kheifets about his journey from a traditional upbringing in Ukraine to becoming a leader in entrepreneurship and digital marketing. Growing up in a family of educators, Igor was expected to follow a conventional career path. Instead, he chose a path that offered more freedom and creativity, leading him to affiliate marketing and email list building.\r\n\r\nIgor shares practical insights into email marketing, focusing on the importance of building an engaged audience as a foundation for financial stability. He explains how a well-maintained email list supports resilience in changing markets and serves as a dependable channel for promoting products and services. Igor’s experience highlights the value of adaptability and persistence in a digital world.\r\n\r\nWe also talk about Igor’s journey to becoming an author, and how publishing a book can establish authority and credibility. He describes the unique benefits of physical books in building connections, gathering leads, and leaving a lasting impact. For anyone interested in entrepreneurship, digital marketing, or personal branding, this episode offers practical insights drawn from Igor’s story.\r\n","date_published":"2024-11-13T08:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/099cb0b6-7cd2-460d-829a-b273efb6192f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":49098584,"duration_in_seconds":3068}]},{"id":"dd3ab11b-b95b-4025-b8c3-2bbfa693a84f","title":"Ep180:From Struggles to Strength with Gary Kadi","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/180","content_text":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I speak with Gary Kadi, a veteran in the dental industry who has rejuvenated over 6,000 dental practices. Gary opens up about his personal and professional journey, revealing how he found true fulfillment beyond traditional markers of success. \n\nFrom overcoming addiction to supporting his autistic son, Gary shares the life lessons he’s gathered along the way, illustrating how resilience has shaped his path. His story is a reminder that success can mean much more than financial achievement—it can be about personal growth, family, and health.\n\nWe explore the concept of \"pinch points,\" those pivotal moments that challenge us to reflect and evolve. Gary shares how these moments pushed him to shift from a self-centered mindset to a collaborative spirit. Through his experiences, he highlights the importance of humility and the role that early family dynamics play in shaping our drive and identity.\n\nOur conversation also highlights practical insights for authors looking to build communities around their work. Gary discusses strategies for engaging readers through book content, emphasizing how authors can use their material to create lasting connections and community engagement.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n In this episode, I discuss the concept of redefining success with Gary Kadi, who shares his transformative journey from personal struggles to achieving fulfillment beyond financial gains.\n Gary opens up about his battle with addiction and the impact it had on his life, emphasizing the importance of health, relationships, and finding purpose beyond professional success.\n We explore the pivotal \"pinch points\" in life that can spark self-reflection and personal evolution, often leading to a shift from a self-centered mindset to a collaborative spirit.\n Gary shares insights into how childhood experiences and family dynamics can shape identity and drive, often fueling a lifelong quest for parental approval.\n We discuss innovative strategies for authors to leverage their book content to build thriving communities, focusing on creating engaging narratives and effective lead-generation systems.\n The episode addresses the emotional struggles men face and the need for a safe, judgment-free space for them to express their feelings, inspired by the idea of creating a place similar to Starbucks.\n Gary shares his journey of supporting a son with autism, illustrating how challenges can be transformed into opportunities for growth and connection.\n The conversation highlights the importance of turning competitive instincts into humility and openness, showcasing how genuine growth can emerge from life's trials.\n We touch on the psychosomatic effects of suppressed emotions and the importance of finding peace and reconciliation before it's too late.\n The episode concludes with Gary providing resources for listeners to connect with him and access further insights into achieving personal and professional success.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/180\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nGary Kadi:\nWebsite: Next Level Practice | \nLinkedIn: Gary Kadi\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
In this episode of the Book More Show, I speak with Gary Kadi, a veteran in the dental industry who has rejuvenated over 6,000 dental practices. Gary opens up about his personal and professional journey, revealing how he found true fulfillment beyond traditional markers of success.
\n\nFrom overcoming addiction to supporting his autistic son, Gary shares the life lessons he’s gathered along the way, illustrating how resilience has shaped his path. His story is a reminder that success can mean much more than financial achievement—it can be about personal growth, family, and health.
\n\nWe explore the concept of "pinch points," those pivotal moments that challenge us to reflect and evolve. Gary shares how these moments pushed him to shift from a self-centered mindset to a collaborative spirit. Through his experiences, he highlights the importance of humility and the role that early family dynamics play in shaping our drive and identity.
\n\nOur conversation also highlights practical insights for authors looking to build communities around their work. Gary discusses strategies for engaging readers through book content, emphasizing how authors can use their material to create lasting connections and community engagement.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/180
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Gary Kadi:
\nWebsite: Next Level Practice |
\nLinkedIn: Gary Kadi
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I speak with Gary Kadi, a veteran in the dental industry who has rejuvenated over 6,000 dental practices. Gary opens up about his personal and professional journey, revealing how he found true fulfillment beyond traditional markers of success. \r\n\r\nFrom overcoming addiction to supporting his autistic son, Gary shares the life lessons he’s gathered along the way, illustrating how resilience has shaped his path. His story is a reminder that success can mean much more than financial achievement—it can be about personal growth, family, and health.\r\n\r\nWe explore the concept of \"pinch points,\" those pivotal moments that challenge us to reflect and evolve. Gary shares how these moments pushed him to shift from a self-centered mindset to a collaborative spirit. Through his experiences, he highlights the importance of humility and the role that early family dynamics play in shaping our drive and identity.\r\n\r\nOur conversation also highlights practical insights for authors looking to build communities around their work. Gary discusses strategies for engaging readers through book content, emphasizing how authors can use their material to create lasting connections and community engagement.\r\n","date_published":"2024-11-06T13:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/dd3ab11b-b95b-4025-b8c3-2bbfa693a84f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":42984537,"duration_in_seconds":2646}]},{"id":"7b249ed0-b0ab-47c7-8cac-effa2fa14c3e","title":"Ep179: Leveraging Books for Business with Mike Mack","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/179","content_text":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with Mike Mack, a key figure in writing and business development. Mike shares his journey since the release of his first book, \"Remarkable Service,\" in 2016 and discusses how his writing has evolved. \n\nWe explore the challenges and opportunities that emerged during the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly how virtual interactions expanded his business globally. Mike also offers a preview of his upcoming book, \"Weekend Wisdom,\" which is set for release in 2025.\n\nWe delve into the strategic role of books in building relationships within the executive coaching community. Mike emphasizes how physical and digital formats can be powerful tools for connecting with clients and reinforcing coaching philosophies. He shares his practice of gifting books to new managers, illustrating how they can foster ongoing engagement and support.\n\nAs our conversation unfolds, Mike reflects on the changes in his writing process over time. He notes that the journey becomes smoother and more intuitive with each new project. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n I discuss with Mike Mack his journey in writing and how his books have been instrumental in his business growth and executive coaching success.\n Mike shares insights from his debut book \"Remarkable Service,\" published in 2016, and subsequent works like \"Relationship for Keeps\" and a co-authored book on retention.\n We explore how the COVID-19 pandemic expanded his business globally through virtual interactions and provided new opportunities for growth.\n Mike offers a preview of his upcoming book \"Weekend Wisdom,\" which is set to release in 2025, emphasizing the evolution of his writing process.\n We delve into the strategic use of books, both physical and digital, in building relationships and reinforcing coaching philosophies within the executive coaching community.\n The episode highlights the timeless nature of valuable content and how books continue to foster meaningful connections long after their publication.\n Mike talks about his experience in co-authoring a book on retention and the impact of giving away copies to build credibility and connections.\n We discuss the advantages of using different formats like visual, audio, and written to engage audiences and expand on themes like discipline, alignment, and clarity.\n Mike reflects on how writing a book has become more manageable with experience and the supportive nature of our professional relationship.\n Listeners are encouraged to connect with Mike through his website and LinkedIn for the latest insights and updates on his projects.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/179\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nMike Mack:\nWebsite: X5Management | \nLinkedIn: Mike Mack\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with Mike Mack, a key figure in writing and business development. Mike shares his journey since the release of his first book, "Remarkable Service," in 2016 and discusses how his writing has evolved.
\n\nWe explore the challenges and opportunities that emerged during the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly how virtual interactions expanded his business globally. Mike also offers a preview of his upcoming book, "Weekend Wisdom," which is set for release in 2025.
\n\nWe delve into the strategic role of books in building relationships within the executive coaching community. Mike emphasizes how physical and digital formats can be powerful tools for connecting with clients and reinforcing coaching philosophies. He shares his practice of gifting books to new managers, illustrating how they can foster ongoing engagement and support.
\n\nAs our conversation unfolds, Mike reflects on the changes in his writing process over time. He notes that the journey becomes smoother and more intuitive with each new project.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/179
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Mike Mack:
\nWebsite: X5Management |
\nLinkedIn: Mike Mack
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with Mike Mack, a key figure in writing and business development. Mike shares his journey since the release of his first book, \"_Remarkable Service_,\" in 2016 and discusses how his writing has evolved. \r\n\r\nWe explore the challenges and opportunities that emerged during the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly how virtual interactions expanded his business globally. Mike also offers a preview of his upcoming book, \"Weekend Wisdom,\" which is set for release in 2025.\r\n\r\nWe delve into the strategic role of books in building relationships within the executive coaching community. Mike emphasizes how physical and digital formats can be powerful tools for connecting with clients and reinforcing coaching philosophies. He shares his practice of gifting books to new managers, illustrating how they can foster ongoing engagement and support.\r\n\r\nAs our conversation unfolds, Mike reflects on the changes in his writing process over time. He notes that the journey becomes smoother and more intuitive with each new project. ","date_published":"2024-10-30T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/7b249ed0-b0ab-47c7-8cac-effa2fa14c3e.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":39149769,"duration_in_seconds":2406}]},{"id":"9649e13f-894a-4c2a-8f2c-353d142f85cd","title":"Ep178: Mastering AI for Marketing Success with Daniel Spence","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/178","content_text":"In this episode of the Book More Show, we welcome automation expert Daniel Spence, who shares his journey from managing e-commerce operations to mastering AI-driven lead generation. \n\nDaniel reveals how tools like ChatGPT helped him shift from time-consuming, manual processes to a streamlined, automated approach, allowing more time for strategic planning and innovation. His story highlights the importance of balancing what AI can achieve with what businesses truly need, showing how a thoughtful, personalized communication strategy builds stronger client connections.\n\nWe dive into niche marketing within the B2B world, where Daniel discusses how LinkedIn can be a powerful platform for connecting with prospects who already understand their needs. He explains how AI-driven outreach can personalize communications without sacrificing relevance, using iterative processes to refine messaging and ensure it resonates with potential clients. This approach helps maintain the accuracy and appropriateness of automated communications, fostering meaningful engagement despite the high volume of outreach.\n\nDaniel also introduces us to the game-changing potential of personalized AI video technology for client engagement. From sending custom video messages to using AI-generated videos for tasks like abandoned cart reminders, he shares success stories of businesses that have captivated audiences through innovative video approaches. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n I discuss with automation expert Daniel Spence his journey from managing e-commerce stores to mastering AI-driven lead generation, focusing on how AI tools like ChatGPT have allowed him to streamline processes and dedicate more time to strategic innovation.\n We delve into the advantages of niche marketing within the B2B landscape, emphasizing the potential of platforms like LinkedIn for reaching prospects who are already aware of their needs, and how AI can enhance the personalization of outreach efforts.\n The conversation explores how businesses can maintain the accuracy and appropriateness of automated communications through iterative processes, allowing for impactful engagement despite high volumes of messages.\n Daniel shares insights on personalized AI video technology, illustrating how AI-generated videos can revolutionize client engagement by adding a personal touch to automated messages, such as tailored video messages for abandoned cart reminders.\n We discuss the integration of AI into communication strategies to enhance personalization at scale, setting a new standard for authenticity across various industries, and invite listeners to explore resources on automationxaicom for more insights.\n The episode highlights the strategic benefits of leveraging platforms like LinkedIn to find problem-aware individuals and customizing messages based on personal data and current events, while stressing the importance of manual oversight in automated communications.\n We examine the evolution of personalized video messages from generic to highly customized, using AI technology such as voice cloning to integrate client-specific details seamlessly into videos, improving client engagement.\n The discussion covers how businesses can use personalized video marketing strategies to surpass generic communications, providing examples of using videos for abandoned cart reminders and LinkedIn outreach to enhance customer engagement.\n We explore the potential of AI-generated content in personalized outreach, highlighting how AI can target specific audiences and automate transactional layers while maintaining a personal touch in communications.\n Throughout the episode, I emphasize the importance of building intrigue at each stage of communication, encouraging potential clients to engage further, such as by exploring a book or scheduling a call, to build credibility and enhance the effectiveness of sales efforts.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/178\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nDaniel Spence:\nWebsite: AutomationX | \nLinkedIn: Daniel Spence:\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
In this episode of the Book More Show, we welcome automation expert Daniel Spence, who shares his journey from managing e-commerce operations to mastering AI-driven lead generation.
\n\nDaniel reveals how tools like ChatGPT helped him shift from time-consuming, manual processes to a streamlined, automated approach, allowing more time for strategic planning and innovation. His story highlights the importance of balancing what AI can achieve with what businesses truly need, showing how a thoughtful, personalized communication strategy builds stronger client connections.
\n\nWe dive into niche marketing within the B2B world, where Daniel discusses how LinkedIn can be a powerful platform for connecting with prospects who already understand their needs. He explains how AI-driven outreach can personalize communications without sacrificing relevance, using iterative processes to refine messaging and ensure it resonates with potential clients. This approach helps maintain the accuracy and appropriateness of automated communications, fostering meaningful engagement despite the high volume of outreach.
\n\nDaniel also introduces us to the game-changing potential of personalized AI video technology for client engagement. From sending custom video messages to using AI-generated videos for tasks like abandoned cart reminders, he shares success stories of businesses that have captivated audiences through innovative video approaches.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/178
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Daniel Spence:
\nWebsite: AutomationX |
\nLinkedIn: Daniel Spence:
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"In this episode of the Book More Show, we welcome automation expert Daniel Spence, who shares his journey from managing e-commerce operations to mastering AI-driven lead generation. \r\n\r\nDaniel reveals how tools like ChatGPT helped him shift from time-consuming, manual processes to a streamlined, automated approach, allowing more time for strategic planning and innovation. His story highlights the importance of balancing what AI can achieve with what businesses truly need, showing how a thoughtful, personalized communication strategy builds stronger client connections.\r\n\r\nWe dive into niche marketing within the B2B world, where Daniel discusses how LinkedIn can be a powerful platform for connecting with prospects who already understand their needs. He explains how AI-driven outreach can personalize communications without sacrificing relevance, using iterative processes to refine messaging and ensure it resonates with potential clients. This approach helps maintain the accuracy and appropriateness of automated communications, fostering meaningful engagement despite the high volume of outreach.\r\n\r\nDaniel also introduces us to the game-changing potential of personalized AI video technology for client engagement. From sending custom video messages to using AI-generated videos for tasks like abandoned cart reminders, he shares success stories of businesses that have captivated audiences through innovative video approaches. \r\n\r\n","date_published":"2024-10-26T08:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/9649e13f-894a-4c2a-8f2c-353d142f85cd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":43752354,"duration_in_seconds":2694}]},{"id":"8793f4f9-3646-4b2f-a303-4b03b6bcf0e2","title":"Ep177: Intentional Business Growth with Jim Vaselopulos ","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/177","content_text":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I chat with Jim Vaselopulos, a seasoned business advisor and executive coach whose career path highlights the power of purposeful transformation. \n\nJim’s journey, from engineering to entrepreneurship and ultimately to coaching, illustrates how each step can build toward discovering true passion. A casual suggestion led him to consider coaching seriously, and he shares how this shift allowed him to find fulfillment in helping others clarify their goals and navigate their careers with intention.\n\nWriting plays a central role in Jim’s approach, serving as a tool to sharpen ideas and communicate effectively. We discuss the discipline required to distill complex thoughts into clear messages in business presentations or book writing. Jim emphasizes the power of storytelling to demystify challenging concepts and connect with readers on a deeper level, underscoring the value of structured thinking for enhancing communication across multiple platforms.\n\nJim also highlights the importance of aligning business values with client attraction. He views a well-crafted book as more than a marketing tool—a bridge connecting businesses with like-minded individuals. Through individualized coaching, Jim creates strategies supporting business growth while providing the external perspective needed to recognize new opportunities. \n\nAs we wrap up, we reflect on Jim’s insights into intentional career paths, and I look forward to more inspiring conversations ahead.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n I discuss the career journey of Jim Vaselopulos, highlighting his transition from engineering to entrepreneurship and eventually to his passion for coaching.\n Jim emphasizes the importance of intentionality in career choices, reflecting on how a casual suggestion led him to pursue coaching full-time.\n We explore the transformative power of writing, with Jim explaining how it can clarify thoughts and enhance communication in business.\n Jim shares insights on storytelling, demonstrating how relatable narratives can simplify complex business concepts and foster connections with readers.\n The discussion highlights the significance of aligning business values with client attraction, using a book as a tool to create authentic connections.\n Jim talks about individualized coaching strategies, emphasizing the need for bespoke solutions tailored to each client's unique situation.\n I reflect on the benefits of having an external perspective in business, which can help in recognizing patterns and opportunities free from biases.\n Jim discusses the role of intentionality in business growth, detailing how clear decision-making leads to fulfilling and purpose-driven careers.\n We touch on the idea of coaching as a means to enhance performance, similar to how athletes use coaches to improve their skills.\n In closing, I express gratitude for Jim's insights and look forward to future collaborations, providing links for further exploration in the show notes.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/177\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nJim Vaselopulos:\nWebsite: Rafti Advisors | \nLinkedIn: Jim Vaselopulos:\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
In this episode of the Book More Show, I chat with Jim Vaselopulos, a seasoned business advisor and executive coach whose career path highlights the power of purposeful transformation.
\n\nJim’s journey, from engineering to entrepreneurship and ultimately to coaching, illustrates how each step can build toward discovering true passion. A casual suggestion led him to consider coaching seriously, and he shares how this shift allowed him to find fulfillment in helping others clarify their goals and navigate their careers with intention.
\n\nWriting plays a central role in Jim’s approach, serving as a tool to sharpen ideas and communicate effectively. We discuss the discipline required to distill complex thoughts into clear messages in business presentations or book writing. Jim emphasizes the power of storytelling to demystify challenging concepts and connect with readers on a deeper level, underscoring the value of structured thinking for enhancing communication across multiple platforms.
\n\nJim also highlights the importance of aligning business values with client attraction. He views a well-crafted book as more than a marketing tool—a bridge connecting businesses with like-minded individuals. Through individualized coaching, Jim creates strategies supporting business growth while providing the external perspective needed to recognize new opportunities.
\n\nAs we wrap up, we reflect on Jim’s insights into intentional career paths, and I look forward to more inspiring conversations ahead.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/177
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Jim Vaselopulos:
\nWebsite: Rafti Advisors |
\nLinkedIn: Jim Vaselopulos:
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"\r\nIn this episode of the Book More Show, I chat with Jim Vaselopulos, a seasoned business advisor and executive coach whose career path highlights the power of purposeful transformation. \r\n\r\nJim’s journey, from engineering to entrepreneurship and ultimately to coaching, illustrates how each step can build toward discovering true passion. A casual suggestion led him to consider coaching seriously, and he shares how this shift allowed him to find fulfillment in helping others clarify their goals and navigate their careers with intention.\r\n\r\nWriting plays a central role in Jim’s approach, serving as a tool to sharpen ideas and communicate effectively. We discuss the discipline required to distill complex thoughts into clear messages in business presentations or book writing. Jim emphasizes the power of storytelling to demystify challenging concepts and connect with readers on a deeper level, underscoring the value of structured thinking for enhancing communication across multiple platforms.\r\n\r\nJim also highlights the importance of aligning business values with client attraction. He views a well-crafted book as more than a marketing tool—a bridge connecting businesses with like-minded individuals. Through individualized coaching, Jim creates strategies supporting business growth while providing the external perspective needed to recognize new opportunities. \r\n\r\nAs we wrap up, we reflect on Jim’s insights into intentional career paths, and I look forward to more inspiring conversations ahead.\r\n","date_published":"2024-10-12T12:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/8793f4f9-3646-4b2f-a303-4b03b6bcf0e2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38408451,"duration_in_seconds":2400}]},{"id":"9dce9cb6-7f75-4c6e-9db3-13b660bf2a87","title":"Ep176: Creating Meaningful Relationships with Reuben Swartz","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/176","content_text":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with Reuben Schwartz, a computer science expert turned sales and marketing consultant, as he shares his journey from working with Fortune 500 companies to building tools tailored for independent consultants. \n\nReuben opens up about his struggles with traditional sales and how they led him to design a CRM system that feels more like a relationship-building tool than a sales task. Through Reuben’s experience, we explore the value of genuine connections over typical sales tactics and how this shift can make sales feel less daunting and more authentic.\n\nWe dive into strategies for creating clear, targeted messaging that aligns with business goals. Reuben emphasizes the importance of defining your target audience to avoid the noise of vague communication, helping small business owners focus on meaningful conversations with the right clients. We also tackle the common “fear of missing out” that plagues many entrepreneurs, highlighting how a specific focus can enhance productivity and satisfaction.\n\nFrom an introvert’s perspective, Reuben shares practical tips for networking and relationship-building, mainly how to transform significant, overwhelming events into opportunities for authentic connection. We also discuss maintaining relationships beyond events and leveraging tools to facilitate meaningful interactions without feeling overly mechanized. \n\nWrapping up, we explore balancing automation with personal touchpoints in lead generation and client communication, with Ruben’s advice on structured documentation and personal reflection as tools for deepening client relationships and refining your approach.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n In the episode, I discuss with Reuben Schwartz his transition from a computer science background to developing sales and marketing tools that focus on building genuine business relationships.\n Reuben shares his personal journey of creating a CRM tailored for solo consultants, aimed at making sales and marketing feel less like a chore and more like an extension of relationship-building efforts.\n We explore the contrast between automation-driven businesses and those that prioritize relationship-building, emphasizing the importance of clear messaging and defining a target audience.\n The conversation highlights the significance of engaging with the right clients to foster meaningful business interactions and overcome the fear of missing out.\n Reuben provides insights into networking from an introvert's perspective, suggesting ways to turn large gatherings into opportunities for authentic connections.\n We discuss the importance of maintaining relationships beyond events, using tools to facilitate genuine interactions without feeling like part of an industrial sales process.\n Reuben introduces the Memorand app, which aids in identifying and engaging with ideal clients, and simplifies the process of maintaining meaningful connections.\n We address the challenge of balancing automation with personal touchpoints in lead generation strategies, emphasizing structured documentation and personal reflection.\n The episode underscores the importance of personal connections over transactional interactions and offers strategies for effective client communication.\n Finally, we explore the concept of conversational conversions, encouraging the use of tools to facilitate organic interactions and avoid the stress associated with traditional sales methods.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/176\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nReuben Swartz:\nWebsite: Mimiran | \nLinkedIn: Reuben Swartz:\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with Reuben Schwartz, a computer science expert turned sales and marketing consultant, as he shares his journey from working with Fortune 500 companies to building tools tailored for independent consultants.
\n\nReuben opens up about his struggles with traditional sales and how they led him to design a CRM system that feels more like a relationship-building tool than a sales task. Through Reuben’s experience, we explore the value of genuine connections over typical sales tactics and how this shift can make sales feel less daunting and more authentic.
\n\nWe dive into strategies for creating clear, targeted messaging that aligns with business goals. Reuben emphasizes the importance of defining your target audience to avoid the noise of vague communication, helping small business owners focus on meaningful conversations with the right clients. We also tackle the common “fear of missing out” that plagues many entrepreneurs, highlighting how a specific focus can enhance productivity and satisfaction.
\n\nFrom an introvert’s perspective, Reuben shares practical tips for networking and relationship-building, mainly how to transform significant, overwhelming events into opportunities for authentic connection. We also discuss maintaining relationships beyond events and leveraging tools to facilitate meaningful interactions without feeling overly mechanized.
\n\nWrapping up, we explore balancing automation with personal touchpoints in lead generation and client communication, with Ruben’s advice on structured documentation and personal reflection as tools for deepening client relationships and refining your approach.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/176
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Reuben Swartz:
\nWebsite: Mimiran |
\nLinkedIn: Reuben Swartz:
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with Reuben Schwartz, a computer science expert turned sales and marketing consultant, as he shares his journey from working with Fortune 500 companies to building tools tailored for independent consultants. \r\n\r\nReuben opens up about his struggles with traditional sales and how they led him to design a CRM system that feels more like a relationship-building tool than a sales task. Through Reuben’s experience, we explore the value of genuine connections over typical sales tactics and how this shift can make sales feel less daunting and more authentic.\r\n\r\nWe dive into strategies for creating clear, targeted messaging that aligns with business goals. Reuben emphasizes the importance of defining your target audience to avoid the noise of vague communication, helping small business owners focus on meaningful conversations with the right clients. We also tackle the common “fear of missing out” that plagues many entrepreneurs, highlighting how a specific focus can enhance productivity and satisfaction.\r\n\r\nFrom an introvert’s perspective, Reuben shares practical tips for networking and relationship-building, mainly how to transform significant, overwhelming events into opportunities for authentic connection. We also discuss maintaining relationships beyond events and leveraging tools to facilitate meaningful interactions without feeling overly mechanized. \r\n\r\nWrapping up, we explore balancing automation with personal touchpoints in lead generation and client communication, with Ruben’s advice on structured documentation and personal reflection as tools for deepening client relationships and refining your approach.","date_published":"2024-10-06T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/9dce9cb6-7f75-4c6e-9db3-13b660bf2a87.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37208908,"duration_in_seconds":2325}]},{"id":"6fd6b8e5-33a4-40b1-abdd-c24563c4fed8","title":"Ep175: Mastering Estate Planning with Matt Ferri","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/175","content_text":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with estate planning attorney Matt Ferry to discuss how he strategically uses an easy-to-understand book to transform client relationships and position himself as an expert in his field. \n\nMatt shares his journey from a small law firm to establishing his successful practice focused on estate planning and elder law. He explains how writing a concise book helped initiate important client conversations, simplify complex topics, and build credibility. \n\nWe delve into the motivations for creating an educational book in the financial industry and how narrowing broad subjects can target specific markets. \n\nMatt discusses using storytelling to make complex concepts relatable and leveraging constraints to provide the right level of information. He also offers practical examples of how marketing the book in different formats, such as webinars and podcasts, can empower professionals to effectively nurture client engagement. \n\nAs client meetings evolve post-COVID, Matt provides valuable insights. He highlights the importance of embracing technology and subtleties like reducing anxiety through guidance. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n In this episode, Matt Ferry, an estate planning attorney from Michigan, shares his journey from working at a small law firm to establishing his own practice specializing in estate planning and elder law since 2010.\n Matt discusses the creation of his book, which serves as a cornerstone for client education by simplifying complex estate planning topics and initiating important conversations.\n We explore the strategic motivations behind writing a book within the financial industry, including targeting specific markets and using storytelling to make educational content more relatable.\n Matt explains how creating user-friendly materials can engage clients and build lasting relationships, emphasizing the importance of beneficial constraints in delivering the right information at the right time.\n We delve into how Matt leverages his book to build credibility, nurture client relationships, and serve as a versatile tool in his marketing efforts, including distribution through referral partners and workshops.\n Matt highlights the value of using physical books during initial meetings to add credibility and streamline the path to client acquisition, noting how referencing the book can build trust.\n We discuss the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on client engagement, noting the shift to digital tools and the increased tech-savviness of older generations.\n Matt shares insights into reducing customer anxiety and strategically guiding clients through their journey, using the book to offer additional content and small actionable steps.\n We touch on the unexpected revelations that come from creating a manuscript, including the challenge of stepping back from technical details to share a broader story.\n The episode concludes with a discussion on the value of community and referrals, particularly within professional networks, and provides resources for further connection.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/175\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nMatthew Ferri:\nWebsite: Life Focus Planning | \nLinkedIn: Matthew Ferri\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with estate planning attorney Matt Ferry to discuss how he strategically uses an easy-to-understand book to transform client relationships and position himself as an expert in his field.
\n\nMatt shares his journey from a small law firm to establishing his successful practice focused on estate planning and elder law. He explains how writing a concise book helped initiate important client conversations, simplify complex topics, and build credibility.
\n\nWe delve into the motivations for creating an educational book in the financial industry and how narrowing broad subjects can target specific markets.
\n\nMatt discusses using storytelling to make complex concepts relatable and leveraging constraints to provide the right level of information. He also offers practical examples of how marketing the book in different formats, such as webinars and podcasts, can empower professionals to effectively nurture client engagement.
\n\nAs client meetings evolve post-COVID, Matt provides valuable insights. He highlights the importance of embracing technology and subtleties like reducing anxiety through guidance.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/175
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Matthew Ferri:
\nWebsite: Life Focus Planning |
\nLinkedIn: Matthew Ferri
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with estate planning attorney Matt Ferry to discuss how he strategically uses an easy-to-understand book to transform client relationships and position himself as an expert in his field. \r\n\r\nMatt shares his journey from a small law firm to establishing his successful practice focused on estate planning and elder law. He explains how writing a concise book helped initiate important client conversations, simplify complex topics, and build credibility. \r\n\r\nWe delve into the motivations for creating an educational book in the financial industry and how narrowing broad subjects can target specific markets. \r\n\r\nMatt discusses using storytelling to make complex concepts relatable and leveraging constraints to provide the right level of information. He also offers practical examples of how marketing the book in different formats, such as webinars and podcasts, can empower professionals to effectively nurture client engagement. \r\n\r\nAs client meetings evolve post-COVID, Matt provides valuable insights. He highlights the importance of embracing technology and subtleties like reducing anxiety through guidance. ","date_published":"2024-09-23T07:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/6fd6b8e5-33a4-40b1-abdd-c24563c4fed8.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":49250165,"duration_in_seconds":3037}]},{"id":"7109de4e-6415-45e1-aa45-8b2d439f67df","title":"Ep174: Getting in the Press with Luke Hessler","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/174","content_text":"Today, on the Book More Show, I sat and discussed strategy with Luke Hessler of Ace Branding. \n\nLuke explained how his firm helps thought leaders and businesses enhance visibility through strategic media placements and digital integration. He emphasized capturing attention on digital devices and establishing consistency across online platforms. \n\nHe underscored the shift from novelty websites to comprehensive digital footprints and how embracing technology allows small enterprises to thrive. He also shed light on perceived credibility cycles and initial online impressions, underscoring how authoring books boosts reputation. \n\nLastly, Luke highlighted the importance of building long-term brand relationships over short-term gains. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n In the episode, Luke Hessler from Ace Branding discusses the importance of digital PR and online reputation management for thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and businesses.\n Luke elaborates on the shift from traditional to digital marketing and PR, emphasizing the need to capture audience attention on digital devices.\n The conversation highlights the advantages of integrating traditional media appearances, such as TV and podcasts, with digital strategies to maximize visibility and credibility.\n We explore the necessity of maintaining a consistent brand across all channels to build credibility and authenticity, illustrated by personal anecdotes from Luke.\n Luke explains the perceived credibility cycle, outlining the steps from perceived credibility to achieving tangible results, and how being an author can enhance one's credibility.\n The discussion underscores the long-term value of brand relationships over short-term marketing tactics, inspired by insights from Gary Vaynerchuk's \"Day Trading Attention.\"\n We delve into the importance of building a robust online presence and overcoming the intimidation of technology, with examples such as Luke's parents' transition to a digital business model.\n Luke emphasizes the role of first impressions in the digital world and how online perception can impact real-life buying decisions.\n The episode offers practical advice on starting the journey in media placements and brand building, stressing the importance of taking the first step now.\n We discuss the process for those interested in working with Ace Branding, starting with a no-commitment discovery call and creating a tailored PR plan.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/174\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nLuke Hessler:\nWebsite: Ace Branding | \nLinkedIn: Luke Hessler\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n ","content_html":"
Today, on the Book More Show, I sat and discussed strategy with Luke Hessler of Ace Branding.
\n\nLuke explained how his firm helps thought leaders and businesses enhance visibility through strategic media placements and digital integration. He emphasized capturing attention on digital devices and establishing consistency across online platforms.
\n\nHe underscored the shift from novelty websites to comprehensive digital footprints and how embracing technology allows small enterprises to thrive. He also shed light on perceived credibility cycles and initial online impressions, underscoring how authoring books boosts reputation.
\n\nLastly, Luke highlighted the importance of building long-term brand relationships over short-term gains.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\n\n\n
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/174
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Luke Hessler:
\nWebsite: Ace Branding |
\nLinkedIn: Luke Hessler
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
","summary":"\r\nToday, on the Book More Show, I sat and discussed strategy with Luke Hessler of Ace Branding. \r\n\r\nLuke explained how his firm helps thought leaders and businesses enhance visibility through strategic media placements and digital integration. He emphasized capturing attention on digital devices and establishing consistency across online platforms. \r\n\r\nHe underscored the shift from novelty websites to comprehensive digital footprints and how embracing technology allows small enterprises to thrive. He also shed light on perceived credibility cycles and initial online impressions, underscoring how authoring books boosts reputation. \r\n\r\nLastly, Luke highlighted the importance of building long-term brand relationships over short-term gains. ","date_published":"2024-09-08T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/7109de4e-6415-45e1-aa45-8b2d439f67df.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":46062528,"duration_in_seconds":2878}]},{"id":"9adb561b-84a6-4d3d-935a-d0d936decf06","title":"Ep173: Building Brand and Authority with Lee Ramey","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/173","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday, on the Book More Show, I learned valuable business-building strategies from Lee Ramey's experience when He transformed his cleaning company into a leading mold remediation service. \n\nHe discusses his journey of self-education in the 1980s to become an expert and how overcoming challenges like influencing industry categories helped establish authority. \n\nWe discuss educational materials and how they can empower consumers and validate health concerns, highlighting Lee's commitment to being education-focused rather than sales-driven. \n\nWe, also, touched on his insights on book publishing, from writing and design to creative marketing tactics, and provided a framework for leveraging expertise through informative content. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n I explore the journey of Lee Ramey, who began a cleaning business in 1984 and evolved it into a leading mold remediation service through self-education and industry involvement.\n Lee shares his experience in getting the Yellow Pages to recognize mold removal as a legitimate category, showcasing his dedication to industry standards.\n We discuss the importance of educational tools like books and consumer guides in empowering individuals, especially women, to connect health symptoms with indoor environmental issues.\n Lee talks about the technical challenges and value of writing and publishing a book, highlighting its impact on perceived authority and trustworthiness.\n We delve into the effectiveness of digital versus printed study materials, emphasizing accessibility, convenience, and the need for updating content to stay relevant.\n The episode covers the strategy of charging a fee for mold inspections to filter serious clients and the value of providing comprehensive, fact-based reports.\n We explore creative and guerrilla marketing tactics for promoting a book, including the use of vehicle wraps, QR codes, and strategic placement of promotional materials.\n Lee discusses the benefits of using speaking engagements and books for business growth and client relationship building, including presenting books in protective sleeves to enhance perceived value.\n We emphasize the importance of leveraging expertise and experience to engage customers and start meaningful conversations, ensuring resources are actively utilized.\n Lee shares plans for future projects, including a new book focused on humidity problems for lake owners, underscoring the ongoing value of educational content in business.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/173\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nLee Ramey:\nWebsite: Mold and Mildew Solutions LLC | \nLinkedIn: Lee Ramey\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n \n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today joined by Lee Ramey Lee. How's? \n\nLee: it going. Oh, excellent, thank you. Thank you for having me on Pleasure. \n\nStuart: I'm actually excited for this because I kind of start every episode with a bit of context of how I know the person. And we started off doing episodes just internally and it was often me and Dean or me and Betsy. And then we've done a large number of of author interviews, which is what this is with people who we've worked with. And then we've done a few kind of other companies who who just have a very complementary way of doing business, which have been a few of the recent ones, but with the author ones, I think, just the way that we invite people, we tend to invite people as they're getting towards the end of the process and then we're not good enough at remembering to invite people from a few years ago where they've really got this experience. \n\nSo this is what we're talking about today, because you wrote your book a couple of years ago and the way that you're using it is really um, I think this will give a lot of inspiration to other people in the way that they can use it. So we'll get get to all that. But let's start with a bit of context. So why don't you share with everyone kind of what it is that you do in the organization and then we can jump off from there. \n\nLee: I started a cleaning business, actually June of 84, so 40 years ago this June and I was doing just, you know, janitorial window cleaning, carpet cleaning, things like that. And as people would ask me to do more things, I would have to go find out how to do it. It wasn't the internet then or you couldn't use YouTube University, so I had to go, you know, ask questions and read books, things like that, and I got pretty good at things. But once I found out there was a science behind cleaning, there was a science behind drying something out that just was the light bulb. You know the inner geek in me just, oh, I like this, I like wine. \n\nAnd there was a time period in the late 80s, early 90s, that mold started to be a lot in the news and lawyers were involved and basically nobody in the business really wanted to deal with mold because everybody who touched it got sued. But people kept on asking me you know, we got to do this, got to do this, and it actually was. A church member says we got a problem here and could you please just help us out? You know we're not going to sue you, you know, it just just happens. \n\nAnd so I started searching around and at that time I had to go all over the United States just little pockets of knowledge knew about respirators, knew about filters, knew about mycology, you knew about, you know using, you know what kind of vacuums and so forth. And a lot of this information was a little bit like the asbestos business and there was used some of the same protocols. So such one of the smart ones. But I happened to be lucky enough that I was being taught by the same people who was, uh, writing the books, writing the standards setting you know in the forefront of doing it right. \n\nSo, um, as they were writing the books, they had called me up and say hey, we don't know whether this, that a works or b works. Try one room this way and one try this way. You know, give me some interesting. \n\nStuart: Yeah, so it was really at the kind of, as they were setting the standards and the best practices, you were really involved in that kind of I don't want to say trial and error, but the oh that's beginning to be right. \n\nLee: That's such an interesting. \n\nStuart: Right, it's such an interesting place to be because you kind of put yourself in that conversation that's going on with the people who are setting those standards. So again, that doesn't that opportunity doesn't come up for everyone, but it must have been a really interesting time in the market to kind of be involved at that level it was, and because just my personality, you know not being satisfied with you know, just a surface knowledge. \n\nLee: You know not being satisfied with you know, just a surface knowledge. I kept on wanting to do better and better, and as soon as a class was available I would take it, and so forth. \n\nI spent a lot of time away from you know home. I wish my wife can attest to that. You know conventions, things like that. But as I continued to get better, it came that there was nobody in my market. And then I'm in Birmingham, alabama, nobody in my market that was actually doing it according to the way the books were written, and so I've been in the business so long. I even had to talk the yellow pages into having a category for mold removal, a category for mold inspection. \n\nI bring back a yellow page from Dallas or Atlanta and say look, they got it. Why can't we have one here? \n\nStuart: You know, right, that's so funny. \n\nLee: Yeah, so been in it a bit and it seemed, as I continued to grow I was able to help people, and at that time I was just doing the mold removal. That's called remediation, removing the mold. Well, to do the mold removal correctly, you really need to know beforehand what's the scope of work, what needs to be done. Well, at that time the industry was relying on what's called a CIH, or Certified Industrial Hygienist, because they've been working with the asbestos people, and so they had some protocols. They knew how to do that, but they actually didn't know building science. They and as best as, once you remove it, you know it's gone forever. You remove it, but the environment's still there. It's going to pop up in the same place. So they didn't have a full grasp of what was going on. So then I went back to school again to become an inspector and uh, so that was uh and was that and go ahead? \n\nStuart: was that an existing inspector certification that, like they, they existed, they just weren't really used? Or is this really laying the groundwork for what a mold inspector needs to be, because it was all new territory? \n\nLee: it was all new territory. It was all new territory because the cih is uh, fantastic at what they did. But cih means certified industrial hygienist, so they were used to the industrial setting. You know having to do with hearing and in fall protection and you know safety around. You know safety around. You know big moving machines. That was their niche. But a indoor air quality professional for a residence it wasn't known of, and so we were kind of. I was fortunate enough to be on some of the trade associations that was first started and learned how to not only get the work done but communicate it and how to make sure that we're doing it well and it satisfies the need for the customer and the need for the science. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, actually that's a great point. That's customer understanding of something when you're in an industry that has I guess financial advisors are the same in the sense that there's somewhat complex products that confuse people. So customers have a surface understanding of what they want, but not the details. You guys for sure I mean people see mold or suspect mold, but then they don't know the, the details of remediation or, even more importantly, maybe the the cause of it in the first place. But that education gap or understanding gap, is that more, and it may have changed over time. But is that more educating the customers so they know more about it, so they can make better decisions themselves? Or it's just a familiarity or a feeling that they're in the right place? So they're not at all interested in the details, but they just want the certainty that you know what you're doing. How engaged are the customers? Typically because it's residential rather than commercial uh, you have both, you have. \n\nLee: You have the just bottom line people. How much is it going to cost? Am I going to be able to sell the house? Well, that's a lot of times, you know, that's a lot of times that kind of customer. They just want a certificate saying it's been done so they can get rid of that piece of property or whatever. Then I have quite a few medically very, very sensitive people and they are allergic to everything, probably allergic to their own breath. \n\nI mean, you're just scared out of their mind about everything. So a lot of it was, you know, talking to men off the ledge. Yes, mold can be an issue, them in off the ledge. Yes, mold Mold can be an issue. But God made mold. It's everywhere. It's going to be outside. It's going to be dissolving things. God meant it to be. \n\nWe just don't want too much inside our house and we don't want any of the bad kind. They're just saying it plain and simple that takes care of 95% of all the population, actually 97% of all the population. Now there is a sensitive group and the backstory is my mom got really, really sick. We lived in a moldy house, so I saw the result of us being in a moldy house and so indoor air quality always kind of had a in the back of my mind, a very part of my psyche, Right Personal connection to it, Right, Right. And so, to answer your question, for those who just want to know that you know what you're doing, and then just, you know, just flashing it or just saying you have it, you know. However, I have had customers who come back and text me back. You know five or six. On page seven you said this 49. \n\nStuart: Well, that's fine. \n\nLee: I know that they're engaged and most of the time they become my best, best, uh, cheerleaders, because they they have. They feel like they're validated in all the research they've done right. \n\nStuart: Actually that's such a great point, that idea that it gives people. So we're talking in case people are just listening we're talking about using the book as the tool and people are engaging with that at various levels. But it's something that I don't think has come up in in the podcast that we've talked about before this idea that it gives the receiver of the book a validation of their concerns or approach or desires, because someone has written something that resonates with them and it backs up either a thought process that they've been trying to share with a family member or even a peace of mind that they're in the right space. \n\nLee: That kind of buy-in right, because a lot of times it will only be one in the family, or maybe the wife and a kid, that that's. That's kind of the scenario. \n\nThe husband I'm not saying anything bad about men, but they sometimes are oblivious to the home environment and so they say, well, I don't smell anything, you know well, I mean, the kids are going to get sick, they go to school and all that. And the wife says I have, I have this when I walked to this part of the house. Or remember, we go to this vacation spot and after two days I feel great. \n\nAs soon as I get home within a few hours I start feeling lousy again. So the females are much better at connecting the dots between the way they feel or the way they observe their family to something having to do with the house, and they may not know what. And so mold is kind of the first thing they think of most of the time. And I will say at this juncture I can go into it later more if you want but as a certified industrial excuse me, certified indoor environmentalist there's about seven or eight major things that I take care of, including asbestos and radon and lead paint and bed bugs and VOCs and radon things. There's all different kinds of things in your house that can make you sick, but mold is that first thing they think of. \n\nAnd because it's a complicated subject and it's got a lot of moving pieces, I found myself just spending hours and hours on the phone just answering the same questions over and over. And that's why I started back in and I'll tell you it was the spring of 2002 because I'd had an accident and I was bedridden for about five months. I was in a wheelchair for five months. So as my kids were running the business, I was sort of making these consumer advisories and they were, you know, 12, 13 pages long on different subjects, but mold seemed to be the one they really wanted to learn more about, and so that became the nexus of answering a lot of the basic questions. So it would save me time in that Right. So in a way it is kind of selfish in the first. \n\nStuart: Right and serving the community that's there, trying to give them as much helpful information as possible in the most efficient way as possible. I think all of us who are listening are within the business because we've got a passion for it to some degree and we really want to share the message. So this idea that having the time and the foresight to capture the questions and then feed that back to people, it's just, it's serving the market that's there and knowing that that then leads to business further down the track because you are establishing yourself as the experts. It can seem there is the option of thinking about it in a selfish way, but it's really just. Sharing that information is the least selfish thing around. It's trying to help everyone in a way that makes the most sense. So in 2002, we've got the Consumer Reports coming together. \n\nYou were saying the carpet cleaning type background, so I'm guessing that's where the Toronto marketing and Joe Polish's worldishes world comes into it yeah, I was the father of brother joe, polish for right and those early I mean again, we've both got enough gray hair, that um, that we've been around the environment for a long time those early consumer guides or reports, or room by room review or the carpet audits. \n\nThat joe would do all of these things to kind of move the not quite esoteric knowledge but move the kind of the conversational knowledge and the the experience based reckons on on what the answer is to something that's a little bit more formulated and and official looking. So whether it's together in a report or a book, whether you've got a room-by-room review or the carpet review, which are some techniques that they've talked about in the past, but all of it goes to establishing this authority and building some rapport with people. So, before the books were around, did you find that you were getting people feeling back? Or the conversations that you had were referring to these guides that you'd created to people and the conversations that they helped start? \n\nLee: Yes, and that's a great question because I try to look forward. But you have to get feedback from the past to know which way you want to go, and so I knew I didn't want it to be salesy. I wanted to be educational and we call ourselves an education-based company Because a lot of people hear the word mold and get scared and that there's there's, get panicky and even with and say we're talking about upholstery or carpet cleaning. A lot of people really did appreciate the fact that here's a guideline if you got blood and you go, you use this. If you got, you know, crayon, you try this you, before you call us, maybe you don't need us, right? \n\nYeah, that was, uh, something that I really uh got the most feedback on it the fact that people would say, well, you know, thank goodness, you're not going to charge me $100 and do five minutes that I could have done. If I just know Now that if you were a short-term thinker and you were transaction-based only, you'd say, well, I don't want my guys, I don't want my people, you know, doing their own stuff. But the relationship was far better, you know, when they're doing their job playing bridge, whatever, bowling, whatever if the subject comes up. We're the. We're the ones they want to recommend. \n\nStuart: Yeah that idea that you become their guy. That goes to person because you've started by being helpful first and the the small amount of transactions that you would get from those low value jobs versus the goodwill and all the larger jobs that you get. Because, okay, I low value jobs versus the goodwill and all of the larger jobs that you get. Because, okay, I can do these steps as myself, but this job is too big. Or today I can do these steps myself, but tomorrow the same thing happens, but I'm out of town, or it's a rental property that needs to be done immediately. Or there's lots of reasons why, once you've kind of claimed that space in their head is the, the, the helpful go-to person that fills the spot much more opportunity to write a bigger piece of the pie down the track so a term we use a lot in our, in our safety and sales meetings. \n\nWe want to be their trusted advisor right, yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of people use that term as a kind of a throwaway term and they kind of put it out there, thinking that if I say enough, people will believe me, but they're not actually fulfilling that role. Everything is a little bit more transactional, but it's overused sometimes. What that really means, as it really establishes a relationship so much stronger and and evidence, is that you're the trusted advisor, not just you're trying to tell people you're their trusted advisor. It's a, it's a slight mind shift change. But and it goes into this abundance type a lot of our clients are strategic coach clients and strategic coach has this very big emphasis on an abundance and a multiplier type mentality rather than a scarcity and a lock and in type mentality. So it ties in so well with a much better approach to doing things. \n\nLet's move forward. We've got 2002. We've got some guides. There's some good feedback coming from that. Where do we start thinking about bringing that together in a book? Because I know the first book was before we had a relationship. You were bringing some pieces together for that was it a? Was it a relatively quick transition in the thought and then it took a while to execute, or did you think about writing a book and then immediately started bringing it together? How long did it take to percolate? \n\nLee: oh, I, if I'd had a, if I, if I could have done it over, I would have come to you first. It was a slog, it was a tough slog to get through. Um, so my, my books I tried to keep. I tried to keep most of the small little subjects that because of printing. My dad was a printer so I learned a few little tricks and we had we did our own printing actually here in in shop. Oh wait, uh. \n\nSo we tried to keep them at either 16 or 32 pages and after 32 pages I really wasn't telling enough and I really didn't want to, and so I started saying, well, I guess then I got, I need to either do an A and a B you know you know two or you know a continuing series, whatever you call it. But then, because I did, I've always listened to marketing ideas and so forth and they talked about a book and that resonated with me because there's some kind of aura. Maybe not as much now, but there was always kind of an aura If you had the ability and time to write a book. \n\nIt just seemed that people put you up just a little higher in their estimation a little bit, and so everything I was doing was not a perfect bound or you know as I like them now, and they were either spiral bound or stapled together, things of that nature. But when I decided to do a book, then I had plenty of information Right and I'm an early riser. Unfortunately, I wake up at 3.30, you know, by, by 3.30. \n\nSo I would spend an hour or so most mornings and it took me about nine months or so to put the information down and then categorize it into chapters and so forth, and then it took me probably another year to pull the pictures. And you know and I'm not it wasn't a really simple book, it was because mold can go deep. It had you know the chapters on, you know the chapters on. You know what do you need to do, what can you do? When do you need a professional? Uh, what about contents? What if it's in the crawl space? You know, you know each of those, and but I had of the scientific data, I had the indices in the back, which then I had the footnotes to come back to, which is a little more complicated. \n\nSo you know, I really applaud Betsy and Kim for all the hard work they did getting that done, because we'd have it all set up and then we'd move a paragraph and we'd lose the link Something would change yeah. \n\nSomething would change or do this, and all of a sudden the picture's way out here. So, but I got through with the whole thing. I put it on Amazon. To be honest, I, I don't, it never did, and I was a hundred percent correct. I never did sell a lot on Amazon, right? However, just being able to say I sell it on Amazon for 1295, but here is, here is your copy, that has more emotional impact. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's so. You're talking there about the kind of heat and light and and authority for one of a better term that comes from being having the book on the subject. I always I mean there's so many examples now we've we've worked with over a thousand people, but the example always brings to mind is a podcast that you might have listened to that I've recorded last year with paul ross, who's a podiatrist, and he tells the story of. He's got three or four books on several different conditions and the latest one was called my Damn Toe Hurts, and it's for whatever the condition is that makes your toe hurts, but he tells the story of a guy coming in I don't know if it was a guy or a girl, but a patient coming in and being sat in the chair, and this was a new patient. There was no kind of real connection with them and halfway through the the process they were saying oh, I've just realized, you're paul, you're the person who wrote the book, and there was this kind of elevation in the the experience because he'd written the book. \n\nI often say that exactly the same words on a website or on a youtube video don't have the same impact as the fact that we print them on and glue them together on dead trees. It must be the the dead trees in the paper and the dead cows in the glue. There's something about that combination that makes it appealable to or appealing to people. But there is definitely something about that and our approach is. I mean, we're pretty adamant the difference between a traditional book and a conversation starting book, and we're in the conversation starting book world because the traditional book world is expensive and there's a lot of effort put into it. That doesn't get the returns for us as real business owners, but one of the things that we definitely do get is the fact that it is a book. We call it a book. It looks like a book, it's printed as a book, even if people are using the digital versions. We tell people to refer to it as a digital version of the book and not an e-book, because that is irrelevant and unnecessarily devalues it. \n\nLee: I didn't know that I learned something. Thank you. \n\nStuart: Okay, yeah, so there you go. So when you say to someone, when you say to someone on the, when you say to a customer, I'll send you a digital version of my book, or you say to the next customer, I'll send you my ebook, what you're sending them is the exact same thing. But even just talking about it now, you can imagine the perception on the other end. Someone receiving the digital copy of the book oh, that's great. Someone receiving an ebook like an ebook is a pdf I can download off the internet. Why is that valuable? So just those little psychological things that reinforce that. \n\nNot that we're doing this purely for authority, but if there's authority there to be taken, we should make the most of it. \n\nIt's another reason where I'm not sure. \n\nSo the later ones that you did with us versus the earlier ones, the the ones that the digital versions that we send out are laid out exactly as the book is. \n\nSo there's left and right page pagination and whereas there's a blank page in the book, there's a blank page in the digital version. Again, when you think about the use case, having a blank page on a digital version is pretty irrelevant. But the reason that we do it is because we're trying to keep this, this, uh, this perception going that it's a digital version of the book and because it is, because we're trying to keep this, this, uh, this perception going that it's a digital version of the book and because it is a published book, that has more authority, so anyway, all of these things that kind of amplified. The point that you mentioned is that out in the world there is a enhanced credibility and authority and and heat and light that goes along with having a published book. We know behind the scenes that that's easier to do now than it was 30 years ago, but still it has that, has that element to it, and I can I ask you a question? \n\nLee: I'm going to interview you for a second yeah, of course. So, uh, some some documents I may buy are in a flip book format and you know, you hear, you, you, you, you hear the page going over. Is that something that you have tried and recommended? \n\nStuart: so it's funny I was so I'm down in the office in Florida now rather than at home in Pennsylvania just this week and I was meeting yesterday with Betsy and christy and we were running through some of the additions that we want to make to the package and we wrote down on the list those flipbook page turner type things. So when we last looked at it a few years ago, it was problematic. Everyone needed a special app in order to download it. They were typically hosted on a subscription service at the provider and then it was slow and clunky. If people were doing it on a cell phone or an ipad, it just didn't really work very well. So the technology has improved a little bit, but there's still a little bit of a barrier to to doing that, because typically it's not as easy as a PDF, where you send someone an email and it's got a PDF embedded in it or it has a link to a PDF that's on, like Amazon or Dropbox. They can just click on it and it will just immediately open up in the browser. Every other solution is typically either they need to download something or they need to go to a web page and it's got the other websites chrome around it and it's a little bit clunky, so I think we're still generally in the camp of it's not worth it. \n\nThe benefit of keeping to that book framework with a formatted pdf that looks like a book takes the majority of that, but it is something we're looking at to see if there's a tool that does it, because I think the use case there would be to send it out in an email to someone and say hey, thanks for requesting a copy of the book. There's some really great information on it. Particularly if you're in this scenario, check out this section. That is really useful. I've actually included two links for you. One is to the pdf, just the pdf, and then another is to the page turner. So depending on which you prefer some people prefer one or the other just know that it's the same content, so that might be a use case for it. \n\nLee: Yeah, that would be a good A B test to see which one they choose. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think still the majority of the services that do it. Well, it's a subscription service, so there is a cost overhead. One of the other ways of using it might be is if you do in videos and you're talking about the content of the book and you were doing like a screen share, like so you did a behind the scenes, like in the email sequence after someone opted in. If you did a behind the scenes, like a deeper dive on one chapter and you were doing a screen share, I mean it might be worth having a page turner just because maybe it's more visually compelling. But again, that would be a test between is it more visually compelling or is it just unnecessarily distracting. \n\nSo it's definitely interesting and the good thing about all of this conversation the good thing about it is technology continues to move forwards and having created the thing, you've done 90% of the work for whatever technology change there is in the future, like if the whole PDF standard changed and it went away and everyone switched to the MOB or MOBI, like the KDP, the Kindle books, like, imagine that everything suddenly changed to that. Well, you've done all the work. It's just a case of reconfiguring it for the new platform. So it gives so many opportunities once you've got it created, just to keep up with whatever the latest use cases for it. Gotcha, that was a long answer to a short question. \n\nLee: Well, I'm sorry we didn't rehearse that, but that was just really interesting because I'm studying for a test and that's what they provided is for me too Ah okay For my test scores. \n\nStuart: That's interesting then. So your experience of using it if you imagine that you had that flip, had that flip version versus just the PDF version where you would just scroll through in whatever PDF software that you had the experience of you doing it, was it more clunky using that page turner or did it add anything to it and then, from right, didn't add anything to? \n\nLee: it and then, from right, didn't add anything. It did not because what I wanted to do was print a few pages at a time so I could lay in bed and not be in a screen. I was trying to cut down my blue screen time before I go to sleep, but reading, you know, just a few printed out pages would satisfy that. And also, you know, help me do my studying at a flight time. \n\nStuart: And you know I didn't want to be if you drop from sleep as you fall asleep and there's some paper falls on your face, that's one thing, if a ipad falls on your face, that's a different story. \n\nLee: That's right so it did not satisfy what I was actually aiming for, so in it right that context. I only had to do it at my computer, yeah. \n\nStuart: And a lot of reasons people do it as well is this idea of locking stuff down. So a reason that some people or some organizations don't like PDFs is when the PDF is out there, it's out there, you can't do anything or it's very difficult to do anything to restrict it. So sometimes they'll put them in these other platforms. That restricts entry. But then again the use case for that it's a misalignment between the customer experience and what you're trying to do. You're trying to lock this stuff away and you make it additionally inconvenient for the client because they can't open it on every device or they can't print it off when they want to, or they can't. Most most PDF softwares now allow you to highlight and mark up in the document itself. So again, thinking about it from the user's perspective rather than from the company's perspective. Another reason for keeping it simple and and making it as accessible as possible. \n\nLee: Right, yeah, making it as accessible as possible, right, yeah, so I was able to go from. I did. My first book was around 64 pages, and so then is I went. I didn't want to do it in in because I didn't have the equipment. I took it to an outside printer and, uh, had about 200 printed and that lasted me six, seven, eight months, something like that. I was giving them out left and right and that I ordered more. I think I ordered, maybe you know, 1200, you know, over the over the over the years, and every year or so I would update a little bit here and there, change out pictures, as, as I would be explaining things to people, I think of an illustration I says that's what I want to use. \n\nSo I'd go back and tweak one paragraph or I. Would you know if there was a news event or something like that that was more current, then I would try to bring the and plus. I wanted to change the copyright date every year. You know when I did it too, right, okay? Yeah and so I'll see more up to date, exactly, exactly yeah, but um, the uh, the last, the last version that was would call a book, was in 18. I last really did any major tweaking to it in 20 or 21, something like that. \n\nAnd by that time I was so busy during COVID I really didn't have time to do anything else. But then, as things came back a little bit to normal, then I wanted to do a better rewrite and I said, well, I'm going to use, you know, because I always had continued listening to you and your guest. I mean, you have some awesome, very smart guests. I don't know why I'm on here, but you have some wonderful, you have a wide variety. That gives me, you know, expands my universe, right. \n\nStuart: And it's easier. I don't know if you find the same, but I find it's easier to listen to someone else's specific business but think about the principles and then apply them to my own thinking or even apply it to their business, because then you're just thinking about the principles and you're not thinking about the implementation. Because then you're just thinking about the principles and you're not thinking about the implementation, like if every guest was in the remediation business and they were talking about things, a reasonable portion of your brain would be thinking at the details of the actual job of work, the remediation piece, and not the marketing principle piece. So anyway, I'm not sure if you're the same, but I like listening to a broad spectrum because the ideas you can concentrate on the ideas and not get stuck in the weeds of the business itself. \n\nLee: Exactly, Exactly, yeah, and so I really I do appreciate the fact that it it looks. \n\nStuart: I've added, I think it we're up to 160 pages on the new book, right, a lot thicker, and it looks good, feels good, and so you, you can't deny it is a book, right yeah, I think that the way that you did it as well was the perfect way of starting off with something that's manageable and then adding over time based off that real world feedback, because so many. It's like the lean model of get something out there first, or the what's the saying no plan survives contact with the enemy or the mike tyson one if everyone's got a plan until I punch him in the face just a bit more direct. But this idea if you could spend and this is why I yeah, I'm going to try and not go off on a rant because I think I did that one or two shows ago but the whole bestseller marketplace that's out there with people charging tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to write a book under the premise that you'll become a bestseller, and then sit back and people just start knocking on your door. There is definitely a use case for that. But it's the top of the market where creating the Rolls Royce of a book in one go and putting all the eggs in that basket, where that pays off and you get a return on that investment. \n\nThe majority of us, the vast, vast majority, was real world business owners. If we start off with our reckon, first our field, for what's that? What will resonate with the market, but then we add over time not only does it mean that it's likely to get done because it's the scope is more constrained, but if it turns out that we need to pivot, then we haven't kind of sunk everything in one. I mean you were talking about the breadth of your business is pretty broad, but knowing that mold was the first one and starting with that, and you can imagine a scenario where you started with water remediation or air quality or something that didn't quite hit the mark and then the feedback that you get people are always asking about more mold questions. If you just spend 50, $60,000 on the air quality book and years to write it. I mean it's your approach of creating something that starts the conversation and then iterating based on that feedback. It's by far the most successful way of doing it. \n\nLee: Right, and because we do want to be an education-based company, be an education-based company. It is a slow migration toward the rear. I start laying in little hints we can help people with that, give us a call, and so forth and we're probably 30 pages in before I really start putting those hints that, yes, you may have this problem and you can take care of it, but if this is too much to handle, I'm here for you. And so no advert saying you need to call us because we're the best, or anything like that. Don't, we won't, we won't, we won't to set the bar and then let them decide who's reaching that bar or not. Because, yeah, because, in my business there is, there are so many shysters, so many high pressure salesmen. They want to scare you into doing work. Oh, my god, your house is going to be different mode. You need to run, right, you know. \n\nStuart: Burn the house, yeah, yeah whatever like, as, as soon as they start asking questions, it's well, and if I mean, if you want your children to die, then I mean you could not do it. \n\nBut it's like the, uh, the, the, anything to do with babies, the. Not that I've personally experienced in this, but I've heard people say like you go into the, the, um, the stroller, is that a british word or is that an American word? I'm getting confused. Anyway, like the pushchair, the stroller type fails people and they say, well, there's this model and this model which is in the price range that you're thinking about. But for people who really value their child's safety, there's this thousand dollar plus model over here and it's that psychological and I think that's what everyone is super conscious of, even going into it. Like the reason that the husband, to a certain degree kind of, is turning a blind eye to it is because they don't want to make the call and have that salesman saying well, clearly your wife is suffering here, so if you love her, you give me the thousand dollars that I'm asking for right it. \n\nLee: Your ethics over time will always outweigh the cost you have to charge, because I'm not going to be cheap. We're not going to be the cheapest. \n\nStuart: We're going to do things right. \n\nLee: I got $4 million worth of insurance just because I got the word mold in my name. Right? Yeah, and so it's not a cheap business and so and it's a complex with a lot of variables and put pieces of the puzzle and and I like the way one of your previous ones, Tim, starts with a W, but he talked about it being complex and it's not a transaction here I want a hot dog. \n\nIt's not a transaction here, I want a hot dog, it's not that right because a lot of times when I go in and do an inspection I charge for inspection. I do testing and so forth. So people may say, well, people. Some people will say, well, I can get a free, free mold inspection. You know from you this three letter over here and I says, well, are you getting an inspection or are you getting a salesman? You know, because I haven't spent this, you know 30 years of education and can give it away, and because we charge for it. It's the wording I like is SIF, sort and screen. If they are willing to pay my $259 for me just to show up the door and spend an hour and a half to two hours with them, then I know they're serious enough to possibly do work with us. \n\nStuart: Yeah, go ahead, and they know that you're coming in there, you're providing the service for that inspection to give them the best information on what the next step is and if they've come through the book funnel anyway, they already know that you're willing to share and give away the knowledge to put them in the most empowered position to take the next step. Most empowered position to take the next step, but that inspection that is comprehensive and more broad than some of the kind of dash in dash out and it's just a sales opportunity they get. \n\nLee: They get a written report, usually seven to ten pages. You know at the end is the notes and so forth yeah, they get good value for that exactly, and it's part of the process. \n\nStuart: So that's why I really like about the, this idea that we keep reinforcing of the conversational um, the conversation starting book, and that that conversation is broader than just a transaction. So, starting that journey by educating them and helping them understand the questions that are important to them or things they might not realize, or reinforce the things that they know already. And then the next step is we need to elevate this conversation to something that's more fact-based and detailed and it's not just coming in for a reckon and a sales call. It's actually giving you the value and even at that point you still may choose to take that somewhere else. But hey, we're all happy with that because we've brought the conversation along and there's an introduction to the services. There's a value exchange in the value that you give and the cost that's charged for it. I think it's a much more transparent type of relationship. \n\nNow, if you're in a business where you're able to do something that is zero charge upfront because because there's not the um, there isn't the, the cost overhead or the value overhead, like that, that initial transaction, the value proposition on that is much smaller then hey, it makes sense that maybe there's no charge type things like for us when we have we have um, like I'll do a 20 minute call with with pretty much everyone to talk about their book idea, because I've got the bandwidth to do it and there's there's the ability to do it. It's quite quick. But as we're starting to get more into, if we want to do a consultation on what your book idea is and then you walk away from that with some real detailed steps to the process based on our framework, but you could take that and go away by yourself, then that's the that's-stepping that we've got. But I think that adding value and and having a value transfer, a transfer of value at the right level as part of this broader conversation, it really makes sense for bringing everyone along in the same way. \n\nLee: Two things I want to mention. One it's amazing. \n\nMore people will pay attention to you if they're paying you right, yeah, a lot of people have you the expression free advice is worth every penny, and the other thing is a lot of our. If I go in and do an inspection and I find out, hey, you need to call a plumber. Your HVAC is what's causing this. You need to get your HVAC fixed first. Yeah, we can remove the mold, but until you change the environment or the nexus of the problem in the first place, you're going to be mad when that new mold comes back in two years. \n\nAnd so I had a customer call nine months ago. He says oh, I am so sorry, but we hadn't called you, but we had this happen, this happened. I had to get this done. I finally got what your recommendation list said. I'm finally ready for it. So you know, give me a new price on this project and we're about $24,000. And that's an average. That's a little better than average job for us, but a lot of our jobs are in the $7,000 range, so it's not a $3 hot dog it's complicated. \n\nIt's a time process and you have to be that advisor along the way and after you give them the book. It's best if you could now I'm a texter so I will just text did you get your hvac you fixed or did you know? What did the plumber find when he went there? \n\nyou know those kind of things just every couple of months, every couple of weeks, every couple of months or something like that, or just shoot them a a paint a picture of you know a product that would really help them right because it keeps the conversation going. \n\nStuart: I mean this whole idea of conversation starting it just happens to be the books in the most effective way of starting that conversation, but the product, the the thing that we're most interested in isn't book sales, it isn't even the books themselves, it's just that's the mechanism that we're using. It's the conversation, because it's the minority of people who are ready to take action immediately. It's not like, um, like I say, it's not a transactional business. We're not selling them a hot dog outside a football stadium and they're hungry, and the transaction takes place immediately. Or or you're not the plumber where they've got a water leak and it needs to happen immediately. These are cross processes and projects that have a certain cadence to them, which is a little bit longer, and keeping that conversation going in the way that's the most convenient for you and for them. Lots of opportunities, and I want to make sure that we talk about I always joke that time goes fast, but yet again, time goes fast. On the, on the podcast here. \n\nI want to talk quickly before we wrap up, though, about the ways that you're using the books, and I'll include some pictures here, because Lee was kind enough to send across a few pictures of the way that he's using it. So, as you're listening, check out the link on. I don't know if it will show up in the podcast feed, but on the website there'll be the links in the website. So there was a couple of pictures he'd sent through, three of them that really stood out. One was there was a sticker on the book where you were using it in a certain place. Don't want to touch on that. The other one was their vehicle wrap, just because I find that funny. It's not quite the right word, but it just tickles something when I see it. Don't talk about that quickly. And then the third one was there was a picture on a what do you call them Like the rollout board things outside the conference room. It looked like the poster board, the poster board. Thank you, yeah. \n\nLee: That poster board is right now in our foyer, but when we would do trade shows and so forth, that would go to the trade show and we would have stacks of our books. We'd have one book out there. You know scarcity, we wouldn't show them all because that would that kind of lessen the value. \n\nBut yeah, yeah well, you can go get one, and, and so how much would this one? You know how much is this one and, and I sold a few. But if they If they really did, you know, have us call out, then I would just go ahead and handle, right. So so I kind of felt I wanted to feel the real interest before. I gave them at that time a five dollar book. Now they're going, you know, that'll cost a lot more than that for me to to do um yes so the poster board is one thing. \n\nOne thing that you'll see is now, this is a little um ninja, I guess I don't know what the right word is, but the sticker on the on the front says waiting copy. Please do not remove. See back cover. And on the backside I had another one says to get your free copy of this, go to freemoldbookcom, and it also had a QR code that they could do. So. Do you think I went and asked permission before I left them in the waiting room? \n\nNo, I give it to all my employees I say, when you take your kid or grandma to the, you just leave it there. You know that's hilarious, you just leave it, all right. So they're there because of health, right, right. \n\nStuart: And so that's my target audience I tell you what you were joking before saying hey, you've had some other great guests. I don't know why I'm here, but if, as anyone's listening, this is the gold for this episode, that kind of griller tactic of just because we often talk about this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses and I think I've even used an example of, like, a doctor's waiting room is the perfect place to leave some things, but I must admit I'd never thought about just just doing it. \n\nLee: But that's the perfect, that's perfect um, and before covid, we had one salesman. He's no longer with us, but I had assigned him to sell air purifiers that was what he spent his time in. So he would go and visit allergists and so forth, and we'd leave one in the waiting room. It says to get your own. We had a bumper sticker made just a property of, but to get one of your own, go to call this number, go this website, and so forth. Just a puppy dog, and so we sold one or two. But the people who call on doctors, they have a. I have to admire them. They have, they have a certain way of handling things. They're very suave and very diplomatic. You know, our guys was just, you know, didn't look like. You know one of those farm reps. \n\nAnd so it happened to be that I was ready to get a wrap on my car anyway wrap on my car anyway and so I waited. You know, I waited two or three months until I finalized the new picture this one, of course, I paid for the graphic. I paid, you know, got the rights to use that many years ago, changed it up and so I use and for myself I use some. I use a guy on Fiverr, been using him for about 10 years. He's got all the logos and everything for both of my companies and he's just kind of knows what I like Very few good English, just good conversation, reasonable price. English, just good conversation, reasonable price. And so that fit in with the rest of my logos and so forth that are already on the wraps and on the vehicles. \n\nStuart: Right. So do you track at all or do you have an indication on how that lands with the people out there? How many people use the qr code to get a copy of the book, or how many people grab it from the vehicle, or or the the um, the events. Obviously you're there so you know what happens at the events, but you don't feel either specifically or anecdotally. On the other, ones. \n\nLee: It's not perfect, but yes, to some extent. Uh, we had the option of being able to send out the book of you know automatically when somebody did it, but we decided we opted not to do that because my daughter, who's actually the marketing uh lady, she sees everyone and we you know, she can. \n\nStuart: You know if, if somebody from a foreign country you know, we can we can just tell that you know they want us to send it you know there's a lot of spam, you know and robots and whatever. \n\nLee: So she sees every one of those and it does ask how did you hear about us? Now, on our front end we have a call-in sheet that Ms Deborah asked and she goes through all of those and right on there she's instructed and she does a good job at this. The Columbo question If you remember Columbo, he was almost out the door and he'd ask one more question. \n\nStuart: Right, one more thing, yeah, one more thing. \n\nLee: So oh, by the way, how'd you hear about us? \n\nStuart: And so yeah, that was written down every time yeah, those, um, this idea of getting out in front of audiences and understanding where they are, so the kind of connection between the doctor, surgery and people being there for health and more might be something that they're interested in. Does that go broader than that? Do you have other examples or the other, because you've been doing this for a while? So is it an easy thought process to think, okay, there's this group of people who might be the perfect match of clients and they're in this space. Is it easy for you to think about where they are? Or was that that doctor's surgery example? Was that the response, the, the outcome of like some dedicated thinking and like a brain trust for a period of time? \n\nLee: I don't. I don't remember the thought process at the time. Um, you know, entrepreneurs have way too many ideas, but that they don't ever follow through, right, uh, so a lot of times, a lot of our business also comes from people who are in the real estate business, either from the real estate agents or inspectors. \n\nSo yes we go to realtors offices and mention, you know, mention what we do and how it benefits them to maybe have the owner re-look at the house and make sure they have a chance to make any adjustments before somebody else comes in and wants to lower the price because they found or won't walk away because of mold, so we can do pre-inspection there. Found or won't walk away because of mold, so we can do pre-inspection there. Or if somebody on the other side, if somebody's buying, then a special Alabama is not one of those that requires a mold inspection. Other states do, but a lot of people who are moving in just assume they're going to get that in a radon test. \n\nAnd so they ask for it and I'm on the rolodex of uh, probably out of 150 inspectors in in town, I'm probably on the rolodex of probably a good 30 or 40 of them okay, yeah and gee, I recorded a podcast yesterday so it'll probably be the show before this as people are listening to it, but a couple of weeks ahead of where we're talking today. \n\nStuart: So Jeff Klein, who I was talking to yesterday, helps business owners who and try to kind of like transition into speaking events and and not to become professional speakers, but kind of like as a lead generation type thing. \n\nSo he had a list and again, if if people have been watching along, they'll have seen it last week. But he had a list and again, if people have been watching along, they'll have seen it last week but he had a list where he documented all of the Chamber of Commerce meetings, all of the I forget what else was on the list now, but there were several of these kind of industry organizations that had a mandate for bringing speakers in for their guests, that had a mandate for bringing speakers in for their guests, and then the premise was, of course, if you have a book, you've already got the majority of a delivery there, and now you've also got a book as the call to action, the next step. So is that something that you've explored or had opportunity to do? Kind of speak to those you mentioned the realtors, like speak at a realtor organization or the inspectors I'm would have the same thing or even Chamber of Commerce. \n\nLee: Right, I have not done Chamber of Commerce, I have done Building Code. Now, that's an odd bunch. They are really, really to the, because I took my code book. He had his code book and he's saying, well, look here it says this. I said, well, I understand, but over here it says I can't do this. \n\nAnd so once he saw, I knew what I was doing and I says I am not doing anything to detrimentally hurt the house, it's only an improvement. What you, the way you want, it is great, but this is better and right. And then I and I brought out, you know, magazines and other organizations who said the same thing and he, finally, he finally acquiesced, he, it took him, it took two or three weeks before we came to. But would you know, but did you, would you know that he called me the next year. He says, mr Raymond, would you come and talk to our association of building? It was, you know, about 20 different cities who come together every other month and they just had, you know, meeting three that kind of thing. \n\nSo it just sort of again being able to get in front of the right people, because change is hard. People don't like change. \n\nAnd the way that we can take care of crawl spaces is change from what the codes say and it leaves the house, you know, cleaner and more healthier, doesn't smell and, you know, saves the energy. All these different things. After we removed the mold, we changed the environment of the crawl space so the rest of the house gets healthier. But that changes hard of the crawl space, so the the rest of the house gets healthier. But that's right. Change is hard and so again. \n\nStuart: Uh, you, sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in yeah, and people admit some initial responses, particularly, I think, where there is this kind of confrontation type industry of the building respectors someone's trying to do this and they've got to be led through the law. No, it has to be this way around. Or, um, when changes come through, there's either it changes a whole load of practices underneath or there's some conflict about whether it's changing to a or b. So I think people's natural response sometimes is that no, push away or stand off first. \n\nBut the illustration that you gave there is perfect in this idea of conversation starting. We're usually talking about it in terms of clients and that kind of funnel, but this conversation starting with other industry professionals and that cohort of peers where there is a relationship that can be developed over time, and the fact that a book exists and brings all of that information together in a way that is either a backup to a conversation that's had or a next step or it just brings it together. All of these conversations start and lead towards things further down the track and I think throughout all of this conversation that's what's really resonated and I hope it resonates for listeners is you've brought together this information in something that is a book that's got more authority than if you had it in a different format, but it really lays the ground for this longer term relationship with people and and just kicks everything off on the right foot and and takes that brings people along with you, whether that's clients or partners or collaborators. It's just such a great way of doing it. Time's flown by. What were you going to say there? \n\nLee: I usually hand it to a customer in a sleeve like this very cheap Alibaba or something like that. That adds value. They feel like it's been and plus, mine were getting all you know wrinkly and in the car, so this is preserved the way they look. So if you carry them around and that added that's a to me that was just a nice little yeah again. \n\nStuart: I'm pretty sure I'm going to call this podcast something to do with guerrilla marketing, because these ideas are fantastic. That extra thought process. When you think about who your clients are, that the baseline is health concerns. When they're thinking about mold, they're already thinking about kind of like the hazmat suits and the breathing apparatus and that's their mental space. So you giving someone it's like the whole covid when you went to hotel rooms in covid like increasingly everything was individually wrapped and separated because the, the psyche, the mentality was like this protection I want. There's something out there that's trying to get me that your clients are already in that brain space to a certain degree. So the fact that you've given it to them in that plastic wrap that has a subconscious element of hygiene and we're we're thinking about this type of thing, I mean what a fantastic extra step oh they, less than a penny a bag, you know, in bulk right right. \n\nThis will definitely circle back in a few months and talk about some more of these ideas in. In some give people some more ideas that you're going through, but the it's such a heavy lift for people. So if they're thinking about doing a book by themselves, that's the most difficult way of doing it. I understand that some people do it that way, but it's the most difficult. Working with us is a much lighter lift, but there's still some. You've got to put some mental effort into it exactly, and it's the most disappointing thing that you think people get to the end of the process and they kind of think, oh, thank goodness for that. Now it's done and you don't see people doing things with it. \n\nOnce this is created, I mean, give yourself a week off if you want, but come back to it and then think, okay, I've now got this asset. What are all of the ways that I can use this asset in the most effective way? Is it physical? Is it digital? If it's digital, which format? Going back to the pdf versus page, turn the conversation. If I'm at a conference, do I want to give them a copy of the conference or just make it easy for them to get a copy if they're coming in and I'm asking them where they heard about us identifying that they did come through the book or didn't come through the book, how does that change the follow-up in the conversation, whether it makes sense to text them or email them, all of these things about. I've now have a series of assets and how can I use those to the best degree possible? Just that little bit of extra effort and attention and and using it I mean it can really make a huge amount of difference for people. \n\nLee: Right, but once this gets, once I feel like it's left the nest. You know it's on its own and I've got all the because. Here's a damaging admission my weakness is one of the campaigns I plan to do next, and I haven't got to it yet is I'm going to go back to all my a chance, one of the first chances to have this new book and your free copy. So I'm, I'm, I'm lack on that. That's, that's a future project for me. So everybody's got something to prove on right. \n\nStuart: Like you said before. I mean there's entrepreneurs, business owners. We've got more ideas than we have time to execute on them, so everyone's got. Everyone's got a list of things we should. We'll talk after we wrap up for a second, but we should talk about having a strategy. Call about that, because we've got lots of experience of doing that with people, so we can do that and maybe we can use that as the example to circle back in six months or so and do an update show just to give people some more ideas and go a little bit deeper on the ones that we've tried. Before we wrap, I want to make sure that people have got opportunity to find out more about you and the organization there, so where's a good place for people to go to learn more? \n\nLee: Okay, if you want the book itself, I have a dedicated website called freemoldbookcom. Dedicated website called freemoldbookcom. My website is alabamamoldcom. Alabamamoldcom, pretty simple. It is geographically confining a little bit. But rest assured, if you are from out of state and you decide you want a book, that's fine, you're going to get it. You know you're going to get a PDF and we look forward to answering any questions. And for all of your readers and listeners and viewers and so forth, I'm just going to say I've already got a swipe file. I've already stuffed on my second book. I'm going to do a book for lake owners and the humidity problems that go with lakes. Ah, fantastic. \n\nBut, so I would just suggest that go ahead and take the first step. The book will pay its weight in gold and dividends. \n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, I mean, for anyone who's ever thought about mold issues. I mean, as you say, there's pages and pages of your expertise and experience in there that will help them out and to see it as an example of how you're using it to engage customers and start that conversation. Perfect for that as well. I'll make sure that there are links to um, to those web pages and to your linkedin profile as well. I'll put all of those in the show notes so, as people are watching and listening on the podcast player or on the website, there'll be links straight through. \n\nI'll put, as I mentioned, I'll put those images you sent through in the show notes as well. So I'm not sure I think they show up in most podcast players not iTunes, but most podcast players. I think they do, but I'll put them on the website as well. So another reason for people to head across there. Lee, fantastic, this has gone so fast. I really love just the implementation of this and the ideas again out there, because it's one thing to create something and I think the process that we've talked about in our process helps you to create the best thing possible but it's another thing to actually be out there using it in all of these fantastic ways to start the conversation. \n\nLee: So I'm sure you've made a book. Don't let it sit on on the shelf. Get it out there yeah, exactly, exactly. \n\nStuart: Well, thank you again, really appreciate your time thank you. \n\nLee: Thank you, I appreciate it. \n\nStuart: Privilege been a real privilege um it's a pleasure and we'll definitely circle back in a couple of months and do a follow-up. So, everyone, make sure you subscribe to the show and check in for the emails, because spam's an issue these days and mailboxes don't always want to deliver emails. So make sure that you're checking out things and then we'll catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"
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Today, on the Book More Show, I learned valuable business-building strategies from Lee Ramey's experience when He transformed his cleaning company into a leading mold remediation service.
\n\nHe discusses his journey of self-education in the 1980s to become an expert and how overcoming challenges like influencing industry categories helped establish authority.
\n\nWe discuss educational materials and how they can empower consumers and validate health concerns, highlighting Lee's commitment to being education-focused rather than sales-driven.
\n\nWe, also, touched on his insights on book publishing, from writing and design to creative marketing tactics, and provided a framework for leveraging expertise through informative content.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/173
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Lee Ramey:
\nWebsite: Mold and Mildew Solutions LLC |
\nLinkedIn: Lee Ramey
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Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nLee: it going. Oh, excellent, thank you. Thank you for having me on Pleasure.
\n\nStuart: I'm actually excited for this because I kind of start every episode with a bit of context of how I know the person. And we started off doing episodes just internally and it was often me and Dean or me and Betsy. And then we've done a large number of of author interviews, which is what this is with people who we've worked with. And then we've done a few kind of other companies who who just have a very complementary way of doing business, which have been a few of the recent ones, but with the author ones, I think, just the way that we invite people, we tend to invite people as they're getting towards the end of the process and then we're not good enough at remembering to invite people from a few years ago where they've really got this experience.
\n\nSo this is what we're talking about today, because you wrote your book a couple of years ago and the way that you're using it is really um, I think this will give a lot of inspiration to other people in the way that they can use it. So we'll get get to all that. But let's start with a bit of context. So why don't you share with everyone kind of what it is that you do in the organization and then we can jump off from there.
\n\nLee: I started a cleaning business, actually June of 84, so 40 years ago this June and I was doing just, you know, janitorial window cleaning, carpet cleaning, things like that. And as people would ask me to do more things, I would have to go find out how to do it. It wasn't the internet then or you couldn't use YouTube University, so I had to go, you know, ask questions and read books, things like that, and I got pretty good at things. But once I found out there was a science behind cleaning, there was a science behind drying something out that just was the light bulb. You know the inner geek in me just, oh, I like this, I like wine.
\n\nAnd there was a time period in the late 80s, early 90s, that mold started to be a lot in the news and lawyers were involved and basically nobody in the business really wanted to deal with mold because everybody who touched it got sued. But people kept on asking me you know, we got to do this, got to do this, and it actually was. A church member says we got a problem here and could you please just help us out? You know we're not going to sue you, you know, it just just happens.
\n\nAnd so I started searching around and at that time I had to go all over the United States just little pockets of knowledge knew about respirators, knew about filters, knew about mycology, you knew about, you know using, you know what kind of vacuums and so forth. And a lot of this information was a little bit like the asbestos business and there was used some of the same protocols. So such one of the smart ones. But I happened to be lucky enough that I was being taught by the same people who was, uh, writing the books, writing the standards setting you know in the forefront of doing it right.
\n\nSo, um, as they were writing the books, they had called me up and say hey, we don't know whether this, that a works or b works. Try one room this way and one try this way. You know, give me some interesting.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, so it was really at the kind of, as they were setting the standards and the best practices, you were really involved in that kind of I don't want to say trial and error, but the oh that's beginning to be right.
\n\nLee: That's such an interesting.
\n\nStuart: Right, it's such an interesting place to be because you kind of put yourself in that conversation that's going on with the people who are setting those standards. So again, that doesn't that opportunity doesn't come up for everyone, but it must have been a really interesting time in the market to kind of be involved at that level it was, and because just my personality, you know not being satisfied with you know, just a surface knowledge.
\n\nLee: You know not being satisfied with you know, just a surface knowledge. I kept on wanting to do better and better, and as soon as a class was available I would take it, and so forth.
\n\nI spent a lot of time away from you know home. I wish my wife can attest to that. You know conventions, things like that. But as I continued to get better, it came that there was nobody in my market. And then I'm in Birmingham, alabama, nobody in my market that was actually doing it according to the way the books were written, and so I've been in the business so long. I even had to talk the yellow pages into having a category for mold removal, a category for mold inspection.
\n\nI bring back a yellow page from Dallas or Atlanta and say look, they got it. Why can't we have one here?
\n\nStuart: You know, right, that's so funny.
\n\nLee: Yeah, so been in it a bit and it seemed, as I continued to grow I was able to help people, and at that time I was just doing the mold removal. That's called remediation, removing the mold. Well, to do the mold removal correctly, you really need to know beforehand what's the scope of work, what needs to be done. Well, at that time the industry was relying on what's called a CIH, or Certified Industrial Hygienist, because they've been working with the asbestos people, and so they had some protocols. They knew how to do that, but they actually didn't know building science. They and as best as, once you remove it, you know it's gone forever. You remove it, but the environment's still there. It's going to pop up in the same place. So they didn't have a full grasp of what was going on. So then I went back to school again to become an inspector and uh, so that was uh and was that and go ahead?
\n\nStuart: was that an existing inspector certification that, like they, they existed, they just weren't really used? Or is this really laying the groundwork for what a mold inspector needs to be, because it was all new territory?
\n\nLee: it was all new territory. It was all new territory because the cih is uh, fantastic at what they did. But cih means certified industrial hygienist, so they were used to the industrial setting. You know having to do with hearing and in fall protection and you know safety around. You know safety around. You know big moving machines. That was their niche. But a indoor air quality professional for a residence it wasn't known of, and so we were kind of. I was fortunate enough to be on some of the trade associations that was first started and learned how to not only get the work done but communicate it and how to make sure that we're doing it well and it satisfies the need for the customer and the need for the science.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, actually that's a great point. That's customer understanding of something when you're in an industry that has I guess financial advisors are the same in the sense that there's somewhat complex products that confuse people. So customers have a surface understanding of what they want, but not the details. You guys for sure I mean people see mold or suspect mold, but then they don't know the, the details of remediation or, even more importantly, maybe the the cause of it in the first place. But that education gap or understanding gap, is that more, and it may have changed over time. But is that more educating the customers so they know more about it, so they can make better decisions themselves? Or it's just a familiarity or a feeling that they're in the right place? So they're not at all interested in the details, but they just want the certainty that you know what you're doing. How engaged are the customers? Typically because it's residential rather than commercial uh, you have both, you have.
\n\nLee: You have the just bottom line people. How much is it going to cost? Am I going to be able to sell the house? Well, that's a lot of times, you know, that's a lot of times that kind of customer. They just want a certificate saying it's been done so they can get rid of that piece of property or whatever. Then I have quite a few medically very, very sensitive people and they are allergic to everything, probably allergic to their own breath.
\n\nI mean, you're just scared out of their mind about everything. So a lot of it was, you know, talking to men off the ledge. Yes, mold can be an issue, them in off the ledge. Yes, mold Mold can be an issue. But God made mold. It's everywhere. It's going to be outside. It's going to be dissolving things. God meant it to be.
\n\nWe just don't want too much inside our house and we don't want any of the bad kind. They're just saying it plain and simple that takes care of 95% of all the population, actually 97% of all the population. Now there is a sensitive group and the backstory is my mom got really, really sick. We lived in a moldy house, so I saw the result of us being in a moldy house and so indoor air quality always kind of had a in the back of my mind, a very part of my psyche, Right Personal connection to it, Right, Right. And so, to answer your question, for those who just want to know that you know what you're doing, and then just, you know, just flashing it or just saying you have it, you know. However, I have had customers who come back and text me back. You know five or six. On page seven you said this 49.
\n\nStuart: Well, that's fine.
\n\nLee: I know that they're engaged and most of the time they become my best, best, uh, cheerleaders, because they they have. They feel like they're validated in all the research they've done right.
\n\nStuart: Actually that's such a great point, that idea that it gives people. So we're talking in case people are just listening we're talking about using the book as the tool and people are engaging with that at various levels. But it's something that I don't think has come up in in the podcast that we've talked about before this idea that it gives the receiver of the book a validation of their concerns or approach or desires, because someone has written something that resonates with them and it backs up either a thought process that they've been trying to share with a family member or even a peace of mind that they're in the right space.
\n\nLee: That kind of buy-in right, because a lot of times it will only be one in the family, or maybe the wife and a kid, that that's. That's kind of the scenario.
\n\nThe husband I'm not saying anything bad about men, but they sometimes are oblivious to the home environment and so they say, well, I don't smell anything, you know well, I mean, the kids are going to get sick, they go to school and all that. And the wife says I have, I have this when I walked to this part of the house. Or remember, we go to this vacation spot and after two days I feel great.
\n\nAs soon as I get home within a few hours I start feeling lousy again. So the females are much better at connecting the dots between the way they feel or the way they observe their family to something having to do with the house, and they may not know what. And so mold is kind of the first thing they think of most of the time. And I will say at this juncture I can go into it later more if you want but as a certified industrial excuse me, certified indoor environmentalist there's about seven or eight major things that I take care of, including asbestos and radon and lead paint and bed bugs and VOCs and radon things. There's all different kinds of things in your house that can make you sick, but mold is that first thing they think of.
\n\nAnd because it's a complicated subject and it's got a lot of moving pieces, I found myself just spending hours and hours on the phone just answering the same questions over and over. And that's why I started back in and I'll tell you it was the spring of 2002 because I'd had an accident and I was bedridden for about five months. I was in a wheelchair for five months. So as my kids were running the business, I was sort of making these consumer advisories and they were, you know, 12, 13 pages long on different subjects, but mold seemed to be the one they really wanted to learn more about, and so that became the nexus of answering a lot of the basic questions. So it would save me time in that Right. So in a way it is kind of selfish in the first.
\n\nStuart: Right and serving the community that's there, trying to give them as much helpful information as possible in the most efficient way as possible. I think all of us who are listening are within the business because we've got a passion for it to some degree and we really want to share the message. So this idea that having the time and the foresight to capture the questions and then feed that back to people, it's just, it's serving the market that's there and knowing that that then leads to business further down the track because you are establishing yourself as the experts. It can seem there is the option of thinking about it in a selfish way, but it's really just. Sharing that information is the least selfish thing around. It's trying to help everyone in a way that makes the most sense. So in 2002, we've got the Consumer Reports coming together.
\n\nYou were saying the carpet cleaning type background, so I'm guessing that's where the Toronto marketing and Joe Polish's worldishes world comes into it yeah, I was the father of brother joe, polish for right and those early I mean again, we've both got enough gray hair, that um, that we've been around the environment for a long time those early consumer guides or reports, or room by room review or the carpet audits.
\n\nThat joe would do all of these things to kind of move the not quite esoteric knowledge but move the kind of the conversational knowledge and the the experience based reckons on on what the answer is to something that's a little bit more formulated and and official looking. So whether it's together in a report or a book, whether you've got a room-by-room review or the carpet review, which are some techniques that they've talked about in the past, but all of it goes to establishing this authority and building some rapport with people. So, before the books were around, did you find that you were getting people feeling back? Or the conversations that you had were referring to these guides that you'd created to people and the conversations that they helped start?
\n\nLee: Yes, and that's a great question because I try to look forward. But you have to get feedback from the past to know which way you want to go, and so I knew I didn't want it to be salesy. I wanted to be educational and we call ourselves an education-based company Because a lot of people hear the word mold and get scared and that there's there's, get panicky and even with and say we're talking about upholstery or carpet cleaning. A lot of people really did appreciate the fact that here's a guideline if you got blood and you go, you use this. If you got, you know, crayon, you try this you, before you call us, maybe you don't need us, right?
\n\nYeah, that was, uh, something that I really uh got the most feedback on it the fact that people would say, well, you know, thank goodness, you're not going to charge me $100 and do five minutes that I could have done. If I just know Now that if you were a short-term thinker and you were transaction-based only, you'd say, well, I don't want my guys, I don't want my people, you know, doing their own stuff. But the relationship was far better, you know, when they're doing their job playing bridge, whatever, bowling, whatever if the subject comes up. We're the. We're the ones they want to recommend.
\n\nStuart: Yeah that idea that you become their guy. That goes to person because you've started by being helpful first and the the small amount of transactions that you would get from those low value jobs versus the goodwill and all the larger jobs that you get. Because, okay, I low value jobs versus the goodwill and all of the larger jobs that you get. Because, okay, I can do these steps as myself, but this job is too big. Or today I can do these steps myself, but tomorrow the same thing happens, but I'm out of town, or it's a rental property that needs to be done immediately. Or there's lots of reasons why, once you've kind of claimed that space in their head is the, the, the helpful go-to person that fills the spot much more opportunity to write a bigger piece of the pie down the track so a term we use a lot in our, in our safety and sales meetings.
\n\nWe want to be their trusted advisor right, yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of people use that term as a kind of a throwaway term and they kind of put it out there, thinking that if I say enough, people will believe me, but they're not actually fulfilling that role. Everything is a little bit more transactional, but it's overused sometimes. What that really means, as it really establishes a relationship so much stronger and and evidence, is that you're the trusted advisor, not just you're trying to tell people you're their trusted advisor. It's a, it's a slight mind shift change. But and it goes into this abundance type a lot of our clients are strategic coach clients and strategic coach has this very big emphasis on an abundance and a multiplier type mentality rather than a scarcity and a lock and in type mentality. So it ties in so well with a much better approach to doing things.
\n\nLet's move forward. We've got 2002. We've got some guides. There's some good feedback coming from that. Where do we start thinking about bringing that together in a book? Because I know the first book was before we had a relationship. You were bringing some pieces together for that was it a? Was it a relatively quick transition in the thought and then it took a while to execute, or did you think about writing a book and then immediately started bringing it together? How long did it take to percolate?
\n\nLee: oh, I, if I'd had a, if I, if I could have done it over, I would have come to you first. It was a slog, it was a tough slog to get through. Um, so my, my books I tried to keep. I tried to keep most of the small little subjects that because of printing. My dad was a printer so I learned a few little tricks and we had we did our own printing actually here in in shop. Oh wait, uh.
\n\nSo we tried to keep them at either 16 or 32 pages and after 32 pages I really wasn't telling enough and I really didn't want to, and so I started saying, well, I guess then I got, I need to either do an A and a B you know you know two or you know a continuing series, whatever you call it. But then, because I did, I've always listened to marketing ideas and so forth and they talked about a book and that resonated with me because there's some kind of aura. Maybe not as much now, but there was always kind of an aura If you had the ability and time to write a book.
\n\nIt just seemed that people put you up just a little higher in their estimation a little bit, and so everything I was doing was not a perfect bound or you know as I like them now, and they were either spiral bound or stapled together, things of that nature. But when I decided to do a book, then I had plenty of information Right and I'm an early riser. Unfortunately, I wake up at 3.30, you know, by, by 3.30.
\n\nSo I would spend an hour or so most mornings and it took me about nine months or so to put the information down and then categorize it into chapters and so forth, and then it took me probably another year to pull the pictures. And you know and I'm not it wasn't a really simple book, it was because mold can go deep. It had you know the chapters on, you know the chapters on. You know what do you need to do, what can you do? When do you need a professional? Uh, what about contents? What if it's in the crawl space? You know, you know each of those, and but I had of the scientific data, I had the indices in the back, which then I had the footnotes to come back to, which is a little more complicated.
\n\nSo you know, I really applaud Betsy and Kim for all the hard work they did getting that done, because we'd have it all set up and then we'd move a paragraph and we'd lose the link Something would change yeah.
\n\nSomething would change or do this, and all of a sudden the picture's way out here. So, but I got through with the whole thing. I put it on Amazon. To be honest, I, I don't, it never did, and I was a hundred percent correct. I never did sell a lot on Amazon, right? However, just being able to say I sell it on Amazon for 1295, but here is, here is your copy, that has more emotional impact.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's so. You're talking there about the kind of heat and light and and authority for one of a better term that comes from being having the book on the subject. I always I mean there's so many examples now we've we've worked with over a thousand people, but the example always brings to mind is a podcast that you might have listened to that I've recorded last year with paul ross, who's a podiatrist, and he tells the story of. He's got three or four books on several different conditions and the latest one was called my Damn Toe Hurts, and it's for whatever the condition is that makes your toe hurts, but he tells the story of a guy coming in I don't know if it was a guy or a girl, but a patient coming in and being sat in the chair, and this was a new patient. There was no kind of real connection with them and halfway through the the process they were saying oh, I've just realized, you're paul, you're the person who wrote the book, and there was this kind of elevation in the the experience because he'd written the book.
\n\nI often say that exactly the same words on a website or on a youtube video don't have the same impact as the fact that we print them on and glue them together on dead trees. It must be the the dead trees in the paper and the dead cows in the glue. There's something about that combination that makes it appealable to or appealing to people. But there is definitely something about that and our approach is. I mean, we're pretty adamant the difference between a traditional book and a conversation starting book, and we're in the conversation starting book world because the traditional book world is expensive and there's a lot of effort put into it. That doesn't get the returns for us as real business owners, but one of the things that we definitely do get is the fact that it is a book. We call it a book. It looks like a book, it's printed as a book, even if people are using the digital versions. We tell people to refer to it as a digital version of the book and not an e-book, because that is irrelevant and unnecessarily devalues it.
\n\nLee: I didn't know that I learned something. Thank you.
\n\nStuart: Okay, yeah, so there you go. So when you say to someone, when you say to someone on the, when you say to a customer, I'll send you a digital version of my book, or you say to the next customer, I'll send you my ebook, what you're sending them is the exact same thing. But even just talking about it now, you can imagine the perception on the other end. Someone receiving the digital copy of the book oh, that's great. Someone receiving an ebook like an ebook is a pdf I can download off the internet. Why is that valuable? So just those little psychological things that reinforce that.
\n\nNot that we're doing this purely for authority, but if there's authority there to be taken, we should make the most of it.
\n\nIt's another reason where I'm not sure.
\n\nSo the later ones that you did with us versus the earlier ones, the the ones that the digital versions that we send out are laid out exactly as the book is.
\n\nSo there's left and right page pagination and whereas there's a blank page in the book, there's a blank page in the digital version. Again, when you think about the use case, having a blank page on a digital version is pretty irrelevant. But the reason that we do it is because we're trying to keep this, this, uh, this perception going that it's a digital version of the book and because it is, because we're trying to keep this, this, uh, this perception going that it's a digital version of the book and because it is a published book, that has more authority, so anyway, all of these things that kind of amplified. The point that you mentioned is that out in the world there is a enhanced credibility and authority and and heat and light that goes along with having a published book. We know behind the scenes that that's easier to do now than it was 30 years ago, but still it has that, has that element to it, and I can I ask you a question?
\n\nLee: I'm going to interview you for a second yeah, of course. So, uh, some some documents I may buy are in a flip book format and you know, you hear, you, you, you, you hear the page going over. Is that something that you have tried and recommended?
\n\nStuart: so it's funny I was so I'm down in the office in Florida now rather than at home in Pennsylvania just this week and I was meeting yesterday with Betsy and christy and we were running through some of the additions that we want to make to the package and we wrote down on the list those flipbook page turner type things. So when we last looked at it a few years ago, it was problematic. Everyone needed a special app in order to download it. They were typically hosted on a subscription service at the provider and then it was slow and clunky. If people were doing it on a cell phone or an ipad, it just didn't really work very well. So the technology has improved a little bit, but there's still a little bit of a barrier to to doing that, because typically it's not as easy as a PDF, where you send someone an email and it's got a PDF embedded in it or it has a link to a PDF that's on, like Amazon or Dropbox. They can just click on it and it will just immediately open up in the browser. Every other solution is typically either they need to download something or they need to go to a web page and it's got the other websites chrome around it and it's a little bit clunky, so I think we're still generally in the camp of it's not worth it.
\n\nThe benefit of keeping to that book framework with a formatted pdf that looks like a book takes the majority of that, but it is something we're looking at to see if there's a tool that does it, because I think the use case there would be to send it out in an email to someone and say hey, thanks for requesting a copy of the book. There's some really great information on it. Particularly if you're in this scenario, check out this section. That is really useful. I've actually included two links for you. One is to the pdf, just the pdf, and then another is to the page turner. So depending on which you prefer some people prefer one or the other just know that it's the same content, so that might be a use case for it.
\n\nLee: Yeah, that would be a good A B test to see which one they choose.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think still the majority of the services that do it. Well, it's a subscription service, so there is a cost overhead. One of the other ways of using it might be is if you do in videos and you're talking about the content of the book and you were doing like a screen share, like so you did a behind the scenes, like in the email sequence after someone opted in. If you did a behind the scenes, like a deeper dive on one chapter and you were doing a screen share, I mean it might be worth having a page turner just because maybe it's more visually compelling. But again, that would be a test between is it more visually compelling or is it just unnecessarily distracting.
\n\nSo it's definitely interesting and the good thing about all of this conversation the good thing about it is technology continues to move forwards and having created the thing, you've done 90% of the work for whatever technology change there is in the future, like if the whole PDF standard changed and it went away and everyone switched to the MOB or MOBI, like the KDP, the Kindle books, like, imagine that everything suddenly changed to that. Well, you've done all the work. It's just a case of reconfiguring it for the new platform. So it gives so many opportunities once you've got it created, just to keep up with whatever the latest use cases for it. Gotcha, that was a long answer to a short question.
\n\nLee: Well, I'm sorry we didn't rehearse that, but that was just really interesting because I'm studying for a test and that's what they provided is for me too Ah okay For my test scores.
\n\nStuart: That's interesting then. So your experience of using it if you imagine that you had that flip, had that flip version versus just the PDF version where you would just scroll through in whatever PDF software that you had the experience of you doing it, was it more clunky using that page turner or did it add anything to it and then, from right, didn't add anything to?
\n\nLee: it and then, from right, didn't add anything. It did not because what I wanted to do was print a few pages at a time so I could lay in bed and not be in a screen. I was trying to cut down my blue screen time before I go to sleep, but reading, you know, just a few printed out pages would satisfy that. And also, you know, help me do my studying at a flight time.
\n\nStuart: And you know I didn't want to be if you drop from sleep as you fall asleep and there's some paper falls on your face, that's one thing, if a ipad falls on your face, that's a different story.
\n\nLee: That's right so it did not satisfy what I was actually aiming for, so in it right that context. I only had to do it at my computer, yeah.
\n\nStuart: And a lot of reasons people do it as well is this idea of locking stuff down. So a reason that some people or some organizations don't like PDFs is when the PDF is out there, it's out there, you can't do anything or it's very difficult to do anything to restrict it. So sometimes they'll put them in these other platforms. That restricts entry. But then again the use case for that it's a misalignment between the customer experience and what you're trying to do. You're trying to lock this stuff away and you make it additionally inconvenient for the client because they can't open it on every device or they can't print it off when they want to, or they can't. Most most PDF softwares now allow you to highlight and mark up in the document itself. So again, thinking about it from the user's perspective rather than from the company's perspective. Another reason for keeping it simple and and making it as accessible as possible.
\n\nLee: Right, yeah, making it as accessible as possible, right, yeah, so I was able to go from. I did. My first book was around 64 pages, and so then is I went. I didn't want to do it in in because I didn't have the equipment. I took it to an outside printer and, uh, had about 200 printed and that lasted me six, seven, eight months, something like that. I was giving them out left and right and that I ordered more. I think I ordered, maybe you know, 1200, you know, over the over the over the years, and every year or so I would update a little bit here and there, change out pictures, as, as I would be explaining things to people, I think of an illustration I says that's what I want to use.
\n\nSo I'd go back and tweak one paragraph or I. Would you know if there was a news event or something like that that was more current, then I would try to bring the and plus. I wanted to change the copyright date every year. You know when I did it too, right, okay? Yeah and so I'll see more up to date, exactly, exactly yeah, but um, the uh, the last, the last version that was would call a book, was in 18. I last really did any major tweaking to it in 20 or 21, something like that.
\n\nAnd by that time I was so busy during COVID I really didn't have time to do anything else. But then, as things came back a little bit to normal, then I wanted to do a better rewrite and I said, well, I'm going to use, you know, because I always had continued listening to you and your guest. I mean, you have some awesome, very smart guests. I don't know why I'm on here, but you have some wonderful, you have a wide variety. That gives me, you know, expands my universe, right.
\n\nStuart: And it's easier. I don't know if you find the same, but I find it's easier to listen to someone else's specific business but think about the principles and then apply them to my own thinking or even apply it to their business, because then you're just thinking about the principles and you're not thinking about the implementation. Because then you're just thinking about the principles and you're not thinking about the implementation, like if every guest was in the remediation business and they were talking about things, a reasonable portion of your brain would be thinking at the details of the actual job of work, the remediation piece, and not the marketing principle piece. So anyway, I'm not sure if you're the same, but I like listening to a broad spectrum because the ideas you can concentrate on the ideas and not get stuck in the weeds of the business itself.
\n\nLee: Exactly, Exactly, yeah, and so I really I do appreciate the fact that it it looks.
\n\nStuart: I've added, I think it we're up to 160 pages on the new book, right, a lot thicker, and it looks good, feels good, and so you, you can't deny it is a book, right yeah, I think that the way that you did it as well was the perfect way of starting off with something that's manageable and then adding over time based off that real world feedback, because so many. It's like the lean model of get something out there first, or the what's the saying no plan survives contact with the enemy or the mike tyson one if everyone's got a plan until I punch him in the face just a bit more direct. But this idea if you could spend and this is why I yeah, I'm going to try and not go off on a rant because I think I did that one or two shows ago but the whole bestseller marketplace that's out there with people charging tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to write a book under the premise that you'll become a bestseller, and then sit back and people just start knocking on your door. There is definitely a use case for that. But it's the top of the market where creating the Rolls Royce of a book in one go and putting all the eggs in that basket, where that pays off and you get a return on that investment.
\n\nThe majority of us, the vast, vast majority, was real world business owners. If we start off with our reckon, first our field, for what's that? What will resonate with the market, but then we add over time not only does it mean that it's likely to get done because it's the scope is more constrained, but if it turns out that we need to pivot, then we haven't kind of sunk everything in one. I mean you were talking about the breadth of your business is pretty broad, but knowing that mold was the first one and starting with that, and you can imagine a scenario where you started with water remediation or air quality or something that didn't quite hit the mark and then the feedback that you get people are always asking about more mold questions. If you just spend 50, $60,000 on the air quality book and years to write it. I mean it's your approach of creating something that starts the conversation and then iterating based on that feedback. It's by far the most successful way of doing it.
\n\nLee: Right, and because we do want to be an education-based company, be an education-based company. It is a slow migration toward the rear. I start laying in little hints we can help people with that, give us a call, and so forth and we're probably 30 pages in before I really start putting those hints that, yes, you may have this problem and you can take care of it, but if this is too much to handle, I'm here for you. And so no advert saying you need to call us because we're the best, or anything like that. Don't, we won't, we won't, we won't to set the bar and then let them decide who's reaching that bar or not. Because, yeah, because, in my business there is, there are so many shysters, so many high pressure salesmen. They want to scare you into doing work. Oh, my god, your house is going to be different mode. You need to run, right, you know.
\n\nStuart: Burn the house, yeah, yeah whatever like, as, as soon as they start asking questions, it's well, and if I mean, if you want your children to die, then I mean you could not do it.
\n\nBut it's like the, uh, the, the, anything to do with babies, the. Not that I've personally experienced in this, but I've heard people say like you go into the, the, um, the stroller, is that a british word or is that an American word? I'm getting confused. Anyway, like the pushchair, the stroller type fails people and they say, well, there's this model and this model which is in the price range that you're thinking about. But for people who really value their child's safety, there's this thousand dollar plus model over here and it's that psychological and I think that's what everyone is super conscious of, even going into it. Like the reason that the husband, to a certain degree kind of, is turning a blind eye to it is because they don't want to make the call and have that salesman saying well, clearly your wife is suffering here, so if you love her, you give me the thousand dollars that I'm asking for right it.
\n\nLee: Your ethics over time will always outweigh the cost you have to charge, because I'm not going to be cheap. We're not going to be the cheapest.
\n\nStuart: We're going to do things right.
\n\nLee: I got $4 million worth of insurance just because I got the word mold in my name. Right? Yeah, and so it's not a cheap business and so and it's a complex with a lot of variables and put pieces of the puzzle and and I like the way one of your previous ones, Tim, starts with a W, but he talked about it being complex and it's not a transaction here I want a hot dog.
\n\nIt's not a transaction here, I want a hot dog, it's not that right because a lot of times when I go in and do an inspection I charge for inspection. I do testing and so forth. So people may say, well, people. Some people will say, well, I can get a free, free mold inspection. You know from you this three letter over here and I says, well, are you getting an inspection or are you getting a salesman? You know, because I haven't spent this, you know 30 years of education and can give it away, and because we charge for it. It's the wording I like is SIF, sort and screen. If they are willing to pay my $259 for me just to show up the door and spend an hour and a half to two hours with them, then I know they're serious enough to possibly do work with us.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, go ahead, and they know that you're coming in there, you're providing the service for that inspection to give them the best information on what the next step is and if they've come through the book funnel anyway, they already know that you're willing to share and give away the knowledge to put them in the most empowered position to take the next step. Most empowered position to take the next step, but that inspection that is comprehensive and more broad than some of the kind of dash in dash out and it's just a sales opportunity they get.
\n\nLee: They get a written report, usually seven to ten pages. You know at the end is the notes and so forth yeah, they get good value for that exactly, and it's part of the process.
\n\nStuart: So that's why I really like about the, this idea that we keep reinforcing of the conversational um, the conversation starting book, and that that conversation is broader than just a transaction. So, starting that journey by educating them and helping them understand the questions that are important to them or things they might not realize, or reinforce the things that they know already. And then the next step is we need to elevate this conversation to something that's more fact-based and detailed and it's not just coming in for a reckon and a sales call. It's actually giving you the value and even at that point you still may choose to take that somewhere else. But hey, we're all happy with that because we've brought the conversation along and there's an introduction to the services. There's a value exchange in the value that you give and the cost that's charged for it. I think it's a much more transparent type of relationship.
\n\nNow, if you're in a business where you're able to do something that is zero charge upfront because because there's not the um, there isn't the, the cost overhead or the value overhead, like that, that initial transaction, the value proposition on that is much smaller then hey, it makes sense that maybe there's no charge type things like for us when we have we have um, like I'll do a 20 minute call with with pretty much everyone to talk about their book idea, because I've got the bandwidth to do it and there's there's the ability to do it. It's quite quick. But as we're starting to get more into, if we want to do a consultation on what your book idea is and then you walk away from that with some real detailed steps to the process based on our framework, but you could take that and go away by yourself, then that's the that's-stepping that we've got. But I think that adding value and and having a value transfer, a transfer of value at the right level as part of this broader conversation, it really makes sense for bringing everyone along in the same way.
\n\nLee: Two things I want to mention. One it's amazing.
\n\nMore people will pay attention to you if they're paying you right, yeah, a lot of people have you the expression free advice is worth every penny, and the other thing is a lot of our. If I go in and do an inspection and I find out, hey, you need to call a plumber. Your HVAC is what's causing this. You need to get your HVAC fixed first. Yeah, we can remove the mold, but until you change the environment or the nexus of the problem in the first place, you're going to be mad when that new mold comes back in two years.
\n\nAnd so I had a customer call nine months ago. He says oh, I am so sorry, but we hadn't called you, but we had this happen, this happened. I had to get this done. I finally got what your recommendation list said. I'm finally ready for it. So you know, give me a new price on this project and we're about $24,000. And that's an average. That's a little better than average job for us, but a lot of our jobs are in the $7,000 range, so it's not a $3 hot dog it's complicated.
\n\nIt's a time process and you have to be that advisor along the way and after you give them the book. It's best if you could now I'm a texter so I will just text did you get your hvac you fixed or did you know? What did the plumber find when he went there?
\n\nyou know those kind of things just every couple of months, every couple of weeks, every couple of months or something like that, or just shoot them a a paint a picture of you know a product that would really help them right because it keeps the conversation going.
\n\nStuart: I mean this whole idea of conversation starting it just happens to be the books in the most effective way of starting that conversation, but the product, the the thing that we're most interested in isn't book sales, it isn't even the books themselves, it's just that's the mechanism that we're using. It's the conversation, because it's the minority of people who are ready to take action immediately. It's not like, um, like I say, it's not a transactional business. We're not selling them a hot dog outside a football stadium and they're hungry, and the transaction takes place immediately. Or or you're not the plumber where they've got a water leak and it needs to happen immediately. These are cross processes and projects that have a certain cadence to them, which is a little bit longer, and keeping that conversation going in the way that's the most convenient for you and for them. Lots of opportunities, and I want to make sure that we talk about I always joke that time goes fast, but yet again, time goes fast. On the, on the podcast here.
\n\nI want to talk quickly before we wrap up, though, about the ways that you're using the books, and I'll include some pictures here, because Lee was kind enough to send across a few pictures of the way that he's using it. So, as you're listening, check out the link on. I don't know if it will show up in the podcast feed, but on the website there'll be the links in the website. So there was a couple of pictures he'd sent through, three of them that really stood out. One was there was a sticker on the book where you were using it in a certain place. Don't want to touch on that. The other one was their vehicle wrap, just because I find that funny. It's not quite the right word, but it just tickles something when I see it. Don't talk about that quickly. And then the third one was there was a picture on a what do you call them Like the rollout board things outside the conference room. It looked like the poster board, the poster board. Thank you, yeah.
\n\nLee: That poster board is right now in our foyer, but when we would do trade shows and so forth, that would go to the trade show and we would have stacks of our books. We'd have one book out there. You know scarcity, we wouldn't show them all because that would that kind of lessen the value.
\n\nBut yeah, yeah well, you can go get one, and, and so how much would this one? You know how much is this one and, and I sold a few. But if they If they really did, you know, have us call out, then I would just go ahead and handle, right. So so I kind of felt I wanted to feel the real interest before. I gave them at that time a five dollar book. Now they're going, you know, that'll cost a lot more than that for me to to do um yes so the poster board is one thing.
\n\nOne thing that you'll see is now, this is a little um ninja, I guess I don't know what the right word is, but the sticker on the on the front says waiting copy. Please do not remove. See back cover. And on the backside I had another one says to get your free copy of this, go to freemoldbookcom, and it also had a QR code that they could do. So. Do you think I went and asked permission before I left them in the waiting room?
\n\nNo, I give it to all my employees I say, when you take your kid or grandma to the, you just leave it there. You know that's hilarious, you just leave it, all right. So they're there because of health, right, right.
\n\nStuart: And so that's my target audience I tell you what you were joking before saying hey, you've had some other great guests. I don't know why I'm here, but if, as anyone's listening, this is the gold for this episode, that kind of griller tactic of just because we often talk about this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses and I think I've even used an example of, like, a doctor's waiting room is the perfect place to leave some things, but I must admit I'd never thought about just just doing it.
\n\nLee: But that's the perfect, that's perfect um, and before covid, we had one salesman. He's no longer with us, but I had assigned him to sell air purifiers that was what he spent his time in. So he would go and visit allergists and so forth, and we'd leave one in the waiting room. It says to get your own. We had a bumper sticker made just a property of, but to get one of your own, go to call this number, go this website, and so forth. Just a puppy dog, and so we sold one or two. But the people who call on doctors, they have a. I have to admire them. They have, they have a certain way of handling things. They're very suave and very diplomatic. You know, our guys was just, you know, didn't look like. You know one of those farm reps.
\n\nAnd so it happened to be that I was ready to get a wrap on my car anyway wrap on my car anyway and so I waited. You know, I waited two or three months until I finalized the new picture this one, of course, I paid for the graphic. I paid, you know, got the rights to use that many years ago, changed it up and so I use and for myself I use some. I use a guy on Fiverr, been using him for about 10 years. He's got all the logos and everything for both of my companies and he's just kind of knows what I like Very few good English, just good conversation, reasonable price. English, just good conversation, reasonable price. And so that fit in with the rest of my logos and so forth that are already on the wraps and on the vehicles.
\n\nStuart: Right. So do you track at all or do you have an indication on how that lands with the people out there? How many people use the qr code to get a copy of the book, or how many people grab it from the vehicle, or or the the um, the events. Obviously you're there so you know what happens at the events, but you don't feel either specifically or anecdotally. On the other, ones.
\n\nLee: It's not perfect, but yes, to some extent. Uh, we had the option of being able to send out the book of you know automatically when somebody did it, but we decided we opted not to do that because my daughter, who's actually the marketing uh lady, she sees everyone and we you know, she can.
\n\nStuart: You know if, if somebody from a foreign country you know, we can we can just tell that you know they want us to send it you know there's a lot of spam, you know and robots and whatever.
\n\nLee: So she sees every one of those and it does ask how did you hear about us? Now, on our front end we have a call-in sheet that Ms Deborah asked and she goes through all of those and right on there she's instructed and she does a good job at this. The Columbo question If you remember Columbo, he was almost out the door and he'd ask one more question.
\n\nStuart: Right, one more thing, yeah, one more thing.
\n\nLee: So oh, by the way, how'd you hear about us?
\n\nStuart: And so yeah, that was written down every time yeah, those, um, this idea of getting out in front of audiences and understanding where they are, so the kind of connection between the doctor, surgery and people being there for health and more might be something that they're interested in. Does that go broader than that? Do you have other examples or the other, because you've been doing this for a while? So is it an easy thought process to think, okay, there's this group of people who might be the perfect match of clients and they're in this space. Is it easy for you to think about where they are? Or was that that doctor's surgery example? Was that the response, the, the outcome of like some dedicated thinking and like a brain trust for a period of time?
\n\nLee: I don't. I don't remember the thought process at the time. Um, you know, entrepreneurs have way too many ideas, but that they don't ever follow through, right, uh, so a lot of times, a lot of our business also comes from people who are in the real estate business, either from the real estate agents or inspectors.
\n\nSo yes we go to realtors offices and mention, you know, mention what we do and how it benefits them to maybe have the owner re-look at the house and make sure they have a chance to make any adjustments before somebody else comes in and wants to lower the price because they found or won't walk away because of mold, so we can do pre-inspection there. Found or won't walk away because of mold, so we can do pre-inspection there. Or if somebody on the other side, if somebody's buying, then a special Alabama is not one of those that requires a mold inspection. Other states do, but a lot of people who are moving in just assume they're going to get that in a radon test.
\n\nAnd so they ask for it and I'm on the rolodex of uh, probably out of 150 inspectors in in town, I'm probably on the rolodex of probably a good 30 or 40 of them okay, yeah and gee, I recorded a podcast yesterday so it'll probably be the show before this as people are listening to it, but a couple of weeks ahead of where we're talking today.
\n\nStuart: So Jeff Klein, who I was talking to yesterday, helps business owners who and try to kind of like transition into speaking events and and not to become professional speakers, but kind of like as a lead generation type thing.
\n\nSo he had a list and again, if if people have been watching along, they'll have seen it last week. But he had a list and again, if people have been watching along, they'll have seen it last week but he had a list where he documented all of the Chamber of Commerce meetings, all of the I forget what else was on the list now, but there were several of these kind of industry organizations that had a mandate for bringing speakers in for their guests, that had a mandate for bringing speakers in for their guests, and then the premise was, of course, if you have a book, you've already got the majority of a delivery there, and now you've also got a book as the call to action, the next step. So is that something that you've explored or had opportunity to do? Kind of speak to those you mentioned the realtors, like speak at a realtor organization or the inspectors I'm would have the same thing or even Chamber of Commerce.
\n\nLee: Right, I have not done Chamber of Commerce, I have done Building Code. Now, that's an odd bunch. They are really, really to the, because I took my code book. He had his code book and he's saying, well, look here it says this. I said, well, I understand, but over here it says I can't do this.
\n\nAnd so once he saw, I knew what I was doing and I says I am not doing anything to detrimentally hurt the house, it's only an improvement. What you, the way you want, it is great, but this is better and right. And then I and I brought out, you know, magazines and other organizations who said the same thing and he, finally, he finally acquiesced, he, it took him, it took two or three weeks before we came to. But would you know, but did you, would you know that he called me the next year. He says, mr Raymond, would you come and talk to our association of building? It was, you know, about 20 different cities who come together every other month and they just had, you know, meeting three that kind of thing.
\n\nSo it just sort of again being able to get in front of the right people, because change is hard. People don't like change.
\n\nAnd the way that we can take care of crawl spaces is change from what the codes say and it leaves the house, you know, cleaner and more healthier, doesn't smell and, you know, saves the energy. All these different things. After we removed the mold, we changed the environment of the crawl space so the rest of the house gets healthier. But that changes hard of the crawl space, so the the rest of the house gets healthier. But that's right. Change is hard and so again.
\n\nStuart: Uh, you, sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in yeah, and people admit some initial responses, particularly, I think, where there is this kind of confrontation type industry of the building respectors someone's trying to do this and they've got to be led through the law. No, it has to be this way around. Or, um, when changes come through, there's either it changes a whole load of practices underneath or there's some conflict about whether it's changing to a or b. So I think people's natural response sometimes is that no, push away or stand off first.
\n\nBut the illustration that you gave there is perfect in this idea of conversation starting. We're usually talking about it in terms of clients and that kind of funnel, but this conversation starting with other industry professionals and that cohort of peers where there is a relationship that can be developed over time, and the fact that a book exists and brings all of that information together in a way that is either a backup to a conversation that's had or a next step or it just brings it together. All of these conversations start and lead towards things further down the track and I think throughout all of this conversation that's what's really resonated and I hope it resonates for listeners is you've brought together this information in something that is a book that's got more authority than if you had it in a different format, but it really lays the ground for this longer term relationship with people and and just kicks everything off on the right foot and and takes that brings people along with you, whether that's clients or partners or collaborators. It's just such a great way of doing it. Time's flown by. What were you going to say there?
\n\nLee: I usually hand it to a customer in a sleeve like this very cheap Alibaba or something like that. That adds value. They feel like it's been and plus, mine were getting all you know wrinkly and in the car, so this is preserved the way they look. So if you carry them around and that added that's a to me that was just a nice little yeah again.
\n\nStuart: I'm pretty sure I'm going to call this podcast something to do with guerrilla marketing, because these ideas are fantastic. That extra thought process. When you think about who your clients are, that the baseline is health concerns. When they're thinking about mold, they're already thinking about kind of like the hazmat suits and the breathing apparatus and that's their mental space. So you giving someone it's like the whole covid when you went to hotel rooms in covid like increasingly everything was individually wrapped and separated because the, the psyche, the mentality was like this protection I want. There's something out there that's trying to get me that your clients are already in that brain space to a certain degree. So the fact that you've given it to them in that plastic wrap that has a subconscious element of hygiene and we're we're thinking about this type of thing, I mean what a fantastic extra step oh they, less than a penny a bag, you know, in bulk right right.
\n\nThis will definitely circle back in a few months and talk about some more of these ideas in. In some give people some more ideas that you're going through, but the it's such a heavy lift for people. So if they're thinking about doing a book by themselves, that's the most difficult way of doing it. I understand that some people do it that way, but it's the most difficult. Working with us is a much lighter lift, but there's still some. You've got to put some mental effort into it exactly, and it's the most disappointing thing that you think people get to the end of the process and they kind of think, oh, thank goodness for that. Now it's done and you don't see people doing things with it.
\n\nOnce this is created, I mean, give yourself a week off if you want, but come back to it and then think, okay, I've now got this asset. What are all of the ways that I can use this asset in the most effective way? Is it physical? Is it digital? If it's digital, which format? Going back to the pdf versus page, turn the conversation. If I'm at a conference, do I want to give them a copy of the conference or just make it easy for them to get a copy if they're coming in and I'm asking them where they heard about us identifying that they did come through the book or didn't come through the book, how does that change the follow-up in the conversation, whether it makes sense to text them or email them, all of these things about. I've now have a series of assets and how can I use those to the best degree possible? Just that little bit of extra effort and attention and and using it I mean it can really make a huge amount of difference for people.
\n\nLee: Right, but once this gets, once I feel like it's left the nest. You know it's on its own and I've got all the because. Here's a damaging admission my weakness is one of the campaigns I plan to do next, and I haven't got to it yet is I'm going to go back to all my a chance, one of the first chances to have this new book and your free copy. So I'm, I'm, I'm lack on that. That's, that's a future project for me. So everybody's got something to prove on right.
\n\nStuart: Like you said before. I mean there's entrepreneurs, business owners. We've got more ideas than we have time to execute on them, so everyone's got. Everyone's got a list of things we should. We'll talk after we wrap up for a second, but we should talk about having a strategy. Call about that, because we've got lots of experience of doing that with people, so we can do that and maybe we can use that as the example to circle back in six months or so and do an update show just to give people some more ideas and go a little bit deeper on the ones that we've tried. Before we wrap, I want to make sure that people have got opportunity to find out more about you and the organization there, so where's a good place for people to go to learn more?
\n\nLee: Okay, if you want the book itself, I have a dedicated website called freemoldbookcom. Dedicated website called freemoldbookcom. My website is alabamamoldcom. Alabamamoldcom, pretty simple. It is geographically confining a little bit. But rest assured, if you are from out of state and you decide you want a book, that's fine, you're going to get it. You know you're going to get a PDF and we look forward to answering any questions. And for all of your readers and listeners and viewers and so forth, I'm just going to say I've already got a swipe file. I've already stuffed on my second book. I'm going to do a book for lake owners and the humidity problems that go with lakes. Ah, fantastic.
\n\nBut, so I would just suggest that go ahead and take the first step. The book will pay its weight in gold and dividends.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, I mean, for anyone who's ever thought about mold issues. I mean, as you say, there's pages and pages of your expertise and experience in there that will help them out and to see it as an example of how you're using it to engage customers and start that conversation. Perfect for that as well. I'll make sure that there are links to um, to those web pages and to your linkedin profile as well. I'll put all of those in the show notes so, as people are watching and listening on the podcast player or on the website, there'll be links straight through.
\n\nI'll put, as I mentioned, I'll put those images you sent through in the show notes as well. So I'm not sure I think they show up in most podcast players not iTunes, but most podcast players. I think they do, but I'll put them on the website as well. So another reason for people to head across there. Lee, fantastic, this has gone so fast. I really love just the implementation of this and the ideas again out there, because it's one thing to create something and I think the process that we've talked about in our process helps you to create the best thing possible but it's another thing to actually be out there using it in all of these fantastic ways to start the conversation.
\n\nLee: So I'm sure you've made a book. Don't let it sit on on the shelf. Get it out there yeah, exactly, exactly.
\n\nStuart: Well, thank you again, really appreciate your time thank you.
\n\nLee: Thank you, I appreciate it.
\n\nStuart: Privilege been a real privilege um it's a pleasure and we'll definitely circle back in a couple of months and do a follow-up. So, everyone, make sure you subscribe to the show and check in for the emails, because spam's an issue these days and mailboxes don't always want to deliver emails. So make sure that you're checking out things and then we'll catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today, on the Book More Show, I learned valuable business-building strategies from Lee Ramey's experience when He transformed his cleaning company into a leading mold remediation service. \r\n\r\nHe discusses his journey of self-education in the 1980s to become an expert and how overcoming challenges like influencing industry categories helped establish authority. \r\n\r\nWe discuss educational materials and how they can empower consumers and validate health concerns, highlighting Lee's commitment to being education-focused rather than sales-driven. \r\n\r\nWe, also, touched on his insights on book publishing, from writing and design to creative marketing tactics, and provided a framework for leveraging expertise through informative content. \r\n","date_published":"2024-08-31T07:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/9adb561b-84a6-4d3d-935a-d0d936decf06.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":66384540,"duration_in_seconds":4149}]},{"id":"baa427b8-3905-4162-a9a7-38efa523dc10","title":"Ep172: Boosting Your Personal Brand with Aubrey Berkowitz","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/172","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday, on the Book More Show, I spoke with Aubrey Berkowitz of Alter Endeavors and Armada Digital. He shared how thought leaders, authors, and speakers can establish an online presence that strengthens their distinct brand and captures qualified leads. \n\nWe explored the evolution of personal branding in a post-pandemic digital world and the vital role of a focused online platform. Aubrey also provided proven conversion strategies for driving speaking opportunities through tailored pitches and comprehensive, accessible content that pre-qualifies the speaker. \n\nLastly, we discussed leveraging books and other assets to build online credibility and maintain an authentic personal voice in today's AI-influenced landscape.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n In this episode, Aubrey Berkowitz from Alter Endeavors and Armada Digital discusses the transformation of personal brand websites from static brochures to dynamic lead generation hubs.\n We explore how personal branding has gained increased importance in the post-pandemic digital landscape, emphasizing the necessity for a strong online presence to maintain professional relationships and verify referrals.\n Aubrey and I highlight the significance of having accessible and comprehensive content to pre-qualify thought leaders for speaking engagements, differentiating between pitching to end audiences and gatekeepers.\n The conversation delves into the strategic use of books and other content assets to build authority, drive organic traffic, and the competitive advantage held by legacy players in ranking content online.\n We discuss the psychological benefits of offering varied content formats, such as books, newsletters, and e-learning courses, to build trust and facilitate decision-making for potential clients.\n The episode touches on the importance of personalized website navigation and landing page strategies, noting that the homepage is not always the primary entry point for visitors.\n Aubrey emphasizes the role of a well-crafted online platform in establishing a distinct personal brand, which is crucial for individuals in diverse fields like private equity and banking.\n We examine the balance between leveraging AI for content creation and maintaining authenticity in personal branding, noting the growing societal ability to recognize AI-generated content.\n The discussion covers the concept of \"paid lead generation\" through speaking engagements, where the true value lies in ongoing relationships and engagements built from these opportunities.\n We underscore the importance of making it easy for decision-makers to see the value in hiring speakers or thought leaders by providing comprehensive, accessible information about their work and value proposition.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/172\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nAubrey Berkowitz:\nWebsite: Armada Digital Agency | \nLinkedIn: Aubrey Berkowitz\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n \n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nAubrey: So knowing what that end conversion is usually dictates the path we take, because there's different areas of attack that you can go about it as a speaker and a thought leader too. Now, going back to it again, there's going to have to be critical assets, because if there isn't some kind of asset, you're only pitching yourself and you're relying on a heavy amount of your personal brand, having already done the lifting. \n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Aubrey Berkowitz. Aubrey, how are you doing? \n\nAubrey: Doing. Great thanks for having me, stuart, appreciate your time. \n\nStuart: Pleasure buddy. I'm looking forward to this set this scene for people so we know each other. We've had a few calls and there's such a great crossover between the businesses. I think this is really going to be an interesting podcast for people, because it's going to be ones that are directly applicable, like sometimes we're talking about subjects that are maybe slightly not es esoteric, but maybe one level removed, but I think this is something that's going to be 100% on mark for everyone listening. So why don't we start, give a bit of a background about you and the company and then we'll go from there? \n\nAubrey: Yeah, my name is Aubrey Berkowitz. I'm the managing partner of Alter Endeavors, which is a digital lead generation company, as well as Armada Digital, which is a hosting and ongoing support company. We help authors and speakers and thought leaders build out online platforms and lead generation strategies to help. Whether that's driving more speaking engagements, whether that's adding to your newsletter, taking a book to market, whatever that final conversion point might be, we help speakers and thought leaders build their personal brand. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Such an interesting this idea of the specific use case for the asset. It's something that we talk about a lot in terms of books traditional books people think about a build it once and they will come, or it's a thing that sits on the shelf and maybe serves several purposes, but we're really talking about that specific purpose for you guys. I know a lot of the conversations that we've had have been specifically around that book web, book-based website to promote that brand and build the build that asset as a lead generation tool. Obviously, websites aren't anything new for people we're 2024 now, so they've been around for a little while but I think people still approach it as an afterthought or something that's trying to serve absolutely every purpose. For a lot of people that you're working with, the websites that you're building, do these tend to sit in addition to other websites that people have got, or are they the main and only one that people are using that people other websites that people have got, or are they the main and only one that people are using? \n\nAubrey: So it's interesting. You brought up kind of the historical background of how we view websites, because the online world has changed so quickly in the last few years. We're having your own digital online. Let's call it a town hall, a hub, a platform is now more important than ever because when we're talking about thought leadership and when we're talking about driving leads and conversions, ultimately that has to happen somewhere. So the website now, rather than being a brochure, rather than just being purely informational, has turned into an area rich for conversions, for speakers, for thought leaders, for consultants, for fractions. So that's the shift that we're seeing is that these strategies that might have seemed like afterthoughts have become even more important as we're transitioning to an even more digital world. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and the kind of fracturing of those presences and almost people's ownership. I mean kind of think about it from a couple of perspectives either if you're a employee and trying to be a specialist in your area and there might be a positive interest that you want to move elsewhere and promote yourself, or there might be the kind of negative side of layoffs happen and you might find yourself on the outs before you realize it. Establishing your presence separate from the company presence is important. And then from an entrepreneur, business leader, founder perspective, the turnover of businesses is much faster than it was before. Brands reposition or pivot or whatever positive or negative reason for it. But having an entity which is you and people can build that rapport with you and then as the other things move, you're still you. \n\nAubrey: That is so much more important now than the last couple of years absolutely, because you look at the way and let's talk about some of the more niche instances where this is very applicable. So let's talk about if you are someone that's in maybe the private equity space right, you might be work, you might have an interest in 10 different companies, or you might have written three different books. So how do we bring that all together, right? And how do we bring together maybe, things that might have a different content to them, right? And maybe you're an author that speaks in different areas of leadership? \n\nHaving that online hub, having that personal brand, like you mentioned, is a way to differentiate yourself. Banking is another example where we see this. Bank presidents, you're able to go and create your own business, hunt your own business, but people recognize you as the brand. So how do we maintain that? But also, at the same time, create a lead generation environment that can contribute to both, too right, and can contribute to multiple areas that you might be involved in? And again, that speaks back to the new critical importance of having a personal brand website, to the new critical importance of having a personal brand website. If I were a car dealer 15 years ago, it's not as important as it is now, where we still want to shop local, we still want to have a relationship with the people. So that personal brand site also functions as a way for people to verify their referrals. \n\nStuart: Right and to that point you're making now about the people still want to shop local. \n\nThey still want to have a relationship with a person. \n\nThat almost the change in the last couple of years, kind of post-pandemic, and more and more people working from home although I mean that might be changing slightly, but still it's much more of a separated place that we're in now rather than the workspace where everyone is in the same place and when you meet you ask what they do and they talk about their job or their role, having the person piece tied to it. \n\nIt's, I mean, in marketing, what we've said for years that people buy from people, they don't buy from companies, whether that's at the macro level and thinking about brands and big identities, down to the kind of micro level of the transaction and you get a rapport with the person who you're dealing with on the phone and that idea we work with a lot of realtors in another part of the business but the idea that you become their guy. A very good friend of mine, jim hacking, is our immigration attorney, so he's the go-to guy when I think immigration facilities. I think Jim, he occupies that spot in my brain, so the same ability to build that personal place where people can go and feel like they've got a relationship with you. \n\nAubrey: And we've just moved Stuart to such an online content driven world as well, where unbranded searches at the highest percentage it's ever been, and what unbranded means is that people are searching for terms and phrases around subject matter rather than just company names. So it builds further to what you're saying and we love to quote do our own research. What does do our own research mean? Right, it inevitably means we're going to go back to Google or we're going to go online, because we are now trained and conditioned to know how to actually use the internet to achieve the goals we want. My five-year-old nephew now understands how to use an iPad and understands that he can search the internet for YouTube videos or other content mechanisms that he enjoys, and the future generations are growing up with that baseline. \n\nThey're growing up with the baseline that you and I had of let's go to the library. Well, that library is now online and it's infinite. \n\nStuart: Right actually that's a great example. So our youngest is uh 14, almost 15, and just graduating at eighth grade, so he's getting a. He's had an ipad for a little while, but he's getting a phone finally. So he's very excited about that. But when we're out and about or when he's not near the ipad, he'll ask something and he'll either say let me borrow your phone or right, yeah watch us as we're typing the search if he's in the back of the car on the other side of the room. \n\nWe're just trying to do it and whenever I do it or his mom does it, he always says we get a response and he always queries it. Well, let me see what you type. Let me see what you type. Yes absolutely. \n\nBecause you and I came up in a kind of more Boolean type world of typing in Google searches, where we're trying to guess what the I don't know if I mean it was an algorithm, but you wouldn't necessarily have called it an algorithm back then we're trying to guess what search parameters will yield the best results, whereas if you see the natural language way that they search today, they're just typing in as if you're asking a question. As it moves more towards voice, that's just even become more prevalent. So you were mentioning about the natural language search and the unbranded search and people just querying this online assistant to find the things. If you as a presence are there, someone might remember your name, we might remember the subject you're related. To start searching that, going down that rabbit hole if you don't have anything related to you and they're missing the connection with the brand. It's a gap that's going to get more and more pronounced over time. I think absolutely, and there are internets and they're missing the connection with the brand. \n\nAubrey: It's a gap that's going to get more and more pronounced over time. I think Absolutely, and there are internet statistics online statistics that show the difference in what you're mentioning as well. So your son's generation is 18% more likely to focus on local search than our generation is. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nAubrey: And where this also comes into play is how you mentioned how they approach search terms. So we used to I don't know if you remember the original Ask Jeeves, but it was term comma right and we tried to match like you said. But the younger generations, they're searching for content around key phrases Now, taking a step back. For speakers and thought leaders and authors, this is an amazing opportunity Because it means suddenly the content that we create is exponentially more relevant in search. Now, we've all seen the search algorithms using AI. They've been using AI for years, they always will be. But even now, when they're integrating AI into the Google search, it's pulling from content and it's pulling from the content we create on the internet. \n\nSo, there's untapped potential now to utilize your content in a way to where you can drive people back to your actual platform. Now how do we all make it come together with the book? Right, the book is the richest source of content that you can create. Book, right, the book is the richest source of content that you can create. Yeah, it exists, and you can then take pieces from your book that you know are relevant, write content around that and create an ecosystem to where we're driving results that are relevant to the subject you actually talk about. \n\nStuart: Yeah, actually that's a great bridge, because we obviously don't do anything with websites at all. \n\nThat's out well outside of our scope of interest. \n\nBut we're definitely encouraging people to, now that you've done the work of creating the content, take that content and amplify it elsewhere and elsewhere. \n\nIt makes perfect sense that it's on their own site. So the idea of let me use the scorecard book as an example so the scorecard book has eight steps in there, eight building blocks of a book. Those eight things are pieces within their own right, so to be able to either take the raw content or take the idea of the content and then elaborate and expand on it. And because these books are created based on the things that you know so well in your head, and a book is a relatively confined, one of the elements in there is specifically beneficial constraints. So we actively try and keep people constrained so that the project gets completed. But any one of those elements that you're talking about, as a business owner who's been doing this for a couple of years, you can talk and write and develop and expand on those individual pieces out of an item, almost. So the website seems like the perfect place to then, if you're doing that work to then bring it together. \n\nAubrey: Absolutely, and the advantage, like we said, of a personal brand site is that you can have different books on your site that all relate to what you do overall, rather than branding your site around the book and I know we're kind of tiptoeing around it, but we keep mentioning the importance of books, and if the one major determining factor we've seen for consultants to have the most success is do you have a book, do you have something that you're saying in the market that is unique? So where the opportunity then lies is let's take this personal brand you're starting to build and let's build out some of the ancillary funnels of it too. Let's have community built around your book to where we can actually start getting to those what I call late end conversions, late end conversion being a consulting gig, a speaking gig or wherever the monetization really comes in comes in. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting that the idea of people wanting to speak, particularly at the beginning, unless they've got a very established track record and kind of they've got a demand created so people are coming to them. \n\nFor the rest of us it's probably less that there might be some referrals and there's a bit more kind of relationship capital passed down, that down that connection. But for everyone else it's kind of putting the passed down that connection, but for everyone else it's kind of putting the opportunity out there and hoping that someone will respond and pick up to it. And again, speakers are the same. By having that, I almost imagine that it's the case that if you pitch to a organization that's looking for a speaker and they then look for you and you don't have anything out there, even if you had the best pitch deck or presentation on paper, if they're not actually looking for you and seeing something that's out there, that's reinforcing that this is something that you can do. I imagine that's like a resume problem of kind of yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. You just filtered out at the first. \n\nAubrey: It's an audience problem too, because what we see a lot of times is speakers and thought leaders. \n\nWe like to think about where everyone can get passionate about what we talk about. \n\nIn business, we can all get passionate about it. \n\nWe can, and sometimes people can deliver the most amazing speech ever, right? But we're thinking about it of the audience being who we're actually talking to, as, as a speaker, the audience is not the one booking you. There's going to be somebody in the organization and they're going to have to go back to their board and justify your cost and justify your value. Now, unless they've heard you speak before, and even if they had, what are they going to use to go back to their people? It might be a pitch deck, sure, but everyone now expects to be able to go online and again going back to doing your own homework, being able to find something on that person, on their personal brand, being able to engage with their content, whether it's download a chapter of the book, whether it's join a newsletter, join a newsletter. These are all things now that, by doing it the right way, you can pre-qualify yourself when it actually gets to the point where the speaking decision is being made and who's speaking is being right that principal agent problem. \n\nStuart: If you've got the, there's a disconnect between the end audience and the gatekeeping audience of who's actually buying. \n\nYeah right that's another reason why it's such a great opportunity to speak together, because we're so aligned on this approach. The amount of times that we talk to people about a book project and then go through that, that, that initial ideation point of, okay, well, who's the ideal prospect? Okay, within that ideal prospect group, are they the end users or are they the end customers? Because that might be a different group. And where it is different, it's very important to make sure that you're either could be the right answer, but you're pitching it at the right level and you understand the impact, the downstream impact, of what you're setting up. \n\nThe really interesting one is and again this is a bit out of scope of of what we're talking about but you can imagine a scenario where people, once they understand that there's a gatekeeper in place, there's an agent in place between them and the people that they're ultimately delivering to, but that presentation of the package, that value proposition that you're putting out there, if you can address that, both of those markets, by saying here's what I'll deliver to your end customers, but here's what I'm delivering to you to make the decision as easy as possible and overwhelming the evidence for each step, it only takes a little bit of orchestration, to separate yourself from the crowd, because I think the majority of people don't do that. They're just focused on what they do and they're in that mindset of well, I do it and I'm passionate about it and I'm the best, so everyone else should just understand and jump on board. \n\nAubrey: Yeah, and I can speak about what I talk about every day, right. And then the other trap kind of bringing back to what we had discussed a little bit earlier is so, once your presentation's done, having a book as a leave behind piece is something that these program coordinators all prioritize, because they want to keep continuing to provide value to their audience, to their users. I'm going to use a hospital association as an example, because we have a client that's a speaker for hospital associations and what he's been able to do is leave them behind with materials that consistently provide value beyond just what he speaks about. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nAubrey: And that's where the real late stage rich conversions come in. For consultants, right I almost like to think of it as you're speaking is sometimes just your paid lead generation. If you're a thought leader right, you're just paid to hopefully get an ongoing engagement with somebody that you're speaking to. But that only happens if you're providing value, right, and if you're providing something that they can take back with them. Whether that's a book, whether that's joining a newsletter community, whatever that might be providing the value is the real way to engage and create longstanding customers as well. \n\nYeah, I don't know if that's the same for you, but I don't see the very many people getting rich off just the book anymore right, exactly, and the with the speaking has been the gateway. \n\nStuart: It's the start of the conversation. For us, our whole model is it's according to the phrase of the conversation starting book is exactly that premise. It's the start of the conversation that leads to something else, saying that the book isn't the product, the conversation from the book is the product, and the same with the speaking element and the same with the website. All of these things can layer in to reinforce the credibility or the ease at which someone gets to say yes, particularly when you're dealing with employees of an organization where it's their job to to book these people or to make these engagement pieces, because they're not as, on the one hand, they're not as passionately engaged with the outcome as an owner might be that, hopefully, they're still good at their job and they're passionate about their job, but there is a difference, but then also they're doing this every day, so they've got 100. \n\nFocus on this particular role and as much as you can streamline that for people and make it an easy decision to say yes to. There was a. I was on a call earlier today and a similar call last week where the person was talking about a conversion heuristic and I have it written down but it's on my other desk so I'll try and remember it for the I've never heard of this term, so I'm fascinated real quick so he was talking about conversions and get into a yes. \n\nSo the outcome of a yes is a multiple of four times the motivation, so 4m um plus 2v, which is two times the value proposition plus two times the incentive or the ease of use of doing whatever the action is, but then minus any friction and any anxiety. \n\nAubrey: And I butchered that a little bit isn't it funny how conversions have become so math-like. You know we think about it as so much psychology and so much people, but there's still an underlying element of math to it. \n\nStuart: Right, there's that art and science, but there's definitely a decent amount of science that you can test against. So all of those things the motivation, the value proposition, the ease of the incentive to actually click, whatever the thing is against the friction and the anxiety, whatever we can do to ease that overall completion whether it's on a webpage or whether it's putting a speaker proposal out, or whether it's standing on stage and delivering the material and then leaving people with a book which reduces anxiety, which removes friction, increases value proposition, leading someone to an author website or your particular brand where you have the whole world view of the thing that you offer. Easily presenting people, whichever way they come into it, easily presenting them with the next step all of these things are kind of levers that we can pull to streamline the whole process. So when you're dealing with people, how many people come with a very clear idea of what they want to do, versus they've kind of got a loose idea of the outcome that they want and you've got to guide people towards making it to that finish line. \n\nAubrey: That's a great question, because speakers, thought leaders, authors are very particular about their content. So typically we'll find that people have that I want to say blue sky ready in their mind right of what that looks like. Now the interesting thing is that not every speaker is going to be set up for the same late stage conversions. You know, if you're someone that is focused on retirement planning, you know you're going to be much more focused on getting consultations with maybe an entire company to set up their benefits and so on and so forth. So knowing what that end conversion is usually dictates the path we take, because there's different areas of attack that you can go about it as a speaker and a thought leader too. Now, going back to it again, there's going to have to be critical assets, because if there isn't some kind of asset, you're only pitching yourself and you're relying on a heavy amount of your personal brand, having already done the lifting. \n\nAnd that's something that we all like to think. We're known in our industry, but if you look at the Google search volume, for most companies the founder is probably the seventh or eighth term that they're the highest position for. So you're still getting traffic off of yourself, but there's that opportunity to branch off and really create something of your own. Create something of your own. So typically there's also steps as well. Right, maybe I'm looking to host event series and I want to have my book be a part of that promotion, or maybe I want to build a community, but it all always comes back to what that end point conversion is. The biggest problem I see speakers and thought leaders fall into. The biggest trap, I guess, is the idea that my content alone, just what I say, can drive an entire personal brand. That's only half true. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nAubrey: Because there still has to be some kind of ongoing conversation, like you're saying, to where we're still elaborating every day and training our audience every day and nurturing that audience to where, when we have them come back to the personal brand and site, they're actually ready to convert. Whether that's sign up for a speaking engagement book for press, is a big one in that nature. If you're using a PR company, they're almost always going to insist you have a personal brand website. They're going to insist that you have things like press and media. And where does all that live? So that's really where it all starts. For us is that personal brand platform allows you to have the legs to do other things beyond just what you say and lead generation. \n\nStuart: Right. So the people who are kind of consuming the site, the people on the other side, is there any? I'm trying to ask a question in a way that isn't the obvious answer. It's different for every person. Are there any trends, I guess, around what people are looking for now? So if, when I'm thinking about the people who've written books with us over the years, there's that mix of kind of very small independent financial advisors to larger business owners who are looking to establish more of a movement or a different way of approaching things, the kind of manifesto type book of how we're planting a flag in the ground of doing things differently, so the people who are coming to those websites, the information they're trying to consume, is going to be a mix of potential clients but then potential network partners or people who are, who can kind of amplify that message out in the broader world. So is there any kind of trends on the types of information that people are wanting to see when they come to that site? Will be that everyone's different? \n\nAubrey: Yeah, absolutely. I think that there are several things lately, and I'm going to take this in two steps, because, with the platform there are, because I see this as a two-part answer. With the platform, there are certain things that if you are trying to be a speaker or a thought leader, it is almost essential to have. One of them is, you know, press kits on your actual site. If you give presentations, having unique URLs for your presentations so that you can drive traffic specifically to that Small things, even though, like having your headshot, we see that all the time where they won't have their headshot. But a streamlined experience once someone gets to your site is the first step of this answer. \n\nNow, in terms of what people are searching for, we get to put our math hats back on again, because the way that people search is always changing. We mentioned the more of the unbranded traffic, but there are several factors to consider in your organic traffic. The first is how much volume is there, right? So how many people search over a 30-day period? The second being okay, what is the competitive density? So how many people search over a 30-day period? The second being okay, what is the competitive density? So how many of my competitors are trying to rank for this term and then Google will actually give a score for the term of how difficult it is to rank for. So we want to act almost like a financial planner here, where there's going to be some terms that are worth the optimization for and some that we might say there's less traffic but it's less competitive. \n\nNow, backing up. What does that mean? Well, again, with math, 65% of Google search results end in the first three results. 80% end in the first five. Once you get to page two, you are getting five to 7% of total traffic. So if you pick a term where you're going to be on page two but there's, you know, a hundred thousand searches, that might not actually be worth it because you might not be getting enough of that math. So what we look at now is the actual trends and we pull the data and what we've seen overall is that people are searching for specific content around their pain points. So with the book, what pain point do you answer? What are you alleviating and what value are you providing? Then let's start focusing on optimizing towards that. \n\nStuart: And it's such a great example of A why it's difficult for people to do themselves. Now it's such a complicated and busy space. To be able to rank for anything by yourself is probably difficult for someone coming in today. Now there's going to be legacy players who did do it themselves and they've got the benefit of age and kind of holding that ground initially. Kind of holding that ground initially. \n\nBut for someone starting from scratch it is pretty challenging, I think, to have a map of, to be able to see that landscape and the map of which ones are worth it and which ones aren't. And then the other point that I really love and again it's one of the reasons why books are so valuable is this idea of topic bridging. You've written 60, 70, 80 pages worth of stuff that's in your wheelhouse, in your ballpark, but there might be four, five, six, slightly longer tail keywords that are accessible and worth doing. That you might struggle to come across yourself, but working with someone like you guys, you can then take the existing content that you've got and then bridge it into a relevant search term, and it's a much easier job of doing the bridging work rather than looking at a blank page and thinking I've got to create this thing from scratch. \n\nSo it just gives so many opportunities to leverage the work that you've done into this whole other realm of optimization and organic traffic, and then, as we were saying earlier, the specific outreach and the dedicated pieces that you do. It's kind of, once you've done that work, it just opens up so many opportunities. And the underlying tentpole piece is a book which in and of itself has an outsized authority compared with the same information in a video or on a web page. Again, there might be good use cases for doing those things as well, but the fact that it comes back to the book, it's just a disproportionate advantage, I think, particularly while still I mean books are getting more and more popular for people to do, but still it's a small minority of people who actually do it. \n\nAubrey: You know, something I've always found interesting too is that authors in general and maybe it's just the ability of writers, right, in general authors have an easier time relating and explaining the audience for a book than on the website. So what we found is that by pulling content from the book, that's easy, blog material that can be repurposed, that's already been used or it can be managed in different ways to where we already understand who the audience is. And the pain point is Because you mentioned it, there are legacy players. Yes, that happens. Your social media can actually be a huge driver now, depending on what platform you're on, if you're on Twitter, if you're on LinkedIn something that can be a huge organic driver. \n\nBut at the end of the day, people, we use websites now as a tool. Websites are not just brochures. We as a society, go to a website with an expectation that we can accomplish a goal, and if your personal brand site doesn't accomplish a goal that leads to conversions and leads to more business, it's just a missed opportunity. In general, right, and like you said, that book often bridges the gap, because the book reinforces your authority each step of the way while someone's engaging with your personal brand. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it does kind of accelerate the whole know, like and trust process. Now you've got a place where people can, one place that's convenient, that people can learn more. It brings it all together and, whatever the touch point is into that world, you're always presenting people with the next step and, in a way, that kind of builds on the authority and credibility because you've managed and brought together specifically the journey that you want to bring together for that audience. You talked about having unique urls for things. \n\nWhen you're out there reaching to people, one of the things I've said to people for the longest time is, if you have the opportunity, if you know you're addressing an audience, one of the easiest ways to do is give people a copy of the book in the first instance, if you feel like there's any friction to asking them to name an email to download it, but then say, hey, actually we've only got 20 minutes here on stage, but I actually recorded a bit of a deeper dive on one of the main subjects in a video and head over to this page and get a copy of it there. \n\nSo, again, using the assets that you've got the speech that you're delivering, the email that you're sending, the book that you've sent out, but personalizing it with a note and then delivering more information to just use a small step, that again has a larger amplification of that personal connection, because all of it is about personal connection. We're really trying to make that, make a person feel welcome and that we can help them, and we're enthusiastic to help them. So as much as possible we can make a conversational conversion, a one-to-one relationship. Even if that one-to-one is at scale, then it just oils the wheel so much more. \n\nAubrey: Yeah, absolutely, and you talk about just building that authenticity too. \n\nRight, and one of the big trends we saw out of the pandemic was people trying to move towards a e-learning or some kind of virtual learning as a consultant, because the idea was oh well, we can sell 10,000 licenses. That also relies, though, on having built that authority. It relies on having something that you can say like, and the best example I've seen that works is actually taking chapters out of your book and building an e-learning course out of that and the book as a side-by-side material, because we all want to create these different sticky mechanisms to keep people within our funnel, within our environment, within our ecosystem. But the interesting thing is, to this day, people still are willing to make the commitment on a book over an e-learning class, regardless of the cost. Cost nine times out of ten. So it's an interesting thing we're having the partnership works, but if we're trying to just pull and be an e-learning or, you know, having that virtual classroom type, there's still got to be some kind of legitimate content associated to it, right? \n\nStuart: yeah, it's two things that spring to mind, as you mentioned. That is one, this idea of minimum viable commitment. We call it when we're talking about books on the back cover, this idea of the small step, the smallest viable step that moves people towards a buying decision, to be able to give someone the book, which is the overview. And yes, there'll be a certain amount of people that don't take any steps more than just request the book. But they would probably never your clients anyway. It's a very tiny minority of people who would read the content that was in there and then think, okay, I'm done, now I don't need anything else. It's a disproportionately larger majority that will consume the content there and realize, oh, this is the starting point, and now I need to go to the next one and the book has done that kind of conversion or compelling piece for you to move them forward. \n\nAnd then the second point that you mentioned is the backup or the reinforcing element of multiple formats, so to have a book as a follow-along, even if people don't actually read it. There's a psychological again. I was on a call earlier today. Actually, I wrote down because I thought I need to remember this because I'm going to use it yeah, this happens to me all the time. \n\nIt's normal, right right, yeah, unless I write down, it disappears again. So the person was talking about landing page conversions and we were running through some older landing pages and the language that was on there and there was a longer piece and someone commented well, that's a long piece, I'm not sure that someone's going to read it. Or there was. It was, uh, adding reinforcing elements to the page. So there was the copy and then the bullets and then some overcoming objections and some logos, icons for credibility and some testimonials, and someone made the comment oh, there's a lot of stuff there. It'll take a long time for someone to read through it. \n\nSo the comment was that I don't want to teach people to read. I want to compel them to make a decision. And those things that are on the page, or if there's an e-learning course and the fact that a book is there to back it up, it's not necessarily that you're trying to create more content than they're actually going to consume. It's that you want to add to the value proposition so that it compels them to take the decision, and the decision then moves them on to the next step and they may never revisit some of these issues or some of these elements, but it just builds on this momentum of yes towards that decision point and we know from you know, obviously, the thousands of years of mankind that there's really three things that lead people to buy. \n\nAubrey: Right, there's the do I trust you? The authority, are you saying the right thing and is it easy for me to make the decision in the conversion point, right there? So when we're thinking even about web user flow, there's almost a narrative we want to build on a page, and if it takes a little, want to build on a page, and if it takes a little longer to build that narrative that includes those three things, that's fine, as long as there's a conversion point. Now, at the same time, we can look back now and say that some of the most simplified conversion landing pages perform the best. Let's take a look at Google. \n\nWhat do you do when you get to Google? There's only one option. Right, there's one, or well, I guess you can. There's multiple. Now, you can go in the menu and all of that, but when you land on the page, your only option is to search. Now, that works because we've already decided Google is an authority and we trust Google, at least for the searches. Now, when we're designing a landing page though, sometimes you're right it does take a little bit of time to answer that, to prove that you're an authority, to prove that what you're saying is correct. But throughout all of that, if someone comes to your site and already knows, you just want to pepper in conversion points throughout. \n\nStuart: Right, and that, I think, is something to do Right, and that knowing where, where they come from, and this kind of second level thinking around everything we do, it's not the hey, we should have a website. So let's build a website and that's it. It's okay. Well, what's the purpose of the website and how is it being used? \n\nAubrey: it's not right who's? \n\nStuart: the something that gets overlooked far too often with websites yeah, and this idea that the home page has to do everything and do everything for every person, whereas in certain use cases and I'd say a lot of use cases the entrance points to the website are unlikely to be the home page. \n\nThey're more likely to be a deeper page, either whether that's directly linking someone to it or because they've searched and found one of the answers to the questions which you were talking about before. \n\nWe've kind of over-indexed, I think, in the work that we've done in the past around landing pages, in that our mental model pretty much comes from an ad or a direct response-based world of someone sees something that drives someone to a landing page and therefore the landing pages that we've got typically are just very short and very the text almost replicates the ad. \n\nSo from the ads to the page and then the opt-in, because the thought process there is that someone's already made the decision that they want the thing, the fact that we technically need a landing page to capture some details, which obviously is bypassed with lead ads and things like that, but it's just a function of having to get to that next step, but that's fine in that use case where they are coming in through that particular funnel, but the example that we were talking about before. You send a pitch deck to someone to promote a speaking engagement. They then search for you all, go to a home page or go to a page that you point them towards, which is the speaker organizer landing page. If that was just a name and an email opt-in, that wouldn't be the right answer. What we want to present to those people is this amount of stuff that makes their decision easier. So, anyway, anyway, a long way. \n\nAubrey: The other thing to consider here because we haven't mentioned this and you just kind of touched on it when someone's booking you for a speaking engagement, they also want to know that you have your own audience and means of promotions. Because if you are able to promote their conference or their event or whatever that might be, through your own personal brand, you're a lot more attractive now as a speaker because you come with some clout. And now you know, I look at several examples of you know some of the big time circuit speakers and yeah, I mean, yes, it is kind of a you know chicken versus the egg problem, right, Like, once you get to a bigger, big enough platform, you probably don't have to self-promote as much, but the ability to promote where you're speaking at those types of things, that's a value to a lot of conferences, to a lot of events, so on and so yeah, and again it comes back to that orchestration of it. \n\nStuart: So, and there's only one, gary Vaynerchuk. There's only one, tony Robbins right, the majority of us aren't at that level. So as you start coming down in the kind of tiers of speakers below that and get more into the real small business world of actual business owners delivering presentations on things that are delivering value to other small business organizations, then that same it becomes a degree of. It's not a difference, it's a degree. \n\nAubrey: If that makes no, absolutely yes, because you're having to separate yourself now and yeah, and provide, and that's why we really think it's super important for personal brands and for thought leaders to have the ancillary assets like a book right, like media pages and bios and things of that nature, like the newsletter. You know, if you're going to be pitching your book to a publisher one day, or to an agency or anything of that nature, they're going to want to see the size of your following and your newsletter. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I mean you can imagine a scenario of speaking at an organization at a lower level not a big stage level, but a more realistic level for the small business owner or the speaker who's kind of just getting going or getting some traction, but to be able to send that organizer to a page where you're obviously promoting the event after the event. You've got social media snippets If you talk about what a great event it was and how, how good they were at organizing it, anything that you can do to. Again, it reminds me of that joke of the two guys walking through the jungle and they hear a lion and one guy's putting his sneakers on and the other guy's laughing at him and say you'll never outrun a lion. And he looks across and says I don't need to outrun the lion, I just need to outrun you. So it's that same little bit of orchestration of your presence that makes you the easy choice over other people. And then just talking about the traditional publishing routes and we've had authors that have gone that direction after they've worked with us that the idea is kind of germinating and it's turned into something bigger. \n\nBut I was on a. I dialed into a virtual meeting last year sometime and the speaker from stage was the operations director of a big traditional publishing house and he was saying hey, listen, if two people come to me and one person's got a 10 000 person audience and the other person's got a couple of followers on social media, we're going to pick that person because we're in the business of selling books, which isn't our business. We're in the business of starting conversations, but they're in the business of selling books. So if you're not coming with an audience and the same goes for speakers they're in the business of making their event as successful as possible, and some of that is you delivering the value and leaving the assets that enhance the experience for the attendees after the event, but also if you can do something to promote it and make them look good even better. \n\nAubrey: That's the secret, right, that's the secret is when the person, that's because you mentioned it, there's the gatekeeper and the audience right, and the gatekeeper's tail is on the line for how you perform, not the audience right, how you speak. The audience is going to hear what you say regardless. So the other thing, too, that you know you mentioned that a lot of speakers and thought leaders overlook is getting the actual video clips of their speaking engagements right. \n\nYou know that's something that we always press of. Do you have video clips that we can include of you speaking on that personal brand site? What can we do to keep building that authority and legitimacy? I mean, even if it's just something as simple as you walking through, you know, a couple key points of your book on a five minute YouTube video. Reinforcing that authority is something that often gets overlooked because, again, the trap we fall into we in general, as speakers and thought leaders is that the audience is the one that's going to be looking for us online and that's just simply not the case yeah, yeah, it's a second degree element, not the first. \n\nStuart: Again, that's what makes it difficult for people, I think, trying to do this by themselves is there are so many moving parts and it's not so much that it's rocket science apart from the bits that are rocket science, because clearly there are bits that are more difficult to do for people than others, but everyone can get something up. \n\nSo there's a debate about whether that something is good enough, but it's secondary. So that's something is good enough but secondary. So that's almost like a point in time problem, if it's either good enough or it's not good enough and either fix it or don't fix it. But the bigger picture is what you're alluding to there. It's the constant reinforcement, or the constant ability to reinforce, to stay that one step ahead of the competition all the time, to be able to orchestrate and bring together all of these elements in a place that makes the people looking for us find something that we want them to find and accelerate that conversation towards yes, I'm in the right place and yes, I want to do business with you right, because a lot of business owners when they exit, they exit because they were successful, they have a story and they are an authority and thought leader in their space and kind of the what's next? \n\nAubrey: Well, yeah, obviously I want to be a consultant, I want to share my experiences and my success and kind of grow the next generation. But your story doesn't always just resonate alone. It has to be relatable, right, and I think that's where, from a content perspective, people and thought leaders need to really focus as well. As when I'm writing this book, when I'm developing this website, am I saying something that's going to actually resonate with people, or am I saying something that maybe is unique to me, that might put people off, because people search online also for subjects related around their problems? So, optimizing pages for the, again, the pain points you solve in the book if those resonate with other people, that's how you really build solid, organic traffic. \n\nSometimes we see people get very lost in in what I call their own internal isms, okay, and we like to think about the fact that, because we use a term very often that somebody thinking about us or looking for us is going to use it too. So that's just another trap to avoid where, with your personal brand site, you can be very targeted and specific about the message and make sure you're alleviating those pain points, rather than on social media you're kind of shooting a little scattershot of of. I hope my content resonates with whoever is going to see it on their feed that day right and, at the end of the day, it's not something that you own. \n\nStuart: There's always that huge risk of, yes, use it as a gateway out to the world, but make sure that you're bringing people back to the thing that you own and the thing that you've got control over and someone's not going to rug pull you because some algorithm got triggered and then your account's shut down for a week you bring up a great point, because there's also an existential reason to have a personal brand site, because, as we move into a more online and technical world, owning your own name online is going to be way more important than it was maybe 25 years ago. \n\nAubrey: Right, you know? I mean, we see, one of the first things that I recommended my brother-in-law to do when he's, when his children were born, was to buy the URLs. Buy the URL their name, you know because that's virtual real estate that is only going to appreciate in value. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nAubrey: So if I'm a speaker, thought leader, and I have any idea that I might want to do this one day, owning the url is the first step, because that's something that you want to make sure also, that you own your own space online for the future, right yeah, absolutely. \n\nStuart: And, as you say, moving into a world where it's going to get increasingly difficult, slash impossible to tell the difference between a surface view, at least, between what is, I'm going to say, real but even have to air quotes real these days, but what is genuinely authentically you, actually you versus what isn't the whole idea of. At least this is the place that you own, and if stuff appears outside of that, it's one degree of credibility less. The place that you own has to be the place that is the, the sort, the single source of truth of what you're willing to put out there. It's, uh, again, increasingly important, and even more so for people like authors and speakers, people who business, owners, who appear out there in the world more than just an employee on the street that doesn't really have an online presence. The fact there's so much of your content out there I mean this podcast. We're 180 episodes in, so that's 180 episodes on awesome. \n\nYeah, 180, 180 hours of me talking about this out there real achievement, other podcasts that we've achieved. So if someone's scraping and wants to create content that sounds like me but isn't me, hey, I've fed them a lot of stuff to kind of feed that machine, but at least I know that no one else is putting stuff on my website. It's the place that I've got the keys to. \n\nAubrey: I'll give you a hot take for this, but I do really believe that as a society, we are recognizing AI generated content quicker and quicker than ever before. We are starting to notice the patterns of how AI writes content, for example. So, like, the here's blank is going to be chat GPT. We know that right, but I think we're going to eventually, and I think of the saying. What makes me think of this is the saying that I wanted AI to do the dishes and the laundry while I created art, but instead AI is creating art while I do the dishes and laundry, and I think that's so true to where eventually, we will start going online. \n\nNow, I'm not discrediting AI within content strategies, because AI is always going to be better for creating efficiencies, but are you going to build that same trust using AI as we, as a society, start understanding what AI looks like? There's times I'm sure you've come across something where you're like I can tell that's an AI generated article, or I can tell that this page has AI generated content. Now, there's nothing bad about that, but we're trading the trust and authority for efficiency. So I always want to remind people about AI generated content. Is it worth it? Is that trait of efficiency worth the authority and authenticity of your voice, because that answer is going to be different for everybody, right? \n\nStuart: exactly, yeah, exactly. It's understanding the trade-off, and that's again. I mean. We started by saying that I was excited by this show because we got such a line thinking about things. Obviously, people ask us about ai generated books and you said exactly what I say. The reason for, the only reason you would do it is either you don't have your own ideas which isn't true for the majority of people that we work with or you're definitely not a good idea, if you're a speaker or thought leader, to be going out ideas. \n\nGood luck, yeah it's relatively self-selecting, yeah, or you're trying to do it for efficiency and the reality, particularly using our process up from the book generation side of things is it's 90 minutes of your time and it's 100% of your voice and if the outcome is a conversation, the outcome isn't a product. You're not trying to sell a book for $5 and sell a million books and then retire. You're trying to have conversations with people who are eventually going to come in through your door or jump on, zoom and talk with you. If the book doesn't represent the way that you speak or the way that you think or your approach, that's a disconnect, that isn't gonna, that isn't gonna jive. And then the language and trying to clean up what is generated to make it in your voice. It's just not efficient. It's not the best way of doing it. \n\nA much better way of doing it is create some unique, authentic content yourself, like this podcast. We've got an hour now that we've been talking about this. We'll absolutely use ai to amplify it afterwards. But the efficiencies that we're doing is in the distribution and the generation and the clipping. It's not in the ideas or the thoughts. The ideas and thoughts are the uniquely I don't want to say the uniquely human thing, because that sounds a bit pretentious, but it's the uniquely our thing and our approach in the way that we do it. So definitely use AI to amplify things, but don't use it as the seed of the thoughts. \n\nAubrey: Right, and there's also there's really no true answer yet about how Google is going to handle AI generated content. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nAubrey: How search engines are going to handle AI generated content. Now, my personal belief is that eventually, all content will have to be run through an AI for the optimization, and that's how Google will approach that and we'll you know, for us as content creators and us as search engine people, we'll have to make tweaks and optimize from there, and you know, the humans will come in after getting the feedback from the AI. But the dystopian view is what is twofold? What if Google doesn't prioritize AI at all? \n\nRight prioritize AI at all. You've been creating all of your content and all of a sudden, google says that content is not valid and legitimate content for our search engine anymore. What's the next step? The second dystopian fact is that, ultimately, when we're talking about keywords and we're talking about rankings, humans are going to make the decision about their business better than an AI, and I firmly believe that. And what an AI risks is getting into negative feedback cycles to where the AI doesn't know the difference. \n\nRight, if it's raining or overcast, if it's supposed to rain, if the forecast says it's raining, we can look outside and be like, oh, it's just overcast, I don't need my raincoat. So I think that's something. To be weary is probably not the right word, but look around the corner, right and start thinking about that, and maybe the answer will be one day that Google says all content that's gonna be ranked properly needs to be generated by AI. Maybe that will be the case, but there will always be a need for us, as humans, to step in and increase the effectiveness, authority and legitimacy of whatever that efficiency is creating. \n\nStuart: And I think that ties us up neatly in coming back to the whole idea of personal brands, because it's that individual approach to doing things. We see this with financial advisors a lot. I mean, a 401k is a 401k at the end of the day, but how they present their business, their priorities, how they work with people, the care that they give to their clients, that's the differentiator. And just as much as one person will work great with this group of people, another person will work great with this group of people. So there's an abundance out there where just you as your personality, your presence, is more than enough to win at this game. Um, time always goes fast, it's uh, pleasure talking with you. \n\nAubrey: Great to come on. \n\nStuart: Thank you for having me yeah, no problem, we should definitely circle back in a few months and do a kind of a 202 or follow-up level. I want to make sure that people we gave some great pointers there for people in terms of thinking about how they should bring their personal brand together, but then of course it runs up against the practicalities of doing it. So I want to make sure that people can kind of pull some more of your resources and see what you guys do, because you've got a lot of great stuff over there to take this to the next level. So where's a good place for people to go? \n\nAubrey:* Yeah, the first step I always recommend with people is the data, everything online. For little people to go yeah, the first step I always recommend with people is the data, everything online. We talked about the math. It all comes back to data. It all comes back to making informed decisions. We offer complimentary search engine optimization audits. \n\nSo if you go to alterendeavors. com and you go on the side menu, you can find our complimentary SEO audit. We'll go through, look at all the data, all the traffic. If you don't have a personal brand site yet, what we can do is we can look at some of your competitors and see what they're doing and see what resonates with your story and your mission. But at the end of the day, why I say to start with that is because websites are only as good as the traffic you drive to them. And if we're not driving quality traffic to a site for a speaker, for a thought leader, for a personal brand, it's going to be difficult to get good speaking engagements right, it's going to be difficult to get good consulting jobs, to get that good end point. So that's why I think starting with what is the actual search term, the strategy for getting organic rankings, so on and so forth. That's what I always recommend to start with. So you can go to alterendeavors.com and in our menu there's a free SEO audit. \n\nStuart: Perfect, and I'll make sure I'll link directly to it as well in the show notes so, as people are listening either in a podcast player or on the website, they can just click straight through. \n\nI'll also link your LinkedIn profile as well, so people can connect with you directly, directly. We could talk for so much longer and looking forward to doing another one of these and diving a little bit deeper. It's such a, as we start off by saying, it's such a great crossover between what we do and the way that we talk to people and try and get people to think about a book. The fact that you guys aren't thinking about a website purely from a design perspective and it has to look pretty and not really that worried about functionality or who's engaging with you, really, starting with the end in mind of this thing, is here to do a job of work and let's make sure that it does that. So, yeah, ties in so well. I'll be. Thanks again, buddy. Really appreciate it everyone. Thanks for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes for links straight through and then we will catch you again in the next one thanks. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today, on the Book More Show, I spoke with Aubrey Berkowitz of Alter Endeavors and Armada Digital. He shared how thought leaders, authors, and speakers can establish an online presence that strengthens their distinct brand and captures qualified leads.
\n\nWe explored the evolution of personal branding in a post-pandemic digital world and the vital role of a focused online platform. Aubrey also provided proven conversion strategies for driving speaking opportunities through tailored pitches and comprehensive, accessible content that pre-qualifies the speaker.
\n\nLastly, we discussed leveraging books and other assets to build online credibility and maintain an authentic personal voice in today's AI-influenced landscape.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/172
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Aubrey Berkowitz:
\nWebsite: Armada Digital Agency |
\nLinkedIn: Aubrey Berkowitz
\n\n
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Aubrey Berkowitz. Aubrey, how are you doing?
\n\nAubrey: Doing. Great thanks for having me, stuart, appreciate your time.
\n\nStuart: Pleasure buddy. I'm looking forward to this set this scene for people so we know each other. We've had a few calls and there's such a great crossover between the businesses. I think this is really going to be an interesting podcast for people, because it's going to be ones that are directly applicable, like sometimes we're talking about subjects that are maybe slightly not es esoteric, but maybe one level removed, but I think this is something that's going to be 100% on mark for everyone listening. So why don't we start, give a bit of a background about you and the company and then we'll go from there?
\n\nAubrey: Yeah, my name is Aubrey Berkowitz. I'm the managing partner of Alter Endeavors, which is a digital lead generation company, as well as Armada Digital, which is a hosting and ongoing support company. We help authors and speakers and thought leaders build out online platforms and lead generation strategies to help. Whether that's driving more speaking engagements, whether that's adding to your newsletter, taking a book to market, whatever that final conversion point might be, we help speakers and thought leaders build their personal brand.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Such an interesting this idea of the specific use case for the asset. It's something that we talk about a lot in terms of books traditional books people think about a build it once and they will come, or it's a thing that sits on the shelf and maybe serves several purposes, but we're really talking about that specific purpose for you guys. I know a lot of the conversations that we've had have been specifically around that book web, book-based website to promote that brand and build the build that asset as a lead generation tool. Obviously, websites aren't anything new for people we're 2024 now, so they've been around for a little while but I think people still approach it as an afterthought or something that's trying to serve absolutely every purpose. For a lot of people that you're working with, the websites that you're building, do these tend to sit in addition to other websites that people have got, or are they the main and only one that people are using that people other websites that people have got, or are they the main and only one that people are using?
\n\nAubrey: So it's interesting. You brought up kind of the historical background of how we view websites, because the online world has changed so quickly in the last few years. We're having your own digital online. Let's call it a town hall, a hub, a platform is now more important than ever because when we're talking about thought leadership and when we're talking about driving leads and conversions, ultimately that has to happen somewhere. So the website now, rather than being a brochure, rather than just being purely informational, has turned into an area rich for conversions, for speakers, for thought leaders, for consultants, for fractions. So that's the shift that we're seeing is that these strategies that might have seemed like afterthoughts have become even more important as we're transitioning to an even more digital world.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and the kind of fracturing of those presences and almost people's ownership. I mean kind of think about it from a couple of perspectives either if you're a employee and trying to be a specialist in your area and there might be a positive interest that you want to move elsewhere and promote yourself, or there might be the kind of negative side of layoffs happen and you might find yourself on the outs before you realize it. Establishing your presence separate from the company presence is important. And then from an entrepreneur, business leader, founder perspective, the turnover of businesses is much faster than it was before. Brands reposition or pivot or whatever positive or negative reason for it. But having an entity which is you and people can build that rapport with you and then as the other things move, you're still you.
\n\nAubrey: That is so much more important now than the last couple of years absolutely, because you look at the way and let's talk about some of the more niche instances where this is very applicable. So let's talk about if you are someone that's in maybe the private equity space right, you might be work, you might have an interest in 10 different companies, or you might have written three different books. So how do we bring that all together, right? And how do we bring together maybe, things that might have a different content to them, right? And maybe you're an author that speaks in different areas of leadership?
\n\nHaving that online hub, having that personal brand, like you mentioned, is a way to differentiate yourself. Banking is another example where we see this. Bank presidents, you're able to go and create your own business, hunt your own business, but people recognize you as the brand. So how do we maintain that? But also, at the same time, create a lead generation environment that can contribute to both, too right, and can contribute to multiple areas that you might be involved in? And again, that speaks back to the new critical importance of having a personal brand website, to the new critical importance of having a personal brand website. If I were a car dealer 15 years ago, it's not as important as it is now, where we still want to shop local, we still want to have a relationship with the people. So that personal brand site also functions as a way for people to verify their referrals.
\n\nStuart: Right and to that point you're making now about the people still want to shop local.
\n\nThey still want to have a relationship with a person.
\n\nThat almost the change in the last couple of years, kind of post-pandemic, and more and more people working from home although I mean that might be changing slightly, but still it's much more of a separated place that we're in now rather than the workspace where everyone is in the same place and when you meet you ask what they do and they talk about their job or their role, having the person piece tied to it.
\n\nIt's, I mean, in marketing, what we've said for years that people buy from people, they don't buy from companies, whether that's at the macro level and thinking about brands and big identities, down to the kind of micro level of the transaction and you get a rapport with the person who you're dealing with on the phone and that idea we work with a lot of realtors in another part of the business but the idea that you become their guy. A very good friend of mine, jim hacking, is our immigration attorney, so he's the go-to guy when I think immigration facilities. I think Jim, he occupies that spot in my brain, so the same ability to build that personal place where people can go and feel like they've got a relationship with you.
\n\nAubrey: And we've just moved Stuart to such an online content driven world as well, where unbranded searches at the highest percentage it's ever been, and what unbranded means is that people are searching for terms and phrases around subject matter rather than just company names. So it builds further to what you're saying and we love to quote do our own research. What does do our own research mean? Right, it inevitably means we're going to go back to Google or we're going to go online, because we are now trained and conditioned to know how to actually use the internet to achieve the goals we want. My five-year-old nephew now understands how to use an iPad and understands that he can search the internet for YouTube videos or other content mechanisms that he enjoys, and the future generations are growing up with that baseline.
\n\nThey're growing up with the baseline that you and I had of let's go to the library. Well, that library is now online and it's infinite.
\n\nStuart: Right actually that's a great example. So our youngest is uh 14, almost 15, and just graduating at eighth grade, so he's getting a. He's had an ipad for a little while, but he's getting a phone finally. So he's very excited about that. But when we're out and about or when he's not near the ipad, he'll ask something and he'll either say let me borrow your phone or right, yeah watch us as we're typing the search if he's in the back of the car on the other side of the room.
\n\nWe're just trying to do it and whenever I do it or his mom does it, he always says we get a response and he always queries it. Well, let me see what you type. Let me see what you type. Yes absolutely.
\n\nBecause you and I came up in a kind of more Boolean type world of typing in Google searches, where we're trying to guess what the I don't know if I mean it was an algorithm, but you wouldn't necessarily have called it an algorithm back then we're trying to guess what search parameters will yield the best results, whereas if you see the natural language way that they search today, they're just typing in as if you're asking a question. As it moves more towards voice, that's just even become more prevalent. So you were mentioning about the natural language search and the unbranded search and people just querying this online assistant to find the things. If you as a presence are there, someone might remember your name, we might remember the subject you're related. To start searching that, going down that rabbit hole if you don't have anything related to you and they're missing the connection with the brand. It's a gap that's going to get more and more pronounced over time. I think absolutely, and there are internets and they're missing the connection with the brand.
\n\nAubrey: It's a gap that's going to get more and more pronounced over time. I think Absolutely, and there are internet statistics online statistics that show the difference in what you're mentioning as well. So your son's generation is 18% more likely to focus on local search than our generation is.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nAubrey: And where this also comes into play is how you mentioned how they approach search terms. So we used to I don't know if you remember the original Ask Jeeves, but it was term comma right and we tried to match like you said. But the younger generations, they're searching for content around key phrases Now, taking a step back. For speakers and thought leaders and authors, this is an amazing opportunity Because it means suddenly the content that we create is exponentially more relevant in search. Now, we've all seen the search algorithms using AI. They've been using AI for years, they always will be. But even now, when they're integrating AI into the Google search, it's pulling from content and it's pulling from the content we create on the internet.
\n\nSo, there's untapped potential now to utilize your content in a way to where you can drive people back to your actual platform. Now how do we all make it come together with the book? Right, the book is the richest source of content that you can create. Book, right, the book is the richest source of content that you can create. Yeah, it exists, and you can then take pieces from your book that you know are relevant, write content around that and create an ecosystem to where we're driving results that are relevant to the subject you actually talk about.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, actually that's a great bridge, because we obviously don't do anything with websites at all.
\n\nThat's out well outside of our scope of interest.
\n\nBut we're definitely encouraging people to, now that you've done the work of creating the content, take that content and amplify it elsewhere and elsewhere.
\n\nIt makes perfect sense that it's on their own site. So the idea of let me use the scorecard book as an example so the scorecard book has eight steps in there, eight building blocks of a book. Those eight things are pieces within their own right, so to be able to either take the raw content or take the idea of the content and then elaborate and expand on it. And because these books are created based on the things that you know so well in your head, and a book is a relatively confined, one of the elements in there is specifically beneficial constraints. So we actively try and keep people constrained so that the project gets completed. But any one of those elements that you're talking about, as a business owner who's been doing this for a couple of years, you can talk and write and develop and expand on those individual pieces out of an item, almost. So the website seems like the perfect place to then, if you're doing that work to then bring it together.
\n\nAubrey: Absolutely, and the advantage, like we said, of a personal brand site is that you can have different books on your site that all relate to what you do overall, rather than branding your site around the book and I know we're kind of tiptoeing around it, but we keep mentioning the importance of books, and if the one major determining factor we've seen for consultants to have the most success is do you have a book, do you have something that you're saying in the market that is unique? So where the opportunity then lies is let's take this personal brand you're starting to build and let's build out some of the ancillary funnels of it too. Let's have community built around your book to where we can actually start getting to those what I call late end conversions, late end conversion being a consulting gig, a speaking gig or wherever the monetization really comes in comes in.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting that the idea of people wanting to speak, particularly at the beginning, unless they've got a very established track record and kind of they've got a demand created so people are coming to them.
\n\nFor the rest of us it's probably less that there might be some referrals and there's a bit more kind of relationship capital passed down, that down that connection. But for everyone else it's kind of putting the passed down that connection, but for everyone else it's kind of putting the opportunity out there and hoping that someone will respond and pick up to it. And again, speakers are the same. By having that, I almost imagine that it's the case that if you pitch to a organization that's looking for a speaker and they then look for you and you don't have anything out there, even if you had the best pitch deck or presentation on paper, if they're not actually looking for you and seeing something that's out there, that's reinforcing that this is something that you can do. I imagine that's like a resume problem of kind of yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. You just filtered out at the first.
\n\nAubrey: It's an audience problem too, because what we see a lot of times is speakers and thought leaders.
\n\nWe like to think about where everyone can get passionate about what we talk about.
\n\nIn business, we can all get passionate about it.
\n\nWe can, and sometimes people can deliver the most amazing speech ever, right? But we're thinking about it of the audience being who we're actually talking to, as, as a speaker, the audience is not the one booking you. There's going to be somebody in the organization and they're going to have to go back to their board and justify your cost and justify your value. Now, unless they've heard you speak before, and even if they had, what are they going to use to go back to their people? It might be a pitch deck, sure, but everyone now expects to be able to go online and again going back to doing your own homework, being able to find something on that person, on their personal brand, being able to engage with their content, whether it's download a chapter of the book, whether it's join a newsletter, join a newsletter. These are all things now that, by doing it the right way, you can pre-qualify yourself when it actually gets to the point where the speaking decision is being made and who's speaking is being right that principal agent problem.
\n\nStuart: If you've got the, there's a disconnect between the end audience and the gatekeeping audience of who's actually buying.
\n\nYeah right that's another reason why it's such a great opportunity to speak together, because we're so aligned on this approach. The amount of times that we talk to people about a book project and then go through that, that, that initial ideation point of, okay, well, who's the ideal prospect? Okay, within that ideal prospect group, are they the end users or are they the end customers? Because that might be a different group. And where it is different, it's very important to make sure that you're either could be the right answer, but you're pitching it at the right level and you understand the impact, the downstream impact, of what you're setting up.
\n\nThe really interesting one is and again this is a bit out of scope of of what we're talking about but you can imagine a scenario where people, once they understand that there's a gatekeeper in place, there's an agent in place between them and the people that they're ultimately delivering to, but that presentation of the package, that value proposition that you're putting out there, if you can address that, both of those markets, by saying here's what I'll deliver to your end customers, but here's what I'm delivering to you to make the decision as easy as possible and overwhelming the evidence for each step, it only takes a little bit of orchestration, to separate yourself from the crowd, because I think the majority of people don't do that. They're just focused on what they do and they're in that mindset of well, I do it and I'm passionate about it and I'm the best, so everyone else should just understand and jump on board.
\n\nAubrey: Yeah, and I can speak about what I talk about every day, right. And then the other trap kind of bringing back to what we had discussed a little bit earlier is so, once your presentation's done, having a book as a leave behind piece is something that these program coordinators all prioritize, because they want to keep continuing to provide value to their audience, to their users. I'm going to use a hospital association as an example, because we have a client that's a speaker for hospital associations and what he's been able to do is leave them behind with materials that consistently provide value beyond just what he speaks about.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nAubrey: And that's where the real late stage rich conversions come in. For consultants, right I almost like to think of it as you're speaking is sometimes just your paid lead generation. If you're a thought leader right, you're just paid to hopefully get an ongoing engagement with somebody that you're speaking to. But that only happens if you're providing value, right, and if you're providing something that they can take back with them. Whether that's a book, whether that's joining a newsletter community, whatever that might be providing the value is the real way to engage and create longstanding customers as well.
\n\nYeah, I don't know if that's the same for you, but I don't see the very many people getting rich off just the book anymore right, exactly, and the with the speaking has been the gateway.
\n\nStuart: It's the start of the conversation. For us, our whole model is it's according to the phrase of the conversation starting book is exactly that premise. It's the start of the conversation that leads to something else, saying that the book isn't the product, the conversation from the book is the product, and the same with the speaking element and the same with the website. All of these things can layer in to reinforce the credibility or the ease at which someone gets to say yes, particularly when you're dealing with employees of an organization where it's their job to to book these people or to make these engagement pieces, because they're not as, on the one hand, they're not as passionately engaged with the outcome as an owner might be that, hopefully, they're still good at their job and they're passionate about their job, but there is a difference, but then also they're doing this every day, so they've got 100.
\n\nFocus on this particular role and as much as you can streamline that for people and make it an easy decision to say yes to. There was a. I was on a call earlier today and a similar call last week where the person was talking about a conversion heuristic and I have it written down but it's on my other desk so I'll try and remember it for the I've never heard of this term, so I'm fascinated real quick so he was talking about conversions and get into a yes.
\n\nSo the outcome of a yes is a multiple of four times the motivation, so 4m um plus 2v, which is two times the value proposition plus two times the incentive or the ease of use of doing whatever the action is, but then minus any friction and any anxiety.
\n\nAubrey: And I butchered that a little bit isn't it funny how conversions have become so math-like. You know we think about it as so much psychology and so much people, but there's still an underlying element of math to it.
\n\nStuart: Right, there's that art and science, but there's definitely a decent amount of science that you can test against. So all of those things the motivation, the value proposition, the ease of the incentive to actually click, whatever the thing is against the friction and the anxiety, whatever we can do to ease that overall completion whether it's on a webpage or whether it's putting a speaker proposal out, or whether it's standing on stage and delivering the material and then leaving people with a book which reduces anxiety, which removes friction, increases value proposition, leading someone to an author website or your particular brand where you have the whole world view of the thing that you offer. Easily presenting people, whichever way they come into it, easily presenting them with the next step all of these things are kind of levers that we can pull to streamline the whole process. So when you're dealing with people, how many people come with a very clear idea of what they want to do, versus they've kind of got a loose idea of the outcome that they want and you've got to guide people towards making it to that finish line.
\n\nAubrey: That's a great question, because speakers, thought leaders, authors are very particular about their content. So typically we'll find that people have that I want to say blue sky ready in their mind right of what that looks like. Now the interesting thing is that not every speaker is going to be set up for the same late stage conversions. You know, if you're someone that is focused on retirement planning, you know you're going to be much more focused on getting consultations with maybe an entire company to set up their benefits and so on and so forth. So knowing what that end conversion is usually dictates the path we take, because there's different areas of attack that you can go about it as a speaker and a thought leader too. Now, going back to it again, there's going to have to be critical assets, because if there isn't some kind of asset, you're only pitching yourself and you're relying on a heavy amount of your personal brand, having already done the lifting.
\n\nAnd that's something that we all like to think. We're known in our industry, but if you look at the Google search volume, for most companies the founder is probably the seventh or eighth term that they're the highest position for. So you're still getting traffic off of yourself, but there's that opportunity to branch off and really create something of your own. Create something of your own. So typically there's also steps as well. Right, maybe I'm looking to host event series and I want to have my book be a part of that promotion, or maybe I want to build a community, but it all always comes back to what that end point conversion is. The biggest problem I see speakers and thought leaders fall into. The biggest trap, I guess, is the idea that my content alone, just what I say, can drive an entire personal brand. That's only half true.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nAubrey: Because there still has to be some kind of ongoing conversation, like you're saying, to where we're still elaborating every day and training our audience every day and nurturing that audience to where, when we have them come back to the personal brand and site, they're actually ready to convert. Whether that's sign up for a speaking engagement book for press, is a big one in that nature. If you're using a PR company, they're almost always going to insist you have a personal brand website. They're going to insist that you have things like press and media. And where does all that live? So that's really where it all starts. For us is that personal brand platform allows you to have the legs to do other things beyond just what you say and lead generation.
\n\nStuart: Right. So the people who are kind of consuming the site, the people on the other side, is there any? I'm trying to ask a question in a way that isn't the obvious answer. It's different for every person. Are there any trends, I guess, around what people are looking for now? So if, when I'm thinking about the people who've written books with us over the years, there's that mix of kind of very small independent financial advisors to larger business owners who are looking to establish more of a movement or a different way of approaching things, the kind of manifesto type book of how we're planting a flag in the ground of doing things differently, so the people who are coming to those websites, the information they're trying to consume, is going to be a mix of potential clients but then potential network partners or people who are, who can kind of amplify that message out in the broader world. So is there any kind of trends on the types of information that people are wanting to see when they come to that site? Will be that everyone's different?
\n\nAubrey: Yeah, absolutely. I think that there are several things lately, and I'm going to take this in two steps, because, with the platform there are, because I see this as a two-part answer. With the platform, there are certain things that if you are trying to be a speaker or a thought leader, it is almost essential to have. One of them is, you know, press kits on your actual site. If you give presentations, having unique URLs for your presentations so that you can drive traffic specifically to that Small things, even though, like having your headshot, we see that all the time where they won't have their headshot. But a streamlined experience once someone gets to your site is the first step of this answer.
\n\nNow, in terms of what people are searching for, we get to put our math hats back on again, because the way that people search is always changing. We mentioned the more of the unbranded traffic, but there are several factors to consider in your organic traffic. The first is how much volume is there, right? So how many people search over a 30-day period? The second being okay, what is the competitive density? So how many people search over a 30-day period? The second being okay, what is the competitive density? So how many of my competitors are trying to rank for this term and then Google will actually give a score for the term of how difficult it is to rank for. So we want to act almost like a financial planner here, where there's going to be some terms that are worth the optimization for and some that we might say there's less traffic but it's less competitive.
\n\nNow, backing up. What does that mean? Well, again, with math, 65% of Google search results end in the first three results. 80% end in the first five. Once you get to page two, you are getting five to 7% of total traffic. So if you pick a term where you're going to be on page two but there's, you know, a hundred thousand searches, that might not actually be worth it because you might not be getting enough of that math. So what we look at now is the actual trends and we pull the data and what we've seen overall is that people are searching for specific content around their pain points. So with the book, what pain point do you answer? What are you alleviating and what value are you providing? Then let's start focusing on optimizing towards that.
\n\nStuart: And it's such a great example of A why it's difficult for people to do themselves. Now it's such a complicated and busy space. To be able to rank for anything by yourself is probably difficult for someone coming in today. Now there's going to be legacy players who did do it themselves and they've got the benefit of age and kind of holding that ground initially. Kind of holding that ground initially.
\n\nBut for someone starting from scratch it is pretty challenging, I think, to have a map of, to be able to see that landscape and the map of which ones are worth it and which ones aren't. And then the other point that I really love and again it's one of the reasons why books are so valuable is this idea of topic bridging. You've written 60, 70, 80 pages worth of stuff that's in your wheelhouse, in your ballpark, but there might be four, five, six, slightly longer tail keywords that are accessible and worth doing. That you might struggle to come across yourself, but working with someone like you guys, you can then take the existing content that you've got and then bridge it into a relevant search term, and it's a much easier job of doing the bridging work rather than looking at a blank page and thinking I've got to create this thing from scratch.
\n\nSo it just gives so many opportunities to leverage the work that you've done into this whole other realm of optimization and organic traffic, and then, as we were saying earlier, the specific outreach and the dedicated pieces that you do. It's kind of, once you've done that work, it just opens up so many opportunities. And the underlying tentpole piece is a book which in and of itself has an outsized authority compared with the same information in a video or on a web page. Again, there might be good use cases for doing those things as well, but the fact that it comes back to the book, it's just a disproportionate advantage, I think, particularly while still I mean books are getting more and more popular for people to do, but still it's a small minority of people who actually do it.
\n\nAubrey: You know, something I've always found interesting too is that authors in general and maybe it's just the ability of writers, right, in general authors have an easier time relating and explaining the audience for a book than on the website. So what we found is that by pulling content from the book, that's easy, blog material that can be repurposed, that's already been used or it can be managed in different ways to where we already understand who the audience is. And the pain point is Because you mentioned it, there are legacy players. Yes, that happens. Your social media can actually be a huge driver now, depending on what platform you're on, if you're on Twitter, if you're on LinkedIn something that can be a huge organic driver.
\n\nBut at the end of the day, people, we use websites now as a tool. Websites are not just brochures. We as a society, go to a website with an expectation that we can accomplish a goal, and if your personal brand site doesn't accomplish a goal that leads to conversions and leads to more business, it's just a missed opportunity. In general, right, and like you said, that book often bridges the gap, because the book reinforces your authority each step of the way while someone's engaging with your personal brand.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it does kind of accelerate the whole know, like and trust process. Now you've got a place where people can, one place that's convenient, that people can learn more. It brings it all together and, whatever the touch point is into that world, you're always presenting people with the next step and, in a way, that kind of builds on the authority and credibility because you've managed and brought together specifically the journey that you want to bring together for that audience. You talked about having unique urls for things.
\n\nWhen you're out there reaching to people, one of the things I've said to people for the longest time is, if you have the opportunity, if you know you're addressing an audience, one of the easiest ways to do is give people a copy of the book in the first instance, if you feel like there's any friction to asking them to name an email to download it, but then say, hey, actually we've only got 20 minutes here on stage, but I actually recorded a bit of a deeper dive on one of the main subjects in a video and head over to this page and get a copy of it there.
\n\nSo, again, using the assets that you've got the speech that you're delivering, the email that you're sending, the book that you've sent out, but personalizing it with a note and then delivering more information to just use a small step, that again has a larger amplification of that personal connection, because all of it is about personal connection. We're really trying to make that, make a person feel welcome and that we can help them, and we're enthusiastic to help them. So as much as possible we can make a conversational conversion, a one-to-one relationship. Even if that one-to-one is at scale, then it just oils the wheel so much more.
\n\nAubrey: Yeah, absolutely, and you talk about just building that authenticity too.
\n\nRight, and one of the big trends we saw out of the pandemic was people trying to move towards a e-learning or some kind of virtual learning as a consultant, because the idea was oh well, we can sell 10,000 licenses. That also relies, though, on having built that authority. It relies on having something that you can say like, and the best example I've seen that works is actually taking chapters out of your book and building an e-learning course out of that and the book as a side-by-side material, because we all want to create these different sticky mechanisms to keep people within our funnel, within our environment, within our ecosystem. But the interesting thing is, to this day, people still are willing to make the commitment on a book over an e-learning class, regardless of the cost. Cost nine times out of ten. So it's an interesting thing we're having the partnership works, but if we're trying to just pull and be an e-learning or, you know, having that virtual classroom type, there's still got to be some kind of legitimate content associated to it, right?
\n\nStuart: yeah, it's two things that spring to mind, as you mentioned. That is one, this idea of minimum viable commitment. We call it when we're talking about books on the back cover, this idea of the small step, the smallest viable step that moves people towards a buying decision, to be able to give someone the book, which is the overview. And yes, there'll be a certain amount of people that don't take any steps more than just request the book. But they would probably never your clients anyway. It's a very tiny minority of people who would read the content that was in there and then think, okay, I'm done, now I don't need anything else. It's a disproportionately larger majority that will consume the content there and realize, oh, this is the starting point, and now I need to go to the next one and the book has done that kind of conversion or compelling piece for you to move them forward.
\n\nAnd then the second point that you mentioned is the backup or the reinforcing element of multiple formats, so to have a book as a follow-along, even if people don't actually read it. There's a psychological again. I was on a call earlier today. Actually, I wrote down because I thought I need to remember this because I'm going to use it yeah, this happens to me all the time.
\n\nIt's normal, right right, yeah, unless I write down, it disappears again. So the person was talking about landing page conversions and we were running through some older landing pages and the language that was on there and there was a longer piece and someone commented well, that's a long piece, I'm not sure that someone's going to read it. Or there was. It was, uh, adding reinforcing elements to the page. So there was the copy and then the bullets and then some overcoming objections and some logos, icons for credibility and some testimonials, and someone made the comment oh, there's a lot of stuff there. It'll take a long time for someone to read through it.
\n\nSo the comment was that I don't want to teach people to read. I want to compel them to make a decision. And those things that are on the page, or if there's an e-learning course and the fact that a book is there to back it up, it's not necessarily that you're trying to create more content than they're actually going to consume. It's that you want to add to the value proposition so that it compels them to take the decision, and the decision then moves them on to the next step and they may never revisit some of these issues or some of these elements, but it just builds on this momentum of yes towards that decision point and we know from you know, obviously, the thousands of years of mankind that there's really three things that lead people to buy.
\n\nAubrey: Right, there's the do I trust you? The authority, are you saying the right thing and is it easy for me to make the decision in the conversion point, right there? So when we're thinking even about web user flow, there's almost a narrative we want to build on a page, and if it takes a little, want to build on a page, and if it takes a little longer to build that narrative that includes those three things, that's fine, as long as there's a conversion point. Now, at the same time, we can look back now and say that some of the most simplified conversion landing pages perform the best. Let's take a look at Google.
\n\nWhat do you do when you get to Google? There's only one option. Right, there's one, or well, I guess you can. There's multiple. Now, you can go in the menu and all of that, but when you land on the page, your only option is to search. Now, that works because we've already decided Google is an authority and we trust Google, at least for the searches. Now, when we're designing a landing page though, sometimes you're right it does take a little bit of time to answer that, to prove that you're an authority, to prove that what you're saying is correct. But throughout all of that, if someone comes to your site and already knows, you just want to pepper in conversion points throughout.
\n\nStuart: Right, and that, I think, is something to do Right, and that knowing where, where they come from, and this kind of second level thinking around everything we do, it's not the hey, we should have a website. So let's build a website and that's it. It's okay. Well, what's the purpose of the website and how is it being used?
\n\nAubrey: it's not right who's?
\n\nStuart: the something that gets overlooked far too often with websites yeah, and this idea that the home page has to do everything and do everything for every person, whereas in certain use cases and I'd say a lot of use cases the entrance points to the website are unlikely to be the home page.
\n\nThey're more likely to be a deeper page, either whether that's directly linking someone to it or because they've searched and found one of the answers to the questions which you were talking about before.
\n\nWe've kind of over-indexed, I think, in the work that we've done in the past around landing pages, in that our mental model pretty much comes from an ad or a direct response-based world of someone sees something that drives someone to a landing page and therefore the landing pages that we've got typically are just very short and very the text almost replicates the ad.
\n\nSo from the ads to the page and then the opt-in, because the thought process there is that someone's already made the decision that they want the thing, the fact that we technically need a landing page to capture some details, which obviously is bypassed with lead ads and things like that, but it's just a function of having to get to that next step, but that's fine in that use case where they are coming in through that particular funnel, but the example that we were talking about before. You send a pitch deck to someone to promote a speaking engagement. They then search for you all, go to a home page or go to a page that you point them towards, which is the speaker organizer landing page. If that was just a name and an email opt-in, that wouldn't be the right answer. What we want to present to those people is this amount of stuff that makes their decision easier. So, anyway, anyway, a long way.
\n\nAubrey: The other thing to consider here because we haven't mentioned this and you just kind of touched on it when someone's booking you for a speaking engagement, they also want to know that you have your own audience and means of promotions. Because if you are able to promote their conference or their event or whatever that might be, through your own personal brand, you're a lot more attractive now as a speaker because you come with some clout. And now you know, I look at several examples of you know some of the big time circuit speakers and yeah, I mean, yes, it is kind of a you know chicken versus the egg problem, right, Like, once you get to a bigger, big enough platform, you probably don't have to self-promote as much, but the ability to promote where you're speaking at those types of things, that's a value to a lot of conferences, to a lot of events, so on and so yeah, and again it comes back to that orchestration of it.
\n\nStuart: So, and there's only one, gary Vaynerchuk. There's only one, tony Robbins right, the majority of us aren't at that level. So as you start coming down in the kind of tiers of speakers below that and get more into the real small business world of actual business owners delivering presentations on things that are delivering value to other small business organizations, then that same it becomes a degree of. It's not a difference, it's a degree.
\n\nAubrey: If that makes no, absolutely yes, because you're having to separate yourself now and yeah, and provide, and that's why we really think it's super important for personal brands and for thought leaders to have the ancillary assets like a book right, like media pages and bios and things of that nature, like the newsletter. You know, if you're going to be pitching your book to a publisher one day, or to an agency or anything of that nature, they're going to want to see the size of your following and your newsletter.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I mean you can imagine a scenario of speaking at an organization at a lower level not a big stage level, but a more realistic level for the small business owner or the speaker who's kind of just getting going or getting some traction, but to be able to send that organizer to a page where you're obviously promoting the event after the event. You've got social media snippets If you talk about what a great event it was and how, how good they were at organizing it, anything that you can do to. Again, it reminds me of that joke of the two guys walking through the jungle and they hear a lion and one guy's putting his sneakers on and the other guy's laughing at him and say you'll never outrun a lion. And he looks across and says I don't need to outrun the lion, I just need to outrun you. So it's that same little bit of orchestration of your presence that makes you the easy choice over other people. And then just talking about the traditional publishing routes and we've had authors that have gone that direction after they've worked with us that the idea is kind of germinating and it's turned into something bigger.
\n\nBut I was on a. I dialed into a virtual meeting last year sometime and the speaker from stage was the operations director of a big traditional publishing house and he was saying hey, listen, if two people come to me and one person's got a 10 000 person audience and the other person's got a couple of followers on social media, we're going to pick that person because we're in the business of selling books, which isn't our business. We're in the business of starting conversations, but they're in the business of selling books. So if you're not coming with an audience and the same goes for speakers they're in the business of making their event as successful as possible, and some of that is you delivering the value and leaving the assets that enhance the experience for the attendees after the event, but also if you can do something to promote it and make them look good even better.
\n\nAubrey: That's the secret, right, that's the secret is when the person, that's because you mentioned it, there's the gatekeeper and the audience right, and the gatekeeper's tail is on the line for how you perform, not the audience right, how you speak. The audience is going to hear what you say regardless. So the other thing, too, that you know you mentioned that a lot of speakers and thought leaders overlook is getting the actual video clips of their speaking engagements right.
\n\nYou know that's something that we always press of. Do you have video clips that we can include of you speaking on that personal brand site? What can we do to keep building that authority and legitimacy? I mean, even if it's just something as simple as you walking through, you know, a couple key points of your book on a five minute YouTube video. Reinforcing that authority is something that often gets overlooked because, again, the trap we fall into we in general, as speakers and thought leaders is that the audience is the one that's going to be looking for us online and that's just simply not the case yeah, yeah, it's a second degree element, not the first.
\n\nStuart: Again, that's what makes it difficult for people, I think, trying to do this by themselves is there are so many moving parts and it's not so much that it's rocket science apart from the bits that are rocket science, because clearly there are bits that are more difficult to do for people than others, but everyone can get something up.
\n\nSo there's a debate about whether that something is good enough, but it's secondary. So that's something is good enough but secondary. So that's almost like a point in time problem, if it's either good enough or it's not good enough and either fix it or don't fix it. But the bigger picture is what you're alluding to there. It's the constant reinforcement, or the constant ability to reinforce, to stay that one step ahead of the competition all the time, to be able to orchestrate and bring together all of these elements in a place that makes the people looking for us find something that we want them to find and accelerate that conversation towards yes, I'm in the right place and yes, I want to do business with you right, because a lot of business owners when they exit, they exit because they were successful, they have a story and they are an authority and thought leader in their space and kind of the what's next?
\n\nAubrey: Well, yeah, obviously I want to be a consultant, I want to share my experiences and my success and kind of grow the next generation. But your story doesn't always just resonate alone. It has to be relatable, right, and I think that's where, from a content perspective, people and thought leaders need to really focus as well. As when I'm writing this book, when I'm developing this website, am I saying something that's going to actually resonate with people, or am I saying something that maybe is unique to me, that might put people off, because people search online also for subjects related around their problems? So, optimizing pages for the, again, the pain points you solve in the book if those resonate with other people, that's how you really build solid, organic traffic.
\n\nSometimes we see people get very lost in in what I call their own internal isms, okay, and we like to think about the fact that, because we use a term very often that somebody thinking about us or looking for us is going to use it too. So that's just another trap to avoid where, with your personal brand site, you can be very targeted and specific about the message and make sure you're alleviating those pain points, rather than on social media you're kind of shooting a little scattershot of of. I hope my content resonates with whoever is going to see it on their feed that day right and, at the end of the day, it's not something that you own.
\n\nStuart: There's always that huge risk of, yes, use it as a gateway out to the world, but make sure that you're bringing people back to the thing that you own and the thing that you've got control over and someone's not going to rug pull you because some algorithm got triggered and then your account's shut down for a week you bring up a great point, because there's also an existential reason to have a personal brand site, because, as we move into a more online and technical world, owning your own name online is going to be way more important than it was maybe 25 years ago.
\n\nAubrey: Right, you know? I mean, we see, one of the first things that I recommended my brother-in-law to do when he's, when his children were born, was to buy the URLs. Buy the URL their name, you know because that's virtual real estate that is only going to appreciate in value.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nAubrey: So if I'm a speaker, thought leader, and I have any idea that I might want to do this one day, owning the url is the first step, because that's something that you want to make sure also, that you own your own space online for the future, right yeah, absolutely.
\n\nStuart: And, as you say, moving into a world where it's going to get increasingly difficult, slash impossible to tell the difference between a surface view, at least, between what is, I'm going to say, real but even have to air quotes real these days, but what is genuinely authentically you, actually you versus what isn't the whole idea of. At least this is the place that you own, and if stuff appears outside of that, it's one degree of credibility less. The place that you own has to be the place that is the, the sort, the single source of truth of what you're willing to put out there. It's, uh, again, increasingly important, and even more so for people like authors and speakers, people who business, owners, who appear out there in the world more than just an employee on the street that doesn't really have an online presence. The fact there's so much of your content out there I mean this podcast. We're 180 episodes in, so that's 180 episodes on awesome.
\n\nYeah, 180, 180 hours of me talking about this out there real achievement, other podcasts that we've achieved. So if someone's scraping and wants to create content that sounds like me but isn't me, hey, I've fed them a lot of stuff to kind of feed that machine, but at least I know that no one else is putting stuff on my website. It's the place that I've got the keys to.
\n\nAubrey: I'll give you a hot take for this, but I do really believe that as a society, we are recognizing AI generated content quicker and quicker than ever before. We are starting to notice the patterns of how AI writes content, for example. So, like, the here's blank is going to be chat GPT. We know that right, but I think we're going to eventually, and I think of the saying. What makes me think of this is the saying that I wanted AI to do the dishes and the laundry while I created art, but instead AI is creating art while I do the dishes and laundry, and I think that's so true to where eventually, we will start going online.
\n\nNow, I'm not discrediting AI within content strategies, because AI is always going to be better for creating efficiencies, but are you going to build that same trust using AI as we, as a society, start understanding what AI looks like? There's times I'm sure you've come across something where you're like I can tell that's an AI generated article, or I can tell that this page has AI generated content. Now, there's nothing bad about that, but we're trading the trust and authority for efficiency. So I always want to remind people about AI generated content. Is it worth it? Is that trait of efficiency worth the authority and authenticity of your voice, because that answer is going to be different for everybody, right?
\n\nStuart: exactly, yeah, exactly. It's understanding the trade-off, and that's again. I mean. We started by saying that I was excited by this show because we got such a line thinking about things. Obviously, people ask us about ai generated books and you said exactly what I say. The reason for, the only reason you would do it is either you don't have your own ideas which isn't true for the majority of people that we work with or you're definitely not a good idea, if you're a speaker or thought leader, to be going out ideas.
\n\nGood luck, yeah it's relatively self-selecting, yeah, or you're trying to do it for efficiency and the reality, particularly using our process up from the book generation side of things is it's 90 minutes of your time and it's 100% of your voice and if the outcome is a conversation, the outcome isn't a product. You're not trying to sell a book for $5 and sell a million books and then retire. You're trying to have conversations with people who are eventually going to come in through your door or jump on, zoom and talk with you. If the book doesn't represent the way that you speak or the way that you think or your approach, that's a disconnect, that isn't gonna, that isn't gonna jive. And then the language and trying to clean up what is generated to make it in your voice. It's just not efficient. It's not the best way of doing it.
\n\nA much better way of doing it is create some unique, authentic content yourself, like this podcast. We've got an hour now that we've been talking about this. We'll absolutely use ai to amplify it afterwards. But the efficiencies that we're doing is in the distribution and the generation and the clipping. It's not in the ideas or the thoughts. The ideas and thoughts are the uniquely I don't want to say the uniquely human thing, because that sounds a bit pretentious, but it's the uniquely our thing and our approach in the way that we do it. So definitely use AI to amplify things, but don't use it as the seed of the thoughts.
\n\nAubrey: Right, and there's also there's really no true answer yet about how Google is going to handle AI generated content.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nAubrey: How search engines are going to handle AI generated content. Now, my personal belief is that eventually, all content will have to be run through an AI for the optimization, and that's how Google will approach that and we'll you know, for us as content creators and us as search engine people, we'll have to make tweaks and optimize from there, and you know, the humans will come in after getting the feedback from the AI. But the dystopian view is what is twofold? What if Google doesn't prioritize AI at all?
\n\nRight prioritize AI at all. You've been creating all of your content and all of a sudden, google says that content is not valid and legitimate content for our search engine anymore. What's the next step? The second dystopian fact is that, ultimately, when we're talking about keywords and we're talking about rankings, humans are going to make the decision about their business better than an AI, and I firmly believe that. And what an AI risks is getting into negative feedback cycles to where the AI doesn't know the difference.
\n\nRight, if it's raining or overcast, if it's supposed to rain, if the forecast says it's raining, we can look outside and be like, oh, it's just overcast, I don't need my raincoat. So I think that's something. To be weary is probably not the right word, but look around the corner, right and start thinking about that, and maybe the answer will be one day that Google says all content that's gonna be ranked properly needs to be generated by AI. Maybe that will be the case, but there will always be a need for us, as humans, to step in and increase the effectiveness, authority and legitimacy of whatever that efficiency is creating.
\n\nStuart: And I think that ties us up neatly in coming back to the whole idea of personal brands, because it's that individual approach to doing things. We see this with financial advisors a lot. I mean, a 401k is a 401k at the end of the day, but how they present their business, their priorities, how they work with people, the care that they give to their clients, that's the differentiator. And just as much as one person will work great with this group of people, another person will work great with this group of people. So there's an abundance out there where just you as your personality, your presence, is more than enough to win at this game. Um, time always goes fast, it's uh, pleasure talking with you.
\n\nAubrey: Great to come on.
\n\nStuart: Thank you for having me yeah, no problem, we should definitely circle back in a few months and do a kind of a 202 or follow-up level. I want to make sure that people we gave some great pointers there for people in terms of thinking about how they should bring their personal brand together, but then of course it runs up against the practicalities of doing it. So I want to make sure that people can kind of pull some more of your resources and see what you guys do, because you've got a lot of great stuff over there to take this to the next level. So where's a good place for people to go?
\n\nAubrey:* Yeah, the first step I always recommend with people is the data, everything online. For little people to go yeah, the first step I always recommend with people is the data, everything online. We talked about the math. It all comes back to data. It all comes back to making informed decisions. We offer complimentary search engine optimization audits.
\n\nSo if you go to alterendeavors. com and you go on the side menu, you can find our complimentary SEO audit. We'll go through, look at all the data, all the traffic. If you don't have a personal brand site yet, what we can do is we can look at some of your competitors and see what they're doing and see what resonates with your story and your mission. But at the end of the day, why I say to start with that is because websites are only as good as the traffic you drive to them. And if we're not driving quality traffic to a site for a speaker, for a thought leader, for a personal brand, it's going to be difficult to get good speaking engagements right, it's going to be difficult to get good consulting jobs, to get that good end point. So that's why I think starting with what is the actual search term, the strategy for getting organic rankings, so on and so forth. That's what I always recommend to start with. So you can go to alterendeavors.com and in our menu there's a free SEO audit.
\n\nStuart: Perfect, and I'll make sure I'll link directly to it as well in the show notes so, as people are listening either in a podcast player or on the website, they can just click straight through.
\n\nI'll also link your LinkedIn profile as well, so people can connect with you directly, directly. We could talk for so much longer and looking forward to doing another one of these and diving a little bit deeper. It's such a, as we start off by saying, it's such a great crossover between what we do and the way that we talk to people and try and get people to think about a book. The fact that you guys aren't thinking about a website purely from a design perspective and it has to look pretty and not really that worried about functionality or who's engaging with you, really, starting with the end in mind of this thing, is here to do a job of work and let's make sure that it does that. So, yeah, ties in so well. I'll be. Thanks again, buddy. Really appreciate it everyone. Thanks for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes for links straight through and then we will catch you again in the next one thanks.
","summary":"Today, on the Book More Show, I spoke with Aubrey Berkowitz of Alter Endeavors and Armada Digital. He shared how thought leaders, authors, and speakers can establish an online presence that strengthens their distinct brand and captures qualified leads. \r\n\r\nWe explored the evolution of personal branding in a post-pandemic digital world and the vital role of a focused online platform. Aubrey also provided proven conversion strategies for driving speaking opportunities through tailored pitches and comprehensive, accessible content that pre-qualifies the speaker. \r\n\r\nLastly, we discussed leveraging books and other assets to build online credibility and maintain an authentic personal voice in today's AI-influenced landscape.","date_published":"2024-08-23T11:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/baa427b8-3905-4162-a9a7-38efa523dc10.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":57460379,"duration_in_seconds":3550}]},{"id":"9c9c36a8-50d1-42f4-84fe-53a26695147f","title":"Ep171: Smooth Selling with Craig Lowder","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/171","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Craig Lowder from MainSpring Sales.\n\nCraig shares how his book Smooth Selling Forever established his credibility and sparked meaningful conversations with many new leads.\n\nCraig explains how a book can do more than sell - it can strengthen relationships in today's digital market, and really set the stage for a trusted relationship. We explore shifting sales strategies, with Craig emphasizing adapting methods to virtual selling.\n\nFrom online presence to tracking indicators, his insights are actionable as he emphasizes the importance of audits and feedback loops in sales performance. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nCraig discusses his transition from corporate life to entrepreneurship and the founding of MainSpring Sales Group.\nWe explore the role of Craig's book, \"Smooth Selling Forever,\" in establishing credibility and fostering meaningful business conversations.\nCraig and I examine the shifting dynamics of buyer decision-making in today's market and the importance of being present during the online research phase.\nWe discuss the need to adapt traditional sales methodologies to fit the virtual selling environment, emphasizing the importance of tracking leading indicators over lagging ones.\nCraig highlights the significance of maintaining a robust online presence and delivering a differentiating message to attract potential clients.\nWe delve into how advancements in AI can enhance personal connections in a digital context, making it crucial for businesses to stay ahead of the curve.\nCraig emphasizes the importance of writing a book to showcase expertise and how it can serve as a powerful tool for business growth and trust-building.\nWe discuss the proactive role sales executives can play in content creation and lead generation, even when corporate support is lacking.\nCraig shares insights on conducting a sales operations audit to identify areas for improvement and leveraging external resources to enhance performance.\nWe explore the nuances of professional growth, focusing on refining and systematizing processes and preparing for future transitions through effective systems and trusted individuals.\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/171\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nCraig Lowder:\nWebsite: Smooth Selling Forever | \nLinkedIn: Craig Lowder\nBook: Amazon Listing\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n \n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Craig Lowder. Craig, how are you doing? \n\nCraig: It's a wonderful day here in Wisconsin. Thank you for inviting me, Stuart. \n\nStuart: I'm excited. So this is one of the shows. I kind of reference it sometimes with how I know the people, just to give the audience context. We're kind of 170 or so episodes in now, so there's a bit of a bit of history about how the show runs. \n\nSo the conversation with Craig came from a LinkedIn introduction through mutual conversation and again one of those really interesting calls, and there's such a strong crossover with our audience here that I think this is going to be really insightful for people, not only because you've used a book for your business for a long period of time, so they'd be interested to hear a little bit about that but also the nature of the work that you do in the kind of orchestration of new business through referrals and cold connections and helping people make that outreach, which, at the end of the day, is why the majority of people who write books with us write those books. So, with that being said, why don't you give a bit of an introduction to everyone about you and what you do and then we can dive into some details? \n\nCraig: Thank you, stuart. I grew up as a child if everybody's seen that movie First person in my family ever to go to college, received a degree in marketing and a graduate degree in marketing and finance, did the corporate route for about five years and decided I was not a fit for corporate. And for the past 40 years I've been working in small to mid-sized business. What does that mean? Those are companies anywhere from startup to 200. And typically it's in the 10 to 50, 10 to 75 million dollar range. \n\nAnd back in 2012, I decided to get off the road and stop doing turnarounds and restarts and go into my own strategic sales consulting business called the MainSpring Sales Group. And as part of that, like we all meet the best people that we can possibly meet through referrals. I was introduced to a gentleman that spoke on sales out of Philadelphia and he says Craig, you really ought to write a book and I know just the guy you should write it with. And he introduced me to my publisher. And back in 2016, I published my first book, smooth Selling Forever, which was designed specifically for small and mid-sized business owners who were struggling to significantly and profitably grow their top line on a predictable and consistent basis. \n\nSo this book was designed to share my experience over three decades and what are the 12 reasons that I found why sales are falling short of expectations I'm going to use the word expectations literally anticipated, dreamed of, et cetera and what to do about it. And this has become a bestseller on Amazon and my publisher just asked me the other day he says you use the book differently than a lot of our other authors and speakers do Can you tell me how many clients and how much revenue this has potentially generated from you since 2016? And I said you know what. I'm glad you asked 28 new clients and just short of $1.1 million in personal income. \n\nStuart: Right, and that's the key difference, isn't it that expectation gap or break from the traditional world where publishing is very the book is the product and we're doubling down on that as the gateway to things through to a more orchestrated way of using a book as a tool to start a conversation and engage with those clients. The conversation with the publisher there were they surprised because your approach was different from everyone else and this was kind of like new news to them? Or had they started seeing other people doing things and you were the best example? So they were reaching out to you as someone who'd been doing it for a while. \n\nCraig: That's a great question, stuart. Many of the other authors that they work with are also professional speakers, so they were using their book to provide credibility in order to get them speaking engagements, along with their sizzle reel, and my goal was not to become a professional speaker, but rather have an impact on business owners' lives, and this was used really also as my business card and a credibility builder in order to convey to the reader that this is not my first rodeo. I've been doing this for a long time and the results that we achieved across a wide variety of industries in the b2b sector could apply to them, and it was designed to facilitate that opening conversation yeah, that orchestrating in that journey. \n\nStuart: They're using it with a particular case in mind, not just to kind of build it and they will come, type mentality. It opened so many doors because, as he said, the credibility, the authority, the value of the gift giving, the bringing all of the pieces together under one, within one jacket, under under one banner it has a outsized benefit compared with the same information spread out across a website or on various YouTube videos. Just the medium itself does something different. Do you find that the majority of people who get a copy of the book get a digital copy of the book or a physical copy of the book? \n\nCraig: Well, or audio copy, which is the third, the audience that I think that is attracted to me. They like something tactile, something that they can hold in their hands. And what really surprised me, stuart, is when I would go in and meet with prospects or clients. There were post-it notes throughout it, pages were dog-eared, there were areas highlighted and it's like I never really anticipated this. \n\nAnd hey, craig, you said on page 47 this Can you unwrap that a little bit for me? Yeah, and that was a foundation for developing a trusted relationship that was founded in depth and experience and having proof points, actual stories that I could communicate to my prospective clients. So again, they would say, okay, you've been there, done that. Now I'm still just wondering how you can help me. So I'm going to test you a little bit and see how you respond, and there's a way that I go about doing that to make sure that I cover the full spectrum of a business owner's needs and they understand there's a lot more than they imagined. Or there were a lot of things that they haven't even thought about yet that they need to consider to grow that top line predictably and sustainably. \n\nStuart: Right, that element that you were talking about there including some stories in there, and the fact that people turn the page over and in a conversation that, without the book, would have started with hi who are you, what you do? The discovery piece of the conversation, and both parties are kind of testing the ground as they go. But the fact that the book does so much of the preemptive work to get you on the same page, not only does it speed up that conversation because they know your way of thinking, but the fact that they're playing your words back to you and then when you elaborate and dive into it, they're not hearing it for the first time, you're just reinforcing something that they believe already because otherwise they wouldn't be on the call. Such an advantage over just cold outreach or even outreach in any other way. It's difficult to get that same volume of understanding or buy-in or belief from a client through email or video or anything that isn't a book. Now, not to say that those pieces that don't form part of the puzzle, for sure, but a book has an amplifier that really kind of accelerates all of the other things. Um, yeah, such a fantastic tool. \n\nLet me ask you about the content. So you were saying that the first book there was kind of 12 steps or 12 elements that broadly business owners need to know about the pipeline or the funnel or sustainability. Those 12 things were they? It's the best way of asking were they kind of foundational to the work that you've done over the prior decades and they were really clear tentpole pieces that easily came together in a book? Or did you start off with an idea and then it was a job of work to pull together the actual pieces that went into the book? \n\nCraig: That's a great question as well, stuart. It's really a compilation of my learning over three decades, listening to other very wise people and mentors, jumping into it both feet and breaking a leg and learning and always coming away with okay, what did I learn from that experience? Continue to do what I'm doing, do something a little bit different. So it's really a compilation of what I've seen, because at the time I went into business, we were still sort of in the era of the corporate man who goes to work and works for the same organization for 30, 40 years and I found myself changing companies every 18 to 24 months. So during those 30 years I was employed by probably 16, 17 different employers and each case they were facing the same challenge. They were on the same quest they wanted to grow that top line profitably. \n\nAnd how do I do that predictably and sustainably? And I kind of fell into it's all about the strategic sales infrastructure. So it's growing, it's changing, it's understanding that the buying environment, our sales environment, is not static. Rather, it's constantly changing. Therefore, we need to periodically test our beliefs, our tools, our systems, either if there's something dramatic that changes in the business environment or you put something on your calendar, it says every three months, every six months, I'm going to sit down and review what I'm doing to ensure it's still working the way that I intended it to work and if it's not, it's a matter of stepping back and reassessing and saying what do I need to do to change? \n\nStuart: Right. It's such a great point, isn't it? Because there's so many indicators, particularly when you're busy and you've got to head down in the job. There's so many indicators that turn out to be lagging indicators rather than that upfront indication of what will still be successful this month and in a couple of months, in the future. It's very easy I don't want to use the word kind of sit back on your laurels, because I don't think that's the. I don't think that's most people do. It's just that all of a sudden, it's may the 14th as we record this, and yesterday it was new year. The year goes by very fast. \n\nSo if you don't structure something, put something in the diary, have a reason to review something, it's very easy to get caught out and, as you say, the ground's moved underneath and an algorithmic change has happened or a market change has happened, and you catch yourself on the back foot. That that philosophy of having those scheduled check-ins, those review periods, the framework which people review, the things that they're looking at, so if it's a marketing strategy or outreach strategy, or the email sequence or even their onboarding, that's very poor practice. I forgot to mute my phone before we started that practice of scheduling. The review is something that people can get their head around, but is there a particular framework or a way that you suggest approaching how that review is done? The idea of suggesting to people that they do like a ground up review of everything is a little bit cumbersome. But are there some techniques or pointers or tricks that people can have to make that process a little bit more effective or efficient there? \n\nCraig: is. And, yeah, at the highest level you can do a SWOT analysis or a PESTEL analysis, but that really, or together, and that really takes some effort and it takes a group of people, including the owner, to have that discussion, a group of people including the owner to have that discussion. But for what I do, it's about lead conversion, execution sales execution four areas. Take a look at your strategic growth strategy right channels, right products, et cetera. Secondly, sales methodology your lead conversion process. Does that documented process still hold true? Third, and you mentioned that, lagging indicators what I refer to as sales success standards and, between us, we won't say it out loud, they're KPIs. However, results and you said it are lagging indicators and most companies need to focus on the leading indicators, which are the activities. So now we're getting into the 30. Well, what are our sales leadership or sales management practices? Are they still relevant? Are there ways that we can enhance them? And then, finally, hiring and performance management. \n\nMost of the companies that I see today are struggling with what's worked in the past and we are in a different world of sales and marketing. \n\nWe are in a virtual selling and digital self-serve world and owners have to understand that if they're seeking leads. They need to have a very strong online presence in a number of areas and understanding that the old days of belly-to-belly selling is not what you need to be doing today and it's not the sellers that are driving it, it's the buyers. Particularly as they're getting younger, they're saying I don't want to meet with you, I can do all my research online. So the smart companies, they're still doing in-person meetings, but the many of those are moving to virtual meetings, like what we're doing today, and the telephone conversations are moving to virtual conversations. So we can go face to face, eye to eye, see the facial expressions and, as a guy that I used to work for, from Missouri, when he didn't believe something he'd say cripple that bird flat by me again. Or he'd say that dog don't hunt. And. But you know you could see it in his words, the expression on his face, and you lose so much if you don't see the expressions on someone's face. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nCraig: Stuart, you're not quite I'm not sure you quite fully comprehend what I'm saying. You know, come back to me, tell me what you're thinking right now, what you're feeling right now, so that we can develop a closer bond and a trusted relationship. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such a great point, isn't it? Even people's attention. I mean, it's easy to be on a phone call and walking around doing something else, but on a Zoom call you've definitely got that eye to eye attention and it makes so much more of a connection, much more of a connection. I like what you were saying about the multi-channel approach and the fact that there's such a expectation now of digital delivery of things or instant access to information, the fact that so much of the research is done beforehand, and I think it's a gap in some people's process where they assume that all of the knowledge is only what's delivered to people, it's only what they push out, rather than all of the either explicit or implicit knowledge that people gather before they even get to the call. \n\nIt's was talking to someone last week and we were saying that a book isn't at the same stage as a website. There isn't the same expectation that if you don't have a website. I mean, we're old enough to remember pre-website days and then website was a curiosity, and then it was a nice to have, and then it was a convenience and now it's a an indication that there's some kind of problem if a company isn't, doesn't have an online presence. A book isn't quite to that degree, but there's definitely a lot of telegraphing and bridging the gap between the old world of making a personal connection and things being printed on paper and typeset by monks, through to a digital delivery and a Zoom call and reinforcing some of the information that was said. So I think it's definitely an opportunity for people to revisit their strategy, particularly for legacy companies or legacy industries. \n\nGoing off on a little bit of a tangent here, but just as we're recording this, openai released their latest version of their model and the presentation they did had some videos showing the demonstrations and it was very interactive voice back and forth conversation with a with an ai agent. So the opportunities to kind of make some of that personal connection with people but then bring them to a real personal connection. It's people buy from people. They don't buy from web pages for a lot of the businesses that we're in a Bit of a tangent there, sorry. \n\nCraig: There's a scary thing in today's buying environment. Picture an upside down snowman with three balls and, of course, the biggest one is on top. When a buyer makes a person's decision, they go through the process of cognitive thinking what do I need to buy? Divergent thinking Now who can I buy it from? In convergent thinking, this is who I'm going to buy it from. The cognitive thinking aspects is all being done online now. Or the buyers reaching out to people they know and trust and say, hey, I'm looking at buying this. Who do you know have you had experience with? And, quite frankly, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, with the younger professionals. They're doing all their research online. So it's absolutely critical that we are where they're doing their research and we're delivering an impactful differentiating message so that they say they need to be on the list under consideration. And maybe even before I decide what I'm going to buy, I may want to reach out to them and have a conversation with them to see if I'm missing anything, so that I get my decision criteria right. \n\nStuart: Right, yeah, that's a great point as well, and it does tie in with. \n\nI mean, obviously the premise of the podcast is we're talking to people who have considered a book or have written a book at some point, so bridging it back to that subject all the time. It's not that a book is the right answer for everyone, but I think it gives an easy framework for people to hang their hat on or to overlay their business model. On the point there that some people, when writing, we hear people say, oh, I don't want to put all my secrets out there, I don't want to give too much information there, this idea that people have secrets and they've got a completely unique way of doing things. It's the absolute minority where that's correct. Now you might have a better way of implementing it, or the way that you deal with people, or the soft skills. All of that might combine so that it is better. But the knowledge, the information itself nowadays is less likely to be that thing. Two minutes of Googling will get you all the answers that you want, and then it's the discerning piece and everything else. \n\nCraig: So that how true, how true. And because the shopping is being done online, you're better off giving for free, making easily accessible many of those differentiators. Otherwise you're never going to have the opportunity to have a conversation with that person, right? Because? They see you as just a commodity. \n\nStuart: Right and someone else. They've built that relationship with someone else who is given the information, whether it's on an email sequence that they've been receiving for years or a YouTube channel that they watch, or whether they're just searching for the first place and they resonate with a video that they see that helps them answer a question. So how then does that tie in with probably, I guess let's think about some numbers. So maybe 70 to 80% of the people who will receive this podcast by email are lists that we send out to small business owners or people responsible for their own book. So there's a very one-to-one relationship between the business, the overall outcome and the outreach that they do. And then there's another group of people who are kind of the sales executives or the advisors responsible for their own book, but they don't necessarily own the business. \n\nAnd it's sometimes a case where that second group of people, although they're completely responsible for the book themselves, for closing the deals, there is a bit of well, I'm waiting for the corporate organization to do some stuff. I'm sat here struggling for leads because the parent organization aren't pulling their weight, aren't doing their things. Now, for me, I think that they've got the opportunity to take ownership of that and even if they're not the parent organization, they've still got the opportunity to create content, to write the book, to create the videos, to outreach to people talking about that industry. With the people that you work with, do you find that a kind of a cognitive gap between people wanting to improve their sales but almost kind of sat waiting for the company to do some more stuff, or is everyone that you're working with a little bit more dialed in and proactive, whether or not they own the company? \n\nCraig: That again is a great question. I feel that they fall into two camps. That's my experience. Either they're waiting for the company or they don't know what they don't know. They don't know what they're missing and how they can I'm not going to say fix or improve, but enhance what they're currently doing. And in many cases where a company has a senior sales leader, they're really looking for a resource to help them make those changes so they can enhance their performance. And they need to understand that I'm a resource, that I can enhance their performance, and they need to understand that I'm a resource that I can work alongside them and actually do a lot of the work for them with their input, so they don't have to do it. \n\nIn most cases, sales leaders say I'm already too busy, I can't take on anything else. Well, we're going to bring somebody else in to help you. No, that's my job, I can do it. And the reality is it's kind of a catch-22. They want to do things differently or they're not quite sure what other options exist for them. So in many cases it makes sense to bring in an external resource to help them open their eyes. Open their eyes and I do that through a sales operations audit to help them determine where they're good and where they need to take a closer look at at specifics in order to enhance the performance of the sales department. \n\nStuart: Right and those audits on the sales operations does that. I guess it works equally well for both. But is that mainly for small individual operations or sales departments where they've got multiple sales team members as part of the bigger organization? Does it have to be it only works at the organization level or does it equally work for individuals? \n\nCraig: Yeah, there's actually a third option there, stuart. If I look at the businesses that I work with, they're bringing me in as a hired guy and a hired consultant to work alongside the sales team to assess, design and deploy solutions, but they're responsible for execution. So my role is of an external sales consultant resource break, fix it's broken, let's fix it, let them execute. I'm also hired with larger companies as a retained sales operations person that works as part of the sales department to put in the strategic sales infrastructure and marketing infrastructure that's needed in order to enhance performance. And the reality is we have to get good at lead conversion or sales execution, before we should turn on the lead generation pump. Why? Because it's like taking a bucket with holes in it out to the water pump and trying to fill it with water, and imagine that water is leads. Unless you're doing a great job of converting your leads, a lot of your good leads are going to evaporate into the soil. \n\nStuart: Nothing is going to happen right, it's such a great point and I think maybe we talked about this on the when we were catching up prior to the podcast we talked about the pulling the wrong lever is pretty ineffective and the difficulty is where there's kind of for good or bad siloed thinking around. Okay, well, I've got control over this element and I can send more leads into the funnel, but I don't necessarily see the conversion bit down the road. I was I can't remember whether we talked about it or I was telling someone else there was the NHS in the UK, the hospital medical service. There was a big push like it was headline news that waiting times accident and emergency was terrible and people were sat there for 10 hours. So there was a big push to reduce waiting times in A&E rooms. Well, that was fine and the numbers came down. It was headlines about how good it was. \n\nBut then six months later there was a report about how many people were on trolleys gurneys behind the door of A&E. So they were being processed and assessed at that first checkpoint. That was being measured. But then they were just being put on trolleys in the back in the corridors because there wasn't enough room to be actually seen. So this idea of pulling the wrong lever. Yeah, it's fine to get people assessed, triaged, at that first point, but if you're just moving the problem further down and I like your analogy of the leaky bucket it's a really wasteful to think that this is the answer to move, when actually he is pushing people into a system that doesn't that they can't convert. \n\nCraig: Yeah, so, regardless of whether it's sales or medical services, it's all systemic is the issue, and the challenge is really getting to the root cause of doing that analysis and find out in what ways that we can change the moving parts in a way that we're more efficient and more effective. \n\nStuart: Right, yeah, yeah For the greater good. Looking at it holistically, at the outcomes, not just the activities, which is difficult, whether you're working by yourself and you've got only a certain amount of time in the day. At it holistically, at the the outcomes, not just the activities, which is difficult. I mean whether you're working by yourself and you've got kind of only a certain amount of time in the day, so your focus gets narrowed on one particular thing, or you're part of a big organization and this is your role and this is someone else's role. It can be. Even with the best intentions. It can be difficult to think about that higher level or higher outcome thinking without someone else being kind of in the mix to prompt you with the right questions or guide you in the right way exactly the book and the people that you help and the kind of first steps that they take. \n\nAgain, the audience listening a bit of a mix of business owners and people responsible for their own book, but everyone's responsible for their own book in the sense of their own book, of business, not book. But everyone who's kind of raised their hand and is interested has been brought to the idea of writing a book as a lead generation tool. So they're all ultimately interested in more business, more sales. So the book's got 12 points in there. We were talking about some of the strategic reviews and some of the making sure that we pull the right levers. When you're talking with people maybe from stage or first meeting or that first introduction point you have to them what's the low hanging fruit or the first steps that people can take, as they're kind of thinking about I need to do something better in this world. \n\nCraig: The first step is really a conversation or a reflection or a conversation with a group of trusted advisors to identify where we want to be a year from now, what are our goals a year from now, up to three years from now, and what are the challenges we're going to face in getting there. So I typically will talk to a business owner or a trusted advisor, even someone that is interested in publishing a book, and say what's your desired outcomes for that book, what are your top three initiatives, goals that you want to achieve, what are your challenges in getting there? The key, in my mind, is their ability to articulate where they're going, where they want to get to and the challenges they're going to face, and then from there you can get into a more extended conversation about needs, wants, challenges and, based on the business you're in and what your book is about, I highly recommend what I do is a sales operations audit. It could be an audit for anything, but it's designed to engage the prospective client and have them think about what they do, and I can tell you of the 32 questions that I asked about, 10% are getting answered complete. \n\n90% is incomplete, and for two reasons. Number one I've never thought about that. No one has ever said that to me. We need to think about that or we've been thinking about it, we just haven't done anything yet, right yeah? So the reality the companies that I work with the authors, I work with, the financial advisors I work with they're already successful in their own right, so they're not broken, they don't need to be fixed, but rather there is a lot of opportunity for personal and professional growth there If you look at things globally and you look at it from a systematic perspective globally and you look at it from a systematic perspective. \n\nStuart: Right, it's such a great point, isn't it? Particularly, it's different for people starting off the career and they're just starting because they don't have this kind of group of assets mental assets or actual assets to do something with. But anyone who's been in business for more than a year, you've experienced at least 80% of all of the experiences that you're going to have for the rest of your life. You're just going to see them in different ways. You kind of know what the answers are, the objections and the questions that come up. All of that within a year has been at least touched upon once. \n\nSo there's some, some what's what I'm blanking on? \n\nNot professionalism, but some execution techniques or speciality around how you can answer it and how comfortable you are with answering it and anticipating what comes next. Kind of, with the familiarity and experience, you kind of improve your game a little bit. But as far as the breadth goes and the opportunity to make those first conversations, those first outreaches, if you've been doing this for a year, it's not unknown, knowns, it's known, unknowns or whatever the analogy is. So having that opportunity to talk to someone or work with someone, or certainly will make sure that people can get a know where they can go to get a copy of the book as we wrap up in a minute. But it's not a knowledge gap, it's a execution gap. It's not an understanding gap, it a implementation gap. So I think that when people think about it in that way, it makes it a lot less daunting for people, because having that confidence that you know the stuff this is just about making it as efficient as possible. I think that makes it easy, an easier step for people to take. \n\nCraig: They then just need to take the step I agree wholeheartedly, and I look at clients who have the attitude I'm a lifetime learner. I don't know everything and I need to surround myself with other smart people that I trust. I need to review what's going on in my business on a regular basis and I need to understand that systems should run my business and not individual people right because, it's all about putting systems in your business and hiring people who can execute and enhance the systems that are currently in place. \n\nRight, that's what creates a winning team yeah, yeah. \n\nStuart: It not only gives a an element of redundancy in case something happens that one individual you're not in a kind of like this key man situation where it all falls down, but also gives those individuals the opportunity to amplify what they do, because they might be the best person in the world at what their particular job, but they have to interact with other people. None of these roles are isolated completely. So at least then, having that system and framework in place, even if their piece is down and they're not going anywhere, how that interfaces with the other organizations, how they get the information in and then where it gets passed to, systematizing that it just streamlines the whole process absolutely, and if you're looking at career progression or you get concerned about somebody retiring, if you have the systems in place, then it's much easier for you to backfill that position, assuming that you're bringing somebody in with the right experience, skills and personality. \n\nYeah, just makes it so much more the opportunity to think about it while you're not having the pressure of a critical situation you need to deal with. Being able to think about that structure beforehand it makes it. What's the triangle? You can have it cheap, fast or good, and you've got to pick two of the three. You can't have all three, so at least by Cheap fast or good two of the three you can't have all three, so at least by four. \n\nCraig: Cheap press are good. Yeah, you can pick. \n\nStuart: It's all a balancing act, right? Yeah, exactly so, at least having looked at the good element, the systematization element of it beforehand. At a moment where you need something fast, you're not having to sacrifice or let too many balls drop it at that critical moment. Time always goes fast on these podcasts it's it's like we enter a different time warp. It'd be really good to circle back a bit further down the track six, eight months out and then kind of allow people to consume some of the things that we've been talking about and then touch base again a little bit later in the summer and kind of give like the 202 level for people. But I want to make sure that they've. Anyone listening now has got the opportunity to learn more about what you do. Grab a copy of the book, for sure, and then kind of start working through these 12 elements to kind of refine some of their thinking around these things. So where's a good place for people to go, as they listen, to learn more about you? Get a copy of the book, see what the organization's about. \n\nCraig: I believe there are two really viable options. Number one if what you heard today resonates with you, you can go to Amazon and pick up the book Smooth Selling Forever. It's available in Kindle as well as printed copy, either soft cover or hard cover. Or if you say sounds interesting, but I'd like to learn a little bit more, feel free to reach out to me directly. I'd be happy to have a conversation with you. You can email me at craig@smoothsellingforever.com and be happy to have a conversation with you. \n\nStuart: That's perfect and we'll put a link directly through to those, both the Amazon listing and the email address and phone number. We'll put those in the show notes. So, whether people are listening on a podcast player or on the website, we'll have links directly through Craig. Like I say, time goes so fast on these calls. There's so much information to share with people. I think some of the takeaways that, or some of the elements that we've talked about today, even if people take that one takeaway as the seed and then can you just spend we're in the middle of may now. I think we're a couple of weeks ahead on on recording, so this will be the beginning of june probably when we go live. So that's heading into the perfect time. \n\nThe summer is typically a time where there's a little bit of a downside. We're way past tax season for all the financial guys and summer's breaking up and vacation time. So I think this opportunity to assess the situation, start to think about a review of the operations that you've got in the processes, grab a copy of the book and go through the steps and then reach out to you directly with questions. This, coincidentally, this podcast, I think, is landing perfectly for all people as far as timing goes. So, yeah, just thanks again for being so open and sharing what you do, and it'd be great to circle back in a few months and give people the next installment be enjoyable. \n\nCraig: I hope that your listening audience has some actual items that they can begin working on immediately, and I'd be honored if you were to ask me to come back again and speak on something more in depth or a specific topic. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, as people are listening and checking out the show notes. If you've got any questions for Craig, we can certainly address those in the next one, but the quickest route is absolutely reach out directly, so do that. But yeah, craig, we can certainly address those in the next one, but the quickest route is absolutely reach out directly, so so do that. But yeah, we can circle back and see what, see what has come from the audience and answer some questions. Okay, everyone, thanks for listening. Again, check out the show notes in the podcast players and on the website for Craig's contact details directly. Really recommend getting a copy of the book and, as I say, the summer is the perfect time to review the operations and really get those things dialed in. So thanks for listening and we will catch you all in the next one. Cheers. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Craig Lowder from MainSpring Sales.
\n\nCraig shares how his book Smooth Selling Forever established his credibility and sparked meaningful conversations with many new leads.
\n\nCraig explains how a book can do more than sell - it can strengthen relationships in today's digital market, and really set the stage for a trusted relationship. We explore shifting sales strategies, with Craig emphasizing adapting methods to virtual selling.
\n\nFrom online presence to tracking indicators, his insights are actionable as he emphasizes the importance of audits and feedback loops in sales performance.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/171
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Craig Lowder:
\nWebsite: Smooth Selling Forever |
\nLinkedIn: Craig Lowder
\nBook: Amazon Listing
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Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Craig Lowder. Craig, how are you doing?
\n\nCraig: It's a wonderful day here in Wisconsin. Thank you for inviting me, Stuart.
\n\nStuart: I'm excited. So this is one of the shows. I kind of reference it sometimes with how I know the people, just to give the audience context. We're kind of 170 or so episodes in now, so there's a bit of a bit of history about how the show runs.
\n\nSo the conversation with Craig came from a LinkedIn introduction through mutual conversation and again one of those really interesting calls, and there's such a strong crossover with our audience here that I think this is going to be really insightful for people, not only because you've used a book for your business for a long period of time, so they'd be interested to hear a little bit about that but also the nature of the work that you do in the kind of orchestration of new business through referrals and cold connections and helping people make that outreach, which, at the end of the day, is why the majority of people who write books with us write those books. So, with that being said, why don't you give a bit of an introduction to everyone about you and what you do and then we can dive into some details?
\n\nCraig: Thank you, stuart. I grew up as a child if everybody's seen that movie First person in my family ever to go to college, received a degree in marketing and a graduate degree in marketing and finance, did the corporate route for about five years and decided I was not a fit for corporate. And for the past 40 years I've been working in small to mid-sized business. What does that mean? Those are companies anywhere from startup to 200. And typically it's in the 10 to 50, 10 to 75 million dollar range.
\n\nAnd back in 2012, I decided to get off the road and stop doing turnarounds and restarts and go into my own strategic sales consulting business called the MainSpring Sales Group. And as part of that, like we all meet the best people that we can possibly meet through referrals. I was introduced to a gentleman that spoke on sales out of Philadelphia and he says Craig, you really ought to write a book and I know just the guy you should write it with. And he introduced me to my publisher. And back in 2016, I published my first book, smooth Selling Forever, which was designed specifically for small and mid-sized business owners who were struggling to significantly and profitably grow their top line on a predictable and consistent basis.
\n\nSo this book was designed to share my experience over three decades and what are the 12 reasons that I found why sales are falling short of expectations I'm going to use the word expectations literally anticipated, dreamed of, et cetera and what to do about it. And this has become a bestseller on Amazon and my publisher just asked me the other day he says you use the book differently than a lot of our other authors and speakers do Can you tell me how many clients and how much revenue this has potentially generated from you since 2016? And I said you know what. I'm glad you asked 28 new clients and just short of $1.1 million in personal income.
\n\nStuart: Right, and that's the key difference, isn't it that expectation gap or break from the traditional world where publishing is very the book is the product and we're doubling down on that as the gateway to things through to a more orchestrated way of using a book as a tool to start a conversation and engage with those clients. The conversation with the publisher there were they surprised because your approach was different from everyone else and this was kind of like new news to them? Or had they started seeing other people doing things and you were the best example? So they were reaching out to you as someone who'd been doing it for a while.
\n\nCraig: That's a great question, stuart. Many of the other authors that they work with are also professional speakers, so they were using their book to provide credibility in order to get them speaking engagements, along with their sizzle reel, and my goal was not to become a professional speaker, but rather have an impact on business owners' lives, and this was used really also as my business card and a credibility builder in order to convey to the reader that this is not my first rodeo. I've been doing this for a long time and the results that we achieved across a wide variety of industries in the b2b sector could apply to them, and it was designed to facilitate that opening conversation yeah, that orchestrating in that journey.
\n\nStuart: They're using it with a particular case in mind, not just to kind of build it and they will come, type mentality. It opened so many doors because, as he said, the credibility, the authority, the value of the gift giving, the bringing all of the pieces together under one, within one jacket, under under one banner it has a outsized benefit compared with the same information spread out across a website or on various YouTube videos. Just the medium itself does something different. Do you find that the majority of people who get a copy of the book get a digital copy of the book or a physical copy of the book?
\n\nCraig: Well, or audio copy, which is the third, the audience that I think that is attracted to me. They like something tactile, something that they can hold in their hands. And what really surprised me, stuart, is when I would go in and meet with prospects or clients. There were post-it notes throughout it, pages were dog-eared, there were areas highlighted and it's like I never really anticipated this.
\n\nAnd hey, craig, you said on page 47 this Can you unwrap that a little bit for me? Yeah, and that was a foundation for developing a trusted relationship that was founded in depth and experience and having proof points, actual stories that I could communicate to my prospective clients. So again, they would say, okay, you've been there, done that. Now I'm still just wondering how you can help me. So I'm going to test you a little bit and see how you respond, and there's a way that I go about doing that to make sure that I cover the full spectrum of a business owner's needs and they understand there's a lot more than they imagined. Or there were a lot of things that they haven't even thought about yet that they need to consider to grow that top line predictably and sustainably.
\n\nStuart: Right, that element that you were talking about there including some stories in there, and the fact that people turn the page over and in a conversation that, without the book, would have started with hi who are you, what you do? The discovery piece of the conversation, and both parties are kind of testing the ground as they go. But the fact that the book does so much of the preemptive work to get you on the same page, not only does it speed up that conversation because they know your way of thinking, but the fact that they're playing your words back to you and then when you elaborate and dive into it, they're not hearing it for the first time, you're just reinforcing something that they believe already because otherwise they wouldn't be on the call. Such an advantage over just cold outreach or even outreach in any other way. It's difficult to get that same volume of understanding or buy-in or belief from a client through email or video or anything that isn't a book. Now, not to say that those pieces that don't form part of the puzzle, for sure, but a book has an amplifier that really kind of accelerates all of the other things. Um, yeah, such a fantastic tool.
\n\nLet me ask you about the content. So you were saying that the first book there was kind of 12 steps or 12 elements that broadly business owners need to know about the pipeline or the funnel or sustainability. Those 12 things were they? It's the best way of asking were they kind of foundational to the work that you've done over the prior decades and they were really clear tentpole pieces that easily came together in a book? Or did you start off with an idea and then it was a job of work to pull together the actual pieces that went into the book?
\n\nCraig: That's a great question as well, stuart. It's really a compilation of my learning over three decades, listening to other very wise people and mentors, jumping into it both feet and breaking a leg and learning and always coming away with okay, what did I learn from that experience? Continue to do what I'm doing, do something a little bit different. So it's really a compilation of what I've seen, because at the time I went into business, we were still sort of in the era of the corporate man who goes to work and works for the same organization for 30, 40 years and I found myself changing companies every 18 to 24 months. So during those 30 years I was employed by probably 16, 17 different employers and each case they were facing the same challenge. They were on the same quest they wanted to grow that top line profitably.
\n\nAnd how do I do that predictably and sustainably? And I kind of fell into it's all about the strategic sales infrastructure. So it's growing, it's changing, it's understanding that the buying environment, our sales environment, is not static. Rather, it's constantly changing. Therefore, we need to periodically test our beliefs, our tools, our systems, either if there's something dramatic that changes in the business environment or you put something on your calendar, it says every three months, every six months, I'm going to sit down and review what I'm doing to ensure it's still working the way that I intended it to work and if it's not, it's a matter of stepping back and reassessing and saying what do I need to do to change?
\n\nStuart: Right. It's such a great point, isn't it? Because there's so many indicators, particularly when you're busy and you've got to head down in the job. There's so many indicators that turn out to be lagging indicators rather than that upfront indication of what will still be successful this month and in a couple of months, in the future. It's very easy I don't want to use the word kind of sit back on your laurels, because I don't think that's the. I don't think that's most people do. It's just that all of a sudden, it's may the 14th as we record this, and yesterday it was new year. The year goes by very fast.
\n\nSo if you don't structure something, put something in the diary, have a reason to review something, it's very easy to get caught out and, as you say, the ground's moved underneath and an algorithmic change has happened or a market change has happened, and you catch yourself on the back foot. That that philosophy of having those scheduled check-ins, those review periods, the framework which people review, the things that they're looking at, so if it's a marketing strategy or outreach strategy, or the email sequence or even their onboarding, that's very poor practice. I forgot to mute my phone before we started that practice of scheduling. The review is something that people can get their head around, but is there a particular framework or a way that you suggest approaching how that review is done? The idea of suggesting to people that they do like a ground up review of everything is a little bit cumbersome. But are there some techniques or pointers or tricks that people can have to make that process a little bit more effective or efficient there?
\n\nCraig: is. And, yeah, at the highest level you can do a SWOT analysis or a PESTEL analysis, but that really, or together, and that really takes some effort and it takes a group of people, including the owner, to have that discussion, a group of people including the owner to have that discussion. But for what I do, it's about lead conversion, execution sales execution four areas. Take a look at your strategic growth strategy right channels, right products, et cetera. Secondly, sales methodology your lead conversion process. Does that documented process still hold true? Third, and you mentioned that, lagging indicators what I refer to as sales success standards and, between us, we won't say it out loud, they're KPIs. However, results and you said it are lagging indicators and most companies need to focus on the leading indicators, which are the activities. So now we're getting into the 30. Well, what are our sales leadership or sales management practices? Are they still relevant? Are there ways that we can enhance them? And then, finally, hiring and performance management.
\n\nMost of the companies that I see today are struggling with what's worked in the past and we are in a different world of sales and marketing.
\n\nWe are in a virtual selling and digital self-serve world and owners have to understand that if they're seeking leads. They need to have a very strong online presence in a number of areas and understanding that the old days of belly-to-belly selling is not what you need to be doing today and it's not the sellers that are driving it, it's the buyers. Particularly as they're getting younger, they're saying I don't want to meet with you, I can do all my research online. So the smart companies, they're still doing in-person meetings, but the many of those are moving to virtual meetings, like what we're doing today, and the telephone conversations are moving to virtual conversations. So we can go face to face, eye to eye, see the facial expressions and, as a guy that I used to work for, from Missouri, when he didn't believe something he'd say cripple that bird flat by me again. Or he'd say that dog don't hunt. And. But you know you could see it in his words, the expression on his face, and you lose so much if you don't see the expressions on someone's face.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nCraig: Stuart, you're not quite I'm not sure you quite fully comprehend what I'm saying. You know, come back to me, tell me what you're thinking right now, what you're feeling right now, so that we can develop a closer bond and a trusted relationship.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such a great point, isn't it? Even people's attention. I mean, it's easy to be on a phone call and walking around doing something else, but on a Zoom call you've definitely got that eye to eye attention and it makes so much more of a connection, much more of a connection. I like what you were saying about the multi-channel approach and the fact that there's such a expectation now of digital delivery of things or instant access to information, the fact that so much of the research is done beforehand, and I think it's a gap in some people's process where they assume that all of the knowledge is only what's delivered to people, it's only what they push out, rather than all of the either explicit or implicit knowledge that people gather before they even get to the call.
\n\nIt's was talking to someone last week and we were saying that a book isn't at the same stage as a website. There isn't the same expectation that if you don't have a website. I mean, we're old enough to remember pre-website days and then website was a curiosity, and then it was a nice to have, and then it was a convenience and now it's a an indication that there's some kind of problem if a company isn't, doesn't have an online presence. A book isn't quite to that degree, but there's definitely a lot of telegraphing and bridging the gap between the old world of making a personal connection and things being printed on paper and typeset by monks, through to a digital delivery and a Zoom call and reinforcing some of the information that was said. So I think it's definitely an opportunity for people to revisit their strategy, particularly for legacy companies or legacy industries.
\n\nGoing off on a little bit of a tangent here, but just as we're recording this, openai released their latest version of their model and the presentation they did had some videos showing the demonstrations and it was very interactive voice back and forth conversation with a with an ai agent. So the opportunities to kind of make some of that personal connection with people but then bring them to a real personal connection. It's people buy from people. They don't buy from web pages for a lot of the businesses that we're in a Bit of a tangent there, sorry.
\n\nCraig: There's a scary thing in today's buying environment. Picture an upside down snowman with three balls and, of course, the biggest one is on top. When a buyer makes a person's decision, they go through the process of cognitive thinking what do I need to buy? Divergent thinking Now who can I buy it from? In convergent thinking, this is who I'm going to buy it from. The cognitive thinking aspects is all being done online now. Or the buyers reaching out to people they know and trust and say, hey, I'm looking at buying this. Who do you know have you had experience with? And, quite frankly, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, with the younger professionals. They're doing all their research online. So it's absolutely critical that we are where they're doing their research and we're delivering an impactful differentiating message so that they say they need to be on the list under consideration. And maybe even before I decide what I'm going to buy, I may want to reach out to them and have a conversation with them to see if I'm missing anything, so that I get my decision criteria right.
\n\nStuart: Right, yeah, that's a great point as well, and it does tie in with.
\n\nI mean, obviously the premise of the podcast is we're talking to people who have considered a book or have written a book at some point, so bridging it back to that subject all the time. It's not that a book is the right answer for everyone, but I think it gives an easy framework for people to hang their hat on or to overlay their business model. On the point there that some people, when writing, we hear people say, oh, I don't want to put all my secrets out there, I don't want to give too much information there, this idea that people have secrets and they've got a completely unique way of doing things. It's the absolute minority where that's correct. Now you might have a better way of implementing it, or the way that you deal with people, or the soft skills. All of that might combine so that it is better. But the knowledge, the information itself nowadays is less likely to be that thing. Two minutes of Googling will get you all the answers that you want, and then it's the discerning piece and everything else.
\n\nCraig: So that how true, how true. And because the shopping is being done online, you're better off giving for free, making easily accessible many of those differentiators. Otherwise you're never going to have the opportunity to have a conversation with that person, right? Because? They see you as just a commodity.
\n\nStuart: Right and someone else. They've built that relationship with someone else who is given the information, whether it's on an email sequence that they've been receiving for years or a YouTube channel that they watch, or whether they're just searching for the first place and they resonate with a video that they see that helps them answer a question. So how then does that tie in with probably, I guess let's think about some numbers. So maybe 70 to 80% of the people who will receive this podcast by email are lists that we send out to small business owners or people responsible for their own book. So there's a very one-to-one relationship between the business, the overall outcome and the outreach that they do. And then there's another group of people who are kind of the sales executives or the advisors responsible for their own book, but they don't necessarily own the business.
\n\nAnd it's sometimes a case where that second group of people, although they're completely responsible for the book themselves, for closing the deals, there is a bit of well, I'm waiting for the corporate organization to do some stuff. I'm sat here struggling for leads because the parent organization aren't pulling their weight, aren't doing their things. Now, for me, I think that they've got the opportunity to take ownership of that and even if they're not the parent organization, they've still got the opportunity to create content, to write the book, to create the videos, to outreach to people talking about that industry. With the people that you work with, do you find that a kind of a cognitive gap between people wanting to improve their sales but almost kind of sat waiting for the company to do some more stuff, or is everyone that you're working with a little bit more dialed in and proactive, whether or not they own the company?
\n\nCraig: That again is a great question. I feel that they fall into two camps. That's my experience. Either they're waiting for the company or they don't know what they don't know. They don't know what they're missing and how they can I'm not going to say fix or improve, but enhance what they're currently doing. And in many cases where a company has a senior sales leader, they're really looking for a resource to help them make those changes so they can enhance their performance. And they need to understand that I'm a resource, that I can enhance their performance, and they need to understand that I'm a resource that I can work alongside them and actually do a lot of the work for them with their input, so they don't have to do it.
\n\nIn most cases, sales leaders say I'm already too busy, I can't take on anything else. Well, we're going to bring somebody else in to help you. No, that's my job, I can do it. And the reality is it's kind of a catch-22. They want to do things differently or they're not quite sure what other options exist for them. So in many cases it makes sense to bring in an external resource to help them open their eyes. Open their eyes and I do that through a sales operations audit to help them determine where they're good and where they need to take a closer look at at specifics in order to enhance the performance of the sales department.
\n\nStuart: Right and those audits on the sales operations does that. I guess it works equally well for both. But is that mainly for small individual operations or sales departments where they've got multiple sales team members as part of the bigger organization? Does it have to be it only works at the organization level or does it equally work for individuals?
\n\nCraig: Yeah, there's actually a third option there, stuart. If I look at the businesses that I work with, they're bringing me in as a hired guy and a hired consultant to work alongside the sales team to assess, design and deploy solutions, but they're responsible for execution. So my role is of an external sales consultant resource break, fix it's broken, let's fix it, let them execute. I'm also hired with larger companies as a retained sales operations person that works as part of the sales department to put in the strategic sales infrastructure and marketing infrastructure that's needed in order to enhance performance. And the reality is we have to get good at lead conversion or sales execution, before we should turn on the lead generation pump. Why? Because it's like taking a bucket with holes in it out to the water pump and trying to fill it with water, and imagine that water is leads. Unless you're doing a great job of converting your leads, a lot of your good leads are going to evaporate into the soil.
\n\nStuart: Nothing is going to happen right, it's such a great point and I think maybe we talked about this on the when we were catching up prior to the podcast we talked about the pulling the wrong lever is pretty ineffective and the difficulty is where there's kind of for good or bad siloed thinking around. Okay, well, I've got control over this element and I can send more leads into the funnel, but I don't necessarily see the conversion bit down the road. I was I can't remember whether we talked about it or I was telling someone else there was the NHS in the UK, the hospital medical service. There was a big push like it was headline news that waiting times accident and emergency was terrible and people were sat there for 10 hours. So there was a big push to reduce waiting times in A&E rooms. Well, that was fine and the numbers came down. It was headlines about how good it was.
\n\nBut then six months later there was a report about how many people were on trolleys gurneys behind the door of A&E. So they were being processed and assessed at that first checkpoint. That was being measured. But then they were just being put on trolleys in the back in the corridors because there wasn't enough room to be actually seen. So this idea of pulling the wrong lever. Yeah, it's fine to get people assessed, triaged, at that first point, but if you're just moving the problem further down and I like your analogy of the leaky bucket it's a really wasteful to think that this is the answer to move, when actually he is pushing people into a system that doesn't that they can't convert.
\n\nCraig: Yeah, so, regardless of whether it's sales or medical services, it's all systemic is the issue, and the challenge is really getting to the root cause of doing that analysis and find out in what ways that we can change the moving parts in a way that we're more efficient and more effective.
\n\nStuart: Right, yeah, yeah For the greater good. Looking at it holistically, at the outcomes, not just the activities, which is difficult, whether you're working by yourself and you've got only a certain amount of time in the day. At it holistically, at the the outcomes, not just the activities, which is difficult. I mean whether you're working by yourself and you've got kind of only a certain amount of time in the day, so your focus gets narrowed on one particular thing, or you're part of a big organization and this is your role and this is someone else's role. It can be. Even with the best intentions. It can be difficult to think about that higher level or higher outcome thinking without someone else being kind of in the mix to prompt you with the right questions or guide you in the right way exactly the book and the people that you help and the kind of first steps that they take.
\n\nAgain, the audience listening a bit of a mix of business owners and people responsible for their own book, but everyone's responsible for their own book in the sense of their own book, of business, not book. But everyone who's kind of raised their hand and is interested has been brought to the idea of writing a book as a lead generation tool. So they're all ultimately interested in more business, more sales. So the book's got 12 points in there. We were talking about some of the strategic reviews and some of the making sure that we pull the right levers. When you're talking with people maybe from stage or first meeting or that first introduction point you have to them what's the low hanging fruit or the first steps that people can take, as they're kind of thinking about I need to do something better in this world.
\n\nCraig: The first step is really a conversation or a reflection or a conversation with a group of trusted advisors to identify where we want to be a year from now, what are our goals a year from now, up to three years from now, and what are the challenges we're going to face in getting there. So I typically will talk to a business owner or a trusted advisor, even someone that is interested in publishing a book, and say what's your desired outcomes for that book, what are your top three initiatives, goals that you want to achieve, what are your challenges in getting there? The key, in my mind, is their ability to articulate where they're going, where they want to get to and the challenges they're going to face, and then from there you can get into a more extended conversation about needs, wants, challenges and, based on the business you're in and what your book is about, I highly recommend what I do is a sales operations audit. It could be an audit for anything, but it's designed to engage the prospective client and have them think about what they do, and I can tell you of the 32 questions that I asked about, 10% are getting answered complete.
\n\n90% is incomplete, and for two reasons. Number one I've never thought about that. No one has ever said that to me. We need to think about that or we've been thinking about it, we just haven't done anything yet, right yeah? So the reality the companies that I work with the authors, I work with, the financial advisors I work with they're already successful in their own right, so they're not broken, they don't need to be fixed, but rather there is a lot of opportunity for personal and professional growth there If you look at things globally and you look at it from a systematic perspective globally and you look at it from a systematic perspective.
\n\nStuart: Right, it's such a great point, isn't it? Particularly, it's different for people starting off the career and they're just starting because they don't have this kind of group of assets mental assets or actual assets to do something with. But anyone who's been in business for more than a year, you've experienced at least 80% of all of the experiences that you're going to have for the rest of your life. You're just going to see them in different ways. You kind of know what the answers are, the objections and the questions that come up. All of that within a year has been at least touched upon once.
\n\nSo there's some, some what's what I'm blanking on?
\n\nNot professionalism, but some execution techniques or speciality around how you can answer it and how comfortable you are with answering it and anticipating what comes next. Kind of, with the familiarity and experience, you kind of improve your game a little bit. But as far as the breadth goes and the opportunity to make those first conversations, those first outreaches, if you've been doing this for a year, it's not unknown, knowns, it's known, unknowns or whatever the analogy is. So having that opportunity to talk to someone or work with someone, or certainly will make sure that people can get a know where they can go to get a copy of the book as we wrap up in a minute. But it's not a knowledge gap, it's a execution gap. It's not an understanding gap, it a implementation gap. So I think that when people think about it in that way, it makes it a lot less daunting for people, because having that confidence that you know the stuff this is just about making it as efficient as possible. I think that makes it easy, an easier step for people to take.
\n\nCraig: They then just need to take the step I agree wholeheartedly, and I look at clients who have the attitude I'm a lifetime learner. I don't know everything and I need to surround myself with other smart people that I trust. I need to review what's going on in my business on a regular basis and I need to understand that systems should run my business and not individual people right because, it's all about putting systems in your business and hiring people who can execute and enhance the systems that are currently in place.
\n\nRight, that's what creates a winning team yeah, yeah.
\n\nStuart: It not only gives a an element of redundancy in case something happens that one individual you're not in a kind of like this key man situation where it all falls down, but also gives those individuals the opportunity to amplify what they do, because they might be the best person in the world at what their particular job, but they have to interact with other people. None of these roles are isolated completely. So at least then, having that system and framework in place, even if their piece is down and they're not going anywhere, how that interfaces with the other organizations, how they get the information in and then where it gets passed to, systematizing that it just streamlines the whole process absolutely, and if you're looking at career progression or you get concerned about somebody retiring, if you have the systems in place, then it's much easier for you to backfill that position, assuming that you're bringing somebody in with the right experience, skills and personality.
\n\nYeah, just makes it so much more the opportunity to think about it while you're not having the pressure of a critical situation you need to deal with. Being able to think about that structure beforehand it makes it. What's the triangle? You can have it cheap, fast or good, and you've got to pick two of the three. You can't have all three, so at least by Cheap fast or good two of the three you can't have all three, so at least by four.
\n\nCraig: Cheap press are good. Yeah, you can pick.
\n\nStuart: It's all a balancing act, right? Yeah, exactly so, at least having looked at the good element, the systematization element of it beforehand. At a moment where you need something fast, you're not having to sacrifice or let too many balls drop it at that critical moment. Time always goes fast on these podcasts it's it's like we enter a different time warp. It'd be really good to circle back a bit further down the track six, eight months out and then kind of allow people to consume some of the things that we've been talking about and then touch base again a little bit later in the summer and kind of give like the 202 level for people. But I want to make sure that they've. Anyone listening now has got the opportunity to learn more about what you do. Grab a copy of the book, for sure, and then kind of start working through these 12 elements to kind of refine some of their thinking around these things. So where's a good place for people to go, as they listen, to learn more about you? Get a copy of the book, see what the organization's about.
\n\nCraig: I believe there are two really viable options. Number one if what you heard today resonates with you, you can go to Amazon and pick up the book Smooth Selling Forever. It's available in Kindle as well as printed copy, either soft cover or hard cover. Or if you say sounds interesting, but I'd like to learn a little bit more, feel free to reach out to me directly. I'd be happy to have a conversation with you. You can email me at craig@smoothsellingforever.com and be happy to have a conversation with you.
\n\nStuart: That's perfect and we'll put a link directly through to those, both the Amazon listing and the email address and phone number. We'll put those in the show notes. So, whether people are listening on a podcast player or on the website, we'll have links directly through Craig. Like I say, time goes so fast on these calls. There's so much information to share with people. I think some of the takeaways that, or some of the elements that we've talked about today, even if people take that one takeaway as the seed and then can you just spend we're in the middle of may now. I think we're a couple of weeks ahead on on recording, so this will be the beginning of june probably when we go live. So that's heading into the perfect time.
\n\nThe summer is typically a time where there's a little bit of a downside. We're way past tax season for all the financial guys and summer's breaking up and vacation time. So I think this opportunity to assess the situation, start to think about a review of the operations that you've got in the processes, grab a copy of the book and go through the steps and then reach out to you directly with questions. This, coincidentally, this podcast, I think, is landing perfectly for all people as far as timing goes. So, yeah, just thanks again for being so open and sharing what you do, and it'd be great to circle back in a few months and give people the next installment be enjoyable.
\n\nCraig: I hope that your listening audience has some actual items that they can begin working on immediately, and I'd be honored if you were to ask me to come back again and speak on something more in depth or a specific topic.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, as people are listening and checking out the show notes. If you've got any questions for Craig, we can certainly address those in the next one, but the quickest route is absolutely reach out directly, so do that. But yeah, craig, we can certainly address those in the next one, but the quickest route is absolutely reach out directly, so so do that. But yeah, we can circle back and see what, see what has come from the audience and answer some questions. Okay, everyone, thanks for listening. Again, check out the show notes in the podcast players and on the website for Craig's contact details directly. Really recommend getting a copy of the book and, as I say, the summer is the perfect time to review the operations and really get those things dialed in. So thanks for listening and we will catch you all in the next one. Cheers.
","summary":"\r\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Craig Lowder from MainSpring Sales.\r\n\r\nCraig shares how his book _Smooth Selling Forever_ established his credibility and sparked meaningful conversations with many new leads.\r\n\r\nCraig explains how a book can do more than sell - it can strengthen relationships in today's digital market, and really set the stage for a trusted relationship. We explore shifting sales strategies, with Craig emphasizing adapting methods to virtual selling.\r\n\r\nFrom online presence to tracking indicators, his insights are actionable as he emphasizes the importance of audits and feedback loops in sales performance. \r\n","date_published":"2024-08-15T16:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/9c9c36a8-50d1-42f4-84fe-53a26695147f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":38217021,"duration_in_seconds":2388}]},{"id":"bccc6011-9e29-4dda-8501-5df4135ea0cf","title":"Ep170: Attracting High-Value Clients with Mark McIntosh","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/170","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nMaking genuine connections is critical to building your business, and today, we're talking with a master connector.\n\nI've known Mark McIntosh for about a year, and we finally got a chance to sit down and talk about leveraging LinkedIn for lead generation. \n\nHe runs an agency that helps business owners and professionals build their networks. He has helped people from all sorts of industries, including me! I've experienced his approach and the power of an orchestrated approach.\n\nWe discuss the benefits of building genuine connections by adding value and fostering trust and ways to position yourself as a thought leader without using spammy tactics. \n\nMark also shares practical strategies for warm connections, re-engaging people, and using mutual connections. These are all ideas he has detailed in his new book 'Attracting High-Value Clients', making it a valuable resource for anyone looking to enhance their networking skills.\n\nThis podcast is a great opportunity to delve into the world of network building and, of course, to understand your book's pivotal role in this value-driven approach.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nMark McIntosh and I discuss the importance of generating leads on LinkedIn by adding value and building trust rather than using spammy tactics.\nWe emphasize the significance of a multi-channel approach that includes LinkedIn, email outreach, and phone calls to maintain a consistent pipeline.\nMark shares insights on the effectiveness of warm and tepid introductions, re-engaging existing networks, and leveraging mutual connections for outreach.\nWe address the challenges businesses face with traditional growth methods like word-of-mouth and networking, and how a systematic approach can offer predictability and consistency.\nOur discussion highlights the transformation of LinkedIn profiles from passive resumes to active lead generation tools through compelling content strategies.\nMark elaborates on how businesses can position themselves as thought leaders by integrating books into their LinkedIn strategies, enhancing credibility and initiating meaningful conversations.\nWe explore the concept of attracting high-value clients rather than aggressively chasing them, and how books can be an effective tool in this strategy.\nWe touch on the importance of using a multi-channel approach, combining LinkedIn tactics with inbound and outbound strategies, referrals, and direct outreach for comprehensive client attraction.\nMark and I reflect on the collaborative nature of our services, emphasizing the benefits of working together to maintain consistent outreach while clients focus on their core strengths.\nWe conclude with a heartfelt conversation about the journey of our discussions, expressing gratitude for the insightful dialogue and support from the audience.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/170\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nMark McIntosh:\nWebsite: Revgrow | \nLinkedIn: Mark McIntosh\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\n\n \n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Mark McIntosh. Mark, how are you doing, buddy? Good? Good morning Stuart. How are you Good? Thank you, good to see you again. Yeah, you too. It's always interesting. The show is because half of the people I talk to I know and half the people I don't know. I was chatting with someone last week who I'd seen go through the process. It was a client who had been through the process but we'd never got a chance to speak, whereas you and I know each other more. So it gives just an interesting dynamic. I always feel like sometimes it's a bit more of a with new people, but with people I know you can kind of jump to the chase a little bit more, but with people I know can kind of jump to the chase a little bit more. So to get everyone else up to speed, why don't you start with a bit of an introduction about you and what the company does? \n\nMark: I'm Mark McIntosh and I'm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and we help our clients grow by filling their pipeline, keeping it consistently full throughout the year, and the way we do it is through a multi-channel approach that leverages LinkedIn, both outbound and inbound strategies, including content marketing. We also do email outreach and phone calls for our clients, and so, yeah, we're an outsourced lead generation agency and our primary method of doing this is through LinkedIn, and we also have discovered over the last year or two that leveraging email and a phone call in a multi-channel approach has been very effective. And another thing we do, which you know, stuart, is a lot of warm introductions and strategic introductions that you know somebody might not be open to a call from a cold outreach, so what we'll do is help them gain access to their prospects by leveraging mutual connections. So that's a strategy that we deploy that has worked really well. \n\nStuart: And that, I think, is one of the interesting approaches, because I mean, particularly in the last year, 50% of the emails in my inbox must be either people reaching out cold or agencies saying, hey, we can do it, can you take 10 more clients this month? Or we were working with someone in your area and we can fill leads for you. But what I mean I guess the connection that we had in the first place was a mutual connection through someone else, so that immediately warms up the relationship. But we've been working together for a number of months now and the this is a little bit anecdotal, but I think the most effective element of everything that we've been doing is that warm connection, and I think not only warm in the sense of not introducing to a very close friend or contact, but just warm where there's some kind of connection. There already there's some kind of anchor to hang it on. \n\nIt's not completely cold, so that is that we see with other clients as well, that kind of mix between, if I think about very warm it's someone who I know personally and genuinely know, for want of a better term and then there's kind of like a tepid introduction which is there's some connection there, and then there's just of like a tepid introduction which is there's some connection there, and then there's just the cold outreach stuff. So do you find that with other clients as well, that the warm, slash, tepid stuff is more effective? Yeah. \n\nMark: Yeah. So for example, during the first few months of a campaign for our clients, we like to look at their existing network and help them re-engage with those folks who might be good referral partners for them or prospects. And most of our clients they've connected with people, they've done a good job building their network but they've just lost touch or they've gotten busy. So for many of our clients there's a ton of gold in their existing network. So when we re-engage with those folks it's a warmer outreach because there's presumably some of that no like and trust and at least some familiarity because they're already existing connections, existing connections. And then to your point, when we make strategic introductions, or if our clients get with referral buddies and they make introductions to people they're connected to, that might be your second degree. Again, it's that familiarity and that just a warmer familiarity and that just a warmer, softer approach than just getting a cold message where they might not know you from Adam. \n\nSo for most of our clients the results from those two strategies is very, very positive. Now, the degree at which you know the volume of warm introductions and the volume of folks that we can re-engage with. There's a lot of factors that might influence that the size of their existing network and how well they've done building their network over the years. But those two strategies far and away have been our most effective across the board. \n\nStuart: I think that's a great point as well. It's almost the if you could sit and have that perfect, that perfect setup to engaging with people, if you knew you had all the time in the world to engage, versus the actual time that you've gotten, the effort that you've got to do it on your own, on your own behalf, working with someone else or having someone else taking on that responsibility to do some of the I don't even necessarily want to call it legwork, but the the work that you would do if you didn't have any other constraints. I think a lot of people are in the position where they would like to do this anyway, it's just they don't have time. I really resonate with that bit of forgetting about it. \n\nMark: That is the reason we exist, stuart. So a lot of our clients they're small businesses, entrepreneurs, ceo, founder that's wearing many hats and they're not quite big enough often to have an in-house marketing team or a sales team or a group of lead generation specialists and they want to spend time in their superpower doing what they love to do and what they do best. So for most of our clients, they may do the lead generation and the prospecting and the LinkedIn activities sporadically or just maybe for a couple of weeks, and then they get busy something else. So the done for you aspect, you know whether you outsource it to someone or you delegate it to someone. \n\nThat is why we exist, because our clients are bright. They can do a lot of what we do. They just won't because it's not their cup of tea, they don't like to do it. Maybe they haven't taken the time to understand all the nuances and the strategies, and so that's where we come in. We'll do it for them and you know that's our crowd is really the done for you crowd versus the do it yourself, and it really comes down to time and energy and them wanting to focus on what they do best and more strategic matters and serving their existing clients that's actually such a sweet spot with the people who we work with too. \n\nStuart: It's again it's not rocket science what we do, but the likelihood of someone doing it by themselves is so slim. It's being able to do it for them and someone adding their unique ability and their ideas and the stuff that is key to what they do, but us being able to take the heavy lift of the rest of it. Similar to the way that you guys work For you guys. Is there any particular group of people who you work best with? \n\nMark: Any particular types of clients. All of our clients are in the B2B business to business, and often they're selling a service or a solution. So they might be selling books. They're done for books, like you guys are done for podcasting or a lot of consulting firms will hire us, other marketing agencies hire us accounting staffing, a lot of technology solutions, and so, yeah, it's all B2B. Our clients they're usually smaller, like I mentioned before, where you know, maybe they're you know, a couple hundred thousand a year up to about five or seven million a year and they just need the expertise and the resources to do it for them and we're a cost effective solution for that. \n\nClients all over the nation and in fact we have one in South America I'm talking to a guy from Europe tomorrow, so really no boundaries geographically, but they're across the board. They're really good at what they do. They're excellent. Once they get in front of people, they just need more at they do they're excellent once they get in front of people, they just need more at-bats. And they have historically gotten most of their business through word of mouth, networking, referrals, but it's just not enough. So maybe that gets them to 80% of their goal. Maybe that gets them to 80% of their goal. But those methods are unpredictable and often insufficient. So how do they bridge that delta? How did they get to their ultimate growth goal? And it's by hiring us and getting more of a systematic, consistent, more intentional approach in place so they never have to worry about their pipeline or where that next client will be. So really adding consistency, predictability and intentionality and doing it consistently. \n\nStuart: And again, it's just a peace of mind and we're doing that on their behalf why they're focused on moving their business forward like you say, it's that real balance of being able to focus on the stuff that you do well and the stuff that you would like to do, if you remember to do it, allowing someone else to do that in a kind of collaborative approach, because I think it's so much more beneficial, having worked as I say now for approach, because I think it's so much more beneficial, having worked, as I say now, for a good couple of months it's so much more beneficial than just kind of the traditional idea of outsourcing that you think about, where the whole task and responsibility is shifted somewhere else, to be able to work collaboratively with one of the guys on the team. So that it is your message. It's literally the having a partner to bounce ideas off and strategize with, but then someone delivering your words in the way that you would deliver them if you trust them. So there's no kind of like separation. There's no kind of generic stuff, it's no kind of AI farm stuff just going out. It really is your message. \n\nIf you could, you mentioned this. We were talking about the strategies and, depending on how big your audience was to begin with, it would be. There's a couple of different options If someone really hasn't thought to use LinkedIn in the past or any LinkedIn works that they've done really has just been reactive and maybe just accepting some responses rather than orchestrating it. Is that still an option for people, or do they have to have done something already? Can you take people who are almost starting from scratch? \n\nMark: We, you know, ideally they would have had, you know, at least their first 500 connections on LinkedIn and have seen some success. So we don't have to convince them that, hey, linkedin is a goldmine. But we can certainly. I just worked with a friend of mine last week and he was virtually starting from scratch. So a lot of what we did during the first month was get his connections of targeted prospects and influencers and customers and vendors and existing connections, get that up to that 500 plus mark on LinkedIn. And so, yeah, we started from scratch. \n\nHe had a very basic, simple LinkedIn profile. That was really it wasn't compelling. That was really it wasn't compelling. It was just very basic, more like a resume. So we completely revamped everything his profile to really make it pop and shine, you know, clear, concise, compelling, client-centric and also complete. So, yeah, we work with people that are just getting started, all the way up to those that have. Some of our clients have 20,000 connections and they've done a pretty good job over the years building their network and their connections, but they've never actually engaged in a manner to monetize orchestration network right? \n\nStuart: yes, yeah, that idea of people using it as a resume. I've been around long enough to remember when linkedin launched and was using it in a resume. I've been around long enough to remember when linkedin launched and was using it in a corporate career and it was exactly that there was very little content around, it was all work-based experience and using it for the next role clients are you working with. Have they kind of switched now a lot to more of the? It's a content creation platform and an opportunity for lead generation, so you'd have to do less of that convincing that people should put more effort into it, or a lot of people who have that first interaction. We're still thinking of it as a resume platform yeah, that's a great question. \n\nMark: Every client is different. So some of our clients they understand marketing and most of them do they understand the importance of content. They understand marketing and most of them do they understand the importance of content. They understand the importance of prospecting and keeping their pipeline full and they understand because they've done websites for their company etc the importance of having a customer-centric resource and sharing value with their network. So majority of our clients get that and they've seen success, but they're just not doing it consistently. Or maybe they're doing it but they really don't know the best methods and they haven't put much strategy into the types of content they're posting and the frequency of content and how to lay out a piece of content with keywords and hashtags and things like that. So most of our clients I don't need to convince them that LinkedIn is a gold mine and all of their prospects have a presence on LinkedIn- Actively there. \n\nStuart: It's such an interesting space because it's so professional, in the sense of it's not like the other social media platforms that the hyperbole and the vitriol and the combative nature is, and it's such a supportive environment. It's so friendly. And then people are there for the purpose of developing professional networks, whether it's careers or business. But it's such a nicer place to be and I think that adding in the technical details or the tactical details and then helping people with the strategy is really quite a big difference in what you guys provide, the. You talk about the couple of stages of it. So one is the profile, making sure that the profile is aligned with the outcome that you want, and then another piece around outreach and another piece around content, kind of like the engagement. \n\nI'm going to kind of bridge it into books a little bit and then talk about your book as well. We're using our book in our funnel as an outreach piece. So this idea of making a connection and then delivering something of value, we're using the book, obviously the scorecard book that I wrote, because it's such an easy introduction to the conversation and it's relevant to what we do. Do many people use that first step of delivering value? Are many of the existing clients using books, or are they using other pieces of content that they've got around? \n\nMark: Great Our approach and the best way to leverage LinkedIn is not the pitch slap or the connect and pitch. \n\nIt's all about adding value which creates that know, like and trust and also positions you as the thought leader out there in your space, but also as one of the good guys. So we're all getting spammed and pitch slapped every single day and it's not good. So our clients will always have something of value. It may be a book, it may be a podcast, it may be a blog post, an article, a poll, research, white paper, something, and we always encourage our clients more or less give your best stuff away. You know whether that's a book or a free chapter of a book, or you know a compelling case study or a white paper or something. But your audience, they care about what's in it for them and if you can educate them and share a point of view that resonates with them, pique that interest and that curiosity, and then also, by laying out these value bombs throughout the relationship, it really helps set you apart from the crowd and the people that aren't going about it in a value, trust-based approach. \n\nStuart: Right, it's such a difference. I mean, even I see it not so much on LinkedIn or on email, maybe, but people just leading straight away with something that they obviously want, even if they're couching it slightly in terms of providing value. But it's very rare that people are just delivering something of use. There's always that pretty obvious veil of value, but then asking straight away. So to have that strategy where there is a little bit more of a relationship building, knowing that there's a few touch points in it, rather than just going straight for the, straight for the oh, here's how I can provide value. It's much more. It starts the relationship off in a much easier and better way, which I guess actually brings us to your book. \n\nSo the idea that you were writing about the, the, the attracting people, the attracting people, the attracting high value clients that word attracting, it's very kind of magnetic and drawing towards rather than chasing or hunting down or trapping high value clients what was the thinking behind? What was the thinking behind bringing things together in this particular way? Obviously, you know the subject. You've got a lot of things that you could talk about. What was the thinking behind picking these particular elements to include in the book? \n\nMark: Yeah, I mean attracting high value clients. One of my guys I know he calls them right fit clients, high value clients. That's the goal. So we're all looking to find those clients that we know are a good fit for us and vice versa. So, by using the word attracting, that encompasses a lot of different ways to do that Inbound, outbound, referrals, warm introductions, email follow-ups, phone calls, LinkedIn strategies. \n\nSo I've always wanted to write a book. I just it was too overwhelming to even think about the process, and so, connecting with you as we got introduced by David, it was a godsend because I didn't realize it could be this easy to do and it was just such a relief to know that you guys had the process and the value and the pricing options and things that just made it much more easier and more efficient and smoother than I ever thought was possible. And that's like. I don't know if that answered your question about attracting high value clients, but a book is a great way and we do that on LinkedIn, where we position our clients as a thought leader, as an expert in their space, and that's a great way to attract high value clients. And a book I can't think of a better way than a book to really elevate yourself as a thought leader in the space. And what a great way to share everything we've learned along our journey and the valuable insights, and to do it in a friendly, useful manner than your books that you did. \n\nStuart: So that's why I was saying to someone yesterday this idea that anyone who's been in business for more than a year, you've got all of the knowledge in your head and the experience and your particular way of doing it to really add that value and attract the audience and lead with a given hand and start the conversation in a meaningful way rather than just go in. I love the term pitch, slap. It's so. It just happens far too often. There's so much more of a meaningful way that just gets your ideas out there and whether or not, I think people get hung up on the idea that they need to write a bestseller or a completely unique idea or it needs to be competing on Amazon's shelves against the kind of brightest and the best, but for most of us that's not, in fact, almost all of us. That's not where we're using it. We're using it to try and engage one person in a conversation. \n\nThat kind of leads to a next step, the process that you were talking about making it as easy and straightforward as possible. That's what I like about your guys service as well is I know what I would want to do if I had the belief that I would actually remember to do it consistently, but I'm not going to do it so to be able to, we help extract people's knowledge and get it into a book and you guys help extract people's knowledge and get it into a consistent linkedin strategy and those two things. There's such a synergy between the two the idea of writing the book and bringing it together, of starting the conversation with the people who you want to start the conversation with. I often ask people because this idea of kind of like beneficial constraints we've been in business long enough that we could write books and books and books worth of stuff. We've got that much knowledge in our heads. Was it an easy decision to what to include and what to leave for a later conversation? \n\nMark: For me it was easy because I had done e-books in the past. I've done a lot of presentations, so the framework or the outline of what I wanted to share and expand upon in a book format. That was easy because I had already configured that over the last several years. The fact that you and I you know one I didn't have the awareness of your solution and there were companies like yours that I mean just offer exactly what I needed for my purpose and my budget and my timeline. It was just a perfect fit. \n\nStuart: So I was scrolling through Instagram over the last week or two. \n\nI must have clicked on a couple of the competitors and because I've clicked on a couple of things, then obviously the feed is just full of similar stuff. \n\nSo the number of we've been around now for 10 years. \n\nSo the number of competitors now are a lot more of time and the budget is so much more aligned with this idea of a campaign conversation starting book compared with, I think, a number of other people come to the project from a publishing world and everything is then just elevated to a level that's that's much higher than is is really what's fit for purpose in in this context. \n\nSo that's why I like the ability to kind of marry up the person's intent, the amount of time they've got, the use case and everything that kind of makes it an effective way of starting the conversation, either on LinkedIn or through email or through referrals. And again, that's why the two services align so well. So you've got the book now created, you've got all of the LinkedIn strategy and the ways that you guys work across the board. What thoughts have you got around how to use the book tied in with your own LinkedIn strategy, kind of trying to x-ray spec or shortcut for people listening in what you, as a LinkedIn expert, would do if you had a book. So, therefore, what they could do now that they've got a book. \n\nMark: Yeah, for one. A link to the book is on my profile so it's instant credibility. And I talked to a guy yesterday, before our call, he had already went out and purchased the book, so it just really made a big difference on that initial call. So that's one way we use it. Another way we use it as you know, each chapter and each there's several posts that we can create on LinkedIn, leveraging the content and repurposing the content that's already in the book. So that's been another way we've used it. \n\nI'm currently in the process of updating our website where somebody can opt in to receive a copy of our book, the electronic version, and you know it's a freebie. \n\nIt's a huge value add and just by reading the book they're going to have everything that we do for our clients and be able to grow their business if they're willing to take the time to implement some of the strategies laid out in the book laid out in the book. \n\nSo having it as a lead magnet or a useful resource that they can acquire just by visiting our website is another way that we're using it. And then if somebody gets referred in and I want to send them a copy of the book, either electronically or a hard copy copy of the book, either electronically or a hard copy. That's another way that we'll use the book. And then the final way well, there's a couple others, but one to get on podcast, to get speaking gigs. Another one would be for our referral partners and as a value add or a gift for them all partners and as a value add or a gift for them. So there's a ton of ideas that we plan to utilize and get an ROI from this book, which may be the first book of many, because I've enjoyed this process so much. \n\nStuart: That's what I'd love about working with guys like you who have kind of the framework or the structure or the idea of how to use it is there and you can see the roadmap ahead. So it's always one of the more disheartening things is when you kind of check back in with people a year later and they've kind of finished the project but it's kind of fallen by the wayside and I haven't actually got around to using it that much. Much nicer like, creating the book is kind of like the first step. It's the it's. It's setting up the profile, the linkedin profile. It's the it's a foundational first step, but it's only the first step. It's the fact that it exists isn't going to do that much, but getting out there and using it. I really like the idea and again talk to people about this a lot. \n\nThe idea of the book now becomes the tentpole around which other content is created and refers back. So they're creating posts that refer to content that's in the book. Then when people see the book they're not hearing it for the first time. It's reinforcing and building on the message that you've kind of putting out there across many different ways and the fact that people are joining calls, discovery calls or initial calls with you and they've had some exposure to the book already. Again, the things that you're saying, they're not hearing it for the first time. What you're saying is reinforcing things that they've already read. They just read it in your book. So the synergies that can come from it, the kind of multi-channel uses of having done the work to create it yeah, it really does build this kind of army of assets out there that you can just get in front of the people at the right time and move them to the next step bring awareness, you know, to draw interest, to help reinforce your solution, to help seal the deal and ultimately win the client. \n\nMark: So it's throughout the funnel and there's a multitude of ways we can leverage the book. And another idea is for referral partners or people that also serve your ideal customer. I'll send them two or three books that they can give out to people, and they're the hero in that situation. What a great way for them to add value for their clients is to give them somebody else's book. Now, that's another way we're using that as well. \n\nStuart: That's a psychology of why people refer, the idea that people refer because they're happy to there's the baseline of them being happy to refer, but there's also this element of social capital within the group of of them wanting to refer something because it gives them a higher status in the nicest possible sense, but for a non-competing business. So CPA or accountants that works with other B2B clients, to be able to hear them talking about excuse me, hear them talking about someone having a LinkedIn challenge and they say, oh, that's okay, I've got you covered, I know the guy. And then here let me give you a copy of the book and kind of present it across. \n\nMark: yeah, such a fantastic idea since them as a a good guy and a thought later and a problem solver. So they're not just looking after their best interest, that they recognize the prospect is having challenges in other areas. You know what a great way for that cpa to stand out from the crowd and position themselves as a true, trusted advisor, as opposed to somebody that's trying to just sell them on their cpa services. So that's a great point. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that collaborative kind of approach to the greater good, because they've got no skin in the game. They're offering the LinkedIn book to one of their CPA clients purely as a greater good type option to improving their service and, as you say say, being that trusted partner. It's that's why I get excited and passionate about it. The more people kind of get this created into something that can be out there in the world making a difference, the more likelihood it is that it will make a difference to someone, and those differences only need to be small. But the world is a better place for having them out there than than not. \n\nTime always goes fast on these shows. I really appreciate it. It'd be great to circle back in a couple of months actually and give people an update and then maybe talk about some more strategies. But in the meantime I want to make sure that people can get access to you and and what rev grow do. So where's a good place for people to head over to if they want to learn more about kind of utilizing and making the most of LinkedIn for themselves? Yeah, great question. \n\nMark: Appreciate that. Yeah, just visit my LinkedIn profile. So just type in Mark McIntosh, revgrow. That's one way. Another way is to email me at Mark@RevGrow.com, or they can visit our website, which is RevGrow.com. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. As always, I'll make sure I put links in the show notes so, whether people are listening on a podcast player or they've gone to the website, there'll be links directly through there so that people can see what's going on. And on LinkedIn, I mean the connections that you make with people. Everyone listening to this show is kind of loosely connected in our world. So even making a connection there, this whole kind of referral opportunity of connecting like-minded people and being the go-to person for someone else, it's expanding that network. You never know where that goes down the track. And and of course, there's a copy of the book available there as well. So people should definitely follow, follow the links and grab that copy because, as you said before, even if people just read it and try and implement some of the things themselves, there's still a lot of gems in there to to make improvements until the point that they're ready to to get a partner to do it with them. \n\nMark: For sure. \n\nStuart: it's been a pleasure. Buddy, it's as I say, it always goes too fast. It'd be really good to circle back in a in a little while and see how things are going, but in the meantime I just want to say thanks again for your time and everyone, Thanks for tuning in and then we'll catch you all in the next one. Thanks, Stuart, and thank you. ","content_html":"\n\n
Making genuine connections is critical to building your business, and today, we're talking with a master connector.
\n\nI've known Mark McIntosh for about a year, and we finally got a chance to sit down and talk about leveraging LinkedIn for lead generation.
\n\nHe runs an agency that helps business owners and professionals build their networks. He has helped people from all sorts of industries, including me! I've experienced his approach and the power of an orchestrated approach.
\n\nWe discuss the benefits of building genuine connections by adding value and fostering trust and ways to position yourself as a thought leader without using spammy tactics.
\n\nMark also shares practical strategies for warm connections, re-engaging people, and using mutual connections. These are all ideas he has detailed in his new book 'Attracting High-Value Clients', making it a valuable resource for anyone looking to enhance their networking skills.
\n\nThis podcast is a great opportunity to delve into the world of network building and, of course, to understand your book's pivotal role in this value-driven approach.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/170
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
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Mark McIntosh:
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nMark: I'm Mark McIntosh and I'm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and we help our clients grow by filling their pipeline, keeping it consistently full throughout the year, and the way we do it is through a multi-channel approach that leverages LinkedIn, both outbound and inbound strategies, including content marketing. We also do email outreach and phone calls for our clients, and so, yeah, we're an outsourced lead generation agency and our primary method of doing this is through LinkedIn, and we also have discovered over the last year or two that leveraging email and a phone call in a multi-channel approach has been very effective. And another thing we do, which you know, stuart, is a lot of warm introductions and strategic introductions that you know somebody might not be open to a call from a cold outreach, so what we'll do is help them gain access to their prospects by leveraging mutual connections. So that's a strategy that we deploy that has worked really well.
\n\nStuart: And that, I think, is one of the interesting approaches, because I mean, particularly in the last year, 50% of the emails in my inbox must be either people reaching out cold or agencies saying, hey, we can do it, can you take 10 more clients this month? Or we were working with someone in your area and we can fill leads for you. But what I mean I guess the connection that we had in the first place was a mutual connection through someone else, so that immediately warms up the relationship. But we've been working together for a number of months now and the this is a little bit anecdotal, but I think the most effective element of everything that we've been doing is that warm connection, and I think not only warm in the sense of not introducing to a very close friend or contact, but just warm where there's some kind of connection. There already there's some kind of anchor to hang it on.
\n\nIt's not completely cold, so that is that we see with other clients as well, that kind of mix between, if I think about very warm it's someone who I know personally and genuinely know, for want of a better term and then there's kind of like a tepid introduction which is there's some connection there, and then there's just of like a tepid introduction which is there's some connection there, and then there's just the cold outreach stuff. So do you find that with other clients as well, that the warm, slash, tepid stuff is more effective? Yeah.
\n\nMark: Yeah. So for example, during the first few months of a campaign for our clients, we like to look at their existing network and help them re-engage with those folks who might be good referral partners for them or prospects. And most of our clients they've connected with people, they've done a good job building their network but they've just lost touch or they've gotten busy. So for many of our clients there's a ton of gold in their existing network. So when we re-engage with those folks it's a warmer outreach because there's presumably some of that no like and trust and at least some familiarity because they're already existing connections, existing connections. And then to your point, when we make strategic introductions, or if our clients get with referral buddies and they make introductions to people they're connected to, that might be your second degree. Again, it's that familiarity and that just a warmer familiarity and that just a warmer, softer approach than just getting a cold message where they might not know you from Adam.
\n\nSo for most of our clients the results from those two strategies is very, very positive. Now, the degree at which you know the volume of warm introductions and the volume of folks that we can re-engage with. There's a lot of factors that might influence that the size of their existing network and how well they've done building their network over the years. But those two strategies far and away have been our most effective across the board.
\n\nStuart: I think that's a great point as well. It's almost the if you could sit and have that perfect, that perfect setup to engaging with people, if you knew you had all the time in the world to engage, versus the actual time that you've gotten, the effort that you've got to do it on your own, on your own behalf, working with someone else or having someone else taking on that responsibility to do some of the I don't even necessarily want to call it legwork, but the the work that you would do if you didn't have any other constraints. I think a lot of people are in the position where they would like to do this anyway, it's just they don't have time. I really resonate with that bit of forgetting about it.
\n\nMark: That is the reason we exist, stuart. So a lot of our clients they're small businesses, entrepreneurs, ceo, founder that's wearing many hats and they're not quite big enough often to have an in-house marketing team or a sales team or a group of lead generation specialists and they want to spend time in their superpower doing what they love to do and what they do best. So for most of our clients, they may do the lead generation and the prospecting and the LinkedIn activities sporadically or just maybe for a couple of weeks, and then they get busy something else. So the done for you aspect, you know whether you outsource it to someone or you delegate it to someone.
\n\nThat is why we exist, because our clients are bright. They can do a lot of what we do. They just won't because it's not their cup of tea, they don't like to do it. Maybe they haven't taken the time to understand all the nuances and the strategies, and so that's where we come in. We'll do it for them and you know that's our crowd is really the done for you crowd versus the do it yourself, and it really comes down to time and energy and them wanting to focus on what they do best and more strategic matters and serving their existing clients that's actually such a sweet spot with the people who we work with too.
\n\nStuart: It's again it's not rocket science what we do, but the likelihood of someone doing it by themselves is so slim. It's being able to do it for them and someone adding their unique ability and their ideas and the stuff that is key to what they do, but us being able to take the heavy lift of the rest of it. Similar to the way that you guys work For you guys. Is there any particular group of people who you work best with?
\n\nMark: Any particular types of clients. All of our clients are in the B2B business to business, and often they're selling a service or a solution. So they might be selling books. They're done for books, like you guys are done for podcasting or a lot of consulting firms will hire us, other marketing agencies hire us accounting staffing, a lot of technology solutions, and so, yeah, it's all B2B. Our clients they're usually smaller, like I mentioned before, where you know, maybe they're you know, a couple hundred thousand a year up to about five or seven million a year and they just need the expertise and the resources to do it for them and we're a cost effective solution for that.
\n\nClients all over the nation and in fact we have one in South America I'm talking to a guy from Europe tomorrow, so really no boundaries geographically, but they're across the board. They're really good at what they do. They're excellent. Once they get in front of people, they just need more at they do they're excellent once they get in front of people, they just need more at-bats. And they have historically gotten most of their business through word of mouth, networking, referrals, but it's just not enough. So maybe that gets them to 80% of their goal. Maybe that gets them to 80% of their goal. But those methods are unpredictable and often insufficient. So how do they bridge that delta? How did they get to their ultimate growth goal? And it's by hiring us and getting more of a systematic, consistent, more intentional approach in place so they never have to worry about their pipeline or where that next client will be. So really adding consistency, predictability and intentionality and doing it consistently.
\n\nStuart: And again, it's just a peace of mind and we're doing that on their behalf why they're focused on moving their business forward like you say, it's that real balance of being able to focus on the stuff that you do well and the stuff that you would like to do, if you remember to do it, allowing someone else to do that in a kind of collaborative approach, because I think it's so much more beneficial, having worked as I say now for approach, because I think it's so much more beneficial, having worked, as I say now, for a good couple of months it's so much more beneficial than just kind of the traditional idea of outsourcing that you think about, where the whole task and responsibility is shifted somewhere else, to be able to work collaboratively with one of the guys on the team. So that it is your message. It's literally the having a partner to bounce ideas off and strategize with, but then someone delivering your words in the way that you would deliver them if you trust them. So there's no kind of like separation. There's no kind of generic stuff, it's no kind of AI farm stuff just going out. It really is your message.
\n\nIf you could, you mentioned this. We were talking about the strategies and, depending on how big your audience was to begin with, it would be. There's a couple of different options If someone really hasn't thought to use LinkedIn in the past or any LinkedIn works that they've done really has just been reactive and maybe just accepting some responses rather than orchestrating it. Is that still an option for people, or do they have to have done something already? Can you take people who are almost starting from scratch?
\n\nMark: We, you know, ideally they would have had, you know, at least their first 500 connections on LinkedIn and have seen some success. So we don't have to convince them that, hey, linkedin is a goldmine. But we can certainly. I just worked with a friend of mine last week and he was virtually starting from scratch. So a lot of what we did during the first month was get his connections of targeted prospects and influencers and customers and vendors and existing connections, get that up to that 500 plus mark on LinkedIn. And so, yeah, we started from scratch.
\n\nHe had a very basic, simple LinkedIn profile. That was really it wasn't compelling. That was really it wasn't compelling. It was just very basic, more like a resume. So we completely revamped everything his profile to really make it pop and shine, you know, clear, concise, compelling, client-centric and also complete. So, yeah, we work with people that are just getting started, all the way up to those that have. Some of our clients have 20,000 connections and they've done a pretty good job over the years building their network and their connections, but they've never actually engaged in a manner to monetize orchestration network right?
\n\nStuart: yes, yeah, that idea of people using it as a resume. I've been around long enough to remember when linkedin launched and was using it in a resume. I've been around long enough to remember when linkedin launched and was using it in a corporate career and it was exactly that there was very little content around, it was all work-based experience and using it for the next role clients are you working with. Have they kind of switched now a lot to more of the? It's a content creation platform and an opportunity for lead generation, so you'd have to do less of that convincing that people should put more effort into it, or a lot of people who have that first interaction. We're still thinking of it as a resume platform yeah, that's a great question.
\n\nMark: Every client is different. So some of our clients they understand marketing and most of them do they understand the importance of content. They understand marketing and most of them do they understand the importance of content. They understand the importance of prospecting and keeping their pipeline full and they understand because they've done websites for their company etc the importance of having a customer-centric resource and sharing value with their network. So majority of our clients get that and they've seen success, but they're just not doing it consistently. Or maybe they're doing it but they really don't know the best methods and they haven't put much strategy into the types of content they're posting and the frequency of content and how to lay out a piece of content with keywords and hashtags and things like that. So most of our clients I don't need to convince them that LinkedIn is a gold mine and all of their prospects have a presence on LinkedIn- Actively there.
\n\nStuart: It's such an interesting space because it's so professional, in the sense of it's not like the other social media platforms that the hyperbole and the vitriol and the combative nature is, and it's such a supportive environment. It's so friendly. And then people are there for the purpose of developing professional networks, whether it's careers or business. But it's such a nicer place to be and I think that adding in the technical details or the tactical details and then helping people with the strategy is really quite a big difference in what you guys provide, the. You talk about the couple of stages of it. So one is the profile, making sure that the profile is aligned with the outcome that you want, and then another piece around outreach and another piece around content, kind of like the engagement.
\n\nI'm going to kind of bridge it into books a little bit and then talk about your book as well. We're using our book in our funnel as an outreach piece. So this idea of making a connection and then delivering something of value, we're using the book, obviously the scorecard book that I wrote, because it's such an easy introduction to the conversation and it's relevant to what we do. Do many people use that first step of delivering value? Are many of the existing clients using books, or are they using other pieces of content that they've got around?
\n\nMark: Great Our approach and the best way to leverage LinkedIn is not the pitch slap or the connect and pitch.
\n\nIt's all about adding value which creates that know, like and trust and also positions you as the thought leader out there in your space, but also as one of the good guys. So we're all getting spammed and pitch slapped every single day and it's not good. So our clients will always have something of value. It may be a book, it may be a podcast, it may be a blog post, an article, a poll, research, white paper, something, and we always encourage our clients more or less give your best stuff away. You know whether that's a book or a free chapter of a book, or you know a compelling case study or a white paper or something. But your audience, they care about what's in it for them and if you can educate them and share a point of view that resonates with them, pique that interest and that curiosity, and then also, by laying out these value bombs throughout the relationship, it really helps set you apart from the crowd and the people that aren't going about it in a value, trust-based approach.
\n\nStuart: Right, it's such a difference. I mean, even I see it not so much on LinkedIn or on email, maybe, but people just leading straight away with something that they obviously want, even if they're couching it slightly in terms of providing value. But it's very rare that people are just delivering something of use. There's always that pretty obvious veil of value, but then asking straight away. So to have that strategy where there is a little bit more of a relationship building, knowing that there's a few touch points in it, rather than just going straight for the, straight for the oh, here's how I can provide value. It's much more. It starts the relationship off in a much easier and better way, which I guess actually brings us to your book.
\n\nSo the idea that you were writing about the, the, the attracting people, the attracting people, the attracting high value clients that word attracting, it's very kind of magnetic and drawing towards rather than chasing or hunting down or trapping high value clients what was the thinking behind? What was the thinking behind bringing things together in this particular way? Obviously, you know the subject. You've got a lot of things that you could talk about. What was the thinking behind picking these particular elements to include in the book?
\n\nMark: Yeah, I mean attracting high value clients. One of my guys I know he calls them right fit clients, high value clients. That's the goal. So we're all looking to find those clients that we know are a good fit for us and vice versa. So, by using the word attracting, that encompasses a lot of different ways to do that Inbound, outbound, referrals, warm introductions, email follow-ups, phone calls, LinkedIn strategies.
\n\nSo I've always wanted to write a book. I just it was too overwhelming to even think about the process, and so, connecting with you as we got introduced by David, it was a godsend because I didn't realize it could be this easy to do and it was just such a relief to know that you guys had the process and the value and the pricing options and things that just made it much more easier and more efficient and smoother than I ever thought was possible. And that's like. I don't know if that answered your question about attracting high value clients, but a book is a great way and we do that on LinkedIn, where we position our clients as a thought leader, as an expert in their space, and that's a great way to attract high value clients. And a book I can't think of a better way than a book to really elevate yourself as a thought leader in the space. And what a great way to share everything we've learned along our journey and the valuable insights, and to do it in a friendly, useful manner than your books that you did.
\n\nStuart: So that's why I was saying to someone yesterday this idea that anyone who's been in business for more than a year, you've got all of the knowledge in your head and the experience and your particular way of doing it to really add that value and attract the audience and lead with a given hand and start the conversation in a meaningful way rather than just go in. I love the term pitch, slap. It's so. It just happens far too often. There's so much more of a meaningful way that just gets your ideas out there and whether or not, I think people get hung up on the idea that they need to write a bestseller or a completely unique idea or it needs to be competing on Amazon's shelves against the kind of brightest and the best, but for most of us that's not, in fact, almost all of us. That's not where we're using it. We're using it to try and engage one person in a conversation.
\n\nThat kind of leads to a next step, the process that you were talking about making it as easy and straightforward as possible. That's what I like about your guys service as well is I know what I would want to do if I had the belief that I would actually remember to do it consistently, but I'm not going to do it so to be able to, we help extract people's knowledge and get it into a book and you guys help extract people's knowledge and get it into a consistent linkedin strategy and those two things. There's such a synergy between the two the idea of writing the book and bringing it together, of starting the conversation with the people who you want to start the conversation with. I often ask people because this idea of kind of like beneficial constraints we've been in business long enough that we could write books and books and books worth of stuff. We've got that much knowledge in our heads. Was it an easy decision to what to include and what to leave for a later conversation?
\n\nMark: For me it was easy because I had done e-books in the past. I've done a lot of presentations, so the framework or the outline of what I wanted to share and expand upon in a book format. That was easy because I had already configured that over the last several years. The fact that you and I you know one I didn't have the awareness of your solution and there were companies like yours that I mean just offer exactly what I needed for my purpose and my budget and my timeline. It was just a perfect fit.
\n\nStuart: So I was scrolling through Instagram over the last week or two.
\n\nI must have clicked on a couple of the competitors and because I've clicked on a couple of things, then obviously the feed is just full of similar stuff.
\n\nSo the number of we've been around now for 10 years.
\n\nSo the number of competitors now are a lot more of time and the budget is so much more aligned with this idea of a campaign conversation starting book compared with, I think, a number of other people come to the project from a publishing world and everything is then just elevated to a level that's that's much higher than is is really what's fit for purpose in in this context.
\n\nSo that's why I like the ability to kind of marry up the person's intent, the amount of time they've got, the use case and everything that kind of makes it an effective way of starting the conversation, either on LinkedIn or through email or through referrals. And again, that's why the two services align so well. So you've got the book now created, you've got all of the LinkedIn strategy and the ways that you guys work across the board. What thoughts have you got around how to use the book tied in with your own LinkedIn strategy, kind of trying to x-ray spec or shortcut for people listening in what you, as a LinkedIn expert, would do if you had a book. So, therefore, what they could do now that they've got a book.
\n\nMark: Yeah, for one. A link to the book is on my profile so it's instant credibility. And I talked to a guy yesterday, before our call, he had already went out and purchased the book, so it just really made a big difference on that initial call. So that's one way we use it. Another way we use it as you know, each chapter and each there's several posts that we can create on LinkedIn, leveraging the content and repurposing the content that's already in the book. So that's been another way we've used it.
\n\nI'm currently in the process of updating our website where somebody can opt in to receive a copy of our book, the electronic version, and you know it's a freebie.
\n\nIt's a huge value add and just by reading the book they're going to have everything that we do for our clients and be able to grow their business if they're willing to take the time to implement some of the strategies laid out in the book laid out in the book.
\n\nSo having it as a lead magnet or a useful resource that they can acquire just by visiting our website is another way that we're using it. And then if somebody gets referred in and I want to send them a copy of the book, either electronically or a hard copy copy of the book, either electronically or a hard copy. That's another way that we'll use the book. And then the final way well, there's a couple others, but one to get on podcast, to get speaking gigs. Another one would be for our referral partners and as a value add or a gift for them all partners and as a value add or a gift for them. So there's a ton of ideas that we plan to utilize and get an ROI from this book, which may be the first book of many, because I've enjoyed this process so much.
\n\nStuart: That's what I'd love about working with guys like you who have kind of the framework or the structure or the idea of how to use it is there and you can see the roadmap ahead. So it's always one of the more disheartening things is when you kind of check back in with people a year later and they've kind of finished the project but it's kind of fallen by the wayside and I haven't actually got around to using it that much. Much nicer like, creating the book is kind of like the first step. It's the it's. It's setting up the profile, the linkedin profile. It's the it's a foundational first step, but it's only the first step. It's the fact that it exists isn't going to do that much, but getting out there and using it. I really like the idea and again talk to people about this a lot.
\n\nThe idea of the book now becomes the tentpole around which other content is created and refers back. So they're creating posts that refer to content that's in the book. Then when people see the book they're not hearing it for the first time. It's reinforcing and building on the message that you've kind of putting out there across many different ways and the fact that people are joining calls, discovery calls or initial calls with you and they've had some exposure to the book already. Again, the things that you're saying, they're not hearing it for the first time. What you're saying is reinforcing things that they've already read. They just read it in your book. So the synergies that can come from it, the kind of multi-channel uses of having done the work to create it yeah, it really does build this kind of army of assets out there that you can just get in front of the people at the right time and move them to the next step bring awareness, you know, to draw interest, to help reinforce your solution, to help seal the deal and ultimately win the client.
\n\nMark: So it's throughout the funnel and there's a multitude of ways we can leverage the book. And another idea is for referral partners or people that also serve your ideal customer. I'll send them two or three books that they can give out to people, and they're the hero in that situation. What a great way for them to add value for their clients is to give them somebody else's book. Now, that's another way we're using that as well.
\n\nStuart: That's a psychology of why people refer, the idea that people refer because they're happy to there's the baseline of them being happy to refer, but there's also this element of social capital within the group of of them wanting to refer something because it gives them a higher status in the nicest possible sense, but for a non-competing business. So CPA or accountants that works with other B2B clients, to be able to hear them talking about excuse me, hear them talking about someone having a LinkedIn challenge and they say, oh, that's okay, I've got you covered, I know the guy. And then here let me give you a copy of the book and kind of present it across.
\n\nMark: yeah, such a fantastic idea since them as a a good guy and a thought later and a problem solver. So they're not just looking after their best interest, that they recognize the prospect is having challenges in other areas. You know what a great way for that cpa to stand out from the crowd and position themselves as a true, trusted advisor, as opposed to somebody that's trying to just sell them on their cpa services. So that's a great point.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that collaborative kind of approach to the greater good, because they've got no skin in the game. They're offering the LinkedIn book to one of their CPA clients purely as a greater good type option to improving their service and, as you say say, being that trusted partner. It's that's why I get excited and passionate about it. The more people kind of get this created into something that can be out there in the world making a difference, the more likelihood it is that it will make a difference to someone, and those differences only need to be small. But the world is a better place for having them out there than than not.
\n\nTime always goes fast on these shows. I really appreciate it. It'd be great to circle back in a couple of months actually and give people an update and then maybe talk about some more strategies. But in the meantime I want to make sure that people can get access to you and and what rev grow do. So where's a good place for people to head over to if they want to learn more about kind of utilizing and making the most of LinkedIn for themselves? Yeah, great question.
\n\nMark: Appreciate that. Yeah, just visit my LinkedIn profile. So just type in Mark McIntosh, revgrow. That's one way. Another way is to email me at Mark@RevGrow.com, or they can visit our website, which is RevGrow.com.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. As always, I'll make sure I put links in the show notes so, whether people are listening on a podcast player or they've gone to the website, there'll be links directly through there so that people can see what's going on. And on LinkedIn, I mean the connections that you make with people. Everyone listening to this show is kind of loosely connected in our world. So even making a connection there, this whole kind of referral opportunity of connecting like-minded people and being the go-to person for someone else, it's expanding that network. You never know where that goes down the track. And and of course, there's a copy of the book available there as well. So people should definitely follow, follow the links and grab that copy because, as you said before, even if people just read it and try and implement some of the things themselves, there's still a lot of gems in there to to make improvements until the point that they're ready to to get a partner to do it with them.
\n\nMark: For sure.
\n\nStuart: it's been a pleasure. Buddy, it's as I say, it always goes too fast. It'd be really good to circle back in a in a little while and see how things are going, but in the meantime I just want to say thanks again for your time and everyone, Thanks for tuning in and then we'll catch you all in the next one. Thanks, Stuart, and thank you.
","summary":"Making genuine connections is critical to building your business, and today, we're talking with a master connector.\r\n\r\nI've known Mark McIntosh for about a year, and we finally got a chance to sit down and talk about leveraging LinkedIn for lead generation. \r\n\r\nHe runs an agency that helps business owners and professionals build their networks. He has helped people from all sorts of industries, including me! I've experienced his approach and the power of an orchestrated approach.\r\n\r\nWe discuss the benefits of building genuine connections by adding value and fostering trust and ways to position yourself as a thought leader without using spammy tactics. \r\n\r\nMark also shares practical strategies for warm connections, re-engaging people, and using mutual connections. These are all ideas he has detailed in his new book 'Attracting High-Value Clients', making it a valuable resource for anyone looking to enhance their networking skills.\r\n\r\nThis podcast is a great opportunity to delve into the world of network building and, of course, to understand your book's pivotal role in this value-driven approach.","date_published":"2024-07-21T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/bccc6011-9e29-4dda-8501-5df4135ea0cf.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34708059,"duration_in_seconds":2128}]},{"id":"cffbf5d2-7f58-4a39-9b3c-26f0a8278939","title":"Ep169: Staying Top of Mind with Jamie Shibley","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/169","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, I'm excited to share a really great conversation with Jamie Shibley from The Expressory about the opportunities to create a strategic engagement plan that keeps you top of mind. \n\nJamie shares her Dream 25 process, which nurtures high-value potential clients with personalized touchpoints throughout the year. This aligns so well with the top 150 approach we've spoken about in the past that I'm sure Jamie's approach will resonate.\n\nWe explore how outsourcing tasks like customized gift sourcing frees up time while ensuring the ideas are impactful and relevant to clients' interests. Our insights highlight the importance of maintaining engagement through various channels.\n\nAs you listen, you'll also inevitably make the connection back to your book and how orchestrating a plan can really engage the individual clients you want to do business with. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n\nJamie Shibley from The Expressory introduces the Dream 25 process, a strategic engagement method aimed at nurturing relationships with top prospects over a year through personalized touchpoints.\nWe discuss the challenge that business leaders face in maintaining consistent engagement with their clients and prospects due to time constraints.\nThe episode explores how personalized gestures, such as sending customized gifts or books, can significantly enhance client loyalty and retention in the professional services industry.\nWe consider the benefits of outsourcing the tasks of strategic engagement and thoughtful gifting to save time and ensure efficiency and impact.\nThere's a discussion on the importance of aligning engagement strategies with clients' values and interests to create authentic business connections.\nJamie and I touch on the idea of decommoditizing services by showing genuine care and helpfulness through personalized outreach.\nWe highlight how strategic gifting and personalized engagement can potentially lead to referrals and other business opportunities.\nThe episode underscores the significance of intentionality and thoughtfulness in business communications, especially in a digital and transactional world.\nListeners are encouraged to provide feedback and connect with Jamie for further insights on strategic engagement and relationship-building in business.\n Practical examples are offerred for listeners seeking to refine their own engagement approaches.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/169\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nJamie Shibley:\nWebsite: The Expressory | Monthly Q&A Calls\nLinkedIn: Jamie Shibley\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n \n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nJamie: And so what? We work with a process, that is, we've picked it up there's a term out there Dream 25 process that says that you know, once a year, define a list of 25 of your top dream prospects highly valuable and design a series of touch points to get in front of them and start to build a relationship that will be sent over the course of a year. \n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart here, and today joined by Jamie Shibley. Jamie, how are you? \n\nJamie: doing wonderful, how are you? \n\nStuart: I'm good, thank you, I'm good. I was at quite a few in-person meetings this week. So I often say to people I can talk on the phone for days and it's fine, but as soon as I get in real world my voice disappears. So I'm sounding a little bit more like it was a cigar convention, but but really it wasn't, it's just my voice goes, yeah it's funny how that works. \n\nJamie: I think it's like you have to talk louder in person. \n\nStuart: I don't know yeah, the projection element definitely. No career as an opera singer, yeah you and me both right. \n\nI'm excited by today's conversation. So oftentimes we're sharing introducing people to their audience and the business that they do. They've maybe we've talked about before or there's an obvious connection. I think what stood out when we were first introduced is just your pretty unique approach to something that people will have come across before. We'll get to what it is in a second, but people will have come across it before generally. But I think the way that you guys approach it specifically is pretty unique and ties in well with what we're doing. So, as people are thinking about writing books to start the conversation, what you do really keeps that conversation going, both with prospects and clients. So why don't we start a little bit with, uh, some background on on you and the organization? \n\nJamie: yeah, so the expressory is a strategic engagement um agency right. So we help uh service providers um, professional service providers find and nurture their right fist prospects and also create loyalty with their existing clients. And I think the way you set it up is perfect because it is it's about that continuing the conversation, but really it's it's continuing to build and strengthen that relationship. I just this morning saw a quote. I don't know if you're familiar with Adam Grant. Author. Yeah, it's something like transaction. People who are transactional about their relationships only talk to you when they need something from you. Right, it's about their network and how you can serve them. The people who approach things on our relationship base talk to you when they think about you and when they care about you. \n\nAnd that's really what we're trying to change. The approach in business is helping these business leaders who get it, who, who approach what they do in business from a relationship first standpoint what they do in business from a relationship first standpoint really show that they care about the people in their community on an ongoing basis when they don't have time to do it Right. \n\nStuart: That's a great point. It's that not only introducing the idea and resonating with the people who do get it and do understand that it's not only a higher value but it's a higher contribution to the community to stay in touch, not just when you want something but when you think of them, but then the, the, um, the procedural side of it, the remembering to do it. I'm almost the, the. I'm a classic example of someone who enjoys doing it, thinks to do it occasionally, but nowhere near as much. I don't get to chance to execute on it anywhere near as much as I would like to in a perfect world. So do you find that with clients it's maybe less about introducing the idea and more about the solution, the easy nature of what you enable people to do? \n\nJamie: Well, it's interesting because my first response to you was you are absolutely not alone and, quite honestly, like I was terrible, I still am terrible about it in my personal life. It's part of how I got here, like I was the person where the birthday cards are always late. But in business, you're absolutely right. I mean the reason you're not alone, because we have to run a business too, we have to do all the other things, and so it's an interesting question because some people yes, they come to us because, oh, thank goodness, like I knew this was an option, you do it for us. But we also find I think about half of people don't even know that it's an option to outsource it. \n\nStuart: Oh, wow, okay. \n\nJamie: And if they had an idea? The people that know about the solutions. I think they're familiar with other services who you know they're gifting companies or things like that but they don't quite do it the same way we do, meaning as the business leader. I'd look at it and say but they're not going to do it how I would want it done. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nJamie: And that's to me what's important is that the work we do with you as the business owner has to reflect you and the care that you want to put out into the world yeah, it's an interesting point. \n\nStuart: I was just came off another call. We were talking to someone about this idea, that, um, that just because tying it in with the way that you would want to do it and having that as the driving force and not coming to it from the point of view of we've got access to gifts that we want to send as a transactional thing, it's almost the gifts become secondary to the opportunity to have the conversation, to connect, rather than, hey, this is a product and this is just a mechanism for sending the product. The conversation earlier was talking about books. We were saying that a lot of our competitors come to the book space from a publishing world where the book is the product and a lot of their approach is around the book being the thing and then everything else is secondary, whereas for us, the conversation is the product. The whole purpose of what we do is to allow people to get into conversation. A book just happens to be the one of the most effective ways of doing it so that slight change and and you guys, I think, are the same. \n\nIt's the approach first, the purpose first, and then the tool and the mechanism second right. \n\nJamie: I you know, when you and I first met your, your comment, the, the mindset change that offered, like you got to think about it like this is a conversation that's wonderful, that is a fantastic way to think about what you're pouring into the book, and I think you're exactly right. That's why we call this strategic engagement right, because it's creating the engagement that you really want with all those prospects and clients and, by the way, all the people that support you, because they deserve that care and attention and acknowledgement just as much. \n\nStuart: Right, let's dive into some examples then, maybe so the audiences we're listening here we send out to all the people on our list. So, primarily professional services companies perfect fit for the type of work that you're doing. We've got accountants, who are always the ones that spring to mind. I don't know whether it's my background is slightly in financial services or whether it's just accountants begin with a and in my head that's the one I get to first. \n\nBut those types of professional services organizations they've got long relationships with clients. They've got pretty robust referral networks or partner networks with people that they like, as you mentioned. They've got their team, and then they've got pretty robust referral networks or partner networks with people that they like, as you mentioned. They've got their team, and then they've got the list of unconverted prospects people where they've started conversations but not not converted yet. So what types of things? If a business owner came to you with hey, this is the audience. I know that I want to be better at engaging with people. What's's the type of things that you would begin to talk about? \n\nJamie: Well, it's interesting If we let's let's talk about some specifics, because you brought up like accounting and financial services, so we work with a number of financial, you know, wealth advisors, CPAs, accountants and with them because of, you know, compliance, it's it's a lot more about the relationships with existing clients and, if you think about that world, they're rewarded for their customer experience and you want those customers for life, and then you want their referrals, as you said, and so the best way to do that is to showcase that here and that you are always thinking of them, you know, and so we've had some wealth advisors transfer over to us. You know, for years they've had wonderful personal touch with their existing clients on birthdays I'm thinking of one in particular Every year they'd spend let's say it was like you know know, seven thousand dollars a month on sending flowers to all of the clients each month for the birthdays, right? Um, it's flowers, and while it's a wonderful gesture and certainly there are people who absolutely love it and would like nothing more um, not lasting, right. And so they came over to not only because it can be outsourced, it's taken off their team's plate, it's executed for them. \n\nEvery month, a list is coming over and what we've done is we've created almost like this catalog of opportunity you know, birthday gifts where, based on what they know about the people in that month list, they can go through and pick oh, send a wellness gift to this person, oh, this person is the. You know the whiskey drinker? Oh, this person. And so it's very personalized. But it becomes extremely easy to execute because we know, you know each each advisor is simply going through a list and saying, okay, a, b, c, oh, just birthday card for this one. So not only have we saved them money, but we've gotten meaningful because their personal gifts and the hands of their clients that are lasting and you know they tell us that they have never received so many points of engagement acknowledging the thank yous and the. You know they tell us that they have never received so many points of engagement acknowledging the thank yous and the addition. What you're really doing right is you're sparking that additional conversation. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a very specific example. Sorry, long story, but no, no, no. \n\nStuart: And that's a great example because I think, even though we've spoken before and I've kind of got some understanding of what it is that you guys do, it's still it's like for us when people say book, they think traditional book, not conversation starting book. So it's a continual opportunity to bridge that gap into the thing that we do that we believe is much more effective. So, even though we've had that conversation before, it's still. When you think about gift giving and the physical unless you want to, but the specificity and the personalization and the to be able to execute that internally, the flowers were a $7,000 budget and it took 10 hours of time to try and personalize it for each person I mean that immediately becomes unsustainable. So just dialing in the opportunity. \n\nJamie: But let's stay with your book example, because we do have a lot of authors and even what we tell people is that even if you're not an author, leveraging a book is fantastic. Okay, so we do a lot of work with prospects, so agency owners are. We have clients who are. Agency owners are always looking for you know you want to have that new business pipeline, right, but it's very easy to get caught up in the day-to-day and all the management, but forget about this until it all dries up, right. And so what? \n\nWe work with a process that is, we we've picked it up, there's a, there's a term out there dream 25 process that says that highly valuable and design a series of touch points to get in front of them and start to build a relationship that will be sent over the course of a year. And so ideally, if you do this right, you're planning this up front and it's just executed throughout the year. When we design that for people, we frequently look for an opportunity to include a book, whether it is yours because you're an author, or it is some sort of topical conversation piece. It is valuable because what you're doing when you're nurturing, what you want to do when you're designing this is that whatever you put in front of that prospect needs to be helpful. You want to help them be better at their job and in their world, and usually a book has that great information to be helpful. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that's. This is funny, because this, I mean, this is why we've had a couple of calls already and we've got more calls lined up, because the synergy in what we do is so dialed in and the approach is aligned as well. So we talk to people a lot about this idea of oftentimes they'll talk about, they'll get on our calendar, we'll talk to them about the book, some of the early questions okay, what do you want to achieve? So one of the early conversations is around this idea of visible and invisible prospects. So oftentimes we're talking to people about a book is a great way of identifying invisible prospects, because you can put it out there, ads and that type of thing. And then the people who are self-selecting because of the nature of what was written. It identifies the invisible prospects, but for a lot of organizations the opportunity is in the visible prospects. \n\nSo, like you said with the Dream 25. So we'll dial in this idea of okay, imagine that you were just writing to that one person. This project becomes valuable if you execute on that business. So let's just dial it down to that helping guide, the, the mind and the thought. What I'd like, and I think there's a real synergy between the people who are of that mindset with us, and then what you can then facilitate is that execution of the long-term plan to get that engagement going. And I think for anyone where they have got that visible prospect list, which is, I mean, the majority of businesses out there could at least write down 25 well, you would think, but it is very like one of the first roadblocks we get is okay, we'll give us your list yeah, okay, that's interesting, but I think it's again because we didn't take the time. \n\nJamie:\nYou know, I mean we're so busy with the visible list, right, because that was easy or that was you know. \n\nStuart: Yeah, right, yeah, just the top of the phone because it doesn't take any. There's not the drilling down or the thinking about it yeah, yeah. \n\nI imagine that a lot of people when you ask them. Well, you can imagine that if you're trying to address some particular who's's, your ideal, put in mind, your ideal prospect. Okay, now imagine who they are. Okay, I can imagine that. Do they have some similarities? Yeah, they've got some similarities. Okay, well, who are those names? Ah, well, when it goes from kind of the broad to the narrow conception to the individual. But there must be so many tools I'm talking fast and I'm getting enthusiastic about the idea but there must. There are so many tools out there that can help. Now I mean even linkedin, for goodness sake, if nothing else, to narrow down who that person is. I wonder whether some of it is kind of like the analysis, paralysis or the fear of missing out. Oh, if I give you these 25 names, there might be 25 other names I don't write down and the kind of FOMO type thing yeah, I think there's some of that. \n\nJamie: I think there's. I think we block ourselves in a lot of ways. Well, even if I found that company, how do I know who to talk to? Oh, how do I know they're really in that position and we just keep stopping ourselves right so interesting enough, we just did, um, I just wrapped up a blog series on teaching this process, because if they do have a list and let's say, you, you know, as business leader, you've got five, you've got ten. Okay, I mean, you can start there so say they have that. \n\nNow you ask them okay, what do you know about those companies? I know their address. \n\nStuart: I know their phone number, you know what I mean. \n\nJamie: Like all right, but how are we going to figure out what to send? Them, if you don't know much more. And so then you know. The next step is well, now you got to drill in and learn something about what are their challenges, what are their goals, what are their pain. You know who do they serve, because if again, again, if you're coming from the place of you want to show them, you are a helpful person worth knowing. \n\nStuart: Um, you got to know something about them yeah, I recorded a podcast yesterday so I think it's probably going to go the week before. Everyone listens to this. Okay, say, oh, uh, tim wachel, I think you know guys know each other sales professional, sales training expert. So does a lot of um, yeah, now I'm going, and it was just yesterday. I think you guys know each other. I'm probably butchering his surname because I tripped over it last time, but anyway, he so he's a sales professional, goes out and trains sales teams, but very much from the approach of just as you were describing. He calls it peddlers versus partners. If you're a peddler trying to transactionally sell things, then you're just engaging in the moment that you want to do some business, or at the last minute, and it's all about the close, the cell, whereas if you're a partner, you're much more interested in that long-term conversation and checking in when you think about people, exactly as you said, um, in, in fact, nothing to do. The podcast, but I'll connect to you guys on linkedin because the conversations you talk in very similar ways. So there's, there's again, it's uh, it's this like-minded community which is really the community that the podcast goes to as well, because people are receiving the email that will send out because they've explicitly expressed a preference in communicating and starting a conversation by adding value. It isn't a isn't a list of people who want to maximize row us on facebook ads. It's people who want to maximize ROAS on Facebook ads. It's people who want to give something more to the community. \n\nThe idea that you were talking about the Dream 25 and the connecting with people over the long term. We talk a lot. Again, the idea that the book is a conversation starter, so the benefit is in the follow-up. Again, the idea that the book is a conversation starter, so the benefit is in the follow-up. For the most part, we're talking about email sequences usually and keeping people engaged. That way, we do some individual work with people. That's a little bit more detailed than that, but for most of the conversations it's that educational follow-up piece. Talk a little bit more about what the follow-up is in your world, though, because you're obviously switching it into physical from digital, although I'm assuming there's opportunities. \n\nJamie: Yeah, yep, and we definitely. We will tell them up front. You know there's going to be it's got to be a mix, so there's going to be moments in this. What we do is, in the course of a year, we plan seven different touch points. \n\nStuart: Okay. \n\nJamie: Some of them should be digital right, and whether that be okay. I've sent you a couple things to get in front of you. Now I'm going to digitally invite you to, you know, interview on this podcast, right? \n\nBecause, that's my opportunity to bring you a little bit closer. Let's get to know each other. I'm going to invite you to, you know, maybe they're having a physical event and but so there's some digital or or. I'm going to send you some articles that are very specific to your industry, because I see that you guys are struggling with, or you know you, you share a lot of content on XYZ. I saw this. Maybe you're interested in it. We'll make those recommendations. \n\nWe leave a placeholder for that, and so we invite them to think about their own assets, their own materials. Maybe it's eBooks. They've done some research, right, Fill those in and then we come to the table with the physical items. But again, it's not necessarily just sending you know this a bunch of chocolate. Now, it's been done. It is. It has been done that you know, one of our clients sent 10 pounds of chocolate to their their list, and the people who are so blown away they actually saw, um, our clients at events and they're like, what did I do to get on your list? I mean, so it, it has its place, okay there's a way to do it. \n\nIt involves the messaging um but but a lot of the stuff. We look for what? What? Um, let me go back to research. So, as you've dug in to the people that are on your list and you're finding industry trends, you're finding you know this company is very focused on sustainability. This company is all about wellness. When you learn those things, there are certain themes that start to appear across your list. Then we take those themes and we look for how can we represent that with something helpful that you send to them. And this is where someone was just showing us that they pitched one of their clients. They saw that one of the prospects very into the Ohio State football, but he was also, you know, he's, a leader in the company and so they were talking about pitching a book written by one of the previous coaches. \n\nyou know from the football team, so you can see the detail, the thought that went into it, into planning these things, and that's what we look for. One more example I get just as wound up as you in this stuff, but one of our clients what we noticed across their 15 prospects, three different industries, but they all had a focus on this well-being, and so we proposed a gift. We gave a multiple options, but it was about wellness and the messages said. You know, we believe that you've now finished the first quarter of the year. Chances are you're moving fast. It can be stressful, you know, to run these stressful businesses. We really believe that, along with the work you do, you should take some time to invest in yourself. So here's a few items to remind you. So, in this particular case, it was pull up your favorite meditation app if you don't have one. Our team is always happy to make recommendations, but you can see it was nothing at all about the work they do, right. Nothing, no sales. It wasn't even a. You know this is my website. \n\nStuart: It's simply going to be signed by the owners of the company yeah, that orchestration of the idea for the long call, like without expectation, that this one email is going to be the thing to close and we're going to judge the whole success of the campaign on this one touch point. The fact that it's orchestrated and thought out and considered and there's a longer run to it than just what so many other people do, I think is the kind of Facebook ad to lead and if they haven't bought within the next 12 hours then it's dead and they're never contacted again yeah yeah, exactly, it's that thought that goes behind it and for the majority of people listening and the majority of people in our world, it's not a transactional turnaround, it's not checkout purchases, it's not commoditized assets or if the actual tool itself is commoditized. \n\nI was talking to someone yesterday who owns a photography um for real real estate photography company in san Diego. So they're young guys. They've come into it recently. They were more kind of like drone pilots and had it as a hobby and then started offering it. So they're not photographers who have then developed a business. They went into this one in the business and the opportunity. \n\nSo, again, similar to what we were saying before, the purpose and the the tool. The photography element is just the tool. So real estate photography is relatively commoditized because there's a lot of people doing it and it's not. There's no real barrier to entry. But I was saying to them that the difference that they can make is the real estate agents, particularly now, given some recent legislation changes. It's now a listing agent world. It's not a buyer's agent world because there's no monetization there, so it's a listing agent world. \n\nSo the key metric for realtors success in the long run is their ability to close listing deals well if the photographer guys can make sizzle reels for the realtor that they can show in the listing presentation, yeah, it promotes why they're the people to get. That brings them in as a partner and it decommoditizes them from oh we just take great photos and we're the cheapest into. No, we understand that the single job of work that you have now is closing these listing appointments and we're giving you enough to do that. So, anyway, a bit of a tangent there. But this idea that it's thinking about that, it's orchestrating that journey, it's a long run, it's showing value as a partner, not just trying to close, close, close. \n\nJamie: Right, well, and they're showing they're helpful and that they understand. So one more nugget that kind of feeds into what we do. There's actual social psychology behind the foundations of relationships. \n\nthat say that in order for a relationship to form and to be lasting, people need to know that you understand them. They need to feel that you validate what's important to them, like you just explained, in the realtor industry. In the real estate industry, it changed, and by if they approach it from. This is what's now important we understand it. Here's how we can help. They are validating what's important to those prospects Right. \n\nAnd then the third thing is care, and that needs to be if, if a person perceives that you care, that is a last, that's a reason for me to be in a relationship with you. So, as long as you focus on those three things understanding, validation of what's important and care you are moving that relationship into something solid for the long term. Right, and so I think you've got you know, I agree, we are very aligned in our approach and you're trying to. You're taking these books and you're trying to help your clients understand. It's not just this thing and done, right, right, this is the start. This is your, you know your, your conversation starter. It's the thing that's going to maybe capture attention. But how thoughtful you are from there forward is going to determine the relationships you create out of it. \n\nNow I just invite you to think, create out of it. Now. I just invite you to think if I did this to you, if I were sending you some of those things that I just gave you examples, so you know, every seven weeks, the first thing, you got some book from me, and then you get this nice package about something I understand about you, and it still has no, there's no cell in it. Wouldn't you be intrigued, just at least to connect, to know me. \n\nThis person is interesting right and I promise you maybe it never converts to a sale of them being your client, but most people want to take the time to get to know you and you never know what other opportunity they can bring for you, because maybe it's not them, but they know other people. \n\nStuart: Right, yeah, that's a great point, tying in that or thinking about this kind of second tier order of the referral opportunity, and if some of the messages aren't direct commercial intent for you, but sowing the subtle seed of hey, here's some way. If you know of anyone else having this problem, give them pointers allowing them to be the um, the rainmaker within their sphere of influence, kind of just giving those opportunities to elevate their social status through things that you're able to do. It's, um, much more considered than just the hey, we sell widgets. \n\nJamie: You should buy them from us, right? Yeah, business people get it. \n\nStuart: Right, yeah, yeah, and I think these days where there's I mean there's Lucy, my wife is a kindergarten teacher, so in a Waldorf school, so they're very much not they're very much focused on the individuals in the moment in the classroom and not that they separate themselves from technology in any way, but it's very individual, focused on the people in the space. So as part of their reading they've read the. This example would be better if I could remember the name of the book, but the attention, oh and the premise of the book is that generations now are disconnected because of cell phones and social media and not having that personal connection or experience with people. And then there's a couple of other books that are kind of COVID related and how the psychological elements that had. But that one-on-one connection, whether it's kindergartners or high schoolers or 20-year-old employees or me who's no longer 20, that connection that you have with people. \n\nThere is a transactional element to the fact that so much of it is online, but there's also the opportunity to make a connection and it's not quite the same as being in the office or being on a train with someone and and spending that extended period of time, but there is a way, I think, even within condensed time frames, of having more of a meaningful connection with with a person because of a thoughtfulness that you put in it. So, like I'm thinking about our connection with LinkedIn, I mean, it was a connection from a trusted third party, so there was a little bit more there, but within a half hour conversation we had a pretty meaningful connection because there was a commonality and an intentionality that we brought to it. So, anyway, anyway, without getting too kind of woo-woo about, it no, no, I yeah, but that's what I like about what you do. \n\nIt's not just his. You should send something to people because it interrupts their day and it's a what's like the dan kennedy squeezy package type thing. \n\nJamie: It's not that, it's the making a thoughtful connection and the thing that is sent just illustrates how thoughtful that that connection is that you're trying to be but I think you're tapping into with the examples of the books, um, because I've actually got a couple of them um on my shelf, um, this is what's, I think, changing, changing about our world, and it's been moving fast for about the, in this digital space that we're losing. We're losing a societal, there's a societal disconnect, and it's more important than I think we realized. And so, by helping businesses, I mean I don't know to me, this is my woo side. Helping business, I mean I don't know to me, this is my my woo side. But that's that's what drives me, is if I'm helping one. So we actually handwrite all of our messages and there are times when the, the team will know totally cow, did you like that message? \n\nStuart: it makes us feel like we can feel it in the wording, um, and that's when we know you know you're doing it right it resonates, yeah yeah, yeah it does have that kind of um I don't know if I mean synergy is the word, but it kind of doesn't quite capture it but the, it's more than the sum of the parts. There's like a meaning that carries through. So right, I think there's so much opportunity for us to be transactional and fast and quick and just play a volume game, because that's the, the, the nature of how technology scales and with I mean we haven't even touched on ai type stuff, but the, the scalability of that just increases even more. And from a book perspective. \n\nBut even now we get people saying why can't I just write this with ai? And I mean, you can write something, but the outcome is you want to be in conversation with someone. So if they turn up having read your words in the way that you describe, that's very different from having read some words that talk about something. So the same with you guys. I'm sure there's technological based solutions that people will try just to get a push button answer to. But yes, use the technology to, to, to gather the information, but adding the connection, the intentionality, the personal touch, that's that's difficult to do without that human element of connection in there somewhere yeah we ended on a bit of a philosophical tangent. \n\nI think it's important, but it is. \n\nJamie: It makes a difference yeah, I think we're seeing a little bit of a shift, like people are feeling tired of digital. The I mean ai is going to be great from a productivity standpoint and from, I mean, even what it's going to be able to stall for us, right, but from a human standpoint, yeah, you know you got to get the other side right too yeah, exactly, and that's a great point. \n\nStuart: That's the opportunity it will. It will allow us to scale and leverage some of the things that are more transactional and don't require the human touch and then free up the time to double down on that human connection and the time that it's like the service you provide the time that people would otherwise have to spend to do down on that human connection and the time that it's like the service you provide the time that people would otherwise have to spend to do the execution that you do. They can take that time and focus it on the individuals and and their part of the business that they do directly. Yeah, um, it's become a bit of a meme now because I end every episode by looking at the clock and being stunned by how quickly time goes, but honestly, it happens every time. Um, I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and and the organization and what you do. Uh, where's a good place for people to go? \n\nJamie: yeah, on our um, our website, you know, we've got some good tools that will walk you through some of the, the stuff we've been talking about with the dream 25 process and things like that. So the expressory, so theexpressory.com, and you'll be able to uh, follow along or down some of the download, some of those tools perfect. \n\nStuart: I'll put that link in and a link to your linkedin profile as well. I'll put that in the show notes just to make sure that people have just got to click straight through. And the sessions that you've done recently the webinar sessions, is that? \n\nJamie: series the q a's, or is that? No um, actually it's. It's ongoing. Um, so you should be getting an email soon on that. So it's a monthly free community call. We have conversations about relationship first related type tactics and strategies. Um, yeah, we talked about some of this stuff. \n\nStuart: So yeah, and super valuable. I've joined a couple of them. Now I'll put a link directly to that bit of the web page as well, so obviously people can find it themselves, but I'll put a link straight to it because those are were really valuable and super grateful that you put them on. Had some interesting guests. So, yeah, I'd recommend that, as people listen to that, they sign up for for that series as well thank you no problem. \n\nUm, yeah, time goes fast. It'll be really interesting. We should circle back in a couple of months and do another show as well, just maybe dive into. We'll probably get some feedback on this one, particularly so, actually, as people are listening. If there's anything about this specifically that you want us to address in a follow-up, let's do that, so people can just reply to the message and give us a shout and again, really recommend people go to the website and just understand a little bit more about your unique approach, because it is much more valuable than just the generic hey, send someone something for no reason. \n\nJamie: Yeah thank you, this has been great you and I probably chat for a long time. \n\nStuart: I know, yeah, yeah well, I think we've got, uh, we're gonna jump on a call next week and we'll, uh, we might share with people at some point in the future what we talk about. Yeah, um, jamie, thanks again for your time. It really does go fast. Everyone, thanks for listening. Check out the show notes. I'll put some connections straight through to Jamie's world and, yep, reach out to either of us with any questions. All right, thank you, we will catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, I'm excited to share a really great conversation with Jamie Shibley from The Expressory about the opportunities to create a strategic engagement plan that keeps you top of mind.
\n\nJamie shares her Dream 25 process, which nurtures high-value potential clients with personalized touchpoints throughout the year. This aligns so well with the top 150 approach we've spoken about in the past that I'm sure Jamie's approach will resonate.
\n\nWe explore how outsourcing tasks like customized gift sourcing frees up time while ensuring the ideas are impactful and relevant to clients' interests. Our insights highlight the importance of maintaining engagement through various channels.
\n\nAs you listen, you'll also inevitably make the connection back to your book and how orchestrating a plan can really engage the individual clients you want to do business with.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/169
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Jamie Shibley:
\nWebsite: The Expressory | Monthly Q&A Calls
\nLinkedIn: Jamie Shibley
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Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart here, and today joined by Jamie Shibley. Jamie, how are you?
\n\nJamie: doing wonderful, how are you?
\n\nStuart: I'm good, thank you, I'm good. I was at quite a few in-person meetings this week. So I often say to people I can talk on the phone for days and it's fine, but as soon as I get in real world my voice disappears. So I'm sounding a little bit more like it was a cigar convention, but but really it wasn't, it's just my voice goes, yeah it's funny how that works.
\n\nJamie: I think it's like you have to talk louder in person.
\n\nStuart: I don't know yeah, the projection element definitely. No career as an opera singer, yeah you and me both right.
\n\nI'm excited by today's conversation. So oftentimes we're sharing introducing people to their audience and the business that they do. They've maybe we've talked about before or there's an obvious connection. I think what stood out when we were first introduced is just your pretty unique approach to something that people will have come across before. We'll get to what it is in a second, but people will have come across it before generally. But I think the way that you guys approach it specifically is pretty unique and ties in well with what we're doing. So, as people are thinking about writing books to start the conversation, what you do really keeps that conversation going, both with prospects and clients. So why don't we start a little bit with, uh, some background on on you and the organization?
\n\nJamie: yeah, so the expressory is a strategic engagement um agency right. So we help uh service providers um, professional service providers find and nurture their right fist prospects and also create loyalty with their existing clients. And I think the way you set it up is perfect because it is it's about that continuing the conversation, but really it's it's continuing to build and strengthen that relationship. I just this morning saw a quote. I don't know if you're familiar with Adam Grant. Author. Yeah, it's something like transaction. People who are transactional about their relationships only talk to you when they need something from you. Right, it's about their network and how you can serve them. The people who approach things on our relationship base talk to you when they think about you and when they care about you.
\n\nAnd that's really what we're trying to change. The approach in business is helping these business leaders who get it, who, who approach what they do in business from a relationship first standpoint what they do in business from a relationship first standpoint really show that they care about the people in their community on an ongoing basis when they don't have time to do it Right.
\n\nStuart: That's a great point. It's that not only introducing the idea and resonating with the people who do get it and do understand that it's not only a higher value but it's a higher contribution to the community to stay in touch, not just when you want something but when you think of them, but then the, the, um, the procedural side of it, the remembering to do it. I'm almost the, the. I'm a classic example of someone who enjoys doing it, thinks to do it occasionally, but nowhere near as much. I don't get to chance to execute on it anywhere near as much as I would like to in a perfect world. So do you find that with clients it's maybe less about introducing the idea and more about the solution, the easy nature of what you enable people to do?
\n\nJamie: Well, it's interesting because my first response to you was you are absolutely not alone and, quite honestly, like I was terrible, I still am terrible about it in my personal life. It's part of how I got here, like I was the person where the birthday cards are always late. But in business, you're absolutely right. I mean the reason you're not alone, because we have to run a business too, we have to do all the other things, and so it's an interesting question because some people yes, they come to us because, oh, thank goodness, like I knew this was an option, you do it for us. But we also find I think about half of people don't even know that it's an option to outsource it.
\n\nStuart: Oh, wow, okay.
\n\nJamie: And if they had an idea? The people that know about the solutions. I think they're familiar with other services who you know they're gifting companies or things like that but they don't quite do it the same way we do, meaning as the business leader. I'd look at it and say but they're not going to do it how I would want it done.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nJamie: And that's to me what's important is that the work we do with you as the business owner has to reflect you and the care that you want to put out into the world yeah, it's an interesting point.
\n\nStuart: I was just came off another call. We were talking to someone about this idea, that, um, that just because tying it in with the way that you would want to do it and having that as the driving force and not coming to it from the point of view of we've got access to gifts that we want to send as a transactional thing, it's almost the gifts become secondary to the opportunity to have the conversation, to connect, rather than, hey, this is a product and this is just a mechanism for sending the product. The conversation earlier was talking about books. We were saying that a lot of our competitors come to the book space from a publishing world where the book is the product and a lot of their approach is around the book being the thing and then everything else is secondary, whereas for us, the conversation is the product. The whole purpose of what we do is to allow people to get into conversation. A book just happens to be the one of the most effective ways of doing it so that slight change and and you guys, I think, are the same.
\n\nIt's the approach first, the purpose first, and then the tool and the mechanism second right.
\n\nJamie: I you know, when you and I first met your, your comment, the, the mindset change that offered, like you got to think about it like this is a conversation that's wonderful, that is a fantastic way to think about what you're pouring into the book, and I think you're exactly right. That's why we call this strategic engagement right, because it's creating the engagement that you really want with all those prospects and clients and, by the way, all the people that support you, because they deserve that care and attention and acknowledgement just as much.
\n\nStuart: Right, let's dive into some examples then, maybe so the audiences we're listening here we send out to all the people on our list. So, primarily professional services companies perfect fit for the type of work that you're doing. We've got accountants, who are always the ones that spring to mind. I don't know whether it's my background is slightly in financial services or whether it's just accountants begin with a and in my head that's the one I get to first.
\n\nBut those types of professional services organizations they've got long relationships with clients. They've got pretty robust referral networks or partner networks with people that they like, as you mentioned. They've got their team, and then they've got pretty robust referral networks or partner networks with people that they like, as you mentioned. They've got their team, and then they've got the list of unconverted prospects people where they've started conversations but not not converted yet. So what types of things? If a business owner came to you with hey, this is the audience. I know that I want to be better at engaging with people. What's's the type of things that you would begin to talk about?
\n\nJamie: Well, it's interesting If we let's let's talk about some specifics, because you brought up like accounting and financial services, so we work with a number of financial, you know, wealth advisors, CPAs, accountants and with them because of, you know, compliance, it's it's a lot more about the relationships with existing clients and, if you think about that world, they're rewarded for their customer experience and you want those customers for life, and then you want their referrals, as you said, and so the best way to do that is to showcase that here and that you are always thinking of them, you know, and so we've had some wealth advisors transfer over to us. You know, for years they've had wonderful personal touch with their existing clients on birthdays I'm thinking of one in particular Every year they'd spend let's say it was like you know know, seven thousand dollars a month on sending flowers to all of the clients each month for the birthdays, right? Um, it's flowers, and while it's a wonderful gesture and certainly there are people who absolutely love it and would like nothing more um, not lasting, right. And so they came over to not only because it can be outsourced, it's taken off their team's plate, it's executed for them.
\n\nEvery month, a list is coming over and what we've done is we've created almost like this catalog of opportunity you know, birthday gifts where, based on what they know about the people in that month list, they can go through and pick oh, send a wellness gift to this person, oh, this person is the. You know the whiskey drinker? Oh, this person. And so it's very personalized. But it becomes extremely easy to execute because we know, you know each each advisor is simply going through a list and saying, okay, a, b, c, oh, just birthday card for this one. So not only have we saved them money, but we've gotten meaningful because their personal gifts and the hands of their clients that are lasting and you know they tell us that they have never received so many points of engagement acknowledging the thank yous and the. You know they tell us that they have never received so many points of engagement acknowledging the thank yous and the addition. What you're really doing right is you're sparking that additional conversation. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a very specific example. Sorry, long story, but no, no, no.
\n\nStuart: And that's a great example because I think, even though we've spoken before and I've kind of got some understanding of what it is that you guys do, it's still it's like for us when people say book, they think traditional book, not conversation starting book. So it's a continual opportunity to bridge that gap into the thing that we do that we believe is much more effective. So, even though we've had that conversation before, it's still. When you think about gift giving and the physical unless you want to, but the specificity and the personalization and the to be able to execute that internally, the flowers were a $7,000 budget and it took 10 hours of time to try and personalize it for each person I mean that immediately becomes unsustainable. So just dialing in the opportunity.
\n\nJamie: But let's stay with your book example, because we do have a lot of authors and even what we tell people is that even if you're not an author, leveraging a book is fantastic. Okay, so we do a lot of work with prospects, so agency owners are. We have clients who are. Agency owners are always looking for you know you want to have that new business pipeline, right, but it's very easy to get caught up in the day-to-day and all the management, but forget about this until it all dries up, right. And so what?
\n\nWe work with a process that is, we we've picked it up, there's a, there's a term out there dream 25 process that says that highly valuable and design a series of touch points to get in front of them and start to build a relationship that will be sent over the course of a year. And so ideally, if you do this right, you're planning this up front and it's just executed throughout the year. When we design that for people, we frequently look for an opportunity to include a book, whether it is yours because you're an author, or it is some sort of topical conversation piece. It is valuable because what you're doing when you're nurturing, what you want to do when you're designing this is that whatever you put in front of that prospect needs to be helpful. You want to help them be better at their job and in their world, and usually a book has that great information to be helpful.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that's. This is funny, because this, I mean, this is why we've had a couple of calls already and we've got more calls lined up, because the synergy in what we do is so dialed in and the approach is aligned as well. So we talk to people a lot about this idea of oftentimes they'll talk about, they'll get on our calendar, we'll talk to them about the book, some of the early questions okay, what do you want to achieve? So one of the early conversations is around this idea of visible and invisible prospects. So oftentimes we're talking to people about a book is a great way of identifying invisible prospects, because you can put it out there, ads and that type of thing. And then the people who are self-selecting because of the nature of what was written. It identifies the invisible prospects, but for a lot of organizations the opportunity is in the visible prospects.
\n\nSo, like you said with the Dream 25. So we'll dial in this idea of okay, imagine that you were just writing to that one person. This project becomes valuable if you execute on that business. So let's just dial it down to that helping guide, the, the mind and the thought. What I'd like, and I think there's a real synergy between the people who are of that mindset with us, and then what you can then facilitate is that execution of the long-term plan to get that engagement going. And I think for anyone where they have got that visible prospect list, which is, I mean, the majority of businesses out there could at least write down 25 well, you would think, but it is very like one of the first roadblocks we get is okay, we'll give us your list yeah, okay, that's interesting, but I think it's again because we didn't take the time.
\n\nJamie:
\nYou know, I mean we're so busy with the visible list, right, because that was easy or that was you know.
Stuart: Yeah, right, yeah, just the top of the phone because it doesn't take any. There's not the drilling down or the thinking about it yeah, yeah.
\n\nI imagine that a lot of people when you ask them. Well, you can imagine that if you're trying to address some particular who's's, your ideal, put in mind, your ideal prospect. Okay, now imagine who they are. Okay, I can imagine that. Do they have some similarities? Yeah, they've got some similarities. Okay, well, who are those names? Ah, well, when it goes from kind of the broad to the narrow conception to the individual. But there must be so many tools I'm talking fast and I'm getting enthusiastic about the idea but there must. There are so many tools out there that can help. Now I mean even linkedin, for goodness sake, if nothing else, to narrow down who that person is. I wonder whether some of it is kind of like the analysis, paralysis or the fear of missing out. Oh, if I give you these 25 names, there might be 25 other names I don't write down and the kind of FOMO type thing yeah, I think there's some of that.
\n\nJamie: I think there's. I think we block ourselves in a lot of ways. Well, even if I found that company, how do I know who to talk to? Oh, how do I know they're really in that position and we just keep stopping ourselves right so interesting enough, we just did, um, I just wrapped up a blog series on teaching this process, because if they do have a list and let's say, you, you know, as business leader, you've got five, you've got ten. Okay, I mean, you can start there so say they have that.
\n\nNow you ask them okay, what do you know about those companies? I know their address.
\n\nStuart: I know their phone number, you know what I mean.
\n\nJamie: Like all right, but how are we going to figure out what to send? Them, if you don't know much more. And so then you know. The next step is well, now you got to drill in and learn something about what are their challenges, what are their goals, what are their pain. You know who do they serve, because if again, again, if you're coming from the place of you want to show them, you are a helpful person worth knowing.
\n\nStuart: Um, you got to know something about them yeah, I recorded a podcast yesterday so I think it's probably going to go the week before. Everyone listens to this. Okay, say, oh, uh, tim wachel, I think you know guys know each other sales professional, sales training expert. So does a lot of um, yeah, now I'm going, and it was just yesterday. I think you guys know each other. I'm probably butchering his surname because I tripped over it last time, but anyway, he so he's a sales professional, goes out and trains sales teams, but very much from the approach of just as you were describing. He calls it peddlers versus partners. If you're a peddler trying to transactionally sell things, then you're just engaging in the moment that you want to do some business, or at the last minute, and it's all about the close, the cell, whereas if you're a partner, you're much more interested in that long-term conversation and checking in when you think about people, exactly as you said, um, in, in fact, nothing to do. The podcast, but I'll connect to you guys on linkedin because the conversations you talk in very similar ways. So there's, there's again, it's uh, it's this like-minded community which is really the community that the podcast goes to as well, because people are receiving the email that will send out because they've explicitly expressed a preference in communicating and starting a conversation by adding value. It isn't a isn't a list of people who want to maximize row us on facebook ads. It's people who want to maximize ROAS on Facebook ads. It's people who want to give something more to the community.
\n\nThe idea that you were talking about the Dream 25 and the connecting with people over the long term. We talk a lot. Again, the idea that the book is a conversation starter, so the benefit is in the follow-up. Again, the idea that the book is a conversation starter, so the benefit is in the follow-up. For the most part, we're talking about email sequences usually and keeping people engaged. That way, we do some individual work with people. That's a little bit more detailed than that, but for most of the conversations it's that educational follow-up piece. Talk a little bit more about what the follow-up is in your world, though, because you're obviously switching it into physical from digital, although I'm assuming there's opportunities.
\n\nJamie: Yeah, yep, and we definitely. We will tell them up front. You know there's going to be it's got to be a mix, so there's going to be moments in this. What we do is, in the course of a year, we plan seven different touch points.
\n\nStuart: Okay.
\n\nJamie: Some of them should be digital right, and whether that be okay. I've sent you a couple things to get in front of you. Now I'm going to digitally invite you to, you know, interview on this podcast, right?
\n\nBecause, that's my opportunity to bring you a little bit closer. Let's get to know each other. I'm going to invite you to, you know, maybe they're having a physical event and but so there's some digital or or. I'm going to send you some articles that are very specific to your industry, because I see that you guys are struggling with, or you know you, you share a lot of content on XYZ. I saw this. Maybe you're interested in it. We'll make those recommendations.
\n\nWe leave a placeholder for that, and so we invite them to think about their own assets, their own materials. Maybe it's eBooks. They've done some research, right, Fill those in and then we come to the table with the physical items. But again, it's not necessarily just sending you know this a bunch of chocolate. Now, it's been done. It is. It has been done that you know, one of our clients sent 10 pounds of chocolate to their their list, and the people who are so blown away they actually saw, um, our clients at events and they're like, what did I do to get on your list? I mean, so it, it has its place, okay there's a way to do it.
\n\nIt involves the messaging um but but a lot of the stuff. We look for what? What? Um, let me go back to research. So, as you've dug in to the people that are on your list and you're finding industry trends, you're finding you know this company is very focused on sustainability. This company is all about wellness. When you learn those things, there are certain themes that start to appear across your list. Then we take those themes and we look for how can we represent that with something helpful that you send to them. And this is where someone was just showing us that they pitched one of their clients. They saw that one of the prospects very into the Ohio State football, but he was also, you know, he's, a leader in the company and so they were talking about pitching a book written by one of the previous coaches.
\n\nyou know from the football team, so you can see the detail, the thought that went into it, into planning these things, and that's what we look for. One more example I get just as wound up as you in this stuff, but one of our clients what we noticed across their 15 prospects, three different industries, but they all had a focus on this well-being, and so we proposed a gift. We gave a multiple options, but it was about wellness and the messages said. You know, we believe that you've now finished the first quarter of the year. Chances are you're moving fast. It can be stressful, you know, to run these stressful businesses. We really believe that, along with the work you do, you should take some time to invest in yourself. So here's a few items to remind you. So, in this particular case, it was pull up your favorite meditation app if you don't have one. Our team is always happy to make recommendations, but you can see it was nothing at all about the work they do, right. Nothing, no sales. It wasn't even a. You know this is my website.
\n\nStuart: It's simply going to be signed by the owners of the company yeah, that orchestration of the idea for the long call, like without expectation, that this one email is going to be the thing to close and we're going to judge the whole success of the campaign on this one touch point. The fact that it's orchestrated and thought out and considered and there's a longer run to it than just what so many other people do, I think is the kind of Facebook ad to lead and if they haven't bought within the next 12 hours then it's dead and they're never contacted again yeah yeah, exactly, it's that thought that goes behind it and for the majority of people listening and the majority of people in our world, it's not a transactional turnaround, it's not checkout purchases, it's not commoditized assets or if the actual tool itself is commoditized.
\n\nI was talking to someone yesterday who owns a photography um for real real estate photography company in san Diego. So they're young guys. They've come into it recently. They were more kind of like drone pilots and had it as a hobby and then started offering it. So they're not photographers who have then developed a business. They went into this one in the business and the opportunity.
\n\nSo, again, similar to what we were saying before, the purpose and the the tool. The photography element is just the tool. So real estate photography is relatively commoditized because there's a lot of people doing it and it's not. There's no real barrier to entry. But I was saying to them that the difference that they can make is the real estate agents, particularly now, given some recent legislation changes. It's now a listing agent world. It's not a buyer's agent world because there's no monetization there, so it's a listing agent world.
\n\nSo the key metric for realtors success in the long run is their ability to close listing deals well if the photographer guys can make sizzle reels for the realtor that they can show in the listing presentation, yeah, it promotes why they're the people to get. That brings them in as a partner and it decommoditizes them from oh we just take great photos and we're the cheapest into. No, we understand that the single job of work that you have now is closing these listing appointments and we're giving you enough to do that. So, anyway, a bit of a tangent there. But this idea that it's thinking about that, it's orchestrating that journey, it's a long run, it's showing value as a partner, not just trying to close, close, close.
\n\nJamie: Right, well, and they're showing they're helpful and that they understand. So one more nugget that kind of feeds into what we do. There's actual social psychology behind the foundations of relationships.
\n\nthat say that in order for a relationship to form and to be lasting, people need to know that you understand them. They need to feel that you validate what's important to them, like you just explained, in the realtor industry. In the real estate industry, it changed, and by if they approach it from. This is what's now important we understand it. Here's how we can help. They are validating what's important to those prospects Right.
\n\nAnd then the third thing is care, and that needs to be if, if a person perceives that you care, that is a last, that's a reason for me to be in a relationship with you. So, as long as you focus on those three things understanding, validation of what's important and care you are moving that relationship into something solid for the long term. Right, and so I think you've got you know, I agree, we are very aligned in our approach and you're trying to. You're taking these books and you're trying to help your clients understand. It's not just this thing and done, right, right, this is the start. This is your, you know your, your conversation starter. It's the thing that's going to maybe capture attention. But how thoughtful you are from there forward is going to determine the relationships you create out of it.
\n\nNow I just invite you to think, create out of it. Now. I just invite you to think if I did this to you, if I were sending you some of those things that I just gave you examples, so you know, every seven weeks, the first thing, you got some book from me, and then you get this nice package about something I understand about you, and it still has no, there's no cell in it. Wouldn't you be intrigued, just at least to connect, to know me.
\n\nThis person is interesting right and I promise you maybe it never converts to a sale of them being your client, but most people want to take the time to get to know you and you never know what other opportunity they can bring for you, because maybe it's not them, but they know other people.
\n\nStuart: Right, yeah, that's a great point, tying in that or thinking about this kind of second tier order of the referral opportunity, and if some of the messages aren't direct commercial intent for you, but sowing the subtle seed of hey, here's some way. If you know of anyone else having this problem, give them pointers allowing them to be the um, the rainmaker within their sphere of influence, kind of just giving those opportunities to elevate their social status through things that you're able to do. It's, um, much more considered than just the hey, we sell widgets.
\n\nJamie: You should buy them from us, right? Yeah, business people get it.
\n\nStuart: Right, yeah, yeah, and I think these days where there's I mean there's Lucy, my wife is a kindergarten teacher, so in a Waldorf school, so they're very much not they're very much focused on the individuals in the moment in the classroom and not that they separate themselves from technology in any way, but it's very individual, focused on the people in the space. So as part of their reading they've read the. This example would be better if I could remember the name of the book, but the attention, oh and the premise of the book is that generations now are disconnected because of cell phones and social media and not having that personal connection or experience with people. And then there's a couple of other books that are kind of COVID related and how the psychological elements that had. But that one-on-one connection, whether it's kindergartners or high schoolers or 20-year-old employees or me who's no longer 20, that connection that you have with people.
\n\nThere is a transactional element to the fact that so much of it is online, but there's also the opportunity to make a connection and it's not quite the same as being in the office or being on a train with someone and and spending that extended period of time, but there is a way, I think, even within condensed time frames, of having more of a meaningful connection with with a person because of a thoughtfulness that you put in it. So, like I'm thinking about our connection with LinkedIn, I mean, it was a connection from a trusted third party, so there was a little bit more there, but within a half hour conversation we had a pretty meaningful connection because there was a commonality and an intentionality that we brought to it. So, anyway, anyway, without getting too kind of woo-woo about, it no, no, I yeah, but that's what I like about what you do.
\n\nIt's not just his. You should send something to people because it interrupts their day and it's a what's like the dan kennedy squeezy package type thing.
\n\nJamie: It's not that, it's the making a thoughtful connection and the thing that is sent just illustrates how thoughtful that that connection is that you're trying to be but I think you're tapping into with the examples of the books, um, because I've actually got a couple of them um on my shelf, um, this is what's, I think, changing, changing about our world, and it's been moving fast for about the, in this digital space that we're losing. We're losing a societal, there's a societal disconnect, and it's more important than I think we realized. And so, by helping businesses, I mean I don't know to me, this is my woo side. Helping business, I mean I don't know to me, this is my my woo side. But that's that's what drives me, is if I'm helping one. So we actually handwrite all of our messages and there are times when the, the team will know totally cow, did you like that message?
\n\nStuart: it makes us feel like we can feel it in the wording, um, and that's when we know you know you're doing it right it resonates, yeah yeah, yeah it does have that kind of um I don't know if I mean synergy is the word, but it kind of doesn't quite capture it but the, it's more than the sum of the parts. There's like a meaning that carries through. So right, I think there's so much opportunity for us to be transactional and fast and quick and just play a volume game, because that's the, the, the nature of how technology scales and with I mean we haven't even touched on ai type stuff, but the, the scalability of that just increases even more. And from a book perspective.
\n\nBut even now we get people saying why can't I just write this with ai? And I mean, you can write something, but the outcome is you want to be in conversation with someone. So if they turn up having read your words in the way that you describe, that's very different from having read some words that talk about something. So the same with you guys. I'm sure there's technological based solutions that people will try just to get a push button answer to. But yes, use the technology to, to, to gather the information, but adding the connection, the intentionality, the personal touch, that's that's difficult to do without that human element of connection in there somewhere yeah we ended on a bit of a philosophical tangent.
\n\nI think it's important, but it is.
\n\nJamie: It makes a difference yeah, I think we're seeing a little bit of a shift, like people are feeling tired of digital. The I mean ai is going to be great from a productivity standpoint and from, I mean, even what it's going to be able to stall for us, right, but from a human standpoint, yeah, you know you got to get the other side right too yeah, exactly, and that's a great point.
\n\nStuart: That's the opportunity it will. It will allow us to scale and leverage some of the things that are more transactional and don't require the human touch and then free up the time to double down on that human connection and the time that it's like the service you provide the time that people would otherwise have to spend to do down on that human connection and the time that it's like the service you provide the time that people would otherwise have to spend to do the execution that you do. They can take that time and focus it on the individuals and and their part of the business that they do directly. Yeah, um, it's become a bit of a meme now because I end every episode by looking at the clock and being stunned by how quickly time goes, but honestly, it happens every time. Um, I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and and the organization and what you do. Uh, where's a good place for people to go?
\n\nJamie: yeah, on our um, our website, you know, we've got some good tools that will walk you through some of the, the stuff we've been talking about with the dream 25 process and things like that. So the expressory, so theexpressory.com, and you'll be able to uh, follow along or down some of the download, some of those tools perfect.
\n\nStuart: I'll put that link in and a link to your linkedin profile as well. I'll put that in the show notes just to make sure that people have just got to click straight through. And the sessions that you've done recently the webinar sessions, is that?
\n\nJamie: series the q a's, or is that? No um, actually it's. It's ongoing. Um, so you should be getting an email soon on that. So it's a monthly free community call. We have conversations about relationship first related type tactics and strategies. Um, yeah, we talked about some of this stuff.
\n\nStuart: So yeah, and super valuable. I've joined a couple of them. Now I'll put a link directly to that bit of the web page as well, so obviously people can find it themselves, but I'll put a link straight to it because those are were really valuable and super grateful that you put them on. Had some interesting guests. So, yeah, I'd recommend that, as people listen to that, they sign up for for that series as well thank you no problem.
\n\nUm, yeah, time goes fast. It'll be really interesting. We should circle back in a couple of months and do another show as well, just maybe dive into. We'll probably get some feedback on this one, particularly so, actually, as people are listening. If there's anything about this specifically that you want us to address in a follow-up, let's do that, so people can just reply to the message and give us a shout and again, really recommend people go to the website and just understand a little bit more about your unique approach, because it is much more valuable than just the generic hey, send someone something for no reason.
\n\nJamie: Yeah thank you, this has been great you and I probably chat for a long time.
\n\nStuart: I know, yeah, yeah well, I think we've got, uh, we're gonna jump on a call next week and we'll, uh, we might share with people at some point in the future what we talk about. Yeah, um, jamie, thanks again for your time. It really does go fast. Everyone, thanks for listening. Check out the show notes. I'll put some connections straight through to Jamie's world and, yep, reach out to either of us with any questions. All right, thank you, we will catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, I'm excited to share a really great conversation with Jamie Shibley from The Expressory about the opportunities to create a strategic engagement plan that keeps you top of mind. \r\n\r\nJamie shares her Dream 25 process, which nurtures high-value potential clients with personalized touchpoints throughout the year. This aligns so well with the top 150 approach we've spoken about in the past that I'm sure Jamie's approach will resonate.\r\n\r\nWe explore how outsourcing tasks like customized gift sourcing frees up time while ensuring the ideas are impactful and relevant to clients' interests. Our insights highlight the importance of maintaining engagement through various channels.\r\n\r\nAs you listen, you'll also inevitably make the connection back to your book and how orchestrating a plan can really engage the individual clients you want to do business with. ","date_published":"2024-06-30T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/cffbf5d2-7f58-4a39-9b3c-26f0a8278939.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28179663,"duration_in_seconds":2338}]},{"id":"f553623f-b640-4638-9181-53c8ad19e4ea","title":"Ep168: Secrets of Successful Sales with Tim Wackel","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/168","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nWe all have a sales role. Whether selling to clients, team members, or employees, the opportunity to improve our skills in this area can be hugely beneficial.\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with sales expert Tim Wackel about what it means to be a successful salesperson. \n\nTim shares how his engineering background sparked a passion to focus less on individual transactions and more on the outcomes of the human connections behind every interaction.\n\nWe explore his philosophy that true sales mastery is an art that requires patience and care to understand clients' needs at a deep level. He offers a candid perspective on cultivating sales skills.\n\nTim's experience with salespeople across industries leads to some great examples and techniques we can all use.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n\nTim Wackel discusses transitioning from electrical engineering to sales, and how sales, when done correctly, can be a powerful tool to help people.\nWe examine the long-term nature of successful selling and creating value for clients rather than just meeting sales quotas.\nThe conversation differentiates between peddlers, who are transaction-focused, and partners, who invest in their clients' long-term success and satisfaction.\nWe explore the importance of consistency in actions over seeking immediate, flashy results for building a reliable brand presence.\nThe role of books in establishing conversations and authority in a field is discussed, along with the limitations of AI as a replacement for authentic voice and personal connections.\nI share insights on the significance of asking questions and listening to clients to ensure that the sales narrative is informed and focused on clients' needs.\nTim highlights the strategy of using the back cover of a book as a conversation starter and the placement of probing questions to engage interested clients.\nThere's an emphasis on relationship-building and understanding clients' needs for fostering long-term partnerships and repeat business.\nWe address the challenges sales teams face in balancing the pressure of meeting immediate sales targets with maintaining a customer-centric approach.\nTim uses an agricultural analogy to describe nurturing sales skills, emphasizing that sales success is not immediate but requires time and effort to grow.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/168\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nTim Wackel:\nWebsite: Tim Wackel \nLinkedIn: Tim Wackel\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n \n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nTim: But we've got to give those seeds a chance to grow. You know, I kind of grew up in an agricultural surrounding and you know my dad didn't wake up in the fall and say, oh crap, I need a crop. I'm going to go out and plant Right. You plant in the spring, you fertilize, you till you need sunshine, you need moisture, and then in the fall you have a crop. And it's the same way with selling and sales skills. You just you can't flip a switch and get good, it's a skill. \n\nStuart: Everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today super excited because we're sharing this conversation with Tim Wackel. Is it Wackel or Wackel? I suddenly thought I tripped over a name. I started today by forgetting three people's names on calls, so obviously I should have been more caffeinated. \n\nTim: I do it all the time. \n\nStuart: So, yeah, super excited today because we're sharing this conversation with Tim. Tim and I were introduced through a mutual friend a month or so ago and what really stood out and why I wanted to get on the call today is not only is Tim using a book in his lead generation process, but his approach to business development and his background in sales really I think resonates with everyone that's listening here in sales, really, I think resonates with everyone that's listening here, because ultimately, we're writing books to be in conversations with potential clients and that inevitably leads to a sales conversation. Tim, why don't we start give people a bit of a background on you and your, because you've got quite an illustrious history. \n\nTim: Well, I don't know if it's illustrious, so I'm kind of an accidental salesperson, stuart. At university I studied electrical engineering and when I got out of school I was an electrical engineer but was quickly approached by the management team and they really thought you know, maybe my skills would be better used in a technical sales role. And I don't know that I necessarily had skills that would lend me to be successful at a technical sales role, or if I was just really bad at soldering circuit boards. I think it was more the latter and less the former, but I started that journey almost four decades ago and figured it out. A lot of people and myself at that time thought that selling was dirty, slimy, manipulative, and it took me a while. But I got my head around that. No, selling, when done correctly, is an art and a science and you're genuinely out to try to help people do things they don't know they can do. \n\nStuart: That's the key term, isn't it? When it's done properly, there's good and bad. It's all under the spectrum and it's certainly the bad that gets a lot of the heat and light and people kind of default to thinking that way when they don't know about it. It gets a lot of the heat and light and people kind of default to thinking that way when they don't know about it. But at the end of the day, we're trying to help people make a decision that's best for them and really kind of advance what they're trying to do. So I think it's a superpower. It can be used for good or bad. \n\nTim: And unfortunately or fortunately for me a lot more people use it for bad than good, and I don't think they're purposeful on using it for bad. They just don't know any better. \n\nStuart: Right. Actually that's a great point, that idea of not knowing any better. I think a lot of time people are almost like you were, to a certain degree thrust into the role and it's not necessarily something that they're looking for. It tends to be the more seasoned professional that's in it because they've developed a love for it. I think at the junior end of the spectrum it's a little bit more sink or swim and the pressure to make sure that you don't sink too quickly leads to maybe unaligned outcomes. \n\nOn that sales approach and this idea of if I marry up the thought of the conversation, starting books that we help people to create, so identifying the need, the question and then delivering value to start that conversation, that I'm guessing starts to marry in with work that you do and helping teams to both dial in their sales strategies and tactics but also the development and the presentations that they ultimately give to people. What if people are listening here, thinking about starting that conversation? What is it about the journey and the things that they need to know? That makes that a win for everyone, If that's not too broad a question. \n\nTim: Well, you know, it might be, stuart, so I'd be more than happy to drill down on it with you, but, at the end of the day, if what you do, if the service you provide or the product that you offer is not a good fit and doesn't have a real ROI for your client or your prospect, then you need to get the hell out of there. You need to live for another day, and if you've got that kind of mindset, and if you have that kind of mindset, I believe you can be very successful. Now, that's the good news. The bad news is, though, if you have that mindset, you're going to have dry weeks, you're going to have dry months, you're going to have dry quarters right, if you want to make $120,000 a year and you want to do it $10,000 a month, you probably shouldn't be in sales, right, because that's just not the way it works. Again, if you've got the right intent, it all works out in the end, but it's not a short-term play, it's a long-term play. \n\nStuart: How do you find that marries up with teams? So the work that you do with sales teams there's a pressure in a work environment to meet quotas and targets. Is that a tension that's difficult to balance out between the people who are trying to live in a customer-centric world as much as possible versus having to meet quotas? \n\nTim: It can be. I would tell you, stuart, that if a client called me, or a prospective client called me, and it was all about making the number, and they wanted to make the number this week, this month, this quarter, I'm probably not the right guy. Eventually, there's going to be so much pressure to perform that the team, quite frankly, is not going to be open to new ideas. If I come in and I'm hosting a one-day, quite frankly, is not going to be open to new ideas, right, if I come in and I'm hosting a one-day workshop, people are not going to pay attention because after about an hour they're checking their phones, they're checking their voicemail, they're checking social media because they've got to go kill dinner. So so oftentimes when I work with clients, it's like hey, listen, here's the way this thing works is, you know, we're going to work with your team for a full day or a half a day or two days, whatever the case is, but we've got to give those seeds a chance to grow. \n\nYou know, I kind of grew up in an agricultural surrounding and you know my dad didn't wake up in the fall and say, oh crap, I need a crop. I'm going to go out and plant. Right. You plant in the spring, fertilize, you till, you need sunshine, you need moisture, and then in the fall you have a crop. And it's the same way with selling and sales skills. You just you can't flip a switch and get good. It's a skill. I love to play golf and golf is the same way, you know. Hey, I really want to be good at golf, so I'm going to go take a lesson and now I'm good at golf. No, you're not. You know it's. \n\nStuart:It takes a long time to develop, uh, the skills, the mindset and the attitude to be successful, right? One of the podcasts just before this was with a friend of ours called dave depaula, who wrote a book. So they have a golf training aid that helps break bad habits on the swing. So definitely not my own expertise at all, but he was saying similar things. If you want to be good at it, you kind of practice, but then you need to learn, unlearn all of the bad habits and then you can go forwards, which I guess is there's a correlation there with sales training as well. \n\nIt's easy to pick up bad habits just from the pressure of the environment and what everyone else is doing yeah I think what I liked about the approach of the or the agricultural analogy and the approach of what you do, this idea of sowing a crop that yields over the long call. From the book perspective, we talk about a very similar strategy of there's no such thing as dead leads. You don't know when the day is for the person. The other person's in control of whether they say yes, our job is to identify them in the first place, which is what we use the books for, but then nurture that relationship over the long run until today is the day for them. That tension between needing to go out and make the kill versus being in it for the long haul is that something that a lot of people struggle with as well? Either because they're just conditioned to think about it as, like the Glenn Gary, glenn Ross type, always be closing, as opposed to this longer term cycle? \n\nTim: Yeah, I guess the easiest way for me to answer that is that's where you get the good sales reps versus the bad sales reps. That's where you get the slimy, manipulative, pushy sales rep versus a sales rep. That's really in it for the long play. So the hey, you know. You know, first place is a set of steak knives and second place is I fire you that again. \n\nI don't play in that environment because that's that's not what selling should be, and so obviously you know then that begs the question. I don't know if it begs the question. Ultimately, it takes time to build that book of business. A guy I sold with years and years ago used to say selling is like a flywheel. Right, and you go up to a flywheel that is static. \n\nIt takes a lot of time, energy and effort to get that bad boy to start spinning. Right, you got to really put in the work, you got to put in the effort, you got to put in the energy. But once you get that bad boy spinning, then all you got to do every once in a while is just give it a little more energy, just give it a little more energy. And I think it's a wonderful analogy to what selling is like. So you know, you hire somebody, you bring somebody in or you put somebody in a brand new territory. To expect results in 30 or 60 or even 90 days, I think is typically in most situations, unrealistic. You've got to have a certain amount of time to develop that book of business and then, once you develop that book of business, then again you just got to keep the energy going. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that approach of keeping the energy going. The kind of line between sales and marketing is always kind of defined by definition and everyone's got a slightly different perspective on it the more long-term nurturing I think again, not being in that area of business, so looking at it from an outsider, you kind of have the perception that sales people think of the short term and marketers think of the long term. But understanding that it's the long term that makes the sales successful, the people who are most successful in that space, is that more from that long-term nurturing and checking in with no real a genuine interest in the clients rather than necessarily a sales intent? Is it much more about relationship building rather than kind of responding to a particular activity? \n\nTim: I believe. So I think salespeople kind of fall into one of two camps, that you're either a peddler or your partner. \n\nPeddlers show up when there's need budget and timeframe. Right, A peddler is there to sell you something. A partner is not. A partner will sell you something and then, in 60 days, follow up and say, hey, how's it working? What do you like best about our widget? If I gave you a magic wand and there's one thing about our widget that you could change, what would you change and why? Right, A partner is there because they want their client to be successful, so they will have conversations and they will show up even though there's no food in the trough. The peddler only shows up if there's food in the trough. If there's need budget, timeframe, I'm there because I'm a peddler. Partners are more like hey, listen, I may not have a solution for you today, but I'd just love to know more about what you guys have got going on, what direction you're trying to get to and what are some of the current obstacles you're facing. Completely different conversations. \n\nStuart: I think that's the great thing, that's what resonated when we first spoke a couple of weeks ago this idea of being in conversation and adding value and nurturing over the long term until an opportunity presents itself that's mutually beneficial. There's definitely an element of that in the things that we do. So creating a book isn't something that the peddlers are interested so much because it's too long-term based, Whereas the partner approach, as you describe it's much more around adding that value from the perspective that we come to in terms of writing the book. At least adding that value in the perspective that we come to in terms of writing the book, at least adding that value in the thing that identifies the invisible leads to begin with and gets people to raise their hand, but is really the starting point of the conversation. And the book is never a build it and they will come type thing or you're very rarely converting people with the book, but it's starting that conversation. \n\nHow do you? Not secrets or magic tricks, but the challenge that some people have is okay, I can envisage collecting all of these leads and to a certain degree I can imagine staying in touch with them, but the practicalities of staying in touch or the mental models to remember to stay in touch. Are there any pointers that you have for people so that becomes top of mind rather than kind of day-to-day and peddler type activity, pointers that you have for people so that becomes top of mind rather than kind of day-to-day and peddler type activity? \n\nTim: Yeah, you know, consistency matters. You know 1% every day. What's the old saying If you just get 1% better every day, in 72 days you're twice as good as you are right now. So you know, it's not about blotting out the sun or boiling the ocean, but it's about hey, what can I do to make sure that the people I want to do business with know that I'm here and that I'm adding value? You know, in my own practice, every week we're pushing short form videos, two minute tips with Tim right. We're pushing that to over 30,000 people. I don't have 30,000 people calling me right now because they got this morning's tip right, but out of the 30,000, maybe we got 30 that got that tip and they're like golly, you know what? This is a great idea and my sales team really should get their head around this. Or, I'd like to learn more. I'd like to discuss this with Tim. So Again, it's about planting seeds. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and that's such a great point, isn't it? I think it's easy to underestimate the effectiveness of small, incremental but consistent activities. There's so many things Like you think of social media, the successes going viral when the likelihood of that ever happening is so slim in the first place, and even the effectiveness of that is much smaller than just a consistent, small amount of outreach and the overhead of writing or recording a long video. It's a headache, it takes some setup, but doing a quick selfie type thing, capturing something in the moment, being able to share that quickly and tools have definitely improved that even in the last five years, even since the pandemic the tools that are available it's really improved it. We didn't talk about this beforehand, so you might not have a particular opinion on it. I'm just thinking about tools, the amount that AI is available to support people at the moment. I think this is another example of things can be used for good or things can be used for bad. \n\nAnd as far as book writing goes, we'll have some people that say, oh well, can't AI do that for me? And our approach is not in any meaningful way yet. And even if it could, the purpose of the book is starting a conversation. So you want your words and your framework and your language, because eventually it's going to end up in a phone call and people want to meet the person that they read. So, as far as sales goes, there's a number of just scroll through Instagram for a moment and there's a number of kind of lead closing tools or AI booking tools. That, to me, falls into the same category, at least at the moment of there's no silver bullet, and if you're trying to use a tool as a silver bullet, then it's a highway to failure. Being in the trenches, obviously more than I am do you see people asking the same questions, looking for shortcuts. \n\nTim: So I see, sorry about that, let me kill this phone. So I see a lot of people that think AI is going to be the second coming and it's not. I think the word you used is it's a tool. Too many people put too much stock into AI and when they do, ai is no longer a tool. It kind of makes them look like a tool, if you know what I mean, because AI is good but it has its limitations. I get targeted a lot. I don't has its limitations. I get targeted a lot I don't know why, but I get targeted a lot and 90% of it is really seriously. Did anybody even look at this? I mean, it's 80%, really good, and then it's 20%. No, I'm not a female living in Australia, so you kind of miss the target there, right? So it's just one arrow in the quiver. \n\nStuart: Right. I think that 80-20 analogy works perfectly well because it can amplify and give you an 80% advantage on the things that you're doing. But trying to get it to 100% and missing the 20% just puts a nail in the coffin of the whole message. Because we use the analogy of. We have another podcast called More Cheese, less Whiskers that Dean does and the premise of that name is a customer is a little bit like a mouse heading towards the cheese and they're all in and enthusiastic about getting to the cheese. \n\nBut if there's even a hint of whiskers of overly commercial intent or misaligned objectives, then it's run first and maybe come back later. So the hint of whiskers it's the same in that ai model. It's too easy, for if you're trying to just get a push and play type result, it kind of misses the mark. Um, we were talking now about the types of of organization, or we spoke earlier about the types of organizations that aren't the best fit, the type of organizations that you work really well with, clearly these partner type organizations, rather than the paddlers, the people who are in it for the long run. Is there anything else that kind of brings those companies together, any kind of similarities in the gut in the people who you work best with. \n\nTim: You know, I would tell you so in my world it's all going to be, you know, b2b. It's all more complex selling. You know, in the B2B world there's some people that it's, you know, one call to close. I don't know what that is right. We're not doing mufflers, we're not doing roofing, so it's all B2B and it's typically a more complex, longer term. \n\nA lot of the clients I'm dealing with are trying to figure out how do I proactively grow my business. You know, way too many sales organizations today, stuart, have become reactive sales organizations. So they're waiting for that phone to ring, they're waiting for that email to show up. So they're waiting for that phone to ring, they're waiting for that email to show up. They're waiting for somebody to hit them up on social media, right. And too many salespeople have become really good account managers, and it's really important to be a good account manager. \n\nI'm all over account management, but that's just one part of the equation. Right, you got to be able to service and maintain the installed base. You got to do account management, but you also have to spend part of every day, or every week at a minimum, proactively going out and trying to have new conversations, either inside of existing accounts or have new conversations with new logos, and salespeople don't want to do that because they don't know how to do it. And if you don't know how to do something, then you're faced with a lot of rejection, right, and nobody likes rejection. So you know they show up the next day and it's like well, I could spend my eight hours servicing the installed base who know me, love me and trust me? Or I could spend six hours servicing the installed base and then two hours trying to knock on new doors. Nah, I'd rather not do that. And again, you can maintain a business, I believe, by just servicing the installed base. \n\nBut what if 10, 20, or 30% of your rep's time was focused on really going out and acquiring new conversations, acquiring new logos? That's where you get the logarithmic effect is man, you've got to, you got to do both. Right, you got to maintain what's there, but you got to go. You got to go find somebody different. Because whether we want to believe it or not, one day every client wakes up and says you know what, I want to go in a different direction. That's just a part of life. And so if your pipeline is full of like, just three different companies and one day that one of those three decides to go in a different direction, you've just lost a third. Simple math. You've just lost a third of your funnel. Well now, what are you going to do Now? Using the analogy of the farm, this is like waking up in the fall and saying, oh crap, I want to crop Now what do I do? \n\nWell, it's like well, you write this year off and you get ready for next year. That's the only thing you can do. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such a great reminder that even when in times of good, that's the time to plant new seeds, not in times when things are getting a little bit desperate because you just run out of runway or options, I think for the audiences that are listening, the majority of people have kind of expressed an interest in writing a book as a lead generation tool, so that I'm assuming that some of the other organizations that you work with have done something similar, whether it's actually a book or material information that they're sharing with people, that transition from someone raising their hand to taking that first call. I think that gives some people a little bit of reticence about how they make that transition or start to introduce a conversation above just passively delivering stuff. Do you have any advice or pointers for people kind of taking that step? \n\nTim: Yeah, don't pitch probe the number one thing I see I shouldn't say it's the number one thing One of the top things I see is a prospective client raises their hands and says, okay, I'm kind of interested, I'd like to learn more, and then people just want to show up and throw up. Right, it's the spray and pray mentality of let me tell you. Let me tell you how great we are. Let me tell you how diverse we are. Let me tell you how great we are. Nobody gives a rip. So the hardest thing for most people to get their head around is once somebody raises their hand and expresses an interest. This is where the work starts and you got to say, wow, man, I really I'm excited that you've expressed this interest. Tell me more. Why are you interested? Why is this important to you? What have you tried before? Why did it not work? \n\nAssuming this would work, what it would mean to you? Are there others that have a stake in this? If I gave you a magic wand and you could design the perfect solution, what would that perfect solution look like? I mean, you've got to have this whole conversation where you've got to let that other party define for you. This is exactly what I'm looking for. Once we understand exactly what they're looking for, now we can take our products and our services and we can position it accordingly. \n\nRight, if the client really doesn't give a rip, what color your solution is, why are you spending so much time talking about that? Your solution's blue, right. You're demonstrating that you didn't listen and you're wasting their time, and nobody has a bunch of free time. So, yeah, the number one tip is don't sell, just ask questions. Ask questions. You got to pretend you're a reporter for the newspaper who, why, where, when, what else you know? Just you've got to drill down, until you got to drill down so much that if you went home that night and had a cup of coffee with your spouse or your partner, you should be able to relay the story back Right. \n\nAnd the story shouldn't be yeah, talk to this guy today and he wants a widget. That's not the story shouldn't be yeah, talk to this guy today and he wants a widget. That's not the story. The story should be hey, this organization raised their hand and they're interested in a widget. And what I found to be fascinating is that they've done this and this is how the widget would play, and this is why the widget's important to them, and these are all the people that would benefit from having a new widget right. You got to be able to tell that story, and if you can't tell the story, it's way too early for you to be selling. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that's actually such a great point because, even like I've been doing this long enough now that I should know better. But I enthusiastically get carried away because I think that the majority of people that I speak to should be using a book in their funnel, whether or not they do it with us, but just to be able to share their ideas. So enthusiastically get carried away in sharing that idea with people at the expense of drilling into the why as much as it should do. So it's a great reminder that not only does it take the pressure off asking probing questions it's there's no sales intent to that, it's you're not actually dealing with the rejection that you mentioned before, so it takes some of the pressure off but also to be able to tailor that enthusiasm. Not necessarily don't be enthusiastic, but you're right if no, if I'm excited that the cover is blue and they don't like blue, then that would be good to know beforehand, regardless of the sale, just to be able to talk to them about something that they're more excited in. \n\nTim: Yeah, I mean, you know the cover is blue, there's nothing you can do about it, but you don't need to go on about how blue your cover is right. I mean, again, you're never going to have the perfect solution. There's no such thing. But only through having a complete due diligence are we able to really say okay, you know, these are the hundred things that this client thinks are really important, or these are the 10 things the client thinks are really important, and out of those 10, there's seven we do really well. Those would be the seven I'd really want to focus on and and continue to advance the conversation until the client's like okay, you know, that's pretty good. And then, in complete disclosure, you go okay, listen, I know you love those seven, but there are three that we haven't talked about and three that we don't do really well. And I want to make sure you got your head around that before we get to the next step. \n\nStuart: Yeah, which that brings back to the partner point of you know that if you know that you're going to be checking in with people down the road, you want this to be a long term relationship. You don't want any nasty surprises. The whole point is doing this in partnership. \n\nTim: Yeah, yeah, because you know what, anybody can get the first sale, that's, I shouldn't say anybody. Getting the first sale is much easier. Getting the second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth sale, that's much harder. And you only do that if you do the first sale really well. \n\nStuart:Right. That's one of the things I like about this business is we've done a. I mean we could definitely do more, but we've done a nice number of second, third, fourth books down the track. Once people have got the first one out of their system and are seeing how to use it to be able to then think about from a campaign perspective rather than a bestseller perspective. Think about these tools is starting these conversations. It's nice when that happens, but we could definitely do more to more to encourage that, and that probably is from asking better questions. \n\nOne of the other things that springs to mind as well is quite often when we're talking to people about the back cover of their book, we're talking about conversation, starting books. The back cover isn't to sell the book. The back cover is to present the next step. So we're often talking about next steps as being for the people who are just broadly interested but not yet interested, consume more information and then, at the bottom of the option, the most committed, it's get started now or whatever that first step is. \n\nBut this middle step of those people who are more interested but not yet interested or don't have the relationship enough to raise their hand and jump on a call. It's what's that middle step? So we're often talking about things like scorecards or white papers or assessments, but actually I really like what you were saying and doubling down on this idea of probing for more questions. That middle step is the perfect opportunity to do that because it adds value by orchestrating useful questions but also the information that you're getting back Very useful. So, yeah, thank you, I'll steal that and I'll give you credit as I tell other people. \n\nTim: Well, I don't know if I deserve the credit. You know, if you're in sales and you don't do that, your kids start getting skinny really quick, and that's when you start to figure it out. \n\nStuart:So Right yeah, necessities of the mother in prevention. \n\nTim: It certainly is. \n\nStuart:I'm super appreciative of your time and I know you're busy. I'm glad that we got this on the calendar. I'm really excited to share this with people. I want to make sure that they've got opportunity to find out more about you and what it is that you do. As I said, the organizations that we've worked with and the people on the list span the remit from small companies to larger companies, so all of them have got some sales capability in there somewhere that they could benefit from what you do. So where's a good place for people to go? \n\nTim: Well, there's a couple of places, depending on how intimate you want to get. If you don't want to get that intimate but you like these kinds of ideas and insights, then I'd connect with me on LinkedIn Because, like I said, three times a week I'm pushing content on LinkedIn. Most of it's short form video two minute tip with Tim on prospecting, qualifying, presenting, building better relationships, handling objections right All those things that go into becoming a good salesperson. For those that want to go a step deeper, go out to the website and check out the website. Timwackel.com, t-i-m-w-a-c-k-e-l, timwackel.com and there's a lot of free resources out there. You got to peek and poke a little bit, but that would be a real, appropriate next step. \n\nStuart:Fantastic. Well, I'll make sure that we put links into those as well. So if people are listening to a podcast player or if they visit the website, there'll just be a link there both to the LinkedIn profile and to the website. And, as I said before, I highly recommend people going across. Tim's got a stack of resources in there and I think this model, this methodology, just ties in so nicely with the approach that we're preaching all the time. But your point of view is obviously much more focused on the sales and the execution and we do the little piece that we do, but it really does tie in quite well. It's a nice mix, tim. I appreciate it. I know everyone listening will get a lot from this call. So thanks for the time and then look forward to checking in with you in the future. \n\nTim: All right, stuart, thank you. Thank you, bye-bye now. ","content_html":"\n\n
We all have a sales role. Whether selling to clients, team members, or employees, the opportunity to improve our skills in this area can be hugely beneficial.
\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with sales expert Tim Wackel about what it means to be a successful salesperson.
\n\nTim shares how his engineering background sparked a passion to focus less on individual transactions and more on the outcomes of the human connections behind every interaction.
\n\nWe explore his philosophy that true sales mastery is an art that requires patience and care to understand clients' needs at a deep level. He offers a candid perspective on cultivating sales skills.
\n\nTim's experience with salespeople across industries leads to some great examples and techniques we can all use.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/168
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Tim Wackel:
\nWebsite: Tim Wackel
\nLinkedIn: Tim Wackel
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Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today super excited because we're sharing this conversation with Tim Wackel. Is it Wackel or Wackel? I suddenly thought I tripped over a name. I started today by forgetting three people's names on calls, so obviously I should have been more caffeinated.
\n\nTim: I do it all the time.
\n\nStuart: So, yeah, super excited today because we're sharing this conversation with Tim. Tim and I were introduced through a mutual friend a month or so ago and what really stood out and why I wanted to get on the call today is not only is Tim using a book in his lead generation process, but his approach to business development and his background in sales really I think resonates with everyone that's listening here in sales, really, I think resonates with everyone that's listening here, because ultimately, we're writing books to be in conversations with potential clients and that inevitably leads to a sales conversation. Tim, why don't we start give people a bit of a background on you and your, because you've got quite an illustrious history.
\n\nTim: Well, I don't know if it's illustrious, so I'm kind of an accidental salesperson, stuart. At university I studied electrical engineering and when I got out of school I was an electrical engineer but was quickly approached by the management team and they really thought you know, maybe my skills would be better used in a technical sales role. And I don't know that I necessarily had skills that would lend me to be successful at a technical sales role, or if I was just really bad at soldering circuit boards. I think it was more the latter and less the former, but I started that journey almost four decades ago and figured it out. A lot of people and myself at that time thought that selling was dirty, slimy, manipulative, and it took me a while. But I got my head around that. No, selling, when done correctly, is an art and a science and you're genuinely out to try to help people do things they don't know they can do.
\n\nStuart: That's the key term, isn't it? When it's done properly, there's good and bad. It's all under the spectrum and it's certainly the bad that gets a lot of the heat and light and people kind of default to thinking that way when they don't know about it. It gets a lot of the heat and light and people kind of default to thinking that way when they don't know about it. But at the end of the day, we're trying to help people make a decision that's best for them and really kind of advance what they're trying to do. So I think it's a superpower. It can be used for good or bad.
\n\nTim: And unfortunately or fortunately for me a lot more people use it for bad than good, and I don't think they're purposeful on using it for bad. They just don't know any better.
\n\nStuart: Right. Actually that's a great point, that idea of not knowing any better. I think a lot of time people are almost like you were, to a certain degree thrust into the role and it's not necessarily something that they're looking for. It tends to be the more seasoned professional that's in it because they've developed a love for it. I think at the junior end of the spectrum it's a little bit more sink or swim and the pressure to make sure that you don't sink too quickly leads to maybe unaligned outcomes.
\n\nOn that sales approach and this idea of if I marry up the thought of the conversation, starting books that we help people to create, so identifying the need, the question and then delivering value to start that conversation, that I'm guessing starts to marry in with work that you do and helping teams to both dial in their sales strategies and tactics but also the development and the presentations that they ultimately give to people. What if people are listening here, thinking about starting that conversation? What is it about the journey and the things that they need to know? That makes that a win for everyone, If that's not too broad a question.
\n\nTim: Well, you know, it might be, stuart, so I'd be more than happy to drill down on it with you, but, at the end of the day, if what you do, if the service you provide or the product that you offer is not a good fit and doesn't have a real ROI for your client or your prospect, then you need to get the hell out of there. You need to live for another day, and if you've got that kind of mindset, and if you have that kind of mindset, I believe you can be very successful. Now, that's the good news. The bad news is, though, if you have that mindset, you're going to have dry weeks, you're going to have dry months, you're going to have dry quarters right, if you want to make $120,000 a year and you want to do it $10,000 a month, you probably shouldn't be in sales, right, because that's just not the way it works. Again, if you've got the right intent, it all works out in the end, but it's not a short-term play, it's a long-term play.
\n\nStuart: How do you find that marries up with teams? So the work that you do with sales teams there's a pressure in a work environment to meet quotas and targets. Is that a tension that's difficult to balance out between the people who are trying to live in a customer-centric world as much as possible versus having to meet quotas?
\n\nTim: It can be. I would tell you, stuart, that if a client called me, or a prospective client called me, and it was all about making the number, and they wanted to make the number this week, this month, this quarter, I'm probably not the right guy. Eventually, there's going to be so much pressure to perform that the team, quite frankly, is not going to be open to new ideas. If I come in and I'm hosting a one-day, quite frankly, is not going to be open to new ideas, right, if I come in and I'm hosting a one-day workshop, people are not going to pay attention because after about an hour they're checking their phones, they're checking their voicemail, they're checking social media because they've got to go kill dinner. So so oftentimes when I work with clients, it's like hey, listen, here's the way this thing works is, you know, we're going to work with your team for a full day or a half a day or two days, whatever the case is, but we've got to give those seeds a chance to grow.
\n\nYou know, I kind of grew up in an agricultural surrounding and you know my dad didn't wake up in the fall and say, oh crap, I need a crop. I'm going to go out and plant. Right. You plant in the spring, fertilize, you till, you need sunshine, you need moisture, and then in the fall you have a crop. And it's the same way with selling and sales skills. You just you can't flip a switch and get good. It's a skill. I love to play golf and golf is the same way, you know. Hey, I really want to be good at golf, so I'm going to go take a lesson and now I'm good at golf. No, you're not. You know it's.
\n\nStuart:It takes a long time to develop, uh, the skills, the mindset and the attitude to be successful, right? One of the podcasts just before this was with a friend of ours called dave depaula, who wrote a book. So they have a golf training aid that helps break bad habits on the swing. So definitely not my own expertise at all, but he was saying similar things. If you want to be good at it, you kind of practice, but then you need to learn, unlearn all of the bad habits and then you can go forwards, which I guess is there's a correlation there with sales training as well.
\n\nIt's easy to pick up bad habits just from the pressure of the environment and what everyone else is doing yeah I think what I liked about the approach of the or the agricultural analogy and the approach of what you do, this idea of sowing a crop that yields over the long call. From the book perspective, we talk about a very similar strategy of there's no such thing as dead leads. You don't know when the day is for the person. The other person's in control of whether they say yes, our job is to identify them in the first place, which is what we use the books for, but then nurture that relationship over the long run until today is the day for them. That tension between needing to go out and make the kill versus being in it for the long haul is that something that a lot of people struggle with as well? Either because they're just conditioned to think about it as, like the Glenn Gary, glenn Ross type, always be closing, as opposed to this longer term cycle?
\n\nTim: Yeah, I guess the easiest way for me to answer that is that's where you get the good sales reps versus the bad sales reps. That's where you get the slimy, manipulative, pushy sales rep versus a sales rep. That's really in it for the long play. So the hey, you know. You know, first place is a set of steak knives and second place is I fire you that again.
\n\nI don't play in that environment because that's that's not what selling should be, and so obviously you know then that begs the question. I don't know if it begs the question. Ultimately, it takes time to build that book of business. A guy I sold with years and years ago used to say selling is like a flywheel. Right, and you go up to a flywheel that is static.
\n\nIt takes a lot of time, energy and effort to get that bad boy to start spinning. Right, you got to really put in the work, you got to put in the effort, you got to put in the energy. But once you get that bad boy spinning, then all you got to do every once in a while is just give it a little more energy, just give it a little more energy. And I think it's a wonderful analogy to what selling is like. So you know, you hire somebody, you bring somebody in or you put somebody in a brand new territory. To expect results in 30 or 60 or even 90 days, I think is typically in most situations, unrealistic. You've got to have a certain amount of time to develop that book of business and then, once you develop that book of business, then again you just got to keep the energy going.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that approach of keeping the energy going. The kind of line between sales and marketing is always kind of defined by definition and everyone's got a slightly different perspective on it the more long-term nurturing I think again, not being in that area of business, so looking at it from an outsider, you kind of have the perception that sales people think of the short term and marketers think of the long term. But understanding that it's the long term that makes the sales successful, the people who are most successful in that space, is that more from that long-term nurturing and checking in with no real a genuine interest in the clients rather than necessarily a sales intent? Is it much more about relationship building rather than kind of responding to a particular activity?
\n\nTim: I believe. So I think salespeople kind of fall into one of two camps, that you're either a peddler or your partner.
\n\nPeddlers show up when there's need budget and timeframe. Right, A peddler is there to sell you something. A partner is not. A partner will sell you something and then, in 60 days, follow up and say, hey, how's it working? What do you like best about our widget? If I gave you a magic wand and there's one thing about our widget that you could change, what would you change and why? Right, A partner is there because they want their client to be successful, so they will have conversations and they will show up even though there's no food in the trough. The peddler only shows up if there's food in the trough. If there's need budget, timeframe, I'm there because I'm a peddler. Partners are more like hey, listen, I may not have a solution for you today, but I'd just love to know more about what you guys have got going on, what direction you're trying to get to and what are some of the current obstacles you're facing. Completely different conversations.
\n\nStuart: I think that's the great thing, that's what resonated when we first spoke a couple of weeks ago this idea of being in conversation and adding value and nurturing over the long term until an opportunity presents itself that's mutually beneficial. There's definitely an element of that in the things that we do. So creating a book isn't something that the peddlers are interested so much because it's too long-term based, Whereas the partner approach, as you describe it's much more around adding that value from the perspective that we come to in terms of writing the book. At least adding that value in the perspective that we come to in terms of writing the book, at least adding that value in the thing that identifies the invisible leads to begin with and gets people to raise their hand, but is really the starting point of the conversation. And the book is never a build it and they will come type thing or you're very rarely converting people with the book, but it's starting that conversation.
\n\nHow do you? Not secrets or magic tricks, but the challenge that some people have is okay, I can envisage collecting all of these leads and to a certain degree I can imagine staying in touch with them, but the practicalities of staying in touch or the mental models to remember to stay in touch. Are there any pointers that you have for people so that becomes top of mind rather than kind of day-to-day and peddler type activity, pointers that you have for people so that becomes top of mind rather than kind of day-to-day and peddler type activity?
\n\nTim: Yeah, you know, consistency matters. You know 1% every day. What's the old saying If you just get 1% better every day, in 72 days you're twice as good as you are right now. So you know, it's not about blotting out the sun or boiling the ocean, but it's about hey, what can I do to make sure that the people I want to do business with know that I'm here and that I'm adding value? You know, in my own practice, every week we're pushing short form videos, two minute tips with Tim right. We're pushing that to over 30,000 people. I don't have 30,000 people calling me right now because they got this morning's tip right, but out of the 30,000, maybe we got 30 that got that tip and they're like golly, you know what? This is a great idea and my sales team really should get their head around this. Or, I'd like to learn more. I'd like to discuss this with Tim. So Again, it's about planting seeds.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and that's such a great point, isn't it? I think it's easy to underestimate the effectiveness of small, incremental but consistent activities. There's so many things Like you think of social media, the successes going viral when the likelihood of that ever happening is so slim in the first place, and even the effectiveness of that is much smaller than just a consistent, small amount of outreach and the overhead of writing or recording a long video. It's a headache, it takes some setup, but doing a quick selfie type thing, capturing something in the moment, being able to share that quickly and tools have definitely improved that even in the last five years, even since the pandemic the tools that are available it's really improved it. We didn't talk about this beforehand, so you might not have a particular opinion on it. I'm just thinking about tools, the amount that AI is available to support people at the moment. I think this is another example of things can be used for good or things can be used for bad.
\n\nAnd as far as book writing goes, we'll have some people that say, oh well, can't AI do that for me? And our approach is not in any meaningful way yet. And even if it could, the purpose of the book is starting a conversation. So you want your words and your framework and your language, because eventually it's going to end up in a phone call and people want to meet the person that they read. So, as far as sales goes, there's a number of just scroll through Instagram for a moment and there's a number of kind of lead closing tools or AI booking tools. That, to me, falls into the same category, at least at the moment of there's no silver bullet, and if you're trying to use a tool as a silver bullet, then it's a highway to failure. Being in the trenches, obviously more than I am do you see people asking the same questions, looking for shortcuts.
\n\nTim: So I see, sorry about that, let me kill this phone. So I see a lot of people that think AI is going to be the second coming and it's not. I think the word you used is it's a tool. Too many people put too much stock into AI and when they do, ai is no longer a tool. It kind of makes them look like a tool, if you know what I mean, because AI is good but it has its limitations. I get targeted a lot. I don't has its limitations. I get targeted a lot I don't know why, but I get targeted a lot and 90% of it is really seriously. Did anybody even look at this? I mean, it's 80%, really good, and then it's 20%. No, I'm not a female living in Australia, so you kind of miss the target there, right? So it's just one arrow in the quiver.
\n\nStuart: Right. I think that 80-20 analogy works perfectly well because it can amplify and give you an 80% advantage on the things that you're doing. But trying to get it to 100% and missing the 20% just puts a nail in the coffin of the whole message. Because we use the analogy of. We have another podcast called More Cheese, less Whiskers that Dean does and the premise of that name is a customer is a little bit like a mouse heading towards the cheese and they're all in and enthusiastic about getting to the cheese.
\n\nBut if there's even a hint of whiskers of overly commercial intent or misaligned objectives, then it's run first and maybe come back later. So the hint of whiskers it's the same in that ai model. It's too easy, for if you're trying to just get a push and play type result, it kind of misses the mark. Um, we were talking now about the types of of organization, or we spoke earlier about the types of organizations that aren't the best fit, the type of organizations that you work really well with, clearly these partner type organizations, rather than the paddlers, the people who are in it for the long run. Is there anything else that kind of brings those companies together, any kind of similarities in the gut in the people who you work best with.
\n\nTim: You know, I would tell you so in my world it's all going to be, you know, b2b. It's all more complex selling. You know, in the B2B world there's some people that it's, you know, one call to close. I don't know what that is right. We're not doing mufflers, we're not doing roofing, so it's all B2B and it's typically a more complex, longer term.
\n\nA lot of the clients I'm dealing with are trying to figure out how do I proactively grow my business. You know, way too many sales organizations today, stuart, have become reactive sales organizations. So they're waiting for that phone to ring, they're waiting for that email to show up. So they're waiting for that phone to ring, they're waiting for that email to show up. They're waiting for somebody to hit them up on social media, right. And too many salespeople have become really good account managers, and it's really important to be a good account manager.
\n\nI'm all over account management, but that's just one part of the equation. Right, you got to be able to service and maintain the installed base. You got to do account management, but you also have to spend part of every day, or every week at a minimum, proactively going out and trying to have new conversations, either inside of existing accounts or have new conversations with new logos, and salespeople don't want to do that because they don't know how to do it. And if you don't know how to do something, then you're faced with a lot of rejection, right, and nobody likes rejection. So you know they show up the next day and it's like well, I could spend my eight hours servicing the installed base who know me, love me and trust me? Or I could spend six hours servicing the installed base and then two hours trying to knock on new doors. Nah, I'd rather not do that. And again, you can maintain a business, I believe, by just servicing the installed base.
\n\nBut what if 10, 20, or 30% of your rep's time was focused on really going out and acquiring new conversations, acquiring new logos? That's where you get the logarithmic effect is man, you've got to, you got to do both. Right, you got to maintain what's there, but you got to go. You got to go find somebody different. Because whether we want to believe it or not, one day every client wakes up and says you know what, I want to go in a different direction. That's just a part of life. And so if your pipeline is full of like, just three different companies and one day that one of those three decides to go in a different direction, you've just lost a third. Simple math. You've just lost a third of your funnel. Well now, what are you going to do Now? Using the analogy of the farm, this is like waking up in the fall and saying, oh crap, I want to crop Now what do I do?
\n\nWell, it's like well, you write this year off and you get ready for next year. That's the only thing you can do.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such a great reminder that even when in times of good, that's the time to plant new seeds, not in times when things are getting a little bit desperate because you just run out of runway or options, I think for the audiences that are listening, the majority of people have kind of expressed an interest in writing a book as a lead generation tool, so that I'm assuming that some of the other organizations that you work with have done something similar, whether it's actually a book or material information that they're sharing with people, that transition from someone raising their hand to taking that first call. I think that gives some people a little bit of reticence about how they make that transition or start to introduce a conversation above just passively delivering stuff. Do you have any advice or pointers for people kind of taking that step?
\n\nTim: Yeah, don't pitch probe the number one thing I see I shouldn't say it's the number one thing One of the top things I see is a prospective client raises their hands and says, okay, I'm kind of interested, I'd like to learn more, and then people just want to show up and throw up. Right, it's the spray and pray mentality of let me tell you. Let me tell you how great we are. Let me tell you how diverse we are. Let me tell you how great we are. Nobody gives a rip. So the hardest thing for most people to get their head around is once somebody raises their hand and expresses an interest. This is where the work starts and you got to say, wow, man, I really I'm excited that you've expressed this interest. Tell me more. Why are you interested? Why is this important to you? What have you tried before? Why did it not work?
\n\nAssuming this would work, what it would mean to you? Are there others that have a stake in this? If I gave you a magic wand and you could design the perfect solution, what would that perfect solution look like? I mean, you've got to have this whole conversation where you've got to let that other party define for you. This is exactly what I'm looking for. Once we understand exactly what they're looking for, now we can take our products and our services and we can position it accordingly.
\n\nRight, if the client really doesn't give a rip, what color your solution is, why are you spending so much time talking about that? Your solution's blue, right. You're demonstrating that you didn't listen and you're wasting their time, and nobody has a bunch of free time. So, yeah, the number one tip is don't sell, just ask questions. Ask questions. You got to pretend you're a reporter for the newspaper who, why, where, when, what else you know? Just you've got to drill down, until you got to drill down so much that if you went home that night and had a cup of coffee with your spouse or your partner, you should be able to relay the story back Right.
\n\nAnd the story shouldn't be yeah, talk to this guy today and he wants a widget. That's not the story shouldn't be yeah, talk to this guy today and he wants a widget. That's not the story. The story should be hey, this organization raised their hand and they're interested in a widget. And what I found to be fascinating is that they've done this and this is how the widget would play, and this is why the widget's important to them, and these are all the people that would benefit from having a new widget right. You got to be able to tell that story, and if you can't tell the story, it's way too early for you to be selling.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that's actually such a great point because, even like I've been doing this long enough now that I should know better. But I enthusiastically get carried away because I think that the majority of people that I speak to should be using a book in their funnel, whether or not they do it with us, but just to be able to share their ideas. So enthusiastically get carried away in sharing that idea with people at the expense of drilling into the why as much as it should do. So it's a great reminder that not only does it take the pressure off asking probing questions it's there's no sales intent to that, it's you're not actually dealing with the rejection that you mentioned before, so it takes some of the pressure off but also to be able to tailor that enthusiasm. Not necessarily don't be enthusiastic, but you're right if no, if I'm excited that the cover is blue and they don't like blue, then that would be good to know beforehand, regardless of the sale, just to be able to talk to them about something that they're more excited in.
\n\nTim: Yeah, I mean, you know the cover is blue, there's nothing you can do about it, but you don't need to go on about how blue your cover is right. I mean, again, you're never going to have the perfect solution. There's no such thing. But only through having a complete due diligence are we able to really say okay, you know, these are the hundred things that this client thinks are really important, or these are the 10 things the client thinks are really important, and out of those 10, there's seven we do really well. Those would be the seven I'd really want to focus on and and continue to advance the conversation until the client's like okay, you know, that's pretty good. And then, in complete disclosure, you go okay, listen, I know you love those seven, but there are three that we haven't talked about and three that we don't do really well. And I want to make sure you got your head around that before we get to the next step.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, which that brings back to the partner point of you know that if you know that you're going to be checking in with people down the road, you want this to be a long term relationship. You don't want any nasty surprises. The whole point is doing this in partnership.
\n\nTim: Yeah, yeah, because you know what, anybody can get the first sale, that's, I shouldn't say anybody. Getting the first sale is much easier. Getting the second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth sale, that's much harder. And you only do that if you do the first sale really well.
\n\nStuart:Right. That's one of the things I like about this business is we've done a. I mean we could definitely do more, but we've done a nice number of second, third, fourth books down the track. Once people have got the first one out of their system and are seeing how to use it to be able to then think about from a campaign perspective rather than a bestseller perspective. Think about these tools is starting these conversations. It's nice when that happens, but we could definitely do more to more to encourage that, and that probably is from asking better questions.
\n\nOne of the other things that springs to mind as well is quite often when we're talking to people about the back cover of their book, we're talking about conversation, starting books. The back cover isn't to sell the book. The back cover is to present the next step. So we're often talking about next steps as being for the people who are just broadly interested but not yet interested, consume more information and then, at the bottom of the option, the most committed, it's get started now or whatever that first step is.
\n\nBut this middle step of those people who are more interested but not yet interested or don't have the relationship enough to raise their hand and jump on a call. It's what's that middle step? So we're often talking about things like scorecards or white papers or assessments, but actually I really like what you were saying and doubling down on this idea of probing for more questions. That middle step is the perfect opportunity to do that because it adds value by orchestrating useful questions but also the information that you're getting back Very useful. So, yeah, thank you, I'll steal that and I'll give you credit as I tell other people.
\n\nTim: Well, I don't know if I deserve the credit. You know, if you're in sales and you don't do that, your kids start getting skinny really quick, and that's when you start to figure it out.
\n\nStuart:So Right yeah, necessities of the mother in prevention.
\n\nTim: It certainly is.
\n\nStuart:I'm super appreciative of your time and I know you're busy. I'm glad that we got this on the calendar. I'm really excited to share this with people. I want to make sure that they've got opportunity to find out more about you and what it is that you do. As I said, the organizations that we've worked with and the people on the list span the remit from small companies to larger companies, so all of them have got some sales capability in there somewhere that they could benefit from what you do. So where's a good place for people to go?
\n\nTim: Well, there's a couple of places, depending on how intimate you want to get. If you don't want to get that intimate but you like these kinds of ideas and insights, then I'd connect with me on LinkedIn Because, like I said, three times a week I'm pushing content on LinkedIn. Most of it's short form video two minute tip with Tim on prospecting, qualifying, presenting, building better relationships, handling objections right All those things that go into becoming a good salesperson. For those that want to go a step deeper, go out to the website and check out the website. Timwackel.com, t-i-m-w-a-c-k-e-l, timwackel.com and there's a lot of free resources out there. You got to peek and poke a little bit, but that would be a real, appropriate next step.
\n\nStuart:Fantastic. Well, I'll make sure that we put links into those as well. So if people are listening to a podcast player or if they visit the website, there'll just be a link there both to the LinkedIn profile and to the website. And, as I said before, I highly recommend people going across. Tim's got a stack of resources in there and I think this model, this methodology, just ties in so nicely with the approach that we're preaching all the time. But your point of view is obviously much more focused on the sales and the execution and we do the little piece that we do, but it really does tie in quite well. It's a nice mix, tim. I appreciate it. I know everyone listening will get a lot from this call. So thanks for the time and then look forward to checking in with you in the future.
\n\nTim: All right, stuart, thank you. Thank you, bye-bye now.
","summary":"We all have a sales role. Whether selling to clients, team members, or employees, the opportunity to improve our skills in this area can be hugely beneficial.\r\n\r\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with sales expert Tim Wackel about what it means to be a successful salesperson. \r\n\r\nTim shares how his engineering background sparked a passion to focus less on individual transactions and more on the outcomes of the human connections behind every interaction.\r\n\r\nWe explore his philosophy that true sales mastery is an art that requires patience and care to understand clients' needs at a deep level. He offers a candid perspective on cultivating sales skills.\r\n\r\nTim's experience with salespeople across industries leads to some great examples and techniques we can all use.","date_published":"2024-05-30T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/f553623f-b640-4638-9181-53c8ad19e4ea.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21789947,"duration_in_seconds":1805}]},{"id":"74a257b7-252b-484c-a5e0-fd3d30b4dedb","title":"Ep167: Legacy and Leads with Dona Baker and Jeff Polovick","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/167","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Dona Baker and Jeff Polovick about their experience writing books that serve very different purposes and how this led to a whole new service.\n\nJeff and Dona share a connection through Jeff's company, Driving Force, where Jeff's motivation for writing his book, Why Can't We?, was to document the challenges, decision-making processes, and lessons learned throughout his career.\n\nDona, who worked with Jeff for 12 years, reflects on her learning experiences and how they shaped her book, The Friction-Free Entrepreneur, that talks about the opportunities to maximize your energy and strengths as an entrepreneur by partnering with someone who can do the stuff you can't.\n\nWe discuss the need for storytelling, how she incorporates it into her work to engage readers, and how working through the ideas for the book led to the creation of their latest strategic HR company, Rhealize.\n\nThis is a great conversation and really highlights one of the unexpected benefits of writing a book where the focus of thinking about your ideas can reveal bigger opportunities.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Stuart Bell hosts a conversation with Jeff Polovick and Dona Baker, discussing the creation and growth of successful businesses and the lessons learned along the way.\n Jeff shares his experience of building a company over 46 years and writing his book \"Why Can't We?\" to document his business journey and the valuable lessons he's learned.\n Dona provides insight into her transition from government to the free enterprise system and the importance of organizational roles and a balanced team in entrepreneurship.\n We examine the role of storytelling in entrepreneurship, with Jeff using his book to mentor and guide new team members, and Dona expressing the importance of sharing the full spectrum of entrepreneurial experiences.\n The episode discusses the nuances of transitioning from a hands-on leadership role to a strategic board position, including the significance of coaching and clear job descriptions.\n Jeff and Dona discuss their current project, which reflects the principles they've upheld throughout their careers, aimed at influencing and aiding the next generation of entrepreneurs.\n We delve into how Jeff's and Dona's individual experiences and approaches complement each other, combining visionary thinking with attention to detail and organization.\n Dona talks about her book, \"The Friction Free Entrepreneur,\" and the concept of entrepreneurs partnering with others to leverage their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses.\n The podcast touches on the software platform Jeff and Dona are developing, which aims to improve recruitment processes based on the principles outlined in Donna's book.\n Both guests reflect on the writing process of their respective books, how it has impacted their thinking, and the role these books play in engaging with entrepreneurs and setting up conversations for their current venture.\n\n\n \n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/167\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nDona Baker:\nWebsite: Rhealize \nBook: The Friction-Free Entrepreneur\nLinkedIn: Dona Baker\n\nJeff Polovick:\nBook: Why Can't We\nLinkedIn: Jeff Polovick\n\n \n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n \n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Dona Baker and Jeff Polovick. Guys, how are you doing? Thank you. \n\nDona: Yeah, very well, thank you. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. I'm excited to share this story with people. The podcast recently we've shared a lot of author stories, but just the nature of the scheduling oftentimes it's people who are just finishing the process, whereas you guys had gone through it a little while ago. So I'm excited to share this story with people because you've got a little bit more longevity and have been using the book in a way for longer, which I think will give people more insights into what happens over the long term rather than the short term. Why don't we start off, though, by giving a little bit of a background share with everyone what it is that you guys do, how you know each other, and then we can move into the book part of the conversation. \n\nDona: I'll let you start, jeff, because you were the person that brought me into all this world. \n\nJeff: All right, well, I think. Just a little bit of background. First of all, I started a business 46 years ago. It's a vehicle rental, leasing and sales business Started from scratch and I had been in the industry for about five years prior to starting it, so I knew what I wanted to do and I had a firm view on what my values were and how. I thought that customer service was absolutely the most important part of growing the business. I guess very determined Failure was never going to be an option and 46 years later, we have roughly 650 employees. We're in 36 or 37 different locations in Canada and the US. Our sales are in excess of 500 million a year and the company is doing extremely well. I stepped down as the president and CEO eight years ago. I'm still a minority shareholder and I'm on the board of directors. I still care, but not as much as when I owned it all myself. \n\nStuart: So the opportunity to get that balance right. \n\nJeff: That's right. So I spend six months of my year in the Palm Desert, palm Springs area. The other half is in Canada, mostly in the Okanagan, but still many different locations where we have businesses. Edmonton is still home, and so that just sort of gives you a little bit of background. We've had a lot of great opportunities over the years, and what compelled me to write the book was really was for the benefit of my children. \n\nStuart: We have two children. \n\nJeff: They're certainly adults now. \n\nBut when I stepped down as a president and CEO, I really felt that it was important that I share, I guess, some of the life lessons and some of the things that I learned during that time where I was running the business and I think what the format of the 90-minute book concept allowed me to capture what I felt were the most important aspects of the lessons that I'd learned over the years. And now that I've completed the book, it's called why Can't we? And obviously that's one of the questions that was my driving force as we were going along I said why can't we do this? Somebody says you can't do it. Well, here we can. I just have to figure out a way around it. So I think what I did at the end of every chapter I kind of summarized some key bullet points in terms of what I felt that component of the chapter entailed. And both my kids have read it and both of my kids had given me the kind of affirmation saying you know, we didn't realize what you were going through when we were kids growing up. And I said well, that was really the reason why I wanted to write it, because I think quite often, as parents, you want to protect your children from all the hardships that you're going through or at least that was what my or what we tried to do and I think some of those lessons that the kids are running their own business now and not necessarily they're entrepreneurs, but not in the same. They don't have the same sort of views as I do, but the values are very similar. So the book has been a great tool for me to share with other people who are interested in some of the life lessons that I learned along the way and some of the values that I still believe in today. And I think I learned a lot of the things about myself through Strategic Coach, which I know you're very familiar with as well, and so I really felt that was really important. \n\nAlong the way and during the process of building the company, I got to a point where I knew that I had the ideas, but I didn't have the, let's say, the desire to look after all the details that need to be taken care of when you're working on a project, and that's how I actually got introduced to Donna. I had a specific criteria that I was looking for, and when Donna came along, here was a wonderful young lady who had worked in a government organization and I thought to myself, okay, well, she's making a choice to leave that environment to come into a free enterprise system. There's got to be something more to her than just making that decision. And sure enough, I was very pleased to be able to work with Donna for 16 years, and now more obviously since I've left. But what it really did, is it really? \n\nShe brings to the table for me a different way of looking at things. I'm probably more of an ideas person. You know you're bouncing from A to B to C to D to E or an F and whatever, and she kind of is the force that brings it all together and said well, look, let's put it in a more logical, organized fashion. And, quite frankly, that's one of the things that your 90-minute book concept did for me is it helped me to slow down and say, okay, these are the things that are important. And then finding an editor that would challenge me on the ideas that I'd captured in the book. And even still, I thought it was pretty structured, until you have someone review your work and then tell you hey, listen, why is that important? \n\nYou know it's obviously important to you, but why would it be important to me? And all of a sudden it opened up my thinking to say, okay, aha, and that's where the bullets came in. At the end of the chapter you can write the story right about the chapter and what was happening. But then what did you learn from that? And that was the part that I really enjoyed. So I hope that's maybe a little longer than what you wanted to hear, but that's the summary yeah, not at all. \n\nStuart: And that idea that we go through life and the ideas that we've got, particularly in the entrepreneurial realm, where you're not necessarily directly challenged on things if you're the one setting the tone of the organization and pushing out the ideas, it's not always that they're challenged. So to have to question your thinking because it is going on to a page and someone else is doesn't, isn't coming to the page with the same background that you've got to be able to question that, it does help refine those thoughts a little bit more. The interesting exercise even if the outcome wasn't a book, it would still be an interesting exercise to go through, just to think about your thinking a little bit you're right yeah, donna, from your perspective, you guys have worked together for a long time, going through the process and seeing these ideas come together. \n\ndid they all resonate? Or Jeff was saying that the kids hadn't realized some of the background to the stories. Was that the same for you? \n\nDona: So my book is quite different than Jeff's because his was about his journey building a company and all of the characters that were along the way with that a company and all of the characters that were along the way with that. Mine was reflecting on what I had learned working in an entrepreneurial sales organization with Jeff and observing someone who had what I think or has what I think are natural talent for the communication and for strategy and definitely for negotiation, so that this is a person that really gave a good example of how you run an entrepreneurial business. And then how can you make that successful? By partnering with people who can do the stuff that you can't and that is the book that I wrote was the friction free entrepreneur. How do you make for yourself? Do you understand what your qualities are and lean into that? Leverage that by then finding those people that can do the things that you find sap your energies and take your attention away from the work that you do best. \n\nStuart: So I think Jeff had mentioned that when that perfect synergy of finding the gaps that you either can't do or don't want to do or someone's better suited to do. They kind of bring the organization together. From your perspective, on the sharing the stories, was your approach a bit more anecdotal and story-based or more along the ideas of introducing this concept to people who maybe hadn't come across the idea before? \n\nDona: Yes, mine was more around the theory, I would say, or talking about the ideas behind why Jeff was so successful in this partnership or any business, how you could be more successful doing that. And I think if I were to do the book again, I actually would incorporate more story than what I did, especially if it was being marketed to entrepreneurs. These are busy individuals and that they may not necessarily care that much about what the ideology is behind the company and its operation and that kind of thing or even the partnership. And I feel like Jeff's book is very effective because it is a book about story and I think that's for any writer a good thing to remember it's interesting. \n\nStuart:I think I put myself more on the integrator side of the fence rather than the visionary side of the fence, even kind of heading up the organization here. My background and preference is naturally towards the behind the scenes systems rather than the in front of the camera stories. So it's still a struggle for me all of these years later to include those extra elements rather than just talk about the, the facts and the systems and the details. But it, I think you're right, it does give people a opportunity to connect with the person a little bit more or put themselves in the position as it's told through a story, as opposed to just sharing some details. It's Christy who I think you probably worked with through the process. \n\nChristy is pretty good at extracting those stories from people. She's more naturally inclined to that type of thing anyway. And, jeff, as you were talking, it was probably christy who was kind of pulling some of those elements out as well in the process. As you've gone through both of your guests, as you've seen the other person go through the process and seen the end result, the idea of how you're each intending to use the book, you went into the project with particular ideas in mind but did seeing the other person go through the process open your eyes to other opportunities or other audiences that your own individual's books might resonate with? \n\nJeff: Well, I think I continue to use the book and I think the company continues to use the book as an example of what the earlier days were like at Driving Force, and I think the book is used partly as an indoctrination, I think, to some of the new people that are interested. \n\nSome aren't interested and I'm fine with that, but for me, there's lots of people that you meet in your travels that are I've always done work with as a mentor and I know there's a lot, lots of people that you meet in your travels that are I've always done work with as a mentor, and I know there's a lot of young people that I've given the book to that I've said oh, there's some ideas in here that you might find interesting and they they generally do people are quite surprised that it's not a. You know, if you quite often, if you read a book about, success is a journey, it's not a destination, but you quite often they'll read about the things that took place during those 40 years and they're going. It wasn't okay. There were lots of challenges, there were lots of things that you know, there was survival one-on-one, there was survival two-on-one, survival three-on-one. \n\nYou know where you're at a situation where it could have been the end. It could have been the end of the business If things. You're at a situation where it could have been the end of the business if things hadn't turned out the way they did. And it's not always just your ability to make a decision to change the outcome. Quite often fate and luck has a lot to do with it as well timing. But there's still situations where you're in a real tough position, totally sometimes beyond your control, such as the National Energy Program that came into effect in Canada in the early 80s. It just devastated the economy in Western Canada and to survive that, I consider that to be survival 101. And you can do all the things that you need to do from a business standpoint to survive. And then there's other situations that come. So, as I said, it wasn't always the cakewalk. There were lots of ups and downs, but nonetheless we were still moving in the right direction. \n\nStuart: It's interesting. It gives people the behind the scenes of just seeing the success as it is now. It's looking at behind the scenes of the challenges and then lessons to be learned and taken away from your experience of those. It gives people more of an opportunity to see where they are in the current position and just draw from and pull from the various pieces that are out there in the world and try and make their best decision in the moment, but inspired or informed by what other people have gone through. I think if too many people see just the upsides of it, it's kind of like the social mediafication of everything. You kind of only see the glossy end product and it's valuable to see the, the messy under the surface work from from time to time. Donna, what about you in terms of kind of the access to the sharing the book with certain groups of people? Did that idea broaden either from when you started the project or haven't seen the way that jeff and the company are using their version of the book? \n\nDona: I was most interested about collecting my thoughts and then being able to understand, like, what is the aspects of an entrepreneur that need to come together in order for them to be successful. \n\nAnd so you know, just recounting of these. Those early days of his company were perhaps more cowboy, but as he matured and, like as he says, as he learned, there became more structure in that organization, and when I joined the company in 2009, there was a banking crisis going on across North America and a stock market meltdown, and so I watched how he used the discipline of the structure and also this entrepreneurism and some very brave decisions in order to keep the company afloat again during a very challenging time, and so, for me, it was the art and the discipline of the business, that of running that business, that I felt like needed to be documented. And it isn't a story about Jeff's company, about driving force. It's more of a story about what are the things that an entrepreneur needs to balance in order for them to have a robust business, and I didn't just use my own observations about that. There's a lot of references to other people that Simon Sinek, and there's Christopher Gray, who you may be familiar with. \n\nHe's a British psychologist who writes on organizations, so there's people that we have referenced within the book. I feel like the end of the book was the thing that spurred the current business that Jeff and I are working in. We have a consulting business that helps organizations through succession and other transitions. We work with leadership teams in helping them to understand their own makeup and how they can work more productively together and avoid conflicts and these sorts of things, but we also are building a software platform that is helping them to recruit more effectively as well, and those ideas of how that software platform work came out of a distillation process that I used to write the book. \n\nStuart: It was one of the things that we were talking about off as we were scheduling the podcast this idea that, from the ideas that you were able to capture and that extra time to think about the thinking and bring it all together, really jump-started or kick-started a little bit this new organization. How do you have that as was it the seed of an idea going into the project, the book project, or was it really as a process of? Oh, now I've brought all of these things together and something is very clearly coming out of it. Which was it? Chicken and egg kind of? Which came first? \n\nDona: I believe that it was probably the egg that grew the idea. There was some other things that happened after that. Jeff is the first person that gave me an opportunity to work on organizational learning. Before coming into his company, I had been working in government, it's true, and I also worked in other kind of more administrative roles, and they were not aligned with what my interests were. \n\nI really wanted to work in the human resources area. I had that education, I had developed skills in presentation and I knew I wanted to be someone who was heading up learning and development and helping an organization progress that way. So he looked beyond the fact that I hadn't worked in that specifically and allowed me to learn within driving force and to find my way. He's very much a supporter of people learning that way, so long as they, you know, like it's not a free for all. We had to come to him and explain our ideas and have some backing on that before we. We just sort of set off. But I did figure out working there that there was better ways to recruit, that we were failing in some ways because of some things we could do better, and it just when 2020 happened. Like everyone else, it was a good time and there was a leadership change also happening in the company and it just felt like the right time to do something different. \n\nStuart: Right, jeff, from your perspective, kind of step away from the day-to-day operations in the original company and then seeing Donna bring this together, was it an easy step to kind of get back involved to the degree that you're involved, or was it? Was she very persuasive at cajoling you into being involved? \n\nJeff: no, actually, when I stepped down as the president, ceo donna remained in the organization. It was no surprise that she wanted to do something outside of what what she'd been doing at driving, and also I told her that if you find something that you're interested in, I would like to continue to work with her in some capacity, and so that's really what happened out of this whole scenario as well. I mean, her ability, her analytical ability, her ability to put her ideas in a meaningful way, has always impressed me, and I do believe that the jury's still out in terms of whether the software will actually do what I hope it'll do. However, I think all indications are that it should be. If you can make the transition between requiring someone and finding the right person, it's the right fit is really critical in my opinion, and one of the things that I believe that I do have a good ability is to be able to assess people and judge people, and I think any success that we as an organization had is that we had good people, and you know our current president and CEO. \n\nHe was working in Whitehorse and he had a master's degree in computing sciences, and you know he fixed a software problem for an associate of mine that I ended up buying his company, and prior to that Ayman actually had joined our company as well. So I had met him three years before that and I said if you're ever unhappy, let me know. And one day I got a call out of the blue from him saying I'm not happy anymore. And so you know, it's about planting seeds, I think, and it's a networking, and when you find the right person, you know you've got to just kind of make a move on it. For sure. \n\nWe were very fortunate over the years to have people like that that. I think we've hired some very good people. When you're small, you can do things quicker, faster. When you get larger, to be a larger company, it doesn't quite work that way anymore, and so that's one of the things that I believe that what Donna and Lisa and I are working on now are going to be able to bring that small concept of finding the right person at the right time, and I think that's one of the things that this new company is going to do, and that's why I'm excited about working with Donna and Lisa. \n\nStuart: Yeah, donna, from your perspective the book was the kind of egg for the new idea. Is it still relevant as a conversation starter in the new world, or has it kind of served its purpose to a certain degree? And now you're on to slightly different things where it's not not ideal, for how transferable is what you've created already into the new company? \n\nDona: it's all still relevant because it's talking about the underpinnings of like. What is the rationale, why do we do it this way? And so that is helpful. I think that you have to be a person that that likes to read about those sorts of topics, like are you interested in thinking about, like the structure of an organization and what makes that tick Because it? And then getting into some questions that I have for a person hiring anyone, what is it that you're wanting that person to do and how much responsibility do they have? Those are the sorts of HR kind of things that we would ask somebody in order to make sure we got a good fit. So I think that it serves that purpose. \n\nStill, I've had feedback from people who have bought the book and they found they got value out of it for that. But if it, if you're an entrepreneur more like Jeff and you're kind of, you know, looking for the story, then I think that Jeff's book is more fitting for that. We certainly need both of us in order to do the other work that we do with the consulting, that there is a facilitation and, you know, some process involved with that, and that's definitely the area where I have interest and I feel like I have. That's where I bring my skill right. \n\nStuart: It's so that balance of both perspectives of broadening the we often talk about books as conversation starting books and the idea that the two of them hit give more opportunities to start conversations with people who are in either the more detail-oriented integrator role to use eras language versus the visionary, slash, add type, moving fast role. The idea that they both serve a purpose and help people, help you get into conversations with the people that they might be working from the different channels. It's an opportunity that not everyone has got and I think it will work well because it does. The books themselves are often the starting point in the conversation but whether or not people read them or read them completely or just kind of get to feel that they're in the right place, they want to continue the conversation elsewhere. It doing its job of helping identify visible prospects and allow people to raise their hand. \n\nAnd going to Jeff's point on the recruitment and the connection with people, I'm sure the situations where people read something years in the past, the seed of the idea sticks, but it's not for a long period of time until they kind of get to the point where they need to engage with you guys on the new company was kind of born out of the ideas that were within the book. The new technology is a subset of that as a capability within that. The types of people that you're trying to engage with, then, are they in particular niches or are they across across industries, but they're suffering from a particular problem. \n\nDona: When I've done the, of course, the research on it. Looking back over the companies that we have worked with, it's really funny that they have often been in financial business they're looking to improve. Many times it's been an owner-led business and they're looking to pass it on to a management group or perhaps to family members and they want to ready the people that they have from this stage of depending on the owner or the principal and they know that they have to exit out and they want to make sure that the people are prepared for all of that responsibility and accountability that they're going to have when that individual is out of the picture, mostly like they may be on the board still or they may be there for advice but they're not going to be there in the day to day. And I feel like that's where we really can lend some great insight and we can really help develop people so that they are feeling that they are ready. \n\nStuart: Right, and Jeff, was that your experience as you stepped away from the day-to-day stuff? Were you still somewhat involved in the organization or did you kind of step away completely? \n\nJeff: I didn't want to be that go-to person where all of the leaders would come to me for because I would typically have the answer at the tip of my fingers so you're going well. It'd be better if I wasn't there. So, although I'm still, I still was involved, but more at a board level. Rather than helping people find out what motivates themselves, which I still believe in I think I probably played maybe more of a role of a cheerleader rather rather than a motivator, because I don't think you motivate anybody. You help people motivate themselves, but and I still do some of that but I do think that I'm more of a cheerleader than I am a motivator does that translate sorry? \n\ngo ahead. Sorry, carry on I was just gonna does yeah, story, it's your podcast. \n\nStuart: I was saying as we just started the podcast. I'm down at the office in florida as opposed to home in pennsylvania, so the extra satellite delay is obviously just catching us out a little bit. I was gonna say the that experience of stepping away. Does that inform, inform the relationships that Donna was talking about, of helping other organizations as they're planning that transition? Have you found that most people are in that position where they're thinking about stepping away and therefore your experience kind of reinforces an existing belief? Or do most people find it difficult to make that transition and they've kind of got their fingers still in various bits in the pie and perhaps your perspective of needing to make that separation is a conversation that they haven't had before? \n\nJeff: I'll let you answer that, donna, because you probably look at it through a different set of eyes than I would. \n\nDona: I certainly utilize Jeff as an example in that to, to the extent that it. You know that I'm not being annoying, and because every situation is different and so the extent that a person needs to be there to support may be situational depending on the organization, but certainly we help the individual to understand that the mindset of being a board member and the role of being a board member that literal we actually write a literal job description for them because they sometimes have to see that document to go okay, yeah, remember, you're there to guide the CEO, but really not the CFO or the people that work inside the business and you're no longer in operations, and so that they do actually have to make this mental shift. \n\nStuart: And that requires coaching and it requires some structure yeah, I imagine it's so difficult, particularly for organizations where they've got the longevity and they've been there for so long. Not is it a job, but it's also what they do day in, day out. And then, as Geoff was saying, the fact that you do have the answers at your fingertips because of all of that 40 years of experience, and it almost seems like it would just be so quick to answer the question but to have the realisation that for the organisational good it is beneficial to step back and almost have to go through the pain but whilst you're still around, if the worst were to happen or if it was a very pressing question, but to kind of orchestrate that transition rather than just let it kind of tick over and all of the problems that that brings up. It's a it's a good insight that I imagine that a lot of people would find benefit from, actually not just theoretically being told it, but hearing it from someone who had been the mill of that. \n\nTime always goes fast on the podcast, I could think I kind of I end every podcast by saying the same thing, so it shouldn't catch me out, but every time I look at the clock it goes fast. I want to wrap up, I guess by just looking at the two books, because oftentimes we're just talking to one person and we're in that one particular model. What I really like about this show is it's given the balance of the two approaches, but I think there's a similarity and a job of work that sits underneath both of them in this idea of a conversation starting book, and the two approaches are different, but it allows you to start conversations with those people. So is there anything that now you're a little bit past writing? Then obviously there's always the opportunity to make changes, but is there anything that if you were starting again from today, you would come to the project with a different mindset or try and get a different outcome from it? \n\nJeff: Donna, why don't you go? I'll finish, because there's a couple of things that I'd like to comment on, but I know, donna, you're much more analytical than I am. \n\nDona: So I do want to hear your thoughts. \n\nYeah, I think I would employ more of a marketing mindset and I would think, okay, if my audience is an entrepreneur, then I'm going to get more into the mind of that person and I'm going to write a book that's going to be helpful and appeal to them. And so I tend to tended in this book to start from my base of knowledge and that's not the way an entrepreneur thinks about their business. So then I would incorporate more language, so talk to entrepreneurs and ask them, like, what are the problems you're trying to solve, and then write the book that helps with that. So that would be now the approach I would take yeah it's so difficult, isn't it? \n\nStuart: because we all come to it with our own experience and it's difficult to kind of mentally switch that to the the different perspective. Jeff, what were you saying? Sorry? \n\nJeff: I think the one thing you know, you is critical and I think it's part of even looking at your format for a 90 minute book is who's your audience? Who's your audience and why are you writing it? And so for me, from my standpoint, my audience were my children, and I really wanted to have a strong message for the kids in terms of what actually took place over those years, and I think the book accomplished that for sure. And there's a lot of carryover because there's a lot of people who I think are entrepreneurs that think that there's things that happen that just fall into place. Well, nothing really falls into place unless you make it. So I think that message comes across really well in that book. \n\nBut to Donna's point, I also think that you could probably do I could have done more of a how-to. Some of the feedback I got from some of the members of the staff who read it that knew me quite well, said I'm really your book didn't go into enough detail. It's 190 pages or whatever it is. I wish it was 300 pages. I wish it was 400 pages because you know you've got so many great stories that you know they know me and they could almost hear me talking to them as they were reading it, and so if I were to have done that over. \n\nI think the book I wrote was accomplished. What I wanted to do, the next one that I do I want to actually, this is pure entertainment, but it's also the book that I'm going to write is about humor and why humor is the great equalizer in any situation where there's all kinds of tension, and I think that was one of the things that I really was able to do. Well, but not from a marketing standpoint, but just from a pure, from a pure easy listening or easy reading and entertaining from it. I'd like to write a book that entertains you from some of the incredibly you know, incredible family stories that have taken place, and not only just family, but what I consider family, through work and situations that you cannot, you can't imagine the most bizarre and I have a sick sense of humor and I think I think people like reading something that's going to make them laugh and some of those situations and stories that I've been fortunate enough to experience in my lifetime. I just want to share that with people because there's some great stories. \n\nStuart: And that's the great opportunity, isn't it, To be able to capture those things and get them down in a way that other people can consume. It's so difficult, or such an unfortunate scenario. We had a good friend down here who unfortunately passed away, must be three or four years ago now, just at the beginning of not related to COVID, but at the beginning of COVID. Dick Holland was his name and he had such a wealth of fantastically hilarious stories and we even doing what we do. We were saying for years that we should get them documented and captured, but we never quite got around to it. So hopefully no one on the call or listening is about to shuffle off in the way that dick did, but it's a reminder to kind of capture them and get them down as quick as possible. Plus, I think you and I the three of us we share a kind of commonwealth sense of humor, which is much more hilarious than an american sense absolutely absolutely not wanting to offend half or three quarters of the audience. \n\nI've really enjoyed this, guys, like I. Like I say every podcast, the time just goes so fast. It'd be really great at some point in the not too distant future to maybe do a follow-up show and just talk a little bit more in some detail. I want to make sure that people have got the opportunity to follow along with the journey and find out more about what you guys do. So where would be a good place to point people to? \n\nJeff: And I can make sure that there's a link in the show notes Amazon, and why can't? We is the name of the book and my name. That's all you need to do. Just google it on Amazon, you'll find it. Yes, I'm on Amazon as well. \n\nDona: Yeah, I was going to say I'm on Amazon as well. We both took well 90 minute books, helped us to set up our books in the Kindle app and on the Amazon site, so that was. I would have hated to have had to have figured out that process on my own. So we thank I'm very thankful for that. We also we do have our website, rhealize.com, and Rhealize is spelled R-H-E-A-L-I-Z-E beg your pardon, that it's. It's spelled that way because it's based on the mythical lady Rhea, who was the mother of Zeus, the Greek god, and Rhea was a person that used her intellect and her wily ways in order to solve her problems rather than using the power she had as a god, and so we felt that was kind of a very fitting and she was also the. \n\nShe was also the goddess over midwifery and why I felt that was appropriate for me as a person is I actually refer to myself as a midwife for entrepreneurial ideas, because I find that I can actually help bring that out of and yeah, but I don't stick around to like, raise the child, I just help them to get born and I move on that's okay. \n\nStuart: It's good to, like Jeff was saying before, it's good to know your specialties and your skills and then leave the rest to other people definitely an implementer, not a pro, you know, a program runner right, yeah, I'm, yeah, I have similar tendencies. \n\nThat's fantastic. I'll make sure there's a link in the show notes to those sources for people, everyone as you're listening. I think we've heard a couple of examples today. Both kind of tie into this idea of conversation, starting books, and whether it's a personal story that you're telling, or whether it's more of a how to, or whether it's more of a framework, just the opportunity to get this in front of people and move the world forward by starting more meaningful conversations. These guys have had a great example of that. So, donna, jeff, thank you very much for your time. Everyone, thanks for tuning in and we'll catch you in the next one very much. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Dona Baker and Jeff Polovick about their experience writing books that serve very different purposes and how this led to a whole new service.
\n\nJeff and Dona share a connection through Jeff's company, Driving Force, where Jeff's motivation for writing his book, Why Can't We?, was to document the challenges, decision-making processes, and lessons learned throughout his career.
\n\nDona, who worked with Jeff for 12 years, reflects on her learning experiences and how they shaped her book, The Friction-Free Entrepreneur, that talks about the opportunities to maximize your energy and strengths as an entrepreneur by partnering with someone who can do the stuff you can't.
\n\nWe discuss the need for storytelling, how she incorporates it into her work to engage readers, and how working through the ideas for the book led to the creation of their latest strategic HR company, Rhealize.
\n\nThis is a great conversation and really highlights one of the unexpected benefits of writing a book where the focus of thinking about your ideas can reveal bigger opportunities.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/167
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Dona Baker:
\nWebsite: Rhealize
\nBook: The Friction-Free Entrepreneur
\nLinkedIn: Dona Baker
Jeff Polovick:
\nBook: Why Can't We
\nLinkedIn: Jeff Polovick
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Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nDona: Yeah, very well, thank you.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. I'm excited to share this story with people. The podcast recently we've shared a lot of author stories, but just the nature of the scheduling oftentimes it's people who are just finishing the process, whereas you guys had gone through it a little while ago. So I'm excited to share this story with people because you've got a little bit more longevity and have been using the book in a way for longer, which I think will give people more insights into what happens over the long term rather than the short term. Why don't we start off, though, by giving a little bit of a background share with everyone what it is that you guys do, how you know each other, and then we can move into the book part of the conversation.
\n\nDona: I'll let you start, jeff, because you were the person that brought me into all this world.
\n\nJeff: All right, well, I think. Just a little bit of background. First of all, I started a business 46 years ago. It's a vehicle rental, leasing and sales business Started from scratch and I had been in the industry for about five years prior to starting it, so I knew what I wanted to do and I had a firm view on what my values were and how. I thought that customer service was absolutely the most important part of growing the business. I guess very determined Failure was never going to be an option and 46 years later, we have roughly 650 employees. We're in 36 or 37 different locations in Canada and the US. Our sales are in excess of 500 million a year and the company is doing extremely well. I stepped down as the president and CEO eight years ago. I'm still a minority shareholder and I'm on the board of directors. I still care, but not as much as when I owned it all myself.
\n\nStuart: So the opportunity to get that balance right.
\n\nJeff: That's right. So I spend six months of my year in the Palm Desert, palm Springs area. The other half is in Canada, mostly in the Okanagan, but still many different locations where we have businesses. Edmonton is still home, and so that just sort of gives you a little bit of background. We've had a lot of great opportunities over the years, and what compelled me to write the book was really was for the benefit of my children.
\n\nStuart: We have two children.
\n\nJeff: They're certainly adults now.
\n\nBut when I stepped down as a president and CEO, I really felt that it was important that I share, I guess, some of the life lessons and some of the things that I learned during that time where I was running the business and I think what the format of the 90-minute book concept allowed me to capture what I felt were the most important aspects of the lessons that I'd learned over the years. And now that I've completed the book, it's called why Can't we? And obviously that's one of the questions that was my driving force as we were going along I said why can't we do this? Somebody says you can't do it. Well, here we can. I just have to figure out a way around it. So I think what I did at the end of every chapter I kind of summarized some key bullet points in terms of what I felt that component of the chapter entailed. And both my kids have read it and both of my kids had given me the kind of affirmation saying you know, we didn't realize what you were going through when we were kids growing up. And I said well, that was really the reason why I wanted to write it, because I think quite often, as parents, you want to protect your children from all the hardships that you're going through or at least that was what my or what we tried to do and I think some of those lessons that the kids are running their own business now and not necessarily they're entrepreneurs, but not in the same. They don't have the same sort of views as I do, but the values are very similar. So the book has been a great tool for me to share with other people who are interested in some of the life lessons that I learned along the way and some of the values that I still believe in today. And I think I learned a lot of the things about myself through Strategic Coach, which I know you're very familiar with as well, and so I really felt that was really important.
\n\nAlong the way and during the process of building the company, I got to a point where I knew that I had the ideas, but I didn't have the, let's say, the desire to look after all the details that need to be taken care of when you're working on a project, and that's how I actually got introduced to Donna. I had a specific criteria that I was looking for, and when Donna came along, here was a wonderful young lady who had worked in a government organization and I thought to myself, okay, well, she's making a choice to leave that environment to come into a free enterprise system. There's got to be something more to her than just making that decision. And sure enough, I was very pleased to be able to work with Donna for 16 years, and now more obviously since I've left. But what it really did, is it really?
\n\nShe brings to the table for me a different way of looking at things. I'm probably more of an ideas person. You know you're bouncing from A to B to C to D to E or an F and whatever, and she kind of is the force that brings it all together and said well, look, let's put it in a more logical, organized fashion. And, quite frankly, that's one of the things that your 90-minute book concept did for me is it helped me to slow down and say, okay, these are the things that are important. And then finding an editor that would challenge me on the ideas that I'd captured in the book. And even still, I thought it was pretty structured, until you have someone review your work and then tell you hey, listen, why is that important?
\n\nYou know it's obviously important to you, but why would it be important to me? And all of a sudden it opened up my thinking to say, okay, aha, and that's where the bullets came in. At the end of the chapter you can write the story right about the chapter and what was happening. But then what did you learn from that? And that was the part that I really enjoyed. So I hope that's maybe a little longer than what you wanted to hear, but that's the summary yeah, not at all.
\n\nStuart: And that idea that we go through life and the ideas that we've got, particularly in the entrepreneurial realm, where you're not necessarily directly challenged on things if you're the one setting the tone of the organization and pushing out the ideas, it's not always that they're challenged. So to have to question your thinking because it is going on to a page and someone else is doesn't, isn't coming to the page with the same background that you've got to be able to question that, it does help refine those thoughts a little bit more. The interesting exercise even if the outcome wasn't a book, it would still be an interesting exercise to go through, just to think about your thinking a little bit you're right yeah, donna, from your perspective, you guys have worked together for a long time, going through the process and seeing these ideas come together.
\n\ndid they all resonate? Or Jeff was saying that the kids hadn't realized some of the background to the stories. Was that the same for you?
\n\nDona: So my book is quite different than Jeff's because his was about his journey building a company and all of the characters that were along the way with that a company and all of the characters that were along the way with that. Mine was reflecting on what I had learned working in an entrepreneurial sales organization with Jeff and observing someone who had what I think or has what I think are natural talent for the communication and for strategy and definitely for negotiation, so that this is a person that really gave a good example of how you run an entrepreneurial business. And then how can you make that successful? By partnering with people who can do the stuff that you can't and that is the book that I wrote was the friction free entrepreneur. How do you make for yourself? Do you understand what your qualities are and lean into that? Leverage that by then finding those people that can do the things that you find sap your energies and take your attention away from the work that you do best.
\n\nStuart: So I think Jeff had mentioned that when that perfect synergy of finding the gaps that you either can't do or don't want to do or someone's better suited to do. They kind of bring the organization together. From your perspective, on the sharing the stories, was your approach a bit more anecdotal and story-based or more along the ideas of introducing this concept to people who maybe hadn't come across the idea before?
\n\nDona: Yes, mine was more around the theory, I would say, or talking about the ideas behind why Jeff was so successful in this partnership or any business, how you could be more successful doing that. And I think if I were to do the book again, I actually would incorporate more story than what I did, especially if it was being marketed to entrepreneurs. These are busy individuals and that they may not necessarily care that much about what the ideology is behind the company and its operation and that kind of thing or even the partnership. And I feel like Jeff's book is very effective because it is a book about story and I think that's for any writer a good thing to remember it's interesting.
\n\nStuart:I think I put myself more on the integrator side of the fence rather than the visionary side of the fence, even kind of heading up the organization here. My background and preference is naturally towards the behind the scenes systems rather than the in front of the camera stories. So it's still a struggle for me all of these years later to include those extra elements rather than just talk about the, the facts and the systems and the details. But it, I think you're right, it does give people a opportunity to connect with the person a little bit more or put themselves in the position as it's told through a story, as opposed to just sharing some details. It's Christy who I think you probably worked with through the process.
\n\nChristy is pretty good at extracting those stories from people. She's more naturally inclined to that type of thing anyway. And, jeff, as you were talking, it was probably christy who was kind of pulling some of those elements out as well in the process. As you've gone through both of your guests, as you've seen the other person go through the process and seen the end result, the idea of how you're each intending to use the book, you went into the project with particular ideas in mind but did seeing the other person go through the process open your eyes to other opportunities or other audiences that your own individual's books might resonate with?
\n\nJeff: Well, I think I continue to use the book and I think the company continues to use the book as an example of what the earlier days were like at Driving Force, and I think the book is used partly as an indoctrination, I think, to some of the new people that are interested.
\n\nSome aren't interested and I'm fine with that, but for me, there's lots of people that you meet in your travels that are I've always done work with as a mentor and I know there's a lot, lots of people that you meet in your travels that are I've always done work with as a mentor, and I know there's a lot of young people that I've given the book to that I've said oh, there's some ideas in here that you might find interesting and they they generally do people are quite surprised that it's not a. You know, if you quite often, if you read a book about, success is a journey, it's not a destination, but you quite often they'll read about the things that took place during those 40 years and they're going. It wasn't okay. There were lots of challenges, there were lots of things that you know, there was survival one-on-one, there was survival two-on-one, survival three-on-one.
\n\nYou know where you're at a situation where it could have been the end. It could have been the end of the business If things. You're at a situation where it could have been the end of the business if things hadn't turned out the way they did. And it's not always just your ability to make a decision to change the outcome. Quite often fate and luck has a lot to do with it as well timing. But there's still situations where you're in a real tough position, totally sometimes beyond your control, such as the National Energy Program that came into effect in Canada in the early 80s. It just devastated the economy in Western Canada and to survive that, I consider that to be survival 101. And you can do all the things that you need to do from a business standpoint to survive. And then there's other situations that come. So, as I said, it wasn't always the cakewalk. There were lots of ups and downs, but nonetheless we were still moving in the right direction.
\n\nStuart: It's interesting. It gives people the behind the scenes of just seeing the success as it is now. It's looking at behind the scenes of the challenges and then lessons to be learned and taken away from your experience of those. It gives people more of an opportunity to see where they are in the current position and just draw from and pull from the various pieces that are out there in the world and try and make their best decision in the moment, but inspired or informed by what other people have gone through. I think if too many people see just the upsides of it, it's kind of like the social mediafication of everything. You kind of only see the glossy end product and it's valuable to see the, the messy under the surface work from from time to time. Donna, what about you in terms of kind of the access to the sharing the book with certain groups of people? Did that idea broaden either from when you started the project or haven't seen the way that jeff and the company are using their version of the book?
\n\nDona: I was most interested about collecting my thoughts and then being able to understand, like, what is the aspects of an entrepreneur that need to come together in order for them to be successful.
\n\nAnd so you know, just recounting of these. Those early days of his company were perhaps more cowboy, but as he matured and, like as he says, as he learned, there became more structure in that organization, and when I joined the company in 2009, there was a banking crisis going on across North America and a stock market meltdown, and so I watched how he used the discipline of the structure and also this entrepreneurism and some very brave decisions in order to keep the company afloat again during a very challenging time, and so, for me, it was the art and the discipline of the business, that of running that business, that I felt like needed to be documented. And it isn't a story about Jeff's company, about driving force. It's more of a story about what are the things that an entrepreneur needs to balance in order for them to have a robust business, and I didn't just use my own observations about that. There's a lot of references to other people that Simon Sinek, and there's Christopher Gray, who you may be familiar with.
\n\nHe's a British psychologist who writes on organizations, so there's people that we have referenced within the book. I feel like the end of the book was the thing that spurred the current business that Jeff and I are working in. We have a consulting business that helps organizations through succession and other transitions. We work with leadership teams in helping them to understand their own makeup and how they can work more productively together and avoid conflicts and these sorts of things, but we also are building a software platform that is helping them to recruit more effectively as well, and those ideas of how that software platform work came out of a distillation process that I used to write the book.
\n\nStuart: It was one of the things that we were talking about off as we were scheduling the podcast this idea that, from the ideas that you were able to capture and that extra time to think about the thinking and bring it all together, really jump-started or kick-started a little bit this new organization. How do you have that as was it the seed of an idea going into the project, the book project, or was it really as a process of? Oh, now I've brought all of these things together and something is very clearly coming out of it. Which was it? Chicken and egg kind of? Which came first?
\n\nDona: I believe that it was probably the egg that grew the idea. There was some other things that happened after that. Jeff is the first person that gave me an opportunity to work on organizational learning. Before coming into his company, I had been working in government, it's true, and I also worked in other kind of more administrative roles, and they were not aligned with what my interests were.
\n\nI really wanted to work in the human resources area. I had that education, I had developed skills in presentation and I knew I wanted to be someone who was heading up learning and development and helping an organization progress that way. So he looked beyond the fact that I hadn't worked in that specifically and allowed me to learn within driving force and to find my way. He's very much a supporter of people learning that way, so long as they, you know, like it's not a free for all. We had to come to him and explain our ideas and have some backing on that before we. We just sort of set off. But I did figure out working there that there was better ways to recruit, that we were failing in some ways because of some things we could do better, and it just when 2020 happened. Like everyone else, it was a good time and there was a leadership change also happening in the company and it just felt like the right time to do something different.
\n\nStuart: Right, jeff, from your perspective, kind of step away from the day-to-day operations in the original company and then seeing Donna bring this together, was it an easy step to kind of get back involved to the degree that you're involved, or was it? Was she very persuasive at cajoling you into being involved?
\n\nJeff: no, actually, when I stepped down as the president, ceo donna remained in the organization. It was no surprise that she wanted to do something outside of what what she'd been doing at driving, and also I told her that if you find something that you're interested in, I would like to continue to work with her in some capacity, and so that's really what happened out of this whole scenario as well. I mean, her ability, her analytical ability, her ability to put her ideas in a meaningful way, has always impressed me, and I do believe that the jury's still out in terms of whether the software will actually do what I hope it'll do. However, I think all indications are that it should be. If you can make the transition between requiring someone and finding the right person, it's the right fit is really critical in my opinion, and one of the things that I believe that I do have a good ability is to be able to assess people and judge people, and I think any success that we as an organization had is that we had good people, and you know our current president and CEO.
\n\nHe was working in Whitehorse and he had a master's degree in computing sciences, and you know he fixed a software problem for an associate of mine that I ended up buying his company, and prior to that Ayman actually had joined our company as well. So I had met him three years before that and I said if you're ever unhappy, let me know. And one day I got a call out of the blue from him saying I'm not happy anymore. And so you know, it's about planting seeds, I think, and it's a networking, and when you find the right person, you know you've got to just kind of make a move on it. For sure.
\n\nWe were very fortunate over the years to have people like that that. I think we've hired some very good people. When you're small, you can do things quicker, faster. When you get larger, to be a larger company, it doesn't quite work that way anymore, and so that's one of the things that I believe that what Donna and Lisa and I are working on now are going to be able to bring that small concept of finding the right person at the right time, and I think that's one of the things that this new company is going to do, and that's why I'm excited about working with Donna and Lisa.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, donna, from your perspective the book was the kind of egg for the new idea. Is it still relevant as a conversation starter in the new world, or has it kind of served its purpose to a certain degree? And now you're on to slightly different things where it's not not ideal, for how transferable is what you've created already into the new company?
\n\nDona: it's all still relevant because it's talking about the underpinnings of like. What is the rationale, why do we do it this way? And so that is helpful. I think that you have to be a person that that likes to read about those sorts of topics, like are you interested in thinking about, like the structure of an organization and what makes that tick Because it? And then getting into some questions that I have for a person hiring anyone, what is it that you're wanting that person to do and how much responsibility do they have? Those are the sorts of HR kind of things that we would ask somebody in order to make sure we got a good fit. So I think that it serves that purpose.
\n\nStill, I've had feedback from people who have bought the book and they found they got value out of it for that. But if it, if you're an entrepreneur more like Jeff and you're kind of, you know, looking for the story, then I think that Jeff's book is more fitting for that. We certainly need both of us in order to do the other work that we do with the consulting, that there is a facilitation and, you know, some process involved with that, and that's definitely the area where I have interest and I feel like I have. That's where I bring my skill right.
\n\nStuart: It's so that balance of both perspectives of broadening the we often talk about books as conversation starting books and the idea that the two of them hit give more opportunities to start conversations with people who are in either the more detail-oriented integrator role to use eras language versus the visionary, slash, add type, moving fast role. The idea that they both serve a purpose and help people, help you get into conversations with the people that they might be working from the different channels. It's an opportunity that not everyone has got and I think it will work well because it does. The books themselves are often the starting point in the conversation but whether or not people read them or read them completely or just kind of get to feel that they're in the right place, they want to continue the conversation elsewhere. It doing its job of helping identify visible prospects and allow people to raise their hand.
\n\nAnd going to Jeff's point on the recruitment and the connection with people, I'm sure the situations where people read something years in the past, the seed of the idea sticks, but it's not for a long period of time until they kind of get to the point where they need to engage with you guys on the new company was kind of born out of the ideas that were within the book. The new technology is a subset of that as a capability within that. The types of people that you're trying to engage with, then, are they in particular niches or are they across across industries, but they're suffering from a particular problem.
\n\nDona: When I've done the, of course, the research on it. Looking back over the companies that we have worked with, it's really funny that they have often been in financial business they're looking to improve. Many times it's been an owner-led business and they're looking to pass it on to a management group or perhaps to family members and they want to ready the people that they have from this stage of depending on the owner or the principal and they know that they have to exit out and they want to make sure that the people are prepared for all of that responsibility and accountability that they're going to have when that individual is out of the picture, mostly like they may be on the board still or they may be there for advice but they're not going to be there in the day to day. And I feel like that's where we really can lend some great insight and we can really help develop people so that they are feeling that they are ready.
\n\nStuart: Right, and Jeff, was that your experience as you stepped away from the day-to-day stuff? Were you still somewhat involved in the organization or did you kind of step away completely?
\n\nJeff: I didn't want to be that go-to person where all of the leaders would come to me for because I would typically have the answer at the tip of my fingers so you're going well. It'd be better if I wasn't there. So, although I'm still, I still was involved, but more at a board level. Rather than helping people find out what motivates themselves, which I still believe in I think I probably played maybe more of a role of a cheerleader rather rather than a motivator, because I don't think you motivate anybody. You help people motivate themselves, but and I still do some of that but I do think that I'm more of a cheerleader than I am a motivator does that translate sorry?
\n\ngo ahead. Sorry, carry on I was just gonna does yeah, story, it's your podcast.
\n\nStuart: I was saying as we just started the podcast. I'm down at the office in florida as opposed to home in pennsylvania, so the extra satellite delay is obviously just catching us out a little bit. I was gonna say the that experience of stepping away. Does that inform, inform the relationships that Donna was talking about, of helping other organizations as they're planning that transition? Have you found that most people are in that position where they're thinking about stepping away and therefore your experience kind of reinforces an existing belief? Or do most people find it difficult to make that transition and they've kind of got their fingers still in various bits in the pie and perhaps your perspective of needing to make that separation is a conversation that they haven't had before?
\n\nJeff: I'll let you answer that, donna, because you probably look at it through a different set of eyes than I would.
\n\nDona: I certainly utilize Jeff as an example in that to, to the extent that it. You know that I'm not being annoying, and because every situation is different and so the extent that a person needs to be there to support may be situational depending on the organization, but certainly we help the individual to understand that the mindset of being a board member and the role of being a board member that literal we actually write a literal job description for them because they sometimes have to see that document to go okay, yeah, remember, you're there to guide the CEO, but really not the CFO or the people that work inside the business and you're no longer in operations, and so that they do actually have to make this mental shift.
\n\nStuart: And that requires coaching and it requires some structure yeah, I imagine it's so difficult, particularly for organizations where they've got the longevity and they've been there for so long. Not is it a job, but it's also what they do day in, day out. And then, as Geoff was saying, the fact that you do have the answers at your fingertips because of all of that 40 years of experience, and it almost seems like it would just be so quick to answer the question but to have the realisation that for the organisational good it is beneficial to step back and almost have to go through the pain but whilst you're still around, if the worst were to happen or if it was a very pressing question, but to kind of orchestrate that transition rather than just let it kind of tick over and all of the problems that that brings up. It's a it's a good insight that I imagine that a lot of people would find benefit from, actually not just theoretically being told it, but hearing it from someone who had been the mill of that.
\n\nTime always goes fast on the podcast, I could think I kind of I end every podcast by saying the same thing, so it shouldn't catch me out, but every time I look at the clock it goes fast. I want to wrap up, I guess by just looking at the two books, because oftentimes we're just talking to one person and we're in that one particular model. What I really like about this show is it's given the balance of the two approaches, but I think there's a similarity and a job of work that sits underneath both of them in this idea of a conversation starting book, and the two approaches are different, but it allows you to start conversations with those people. So is there anything that now you're a little bit past writing? Then obviously there's always the opportunity to make changes, but is there anything that if you were starting again from today, you would come to the project with a different mindset or try and get a different outcome from it?
\n\nJeff: Donna, why don't you go? I'll finish, because there's a couple of things that I'd like to comment on, but I know, donna, you're much more analytical than I am.
\n\nDona: So I do want to hear your thoughts.
\n\nYeah, I think I would employ more of a marketing mindset and I would think, okay, if my audience is an entrepreneur, then I'm going to get more into the mind of that person and I'm going to write a book that's going to be helpful and appeal to them. And so I tend to tended in this book to start from my base of knowledge and that's not the way an entrepreneur thinks about their business. So then I would incorporate more language, so talk to entrepreneurs and ask them, like, what are the problems you're trying to solve, and then write the book that helps with that. So that would be now the approach I would take yeah it's so difficult, isn't it?
\n\nStuart: because we all come to it with our own experience and it's difficult to kind of mentally switch that to the the different perspective. Jeff, what were you saying? Sorry?
\n\nJeff: I think the one thing you know, you is critical and I think it's part of even looking at your format for a 90 minute book is who's your audience? Who's your audience and why are you writing it? And so for me, from my standpoint, my audience were my children, and I really wanted to have a strong message for the kids in terms of what actually took place over those years, and I think the book accomplished that for sure. And there's a lot of carryover because there's a lot of people who I think are entrepreneurs that think that there's things that happen that just fall into place. Well, nothing really falls into place unless you make it. So I think that message comes across really well in that book.
\n\nBut to Donna's point, I also think that you could probably do I could have done more of a how-to. Some of the feedback I got from some of the members of the staff who read it that knew me quite well, said I'm really your book didn't go into enough detail. It's 190 pages or whatever it is. I wish it was 300 pages. I wish it was 400 pages because you know you've got so many great stories that you know they know me and they could almost hear me talking to them as they were reading it, and so if I were to have done that over.
\n\nI think the book I wrote was accomplished. What I wanted to do, the next one that I do I want to actually, this is pure entertainment, but it's also the book that I'm going to write is about humor and why humor is the great equalizer in any situation where there's all kinds of tension, and I think that was one of the things that I really was able to do. Well, but not from a marketing standpoint, but just from a pure, from a pure easy listening or easy reading and entertaining from it. I'd like to write a book that entertains you from some of the incredibly you know, incredible family stories that have taken place, and not only just family, but what I consider family, through work and situations that you cannot, you can't imagine the most bizarre and I have a sick sense of humor and I think I think people like reading something that's going to make them laugh and some of those situations and stories that I've been fortunate enough to experience in my lifetime. I just want to share that with people because there's some great stories.
\n\nStuart: And that's the great opportunity, isn't it, To be able to capture those things and get them down in a way that other people can consume. It's so difficult, or such an unfortunate scenario. We had a good friend down here who unfortunately passed away, must be three or four years ago now, just at the beginning of not related to COVID, but at the beginning of COVID. Dick Holland was his name and he had such a wealth of fantastically hilarious stories and we even doing what we do. We were saying for years that we should get them documented and captured, but we never quite got around to it. So hopefully no one on the call or listening is about to shuffle off in the way that dick did, but it's a reminder to kind of capture them and get them down as quick as possible. Plus, I think you and I the three of us we share a kind of commonwealth sense of humor, which is much more hilarious than an american sense absolutely absolutely not wanting to offend half or three quarters of the audience.
\n\nI've really enjoyed this, guys, like I. Like I say every podcast, the time just goes so fast. It'd be really great at some point in the not too distant future to maybe do a follow-up show and just talk a little bit more in some detail. I want to make sure that people have got the opportunity to follow along with the journey and find out more about what you guys do. So where would be a good place to point people to?
\n\nJeff: And I can make sure that there's a link in the show notes Amazon, and why can't? We is the name of the book and my name. That's all you need to do. Just google it on Amazon, you'll find it. Yes, I'm on Amazon as well.
\n\nDona: Yeah, I was going to say I'm on Amazon as well. We both took well 90 minute books, helped us to set up our books in the Kindle app and on the Amazon site, so that was. I would have hated to have had to have figured out that process on my own. So we thank I'm very thankful for that. We also we do have our website, rhealize.com, and Rhealize is spelled R-H-E-A-L-I-Z-E beg your pardon, that it's. It's spelled that way because it's based on the mythical lady Rhea, who was the mother of Zeus, the Greek god, and Rhea was a person that used her intellect and her wily ways in order to solve her problems rather than using the power she had as a god, and so we felt that was kind of a very fitting and she was also the.
\n\nShe was also the goddess over midwifery and why I felt that was appropriate for me as a person is I actually refer to myself as a midwife for entrepreneurial ideas, because I find that I can actually help bring that out of and yeah, but I don't stick around to like, raise the child, I just help them to get born and I move on that's okay.
\n\nStuart: It's good to, like Jeff was saying before, it's good to know your specialties and your skills and then leave the rest to other people definitely an implementer, not a pro, you know, a program runner right, yeah, I'm, yeah, I have similar tendencies.
\n\nThat's fantastic. I'll make sure there's a link in the show notes to those sources for people, everyone as you're listening. I think we've heard a couple of examples today. Both kind of tie into this idea of conversation, starting books, and whether it's a personal story that you're telling, or whether it's more of a how to, or whether it's more of a framework, just the opportunity to get this in front of people and move the world forward by starting more meaningful conversations. These guys have had a great example of that. So, donna, jeff, thank you very much for your time. Everyone, thanks for tuning in and we'll catch you in the next one very much.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Dona Baker and Jeff Polovick about their experience writing books that serve very different purposes and how this led to a whole new service.\r\n\r\nJeff and Dona share a connection through Jeff's company, Driving Force, where Jeff's motivation for writing his book, Why Can't We?, was to document the challenges, decision-making processes, and lessons learned throughout his career.\r\n\r\nDona, who worked with Jeff for 12 years, reflects on her learning experiences and how they shaped her book, The Friction-Free Entrepreneur, that talks about the opportunities to maximize your energy and strengths as an entrepreneur by partnering with someone who can do the stuff you can't.\r\n\r\nWe discuss the need for storytelling, how she incorporates it into her work to engage readers, and how working through the ideas for the book led to the creation of their latest strategic HR company, Rhealize.\r\n\r\nThis is a great conversation and really highlights one of the unexpected benefits of writing a book where the focus of thinking about your ideas can reveal bigger opportunities.","date_published":"2024-05-12T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/74a257b7-252b-484c-a5e0-fd3d30b4dedb.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28736747,"duration_in_seconds":2384}]},{"id":"b49d3507-e2c3-40fc-a042-70fa78ab9541","title":"Ep166: The Empowered COO with Rachel Lebowitz","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/166","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Rachel Lebowitz, EOS Implementor and COO coach, about the challenges leaders face and the ideas she brings together in her new book, The Empowered COO.\n\nRachel brings a wealth of experience to her work. From helping scale her family's business to working with a wide range of organizations as an EOS Implementor to her training in relationship and codependency management, she shares her expertise in aligning big thinkers and their COOs. We explore the paradox of a visionary \"addiction\" to ideas and a COO's need to assert boundaries.\n\nThis episode is a treasure trove of practical strategies, especially for those in COO or Integrator roles. Rachel's belief in COOs communicating their value beyond executing details is a key takeaway. We also delve into strategies for empowerment through delegation and questioning skills, providing some actionable insights. \n\nHer approach is pretty unique, addressing both the strategies and the underlying issues of working across personality types. Her personal experience helps to illustrate the challenges felt by many, if not all, in a COO role.\n\nWe wrapping up delving into some of the benefits of using a conversation-starting book to introduce an idea into a conversation going on in the minds of the people you can best help.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Stuart Bell and Rachel Lebowitz discuss the synergy between visionaries and COOs, focusing on how to create a balance between innovation and execution.\n We explore Rachel's background in a family business, her experience with the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS), and how it aids in establishing clarity and a healthy culture in companies.\n Rachel draws parallels between the personalities of entrepreneurs and addicts, suggesting that visionaries have a relentless pursuit for ideas similar to an addict's behavior.\n We discuss the importance of COOs asserting themselves to avoid being overshadowed by visionaries and the role emotional intelligence plays in their collaboration.\n Stuart emphasizes the need for COOs to communicate assertively, establish boundaries, and delegate effectively to maximize their potential.\n Challenges that COOs face in their roles are examined, including the scarcity of specialized coaching and the benefits of coaching tailored to their unique needs.\n Stuart shares his experience with the transformation of a personal project into a business growth catalyst, highlighting the strategic use of books for lead generation.\n We touch on the difficulty integrators may have in being seen as negative and how they can use strategic questioning to guide visionaries.\n Rachel and Stuart discuss the power of thought leadership and authorship for COOs, emphasizing the need for self-awareness and courage to initiate change.\n The conversation also covers Rachel's personal journey and strategies for COOs and visionaries to work together effectively, leveraging the traits of both roles.\n\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/166\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nRachel Lebowitz Contact Information:\nWebsite:Empowered COO \nLinkedIn:Rachel Lebowitz\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nRachel: You know the world is all into coaching CEOs right now. There's masterminds, like you know Dan Sullivan, Strategic Coach, Genius Network, Vistage, EO. I mean unending right. But How many masterminds do you know for COOs? The other thing is we you know a great CEO visionary will say, yeah, sure, get yourself coaching now. \n\nThe problem is that 90% of the coaches that are out there are executive coaches that cater to visionary thinking.\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today I have a great guest with us, Rachel Lebowitz. Rachel, how are you doing? \n\nRachel: Hi Stuart, thank you so much for having me. I know this is going to be fun. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. It's always interesting. The last week's show that I recorded was with a guy called David DePula who I know pretty well. We've had lots of conversations outside of just the book, but you and I haven't had a chance to catch up yet. So it's always interesting to kind of do the discovery at the same time that people are hearing about on the show. So I'm interested to dive a little bit deeper. Why don't you start by giving a bit of background on you and what you do and kind of set the scene for the audience? \n\nRachel: Sure. So I grew up in a family business and a big family. My parents owned a business and I think I started working from the age of 10. I was punching a time card and I think by 12 or 13, I asked for a raise because you've got to ask for a raise. But the most important part of working in a family business was observing how employees acted very differently when the boss was around versus not. And then I decided to go for a degree in business behavioral science. \n\nFast forward many years. My husband and I bought a company called Polycraft Industries. We print on flexible packaging and we grew our business very fast. But then we felt like the wheels were falling off the bus and I complained to anybody that would listen. That's when a friend told us about the EOS. So that's the entrepreneurial operating system that you implement in your business and it helps you get clarity around your vision, accountability and a healthy culture. So we implemented EOS. \n\nI really wanted to be the implementer, but then we were like you can't be a dentist on your own teeth, right? Because that's really behavioral science. So about three years in, we hired somebody else to do it for us. Three years in, my husband comes out and he's like you know, my life got to a point where we actually have more time, we're enjoying life, we're not feeling overwhelmed by the business why don't you go and become an implementer? And so I took him seriously and I went and I did it. \n\nI've learned since then that you never take visionaries very seriously, but that process I discovered that I'm a visionary too. But when I looked at all my clients, I saw all these similarities and I was like gosh, this feels like they all have compulsive personalities. In some of the stuff that I've been doing over the years was coaching spouses of addicts in codependence recovery. So I was like this is interesting. Those entrepreneurs seem very similar to the addicts and then their COOs seem to be having all the traits of the spouses. Like what's going on here? Right, I dug in there, did some research. Huge fan of Dr Douglas Brackman's book Driven have you read book Driven? \n\nStuart: no, but I'm adding it to the list now you better add it to the list. \n\nRachel: So Dr Douglas writes in his introduction and he expounds in his book about people that are driven have a genetic mutation. It's the d2d4 alias that's mutated, which means that their brain doesn't register dopamine hits. So they're constantly looking for more and more because they're not getting the message that they've had enough does that that like make sense for you with driven people yeah, and without sending this into a therapy session. \n\nStuart: Then there's a number of things. So I've got two hats. I'm kind of the I see myself as the visionary implementer on 90 minute books because the the initial idea we were delivering to dean's clients as part of new information, which is Dean's business. But I wanted to spin it out into a separate company because I saw the potential and the scope. So for 90 Minute Books I kind of see myself as that visionary implementer side. But my natural background and tendency is as an implementer and on the new information side. So the kind of other hat that I wear is running the operations for Dean on the new information side and the way you've described that relationship and those tendencies is almost identical. So, yeah, that definitely resonates. \n\nRachel: Yeah, the thing with the visionaries is like they have a moving goalpost. So it's like if they wanted 10 million, they want 20. And then when they reach about 17, they're like, what 20? We want 50. You know, enough is never enough. They live in what's called a narcissistic fantasy, which is this fantasy of when I will get that, I will be happy, I will be content. And then they get close to that, and then they realize contentment is not there and they push it. It's not a bad thing if it's managed well. \n\nThat's what the great innovators in our world are, like Elon Musk and all those great driven entrepreneurs right, but what happens is they leave these big trails of smoke behind them because they view anybody that's coming in the way of their goal as a threat. And they have big personalities. They have strong personalities and they mow them down. So suddenly we see COOs that have been so strong and confident losing their confidence and shrinking in their seats. They start being yes, people. They start not being able to challenge a visionary, pushing back. They start losing their sense of self, forgetting what their passions are. They start becoming resentful and lonely, and I'm seeing this again and again. It's like an epidemic that nobody's talking about. \n\nSo then I said, what if I took all those tools of healing and confidence from codependence and I brought it into the business world and I helped COOs level up, because you know, at the end of the day, anybody that's in a relationship doesn't want to be in a relationship with somebody that is needy, doubting themselves and burned out right. \n\nYou want somebody that's assertive, decisive and discerning, and I always tell COOs that they have to get a little bit of ADD, and it's not the visionary type of ADD, it's assertiveness, decision and discernment. So this leads to I am a eos implementer right now. I am the founder of empower too, so I help coos get out of that rut. And I also opened something called the driven spouse forum and that's a forum for spouses of driven entrepreneurs. Because it's really all and the same, at the end we're dealing with the same, what I call relationship math, and this is the relationship math of having a driven visionary and anybody that they attract falling into that codependence trap it's interesting that bridge between, regardless of what the relationship is, but the relationships are, to varying degrees, suffering from the same psychological challenges. \n\nStuart: Do you know anyone else who has made that connection? I mean, geez, I'm 48, I've been in this world for like 15 years and it's the first time I've ever heard anyone make those connections in that way. Do you know of anyone else teaching things in a similar way, or is this a pretty unique and novel approach? \n\nRachel: in the business world. I have not seen anybody address codependent in the business workplace. I have. So I have a great friend, christy clayton, and she's the founder of the fem community, female integrated mastermind, and she's coming out with her own book. But and we talk a lot and we have a lot of similarities her experience is coming from pure experience, mine is coming from the background of codependence so I made that psychological connection. \n\nStuart: But I don't know anybody else that actually made that psychological connection yeah, I think the experience that you bring to it, having traveled through journeys and seeing those, those real-life examples in lots of different situations. \n\nAgain, it just helps you fill in the gaps between the kind of academic work that you've done and the experience that other people see and the your personal experience real, interesting way of bringing it together, the trying not to make this too much of a personal conversation because lots of questions are jumping to mind, but it's all about our particular situation, coming to it from an EOS perspective, the idea that that relationship between visionaries and implementers and the dynamic, the EOS model we don't have EOS in the business, but I'm pretty familiar with it. \n\nWe've got a number of friends and clients who are in that world that relationship is relatively structured and framework-based. Does that allow for bringing in this personal dynamic into that framework? Is there a very close correlation with the people who naturally gravitate towards EOS and those who would also recognize the psychological challenges and then there's a an appetite for those people to address them, or is it, is it more that those people who are looking for frameworks and the answers are still a little bit type a, focused in that structural and this is drifting across into an area that they're either not willing to or not yet able to address? What's your experience with people's receptiveness to? \n\nRachel: so I want to create some clarity. So there's visionaries. Then there is integrators. It's not implementers are the people like me, like I'm a coach that comes in sometimes. Integrators are self-implementing, so you can go and implement alone eos in your business and that's usually the integrator. Because the integrator? Because the integrator. \n\nSo here's what a visionary is. Visionary is founder usually. Okay, ceo drives the company vision. They have the big ideas. They have 20 ideas. 15 are almost probably really bad, okay, really good. They are low on follow-through. They're high on quick start. Like if your audience knows about Colby, you know visionaries're high on quick start. Like if your audience knows about Colby, you know visionaries are high on quick start. They just start projects but they never finish. \n\nIntegrators are usually high on follow-through. They don't have that need to constantly do something different and move. You know worlds and all that. They're very good, they're very logical. So what happens is I would say like there is a plenty of the world that have integrators, some of integrator capabilities. What happens is what I realized is you get in the room as an implementer and you're like who wants to be integrator? And there's this one person that raises their hand. That person usually has some kind of history of enablement and codependence, because nobody willingly wants to put themselves in a position to just like be the one to bring another vision into reality and run and it's chaotic. So what happens is there are healthy integrators but there's. I think research is like only 2.5% of the world's integrators are actually healthy enough to qualify as integrators. Why is that? Because of all the people that have high follow-through, only 2.5 percent are assertive, decisive and discerning. So what that means is integrators often get crushed by visionaries. The visionary is like I'm telling you the sky is purple today. And they're like no, it's not purple. And they're like I'm telling you it's purple, you, it's purple. And then the integrator is like fine, it's purple, right, that is not a strong integrator. A strong integrator would go and say you think the sky is purple, show me evidence, let's go outside together, right? And then like oh, that looks purple to you, that's's interesting, to me it looks blue. \n\nWhat happens so to be able to take a visionary's idea and bring self-awareness back to the visionary? Because somebody that is in that narcissistic fantasy they're running after a goal has very little self-awareness. They don't see themselves, they don't see the words. They talk so fast, things come so fast they don't remember what they say, they don't even like it doesn't mean that much to them. But if you put it back in their plate, they now have to think. \n\nSo when I sit with teams and a visionary is like, yeah, we can double our company by next year, integrator says it's not possible. I said I teach integrator. That is not the way to bring logic to the visionary. You got to talk to the visionary and the visionary's language. So you talk to the visionary, you say help me understand, how do we double? And he's going to say well, if we do X, y, z, then if we open up a whole new division and we buy 10 new trucks, then we should be able to double. So then'm like okay, so how long does it take to get to 10 new trucks? Well, last time took us about five months. How many people do we need per track? How long does it take to hire each person? And then suddenly they're like, oh, this doesn't make sense, right? And then they're like I don't think we can double, but we can definitely grow 20. And then everybody's like yeah, well, you can grow 20 percent. \n\nStuart: We get on board yeah, yeah, you circle around the edges of the debate to land on something that's a bit more realistic without coming across as negative. I remember that from rocket fuel talking about integrate, integrators, to put it my words, integrators being often seen as the negative person because always bringing the logic to the situation which comes across to people who are fast moving as bringing up challenges and objections. That element is that part of the relationship dynamic, of getting to the next level, deeper in their relationship and getting past it. Does that come into the yeah. \n\nRachel: So, going back to your original question, what happens is, I think, in in companies that are not running in eos, there is so much mercury that they don't even have clear definitions of what a visionary is and what an integrator is. Once you create that clarity around visionary integrator, then the integrator can suddenly fall into this codependence trap because they still don't have clarity on what the real healthy looks like. As EOS implementers, we help our clients get three things vision, traction and healthy. Healthy is literally emotional intelligence, right. So what happens is what you're talking about. \n\nIntegrators are seen as negative. That's because they're not exercising the ability to become the visionary's best friend, to show them how they are not an obstacle but they are there to help them and bring their visions into reality. If you as an integrator are constantly saying no, you are seen as a threat. If you say yes and or help me understand I say in my book I'm writing about that I say no is a cop out. No is when your child says can I have a lolly? And you say no. Yes, and is your child says I want a lolly, you say I wish I can give you a lolly, but it's 12 o'clock at night and you don't want holes in your teeth Right and then the child's like, no, that's a bad idea. \n\nStuart: That connection of the work that you do and the overlap with EOS. How much of it is a requirement for them, for your ideal client, to have a founding understanding of that model, because it's a baseline of understanding for you to then develop and help people get even more healthy, is it? I mean it is, but I have a particular visit to non-EOS people. Obviously it is, but are they just not aware of, do they not have enough understanding to appreciate the benefits? \n\nRachel: It's not a requirement at all. I have many clients that are CEOs and they don't run an EOS. They've never heard of EOS. \n\nI keep it totally separate. The problem is deeper in the companies that don't have EOS, but the remedy is still the same. The issue is still the same. If you have EOS, it helps you. You're halfway there on the structure, on the company, on getting accountability, but as a relationship it's like marriage counseling. This is like it has nothing to do with EOS. \n\nEos uses the term visionary integrator, but in a company not running an eos, it's first and second in command ceo, ceo, right. So ceos often feel crushed. They feel like I don't have what it takes to stand back, what? Or they become so enmeshed that they have no life outside of their business, of the business, and the business is not even theirs. And then the sales and they're left without a job, no payout, and this person made millions. \n\nI've spoken to so many people around that and that's because those coos are forgetting about themselves, creating a vision for themselves. What do they want? So when I work with co, what I do is I help them learn effective communication skills. So that's assertiveness. So, again, nothing to do with EOS. You can use assertiveness no matter where you are right. Assertiveness is helping them understand what they want, establish boundaries. Boundaries is a big deal in a CEO-CO relationship, being able to understand that you cannot change the other person and that having boundaries is a healthy thing and will help you grow the business not taking on other people's work. So I'm seeing a lot of COOs saying yes to their leadership team and then suddenly they're piled with a bunch of work on their desk that is beyond beneath their unique ability, right. So I help COOs find out what their unique ability is so they understand where their strengths are, so they can delegate everything else. \n\nI help them figure out what's their leadership style like. What type of leader do you want to be? I help them figure out how they can mitigate resentment by creating a self-care plan. Many COOs neglect themselves, their self-care. They want visionaries taking time off, going on vacations. And they're looking and they say why can't I do that? When will I get that? Secretly, I know all the COOs listening on this will not admit that to their visionaries. But I know secretly you are thinking you're saying when will I experience that? And the answer is who said you can't? \n\nThe problem is, if you believe that you need to control everything and do everything yourself and you don't delegate, you will never be able to take a day off. But I'm telling you, the best COOs take as much time off as CEOs. They just know how to do it well. They delegate, they have a sense of self. They're not threatened or afraid they'll lose their job because they know how much their value is, because they know what their unique ability is right. So help them level up in that way and then, when you have that, you can tap back into your gift of intuition. That's discernment. That is what an integrator has, that a visionary does not have. That's the logic. That's being able to take all these ideas, separate the truth and the facts from the feelings. What's emotional? What do we really need to do? Look at the data, match it up and the facts from the feelings. What's emotional? What do we really need to do? Look at the data, match it up and make great decisions. \n\nStuart: Those elements, do you find that there's one that stands out more than the others? Is there a commonality of people really struggling with the decisiveness around what they want, or the assertiveness element and being able to communicate it? Does it skew majority to one way and then there's a long tail of the other elements, or is each case really? \n\nRachel: I see two things that I see a lot is co's falling into being passive aggressive. So there are four types of communication. There's being passive, which is like letting the world, you know, do its thing and you're not interjecting, right, you're just sitting there. Passive aggressive is saying I have no needs, denying your own needs and acknowledging the other person's needs, which creates resentment. When a CEO sits in a meeting and says, whatever you guys want, I don't care, and like I guess it's me again, I guess I have to fire him, all these passive, aggressive remarks are resentment that's festering and it's a way of saying I have no needs, you have all the needs. \n\nNow what happens is when a girl gets extremely resentful, they become aggressive. And aggressive is saying you have needs, only I have needs. And that's when they say well, I'm the CEO and I'm going to tell you what to do. And they say to the visionary and sometimes I see where businesses you can't tell who's the visionary because the CEO became so controlling, because they're like I'm the CEO and they feel like the weight of the world is on their shoulder and they have to keep this train train running and the pressure is too much for them. Or, on the other hand, I see COOs turning passive and then they become like just an executive assistant. So they lose their solid sense of self and they just do whatever their visionary wants. They have no discernment, they make no decisions. \n\nSure, you want to take out all the money today, we'll take it out. You want to invest in somebody else? Sure. You want to hire? Sure, you want to fire? Sure. And suddenly this business is going on this train and everybody else is getting very confused and you start losing morale. Everything gets bottlenecked in the COO because we're waiting for the COO to make a move and they become very slow at making moves because they're doubting themselves. \n\nThe best form of communication is assertiveness. Assertiveness is acknowledging the other person's need and your own need and then staying centered and doing what's best for the situation. The situation is the greater good of the company. Now, if you're not running an EOS, you don't know what the greater good of the company. Now, if you're not running an EOS, you don't know what the greater good of the company is. Maybe you've never sat down and created a VTO, right, but you can still have that conversation. So when your visionary says I want to take out X amount of money because I want to do that. You look at them and you say I hear you and that's probably very important to you, but where we're standing right now, that's probably very important to you, but where we're standing right now, if you take out that money, we won't have payroll. Do you still want to do that? \n\nAnd I'm concerned about that. I'm concerned about my people, I'm concerned about my own paycheck. Now that visionary can make a better decision because it's depersonalized, it's acknowledging most people are looking for validation. That's the only thing they are looking for, right? The problem with COOs is, by the way and I'm going off tangent here is that COOs are looking for external validations. Well, why are that way? Why, because you know, when COOs tell me this all the time, they only feel that they had a good day or they're doing a good job well done, if the visionary tells them so. They depend. Their validation and their self-assurance depends on what their visionary communicates. So if the visionary gave them a compliment that day, they're high. If the visionary was angry because their wife yelled at them and they came into work, then now the CEO isn't a bad man. \n\nAnd what I teach those CEOs is you can't let the visionary be your puppeteer. That's how I complete the book and I say who's your puppeteer? Because you need to know your self-worth. You need to know that you're doing a good job, no matter on which wavelength the visionary is today. And if you have the right systems in place, then you can have data to back up and know that you're doing a great job, right. We have a scorecard. If you have accountability, if your rocks are being met and your goals, then you shouldn't be doubting yourself, right? \n\nSo that's the number one thing that I see that CEOs fall into. Do this passive, aggressive or passive trap? The second thing is that I see them trying to pre-empt situations, trying to solve people's problems before they even have a problem. They feel that they must anticipate people's needs and that they have to solve other people's problems. And the truth is a real COO teaches a person how to fish instead of giving them a fish. They're great. \n\nSo they never solve their people's problems, they just ask the right questions. So what I do with my clients, I sometimes put them on a word diet, I call it, and that is, I give them a challenge that they can offer the next X amount of time and they pick one person to practice with, or maybe we decide on what the framework is. They can only ask questions and they cannot give answers. They cannot give solutions, and that's when they really have to get good at asking good questions, because you got to get the other person to come up with an answer themselves, and when somebody comes out up with their own solution. You create buy-in right. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nRachel: It's not the integrator telling you what to do. You came up with this, so you're more than happy to do that. You know, my son's principal has this policy that when kids fight or anybody gets into trouble, he calls them into their office and he asks them what do you think your punishment should be? So if a child chooses attention, he's not going to protest against it because he chose his punishment right, like you said he's buying to the outcome exactly. \n\nWell, my kid says well, I think I shouldn't get a punishment. So then the person says well, how am I supposed to let you go back to the class? Or what am I supposed to say to the other child? \n\nStuart: now that feels very hurt right so then he says well, and I guess I need to say I'm sorry right, yeah he got from him what he needed yeah because he stood on asking questions right, that kind of drilling down to the real, the real meaningful difference, the outcome of the solution that really makes a difference and it's not just a surface level punishment or a quick answer to a problem and then move on to the next thing. That's getting down to the real difference, which comes from asking questions, is a pretty big difference maker. How am I trying to ask the idea that COOs have this discerning element that makes them good for the job in the first place? But a lot of that discernment, as you said, only 2.5% of them are effective or healthy, as they could be. So a lot of that discernment maybe comes from discerning the answer to a problem rather than discerning the questions to get to an answer. So I think there is, as you said, a tendency to fix yourself and not delegate as much as you could do. \n\nRachel: It's misplaced discernment and what happens is when COOs learn how to recalibrate that they are less stressed out and used up and burned out, because it takes much more effort to come up with ideas than to ask great questions. And COOs are so burnt out because they're doing everybody's work, so you're doing less of the heavy lifting because you don't have to follow through, because you're not the one that came up with the idea yeah, and going back to the example of the kids and the kids fighting, the people are bought into the solution because it's their idea. \n\nStuart: It is such a short-term, short-termism thinking. It's the quicker route to just give the idea and fix the problem and move on. But it's interesting you're taking like that. It's a. It's just a different skill the skill of answering the questions and the skill of asking the right questions. Someone with a tendency to discernment could do both. It's just the default. The path that's kind of built into our brains is to do their answering rather than asking could do both. It's just the default. The path that's kind of built into our brains is to do the answering rather than asking. \n\nAs I say, it's always a risk of this turning into a therapy session rather than sharing the sharing the ideas with the rest of the audience. But this is fascinating, in part, I think, because it's just hitting home and resonating personally as we're talking about it. But also this idea that there's small tweaks to the way that you work can lead to such greater outcomes and that kind of pivot point and ending up in a much better situation. Many of the COOs that you work with. So, as you mentioned, not all of them, or even a small part of them. \n\nAt EOS, where the visionary is brought in as well, for the COOs that you're working with, is there any conflict with the visionary in that relationship? Are they there? Is there a concern that the CEOs are trying to do something that's at odds if the visionary is comfortable with how it is in the moment because they're ticking along and doing work in the way that they've worked? Is there a barrier to get started with the CEOs who work with because of the environment that they're in? Do they need to put on their big boy, big girl pants and decide that this is something that they need? \n\nRachel: to address before they actually get started. So sometimes it's a two-part sale. Sometimes it's the COO comes and they're strong enough and they have a healthy enough relationship to that the CEO acknowledges that the CEO could use coaching. You know the world is all into coaching CEOs right now. There's masterminds, like you know Dan Sullivan, strategic Coach, genius Network, vistage, eo. I mean unending right. How many masterminds do you know for COOs? The other thing is we you know a great CEO visionary will say, yeah, sure, get yourself coaching now. \n\nThe problem is that 90 of the coaches that are out there are executive coaches that cater to visionary thinking. They've not cracked the code of how do you? The wiring of a coo is very different now when you take a coo and I've spoken to many COOs that went to the wrong coaches it's like when spouses of addicts went to addiction specialists and they sat and they're like you don't get me, this is not my problem, I don't want to be amped up more. I am just like looking for a boost of self-confidence. Most visionaries don't need a boost of self-confidence in that way right. \n\nAnd most visionaries didn't lose their sense of self because they've built huge businesses around their sense of self. They take their mission statement and they hire 500 people around it, right? Coos lose their sense of self and to be able to coach a COO, you need to understand their wiring. So I don't know really how many COO coaches are out there that are actually specialists in this and understand the wiring and are qualified to do this coaching. So when a COO reaches out to me, they've usually already had the conversation. If not, I offer to get on a conversation with a visionary and I use the tools that I use, that I teach my CEO clients, which is talking to visionaries in their language, showing them the win, showing them how threatened by their COO leveling up. I just look at the COO and I tell them now you know Right. They're like what do you want to do? \n\nStuart: There's no avoidance of what the situation is. The choice is, then, stark and in front of you Either continue, but it's not going to change, right. \n\nRachel: It's like staying in a marriage where one spouse doesn't want to go for therapy. So you ask your spouse to go for therapy. Your spouse says no. What are your choices? Either you tolerate it or you leave. And I'm like now you know? Now the good thing is, if you work with me, I can help you find your unique ability and strengthen your confidence so that you feel confident enough to leave and go somewhere else, because you know what you're worth yeah, yeah, which? \n\nStuart: that is a resolution as well. I mean getting past whatever elements are keeping you in a bad situation, whether it's in the marriage sense or in the business sense. It's still an awareness and if the only thing that you've got control over is you making those changes, whatever the outcome is, it still changes for the better. Sometimes, when we're talking to people about the idea of creating a book as a lead generation tool, as a business building tool, it's that there isn't unique ideas. People get a bit hung up on this idea of needing to create something absolutely unique to put out there, but oftentimes a financial advisor, for example there's not too many completely unique schemes that can be set up. It's a relatively fixed framework. \n\nYou're at the opposite end of the spectrum, bringing together this relatively unique idea in the way that you're bringing it together as the jumping off point for the conversation is that this information doesn't exist out there in the world in this way. That you're bringing it together as the jumping off point for the conversation is that this information doesn't exist out there in the world in this way. So that's obviously the purpose for bringing it together, but the idea of using the book as to introduce the idea to more people? Did you come to the book project knowing that you wanted to use it in a particular way, or was it a case of here's the ideas that are in different places? In the way that I work, I wanted to bring them together and then see how to use it. Was it a tap to the ideas first or a definite way of using it first? \n\nRachel: Yeah, oh, that's a good question. So I wanted to write this book for a while and because I'm a visionary at heart, my follow through is not very high, so I just kept on starting, stopping. And then I read Diane Sullivan's book, the Four Seas, and he mentioned the book and I was like, oh shoot, I don't have to do it myself. That's awesome. I ended up doing this transcript and then rewriting the whole book, but it gave me a framework. It gave me a really good for it was that start. \n\nI always like my website. I told my website designer when you give me a word document that has words on it, I can't see what this is going to be. I said cut anything up, publish it, I'll look at it and I'll tell you how I want to change it. So the idea of this book was literally to do like a tell all and put this information out there in the world. Working with 90 minute book gave me this idea of like hey, this is lead generation, create outcomes, create three. What do you call it? Call action yeah, yeah. \n\nI wasn't. That wasn't originally my plan to create the call to action. I figured like I'll put that book out there, I'll talk about it to people that I know on, you know, social media, and people will buy the book. But I didn't connect it to lead generation. So then the book got stalled a little longer because I had to go set up a website and get everything in place so that when the book publishes it does lead to somewhere. \n\nStuart: So now I'm super excited. \n\nRachel: I set up a website. I'm working on a course, a self-paced course that you take online workshops, one-on-one coaching, which is really exciting. So I really appreciate that you guys pushed for that angle, you know. \n\nStuart: Right, it does give it. We talk a lot about the idea of traditional books versus conversation starting books and they have 90% of benefits crossover in terms of authority and credibility and putting the idea out there. But the downside to traditional books is that model is the book is the product, and the whole world is around book sales and the book being the thing, whereas for the rest of us, real business owners, where the conversation is the outcome, the conversation is the thing that we're trying to get to and the book is just a mechanism, a very effective mechanism, for starting that conversation. So it's just those little switches that change 5% maybe of the content, but at least it leads people in a path to help them get to that next step which ultimately leads to jumping on a call or whatever the discovery step is. \n\nRachel: Yeah, it totally changed for me, because I'm not planning to make any money off the book, I think, because what I'm going to do is print a bunch of copies, put them into pretty boxes and ship them to people. And it's a good gift to give to people, it's a good thing to bring to shows. It's the business card. \n\nStuart: Yeah, exactly, and those models if you've got. We talk sometimes about invisible audiences versus visible audiences, so invisible audiences, it's difficult to buy a list of people with knee pain because that list just doesn't exist in that way. But it is possible to get a list of COOs. So the book exists. Now you can change the format of it, do hardcover versions, put those in a box If you were trying to target, like line fish, some individual, specific people. The opportunity to do that now that it exists, changing the format, changing the context in which you use it. There's a lot more opportunity now that it exists. \n\nOne question I know that we're running up on time. It's turning into a standing joke at the end of all these podcasts I'd say how quick time goes, but it always catches me out. One question, and again probably from a personal perspective the implement, the integrator personality type of the element of kind of fact-based discernment, however good that is, and the visionary personality type of really driving something forwards almost to the exclusion of logic or sense, at the extremes of both of them. What's the? Do you have any advice for someone who is naturally in that integrator space, that's the, the thought process, but is also responsible for the visionary side of driving an idea forward and is very on board with the idea, has the vision, but what's the? You were talking about the having a different definition of add, but what are the elements of the visionary that are useful for a integrated based organization more than a visionary based organization? \n\nRachel: okay, so why do you think you need to change anything? \n\nStuart: Well, okay, so our organization? So okay, the example is me, so our organization is the product that we've got, I think, is very good because it sits in the nice sweet spot of very effective and not getting too carried away in the best seller BS of something that's not really effective. We've been doing this for 13 years now. There are a number of competitors around that external view first and internal view second. I think my natural head is the other way around internal first and external second, which is great from an operational point of view. But I mean that has its limit. There still needs to be more push on the outside. So very selfishly, I'm saying what? How many times I have to tap myself on this part of my head to get into switching into more of that external, that visionary forget about the operational side and into the driven side? \n\nRachel: is it that the business is not going fast enough? \n\nStuart: yeah, I think there's, yeah, two elements one it's the generally the growth and two, it's almost a little bit of the. When we started this, we were the only game in town at this end, this part of the spectrum. But now there's lots of people doing it in a more external way now, operationally, I don't know what they're, whether it is better or not, but still, whether or not there is a problem externally, I think that the I feel that there is a problem internally, that my natural tendency. If I get to the end of the day and didn't have the reminder to do something external, I would have focused all internally. So there, there seems to be a visionary trait that I'm missing that would be good to pick up on. I'm guessing that I'm not alone in that. \n\nRachel: I know, okay, I get it, I hear you so. So this is what I sometimes see that people that have more integrated traits, their businesses, don't grow that fast. Because you want an insurance policy for every step you're going to take. You're more free, you're more risk averse. And then when I sit with these teams, what happens is something I observed is visionary goes and says I want to make 10 million the next two years. Integrator says that's not possible because they're looking from where they go today. The visionary looks where I want to be and then they work their way back. So being more visionary is saying you know, when I sit with teams and I want to set their goals, they're like why don't we set 90 day goals before a 10 year goal? Because then I said, because that's when you want to go to Florida, you might end up in Canada. \n\nRight, if you sit down, I say what's that ultimate goal? What do I want? And don't get distracted by what others should ands like what other people want for you. It sounds like you're stuck in that typical coo space where you're worried about what other people want for you instead of what you really want for yourself, and maybe you are perfectly okay with a type, a kind of business. You're just feeling, you know I don't know what the word is, but you're feeling like, oh, I should be doing x because everybody is doing x, right. So asking yourself, what do I truly want? What does that look like in 10 years? And then saying what do I need to do today to get there? Gets you more of that external view. If you're saying, I want 1 million viewers in 10 years, great, what do you have to do today? So you're going to have to start talking to different types of people and doing different types of activities, because it changes your trajectory. \n\nAnd that's the difference between COOs and visionaries. And now a COO asked me how do visionaries take so much risk? And the answer is by the time they take that risk, they've mitigated all the other risk. So visionaries make calculations and decisions so fast that when they decide that they're going to jump in, what looks like a risk for you is already a mitigated risk for them Because they've calculated all the possible outcomes. They've decided that they are okay with taking that leap. Like, if they take a 10 million dollar risk, they've calculated how they're going to lose it, how they're going to make it back, what's going to happen if they lose the 10 million? They're sitting with it. They're okay to lose the 10 million, versus a ceo thinks of taking a 10 million dollar risk. \n\nStuart: They think they're gonna die right yeah so maybe yeah, that's an interesting thought, that idea of there's so many ideas and on the next, that the mitigation is almost that the next idea has popped in and is already crowding for space. Yeah, that's interesting way of looking at it. This has been fantastic really. Personally, and I think the people who are on the list that we send the email notification out to there's a big crossover between this cohort of people. So I think this unique idea and way of thinking about it no matter which side of the visionary integrated fence they are, or even if those words don't mean anything, but still the setup in the organization, whether they're a real estate agent who's responsible for their own book, or in a larger organization, there's still elements of this I think are really going to resonate. I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and the book, and what's a good place for people to head over to to find out more? \n\nRachel: So they can go to www.empoweredcoo.com and all the information is on there. They can find me on LinkedIn. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Make sure to report all the links to the places in the show notes so as people are listening on, they'll be in the podcast player or if people are on the website, there'll be a link there. It'd be great to circle back in a few months and see how the books go in the reception. Once it kind of comes to that, join together and finalize what the reception is out there, because I think it's going to be really kind of game changing for a lot of people. So if you're up for it, it'd be really great to get back later in the year yeah, I created an online free assessment that will show you on a scale of being empowered. \n\nRachel: You know, visionaries on the positive side, integrators on the negative side. The assessment is for integrators. It's from negative five to negative zero, so negative five is very enmeshed, very codependent. Negative zero, center focus self. You know, situation focused. I've been talking about it a little bit. I've got a lot of people that have already taken the assessment, so people are waiting for the book to come out. \n\nI'm just a stickler and I wanted it to be perfect. So I'm putting the last finishing touches and hopefully it'll be out in the next few weeks yeah, and that's the thing I mean. \n\nStuart: that's the other good thing about this model is guaranteed. In two months time you'll see something else that you want to change and from the feedback that you get, there might be some deeper diving and elaboration that you want to put in there based on that feedback. But at least that's an option here and you can make all those changes at any point in the future. But I know what you mean about wanting to get that first one out of the gate as good as possible. Rachel, really appreciate the time Everyone listening. I'll put the links in the show notes to the website and Rachel's LinkedIn page, so definitely follow across there and then, yeah, we'll circle back in a few months and see where it's landing for people. \n\nRachel: Thank you so much, Stuart, for having me. This was a blast. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Thanks, rachel. Thanks everyone for listening. We'll catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Rachel Lebowitz, EOS Implementor and COO coach, about the challenges leaders face and the ideas she brings together in her new book, The Empowered COO.
\n\nRachel brings a wealth of experience to her work. From helping scale her family's business to working with a wide range of organizations as an EOS Implementor to her training in relationship and codependency management, she shares her expertise in aligning big thinkers and their COOs. We explore the paradox of a visionary "addiction" to ideas and a COO's need to assert boundaries.
\n\nThis episode is a treasure trove of practical strategies, especially for those in COO or Integrator roles. Rachel's belief in COOs communicating their value beyond executing details is a key takeaway. We also delve into strategies for empowerment through delegation and questioning skills, providing some actionable insights.
\n\nHer approach is pretty unique, addressing both the strategies and the underlying issues of working across personality types. Her personal experience helps to illustrate the challenges felt by many, if not all, in a COO role.
\n\nWe wrapping up delving into some of the benefits of using a conversation-starting book to introduce an idea into a conversation going on in the minds of the people you can best help.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/166
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Rachel Lebowitz Contact Information:
\nWebsite:Empowered COO
\nLinkedIn:Rachel Lebowitz
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nThe problem is that 90% of the coaches that are out there are executive coaches that cater to visionary thinking.
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today I have a great guest with us, Rachel Lebowitz. Rachel, how are you doing?
\n\nRachel: Hi Stuart, thank you so much for having me. I know this is going to be fun.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. It's always interesting. The last week's show that I recorded was with a guy called David DePula who I know pretty well. We've had lots of conversations outside of just the book, but you and I haven't had a chance to catch up yet. So it's always interesting to kind of do the discovery at the same time that people are hearing about on the show. So I'm interested to dive a little bit deeper. Why don't you start by giving a bit of background on you and what you do and kind of set the scene for the audience?
\n\nRachel: Sure. So I grew up in a family business and a big family. My parents owned a business and I think I started working from the age of 10. I was punching a time card and I think by 12 or 13, I asked for a raise because you've got to ask for a raise. But the most important part of working in a family business was observing how employees acted very differently when the boss was around versus not. And then I decided to go for a degree in business behavioral science.
\n\nFast forward many years. My husband and I bought a company called Polycraft Industries. We print on flexible packaging and we grew our business very fast. But then we felt like the wheels were falling off the bus and I complained to anybody that would listen. That's when a friend told us about the EOS. So that's the entrepreneurial operating system that you implement in your business and it helps you get clarity around your vision, accountability and a healthy culture. So we implemented EOS.
\n\nI really wanted to be the implementer, but then we were like you can't be a dentist on your own teeth, right? Because that's really behavioral science. So about three years in, we hired somebody else to do it for us. Three years in, my husband comes out and he's like you know, my life got to a point where we actually have more time, we're enjoying life, we're not feeling overwhelmed by the business why don't you go and become an implementer? And so I took him seriously and I went and I did it.
\n\nI've learned since then that you never take visionaries very seriously, but that process I discovered that I'm a visionary too. But when I looked at all my clients, I saw all these similarities and I was like gosh, this feels like they all have compulsive personalities. In some of the stuff that I've been doing over the years was coaching spouses of addicts in codependence recovery. So I was like this is interesting. Those entrepreneurs seem very similar to the addicts and then their COOs seem to be having all the traits of the spouses. Like what's going on here? Right, I dug in there, did some research. Huge fan of Dr Douglas Brackman's book Driven have you read book Driven?
\n\nStuart: no, but I'm adding it to the list now you better add it to the list.
\n\nRachel: So Dr Douglas writes in his introduction and he expounds in his book about people that are driven have a genetic mutation. It's the d2d4 alias that's mutated, which means that their brain doesn't register dopamine hits. So they're constantly looking for more and more because they're not getting the message that they've had enough does that that like make sense for you with driven people yeah, and without sending this into a therapy session.
\n\nStuart: Then there's a number of things. So I've got two hats. I'm kind of the I see myself as the visionary implementer on 90 minute books because the the initial idea we were delivering to dean's clients as part of new information, which is Dean's business. But I wanted to spin it out into a separate company because I saw the potential and the scope. So for 90 Minute Books I kind of see myself as that visionary implementer side. But my natural background and tendency is as an implementer and on the new information side. So the kind of other hat that I wear is running the operations for Dean on the new information side and the way you've described that relationship and those tendencies is almost identical. So, yeah, that definitely resonates.
\n\nRachel: Yeah, the thing with the visionaries is like they have a moving goalpost. So it's like if they wanted 10 million, they want 20. And then when they reach about 17, they're like, what 20? We want 50. You know, enough is never enough. They live in what's called a narcissistic fantasy, which is this fantasy of when I will get that, I will be happy, I will be content. And then they get close to that, and then they realize contentment is not there and they push it. It's not a bad thing if it's managed well.
\n\nThat's what the great innovators in our world are, like Elon Musk and all those great driven entrepreneurs right, but what happens is they leave these big trails of smoke behind them because they view anybody that's coming in the way of their goal as a threat. And they have big personalities. They have strong personalities and they mow them down. So suddenly we see COOs that have been so strong and confident losing their confidence and shrinking in their seats. They start being yes, people. They start not being able to challenge a visionary, pushing back. They start losing their sense of self, forgetting what their passions are. They start becoming resentful and lonely, and I'm seeing this again and again. It's like an epidemic that nobody's talking about.
\n\nSo then I said, what if I took all those tools of healing and confidence from codependence and I brought it into the business world and I helped COOs level up, because you know, at the end of the day, anybody that's in a relationship doesn't want to be in a relationship with somebody that is needy, doubting themselves and burned out right.
\n\nYou want somebody that's assertive, decisive and discerning, and I always tell COOs that they have to get a little bit of ADD, and it's not the visionary type of ADD, it's assertiveness, decision and discernment. So this leads to I am a eos implementer right now. I am the founder of empower too, so I help coos get out of that rut. And I also opened something called the driven spouse forum and that's a forum for spouses of driven entrepreneurs. Because it's really all and the same, at the end we're dealing with the same, what I call relationship math, and this is the relationship math of having a driven visionary and anybody that they attract falling into that codependence trap it's interesting that bridge between, regardless of what the relationship is, but the relationships are, to varying degrees, suffering from the same psychological challenges.
\n\nStuart: Do you know anyone else who has made that connection? I mean, geez, I'm 48, I've been in this world for like 15 years and it's the first time I've ever heard anyone make those connections in that way. Do you know of anyone else teaching things in a similar way, or is this a pretty unique and novel approach?
\n\nRachel: in the business world. I have not seen anybody address codependent in the business workplace. I have. So I have a great friend, christy clayton, and she's the founder of the fem community, female integrated mastermind, and she's coming out with her own book. But and we talk a lot and we have a lot of similarities her experience is coming from pure experience, mine is coming from the background of codependence so I made that psychological connection.
\n\nStuart: But I don't know anybody else that actually made that psychological connection yeah, I think the experience that you bring to it, having traveled through journeys and seeing those, those real-life examples in lots of different situations.
\n\nAgain, it just helps you fill in the gaps between the kind of academic work that you've done and the experience that other people see and the your personal experience real, interesting way of bringing it together, the trying not to make this too much of a personal conversation because lots of questions are jumping to mind, but it's all about our particular situation, coming to it from an EOS perspective, the idea that that relationship between visionaries and implementers and the dynamic, the EOS model we don't have EOS in the business, but I'm pretty familiar with it.
\n\nWe've got a number of friends and clients who are in that world that relationship is relatively structured and framework-based. Does that allow for bringing in this personal dynamic into that framework? Is there a very close correlation with the people who naturally gravitate towards EOS and those who would also recognize the psychological challenges and then there's a an appetite for those people to address them, or is it, is it more that those people who are looking for frameworks and the answers are still a little bit type a, focused in that structural and this is drifting across into an area that they're either not willing to or not yet able to address? What's your experience with people's receptiveness to?
\n\nRachel: so I want to create some clarity. So there's visionaries. Then there is integrators. It's not implementers are the people like me, like I'm a coach that comes in sometimes. Integrators are self-implementing, so you can go and implement alone eos in your business and that's usually the integrator. Because the integrator? Because the integrator.
\n\nSo here's what a visionary is. Visionary is founder usually. Okay, ceo drives the company vision. They have the big ideas. They have 20 ideas. 15 are almost probably really bad, okay, really good. They are low on follow-through. They're high on quick start. Like if your audience knows about Colby, you know visionaries're high on quick start. Like if your audience knows about Colby, you know visionaries are high on quick start. They just start projects but they never finish.
\n\nIntegrators are usually high on follow-through. They don't have that need to constantly do something different and move. You know worlds and all that. They're very good, they're very logical. So what happens is I would say like there is a plenty of the world that have integrators, some of integrator capabilities. What happens is what I realized is you get in the room as an implementer and you're like who wants to be integrator? And there's this one person that raises their hand. That person usually has some kind of history of enablement and codependence, because nobody willingly wants to put themselves in a position to just like be the one to bring another vision into reality and run and it's chaotic. So what happens is there are healthy integrators but there's. I think research is like only 2.5% of the world's integrators are actually healthy enough to qualify as integrators. Why is that? Because of all the people that have high follow-through, only 2.5 percent are assertive, decisive and discerning. So what that means is integrators often get crushed by visionaries. The visionary is like I'm telling you the sky is purple today. And they're like no, it's not purple. And they're like I'm telling you it's purple, you, it's purple. And then the integrator is like fine, it's purple, right, that is not a strong integrator. A strong integrator would go and say you think the sky is purple, show me evidence, let's go outside together, right? And then like oh, that looks purple to you, that's's interesting, to me it looks blue.
\n\nWhat happens so to be able to take a visionary's idea and bring self-awareness back to the visionary? Because somebody that is in that narcissistic fantasy they're running after a goal has very little self-awareness. They don't see themselves, they don't see the words. They talk so fast, things come so fast they don't remember what they say, they don't even like it doesn't mean that much to them. But if you put it back in their plate, they now have to think.
\n\nSo when I sit with teams and a visionary is like, yeah, we can double our company by next year, integrator says it's not possible. I said I teach integrator. That is not the way to bring logic to the visionary. You got to talk to the visionary and the visionary's language. So you talk to the visionary, you say help me understand, how do we double? And he's going to say well, if we do X, y, z, then if we open up a whole new division and we buy 10 new trucks, then we should be able to double. So then'm like okay, so how long does it take to get to 10 new trucks? Well, last time took us about five months. How many people do we need per track? How long does it take to hire each person? And then suddenly they're like, oh, this doesn't make sense, right? And then they're like I don't think we can double, but we can definitely grow 20. And then everybody's like yeah, well, you can grow 20 percent.
\n\nStuart: We get on board yeah, yeah, you circle around the edges of the debate to land on something that's a bit more realistic without coming across as negative. I remember that from rocket fuel talking about integrate, integrators, to put it my words, integrators being often seen as the negative person because always bringing the logic to the situation which comes across to people who are fast moving as bringing up challenges and objections. That element is that part of the relationship dynamic, of getting to the next level, deeper in their relationship and getting past it. Does that come into the yeah.
\n\nRachel: So, going back to your original question, what happens is, I think, in in companies that are not running in eos, there is so much mercury that they don't even have clear definitions of what a visionary is and what an integrator is. Once you create that clarity around visionary integrator, then the integrator can suddenly fall into this codependence trap because they still don't have clarity on what the real healthy looks like. As EOS implementers, we help our clients get three things vision, traction and healthy. Healthy is literally emotional intelligence, right. So what happens is what you're talking about.
\n\nIntegrators are seen as negative. That's because they're not exercising the ability to become the visionary's best friend, to show them how they are not an obstacle but they are there to help them and bring their visions into reality. If you as an integrator are constantly saying no, you are seen as a threat. If you say yes and or help me understand I say in my book I'm writing about that I say no is a cop out. No is when your child says can I have a lolly? And you say no. Yes, and is your child says I want a lolly, you say I wish I can give you a lolly, but it's 12 o'clock at night and you don't want holes in your teeth Right and then the child's like, no, that's a bad idea.
\n\nStuart: That connection of the work that you do and the overlap with EOS. How much of it is a requirement for them, for your ideal client, to have a founding understanding of that model, because it's a baseline of understanding for you to then develop and help people get even more healthy, is it? I mean it is, but I have a particular visit to non-EOS people. Obviously it is, but are they just not aware of, do they not have enough understanding to appreciate the benefits?
\n\nRachel: It's not a requirement at all. I have many clients that are CEOs and they don't run an EOS. They've never heard of EOS.
\n\nI keep it totally separate. The problem is deeper in the companies that don't have EOS, but the remedy is still the same. The issue is still the same. If you have EOS, it helps you. You're halfway there on the structure, on the company, on getting accountability, but as a relationship it's like marriage counseling. This is like it has nothing to do with EOS.
\n\nEos uses the term visionary integrator, but in a company not running an eos, it's first and second in command ceo, ceo, right. So ceos often feel crushed. They feel like I don't have what it takes to stand back, what? Or they become so enmeshed that they have no life outside of their business, of the business, and the business is not even theirs. And then the sales and they're left without a job, no payout, and this person made millions.
\n\nI've spoken to so many people around that and that's because those coos are forgetting about themselves, creating a vision for themselves. What do they want? So when I work with co, what I do is I help them learn effective communication skills. So that's assertiveness. So, again, nothing to do with EOS. You can use assertiveness no matter where you are right. Assertiveness is helping them understand what they want, establish boundaries. Boundaries is a big deal in a CEO-CO relationship, being able to understand that you cannot change the other person and that having boundaries is a healthy thing and will help you grow the business not taking on other people's work. So I'm seeing a lot of COOs saying yes to their leadership team and then suddenly they're piled with a bunch of work on their desk that is beyond beneath their unique ability, right. So I help COOs find out what their unique ability is so they understand where their strengths are, so they can delegate everything else.
\n\nI help them figure out what's their leadership style like. What type of leader do you want to be? I help them figure out how they can mitigate resentment by creating a self-care plan. Many COOs neglect themselves, their self-care. They want visionaries taking time off, going on vacations. And they're looking and they say why can't I do that? When will I get that? Secretly, I know all the COOs listening on this will not admit that to their visionaries. But I know secretly you are thinking you're saying when will I experience that? And the answer is who said you can't?
\n\nThe problem is, if you believe that you need to control everything and do everything yourself and you don't delegate, you will never be able to take a day off. But I'm telling you, the best COOs take as much time off as CEOs. They just know how to do it well. They delegate, they have a sense of self. They're not threatened or afraid they'll lose their job because they know how much their value is, because they know what their unique ability is right. So help them level up in that way and then, when you have that, you can tap back into your gift of intuition. That's discernment. That is what an integrator has, that a visionary does not have. That's the logic. That's being able to take all these ideas, separate the truth and the facts from the feelings. What's emotional? What do we really need to do? Look at the data, match it up and the facts from the feelings. What's emotional? What do we really need to do? Look at the data, match it up and make great decisions.
\n\nStuart: Those elements, do you find that there's one that stands out more than the others? Is there a commonality of people really struggling with the decisiveness around what they want, or the assertiveness element and being able to communicate it? Does it skew majority to one way and then there's a long tail of the other elements, or is each case really?
\n\nRachel: I see two things that I see a lot is co's falling into being passive aggressive. So there are four types of communication. There's being passive, which is like letting the world, you know, do its thing and you're not interjecting, right, you're just sitting there. Passive aggressive is saying I have no needs, denying your own needs and acknowledging the other person's needs, which creates resentment. When a CEO sits in a meeting and says, whatever you guys want, I don't care, and like I guess it's me again, I guess I have to fire him, all these passive, aggressive remarks are resentment that's festering and it's a way of saying I have no needs, you have all the needs.
\n\nNow what happens is when a girl gets extremely resentful, they become aggressive. And aggressive is saying you have needs, only I have needs. And that's when they say well, I'm the CEO and I'm going to tell you what to do. And they say to the visionary and sometimes I see where businesses you can't tell who's the visionary because the CEO became so controlling, because they're like I'm the CEO and they feel like the weight of the world is on their shoulder and they have to keep this train train running and the pressure is too much for them. Or, on the other hand, I see COOs turning passive and then they become like just an executive assistant. So they lose their solid sense of self and they just do whatever their visionary wants. They have no discernment, they make no decisions.
\n\nSure, you want to take out all the money today, we'll take it out. You want to invest in somebody else? Sure. You want to hire? Sure, you want to fire? Sure. And suddenly this business is going on this train and everybody else is getting very confused and you start losing morale. Everything gets bottlenecked in the COO because we're waiting for the COO to make a move and they become very slow at making moves because they're doubting themselves.
\n\nThe best form of communication is assertiveness. Assertiveness is acknowledging the other person's need and your own need and then staying centered and doing what's best for the situation. The situation is the greater good of the company. Now, if you're not running an EOS, you don't know what the greater good of the company. Now, if you're not running an EOS, you don't know what the greater good of the company is. Maybe you've never sat down and created a VTO, right, but you can still have that conversation. So when your visionary says I want to take out X amount of money because I want to do that. You look at them and you say I hear you and that's probably very important to you, but where we're standing right now, that's probably very important to you, but where we're standing right now, if you take out that money, we won't have payroll. Do you still want to do that?
\n\nAnd I'm concerned about that. I'm concerned about my people, I'm concerned about my own paycheck. Now that visionary can make a better decision because it's depersonalized, it's acknowledging most people are looking for validation. That's the only thing they are looking for, right? The problem with COOs is, by the way and I'm going off tangent here is that COOs are looking for external validations. Well, why are that way? Why, because you know, when COOs tell me this all the time, they only feel that they had a good day or they're doing a good job well done, if the visionary tells them so. They depend. Their validation and their self-assurance depends on what their visionary communicates. So if the visionary gave them a compliment that day, they're high. If the visionary was angry because their wife yelled at them and they came into work, then now the CEO isn't a bad man.
\n\nAnd what I teach those CEOs is you can't let the visionary be your puppeteer. That's how I complete the book and I say who's your puppeteer? Because you need to know your self-worth. You need to know that you're doing a good job, no matter on which wavelength the visionary is today. And if you have the right systems in place, then you can have data to back up and know that you're doing a great job, right. We have a scorecard. If you have accountability, if your rocks are being met and your goals, then you shouldn't be doubting yourself, right?
\n\nSo that's the number one thing that I see that CEOs fall into. Do this passive, aggressive or passive trap? The second thing is that I see them trying to pre-empt situations, trying to solve people's problems before they even have a problem. They feel that they must anticipate people's needs and that they have to solve other people's problems. And the truth is a real COO teaches a person how to fish instead of giving them a fish. They're great.
\n\nSo they never solve their people's problems, they just ask the right questions. So what I do with my clients, I sometimes put them on a word diet, I call it, and that is, I give them a challenge that they can offer the next X amount of time and they pick one person to practice with, or maybe we decide on what the framework is. They can only ask questions and they cannot give answers. They cannot give solutions, and that's when they really have to get good at asking good questions, because you got to get the other person to come up with an answer themselves, and when somebody comes out up with their own solution. You create buy-in right.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nRachel: It's not the integrator telling you what to do. You came up with this, so you're more than happy to do that. You know, my son's principal has this policy that when kids fight or anybody gets into trouble, he calls them into their office and he asks them what do you think your punishment should be? So if a child chooses attention, he's not going to protest against it because he chose his punishment right, like you said he's buying to the outcome exactly.
\n\nWell, my kid says well, I think I shouldn't get a punishment. So then the person says well, how am I supposed to let you go back to the class? Or what am I supposed to say to the other child?
\n\nStuart: now that feels very hurt right so then he says well, and I guess I need to say I'm sorry right, yeah he got from him what he needed yeah because he stood on asking questions right, that kind of drilling down to the real, the real meaningful difference, the outcome of the solution that really makes a difference and it's not just a surface level punishment or a quick answer to a problem and then move on to the next thing. That's getting down to the real difference, which comes from asking questions, is a pretty big difference maker. How am I trying to ask the idea that COOs have this discerning element that makes them good for the job in the first place? But a lot of that discernment, as you said, only 2.5% of them are effective or healthy, as they could be. So a lot of that discernment maybe comes from discerning the answer to a problem rather than discerning the questions to get to an answer. So I think there is, as you said, a tendency to fix yourself and not delegate as much as you could do.
\n\nRachel: It's misplaced discernment and what happens is when COOs learn how to recalibrate that they are less stressed out and used up and burned out, because it takes much more effort to come up with ideas than to ask great questions. And COOs are so burnt out because they're doing everybody's work, so you're doing less of the heavy lifting because you don't have to follow through, because you're not the one that came up with the idea yeah, and going back to the example of the kids and the kids fighting, the people are bought into the solution because it's their idea.
\n\nStuart: It is such a short-term, short-termism thinking. It's the quicker route to just give the idea and fix the problem and move on. But it's interesting you're taking like that. It's a. It's just a different skill the skill of answering the questions and the skill of asking the right questions. Someone with a tendency to discernment could do both. It's just the default. The path that's kind of built into our brains is to do their answering rather than asking could do both. It's just the default. The path that's kind of built into our brains is to do the answering rather than asking.
\n\nAs I say, it's always a risk of this turning into a therapy session rather than sharing the sharing the ideas with the rest of the audience. But this is fascinating, in part, I think, because it's just hitting home and resonating personally as we're talking about it. But also this idea that there's small tweaks to the way that you work can lead to such greater outcomes and that kind of pivot point and ending up in a much better situation. Many of the COOs that you work with. So, as you mentioned, not all of them, or even a small part of them.
\n\nAt EOS, where the visionary is brought in as well, for the COOs that you're working with, is there any conflict with the visionary in that relationship? Are they there? Is there a concern that the CEOs are trying to do something that's at odds if the visionary is comfortable with how it is in the moment because they're ticking along and doing work in the way that they've worked? Is there a barrier to get started with the CEOs who work with because of the environment that they're in? Do they need to put on their big boy, big girl pants and decide that this is something that they need?
\n\nRachel: to address before they actually get started. So sometimes it's a two-part sale. Sometimes it's the COO comes and they're strong enough and they have a healthy enough relationship to that the CEO acknowledges that the CEO could use coaching. You know the world is all into coaching CEOs right now. There's masterminds, like you know Dan Sullivan, strategic Coach, genius Network, vistage, eo. I mean unending right. How many masterminds do you know for COOs? The other thing is we you know a great CEO visionary will say, yeah, sure, get yourself coaching now.
\n\nThe problem is that 90 of the coaches that are out there are executive coaches that cater to visionary thinking. They've not cracked the code of how do you? The wiring of a coo is very different now when you take a coo and I've spoken to many COOs that went to the wrong coaches it's like when spouses of addicts went to addiction specialists and they sat and they're like you don't get me, this is not my problem, I don't want to be amped up more. I am just like looking for a boost of self-confidence. Most visionaries don't need a boost of self-confidence in that way right.
\n\nAnd most visionaries didn't lose their sense of self because they've built huge businesses around their sense of self. They take their mission statement and they hire 500 people around it, right? Coos lose their sense of self and to be able to coach a COO, you need to understand their wiring. So I don't know really how many COO coaches are out there that are actually specialists in this and understand the wiring and are qualified to do this coaching. So when a COO reaches out to me, they've usually already had the conversation. If not, I offer to get on a conversation with a visionary and I use the tools that I use, that I teach my CEO clients, which is talking to visionaries in their language, showing them the win, showing them how threatened by their COO leveling up. I just look at the COO and I tell them now you know Right. They're like what do you want to do?
\n\nStuart: There's no avoidance of what the situation is. The choice is, then, stark and in front of you Either continue, but it's not going to change, right.
\n\nRachel: It's like staying in a marriage where one spouse doesn't want to go for therapy. So you ask your spouse to go for therapy. Your spouse says no. What are your choices? Either you tolerate it or you leave. And I'm like now you know? Now the good thing is, if you work with me, I can help you find your unique ability and strengthen your confidence so that you feel confident enough to leave and go somewhere else, because you know what you're worth yeah, yeah, which?
\n\nStuart: that is a resolution as well. I mean getting past whatever elements are keeping you in a bad situation, whether it's in the marriage sense or in the business sense. It's still an awareness and if the only thing that you've got control over is you making those changes, whatever the outcome is, it still changes for the better. Sometimes, when we're talking to people about the idea of creating a book as a lead generation tool, as a business building tool, it's that there isn't unique ideas. People get a bit hung up on this idea of needing to create something absolutely unique to put out there, but oftentimes a financial advisor, for example there's not too many completely unique schemes that can be set up. It's a relatively fixed framework.
\n\nYou're at the opposite end of the spectrum, bringing together this relatively unique idea in the way that you're bringing it together as the jumping off point for the conversation is that this information doesn't exist out there in the world in this way. That you're bringing it together as the jumping off point for the conversation is that this information doesn't exist out there in the world in this way. So that's obviously the purpose for bringing it together, but the idea of using the book as to introduce the idea to more people? Did you come to the book project knowing that you wanted to use it in a particular way, or was it a case of here's the ideas that are in different places? In the way that I work, I wanted to bring them together and then see how to use it. Was it a tap to the ideas first or a definite way of using it first?
\n\nRachel: Yeah, oh, that's a good question. So I wanted to write this book for a while and because I'm a visionary at heart, my follow through is not very high, so I just kept on starting, stopping. And then I read Diane Sullivan's book, the Four Seas, and he mentioned the book and I was like, oh shoot, I don't have to do it myself. That's awesome. I ended up doing this transcript and then rewriting the whole book, but it gave me a framework. It gave me a really good for it was that start.
\n\nI always like my website. I told my website designer when you give me a word document that has words on it, I can't see what this is going to be. I said cut anything up, publish it, I'll look at it and I'll tell you how I want to change it. So the idea of this book was literally to do like a tell all and put this information out there in the world. Working with 90 minute book gave me this idea of like hey, this is lead generation, create outcomes, create three. What do you call it? Call action yeah, yeah.
\n\nI wasn't. That wasn't originally my plan to create the call to action. I figured like I'll put that book out there, I'll talk about it to people that I know on, you know, social media, and people will buy the book. But I didn't connect it to lead generation. So then the book got stalled a little longer because I had to go set up a website and get everything in place so that when the book publishes it does lead to somewhere.
\n\nStuart: So now I'm super excited.
\n\nRachel: I set up a website. I'm working on a course, a self-paced course that you take online workshops, one-on-one coaching, which is really exciting. So I really appreciate that you guys pushed for that angle, you know.
\n\nStuart: Right, it does give it. We talk a lot about the idea of traditional books versus conversation starting books and they have 90% of benefits crossover in terms of authority and credibility and putting the idea out there. But the downside to traditional books is that model is the book is the product, and the whole world is around book sales and the book being the thing, whereas for the rest of us, real business owners, where the conversation is the outcome, the conversation is the thing that we're trying to get to and the book is just a mechanism, a very effective mechanism, for starting that conversation. So it's just those little switches that change 5% maybe of the content, but at least it leads people in a path to help them get to that next step which ultimately leads to jumping on a call or whatever the discovery step is.
\n\nRachel: Yeah, it totally changed for me, because I'm not planning to make any money off the book, I think, because what I'm going to do is print a bunch of copies, put them into pretty boxes and ship them to people. And it's a good gift to give to people, it's a good thing to bring to shows. It's the business card.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, exactly, and those models if you've got. We talk sometimes about invisible audiences versus visible audiences, so invisible audiences, it's difficult to buy a list of people with knee pain because that list just doesn't exist in that way. But it is possible to get a list of COOs. So the book exists. Now you can change the format of it, do hardcover versions, put those in a box If you were trying to target, like line fish, some individual, specific people. The opportunity to do that now that it exists, changing the format, changing the context in which you use it. There's a lot more opportunity now that it exists.
\n\nOne question I know that we're running up on time. It's turning into a standing joke at the end of all these podcasts I'd say how quick time goes, but it always catches me out. One question, and again probably from a personal perspective the implement, the integrator personality type of the element of kind of fact-based discernment, however good that is, and the visionary personality type of really driving something forwards almost to the exclusion of logic or sense, at the extremes of both of them. What's the? Do you have any advice for someone who is naturally in that integrator space, that's the, the thought process, but is also responsible for the visionary side of driving an idea forward and is very on board with the idea, has the vision, but what's the? You were talking about the having a different definition of add, but what are the elements of the visionary that are useful for a integrated based organization more than a visionary based organization?
\n\nRachel: okay, so why do you think you need to change anything?
\n\nStuart: Well, okay, so our organization? So okay, the example is me, so our organization is the product that we've got, I think, is very good because it sits in the nice sweet spot of very effective and not getting too carried away in the best seller BS of something that's not really effective. We've been doing this for 13 years now. There are a number of competitors around that external view first and internal view second. I think my natural head is the other way around internal first and external second, which is great from an operational point of view. But I mean that has its limit. There still needs to be more push on the outside. So very selfishly, I'm saying what? How many times I have to tap myself on this part of my head to get into switching into more of that external, that visionary forget about the operational side and into the driven side?
\n\nRachel: is it that the business is not going fast enough?
\n\nStuart: yeah, I think there's, yeah, two elements one it's the generally the growth and two, it's almost a little bit of the. When we started this, we were the only game in town at this end, this part of the spectrum. But now there's lots of people doing it in a more external way now, operationally, I don't know what they're, whether it is better or not, but still, whether or not there is a problem externally, I think that the I feel that there is a problem internally, that my natural tendency. If I get to the end of the day and didn't have the reminder to do something external, I would have focused all internally. So there, there seems to be a visionary trait that I'm missing that would be good to pick up on. I'm guessing that I'm not alone in that.
\n\nRachel: I know, okay, I get it, I hear you so. So this is what I sometimes see that people that have more integrated traits, their businesses, don't grow that fast. Because you want an insurance policy for every step you're going to take. You're more free, you're more risk averse. And then when I sit with these teams, what happens is something I observed is visionary goes and says I want to make 10 million the next two years. Integrator says that's not possible because they're looking from where they go today. The visionary looks where I want to be and then they work their way back. So being more visionary is saying you know, when I sit with teams and I want to set their goals, they're like why don't we set 90 day goals before a 10 year goal? Because then I said, because that's when you want to go to Florida, you might end up in Canada.
\n\nRight, if you sit down, I say what's that ultimate goal? What do I want? And don't get distracted by what others should ands like what other people want for you. It sounds like you're stuck in that typical coo space where you're worried about what other people want for you instead of what you really want for yourself, and maybe you are perfectly okay with a type, a kind of business. You're just feeling, you know I don't know what the word is, but you're feeling like, oh, I should be doing x because everybody is doing x, right. So asking yourself, what do I truly want? What does that look like in 10 years? And then saying what do I need to do today to get there? Gets you more of that external view. If you're saying, I want 1 million viewers in 10 years, great, what do you have to do today? So you're going to have to start talking to different types of people and doing different types of activities, because it changes your trajectory.
\n\nAnd that's the difference between COOs and visionaries. And now a COO asked me how do visionaries take so much risk? And the answer is by the time they take that risk, they've mitigated all the other risk. So visionaries make calculations and decisions so fast that when they decide that they're going to jump in, what looks like a risk for you is already a mitigated risk for them Because they've calculated all the possible outcomes. They've decided that they are okay with taking that leap. Like, if they take a 10 million dollar risk, they've calculated how they're going to lose it, how they're going to make it back, what's going to happen if they lose the 10 million? They're sitting with it. They're okay to lose the 10 million, versus a ceo thinks of taking a 10 million dollar risk.
\n\nStuart: They think they're gonna die right yeah so maybe yeah, that's an interesting thought, that idea of there's so many ideas and on the next, that the mitigation is almost that the next idea has popped in and is already crowding for space. Yeah, that's interesting way of looking at it. This has been fantastic really. Personally, and I think the people who are on the list that we send the email notification out to there's a big crossover between this cohort of people. So I think this unique idea and way of thinking about it no matter which side of the visionary integrated fence they are, or even if those words don't mean anything, but still the setup in the organization, whether they're a real estate agent who's responsible for their own book, or in a larger organization, there's still elements of this I think are really going to resonate. I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and the book, and what's a good place for people to head over to to find out more?
\n\nRachel: So they can go to www.empoweredcoo.com and all the information is on there. They can find me on LinkedIn.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Make sure to report all the links to the places in the show notes so as people are listening on, they'll be in the podcast player or if people are on the website, there'll be a link there. It'd be great to circle back in a few months and see how the books go in the reception. Once it kind of comes to that, join together and finalize what the reception is out there, because I think it's going to be really kind of game changing for a lot of people. So if you're up for it, it'd be really great to get back later in the year yeah, I created an online free assessment that will show you on a scale of being empowered.
\n\nRachel: You know, visionaries on the positive side, integrators on the negative side. The assessment is for integrators. It's from negative five to negative zero, so negative five is very enmeshed, very codependent. Negative zero, center focus self. You know, situation focused. I've been talking about it a little bit. I've got a lot of people that have already taken the assessment, so people are waiting for the book to come out.
\n\nI'm just a stickler and I wanted it to be perfect. So I'm putting the last finishing touches and hopefully it'll be out in the next few weeks yeah, and that's the thing I mean.
\n\nStuart: that's the other good thing about this model is guaranteed. In two months time you'll see something else that you want to change and from the feedback that you get, there might be some deeper diving and elaboration that you want to put in there based on that feedback. But at least that's an option here and you can make all those changes at any point in the future. But I know what you mean about wanting to get that first one out of the gate as good as possible. Rachel, really appreciate the time Everyone listening. I'll put the links in the show notes to the website and Rachel's LinkedIn page, so definitely follow across there and then, yeah, we'll circle back in a few months and see where it's landing for people.
\n\nRachel: Thank you so much, Stuart, for having me. This was a blast.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Thanks, rachel. Thanks everyone for listening. We'll catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Rachel Lebowitz, EOS Implementor and COO coach, about the challenges leaders face and the ideas she brings together in her new book, The Empowered COO.\r\n\r\nRachel brings a wealth of experience to her work. From helping scale her family's business to working with a wide range of organizations as an EOS Implementor to her training in relationship and codependency management, she shares her expertise in aligning big thinkers and their COOs. We explore the paradox of a visionary \"addiction\" to ideas and a COO's need to assert boundaries.\r\n\r\nThis episode is a treasure trove of practical strategies, especially for those in COO or Integrator roles. Rachel's belief in COOs communicating their value beyond executing details is a key takeaway. We also delve into strategies for empowerment through delegation and questioning skills, providing some actionable insights. \r\n\r\nHer approach is pretty unique, addressing both the strategies and the underlying issues of working across personality types. Her personal experience helps to illustrate the challenges felt by many, if not all, in a COO role.\r\n\r\nWe wrapping up delving into some of the benefits of using a conversation-starting book to introduce an idea into a conversation going on in the minds of the peole you can best help.","date_published":"2024-05-05T08:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/b49d3507-e2c3-40fc-a042-70fa78ab9541.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":33234671,"duration_in_seconds":2759}]},{"id":"74a2a4ca-56bc-45bc-9e5b-a369e5391a83","title":"Ep165: Finding Your Swing with Dave DePula","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/165","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with golf disruptor and author of 'Your Golf Club Lies to You,' Dave DePula, about his novel method of coaching golfers to improve their swing. \n\nBased in Palm Desert, Dave shares his journey from real estate deals to the driving range and reveals his approach to helping people break bad habits by going back to fundamentals.\n\nHis book serves as a powerful tool, a testament to the value of joining a conversation that's already brewing in the minds of your ideal clients. Dave discusses the importance of identifying their motivations, understanding their challenges, and the unique value his book brings to the table, sparking meaningful conversations.\n\nWith an identifiable market, like golfers, we discussed marketing tactics, such as placement in pro shops or targeted ads, as well as practical methods for building rapport using books.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Stuart welcomes Dave DePula, a former real estate agent turned golf instructor, and discusses his innovative approach to teaching golf.\n Dave shares his journey from real estate to golf instruction and how he helps golfers improve their game and enjoy it more.\n We explore a book that addresses the frustrations golfers face with traditional coaching and offers a new perspective on self-improvement.\n The book is a strategic tool that encourages golfers to rethink their approach to their swing and the overall game.\n Dave explains how traditional prescriptive teaching methods are flawed and introduces his training tool called the Pro.\n We discuss how using the Pro can lead to a more natural and effective learning experience, similar to human development processes like learning to walk.\n The importance of visual and physical feedback in learning a golf swing over verbal instructions is highlighted.\n We examine the strategic use of books and other marketing tools to grow a business and maintain engagement with the audience.\n Stuart and Dave talk about lead conversion and the significance of nurturing leads through an effective email strategy.\n Real-world examples are provided to illustrate how golfers can transform their swing and instructors can leverage their knowledge for business growth.\n\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/165\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nDave DePula Contact Information:\nWebsite:Sling the Club | YourGolfClubLiesToYou.com\nLinkedIn:Dave DePula\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome to the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here again, and today joined by Dave DePaula. Dave, how are you doing, buddy? \n\nDave: I'm great Stuart. How are you? \n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, thank you. Okay, today's going to be a great show because occasionally maybe 50% of the time I'm chatting with people who I haven't necessarily talked to before, because they've been through the process and for whatever reason we haven't needed to talk. But what I like about today's call is that you and I have talked lots, so I'm kind of coming to this with a little bit more insight into what's going on. So hopefully we can kind of dive a little bit deeper and bring some of that out. But I guess, to get everyone else up to speed, why don't you give a bit of an intro on you and the background and then we can dive into the book a little bit? \n\nDave: you and the background and then we can dive into the book a little bit. Yes, so I'm from new jersey. I've been out in california for about 14 years, former real estate agent, and I love that, and now I help people play better golf, lower their handicap and, more importantly and most importantly, have more fun. So I never work a day in my life. I'm out in the palm desert, california, and it's I hate to say it, but like living the dream. Everybody says that it's actually really true. \n\nStuart: So that's well, now that we've kind of made everyone jealous and they've turned off it's. I'm over in pennsylvania, just outside philadelphia, so it's, uh, chugging it down with rain here today and it's terrible, so you made the right choice in moving out west. The book is. It is really interesting because the whole premise of playing golf it's out there and doing it. So people wouldn't necessarily think of a book as a first thing to introduce people to the idea. But your specific approach to helping people reduce their handicap and play a better game it's almost introducing a slightly new idea. So give people a bit of a background on the product and the process and then we'll get into how the book is kind of bridging that gap sure. \n\nDave: So let's do a little backstory. I've been teaching, I've been playing golf since I was 30 and so that's about 34 years ago, and I've been teaching it for 14 years and fundamentally most, if not everyone's golf swing hat didn't really change like little fringe stuff, short game stuff. I was only always in the search for how to fundamentally change a golf swing, and not until I met my partner, dan Martin, and we came up, or he has this training tool called the pro, which replaces the shaft with a. So two major factors in not being able to change a golf swing. Number one is the way it's taught. So it's taught prescriptively. \n\nIn other words, stuart, you do this or don't do this, turn your hips, turn your body, do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that, and humans just don't learn that way. So you didn't learn how to walk that way and you certainly didn't learn how to ride a bike that way. So let's imagine for a moment that a little child I guess you're around one when you learn how to walk I guess I don't have any kids, but let's say that's the case and the child was able to understand the language of its parents, and can you imagine if they said okay, little Stuart, what I want you to do now is lift your leg up four inches, turn your hip to the left, make sure you're. I mean, we'd have the entire human race crawling on the ground because they'd be so frustrated. And that's what I found in the golf industry and it's nobody's fault, but it's the culture like the culture of things. So I had to break away from that culture and it would happen by accident, and that the culture is a prescriptive thing, where this training aid teaches a person A how to be free and B when you learn how to straighten it coming down, starting your downswing, it teaches the body how to move. \n\nWithout me saying a word. Matter of fact, the person who's training themselves isn't even saying anything to themselves. It's actually a visual process. And then the body's learning, learning. And again it's like a child eats a, you know, learn how to eat with a spoon or a fork. It's all over the face, it's all over the floor and then, like now, I can do it with pretty much out without dropping it, with some distracted or something. But once again, can you imagine if a baby was taught how to eat and they were told to move their elbow at 45 degrees, nobody would be. It would be sloppy everywhere or slop everywhere. So this, basically, is 180 degrees opposite of what's being taught out there, and the beauty is it's a fun process because it's actual learning and what I'm, my definition of learning is evidenced by a change of behavior, not some information. I can. I could know intellectually that cigarettes are bad for me, but until I stop smoking it doesn't mean a thing. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nDave: It's the same thing. So I can read all about the golf swing and what Tiger Woods does. So, like Jack, nicholas wrote a book called Golf my Way. Okay, can't golf his way, I can't golf Stewart's way, I have to golf my way. And this process teaches a person how to literally have an elite golf motion. And once it's trained, once you're trained so it isn't endless golf lessons you train, just like you learn how to drive a car. Now you go from point A to point train, just like you learn how to drive a car. Now you go from point a to point b, you already know how to drive. I'm sure stewart didn't wake up today and say, okay, I need to practice my driving so when I leave the driveway I won't hit somebody. No, so think about how ridiculous it is, but it's hard to. It's hard to see it when a person is inside of it yeah so so it's. \n\nStuart: I don't say it's my job, I'm just introducing something outside of the culture that actually works that real world feedback, the kind of interaction with the thing and learning by doing it, creates such stronger paths and it's it's interesting as you describe it. You kind of think of all the scenarios where you're trying to tell people how to do things and it's just not landing properly. I was actually thinking of the book business and a lot of what we do is trying to verbally share a message with people. But there's a few things we do around titles, workshops and things which are a little bit more interactive, that kind of get people to think, have an experience beyond just what we're saying. So I should probably revisit that and there's probably some more depth to it. \n\nBut from the golf swing particularly so I just want to dive quickly into the tool itself. So the the muscle memory connection in taking that swing and the visual, visual indication of seeing the rope on the device being straight all the way through the swing, that's the thing that is the break for people. It's that consistent golf swing which is replicated by the rope yeah, so I'll explain a little bit more. \n\nDave: So the golf club is a rigid object and, because it is leverage, can be put on the shaft, on the club, and what that does is that ruins the golf swing. So Bobby Jones, who might be one of the best golfers ever, if not the best, said if you want to learn how to swing a golf club, put a ball at the end of a rope or a string. So basically that's what this is. So in order for someone to have an actual swing we actually call it it's actually a swing like you throw a ball that it just replaces the shaft. I can't jerk this around. It has to be in motion. So it's one entire motion. \n\nSo two things. We're overcoming the rigidity of the shaft, which is the problem of every golf shot. So if I admit, if I hit it fat or thin and the golfers are listening to this, they'll know or it goes right or goes left, hooks or slices, all misses are because someone has put a leverage force on the shaft. And then, when I put a leverage force, the equal and opposite of newton's I think that's third law. Newton's third law for every action is an equal and opposite reaction. So if I put a force on the shaft here, my body's move over here differently. When I make this part of body and that's what the pro teaches you it's one entire motion and it's simultaneous, synchronous and balanced, all learned by the body's natural learning system, without Dave saying Stuart, do this and do that, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, and all you see on the driving range all over the world is pure frustration because you can't learn it that way it's impossible. \n\nI'm not here to say you should or shouldn't do something, but if it's not useful and it doesn't work, yeah, find a different path. But once again, if all I know is prescriptions and you're a golf, if you're, and you're a golf instructor, and you're telling me something and it doesn't work, well, I need another prescription, and that doesn't work. Then I get another prescription, but it's not the prescription, it's the prescript process that doesn't work. So we're really transcending that yeah, changing the methodology completely. \n\nStuart: So this is an interesting transition into the book I did, and so obviously, the physical, the physical necessity of having the tool and practicing the swing and getting all of that, that feedback through the body. I think a lot of people might then fail to make the connection into a book, and that's what I really like about this project is it's tying those two worlds together. So talk a little bit about the book and then we can run into how we make that connection between the book and and the real world product. \n\nDave: But thinking about writing the book and the content that's in there and who you talk, who is being targeted or can make the best value from it, talk a little bit about that audience yeah, so it's basically any person who is a sincere enough golfer and has a desire to change their golf swing, and maybe one of the primary sort of looking for qualifications, if I can use that word, is frustration. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nDave: And once again, if you look at a driving range all across America and the club club where I belong, everyone's frustrated because, number one, they're getting a prescription, whether it's from a YouTube video, the instructor at the club or some book. That will never work. Who reads it or who gets introduced to it? There's a better way. Okay, prove it to yourself. It's not about me saying this is the only way, but prove it to yourself. \n\nOne can learn how to do it. If they can literally just get a piece of rope, it would definitely help them. This is it's going to be more of an accelerator because it has a what do you call this thing? A little weight. At the end it's a little, but ultimately it's all about learning for yourself and in yourself and this training aid. Or if one had a rope, basically, if a person, a golfer, was on the driving range and no preconceived notions of how to swing the golf club, they would teach themselves to have a pretty good to swing the golf club. They would teach themselves to have a pretty good golf swing, even though if they, even if they put some leverage on it. But it's when the interference of prescriptions or me telling somebody how to do it. So the book is basically our way of saying there's a better way, check it out and then introduce them to what we have available, and then someone decides for themselves whether they'd like to try it or not. \n\nStuart: Right, that idea of frustration being the consistent element amongst all of the audience, taking it away from a qualification step of it's not just a golfer, it's a golfer who's frustrated with it. And they're frustrated because what's the saying? There's the unknowns, unknowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns and no knowns, those elements of the stages of frustration. So if you were naively just smacking the ball around and still having fun, well, that's fine, but that's not the audience, it's the frustration element. So the title of the book talk a little bit about the title, because I think that will resonate with people who are in that situation yeah. \n\nDave: So the title is your golf club lies to you why your golf swing never changes and what to really do about it. So it doesn't change. For two reasons again, and they're equally as important. One is I'm putting a leverage force on a shaft and I don't even know I'm doing it. And number two is everything is prescriptive and someone's telling me what to do or what not to do, and it just can't work that way. I can't. \n\nEven so, if I had a whole list of what to do, the body's moving so fast and the brain is moving so slow relative to the body that I couldn't tell my body what to do in that amount of time. So that's another element of frustration. And let's put it, let's call it non, non results or no results is that I'm literally trying to tell myself how to move my body. So if we were in person and I threw a ball to you, you would just catch it, or if I threw something out, you would stick your arm up and catch it, but if you told yourself how to do it, you get hit in the face. Okay, so it's just amazing how the culture of golf and there's no criticism of it, it's just the way it is how the average handicap never changes, the average golf swing never changes and the professional golfers, despite how much they want to change their golf swing, it pretty much reverts back to what they've been doing. They make a little tweak. \n\nStuart: But once it's built, unless you have something that is non-prescriptive, that can, yeah, overwrite those pretty ingrained patterns. What I like about the title and the subheadings that you've got is that it really punches home some of the it's not. There's a level deeper, there's an emotional resonance with it, a level deeper than just the how to in another world it could have been how to improve your golf swing but the idea of people resonating with that, with the words that you're using, the description, I think it's as people are thinking about writing their own books. This idea of we do try and tell people to balance, the idea of not being too clever because you don't want to hide the message and not make it obvious. But yours strikes that right balance of you, the target audience. It's obvious what it does, it's not hidden. \n\nBut it also touches on those emotional pain points and and some of the language that is going on in their head already. There there's something's not right element of I'm trying these things but they're not working. We talk quite a lot about the call to action in the book and the fact that there is a job of work that it's trying to do. It's trying to lead people to the next step. So the content talking about the two main frustrations and opening people's eyes to a new way of thinking about something is one, but we do have some commercial intent in the project and the thing that we're doing, so stepping people through to that next step, with your next step being so kind of like physically based Talk a little bit about those where you're leading the audience to. \n\nDave: Yeah. So in a perfect world, the message that we're sending in the book would resonate so deeply that they would immediately buy the pro. Deeply that they would immediately buy the pro. Or if I was rich and didn't need to pay my bills, I'd give them one for free, because having this in their hands is going to absolutely transform their golf swing in a relatively short period of time. \n\nBut I can't force that on somebody, right? So everybody's gonna only do it whenever they're ready, right? So whenever they're ready, so we offer that and that you know a scorecard. But ultimately, if and this is part of like honing my message so it does resonate and it inspires action, not just for me and be profitable as a business and of course I want to do that but for the person who wants to improve their golf swing and their frustration, get out of swing prison, hit the ball farther and straighter and have more fun and lower scores all that is possible, okay, I proved it to myself and my students. However, someone who's just hearing this they might have to hear it a bunch of times or whenever they're ready, they'll do it. But ultimately, honing the message so succinctly, coming from the heart, that, like bam, they get it immediately right. \n\nStuart: I think that's the thing as well, this idea that sometimes people need to hear things several times or in several different ways. The book has a tool to identify those invisible prospects that might otherwise be difficult to get in front of and then be able to share something immediately useful with them. The end result, the product, is easy to conceptualize. It's not like it's some random formula and pat themselves on the head and tap their nose three times. It's not complicated, but you've got the ability of, once you've captured those details, to share some of this ongoing information for those who aren't ready yet and with it being such a visual element that kind of adds to it, because it's a mechanical movement but there's a visual way of sharing stuff. \n\nSo I know you've got a lot of super useful videos and explainers and guides and tips that you can share with people in the meantime just to reinforce that message, and tips that you can share with people in the meantime just to reinforce that message and share that passion, until they go out to the golf course for the last time and try the latest YouTube video that they've watched. \n\nAnd then it's the straw that breaks the camel's back and they think back ah, dave, had something that I should try. The videos that you've got and the way that you kind of engage with people and share this information is that was that right first time out of the can. You kind of thought I know I need to shoot some videos on it's these three subjects and that will hit the mark. Or did some of it come from feedback from you've obviously been doing this for a few years, so did it come from feedback from all of the interactions over the time and it's more? It was kind of like more user-led content when realized that someone was struggling with a particular thing yeah, so everyone's in it for themselves, right? \n\nDave: so if I had a video that says the reason why you slice the ball, but you don't slice the ball, you hook the ball, and you wouldn't pay any attention. Okay, so there's people who slice it and hook it and hit it fat, hit it thin. You can use a general term like inconsistent ball striking, but ultimately it's connecting to that one person. So I mean I could shoot it. I could shoot a video and say, uh, are you tired of losing golf balls? And that's not going to resonate. But if somebody went out and played around the golf lost six pro pro Vs, which are very expensive title is pro Vs, a little plug for them. And then they saw a video that said are you tired of losing golf balls? Bam, I just connected with that person. \n\nSo each person is going to have their own affliction or problem with a golf club that's leveraged. So a golf club that's leveraged is going to produce all of the bad shots, but each person is going to put leverage on it in a different place, which will have a different result with the ball. So if I put leverage on the top, it'll more than likely slice it. If I put leverage on the bottom, it'll more than likely hook it. What's the answer? Learn how to swing the pro so you don't put any leverage on the bottom. It'll more than likely hook it. What's the answer? Learn how to swing the pro so you don't put any leverage on the golf club and it doesn't matter whether you hook, slice, hit it fat, thin. Those problems will go away after one is trained yeah, and that's a great analogy. \n\nStuart: I was actually talking with someone earlier this week about this idea. It was a new client we were working with so I was describing the analogy I used was imagine it's a like a strip mall with five different business doors or five different doors in there, but as you get to the other side it then opens up into the one business. So each doorway, each entrance is exact, as you said. Everyone's in it for themselves. So the doorway number one that talks about hooking the shots, that will resonate that group of people. Doorway number five that talks about losing balls, that will resonate with those people. But on the other side it all opens up into the same place, which is the don't need leverage on the club at all, and this is the way you do it. So I think once the a lot of of people we talk about creating the books in terms of a campaign. So I don't think about traditional books, think about conversation, starting books in a campaign sense. But then that kind of locks people's thinking into oh, it's good for this particular campaign. The next level of thinking around it, the next situation, is to think okay, we're thinking about it in terms of campaigns, but that campaign can have multiple entrances. So, just as you described, once the book is created as an asset that serves a number of those entrance points but within the same general problem, then you've got lots of different ways in. So the five facebook ads that talk about the five different swing problems, all leading to a book called your goal, complies to you, then that makes the asset much more leverageable to put over my words today makes it much more leverageable and useful in lots of different ways. \n\nThe fact that you can interact with people and the scorecard, as you mentioned, is one of the follow-up steps in the book. So as they're answering those questions, you see what the results are. You hear them talking about a particular frustration. Last week you recorded a video that was useful on that. Three years ago you recorded another video that was useful for someone else. \n\nBut this idea of being able to use all of these little assets within the overall campaign toolbox makes it so much more valuable and, like we say, a book has a disproportionate amount of value that's given to people, or people assign a disproportionate amount of authority to it compared with those exact same words just in a different format. The fact that you can follow up with a book, talking to people, give them a copy of the book as a next step. It's just very, it's very easy to use it as a leveraging asset. So on that point, I'm talking about the different ways of using it. Obviously, facebook ads targeted around golf courses to particular demographics of people who are likely to be the ideal customer is is the first way that springs to mind, but I guess you've got the opportunity to use it physically in some cases or in different. \n\nDave: Yeah, so I don't have the, so it's brand. So the book literally just came out less than a week ago, so I only have the electronic version and we are running Facebook ads Now. We started in the local area but now we expanded it to the 20 most popular cities for golf. We have the Facebook leads down to like $1 and 61 cents. It's amazing. And the ad is just, and we tried one with the picture of the book. That wasn't so great. \n\nNow there's just a video of me saying your golf swing isn't broken, there's nothing to fix. It's lying dormant inside you waiting to be revealed and then offering the book. And that's just a general thing to say. We're not even saying read this, if a general thing to say. We're not even saying read this if you slice the ball. We're not even doing that. Yet. We'll try those, the physical books. I'll take them to cigar shops and literally, like you know, get permission to drop them off different country clubs and golf courses that will allow me to do that and give them to my current students, have them in their bag and somebody says, hey, how did you, how did you hit the ball so well, like you used to be terrible. \n\nStuart: And then he's handling the book yeah, that, actually that can imagine a scenario where someone's been playing with someone for years and suddenly their golf swing improves and someone says to them how the heck did you do that? And I can imagine a scenario where they're pulling the book out but then kind of tucking it away or giving it to their friend and ripping the back page out, or I can. It seems to be that I don't play golf but I've got friends that I like to wind up about things, so you can imagine this scenario where the, the referral, the referral world in the rest of the world is, is you haven't got the same opportunities to kind of give it to your friends in quite the same way that you do here. So I can imagine lots of fun stories coming out about that. \n\nWhat you were talking about a second ago, though this car shop as an example, this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses where their audience is your audience I always try the default go-to when I think about this example is always kind of like chiropractors and physiotherapists and people in that space. \n\nWe've worked with people in the past who have helped cyclists and some other groups, but the idea of of chiropractors or I can't remember whether that's a UK term or a US term, but physiotherapists, that type of world, because what you're offering doesn't compete exactly with them, but their audience crosses over with your guys. \n\nSo I think I'm going to try and remember this as that example of competing, non-complementary, non-competing audiences, because there are going to be a lot of chiropractors or PTs who have got golf playing clients, who have potentially injured themselves on the golf course. You're not offering any competing service to them. You're offering a service that can for the, for the PT or the chiropractor can give them a copy of the book and say, hey, we'll get you sorted out. And actually this is Dave's book talking about the swing itself, because the problem that you've done is from putting leverage in and tweaking your back or pulling something and it just seems like such a nice it's a nice way of amplifying and adding value to their audience without being competing. So, anyway, that, I think, is a great opportunity and it's the example I'm going to use going forwards, because it's pretty obvious to people yes, which gives me an idea where I can actually go to different chiropractors and personal trainers and to have a mailing list. \n\nDave: Say, look, I want to send this out like it's totally free, it won't cost you anything. And then that gives them something to offer, yeah, as a added value, and it gets me out there when somebody already has a list yeah, exactly, you can imagine, I always compare it to, I always think about it in terms of, like the affiliate marketing world. \n\nStuart: That's not the world that I play in at all, but when you see good affiliate campaigns set up, they'll provide all of the assets to the people to make it as as easy as possible. So you can imagine drafting a email copy or a letter or a introductory thing that reinforces because you've got a copywriter's head on your shoulders you can reinforce the, their value, you can kind of play up them in a thing that is actually delivering your thing. So there's a lot of way of binding that message in to really give the benefits on both sides. We should do a kind of outside of the podcast but we should do a bit of a brainstorm idea on this complementary competing group of people. Sure, because it's so non-competing it's, it really seems like there's a big opportunity to open that. \n\nOpen that yes, I agree I was actually just got back from florida last night. I drove down there, had to see a client halfway down, so they boat manufacturer, super yacht manufacturer. So we were talking to those guys and they were going through a load of assets and there was a whole load of visual elements going through it, their brochures. But as we were leaving the town that it was in north carolina was this little cute little town out in east north carolina and, um, as we were leaving, michael the guy gave me the book it's downstairs, gave me the book on the town. So it's kind of almost like a little memorial book of the town, but it was actually generated by a realtor in town. So this idea of Michael adding value to the conversation I was having with him talking about the town, and this third-party realtor had written the guide and the history and some nice illustrations. So again, this idea of other people being able to amplify your message because what you've created gives value to that audience, so many opportunities to drill into that a little bit more. \n\nOkay, off on a bit of a tangent there, sorry. So this we talked about the next steps and the idea of people will. We've got that hook that captures their passion and the frustration and the thing that resonates with them. We talked about a couple of the advertising marketing places to intersect with where that audience is. They kind of receive it and the next step, hopefully, is that they'll be very frustrated and order a pro in order to be able to fix this issue that they've got For that group of people who aren't ready to move today. So it's for most businesses. It's the minority of people who aren't ready to move today. So it's for most businesses. It's the minority of people who take action straight away. But then, if we can stay in touch with them over the longer period and intersect again when today's the day that they've just hooked it for the last time, what steps do you either have in place at the moment or think about putting place in order to stay in contact with people? \n\nDave: yeah. So, keeping in line with Dean and Jackson's stuff and your stuff, we have the first 100 days. So when someone gets the book, they immediately get an email and says thank you for downloading the book. If you didn't get it, here's a link. I didn't put that in there yet, but I'm going to Grab a cup of coffee. It's a great read. That was one of Dean's things. And then the very next day uh, I hope you're enjoying the book. How often you get to play golf. So the goal is to strike up a conversation. I have so far I have 46 leads in less than a week and I think four or five. I have conversations started and then after that, every seven days, an email goes out with a super signature which is a call to action. So whenever you're ready, there's four ways I can help you Come to a workshop, buy a pro, get the scorecard, or come see me one-on-one at the driving range. We'll splash in the tub. So that's what we have. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nDave: And then it'll be the flagship where, again, once every week after that, there'll be an email. So where I am right now is the book is to have somebody raise their hand. It's already working beautifully. Now it's honing the process of converting those leads Right, and initially the emails are like a part of the book put in there. \n\nBut I'm actually gonna, I'm actually gonna hone the message so succinctly and it's going to be so short. A message like, for example, prescriptions, like the truth about the golf swing prescriptions don't work, that's it. And then ask then, like I want it to be more of a question and not even a question that's going to be answered to me, but to themselves Stuart, why do you play golf? That's the like, not me educating them on the swing. Every single email, maybe it's again. So I don't know what the process is. Let me rephrase that I don't know what the process that works is but a probing question. Then a little information about what we do and another probing question yeah, right, so, and so right now we're in the we're in the converting. I'm in the converting the leads process of seeing what works and what works best yeah and I always think. \n\nFor me personally, I think less is better right because people are time constrained. \n\nStuart: I mean long. I've never been a fan of long form landing pages because I don't know how far people get through them. The long form emails it just gets a little bit too much. The ability to consistently or regularly do less, because us as the insiders, we kind of see every email that we write and we kind of sweat over and give attention to it. So our view of our own outbound marketing is seeing 100% of the big picture. But the recipient, even the most engaged clients, you know yourself from your own mailbox, even the people who you really want to read their message and you're really in tune with it, and in a perfect world you'd consume every single one, even those people you don't open every single email because you're out on the golf course when one comes in and then three hours later when you get back it's gone in the stream. So I think more regular but shorter and more consumable is the better way around of doing it rather than just hoping that there's this one mammoth one that will do all of the work. \n\nDave: So, yeah, I completely agree. And also it's a matter of how well does the email connect with the person that's reading it? So, for example, I read every single one of your emails and every single one of dean's emails because it has value to me. Okay, and I've been getting dean's emails for years and years and I've definitely, like I bought email mastery and I bought the a profit activators like online program, but then it was years before I did anything else, so it could be literally a year or two, but as long as the content that's being sent that person has value to them, they're going to open it yeah, yeah, yeah. \n\nStuart: A funny story that we tell sometimes is one of the realtors up in, payann Kenny, who's a good friend of ours. He we've told this story before, but he purged his list once. So he's been around for I mean decades. He purged his list and said okay, anyone who hasn't opened a message in or hasn't haven't had any contact with in five years, I'm going to purge them off. I don't know why, because it's no more cost of keeping those people and purging them. But anyway, he was in a spring cleaning mood so purchased the list and then about eight months later got a voicemail which got a phone call which went to voicemail, so he was able to play it to us next time. He was down in fort lauderdale in uh, in winter haven and the message was hey, kenny's Bob here. I hope this is the right number. I don't know what happened. I must have done something so I got off your list. I used to get your message all the time. Anyway, my sister passed away recently, so we're selling her oceanfront home. We've got an oceanfront home that we want to sell and then we want to consolidate and buy somewhere a little bit further inland now that we're getting older. So anyway, I hope this number is yours. I actually had to find another realtor in town to get your number, so anyway, I'm really hoping this finds you. \n\nThere's kind of the backside, the back end of that story is everyone assumes that leads are dead after a certain point. But this person, just as you said, had been happily consuming the stuff for a period of time until they were ready. Ready, and then the point that they were ready because kenny had purchased the stuff months before. They had to jump through several hoops in order to get back to the person who they felt was their guy. It's just that kenny had no indication that he was their guy for them. But how many people on that list never went to those steps? Are we ready to sell our house? What was the name of that realtor guy? Oh, you know, I don't know, but I don't get his emails anymore. Okay, well, let's just pick up the yellow pages and call someone down the street. \n\nSo, idea of separating out the collecting of the leads from the converting of the leads and then the converting of the leads it's only either today or not today, and it's not. If it's not today, all we can do is keep putting stuff out there and hopefully on the day that is the day it will intersect. So yeah, great, great insights on the life of lead conversion. I always also like that story because I kind of imagine it from the point of view of the intermediate real estate agent that got the call. So he kind of answers the phone and the guy there says, oh yeah, I'm trying to sell my two oceanfront homes and buy another one. And the guy rubs his hands and say, oh, fantastic. \n\nDave: How my two oceanfront homes and buy another one, and the guy rubs his hands and say oh, fantastic, how can I help you? Well, do you have kenny's phone number? And then the other side of that story is and this definitely resonates with me, because I used to be a real estate agent or a broker and finding out someone that I sold let's say, I sold them a house, just sold their house, or listed their house, and they didn't call me, but I never sent them one single thing right, yeah, yeah, yeah, how many times the opposite of it yeah, yeah, you think that it's easy to think that, okay, I'm the person that they know I they. \n\nStuart: Why would they not call me next time? But if someone else, it's so in the moment, like even with people's best will and intention. If it's like with referrals you hear that all the time. Oh, you know what? You just mentioned something about the golf swing. I was with someone last week who was complaining about their shot all the time. I should have said something. \n\nWell, we can't rely on other people to be as into our business as we are, so to be able to consistently send them something of value. The fact that we've got a tool that helps them opt in makes that invisible prospect visible. But now we've got something that we can refer back to. And I like your approach of linking back to things that are mentioned in the book because it does give that consistency and it doesn't have to be every message, but at least kind of re-anchoring it every so often. It helps people understand and remember what the message is like. \n\nPoint three on why that swing currently sucks. They might not remember it haven't just read it once, but after three or four messages where you're illustrating or iterating on the point. It just helps people kind of remember and that element sink in. So that just means that they're more likely to remember you at the day when it becomes the day, that is, today, or if they're talking to someone else. They've got a framework in which to remember you by um time. I say I think this is my standard wrap-up for podcasts. I always say that time goes fast, but but it really has done. Again, I want to make sure that people can follow along and see what you're doing and if they are a player, then do something to improve their swing themselves. So where's a good place for people to go to to find out more? \n\nDave: yes, so they can go to YourGolfClubLiesToYou.com, and that's where they can get the book. Or they can go to SlingTheClub.com, which is my personal website, which they can also get the book there as well, and some other goodies that they. If they see, uh, the value in that, I'd offer a little advice to someone or so anybody listening who's a golfer, whether you get a pro or not, learn to teach yourself without anybody giving you instruction, and you'll be far the better for it at least you kind of got that consistent message in your head and there's not kind of all of these different conflicting messages coming in if you do it that way around yeah, well, I would say, like, the person who's going to learn the fastest is one who doesn't have any preconceived notions how to do it right, yeah, yeah, yeah it's. \n\nStuart: I just remember I've changed vehicles recently and put a uv tint on the windows to keep some of the heat out, and on the company's website it was there was a price for doing it fresh, and then there was a price for doing it if you had an existing film on there, and the price for removing the existing film was like three times the price of the actual job. It illustrates that point that trying to remove someone else's work or trying to over bad habits, it's a lot harder than just going in fresh and learning to walk by taking the steps rather than, rather than, consuming which leads, which just reminded me of something. \n\nDave: So the truth, which is what we have here. So this is the truth about the golf swing, and my workshops are going to be called that. As a matter of fact, I'm going to shoot an email to the 46 leads I have and say, hey, we're doing a workshop. The truth about the golf swing. Would you like to join us? The truth is always a subtraction to the least common denominator, the simple, and that's what the pro does and that's what the swing is to get rid of everything. That's not your true swing, and what's left is your true swing. \n\nStuart: Right. That's such a great way of thinking about it and I think the majority of business owners out there who are on our list because they've thought about writing a book in some way, that's true for them as well. Less is more, in a certain way, and just taking that one step at a time towards being able to help someone. But the simplifying it's a busy world out there, so the more simplification the better. Dave really appreciate it. Everyone that's listening. We'll put links through to Dave's two sites in the show notes and in the podcast player, so definitely check out those and follow it through. Dave, thanks again for the time today. It'll be really great. Let's circle back in a few months and see how things are converting and what that follow-up sequence is turned into. Because I think what that follow-up sequence is turned into, because I think this will be valuable to share with people some of the ideas that we test out there thank you. \n\nDave: Story had a lot of fun. Thank you fantastic. \n\nStuart: Okay, everyone, thanks for listening. Again, as I say, check out the show notes and follow the links through to dave stuff and where. If today's the day that it's good to get your book started, then obviously just reach out to us and we'll be here to help. Okay, thanks everyone. We will catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with golf disruptor and author of 'Your Golf Club Lies to You,' Dave DePula, about his novel method of coaching golfers to improve their swing.
\n\nBased in Palm Desert, Dave shares his journey from real estate deals to the driving range and reveals his approach to helping people break bad habits by going back to fundamentals.
\n\nHis book serves as a powerful tool, a testament to the value of joining a conversation that's already brewing in the minds of your ideal clients. Dave discusses the importance of identifying their motivations, understanding their challenges, and the unique value his book brings to the table, sparking meaningful conversations.
\n\nWith an identifiable market, like golfers, we discussed marketing tactics, such as placement in pro shops or targeted ads, as well as practical methods for building rapport using books.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/165
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Dave DePula Contact Information:
\nWebsite:Sling the Club | YourGolfClubLiesToYou.com
\nLinkedIn:Dave DePula
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nDave: I'm great Stuart. How are you?
\n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, thank you. Okay, today's going to be a great show because occasionally maybe 50% of the time I'm chatting with people who I haven't necessarily talked to before, because they've been through the process and for whatever reason we haven't needed to talk. But what I like about today's call is that you and I have talked lots, so I'm kind of coming to this with a little bit more insight into what's going on. So hopefully we can kind of dive a little bit deeper and bring some of that out. But I guess, to get everyone else up to speed, why don't you give a bit of an intro on you and the background and then we can dive into the book a little bit?
\n\nDave: you and the background and then we can dive into the book a little bit. Yes, so I'm from new jersey. I've been out in california for about 14 years, former real estate agent, and I love that, and now I help people play better golf, lower their handicap and, more importantly and most importantly, have more fun. So I never work a day in my life. I'm out in the palm desert, california, and it's I hate to say it, but like living the dream. Everybody says that it's actually really true.
\n\nStuart: So that's well, now that we've kind of made everyone jealous and they've turned off it's. I'm over in pennsylvania, just outside philadelphia, so it's, uh, chugging it down with rain here today and it's terrible, so you made the right choice in moving out west. The book is. It is really interesting because the whole premise of playing golf it's out there and doing it. So people wouldn't necessarily think of a book as a first thing to introduce people to the idea. But your specific approach to helping people reduce their handicap and play a better game it's almost introducing a slightly new idea. So give people a bit of a background on the product and the process and then we'll get into how the book is kind of bridging that gap sure.
\n\nDave: So let's do a little backstory. I've been teaching, I've been playing golf since I was 30 and so that's about 34 years ago, and I've been teaching it for 14 years and fundamentally most, if not everyone's golf swing hat didn't really change like little fringe stuff, short game stuff. I was only always in the search for how to fundamentally change a golf swing, and not until I met my partner, dan Martin, and we came up, or he has this training tool called the pro, which replaces the shaft with a. So two major factors in not being able to change a golf swing. Number one is the way it's taught. So it's taught prescriptively.
\n\nIn other words, stuart, you do this or don't do this, turn your hips, turn your body, do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that, and humans just don't learn that way. So you didn't learn how to walk that way and you certainly didn't learn how to ride a bike that way. So let's imagine for a moment that a little child I guess you're around one when you learn how to walk I guess I don't have any kids, but let's say that's the case and the child was able to understand the language of its parents, and can you imagine if they said okay, little Stuart, what I want you to do now is lift your leg up four inches, turn your hip to the left, make sure you're. I mean, we'd have the entire human race crawling on the ground because they'd be so frustrated. And that's what I found in the golf industry and it's nobody's fault, but it's the culture like the culture of things. So I had to break away from that culture and it would happen by accident, and that the culture is a prescriptive thing, where this training aid teaches a person A how to be free and B when you learn how to straighten it coming down, starting your downswing, it teaches the body how to move.
\n\nWithout me saying a word. Matter of fact, the person who's training themselves isn't even saying anything to themselves. It's actually a visual process. And then the body's learning, learning. And again it's like a child eats a, you know, learn how to eat with a spoon or a fork. It's all over the face, it's all over the floor and then, like now, I can do it with pretty much out without dropping it, with some distracted or something. But once again, can you imagine if a baby was taught how to eat and they were told to move their elbow at 45 degrees, nobody would be. It would be sloppy everywhere or slop everywhere. So this, basically, is 180 degrees opposite of what's being taught out there, and the beauty is it's a fun process because it's actual learning and what I'm, my definition of learning is evidenced by a change of behavior, not some information. I can. I could know intellectually that cigarettes are bad for me, but until I stop smoking it doesn't mean a thing.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nDave: It's the same thing. So I can read all about the golf swing and what Tiger Woods does. So, like Jack, nicholas wrote a book called Golf my Way. Okay, can't golf his way, I can't golf Stewart's way, I have to golf my way. And this process teaches a person how to literally have an elite golf motion. And once it's trained, once you're trained so it isn't endless golf lessons you train, just like you learn how to drive a car. Now you go from point A to point train, just like you learn how to drive a car. Now you go from point a to point b, you already know how to drive. I'm sure stewart didn't wake up today and say, okay, I need to practice my driving so when I leave the driveway I won't hit somebody. No, so think about how ridiculous it is, but it's hard to. It's hard to see it when a person is inside of it yeah so so it's.
\n\nStuart: I don't say it's my job, I'm just introducing something outside of the culture that actually works that real world feedback, the kind of interaction with the thing and learning by doing it, creates such stronger paths and it's it's interesting as you describe it. You kind of think of all the scenarios where you're trying to tell people how to do things and it's just not landing properly. I was actually thinking of the book business and a lot of what we do is trying to verbally share a message with people. But there's a few things we do around titles, workshops and things which are a little bit more interactive, that kind of get people to think, have an experience beyond just what we're saying. So I should probably revisit that and there's probably some more depth to it.
\n\nBut from the golf swing particularly so I just want to dive quickly into the tool itself. So the the muscle memory connection in taking that swing and the visual, visual indication of seeing the rope on the device being straight all the way through the swing, that's the thing that is the break for people. It's that consistent golf swing which is replicated by the rope yeah, so I'll explain a little bit more.
\n\nDave: So the golf club is a rigid object and, because it is leverage, can be put on the shaft, on the club, and what that does is that ruins the golf swing. So Bobby Jones, who might be one of the best golfers ever, if not the best, said if you want to learn how to swing a golf club, put a ball at the end of a rope or a string. So basically that's what this is. So in order for someone to have an actual swing we actually call it it's actually a swing like you throw a ball that it just replaces the shaft. I can't jerk this around. It has to be in motion. So it's one entire motion.
\n\nSo two things. We're overcoming the rigidity of the shaft, which is the problem of every golf shot. So if I admit, if I hit it fat or thin and the golfers are listening to this, they'll know or it goes right or goes left, hooks or slices, all misses are because someone has put a leverage force on the shaft. And then, when I put a leverage force, the equal and opposite of newton's I think that's third law. Newton's third law for every action is an equal and opposite reaction. So if I put a force on the shaft here, my body's move over here differently. When I make this part of body and that's what the pro teaches you it's one entire motion and it's simultaneous, synchronous and balanced, all learned by the body's natural learning system, without Dave saying Stuart, do this and do that, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, and all you see on the driving range all over the world is pure frustration because you can't learn it that way it's impossible.
\n\nI'm not here to say you should or shouldn't do something, but if it's not useful and it doesn't work, yeah, find a different path. But once again, if all I know is prescriptions and you're a golf, if you're, and you're a golf instructor, and you're telling me something and it doesn't work, well, I need another prescription, and that doesn't work. Then I get another prescription, but it's not the prescription, it's the prescript process that doesn't work. So we're really transcending that yeah, changing the methodology completely.
\n\nStuart: So this is an interesting transition into the book I did, and so obviously, the physical, the physical necessity of having the tool and practicing the swing and getting all of that, that feedback through the body. I think a lot of people might then fail to make the connection into a book, and that's what I really like about this project is it's tying those two worlds together. So talk a little bit about the book and then we can run into how we make that connection between the book and and the real world product.
\n\nDave: But thinking about writing the book and the content that's in there and who you talk, who is being targeted or can make the best value from it, talk a little bit about that audience yeah, so it's basically any person who is a sincere enough golfer and has a desire to change their golf swing, and maybe one of the primary sort of looking for qualifications, if I can use that word, is frustration.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nDave: And once again, if you look at a driving range all across America and the club club where I belong, everyone's frustrated because, number one, they're getting a prescription, whether it's from a YouTube video, the instructor at the club or some book. That will never work. Who reads it or who gets introduced to it? There's a better way. Okay, prove it to yourself. It's not about me saying this is the only way, but prove it to yourself.
\n\nOne can learn how to do it. If they can literally just get a piece of rope, it would definitely help them. This is it's going to be more of an accelerator because it has a what do you call this thing? A little weight. At the end it's a little, but ultimately it's all about learning for yourself and in yourself and this training aid. Or if one had a rope, basically, if a person, a golfer, was on the driving range and no preconceived notions of how to swing the golf club, they would teach themselves to have a pretty good to swing the golf club. They would teach themselves to have a pretty good golf swing, even though if they, even if they put some leverage on it. But it's when the interference of prescriptions or me telling somebody how to do it. So the book is basically our way of saying there's a better way, check it out and then introduce them to what we have available, and then someone decides for themselves whether they'd like to try it or not.
\n\nStuart: Right, that idea of frustration being the consistent element amongst all of the audience, taking it away from a qualification step of it's not just a golfer, it's a golfer who's frustrated with it. And they're frustrated because what's the saying? There's the unknowns, unknowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns and no knowns, those elements of the stages of frustration. So if you were naively just smacking the ball around and still having fun, well, that's fine, but that's not the audience, it's the frustration element. So the title of the book talk a little bit about the title, because I think that will resonate with people who are in that situation yeah.
\n\nDave: So the title is your golf club lies to you why your golf swing never changes and what to really do about it. So it doesn't change. For two reasons again, and they're equally as important. One is I'm putting a leverage force on a shaft and I don't even know I'm doing it. And number two is everything is prescriptive and someone's telling me what to do or what not to do, and it just can't work that way. I can't.
\n\nEven so, if I had a whole list of what to do, the body's moving so fast and the brain is moving so slow relative to the body that I couldn't tell my body what to do in that amount of time. So that's another element of frustration. And let's put it, let's call it non, non results or no results is that I'm literally trying to tell myself how to move my body. So if we were in person and I threw a ball to you, you would just catch it, or if I threw something out, you would stick your arm up and catch it, but if you told yourself how to do it, you get hit in the face. Okay, so it's just amazing how the culture of golf and there's no criticism of it, it's just the way it is how the average handicap never changes, the average golf swing never changes and the professional golfers, despite how much they want to change their golf swing, it pretty much reverts back to what they've been doing. They make a little tweak.
\n\nStuart: But once it's built, unless you have something that is non-prescriptive, that can, yeah, overwrite those pretty ingrained patterns. What I like about the title and the subheadings that you've got is that it really punches home some of the it's not. There's a level deeper, there's an emotional resonance with it, a level deeper than just the how to in another world it could have been how to improve your golf swing but the idea of people resonating with that, with the words that you're using, the description, I think it's as people are thinking about writing their own books. This idea of we do try and tell people to balance, the idea of not being too clever because you don't want to hide the message and not make it obvious. But yours strikes that right balance of you, the target audience. It's obvious what it does, it's not hidden.
\n\nBut it also touches on those emotional pain points and and some of the language that is going on in their head already. There there's something's not right element of I'm trying these things but they're not working. We talk quite a lot about the call to action in the book and the fact that there is a job of work that it's trying to do. It's trying to lead people to the next step. So the content talking about the two main frustrations and opening people's eyes to a new way of thinking about something is one, but we do have some commercial intent in the project and the thing that we're doing, so stepping people through to that next step, with your next step being so kind of like physically based Talk a little bit about those where you're leading the audience to.
\n\nDave: Yeah. So in a perfect world, the message that we're sending in the book would resonate so deeply that they would immediately buy the pro. Deeply that they would immediately buy the pro. Or if I was rich and didn't need to pay my bills, I'd give them one for free, because having this in their hands is going to absolutely transform their golf swing in a relatively short period of time.
\n\nBut I can't force that on somebody, right? So everybody's gonna only do it whenever they're ready, right? So whenever they're ready, so we offer that and that you know a scorecard. But ultimately, if and this is part of like honing my message so it does resonate and it inspires action, not just for me and be profitable as a business and of course I want to do that but for the person who wants to improve their golf swing and their frustration, get out of swing prison, hit the ball farther and straighter and have more fun and lower scores all that is possible, okay, I proved it to myself and my students. However, someone who's just hearing this they might have to hear it a bunch of times or whenever they're ready, they'll do it. But ultimately, honing the message so succinctly, coming from the heart, that, like bam, they get it immediately right.
\n\nStuart: I think that's the thing as well, this idea that sometimes people need to hear things several times or in several different ways. The book has a tool to identify those invisible prospects that might otherwise be difficult to get in front of and then be able to share something immediately useful with them. The end result, the product, is easy to conceptualize. It's not like it's some random formula and pat themselves on the head and tap their nose three times. It's not complicated, but you've got the ability of, once you've captured those details, to share some of this ongoing information for those who aren't ready yet and with it being such a visual element that kind of adds to it, because it's a mechanical movement but there's a visual way of sharing stuff.
\n\nSo I know you've got a lot of super useful videos and explainers and guides and tips that you can share with people in the meantime just to reinforce that message, and tips that you can share with people in the meantime just to reinforce that message and share that passion, until they go out to the golf course for the last time and try the latest YouTube video that they've watched.
\n\nAnd then it's the straw that breaks the camel's back and they think back ah, dave, had something that I should try. The videos that you've got and the way that you kind of engage with people and share this information is that was that right first time out of the can. You kind of thought I know I need to shoot some videos on it's these three subjects and that will hit the mark. Or did some of it come from feedback from you've obviously been doing this for a few years, so did it come from feedback from all of the interactions over the time and it's more? It was kind of like more user-led content when realized that someone was struggling with a particular thing yeah, so everyone's in it for themselves, right?
\n\nDave: so if I had a video that says the reason why you slice the ball, but you don't slice the ball, you hook the ball, and you wouldn't pay any attention. Okay, so there's people who slice it and hook it and hit it fat, hit it thin. You can use a general term like inconsistent ball striking, but ultimately it's connecting to that one person. So I mean I could shoot it. I could shoot a video and say, uh, are you tired of losing golf balls? And that's not going to resonate. But if somebody went out and played around the golf lost six pro pro Vs, which are very expensive title is pro Vs, a little plug for them. And then they saw a video that said are you tired of losing golf balls? Bam, I just connected with that person.
\n\nSo each person is going to have their own affliction or problem with a golf club that's leveraged. So a golf club that's leveraged is going to produce all of the bad shots, but each person is going to put leverage on it in a different place, which will have a different result with the ball. So if I put leverage on the top, it'll more than likely slice it. If I put leverage on the bottom, it'll more than likely hook it. What's the answer? Learn how to swing the pro so you don't put any leverage on the bottom. It'll more than likely hook it. What's the answer? Learn how to swing the pro so you don't put any leverage on the golf club and it doesn't matter whether you hook, slice, hit it fat, thin. Those problems will go away after one is trained yeah, and that's a great analogy.
\n\nStuart: I was actually talking with someone earlier this week about this idea. It was a new client we were working with so I was describing the analogy I used was imagine it's a like a strip mall with five different business doors or five different doors in there, but as you get to the other side it then opens up into the one business. So each doorway, each entrance is exact, as you said. Everyone's in it for themselves. So the doorway number one that talks about hooking the shots, that will resonate that group of people. Doorway number five that talks about losing balls, that will resonate with those people. But on the other side it all opens up into the same place, which is the don't need leverage on the club at all, and this is the way you do it. So I think once the a lot of of people we talk about creating the books in terms of a campaign. So I don't think about traditional books, think about conversation, starting books in a campaign sense. But then that kind of locks people's thinking into oh, it's good for this particular campaign. The next level of thinking around it, the next situation, is to think okay, we're thinking about it in terms of campaigns, but that campaign can have multiple entrances. So, just as you described, once the book is created as an asset that serves a number of those entrance points but within the same general problem, then you've got lots of different ways in. So the five facebook ads that talk about the five different swing problems, all leading to a book called your goal, complies to you, then that makes the asset much more leverageable to put over my words today makes it much more leverageable and useful in lots of different ways.
\n\nThe fact that you can interact with people and the scorecard, as you mentioned, is one of the follow-up steps in the book. So as they're answering those questions, you see what the results are. You hear them talking about a particular frustration. Last week you recorded a video that was useful on that. Three years ago you recorded another video that was useful for someone else.
\n\nBut this idea of being able to use all of these little assets within the overall campaign toolbox makes it so much more valuable and, like we say, a book has a disproportionate amount of value that's given to people, or people assign a disproportionate amount of authority to it compared with those exact same words just in a different format. The fact that you can follow up with a book, talking to people, give them a copy of the book as a next step. It's just very, it's very easy to use it as a leveraging asset. So on that point, I'm talking about the different ways of using it. Obviously, facebook ads targeted around golf courses to particular demographics of people who are likely to be the ideal customer is is the first way that springs to mind, but I guess you've got the opportunity to use it physically in some cases or in different.
\n\nDave: Yeah, so I don't have the, so it's brand. So the book literally just came out less than a week ago, so I only have the electronic version and we are running Facebook ads Now. We started in the local area but now we expanded it to the 20 most popular cities for golf. We have the Facebook leads down to like $1 and 61 cents. It's amazing. And the ad is just, and we tried one with the picture of the book. That wasn't so great.
\n\nNow there's just a video of me saying your golf swing isn't broken, there's nothing to fix. It's lying dormant inside you waiting to be revealed and then offering the book. And that's just a general thing to say. We're not even saying read this, if a general thing to say. We're not even saying read this if you slice the ball. We're not even doing that. Yet. We'll try those, the physical books. I'll take them to cigar shops and literally, like you know, get permission to drop them off different country clubs and golf courses that will allow me to do that and give them to my current students, have them in their bag and somebody says, hey, how did you, how did you hit the ball so well, like you used to be terrible.
\n\nStuart: And then he's handling the book yeah, that, actually that can imagine a scenario where someone's been playing with someone for years and suddenly their golf swing improves and someone says to them how the heck did you do that? And I can imagine a scenario where they're pulling the book out but then kind of tucking it away or giving it to their friend and ripping the back page out, or I can. It seems to be that I don't play golf but I've got friends that I like to wind up about things, so you can imagine this scenario where the, the referral, the referral world in the rest of the world is, is you haven't got the same opportunities to kind of give it to your friends in quite the same way that you do here. So I can imagine lots of fun stories coming out about that.
\n\nWhat you were talking about a second ago, though this car shop as an example, this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses where their audience is your audience I always try the default go-to when I think about this example is always kind of like chiropractors and physiotherapists and people in that space.
\n\nWe've worked with people in the past who have helped cyclists and some other groups, but the idea of of chiropractors or I can't remember whether that's a UK term or a US term, but physiotherapists, that type of world, because what you're offering doesn't compete exactly with them, but their audience crosses over with your guys.
\n\nSo I think I'm going to try and remember this as that example of competing, non-complementary, non-competing audiences, because there are going to be a lot of chiropractors or PTs who have got golf playing clients, who have potentially injured themselves on the golf course. You're not offering any competing service to them. You're offering a service that can for the, for the PT or the chiropractor can give them a copy of the book and say, hey, we'll get you sorted out. And actually this is Dave's book talking about the swing itself, because the problem that you've done is from putting leverage in and tweaking your back or pulling something and it just seems like such a nice it's a nice way of amplifying and adding value to their audience without being competing. So, anyway, that, I think, is a great opportunity and it's the example I'm going to use going forwards, because it's pretty obvious to people yes, which gives me an idea where I can actually go to different chiropractors and personal trainers and to have a mailing list.
\n\nDave: Say, look, I want to send this out like it's totally free, it won't cost you anything. And then that gives them something to offer, yeah, as a added value, and it gets me out there when somebody already has a list yeah, exactly, you can imagine, I always compare it to, I always think about it in terms of, like the affiliate marketing world.
\n\nStuart: That's not the world that I play in at all, but when you see good affiliate campaigns set up, they'll provide all of the assets to the people to make it as as easy as possible. So you can imagine drafting a email copy or a letter or a introductory thing that reinforces because you've got a copywriter's head on your shoulders you can reinforce the, their value, you can kind of play up them in a thing that is actually delivering your thing. So there's a lot of way of binding that message in to really give the benefits on both sides. We should do a kind of outside of the podcast but we should do a bit of a brainstorm idea on this complementary competing group of people. Sure, because it's so non-competing it's, it really seems like there's a big opportunity to open that.
\n\nOpen that yes, I agree I was actually just got back from florida last night. I drove down there, had to see a client halfway down, so they boat manufacturer, super yacht manufacturer. So we were talking to those guys and they were going through a load of assets and there was a whole load of visual elements going through it, their brochures. But as we were leaving the town that it was in north carolina was this little cute little town out in east north carolina and, um, as we were leaving, michael the guy gave me the book it's downstairs, gave me the book on the town. So it's kind of almost like a little memorial book of the town, but it was actually generated by a realtor in town. So this idea of Michael adding value to the conversation I was having with him talking about the town, and this third-party realtor had written the guide and the history and some nice illustrations. So again, this idea of other people being able to amplify your message because what you've created gives value to that audience, so many opportunities to drill into that a little bit more.
\n\nOkay, off on a bit of a tangent there, sorry. So this we talked about the next steps and the idea of people will. We've got that hook that captures their passion and the frustration and the thing that resonates with them. We talked about a couple of the advertising marketing places to intersect with where that audience is. They kind of receive it and the next step, hopefully, is that they'll be very frustrated and order a pro in order to be able to fix this issue that they've got For that group of people who aren't ready to move today. So it's for most businesses. It's the minority of people who aren't ready to move today. So it's for most businesses. It's the minority of people who take action straight away. But then, if we can stay in touch with them over the longer period and intersect again when today's the day that they've just hooked it for the last time, what steps do you either have in place at the moment or think about putting place in order to stay in contact with people?
\n\nDave: yeah. So, keeping in line with Dean and Jackson's stuff and your stuff, we have the first 100 days. So when someone gets the book, they immediately get an email and says thank you for downloading the book. If you didn't get it, here's a link. I didn't put that in there yet, but I'm going to Grab a cup of coffee. It's a great read. That was one of Dean's things. And then the very next day uh, I hope you're enjoying the book. How often you get to play golf. So the goal is to strike up a conversation. I have so far I have 46 leads in less than a week and I think four or five. I have conversations started and then after that, every seven days, an email goes out with a super signature which is a call to action. So whenever you're ready, there's four ways I can help you Come to a workshop, buy a pro, get the scorecard, or come see me one-on-one at the driving range. We'll splash in the tub. So that's what we have.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nDave: And then it'll be the flagship where, again, once every week after that, there'll be an email. So where I am right now is the book is to have somebody raise their hand. It's already working beautifully. Now it's honing the process of converting those leads Right, and initially the emails are like a part of the book put in there.
\n\nBut I'm actually gonna, I'm actually gonna hone the message so succinctly and it's going to be so short. A message like, for example, prescriptions, like the truth about the golf swing prescriptions don't work, that's it. And then ask then, like I want it to be more of a question and not even a question that's going to be answered to me, but to themselves Stuart, why do you play golf? That's the like, not me educating them on the swing. Every single email, maybe it's again. So I don't know what the process is. Let me rephrase that I don't know what the process that works is but a probing question. Then a little information about what we do and another probing question yeah, right, so, and so right now we're in the we're in the converting. I'm in the converting the leads process of seeing what works and what works best yeah and I always think.
\n\nFor me personally, I think less is better right because people are time constrained.
\n\nStuart: I mean long. I've never been a fan of long form landing pages because I don't know how far people get through them. The long form emails it just gets a little bit too much. The ability to consistently or regularly do less, because us as the insiders, we kind of see every email that we write and we kind of sweat over and give attention to it. So our view of our own outbound marketing is seeing 100% of the big picture. But the recipient, even the most engaged clients, you know yourself from your own mailbox, even the people who you really want to read their message and you're really in tune with it, and in a perfect world you'd consume every single one, even those people you don't open every single email because you're out on the golf course when one comes in and then three hours later when you get back it's gone in the stream. So I think more regular but shorter and more consumable is the better way around of doing it rather than just hoping that there's this one mammoth one that will do all of the work.
\n\nDave: So, yeah, I completely agree. And also it's a matter of how well does the email connect with the person that's reading it? So, for example, I read every single one of your emails and every single one of dean's emails because it has value to me. Okay, and I've been getting dean's emails for years and years and I've definitely, like I bought email mastery and I bought the a profit activators like online program, but then it was years before I did anything else, so it could be literally a year or two, but as long as the content that's being sent that person has value to them, they're going to open it yeah, yeah, yeah.
\n\nStuart: A funny story that we tell sometimes is one of the realtors up in, payann Kenny, who's a good friend of ours. He we've told this story before, but he purged his list once. So he's been around for I mean decades. He purged his list and said okay, anyone who hasn't opened a message in or hasn't haven't had any contact with in five years, I'm going to purge them off. I don't know why, because it's no more cost of keeping those people and purging them. But anyway, he was in a spring cleaning mood so purchased the list and then about eight months later got a voicemail which got a phone call which went to voicemail, so he was able to play it to us next time. He was down in fort lauderdale in uh, in winter haven and the message was hey, kenny's Bob here. I hope this is the right number. I don't know what happened. I must have done something so I got off your list. I used to get your message all the time. Anyway, my sister passed away recently, so we're selling her oceanfront home. We've got an oceanfront home that we want to sell and then we want to consolidate and buy somewhere a little bit further inland now that we're getting older. So anyway, I hope this number is yours. I actually had to find another realtor in town to get your number, so anyway, I'm really hoping this finds you.
\n\nThere's kind of the backside, the back end of that story is everyone assumes that leads are dead after a certain point. But this person, just as you said, had been happily consuming the stuff for a period of time until they were ready. Ready, and then the point that they were ready because kenny had purchased the stuff months before. They had to jump through several hoops in order to get back to the person who they felt was their guy. It's just that kenny had no indication that he was their guy for them. But how many people on that list never went to those steps? Are we ready to sell our house? What was the name of that realtor guy? Oh, you know, I don't know, but I don't get his emails anymore. Okay, well, let's just pick up the yellow pages and call someone down the street.
\n\nSo, idea of separating out the collecting of the leads from the converting of the leads and then the converting of the leads it's only either today or not today, and it's not. If it's not today, all we can do is keep putting stuff out there and hopefully on the day that is the day it will intersect. So yeah, great, great insights on the life of lead conversion. I always also like that story because I kind of imagine it from the point of view of the intermediate real estate agent that got the call. So he kind of answers the phone and the guy there says, oh yeah, I'm trying to sell my two oceanfront homes and buy another one. And the guy rubs his hands and say, oh, fantastic.
\n\nDave: How my two oceanfront homes and buy another one, and the guy rubs his hands and say oh, fantastic, how can I help you? Well, do you have kenny's phone number? And then the other side of that story is and this definitely resonates with me, because I used to be a real estate agent or a broker and finding out someone that I sold let's say, I sold them a house, just sold their house, or listed their house, and they didn't call me, but I never sent them one single thing right, yeah, yeah, yeah, how many times the opposite of it yeah, yeah, you think that it's easy to think that, okay, I'm the person that they know I they.
\n\nStuart: Why would they not call me next time? But if someone else, it's so in the moment, like even with people's best will and intention. If it's like with referrals you hear that all the time. Oh, you know what? You just mentioned something about the golf swing. I was with someone last week who was complaining about their shot all the time. I should have said something.
\n\nWell, we can't rely on other people to be as into our business as we are, so to be able to consistently send them something of value. The fact that we've got a tool that helps them opt in makes that invisible prospect visible. But now we've got something that we can refer back to. And I like your approach of linking back to things that are mentioned in the book because it does give that consistency and it doesn't have to be every message, but at least kind of re-anchoring it every so often. It helps people understand and remember what the message is like.
\n\nPoint three on why that swing currently sucks. They might not remember it haven't just read it once, but after three or four messages where you're illustrating or iterating on the point. It just helps people kind of remember and that element sink in. So that just means that they're more likely to remember you at the day when it becomes the day, that is, today, or if they're talking to someone else. They've got a framework in which to remember you by um time. I say I think this is my standard wrap-up for podcasts. I always say that time goes fast, but but it really has done. Again, I want to make sure that people can follow along and see what you're doing and if they are a player, then do something to improve their swing themselves. So where's a good place for people to go to to find out more?
\n\nDave: yes, so they can go to YourGolfClubLiesToYou.com, and that's where they can get the book. Or they can go to SlingTheClub.com, which is my personal website, which they can also get the book there as well, and some other goodies that they. If they see, uh, the value in that, I'd offer a little advice to someone or so anybody listening who's a golfer, whether you get a pro or not, learn to teach yourself without anybody giving you instruction, and you'll be far the better for it at least you kind of got that consistent message in your head and there's not kind of all of these different conflicting messages coming in if you do it that way around yeah, well, I would say, like, the person who's going to learn the fastest is one who doesn't have any preconceived notions how to do it right, yeah, yeah, yeah it's.
\n\nStuart: I just remember I've changed vehicles recently and put a uv tint on the windows to keep some of the heat out, and on the company's website it was there was a price for doing it fresh, and then there was a price for doing it if you had an existing film on there, and the price for removing the existing film was like three times the price of the actual job. It illustrates that point that trying to remove someone else's work or trying to over bad habits, it's a lot harder than just going in fresh and learning to walk by taking the steps rather than, rather than, consuming which leads, which just reminded me of something.
\n\nDave: So the truth, which is what we have here. So this is the truth about the golf swing, and my workshops are going to be called that. As a matter of fact, I'm going to shoot an email to the 46 leads I have and say, hey, we're doing a workshop. The truth about the golf swing. Would you like to join us? The truth is always a subtraction to the least common denominator, the simple, and that's what the pro does and that's what the swing is to get rid of everything. That's not your true swing, and what's left is your true swing.
\n\nStuart: Right. That's such a great way of thinking about it and I think the majority of business owners out there who are on our list because they've thought about writing a book in some way, that's true for them as well. Less is more, in a certain way, and just taking that one step at a time towards being able to help someone. But the simplifying it's a busy world out there, so the more simplification the better. Dave really appreciate it. Everyone that's listening. We'll put links through to Dave's two sites in the show notes and in the podcast player, so definitely check out those and follow it through. Dave, thanks again for the time today. It'll be really great. Let's circle back in a few months and see how things are converting and what that follow-up sequence is turned into. Because I think what that follow-up sequence is turned into, because I think this will be valuable to share with people some of the ideas that we test out there thank you.
\n\nDave: Story had a lot of fun. Thank you fantastic.
\n\nStuart: Okay, everyone, thanks for listening. Again, as I say, check out the show notes and follow the links through to dave stuff and where. If today's the day that it's good to get your book started, then obviously just reach out to us and we'll be here to help. Okay, thanks everyone. We will catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with golf disruptor and author of 'Your Golf Club Lies to You,' Dave DePula, about his novel method of coaching golfers to improve their swing. \r\n\r\nBased in Palm Desert, Dave shares his journey from real estate deals to the driving range and reveals his approach to helping people break bad habits by going back to fundamentals.\r\n\r\nHis book serves as a powerful tool, a testament to the value of joining a conversation that's already brewing in the minds of your ideal clients. Dave discusses the importance of identifying their motivations, understanding their challenges, and the unique value his book brings to the table, sparking meaningful conversations.\r\n\r\nWith an identifiable market, like golfers, we discussed marketing tactics, such as placement in pro shops or targeted ads, as well as practical methods for building rapport using books.","date_published":"2024-04-28T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/74a2a4ca-56bc-45bc-9e5b-a369e5391a83.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30917807,"duration_in_seconds":2566}]},{"id":"d56d18f7-3d68-408e-be78-38498f534d17","title":"Ep164: Providing Value with Trisha Talbot","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/164","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Trisha Talbot of Doc Properties to explore the synergies of healthcare and property investment and how she's using her book 'Essential' to start a conversation with the investors she can best serve.\n\nWith over two decades of experience, Tricia shares the field's potential for both returns and social impact through facilities that elevate care optimized by telemedicine trends, and we cover why the asset class attracts stakeholders seeking stability and community benefit. \n\nTrisha's book is an invaluable resource to the investors she works with, outlining the benefits of these opportunities, such as long-term leases and triple net arrangements.\n\nIt's a great example of understanding your clients' motivations and creating a book that provides value to start the relationship.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\nStuart introduces Trisha Talbot from Doc Properties, highlighting her expertise in healthcare real estate investment and the purpose-driven opportunities it presents.\nTrisha discusses the critical role of healthcare properties in society and how impact investing in this sector can benefit both society and investors.\nWe examine the effects of telemedicine on healthcare, noting the potential for specialized facilities to provide improved patient care and efficiencies.\nStuart shares insights into the medical office asset class, emphasizing its stability and the deeper connection investors can have with their investments due to social benefits.\nTrisha explains the advantages of long-term leases and triple net arrangements in medical office buildings for landlords and tenants.\nThe importance of educating potential investors about the value of medical office assets is highlighted, along with Tricia's book as a foundation for understanding this asset class.\nWe delve into the importance of personalizing investment strategies to individual needs and market conditions, using education as a starting point for engagement.\nTrisha outlines the characteristics of the ideal clients for medical real estate investments, primarily accredited investors with a vision for tangible assets.\nThe discipline required to write a book is explored, including the process of planning and writing, as well as the importance of resonating with the audience.\nStuart and Trisha wrap up with a promise to reconnect in a few months to follow up on progress and encourage listeners to check the show notes for further information on obtaining her book.\n\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/164\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nTrisha Talbot Contact Information:\nWebsite:Doc Properties\nEmail: ttalbot@docproperties.com\nLinkedIn:LinkedIn Profile\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nTrisha: I wrote the book to sort of to provide it from an investment angle of this is how the asset class, like, this is kind of an overall description of the asset classes is why it's important.\n\nAnd these are the mechanisms, the financial mechanisms of why it can be so successful. And the long term leases are are the primary. Um, reason why this asset class is so successful\n\nStuart: eHy everyone, welcome back to another episode of the book more show. It's stewart bell here, and today I'm joined by Trisha talbot. Trisha, how you doing? I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for having me. pleasure, I'm excited to share this journey with people. \n\nAs we get a chance to share author stories with people, I think it does a couple of hopefully it does a couple of services for people. One, it kind of reminds them that, hey, this is something that they should do as well. But two, it really kind of highlights the different paths and approaches that people bring to the project. We always kind of we've all got the same outcome of trying to start conversations with people and we're using books as that mechanism. But how we each get to that point, or or the the steps we take through the process, it's, but how we each get to that point or the steps we take through the process, it's unique for each individual person. So I'm excited to share your journey. So why don't we start at the beginning and give people a bit of background about who you are and the organization? \n\nTrisha: Sure, my name is Trisha Talbot and my company is Doc Properties. It's a healthcare real estate investment and advisory firm. So I'm coming out of the brokerage side of the business. I'm having about 20 years of experience doing every type of transaction, but specifically well, I'd say 90% in healthcare properties, and I really like the asset class for a few reasons. \n\nOne, because I feel like the buildings and the facilities serve a great purpose. You know people, even though telemedicine has started to develop, it's not going to replace inpatient visits. You know there's, I think, remote monitoring and stuff like that are going to enhance and enhance health care services. But you, any critical care, any chronic care and any examinations or procedures always have to be done inside a facility, and so those facilities serve a need and a purpose that I think is good for society. So that sort of drives me to want to stay in the asset class. And then you know real estate. There has to be investors in order to have those facilities, and so I think it's a great investment for people and for people that are looking to have impact investing or purposeful investing in something that is going to impact others. I think it's a great way to not only have a mechanism to grow your capital, but also a mechanism to impact people in a real way people in a real way. \n\nStuart: It's interesting, isn't it? Because you think about telemedicine and the all the heat and light that's around moving things to remote. But the opportunity that it opens up is these facilities now are going to be dealing with a smaller volume of people. They don't have to serve quite such a broad purpose. They can really niche down to provide the, the specific care for the type of person that's coming in, without having to worry about catering to all those people who are covered by by telemedicine and that first stage kind of triaging. So it makes it a real um, the use case or the usefulness or the, the job of work. The purpose of those facilities can become much more targeted because they don't have to be so broad, and that seems like it's an opportunity both for better customer experiences but also for investors to really dial in and anchor into that the value that those particular types of buildings are providing. \n\nTrisha: Yeah, I mean it benefits the whole healthcare ecosystem in a very big way. So not only what you're talking about, but people in like rural communities, you know, to have an initial triage over Zoom or whatever the platform is, and maybe some follow ups, or you know if it's, if they have one conversation and there needs to be other conversations with some specialists to really try to dive down so that when they do have to drive to an hour, hour and a half to a facility, they more or less know exactly what they're going in for, instead of having to go, you know, four or five times for some tests that may or may not be needed. So, or, and and I mean healthcare the industry itself is just plagued with, you know, being astronomically more expensive. Insurance companies are pushing back, um, you know physicians are are realizing um less on the reimbursement side, but you know that's not keeping up with inflation and so all of their other costs are going up. \n\nAnd you know patients themselves now that they're burdening a lot of the costs of healthcare system, they really want it to be specific and precise. \n\nAnd you know it's also good for the medical community because there's a lot of things that can get taken care of before you get to like a really high end specialist that you know doesn't see patients, that are and I say that's just, you know not a waste of their time, but that shouldn't be seeing them, that they should be seeing somebody else. And so all of these medical care clinicians, you know they can really operate at the top of their license and specific to what they're doing and that makes them better at what they do as well. So I think it's a small part of a bigger ecosystem in there and obviously this is, you know, the real estate, is this fixed asset, but if you think about the ecosystem that it serves, you know, I think these facilities can be really specialized, like to your point, and when people come in, they come in, they get exactly what they need, they have the right practitioners in there to serve them and, you know, and it saves everybody cost and time, which is, you know, valuable. \n\nStuart: Yeah, your clients in this relationship? Are they on the real estate side they're the either the investors or the property owners or are they the practices and the practice managers who are kind of kidding out and looking for the right facilities? Are you dealing on both sides? Yeah, so I work with both. \n\nTrisha: So I work with. So the co-investors that I work with, they, they I do have a lot that are physicians. They tend to have a high net worth and they, you know, like to to have a mechanism to continue to grow their capital, and this is an easy asset for them to understand. They do, do you know? They invest in a variety of things, but, um, this is something that they can sort of sink their teeth in and really understand, so I think it's easy for them. Um, but I do have just investors that are interested in in real estate investing, and this is one asset class that they invest in it's interesting. \n\nStuart: We often talk about niching down and addressing that single target market as if you're talking to the one perfect client. But it's really a. It's a reminder that the world is full of huge niches that are very specific enough and as people are thinking about writing a book for their business and there's always this fear that I don't want to miss out on people by being too specific but the idea of a real estate investment area that's specifically looking at medical properties, as an outsider you'd think that that was very specific and and unique. But your experience and the clients you work with, this is a huge business that, just within this particular discipline, is more than big enough to support a business in its own right. So this idea of dialing down and being specific it allows you to talk the language, speak to the people at a level that they're comfortable and convenient with. Was that the case from the start? Did the business start out specifically with medical properties or did you dial that niche in over time? \n\nTrisha: you know I've always I mean I worked some office, but mostly, um, I found the medical office more interesting. I felt, um, I was helping the clients better. You know they they're they're these busy practicing physicians and they want somebody to advocate for them. They need to understand the decisions and the financial impact. They have to have space. That, you know needs to be in a way that they can. You know that's a work that also has the not only like the basic functionality but, you know, allows for conversations and solving all those problems made my day more interesting than you know just traditional office users that need. You know a couple of private offices that are in a room, in a conference room, in a bullpen area. So you know it's just a personal preference. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and when you find that niche and it resonates and you kind of naturally tend towards that group of people, it's almost self-selecting in a way. Um, yeah, the investors that you're working with, um their motivations, um, there's the return on investment, which everyone, I guess, kind of thinks of as the initial thing that they're interested in. But as you've worked with them over time, that kind of superficial or surface level interest, does that go deeper into? You talked about some of the um the psychological uh, not psychological, the uh preference benefits of wanting to work in this industry because of its stability, and then the, the giving or the doing good element of working in this industry. The investors that you're working with, has there been that level of more deeper connection or their motivations, above and beyond just the? This is a good asset class to be in. \n\nTrisha: So that's probably more my motivation and why I keep doing it, but obviously the numbers always have to make sense for you know, you're not going to get people to invest, you know, just on an idea and a hope, and nobody should. \n\nBut that's where. So that's kind of the. The reason why I put this book together is because you know that's that's why I do it and you know that's my why. But you know and obviously at the end of the day that translates into finding good investments that you know it's a win win for everybody. But the book I I wrote that you know it's a win-win for everybody. \n\nBut the book I wrote because you know it's not going to win any Nobel Prizes, but it's a basic introductory to what is a medical office asset, why is it so valuable? And people that and it can talk to both parties. So when clinicians sometimes want to occupy or invest in a building, when they're an owner user, you know, over the course of my career I've had, you know, very sophisticated clinicians that are very well versed in it and then some that come to the table just saying, hey, you know what, I'm a physician and I'm a really good practice and I should get like the lowest lease rate and I only want to do like three years and oh yeah, I want the landlord to build out the entire space, which is like half a million dollars. And you know I don't want to put any skin in the game and you know there's a reason why that can't happen. I mean a landlord, landlord just has to say no. I mean there's no way that that makes sense. \n\nAnd because most of them have, you know, debt and then also other investment partners you know, that that doesn't work and so, you know, I wrote the book to sort of to provide it from an investment angle of this is how the asset class like. This is kind of an overall description of the asset class. This is why it's important and these are the mechanisms the financial mechanisms of why it can be so successful. And the long-term leases are, the landlord can fund a significant amount of tenant improvements because of the lease terms and the lease rates are a little bit higher than traditional office. I mean, they're not as high, I would say, as sometimes retail, but they are a little bit higher to account for that and they're mostly triple net. So those operating expenses get passed on to the tenant triple net. So those operating expenses get passed on to the tenant. And that's better for both parties. \n\nBecause in medical, you know, there's different practices that use different levels of electricity and it's not necessarily fair, if one is a super high user, for the other tenants to pay for that. And then also each practice seems to, in my experience, have their own particular preferences for cleanliness, and so then you know, trip trip also allows them to hire their own janitorial company. So there's a lot of reasons that that's a good thing. But for investors, you know, in the book I kind of explain why these mechanisms are the way they are and how it, you know, adds to the value of a medical office building asset. And I do it in a high enough level where, you know it just sort of gives them an overview. It's a really quick read and I intended for it to be that way. \n\nI'm in the process of finishing recording it, so to be on audio as well, and I think at some point you know on video and I think at some point you know on video. \n\nBut you know I wanted to be able to say you know, here's the mechanisms of how to look for a good medical office asset, like what are the mechanics of it. So when then you know, down the road, you know I hope that it encourages people to give me a call and, you know, be interested in hopefully investing in properties that I find, and then it will be easier for them to understand when I'm explaining why the asset is valuable. You know what financial aspects of it make it make sense for a good investment. And then hopefully, you know, this book will give them a little bit of enough education where you know they can understand what they're investing in, which is the goal. I mean, you don't want to invest in something you don't understand and you shouldn't, so. This, I think, at least gives them enough information, where then you know the additional questions that they have. It will help them finish their due diligence it's such a great point. \n\nStuart: I was just on a call with someone before we. We've recorded today and making the the point, or or sowing the seed of the idea that the book, the product of the book, that outcome of the the job of work, is to start that conversation. It's not a college textbook. You're not trying to educate people in the complete how to do it yourself, because for most of us that's not practical. I mean, the likelihood of someone taking all of the steps themselves is pretty much zero. So the opportunity of the book is to either A introduce a new idea to someone, someone who is familiar with investing but hasn't thought about medical as a specific niche, or, if they have, then highlight two or three of the key, um, the key elements of it that can make it a successful, a more successful project than another. But the outcome is always a conversation with someone. Now, as you say, hopefully that someone is you, and the book is a great way of identifying who those people might be in order to keep the conversation going right. But the outcome, the product, the job of work is that conversation and to write something that is a accessible introduction, that gives people enough value and creates that sense of reciprocity or relationship building that translates into a phone call. That's the real difference maker. \n\nAnd I think the point that you said at the end is also a key one that often gets overlooked. It's this idea that when people do, then eventually reach out and you have that call. The conversation that you're having with them is out and you have that call. The conversation that you're having with them is informed by the information that they've already read and consumed. So at least you know they've got a. Even if they just look at the table of contents, there's still some key signposts in there. At least they've got some level of understanding. And then if you're saying things, or as you're saying things, that echo the words that they read in the book kind of subconsciously, that's the it's not the first time they're hearing it you're reinforcing something that they already believe. So it really does. This idea of an introductory start to the conversation, I think, is the best way of thinking about books absolutely. \n\nTrisha: And, um, you know, uh, for it's also, you know, for investors to that are maybe familiar with, with, you know, investing in real estate but haven't really ventured into medical office. And you know, for both target markets of mine. I've just gotten the question so many times like so what is so special about medical office, why is that important and what makes it so different? And it's you know, obviously I can have two sentences, but you know, doesn't really it wouldn't, so my two sentences aren't going to make somebody write a check. So this, you know, I think this dives into it a little bit more. And, you know, for those that are familiar with real estate investing, for those that are familiar with real estate investing or those that are familiar with the health care industry, you know it sort of brings both of them together to understand why this is an important asset class. And both from you know, I start with describing how it relates to the health care industry, but then also, and then, but it does have to have. \n\nStuart: So you know, it is a commercial real estate property, so it has to have certain financial fundamentals in order to and highlighting those elements for people, particularly in this um, in this arena, where people, even if they don't have a very good understanding, a lot of people have got a good reckon or think they know what their area is. So it's not, you're not introducing a brand new idea, it's the nuance of this as a subset of all of the properties you could choose. Here are some really unique elements to this as an asset class separate from the other commercial elements. So I think it's. It makes it then easy to, or easier to highlight a couple of those key takeaways and those key um difference makers in in property selection or investment selection. You can really identify a couple of things that are building on real estate investing as a general topic. \n\nSo, it does allow you to move that conversation a little bit faster towards positioning you as the expert, because you've got this niche understanding and, like we said at the start, putting it in a way that is accessible and friendly. And the introductory level, because no one wants to read anything where they feel stupid or that no, yeah, it's not an investment book and it wouldn't. \n\nTrisha: it would be unfair to you know, even kind of describe, like I mean I could describe other investments that have been successful, but I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to. \n\nI didn't want it to be um, numbers heavy and super jargon heavy, because then people start to tune out and they close it, they don't want to pick it up and so and I think people like to see numbers easy, like on one sheet of paper, and be able to understand it. And you know, trying to put it in a book over various chapters where somebody feels like they have to sit down and take notes or open up a spreadsheet to understand what you're saying Wasn't wasn't the point. And every single property is different. I mean there's no property that's the same. You know two properties can't occupy the same space, just in, you know, by physics. So you know there's, there's absolutely no, no property investment that would be the same. So it would be unfair to really sort of say, okay, you can talk about other successful ones, but I really wanted to stay away from that in this book anyway. \n\nStuart: Yeah, because, again, the job of work is to encourage people to reach out and call, because that's the real, that's going to make a difference for them having a tailored conversation to their requirements and their area and their specifications, and the deals that are available today and not the deals that were available yesterday. \n\nYeah, you talked at the start about the different formats for the book. So trying to make it as accessible as possible in terms of an audio version and video versions. So trying to make it as accessible as possible in terms of an audio version and video versions, this idea of the book being the jumping off point of the conversation. But then there's it's people are either ready today or not today, and that not today might be tomorrow or it might be in 10 years time. So this idea of keeping people engaged have you, is there, anything set up in place at the moment? Or have you thought about that in terms of okay, once someone's requested a copy of the book, I know that not everyone's going to call me straight away, so what information do I have? What reinforcing or amplifying elements are there that I can share with people over the long run that keeps them engaged? \n\nTrisha: Yeah, so, um, you know, the the book is free to download the the hard, the electronic copy, and so I'll give my email at the end at the landing pages. Um, just just gotten finished so I can email them the landing page, but it asks them for, um, their email and phone number, and then it they'll get another. You know, they'll be brought through to the download and so once I get their email and phone number, I'm going to call them, you know, and just introduce myself, thank them for being interested in my book and just offering myself to answer any questions once they finish the book. So to make that connection. And then I have a monthly newsletter that I send out. I send out one for clinician owners and one for just investors. They're welcome to sign up for both, but the information is a little bit tailored, so I send that out and then you know I periodically I'll send out, like, some educational marketing materials. \n\nI try not to spam people's email. I know that the I think the marketing professionals would say that I have to send something out every week and maybe I should. But I just feel like my clients are very busy and when they get 200 emails in their email they just start randomly deleting and it doesn't, you know, they don't read it. So I think monthly has seemed to work. Um, my unsubscribes have gone way down and I think that's because my emails are are, you know, they're not spamming their, their system, and and they're pretty informative and easy to read, like the newsletters sometimes that I get. That it's almost like you have to sit down and kind of like, read a book again. \n\nI'm trying to think that nobody has time these days. That didn't want to do that. So I keep mine very, you know, light on words, big on pictures and lots of places that they can click to, depending on what they're interested in. So I keep them engaged that way. And you know, as I have properties to invest in, if they're part of my community, then depending on what they're interested in, because then I ask in if they're part of my community, then and depending on what, what they're interested in, because then I ask them if they are interested in investments and they have another form to fill out to tell me a little bit more about what specific type and price range, and so I try to be very specific and targeted in my marketing the the right message at the right time. \n\nStuart: It's such a difficult balance, as you say. A lot of people recommend just keep going. I think it's Dan Kennedy, like the Dan Kennedy approach. It's something like the five-star prospects on the list of five-star prospects regardless and anyone who isn't a five-star prospect they're a waste of time anyway. So you might as well just keep hammering and hammering and people will self-select. But that's a very aggressive approach and particularly with the long burn, the long time frame of this type of investment. It's not a checkout purchase where you just hit a button and you can buy whenever. This is built on relationships and trying to find the right deal. It could be a multi-year approach. \n\nTrisha: So it's a multi-year approach and it involves a ton of trust and you know, once they trust you and you know they've invested with you one time and it's successful, um, they, they trust you again. And so I don't keep that lightly and I don't need a thousand investors. Um, right, I, I need investors that believe in the product type that you know, trust me enough. I mean, their money is retirement money or it's savings, or it's generational wealth that they're trying to preserve, their, their capital. So you know they're all, they're all investing for, I think, a personal reason at least. At least you know the people that I've been talking to, um, and so you know, I, I take, I take the relationships. I'd rather have hundreds of intentional relationships than thousands of unintentional relationships. \n\nStuart: I guess that would be a good thing I think particularly the nature of the clients you're working with. It's a high ticket item that, as you say, the numbers have to work. But above working with it's a high ticket item, as you say, the numbers have to work. But above and beyond that, it's the trust and the relationship that the person's got that that you're the right person to manage and put together the deal. \n\nTrisha: Not, it's unlikely that it's going to happen without having a phone call or a conversation. It's not just wiring some money. Someone sends me a check and I don't know who they are. That would be weird. So I would be finding out who they are pretty quick Because you know, both peace of mind and KYC requirements. That's my due diligence. I do need to know who you are too, right yeah. \n\nStuart: Likewise, if a suitcase of money turns up, you can ask some questions there yeah, the suitcase of unmarked bills shows up um yeah, my brother I've mentioned it before on the show my brother's a yacht broker, um, so obviously they're dealing with high-end clients and at the one end of the spectrum there's kind of lucky losing tire kickers and at the other end of the spectrum there's kind of the the long, long-term relationships to to get to a sale. But, uh, I often think that, um, I often think that he has to do a certain amount of due diligence as well, both from the the lucky side of it and not spending too much time on people who are just really not, um, not in the right place, but then from the other side as well. This is quite a lot of money and and you must see the same where people's assets come from it can get quite complicated. Some. It's like moving all things and combining them together. There's a certain amount of due diligence. Just make sure that you don't fall the wrong side of some later investigation. \n\nTrisha: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of fraud and so you have to be conscious of that. I don't, I don't need that in my life and you know they're doing. You know now you're a small business, you know you have to report who you are, and the beneficial owners, and you know their wire fraud is on the rise. \n\nStuart: And then there's all of these anti-terrorist clauses and things like that, and so, yeah, you gotta, you gotta follow the money and make sure it's coming from the right place yeah, again, another reason why starting the conversation with the book that leads to the people who are interested in the subject, and then following through with the material that you're putting out. It's all relationship building over the long term. So those names on the list that you become familiar with and the emails over time as that builds into a relationship that ends in a transaction, it all helps to give that certainty that you aren't dealing with a real person with a real situation at the other end. Yeah, um, the ideal clients. We were talking briefly about the people who you work with, and some of them are investors and some of them are on the medical side. The ideal person is what am I trying to say, the ideal person within that group? Do they have certain characteristics? Is this likely to be their first deal, or are they seasoned investors? Or are they, more often than not, owner operators? \n\nTrisha: Or talk to me a little bit about who the ideal person is Well, they need to be accredited investors, so they have typically hit a. If they are employed, they're high net earners. So if not, then they are just high net worth individuals. But so they have to. They, if they are, you know, employed, they're usually, I mean, I think they're mid to late careerists. I mean, I think they're mid to late careerists, but I don't think any. I think early careerists would probably invest in properties that their practice owns as a way. You know, I think that's the way they would do it. \n\nBut they're high net worth individuals of some sort to be accredited investors is the target. \n\nStuart: Yeah, interesting. Actually, I never really thought that because commercial residential real estate you don't really think about people having to be accredited. So that extra caveat, understanding things like that though, as I'm thinking about people listening to the show there's some people who fall into that category and this might be a market for them them they haven't necessarily had access to before because they haven't known a person. But then for other people who don't meet that criteria just the assessment that you've gone through and the understanding of who the clients are. So writing at a level, writing, writing the book and then reaching out to audiences at the level who are accredited, this idea of beneficial constraints this now in the scope of what you're doing. So understanding who it's not for is almost as important as understanding who it is for, because it just helps in the creation process, right? \n\nI imagine there's a. There's a line between. It's easy to find yourself going off on a slight tangent and talking to groups of people who aren't the target audience. In your case it might be non-accredited, but that would be an easy line to see. But even where the line's a little bit um, not as explicit as that, it's easy to talk off on a on a tangent. So having this idea of beneficial constraints where you really know okay, I'm talking to this person in this scenario, probably coming from this position it just makes the whole creation process a lot easier. Did you notice that, as you were bringing it together, um, what was included and what wasn't included was was clear in your mind? \n\nTrisha: yeah. So I didn't particularly address that, the high net worth accredited investor in this particular in the the book, and it doesn't. I mean if you're interested in the asset class, I mean there's different ways to become an accredited investor. You know you can create LLCs and you can pull money and you know there's, so there's there's different ways to get there if you're really driven to do it. But you know, I remember when I was, you know, early in my career and I sat down with a financial advisor and you know you're like looking at what you're going to do for retirement and you're like, okay, well, obviously, stocks and bonds over the long term, yes, yes, yes. But I said what is? You know, what is investments in a three to five year investment horizon that you can make money at beats the stock market? And he was like, well, that's the million dollar question that everybody asks. So you know, everyone has different buckets or should have different buckets of money and, um, you know, three to five years stock market. \n\nYou know, for people that like stocks, they like stocks. I like I understand real estate, I mean I understand, um, stocks, but I find it more interesting to understand a. I understand real estate, I mean I understand stocks but I find it more interesting to understand a piece of real estate from the right role and personal preference. And I enjoy the stock and bond market but that's a very long-term one and you know, while I'm you know I got I got a long runway left and I really like getting in there and understanding these, turning properties around and, you know, selling them for more than you buy them for and really adding a lot of value. So with that, you know, I've always it's always been like well, what do you invest in for a three to five year time horizon? And it really goes to. \n\nYou know you have to find private investments, but that can be also risky. I mean I've heard horror stories of people. You know you have to find private investments but that can be also risky. I mean I've heard horror stories of people you know investing with others that you know they they get are either like hit with so many fees that you know the investor doesn't make any money and then they never do it again. \n\nSo the private market it's I think it has a ton of wonderful opportunities, but you have I mean it's like you have to look at a thousand deals to find like maybe five that work. It's not just the investment part, it is also the person behind it. So a couple of things is one, you know, I wanted to introduce myself a little bit but then also introduce the asset class. And for people that aren't credit investors yet, you know they can very well be in any given you know, maybe next year. So it's more to educate people about the investing in the asset class so that they can be educated and if it's not now, it can be later. So it didn't really in the book, it's not just, you know, it doesn't really talk about the type of investor, it's really more about why is this asset class valuable? \n\nStuart: Right, and that's such a great point as well, actually, because this idea of not sifting and sorting there's a low cost of acquisition of people who are interested in the book and therefore you're able to get names and email addresses. So there's no need to try and filter at this stage because, just as you said, the person might not be, it might not be their time today, either because they're busy doing other things or they're not yet accredited. But six months, 12 months, three years down the track, that relationship has been built from today. So no need to sift and sort. \n\nTrisha: There's no additional cost of having those people on the list's just all upside to build a relationship yeah, and then if they get on my email list and they, you know, do read my emails they'll get to know me a little bit more. Um, you know, in all of my emails I I took the advice of somebody to add a little bit of a personal snippet. I've never really done that before and, um, I'm like who cares about my personal life? But people, I think, when they're investing with you, they kind of want to know who you are and what your values are. So it's just like one paragraph and like a photo of some recent activity of some sort. \n\nBut you know, so if they get my emails, they will get to know me a little bit, and I think that's important because I think you really want to put your money, you want to spend your money based on your values. You know, I think um for a lot of people, and so, if you so again, like I said, the financial asset that you're investing in is just one part of the puzzle. It's also who are you investing with? Um, and it's as important as am I going to get my money back, which is the million dollar question, um, you know, and am I going to make money on that? So, so all of that goes hand in hand it's interesting. \n\nStuart: Um, in the last couple of weeks I've in. It's one of those things where you kind of uh, tune into something and then you start seeing everywhere, but the personal elements I, my natural position is the same who cares? Just crack on, let's do the work. But it's definite that people build a rapport and when I think about the podcasts I listen to or the YouTube channels or the books I read or the people that you follow, there is a certain sense of relationship there, even if it's very one-sided, right, even though I, when I talk about it, I undervalue those things, I think in my own experience I do value them and it's and it's probably we obviously encourage people to put stories and anecdotes and examples in the books to illustrate them, as mentioned before, but including some of the personal stuff. \n\nI wonder, actually, on the landing page you were talking about going from the landing page to the thank you page, including a video on that page with a hey, thanks for downloading a copy of the book. It's one of the key points I really wanted to get across is X, y and Z, but it puts your face there and puts a real person to it. That might be an interesting thing to add there. \n\nTrisha:\nYeah, well, there's a reason why People Magazine is incredibly successful yeah, yeah, yeah. \n\nStuart: Um, cam always goes fast on these podcasts, I think I know everyone by saying it goes so quick. Um, I want to make sure that people can get um find out more about what you and what you do. I know the landing page isn't up just as we're recording, but where's a good place to point people so they can find out more? \n\nTrisha: yeah, it'll be up in just a few days and unfortunately it's like a perfect storm because my website's being redone and like the landing page and everything. So the easiest way to email me, trisha ttalbot@docproperties.comI'm very fast on email so I'll send you the landing page right away, as soon as I get it I'm not instant, but you know I would say within 24 hours or so I would send it to you. So just email me. I think that's the simplest. ttalbot@docproperties.com. My website is docpropertiescom and it will be. It's up. There is one up, but there'll be a new one up fairly soon and from there there'll be a link directly to the book from the webpage. \n\nStuart: Well, I'm not sure that we've put so I think we're probably we're recording on a Wednesday, I think, so we'll put this up the following Friday, so by that point some things might have changed. But either way, recommend that people go across and take a look at what you're doing. I'll put links to all of these in the show notes so, as people are listening on podcast players, there'll be a link in the show notes, or, if people follow the email through to the website, we'll make sure that all of the links are there. And then, if you're up for it, it'd be great to reconnect in or get you back on the show in a few months and then see how it's landing, what, uh, what feedback people are giving, and then, from your own perspective as well, the different ways that you're now using it once it's out there and and in the world. \n\nTrisha: Yeah, no, I would love that. That's great, thank you. Thanks for having me again perfect no real pleasure. \n\nStuart: It's a. One of the highlights of the week is getting to share people's stories with everyone else, because again, I mean subconsciously, I hope it kind of reminds someone. Oh yeah, I've been meaning to this for a while. I should. Today's the day that I should get around to it. But also just the opening up people's minds to this idea of amplifying your message, of sharing your message out there. \n\nA book or another piece of content doesn't have to be absolutely unique. It doesn't have to be war and peace. People are people, are desperate for making those connections with the people that they can learn to know, like and trust, and if they can find trusted advisors or or people in certain spaces. You can be in the medical property side of things. Someone else is going to be in the veterinarian side. Someone else is going to be in the medical property side of things. Someone else is going to be in the veterinarian side. Someone else is going to be in the accounting side. Someone else can be in the book marketing side. So, yeah, just put it. Put it out there and it's. It doesn't have to be difficult. \n\nTrisha: Well, and I think you know you never know until you try. So you know, I think, what happens. You know you're, you're this professional, and you're going, going and going. Then all of a sudden people are starting to say, wow, you really know a lot of stuff, you're like I guess I do, and people can read it or send it before a meeting. You know, get some of those initial questions out, just so that you know when they come they'll have even more informed questions that you know really we can sink our teeth into. And, you know, get a dive a little bit deeper than staying at the surface. \n\nSo yeah, and you, you know, you don't know until you try. And a book like this, I think it's like 60 pages. You know, I think you can get really disciplined and and, and you know, write a little bit every week and you get it done before you know it yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that Mike Tyson saying everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face. \n\nStuart: The flip side of that is, uh is, put things out there in the world, because you never know what's gonna resonate and and take off. So, absolutely, um, thanks for your time. This has really been a pleasure. Everyone listening, uh, check out the show notes for links through to trisha's website and, uh, to get a copy of the book if this resonates with you. Um, this has been really great. Thanks again, and then we'll circle back in a couple of months and check in and see how things are going wonderful. Thank you, thanks, thanks everyone. We will catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Trisha Talbot of Doc Properties to explore the synergies of healthcare and property investment and how she's using her book 'Essential' to start a conversation with the investors she can best serve.
\n\nWith over two decades of experience, Tricia shares the field's potential for both returns and social impact through facilities that elevate care optimized by telemedicine trends, and we cover why the asset class attracts stakeholders seeking stability and community benefit.
\n\nTrisha's book is an invaluable resource to the investors she works with, outlining the benefits of these opportunities, such as long-term leases and triple net arrangements.
\n\nIt's a great example of understanding your clients' motivations and creating a book that provides value to start the relationship.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/164
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Trisha Talbot Contact Information:
\nWebsite:Doc Properties
\nEmail: ttalbot@docproperties.com
\nLinkedIn:LinkedIn Profile
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nAnd these are the mechanisms, the financial mechanisms of why it can be so successful. And the long term leases are are the primary. Um, reason why this asset class is so successful
\n\nStuart: eHy everyone, welcome back to another episode of the book more show. It's stewart bell here, and today I'm joined by Trisha talbot. Trisha, how you doing? I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for having me. pleasure, I'm excited to share this journey with people.
\n\nAs we get a chance to share author stories with people, I think it does a couple of hopefully it does a couple of services for people. One, it kind of reminds them that, hey, this is something that they should do as well. But two, it really kind of highlights the different paths and approaches that people bring to the project. We always kind of we've all got the same outcome of trying to start conversations with people and we're using books as that mechanism. But how we each get to that point, or or the the steps we take through the process, it's, but how we each get to that point or the steps we take through the process, it's unique for each individual person. So I'm excited to share your journey. So why don't we start at the beginning and give people a bit of background about who you are and the organization?
\n\nTrisha: Sure, my name is Trisha Talbot and my company is Doc Properties. It's a healthcare real estate investment and advisory firm. So I'm coming out of the brokerage side of the business. I'm having about 20 years of experience doing every type of transaction, but specifically well, I'd say 90% in healthcare properties, and I really like the asset class for a few reasons.
\n\nOne, because I feel like the buildings and the facilities serve a great purpose. You know people, even though telemedicine has started to develop, it's not going to replace inpatient visits. You know there's, I think, remote monitoring and stuff like that are going to enhance and enhance health care services. But you, any critical care, any chronic care and any examinations or procedures always have to be done inside a facility, and so those facilities serve a need and a purpose that I think is good for society. So that sort of drives me to want to stay in the asset class. And then you know real estate. There has to be investors in order to have those facilities, and so I think it's a great investment for people and for people that are looking to have impact investing or purposeful investing in something that is going to impact others. I think it's a great way to not only have a mechanism to grow your capital, but also a mechanism to impact people in a real way people in a real way.
\n\nStuart: It's interesting, isn't it? Because you think about telemedicine and the all the heat and light that's around moving things to remote. But the opportunity that it opens up is these facilities now are going to be dealing with a smaller volume of people. They don't have to serve quite such a broad purpose. They can really niche down to provide the, the specific care for the type of person that's coming in, without having to worry about catering to all those people who are covered by by telemedicine and that first stage kind of triaging. So it makes it a real um, the use case or the usefulness or the, the job of work. The purpose of those facilities can become much more targeted because they don't have to be so broad, and that seems like it's an opportunity both for better customer experiences but also for investors to really dial in and anchor into that the value that those particular types of buildings are providing.
\n\nTrisha: Yeah, I mean it benefits the whole healthcare ecosystem in a very big way. So not only what you're talking about, but people in like rural communities, you know, to have an initial triage over Zoom or whatever the platform is, and maybe some follow ups, or you know if it's, if they have one conversation and there needs to be other conversations with some specialists to really try to dive down so that when they do have to drive to an hour, hour and a half to a facility, they more or less know exactly what they're going in for, instead of having to go, you know, four or five times for some tests that may or may not be needed. So, or, and and I mean healthcare the industry itself is just plagued with, you know, being astronomically more expensive. Insurance companies are pushing back, um, you know physicians are are realizing um less on the reimbursement side, but you know that's not keeping up with inflation and so all of their other costs are going up.
\n\nAnd you know patients themselves now that they're burdening a lot of the costs of healthcare system, they really want it to be specific and precise.
\n\nAnd you know it's also good for the medical community because there's a lot of things that can get taken care of before you get to like a really high end specialist that you know doesn't see patients, that are and I say that's just, you know not a waste of their time, but that shouldn't be seeing them, that they should be seeing somebody else. And so all of these medical care clinicians, you know they can really operate at the top of their license and specific to what they're doing and that makes them better at what they do as well. So I think it's a small part of a bigger ecosystem in there and obviously this is, you know, the real estate, is this fixed asset, but if you think about the ecosystem that it serves, you know, I think these facilities can be really specialized, like to your point, and when people come in, they come in, they get exactly what they need, they have the right practitioners in there to serve them and, you know, and it saves everybody cost and time, which is, you know, valuable.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, your clients in this relationship? Are they on the real estate side they're the either the investors or the property owners or are they the practices and the practice managers who are kind of kidding out and looking for the right facilities? Are you dealing on both sides? Yeah, so I work with both.
\n\nTrisha: So I work with. So the co-investors that I work with, they, they I do have a lot that are physicians. They tend to have a high net worth and they, you know, like to to have a mechanism to continue to grow their capital, and this is an easy asset for them to understand. They do, do you know? They invest in a variety of things, but, um, this is something that they can sort of sink their teeth in and really understand, so I think it's easy for them. Um, but I do have just investors that are interested in in real estate investing, and this is one asset class that they invest in it's interesting.
\n\nStuart: We often talk about niching down and addressing that single target market as if you're talking to the one perfect client. But it's really a. It's a reminder that the world is full of huge niches that are very specific enough and as people are thinking about writing a book for their business and there's always this fear that I don't want to miss out on people by being too specific but the idea of a real estate investment area that's specifically looking at medical properties, as an outsider you'd think that that was very specific and and unique. But your experience and the clients you work with, this is a huge business that, just within this particular discipline, is more than big enough to support a business in its own right. So this idea of dialing down and being specific it allows you to talk the language, speak to the people at a level that they're comfortable and convenient with. Was that the case from the start? Did the business start out specifically with medical properties or did you dial that niche in over time?
\n\nTrisha: you know I've always I mean I worked some office, but mostly, um, I found the medical office more interesting. I felt, um, I was helping the clients better. You know they they're they're these busy practicing physicians and they want somebody to advocate for them. They need to understand the decisions and the financial impact. They have to have space. That, you know needs to be in a way that they can. You know that's a work that also has the not only like the basic functionality but, you know, allows for conversations and solving all those problems made my day more interesting than you know just traditional office users that need. You know a couple of private offices that are in a room, in a conference room, in a bullpen area. So you know it's just a personal preference.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and when you find that niche and it resonates and you kind of naturally tend towards that group of people, it's almost self-selecting in a way. Um, yeah, the investors that you're working with, um their motivations, um, there's the return on investment, which everyone, I guess, kind of thinks of as the initial thing that they're interested in. But as you've worked with them over time, that kind of superficial or surface level interest, does that go deeper into? You talked about some of the um the psychological uh, not psychological, the uh preference benefits of wanting to work in this industry because of its stability, and then the, the giving or the doing good element of working in this industry. The investors that you're working with, has there been that level of more deeper connection or their motivations, above and beyond just the? This is a good asset class to be in.
\n\nTrisha: So that's probably more my motivation and why I keep doing it, but obviously the numbers always have to make sense for you know, you're not going to get people to invest, you know, just on an idea and a hope, and nobody should.
\n\nBut that's where. So that's kind of the. The reason why I put this book together is because you know that's that's why I do it and you know that's my why. But you know and obviously at the end of the day that translates into finding good investments that you know it's a win win for everybody. But the book I I wrote that you know it's a win-win for everybody.
\n\nBut the book I wrote because you know it's not going to win any Nobel Prizes, but it's a basic introductory to what is a medical office asset, why is it so valuable? And people that and it can talk to both parties. So when clinicians sometimes want to occupy or invest in a building, when they're an owner user, you know, over the course of my career I've had, you know, very sophisticated clinicians that are very well versed in it and then some that come to the table just saying, hey, you know what, I'm a physician and I'm a really good practice and I should get like the lowest lease rate and I only want to do like three years and oh yeah, I want the landlord to build out the entire space, which is like half a million dollars. And you know I don't want to put any skin in the game and you know there's a reason why that can't happen. I mean a landlord, landlord just has to say no. I mean there's no way that that makes sense.
\n\nAnd because most of them have, you know, debt and then also other investment partners you know, that that doesn't work and so, you know, I wrote the book to sort of to provide it from an investment angle of this is how the asset class like. This is kind of an overall description of the asset class. This is why it's important and these are the mechanisms the financial mechanisms of why it can be so successful. And the long-term leases are, the landlord can fund a significant amount of tenant improvements because of the lease terms and the lease rates are a little bit higher than traditional office. I mean, they're not as high, I would say, as sometimes retail, but they are a little bit higher to account for that and they're mostly triple net. So those operating expenses get passed on to the tenant triple net. So those operating expenses get passed on to the tenant. And that's better for both parties.
\n\nBecause in medical, you know, there's different practices that use different levels of electricity and it's not necessarily fair, if one is a super high user, for the other tenants to pay for that. And then also each practice seems to, in my experience, have their own particular preferences for cleanliness, and so then you know, trip trip also allows them to hire their own janitorial company. So there's a lot of reasons that that's a good thing. But for investors, you know, in the book I kind of explain why these mechanisms are the way they are and how it, you know, adds to the value of a medical office building asset. And I do it in a high enough level where, you know it just sort of gives them an overview. It's a really quick read and I intended for it to be that way.
\n\nI'm in the process of finishing recording it, so to be on audio as well, and I think at some point you know on video and I think at some point you know on video.
\n\nBut you know I wanted to be able to say you know, here's the mechanisms of how to look for a good medical office asset, like what are the mechanics of it. So when then you know, down the road, you know I hope that it encourages people to give me a call and, you know, be interested in hopefully investing in properties that I find, and then it will be easier for them to understand when I'm explaining why the asset is valuable. You know what financial aspects of it make it make sense for a good investment. And then hopefully, you know, this book will give them a little bit of enough education where you know they can understand what they're investing in, which is the goal. I mean, you don't want to invest in something you don't understand and you shouldn't, so. This, I think, at least gives them enough information, where then you know the additional questions that they have. It will help them finish their due diligence it's such a great point.
\n\nStuart: I was just on a call with someone before we. We've recorded today and making the the point, or or sowing the seed of the idea that the book, the product of the book, that outcome of the the job of work, is to start that conversation. It's not a college textbook. You're not trying to educate people in the complete how to do it yourself, because for most of us that's not practical. I mean, the likelihood of someone taking all of the steps themselves is pretty much zero. So the opportunity of the book is to either A introduce a new idea to someone, someone who is familiar with investing but hasn't thought about medical as a specific niche, or, if they have, then highlight two or three of the key, um, the key elements of it that can make it a successful, a more successful project than another. But the outcome is always a conversation with someone. Now, as you say, hopefully that someone is you, and the book is a great way of identifying who those people might be in order to keep the conversation going right. But the outcome, the product, the job of work is that conversation and to write something that is a accessible introduction, that gives people enough value and creates that sense of reciprocity or relationship building that translates into a phone call. That's the real difference maker.
\n\nAnd I think the point that you said at the end is also a key one that often gets overlooked. It's this idea that when people do, then eventually reach out and you have that call. The conversation that you're having with them is out and you have that call. The conversation that you're having with them is informed by the information that they've already read and consumed. So at least you know they've got a. Even if they just look at the table of contents, there's still some key signposts in there. At least they've got some level of understanding. And then if you're saying things, or as you're saying things, that echo the words that they read in the book kind of subconsciously, that's the it's not the first time they're hearing it you're reinforcing something that they already believe. So it really does. This idea of an introductory start to the conversation, I think, is the best way of thinking about books absolutely.
\n\nTrisha: And, um, you know, uh, for it's also, you know, for investors to that are maybe familiar with, with, you know, investing in real estate but haven't really ventured into medical office. And you know, for both target markets of mine. I've just gotten the question so many times like so what is so special about medical office, why is that important and what makes it so different? And it's you know, obviously I can have two sentences, but you know, doesn't really it wouldn't, so my two sentences aren't going to make somebody write a check. So this, you know, I think this dives into it a little bit more. And, you know, for those that are familiar with real estate investing, for those that are familiar with real estate investing or those that are familiar with the health care industry, you know it sort of brings both of them together to understand why this is an important asset class. And both from you know, I start with describing how it relates to the health care industry, but then also, and then, but it does have to have.
\n\nStuart: So you know, it is a commercial real estate property, so it has to have certain financial fundamentals in order to and highlighting those elements for people, particularly in this um, in this arena, where people, even if they don't have a very good understanding, a lot of people have got a good reckon or think they know what their area is. So it's not, you're not introducing a brand new idea, it's the nuance of this as a subset of all of the properties you could choose. Here are some really unique elements to this as an asset class separate from the other commercial elements. So I think it's. It makes it then easy to, or easier to highlight a couple of those key takeaways and those key um difference makers in in property selection or investment selection. You can really identify a couple of things that are building on real estate investing as a general topic.
\n\nSo, it does allow you to move that conversation a little bit faster towards positioning you as the expert, because you've got this niche understanding and, like we said at the start, putting it in a way that is accessible and friendly. And the introductory level, because no one wants to read anything where they feel stupid or that no, yeah, it's not an investment book and it wouldn't.
\n\nTrisha: it would be unfair to you know, even kind of describe, like I mean I could describe other investments that have been successful, but I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to.
\n\nI didn't want it to be um, numbers heavy and super jargon heavy, because then people start to tune out and they close it, they don't want to pick it up and so and I think people like to see numbers easy, like on one sheet of paper, and be able to understand it. And you know, trying to put it in a book over various chapters where somebody feels like they have to sit down and take notes or open up a spreadsheet to understand what you're saying Wasn't wasn't the point. And every single property is different. I mean there's no property that's the same. You know two properties can't occupy the same space, just in, you know, by physics. So you know there's, there's absolutely no, no property investment that would be the same. So it would be unfair to really sort of say, okay, you can talk about other successful ones, but I really wanted to stay away from that in this book anyway.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, because, again, the job of work is to encourage people to reach out and call, because that's the real, that's going to make a difference for them having a tailored conversation to their requirements and their area and their specifications, and the deals that are available today and not the deals that were available yesterday.
\n\nYeah, you talked at the start about the different formats for the book. So trying to make it as accessible as possible in terms of an audio version and video versions. So trying to make it as accessible as possible in terms of an audio version and video versions, this idea of the book being the jumping off point of the conversation. But then there's it's people are either ready today or not today, and that not today might be tomorrow or it might be in 10 years time. So this idea of keeping people engaged have you, is there, anything set up in place at the moment? Or have you thought about that in terms of okay, once someone's requested a copy of the book, I know that not everyone's going to call me straight away, so what information do I have? What reinforcing or amplifying elements are there that I can share with people over the long run that keeps them engaged?
\n\nTrisha: Yeah, so, um, you know, the the book is free to download the the hard, the electronic copy, and so I'll give my email at the end at the landing pages. Um, just just gotten finished so I can email them the landing page, but it asks them for, um, their email and phone number, and then it they'll get another. You know, they'll be brought through to the download and so once I get their email and phone number, I'm going to call them, you know, and just introduce myself, thank them for being interested in my book and just offering myself to answer any questions once they finish the book. So to make that connection. And then I have a monthly newsletter that I send out. I send out one for clinician owners and one for just investors. They're welcome to sign up for both, but the information is a little bit tailored, so I send that out and then you know I periodically I'll send out, like, some educational marketing materials.
\n\nI try not to spam people's email. I know that the I think the marketing professionals would say that I have to send something out every week and maybe I should. But I just feel like my clients are very busy and when they get 200 emails in their email they just start randomly deleting and it doesn't, you know, they don't read it. So I think monthly has seemed to work. Um, my unsubscribes have gone way down and I think that's because my emails are are, you know, they're not spamming their, their system, and and they're pretty informative and easy to read, like the newsletters sometimes that I get. That it's almost like you have to sit down and kind of like, read a book again.
\n\nI'm trying to think that nobody has time these days. That didn't want to do that. So I keep mine very, you know, light on words, big on pictures and lots of places that they can click to, depending on what they're interested in. So I keep them engaged that way. And you know, as I have properties to invest in, if they're part of my community, then depending on what they're interested in, because then I ask in if they're part of my community, then and depending on what, what they're interested in, because then I ask them if they are interested in investments and they have another form to fill out to tell me a little bit more about what specific type and price range, and so I try to be very specific and targeted in my marketing the the right message at the right time.
\n\nStuart: It's such a difficult balance, as you say. A lot of people recommend just keep going. I think it's Dan Kennedy, like the Dan Kennedy approach. It's something like the five-star prospects on the list of five-star prospects regardless and anyone who isn't a five-star prospect they're a waste of time anyway. So you might as well just keep hammering and hammering and people will self-select. But that's a very aggressive approach and particularly with the long burn, the long time frame of this type of investment. It's not a checkout purchase where you just hit a button and you can buy whenever. This is built on relationships and trying to find the right deal. It could be a multi-year approach.
\n\nTrisha: So it's a multi-year approach and it involves a ton of trust and you know, once they trust you and you know they've invested with you one time and it's successful, um, they, they trust you again. And so I don't keep that lightly and I don't need a thousand investors. Um, right, I, I need investors that believe in the product type that you know, trust me enough. I mean, their money is retirement money or it's savings, or it's generational wealth that they're trying to preserve, their, their capital. So you know they're all, they're all investing for, I think, a personal reason at least. At least you know the people that I've been talking to, um, and so you know, I, I take, I take the relationships. I'd rather have hundreds of intentional relationships than thousands of unintentional relationships.
\n\nStuart: I guess that would be a good thing I think particularly the nature of the clients you're working with. It's a high ticket item that, as you say, the numbers have to work. But above working with it's a high ticket item, as you say, the numbers have to work. But above and beyond that, it's the trust and the relationship that the person's got that that you're the right person to manage and put together the deal.
\n\nTrisha: Not, it's unlikely that it's going to happen without having a phone call or a conversation. It's not just wiring some money. Someone sends me a check and I don't know who they are. That would be weird. So I would be finding out who they are pretty quick Because you know, both peace of mind and KYC requirements. That's my due diligence. I do need to know who you are too, right yeah.
\n\nStuart: Likewise, if a suitcase of money turns up, you can ask some questions there yeah, the suitcase of unmarked bills shows up um yeah, my brother I've mentioned it before on the show my brother's a yacht broker, um, so obviously they're dealing with high-end clients and at the one end of the spectrum there's kind of lucky losing tire kickers and at the other end of the spectrum there's kind of the the long, long-term relationships to to get to a sale. But, uh, I often think that, um, I often think that he has to do a certain amount of due diligence as well, both from the the lucky side of it and not spending too much time on people who are just really not, um, not in the right place, but then from the other side as well. This is quite a lot of money and and you must see the same where people's assets come from it can get quite complicated. Some. It's like moving all things and combining them together. There's a certain amount of due diligence. Just make sure that you don't fall the wrong side of some later investigation.
\n\nTrisha: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of fraud and so you have to be conscious of that. I don't, I don't need that in my life and you know they're doing. You know now you're a small business, you know you have to report who you are, and the beneficial owners, and you know their wire fraud is on the rise.
\n\nStuart: And then there's all of these anti-terrorist clauses and things like that, and so, yeah, you gotta, you gotta follow the money and make sure it's coming from the right place yeah, again, another reason why starting the conversation with the book that leads to the people who are interested in the subject, and then following through with the material that you're putting out. It's all relationship building over the long term. So those names on the list that you become familiar with and the emails over time as that builds into a relationship that ends in a transaction, it all helps to give that certainty that you aren't dealing with a real person with a real situation at the other end. Yeah, um, the ideal clients. We were talking briefly about the people who you work with, and some of them are investors and some of them are on the medical side. The ideal person is what am I trying to say, the ideal person within that group? Do they have certain characteristics? Is this likely to be their first deal, or are they seasoned investors? Or are they, more often than not, owner operators?
\n\nTrisha: Or talk to me a little bit about who the ideal person is Well, they need to be accredited investors, so they have typically hit a. If they are employed, they're high net earners. So if not, then they are just high net worth individuals. But so they have to. They, if they are, you know, employed, they're usually, I mean, I think they're mid to late careerists. I mean, I think they're mid to late careerists, but I don't think any. I think early careerists would probably invest in properties that their practice owns as a way. You know, I think that's the way they would do it.
\n\nBut they're high net worth individuals of some sort to be accredited investors is the target.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, interesting. Actually, I never really thought that because commercial residential real estate you don't really think about people having to be accredited. So that extra caveat, understanding things like that though, as I'm thinking about people listening to the show there's some people who fall into that category and this might be a market for them them they haven't necessarily had access to before because they haven't known a person. But then for other people who don't meet that criteria just the assessment that you've gone through and the understanding of who the clients are. So writing at a level, writing, writing the book and then reaching out to audiences at the level who are accredited, this idea of beneficial constraints this now in the scope of what you're doing. So understanding who it's not for is almost as important as understanding who it is for, because it just helps in the creation process, right?
\n\nI imagine there's a. There's a line between. It's easy to find yourself going off on a slight tangent and talking to groups of people who aren't the target audience. In your case it might be non-accredited, but that would be an easy line to see. But even where the line's a little bit um, not as explicit as that, it's easy to talk off on a on a tangent. So having this idea of beneficial constraints where you really know okay, I'm talking to this person in this scenario, probably coming from this position it just makes the whole creation process a lot easier. Did you notice that, as you were bringing it together, um, what was included and what wasn't included was was clear in your mind?
\n\nTrisha: yeah. So I didn't particularly address that, the high net worth accredited investor in this particular in the the book, and it doesn't. I mean if you're interested in the asset class, I mean there's different ways to become an accredited investor. You know you can create LLCs and you can pull money and you know there's, so there's there's different ways to get there if you're really driven to do it. But you know, I remember when I was, you know, early in my career and I sat down with a financial advisor and you know you're like looking at what you're going to do for retirement and you're like, okay, well, obviously, stocks and bonds over the long term, yes, yes, yes. But I said what is? You know, what is investments in a three to five year investment horizon that you can make money at beats the stock market? And he was like, well, that's the million dollar question that everybody asks. So you know, everyone has different buckets or should have different buckets of money and, um, you know, three to five years stock market.
\n\nYou know, for people that like stocks, they like stocks. I like I understand real estate, I mean I understand, um, stocks, but I find it more interesting to understand a. I understand real estate, I mean I understand stocks but I find it more interesting to understand a piece of real estate from the right role and personal preference. And I enjoy the stock and bond market but that's a very long-term one and you know, while I'm you know I got I got a long runway left and I really like getting in there and understanding these, turning properties around and, you know, selling them for more than you buy them for and really adding a lot of value. So with that, you know, I've always it's always been like well, what do you invest in for a three to five year time horizon? And it really goes to.
\n\nYou know you have to find private investments, but that can be also risky. I mean I've heard horror stories of people. You know you have to find private investments but that can be also risky. I mean I've heard horror stories of people you know investing with others that you know they they get are either like hit with so many fees that you know the investor doesn't make any money and then they never do it again.
\n\nSo the private market it's I think it has a ton of wonderful opportunities, but you have I mean it's like you have to look at a thousand deals to find like maybe five that work. It's not just the investment part, it is also the person behind it. So a couple of things is one, you know, I wanted to introduce myself a little bit but then also introduce the asset class. And for people that aren't credit investors yet, you know they can very well be in any given you know, maybe next year. So it's more to educate people about the investing in the asset class so that they can be educated and if it's not now, it can be later. So it didn't really in the book, it's not just, you know, it doesn't really talk about the type of investor, it's really more about why is this asset class valuable?
\n\nStuart: Right, and that's such a great point as well, actually, because this idea of not sifting and sorting there's a low cost of acquisition of people who are interested in the book and therefore you're able to get names and email addresses. So there's no need to try and filter at this stage because, just as you said, the person might not be, it might not be their time today, either because they're busy doing other things or they're not yet accredited. But six months, 12 months, three years down the track, that relationship has been built from today. So no need to sift and sort.
\n\nTrisha: There's no additional cost of having those people on the list's just all upside to build a relationship yeah, and then if they get on my email list and they, you know, do read my emails they'll get to know me a little bit more. Um, you know, in all of my emails I I took the advice of somebody to add a little bit of a personal snippet. I've never really done that before and, um, I'm like who cares about my personal life? But people, I think, when they're investing with you, they kind of want to know who you are and what your values are. So it's just like one paragraph and like a photo of some recent activity of some sort.
\n\nBut you know, so if they get my emails, they will get to know me a little bit, and I think that's important because I think you really want to put your money, you want to spend your money based on your values. You know, I think um for a lot of people, and so, if you so again, like I said, the financial asset that you're investing in is just one part of the puzzle. It's also who are you investing with? Um, and it's as important as am I going to get my money back, which is the million dollar question, um, you know, and am I going to make money on that? So, so all of that goes hand in hand it's interesting.
\n\nStuart: Um, in the last couple of weeks I've in. It's one of those things where you kind of uh, tune into something and then you start seeing everywhere, but the personal elements I, my natural position is the same who cares? Just crack on, let's do the work. But it's definite that people build a rapport and when I think about the podcasts I listen to or the YouTube channels or the books I read or the people that you follow, there is a certain sense of relationship there, even if it's very one-sided, right, even though I, when I talk about it, I undervalue those things, I think in my own experience I do value them and it's and it's probably we obviously encourage people to put stories and anecdotes and examples in the books to illustrate them, as mentioned before, but including some of the personal stuff.
\n\nI wonder, actually, on the landing page you were talking about going from the landing page to the thank you page, including a video on that page with a hey, thanks for downloading a copy of the book. It's one of the key points I really wanted to get across is X, y and Z, but it puts your face there and puts a real person to it. That might be an interesting thing to add there.
\n\nTrisha:
\nYeah, well, there's a reason why People Magazine is incredibly successful yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stuart: Um, cam always goes fast on these podcasts, I think I know everyone by saying it goes so quick. Um, I want to make sure that people can get um find out more about what you and what you do. I know the landing page isn't up just as we're recording, but where's a good place to point people so they can find out more?
\n\nTrisha: yeah, it'll be up in just a few days and unfortunately it's like a perfect storm because my website's being redone and like the landing page and everything. So the easiest way to email me, trisha ttalbot@docproperties.comI'm very fast on email so I'll send you the landing page right away, as soon as I get it I'm not instant, but you know I would say within 24 hours or so I would send it to you. So just email me. I think that's the simplest. ttalbot@docproperties.com. My website is docpropertiescom and it will be. It's up. There is one up, but there'll be a new one up fairly soon and from there there'll be a link directly to the book from the webpage.
\n\nStuart: Well, I'm not sure that we've put so I think we're probably we're recording on a Wednesday, I think, so we'll put this up the following Friday, so by that point some things might have changed. But either way, recommend that people go across and take a look at what you're doing. I'll put links to all of these in the show notes so, as people are listening on podcast players, there'll be a link in the show notes, or, if people follow the email through to the website, we'll make sure that all of the links are there. And then, if you're up for it, it'd be great to reconnect in or get you back on the show in a few months and then see how it's landing, what, uh, what feedback people are giving, and then, from your own perspective as well, the different ways that you're now using it once it's out there and and in the world.
\n\nTrisha: Yeah, no, I would love that. That's great, thank you. Thanks for having me again perfect no real pleasure.
\n\nStuart: It's a. One of the highlights of the week is getting to share people's stories with everyone else, because again, I mean subconsciously, I hope it kind of reminds someone. Oh yeah, I've been meaning to this for a while. I should. Today's the day that I should get around to it. But also just the opening up people's minds to this idea of amplifying your message, of sharing your message out there.
\n\nA book or another piece of content doesn't have to be absolutely unique. It doesn't have to be war and peace. People are people, are desperate for making those connections with the people that they can learn to know, like and trust, and if they can find trusted advisors or or people in certain spaces. You can be in the medical property side of things. Someone else is going to be in the veterinarian side. Someone else is going to be in the medical property side of things. Someone else is going to be in the veterinarian side. Someone else is going to be in the accounting side. Someone else can be in the book marketing side. So, yeah, just put it. Put it out there and it's. It doesn't have to be difficult.
\n\nTrisha: Well, and I think you know you never know until you try. So you know, I think, what happens. You know you're, you're this professional, and you're going, going and going. Then all of a sudden people are starting to say, wow, you really know a lot of stuff, you're like I guess I do, and people can read it or send it before a meeting. You know, get some of those initial questions out, just so that you know when they come they'll have even more informed questions that you know really we can sink our teeth into. And, you know, get a dive a little bit deeper than staying at the surface.
\n\nSo yeah, and you, you know, you don't know until you try. And a book like this, I think it's like 60 pages. You know, I think you can get really disciplined and and, and you know, write a little bit every week and you get it done before you know it yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that Mike Tyson saying everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face.
\n\nStuart: The flip side of that is, uh is, put things out there in the world, because you never know what's gonna resonate and and take off. So, absolutely, um, thanks for your time. This has really been a pleasure. Everyone listening, uh, check out the show notes for links through to trisha's website and, uh, to get a copy of the book if this resonates with you. Um, this has been really great. Thanks again, and then we'll circle back in a couple of months and check in and see how things are going wonderful. Thank you, thanks, thanks everyone. We will catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, I sit down with Trisha Talbot of Doc Properties to explore the synergies of healthcare and property investment. With over two decades experience, Trisha illuminates the field's potential for both returns and social impact through facilities that elevate care, optimized by telemedicine trends. \r\n\r\nIn the show, we cover why the asset class attracts stakeholders seeking stability and community benefit. Tricia's book serves as an invaluable resource, outlining these properties' distinguishing characteristics like long-term leases and triple net arrangements.\r\n\r\nFor more on medical offices' potential, I refer listeners to Trisha's insightful book and Doc Properties for seasoned guidance into this impactful niche.\r\n","date_published":"2024-04-21T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/d56d18f7-3d68-408e-be78-38498f534d17.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27443308,"duration_in_seconds":2276}]},{"id":"e150a06e-b5e1-4220-8a6a-695b74cd9ffd","title":"Ep163: Clarity and Credibility with Mitchell Levy","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/163","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, I dive into the art of messaging with Global Credibility Expert Mitchell Levy. \n\nMitchell and I were introduced earlier this year, and in talking to him, I really connected his work with our approach to helping business owners start conversations with clients and customers.\n\nIn the show, we dissect the struggles professionals face in articulating their value and unique position in the marketplace and the power clarity and credibility have in personal and business branding. A challenge that could become harder in an AI-powered world, but where an abundance mindset means AI becomes a huge advantage in leveraging leadership.\n\nWe discuss the strategic use of books as credibility tools and the importance of an authentic presence, and I share my journey of dialing in the message and determining who we can best help. \n\nFinally, we highlight Mitchell's upcoming, free CoachingFest event, which will bring together 14 leading speakers to help professionals grow their influence and define their message. \n\nThough it's called CoachingFest, this event is relevant to everyone listening, not just coaches, as we're all here to refine our message and get more clients. It's well worth checking out the link above. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\nMitchell shares his insights on the importance of clarity and credibility in personal and business branding, noting that 98% of professionals struggle to articulate their value proposition succinctly.\nWe focus on the shift from a scarcity to an abundance mindset, discussing how AI is democratizing thought leadership and the importance of experience and capability in this new landscape.\nThe concept of Customer Point of Possibilities (CPOP) is introduced, which helps articulate one's core message succinctly, highlighting the discovery that clarity precedes credibility.\nMy personal journey toward identifying my core customer pain point (CPOP) led to narrowing my target audience, which I discuss in relation to executive coaching and business development.\nWe explore the synergy between different coaching services and partnerships, reflecting on the psychological barriers to specializing and the success that comes with a narrowed focus.\nThe necessity of articulating a clear message or CPOP within eight to ten words is emphasized, especially for authors and marketers looking to engage their target audience effectively.\nI introduce the concept of a micro-commitment—a low-risk offer to captivate potential clients—and propose clarity sessions as a strategic starting point before engaging in book creation or marketing efforts.\nWe guide listeners through the process of becoming a community superhero, leveraging books as conversation starters and knowing one's CPOP to attract the right audience and establish credibility.\nThe upcoming Coaching Fest is highlighted as a valuable opportunity for growth and learning from leading industry voices, aimed at helping listeners enjoy playing in their community's playground every day.\nThe strategic timing for book opportunities is explored, stressing the importance of clarity in messaging before writing a book or enhancing one's online presence to enhance credibility and leverage knowledge.\n\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/163\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\nMitchell Levy:Mitchell's Website\nCoachingFest:Registration Link\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nMitchell: So, given the CPOP I plan, it made a lot of sense to pull some of the best coaching voices in the industry to be able to have a two-day summit. So it's a free event. It's called coachingfestcom. Stuart, put in your link in the notes right, and the opportunity here is some of the best voices who are talking about well, do what you love and the money will follow. Craft what you do, that you love doing. How do you provide a service in such a way and what do you charge for it? \n\nStuart: Hey everybody, Welcome to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Mitchell Levy. Mitchell, how are you doing? \n\nMitchell: Stuart, I'm doing great, thank you, thank you. \n\nStuart: Me too. Me too, I'm looking forward to this. The last couple of shows that I've done have been with people who I haven't had quite such a relationship with in the past. So you and I have met relatively recently, but we've had a lot of time to spend together. So this is I'm coming into this knowing a little bit more than I've done, kind of exploring the conversations with other people. So I'm excited to be able to share this with the audience. Why don't we start with a little bit of background on you and what you do Share with everyone listening some of the things that you were sharing with me? \n\nMitchell: Let me so I'm. The title that I'm using for myself is Global Credibility Expert, and I birthed that title by interviewing 500 thought leaders between 2019 and 2020. So it was my Napoleon Hill journey and prior to that way, back in the dot-com days, I was working at some microsystems. I left there. Since there, I've been in Silicon Valley for 30 years. I've started 20-ish companies, including running multiple conferences. I've got four book publishing companies, so I don't hit the thousand mark, but we've hit 750. I focus on I'm part of Marshall Goldsmith's 100 coaches, so I actually am a executive coach and have a part of my business for that. And where I'm really excited now what I've been focusing on is I've sort of unraveled what does it really mean to be credible as a human, as a business person, and with that credibility, I've actually gotten the clarity on what does that really mean, and it was sort of the short answer. It's the missing step, but the bigger picture happily married for 35 years Is that right? \n\nStuart: Oh, let's say yes. \n\nMitchell: And she wrote what yeah, happily married 35 years, have a son who's 25. And we were generally. I'm in Silicon Valley and life is good. \n\nStuart: That's the. I didn't realize there was a stone history. My background is IC on the project management side, so it's a little bit of a. I think we bonded a little bit in the way that we talked and described things, so maybe there's a slight underlying engineering connection that's coming through there as well. This we connected. \n\nReally, talking about the credibility piece, I think that was we were introduced on linkedin by a slightly random connection, but the credibility piece is what really resonated in what I'm doing personally in the business, but then for our clients as well and as we were talking more and going into it, your position, that credibility and the clarity that comes from that, being able to define it in a particular way and using that as a jumping off point for all other messaging that particularly resonated. And I think that's really why I wanted to do the podcast, because for the people who are on our list, that this will go out to the people that we've worked with, trying to amplify their message and get their message out there in the world in a kind of conversation starting way. It all comes back to that seed. So, with the people who you've worked with, that experience that you bring to the conversation, where are most people, in terms of both the clarity of their messaging and then the credibility elements that they bring into it. \n\nMitchell: You know, when I was doing the research and have found later, and so we're talking about over a thousand individuals and corporations. I'm going to give a number that's just absolutely preposterous 98% of everyone I've spoken with 98% do not have clarity on who they are and how they show up and can articulate that in less than 10 words. \n\nStuart: Right, it's such a. That was the piece and I struggle with it as well. Even being relatively, I mean the book project, we start by telling people that they need to dial in that single target audience. But even for the work that we do, and then, as I do more and more LinkedIn conversations, the introduction calls with people to be able to crystallize it in such a small way you find yourself tripping over the words or adding in extra elements that defining and refining the message down. Do people tend to start with a broad understanding and then it's just getting specific on it, or are they very scattered in? Well, I could do anything for anyone. \n\nMitchell: More than latter. We've been taught, so it's so funny. We've been taught something. I'm going to say many of the lessons that we've been taught are wrong. We were born knowing the answers right. So when you were born and the first time you go to a playground and other kids your age, you know that playground, that sandbox, is like the entire universe, and then another person that looks like you goes into that universe and you are instantly friends for life and you play forever, long, you get to play and then you probably never see that person again. And you play forever long, you get to play and then you probably never see that person again. \n\nRight Now, if you think about the metaphor of going into a playground because you have a common goal to go on the swing together or go on the seesaw together, whatever tools you're playing with what's interesting is we've been taught we'll stick with the playground metaphor. I've never done this one, so we'll see how it turns out that more is better, right, the bigger the playground, the more things we can do, the continuous enjoyment like more is better. So when you're serving an audience, yeah, no, I don't like the playground. I'll come back to the playground, but let's go back to human nature when we talk about who we are and how we show up. We've been told, well, I work with. And then we need to give 10 or 20 definitions of different audiences we work with, because the more things we do this is what we've been taught the more things we do, the better chance that we're gonna capture the intention of somebody and they're gonna go oh my God, I love you, let me use that service. The opposite is actually true. \n\nThe more narrow you could be in terms of how you present yourself, the more focused you could be on how you present yourself, the better the opportunity the person is going to say hey, you know what? I think I need this. Or I know there's somebody in my network that needs this and, by the way, can you do this other thing as well? Right, it's really now you have a choice, right? So there are people I work with who solely focus on men or solely focus on women. \n\nIt is clear that, as they're talking about who they are and they come across so strongly and so powerfully that the person of the opposite sex I know you say you only work with men, but would you work with me? Or I know you say you only work with women, but I'm a guy, I'm kind of feminine in my characteristics. Would you work with me? So the interesting part is the simplicity of us, and I'm going to go back now to the playground of articulating, a playground we play in. Because, by the way, stuart, if you don't love what you do, you need to play somewhere else. If you don't love your job, you need to find something else that you do love. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's a great analogy and I think even more so it's amplified where we are at this point in time in society and technology and the overwhelm of all the messages it's almost, and again the overwhelm of all the messages. It's almost, and again analogy is going to fall over. But it's almost like the autistic. My wife's a kindergarten teacher and they've got a connected organization that looks after special needs kids and the autistic kids in those programs are quite often overwhelmed by the stimulation, so they're out in nature, so that's not quite so stimulating. They're wearing ear defenders, so they're out in nature, so that's not quite so stimulating. They're wearing ear defenders so they're not kind of overly overstimulated. \n\nBut I think all of us to a certain degree are suffering from the same problem. There's so many messages coming in that as your eyes are filtering however many messages are out there unless you're seeing something that you recognize and resonating with something, that message just passes by. So to be able to talk in the language that people use, to use examples that resonate with them, to be consistently present in that way, it just gives money more indicators that they are likely to respond to rather than just having to filter out because there's so much noise out there. I think also it comes from a scarcity point of view. There's a in business I mean in life generally there's a feeling of scarcity. The country's too small, the business is too competitive, there's not enough food. \n\nThere's a scarcity narrative that lies underneath everything which is we need to take and claim this, otherwise someone's going to get it, as opposed to the abundance framework of there's we were talking about uh, there's always a problem when you're talking with someone who you know well, because your mind kind of jumps all over the place to different conversations that you had in the past. But we were talking about the ai space and the narrative. There is around a lot of the the media at least taking jobs, causing problems, that the restrictive or the removing elements, rather than the abundance of this will create a whole new industry. That's never been seen before. And the fact that going into something with a specificity but knowing that as long as you pick a target audience that is big enough, then that can be the jumping off point for everything else. It's a much more effective way of thinking about something. \n\nMitchell: I even got to the point where I wanted to interview 500 thought leaders on credibility is that I had recognized for a long time that book publishing was, and currently is, democratized. Anyone who wants to, it's very easy to create an asset called a book. Well, something happened interesting in 2023. In 2023, not just book publishing is democratized, but thought leadership is now democratized With AI. Anyone can be a thought leader in a space by just having the right prompts. It doesn't mean they have the experience and capabilities the simplicity of focusing on an audience, being able to articulate with that audience words that they can relate to so immediately that they're like wait a second, I need to hear more. Right, and so for me, the I, I first I made a mistake and then, if you're okay, we'll talk about your C, your about your CPOP stands for customer point of possibilities. This is the methodology, the approach that I use. That it's a mechanical approach and I'm going to say that mechanical approach has heart and with that heart, it allows somebody to articulate who they are and how they show up in less than 10 words. So we will share that. \n\nWhat happened when I was interviewing 500 thought leaders on credibility? What I kind of realized that or thought by the way, I was wrong that what I need to do is I need to actually sell credibility and to go into marketplace, and hence the title Global Credibility Expert still a great title, and that needed to come first. Global Credibility Expert still a great title, and that needed to come first. And it turns out that many people sell credibility, many people are pushing at that, and let's go back to that number I gave earlier in the show 98%. Even the people who are selling credibility. When you ask them about their clarity and you ask them whether or not they're delivering clarity to their clients, the real answer is no. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nMitchell: Right. So a massive aha for me was the recognition that clarity comes before credibility. \n\nStuart: Right from a kind of a hierarchy of human needs type perspective, that clarity. If you're trying to build credibility in something that you're not clear about, it automatically brings in variance and a lack of specificity and a breadth that can take you off target and going into a different playground. So that, thinking about that clarity first but then understanding that the credibility piece is immediately after it, I think together they really build to something that will help people engage more with the audience that they can help, because it's the line fishing approach rather than the trawling the seabed. It's the line fishing approach of knowing who those people are. It helps dial in all of the other activities and again, not to the exclusion of everything else, but there's only so many units of energy in the day. If you're going to do something and you've chosen the thing to do, then you can double down and really make it as effective and as efficient as possible. Yes, yes, do people have? Well, thank you, but I'm just replaying what I got from you the other day People have. \n\nSometimes, when we're talking about writing books with people, there's this idea that in part they're thinking about a book as a traditional book. So it's broad and covers a lot of things in some degree of detail. So there's a breadth perspective that people come with and we're often saying people, okay, it's depth more than breadth that you're interested in, particularly for this as a product. So, as far as the clarity piece goes and the job that we're trying to do is really to get that down to 10 words, so it really hits the mark. For people Is one of the biggest problems that they have this idea of dialing it in and being as specific as they need to be, and it's kind of philosophically the idea that they struggle with. Or is it more mechanical in the sense of they accept the idea but all of the language that we use and the way that they're taught is very difficult to be narrowing in the language. Is it more philosophical or mechanical? \n\nMitchell: I'm leaning towards philosophical as the. I'm leaning towards philosophical as the. There's a psychological thing. So let me talk about me and my CPOP for a second. We'll talk about you and your CPOP, right so, with who I am and what I do in my executive coaching business, I have seven slots allocated for executive coaching. The clients I work with are typically CEOs of companies that are running entities between 10 and a hundred million. Because I'm in Silicon Valley, that's a great fit for me. \n\nI about I think it was three weeks ago, four weeks ago I closed my eighth slot, so I'm not actually aggressively looking for any more, although you know that's when the right person comes by and says and I'm like for you, yes, of course, right. So so that said my, my CPOP for that is not the one that I'm primarily using, but my CPOP when I was primarily focused on executive coaching and publishing, focused on executive coaching and publishing my CPOP was four words. It was CEOs flying like eagles. So those four words are powerful and very cool. And what makes me different than any other executive coach? What makes me different than anyone else? Right, and although I think I know what it is, it's not always easy for other people in the marketplace. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nMitchell: So when I realized clarity comes first versus when I was really focused on the credibility piece, when I realized clarity comes first, I realized I needed an audience where I could absolutely show an ROI. And it was an audience I was already playing with because I'm part of the Marshall Goldsmith 100 coaches and I get to see how all these coaches operate like behind the scenes. And it popped in my mind. So there's an organization called ICF, the International Coaching Federation. They are the grand organization that gives certification to all these other coaching organizations that are certified authors, not authors. Sorry, are certifying authors, not authors? Sorry, certifying coaches. So the interesting part is they do a biannual survey and in that survey they had specifically said now around the world, they have studies I don't know the numbers in the UK, in the US, what they said is there are over 100,000 executive coaches with an average salary of $50,000. I couldn't get that number out of my head and when I started thinking about what should my CPOP be today, the word that came out of my mouth as the who I was going to serve is not the word that I ever expected to be uttering, because why would I narrow myself, to be just so narrow? The word is coaches. By the way, why would I be so narrow in terms of that? And the answer is well, it's easy to demonstrate an ROI. I'll focus on this vertical first and then move to another vertical, and so my current CPOP is eight words coaches who've created a job, not a business. And as you know, stuart, what we're teaching when we bring people through our clarity session is not only to have that CPOP, but to be able to do the tell me more. So let me spend a minute, or less than a minute. I'll do the tell me more. So what happens? And, by the way, if you're an author, particularly an author who has published a book from 90-minute books, almost by definition, you also have a part of your business. That's coaching. You're either directly a coach or partly your business. The product or service requires some sort of coaching. \n\nWhat has happened with coaches is you've been trained a methodology. What has happened with coaches is you've been trained a methodology. You've been trained a methodology to specifically transform a company or an individual and move them from A to B, but what you've not been trained is actually how to run a business as an entrepreneur, how to have a continuous set of conversations where you're building referral partners who refer you, how you're continually having your customers refer you referral partners who refer you, how you're continually having your customers refer you, how you basically have a calendar full of people who you're enjoying talking to and many of them turn into clients. We have a done with you program that does that with you. So that's probably about 40, 45 seconds. You got a good feeling of who I am and what I do, because the playground coaches, who've created a job, not a business, is very well articulated yeah when you oh, and by the way, to answer your direct question, I psychologically it took me a long time to go. \n\nYeah, okay, I'm just gonna say coaches. By the way, the eighth executive coaching client came after I was saying coaches. That didn't stop that person from saying, hey, listen, I'm still interested. So it yeah so, but psychologically I'm like, oh, I'm going to kill my executive coaching business. No, no, it still works yeah. \n\nStuart: I think as well that's for the people who it doesn't resonate with. So any risk of losing people, the likelihood of those being converting clients, is probably slimmer anyway. There's always this concern about losing a potential client but the reality of that person converting is probably pretty slim because whether or not you have that clarity, all of your actions and everything that you do leads towards a particular direction. Anyway. It's just without having that clarity direction anyway, it's just without having that clarity. It's kind of a shotgun in that general direction rather than a laser focus on a particular target. So this idea that people are going to lose out on this whole potential market, I think the reality of converting those people is pretty slim. And what I like about the c-pop that you've got there coaches who've created a was it a job? Oh? \n\nit's a job job rather than a job rather than a business. I mean this whole, the nuance around that language, or the emotional message that is in the subtext. That's in that message is hey, you're doing all of the work, you're doing all the work anyway, but what you've actually created is something that isn't going to leverage your scale in the way that you want, and the thing to move it from A to B is not going and doing something else. You're doing the right thing, you're just doing it in an ineffective way. So to be able to have that, I think what comes from the additional benefit, that comes from the clarity, is the ability to layer in some of the emotional language or the resonator, the things that are really going to capture the attention. Like we started saying, gets the opportunities to hit the people. \n\nMitchell: Well, this is really interesting, right? So when I wear that hat not my publisher hat when I wear the hat, I look at the service you have right, and that service, but that price point is different than my service and my price point, and it is clearly something that some of the coaches that I'm working with actually need. So if I am of service to others ie coaches and they need that service, I'm going to bring you into the fold. It just makes obvious sense, right, and there's a couple of things to do. But can I share your CPAP or do you want to share your CPAP? I'll put it in chat, because this is what really resonated with me when you and I were talking, and do you want to say it? \n\nStuart: Because it's yours, yeah, so we're helping or looking for business owners using. If we edited the podcast, I'd edit myself, tripping over my own c-pop oh no, keep it as it is the authenticity business owners using conversation starting books. It's the the separation between books and people thinking of them in a traditional sense to the conversation starting book. It's the. Yeah, I like it because it shares some passion, it shares an outcome as part of the words. \n\nMitchell: If you don't mind, I will share your CPOP and tell me more, right? Because then? \n\nStuart: you have it on replay right. \n\nMitchell: So one of my superpower steward is when I know somebody's CPOP and it really is there, I could feel their energy. I can do the tell me more, regardless of what it is. In this particular case, I could actually do it with feeling, because I live this one as well. I just never articulated it this way when I was a publisher. It was very obvious. When we came up with this fee, I'm like, oh yeah, that is the right, that is exactly the right thing. But at the moment, that's your CPAP I don't need. That's not for me, right. So typically what happens is you could, if people know what the word CPAP is, you could say what's my CPOP? But maybe somewhere between 50 to 100,000 people know, so not enough. So what often happens is you could say something like clients that are attracted to me or clients I'm attracted to. Your case, it's clients that are attracted to me, business owners, using a conversation starting book. Let me tell you what that means. \n\nA lot of people have been taught and we've grew up thinking we need to create the book, the be all end of all, the book that solves all problems, that instantly I get to appear on the major talk shows and clients will start flocking my way. The truth is, book publishing is democratized and that will not happen. The chances of that happening is like the chances of winning the lotto. So what do you use a book for? You're using a book so that, when you give it to your prospect, knows the word give. When you give it to your prospect, you've started a conversation and that conversation can end with the client actually buying from me. Well, that's what I do. I work with business owners who need another step up, an advantage, to be able to get the people they're talking to to want to buy from them, and we do it in a quick and easy approach. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and that level of obviously, like you said, the unique ability that you've got to dial in the tell me more the clients, the thing that stops people in their tracks, initially, and then that next level of detail, the language and the cadence and the the resonance that you bring to it is a unique ability that you've got and it's something that a lot of other people, including me, would struggle with. But to be able to go through the process to get it dialed in and then refine it over time, even if the words are right the first time, the delivery is important as well. But that visibility that it brings to what you do in a short period of time, that doesn't sound like an elevator pitch, it's not close, it's share. It's such a unique difference. And again, the reason why I really wanted to share this podcast with people because, as we've got all of the books on the shelves here, I've moved things around the office. \n\nAll of these books on the shelves here it's the idea that people can take that asset and then, if it's not created already, have the clarity first, but if it is created and we've helped them a little bit with the clarity, but now they've got a chance to revisit it and bring it into a collected approach to get out there and use it in the real world. So not just build it and they will come. Instead, we've built something. We can refine a message, and now we can get that message out there in lots of different ways, but it has that consistency to it well, so what? \n\nwould be the oh sorry I'm sorry, I was going to say, um, what would be the first? We're obviously going to point people towards a place where they can learn more and I want to make sure we definitely get a chance to talk about that because there's a great event coming up that people can learn a lot from. But as people are thinking about this idea now, we've talked some through the book process of dialing in a single target audience. So, at least as far as the book goes, they're pretty attuned. So it's not really a philosophical challenge that they've got, but in terms of refining that message. So, going into the mechanics of it, maybe what are some easy ways that people can do to start thinking about. \n\nOkay, I've got a book that's talking about an individual group of people, a campaign, a target market. I've got the business that I know that I do, and now I hear Mitchell talk about dialing in these words and something called a CPOP. What's the easiest way for them to start taking this and acting on it, doing something with it? Is there a framework for going from accepting the idea to doing a first pass? \n\nMitchell: you have about four or five questions bundled into that question and and I appreciate that I just want to narrow it down a little bit so I could give you the answer that I think I heard, so so is it they already have a book and they're thinking about their c-pop and what's next? Or help me understand, yeah yeah, sorry. \n\nStuart: So there's two audiences who are listening. There's the people who have had the idea that a book is a good thing to do but they haven't necessarily done it yet. So for those people they can really go the clarity first route and dial in what their message is, and then a book is and out. The logical acts come further down the track. And there's a second group of people who have written something already. So we've helped them as far as kind of that single target audience goes for the book, but not to the extent of the clarity work that you do. So for both of those. One group has a broad idea and the other has a book already. But I think still from the perspective of dialing in either specifically their CPOP or their clarity message, what's a good way for them to start thinking about the language that goes around it, kind of narrowing it down to eight to 10 words. There's a thought process that goes along with that. \n\nMitchell: Yeah, got it. Well, I do clarity sessions with people, so that's one of the. You went to that last week. It's a 90 minute session. I guarantee everyone leaves their CPAP. We do have a course right. So we have an hour long asynchronous course. If you just join Credibility Nation, I think you can join it free. It's credibilitynationcom. You join it free for the first month. After that it's $35 a month. You can take the course. \n\nThe hard part is that we've been taught all these marketing cookie cutter things we do, and it's hard for us. We've been taught that the first thing out of our mouths need to be the elevator pitch. So think about this. Somebody asks you what you do. Let's be clear, they don't know you yet. They don't give a shit about what you do. What they care about is what can you do for them, what's in for me? We've been taught that when somebody says what do you do, that we talk about us. Well, I mean I do this and I do that, I do this and I do this other thing, and that's not the question they're really asking. So somebody says who are you? What do you do? Anytime you get a chance to pronounce yourself, please throw out the elevator pitch. The elevator pitch is potentially you're telling me more. It's not the first words on your mouth. \n\nWhen somebody says what do you? Do you as cleanly and as articulate as, with as much clarity as you can articulate, the playground you play in. It's the who and the what. So, in your particular case, business owners, when I answered your tell me more. I was just thinking about what do business owners care about? Right, in your particular case, over a thousand business owners have been able to create a conversation starting book. Now, if you'll notice your CPOP business owners using a conversation starting book, it's a great tool. How much? So? First thing you're doing is you're creating the conversation starting book. Well, what else do you do? And that's what you and I have been talking about on the side, right? So the thing that's fascinating is, once you have clarity, how you get credibility is by how you speak and how you show up online. It's consistent with your clarity. Once you have that, then for those who don't have the book yet, then you go to 90 minutes books and you actually get your book done. Those that have the book you already have an asset that gives you that incremental credibility. So that what comes next is and I really think for those who have been able to have a book, they need to focus on their clarity. They need to have consistent credibility. Then they need to create a client magnet, a product that's in their framework. That's just too easy to say no to, so I'll share. Because I think you're leaning in this direction, I'll share the. This is a framework to think about for everybody and this is what we do with folks. So for those just doing the podcast, step one is getting clarity. 98% of people don't have clarity. It's kind of hard to buy credibility when you don't have clarity, although that's what everyone does. But once you have clarity, then you can. If you deploy clarity properly, you can get consistent credibility. And you do that by having the words coming out of your mouth and your online presence being consistent with your level of clarity. That gives you and those who may work with you confidence. \n\nWhat comes next? If you know your audience, if you know who you're going to be playing with? You have your CPOP. You need a micro-commitment, so that is something that's typically $500 or less. That is just too easy for them to say no to, so you need to give them that micro-commitment. Now, in your particular case, stuart us playing together that micro commitment doesn't have to be yours. You could join your prospect in a clarity session so that they can get their CPOP. And once they have their CPOP, then they write the book with you. Right, that micro commitment doesn't have to be. We've been taught that we need to own our clients forever and once we get them, we don't let them go. But that's not how humans want to act, that's not how you want to act. So you can use other people's micro-commitment to then. \n\nWhat you do, stuart, is to become that community superhero. Once people experience you step number three then they're going to want more. And when they want more, how do you make a more robust community where you're really playing inside the playground you play in? So the book is probably just the start of the conversation starters. And what comes after that, what comes before that? How else do you play in a community? And so, for anyone who has a book existing, what's your CPOP? If you now articulate your CPOP now, cpop's, who and what? Who do you serve? One, two or three words and the what is simply the pain point or pleasure point. They experience the whole thing. Less than 10 words, it doesn't matter who you are. Less than 10 words, period, okay. And I have people say, oh, but I do this and it okay, let's let's yeah I've never been able to. \n\nNot be able to give it doesn't mean people accept it. Once you accept the, the place you play in, being able to then fine-tune your credibility, being able to then share the appropriate micro-commitment product, being able then to attract people around you because you're the right people who want to play in the community that you've created, becomes a whole lot easier. \n\nStuart:And that cycle of moving through each of the stages. I'll list them out on the podcast notes. I'll just list them out for people who aren't watching the video. Them out on the podcast notes, I'll just list them out for people who aren't watching the video. But those depths of battling in the message of giving people an easy way of getting started, of building the community and leading them to the next logical part of the process, if the idea is that people that we can help the best are there and willing to be clients, willing to be five-star prospects, it's just for, for whatever reason, either there's a credibility gap, or there's a lack of understanding, so the clarity is not quite there, or there's a timing issue, so that they would be, but just not in this particular moment, or there's something that's holding them back. \n\nEach of those elements just ticks off one of those points and it's do you remember the game Buckaroo Like when we were kids? It was like a little plastic donkey thing and you'd load it up with different picks and shovels and at some point would be the trigger point where it all flicked off. It's the same as that. You can never know. As a business owner, you can never know whether it's five buckets and three shovels or one bucket and two shovels, it's going to be the tipping point that kind of takes them over the fence into becoming a client. All we can do is be in control of putting more of those elements on the back of the donkey and want to pat myself on the back for some weird analogy that kind of played out. It's the thing, that's the only thing we've got control of. We don't know when someone it's going to be the day for them, we can. When it's going to be the day for them, we can just keep ticking these points. And that's what I really like about the framework, because the book is great at ticking two or three or five of those elements. But the rest of the framework then contributes to all the rest of it. \n\nAnd the confidence element that is in there between steps two and three. That confidence element both in confidence involves putting the message out there and confidence from the clients that they're in the right place, because I often think that it's people make a pretty quick decision about whether they want to work with you or not. But then it's this confidence balance see-through of okay, yeah, I'm in the right place. Okay, I still think I'm in the right place, I'm getting closer to the checkout, but then anything that knocks their confidence will just reset them back to the beginning. So again, overall, that that circle, that lifestyle, it really brings it together. Make sure we have time to talk about the coaching fest that's coming up, because that the timing of this is is pretty perfect. I think that, as a place that people can go to to get more, more understanding, to get more learning, it's a pretty big event. Talk a little bit about that, because I really want to encourage everyone to jump on board and attend there. \n\nMitchell: Yeah, we should have said this at the beginning, but maybe you could just pull a clip out. So, given the CPOP I plan, it made a lot of sense to pull some of the best coaching voices in the industry to be able to have a two-day summit. So it's a free event. It's called coachingfestcom. Stuart, put in your affiliate link in the notes right and the opportunity here is some of the best voices who are talking about well, do what you love and the money will follow. \n\nCraft what you do, that you love doing. How do you provide a service in such a way and what do you charge for it? How do you write content for your website? What should it look like? What should be? What should not be? What are content? How do you write good, compelling content? What's your brand? How do you show up as your brand? That and so much more. Now, if you're not officially calling yourself a coach, if you substitute, each one of the people I spoke with gave a half hour interview, and so, as I was thinking about the audience of someone who's created a job, not a business, the types of questions I asked were all focused around the types of things you can do. Now, if I was a marketing guy, I'd tell you to put your business on autopilot. But you don't want to put your business on autopilot. You want to be able to play in the playground where you're enjoying it every day right. \n\nthat's what the people I encouraged to to join me for speaking, and the people who the responses they gave were so powerful, even if you just went to one or two sessions. So it's coachingfestcom is a great way to learn and grow, and that's coming up at the end of this month. I'll do two other micro summits, but this particular one is focused on how do you show up in such a way that, particularly as a coach, how do you show up in such a way that is strong, is powerful, is something where people are not just being attracted to you, but you have a referring community who's referring you as well. \n\nStuart: I think it's such a perfect analogy for what we were talking about before, in the sense of you've picked the target audience. The CPOP is talking to the people who the playground that you want to play in, which is coaches, but the people who can also enjoy being on the swing or enjoy going on the side are all of the other business owners out there who are listening to this today. Everyone who's listening to this has raised their hand or expressed an interest in writing a book to build their business, of amplifying their message and engaging more of their clients in a way that really resonates with the service that they can. Expressed an interest in writing a book to build their business, of amplifying their message and engaging more of their clients in a way that really resonates with the service that they can provide. So, just as you said, whether you're a coach or any other type of business owner, substitute out that word for the information that's being shared, and what you'll learn, or have the opportunity to learn, is a huge set of of frameworks and ways of thinking about things that can benefit whatever business that you're in now. You, the we'll put the link in the show notes as, just as we were talking, I'm not sure whether we talked about this before but, as we were talking, I think, if we can, we've got a link that shows people come from this call, so what we'll do as well, we'll be able to see who those people are. I'll reach out to those people afterwards and I'll probably do a call with those guys, just do like a q a call, where we'll talk about what happened in the event in the context of a book and really help people dial in those ideas and then obviously, they've got lots of opportunities to to learn more about you and what you do and follow that path as well, and those the two paths, are so complementary. \n\nI think it really is a a pretty special opportunity and the timing has worked really well that we are a couple of weeks away from the events, so that people can if they've got a book already, they can just find ways to amplify and leverage it in all sorts of new, consistent ways. And if they've been thinking about a book but they haven't quite pulled the trigger, then this idea of the credibility and the clarity and some of the other things that the speakers in all sorts of new, consistent ways. And if they've been thinking about a book, but they haven't quite pulled the trigger. Then this idea of the credibility and the clarity and some of the other things that the speakers will talk about. They're dialing in this message and then using a book as a tool that again just amplifies and leverages all of the things that they've learned in the summit. Perfect timing, good summary, fantastic. Talking about perfect timing, I realized I didn't even look at the clock when we started recording, but I'm pretty sure we are we went a little bit over. \n\nThat's good, all good stuff. As people are watching and listening, I'll make sure that the show notes in either the podcast player or, if people are getting the email, there'll be the links to the show notes there. Any last words or advice for people? I'm sure over the years of experience you've had people who come back years later where they've thought about doing this but they haven't got around to it. The same happens for us. Any words of encouragement to kind of remind people to pull the trigger now and and not let this sit on the back burner, apart from the fact that the event is going to happen at the end of the month, so that ship's going to sail anyway. \n\nMitchell: In terms of pull the trigger on getting your book or pull the trigger on coming to the event. \n\nStuart: Well, I guess both, but the event was the main thing. I thought, kind of learning more about what you do and your world, yeah, you know, but yes, they should also write that book. \n\nMitchell: I think there's. We're all looking for the hidden secret we're all looking for and so many people are selling these pipe dreams of the easy button. And I'm going to say it's extremely simple, it's just not easy. And so by going to coaching fast, you're going to see a lot of people who are very successful. And when you hear fundamentally why they're successful and you start feeling that you see the playgrounds they're playing in, you see what they're doing and how they're doing it successfully and you want that for yourself. \n\nAnd then, by the way, if you do make a decision to go to 90-minute books, just make sure that Stuart doesn't start step number three until he's worked with you or brought you along to get your CPOP. Because if you have your clarity first and you want to make sure your website, your social presence, is in alignment with it, then you have this asset right and the asset is just complementary to everything else. And, by the way, you can create a summary of your book and that could be your micro-commitment product that you get ready for free even before you write the book. So it's a very interesting opportunity here for you to focus on what's really important who do you serve, what is it and how do they want to be served. How do you reach them in such a way where they're excited about you and how do you get people who go? You know what I need to recommend you to somebody else, because that's exactly something they want to focus on, and focusing on referral partners really powerful. \n\nStuart: Yeah, such a fantastic opportunity and I really it was such a thin thread that connected us in the first place a month or so ago and really it's a sign that the universe kind of brings people together at the right point. So the fact that we're having this conversation in enough time for people to sign up and join the free coaching fest, I think it really is great. Perfect timing, mitchell. Thank you, buddy, I really appreciate it. Uh, everyone, thanks for listening. I'll make sure that all of the notes are in the, all the links in the show notes, so check those out and then we'll catch everyone next time. \n\nMitchell: Sounds great. Thanks for having me, Stuart. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, I dive into the art of messaging with Global Credibility Expert Mitchell Levy.
\n\nMitchell and I were introduced earlier this year, and in talking to him, I really connected his work with our approach to helping business owners start conversations with clients and customers.
\n\nIn the show, we dissect the struggles professionals face in articulating their value and unique position in the marketplace and the power clarity and credibility have in personal and business branding. A challenge that could become harder in an AI-powered world, but where an abundance mindset means AI becomes a huge advantage in leveraging leadership.
\n\nWe discuss the strategic use of books as credibility tools and the importance of an authentic presence, and I share my journey of dialing in the message and determining who we can best help.
\n\nFinally, we highlight Mitchell's upcoming, free CoachingFest event, which will bring together 14 leading speakers to help professionals grow their influence and define their message.
\n\nThough it's called CoachingFest, this event is relevant to everyone listening, not just coaches, as we're all here to refine our message and get more clients. It's well worth checking out the link above.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/163
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nMitchell Levy:Mitchell's Website
\nCoachingFest:Registration Link
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everybody, Welcome to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Mitchell Levy. Mitchell, how are you doing?
\n\nMitchell: Stuart, I'm doing great, thank you, thank you.
\n\nStuart: Me too. Me too, I'm looking forward to this. The last couple of shows that I've done have been with people who I haven't had quite such a relationship with in the past. So you and I have met relatively recently, but we've had a lot of time to spend together. So this is I'm coming into this knowing a little bit more than I've done, kind of exploring the conversations with other people. So I'm excited to be able to share this with the audience. Why don't we start with a little bit of background on you and what you do Share with everyone listening some of the things that you were sharing with me?
\n\nMitchell: Let me so I'm. The title that I'm using for myself is Global Credibility Expert, and I birthed that title by interviewing 500 thought leaders between 2019 and 2020. So it was my Napoleon Hill journey and prior to that way, back in the dot-com days, I was working at some microsystems. I left there. Since there, I've been in Silicon Valley for 30 years. I've started 20-ish companies, including running multiple conferences. I've got four book publishing companies, so I don't hit the thousand mark, but we've hit 750. I focus on I'm part of Marshall Goldsmith's 100 coaches, so I actually am a executive coach and have a part of my business for that. And where I'm really excited now what I've been focusing on is I've sort of unraveled what does it really mean to be credible as a human, as a business person, and with that credibility, I've actually gotten the clarity on what does that really mean, and it was sort of the short answer. It's the missing step, but the bigger picture happily married for 35 years Is that right?
\n\nStuart: Oh, let's say yes.
\n\nMitchell: And she wrote what yeah, happily married 35 years, have a son who's 25. And we were generally. I'm in Silicon Valley and life is good.
\n\nStuart: That's the. I didn't realize there was a stone history. My background is IC on the project management side, so it's a little bit of a. I think we bonded a little bit in the way that we talked and described things, so maybe there's a slight underlying engineering connection that's coming through there as well. This we connected.
\n\nReally, talking about the credibility piece, I think that was we were introduced on linkedin by a slightly random connection, but the credibility piece is what really resonated in what I'm doing personally in the business, but then for our clients as well and as we were talking more and going into it, your position, that credibility and the clarity that comes from that, being able to define it in a particular way and using that as a jumping off point for all other messaging that particularly resonated. And I think that's really why I wanted to do the podcast, because for the people who are on our list, that this will go out to the people that we've worked with, trying to amplify their message and get their message out there in the world in a kind of conversation starting way. It all comes back to that seed. So, with the people who you've worked with, that experience that you bring to the conversation, where are most people, in terms of both the clarity of their messaging and then the credibility elements that they bring into it.
\n\nMitchell: You know, when I was doing the research and have found later, and so we're talking about over a thousand individuals and corporations. I'm going to give a number that's just absolutely preposterous 98% of everyone I've spoken with 98% do not have clarity on who they are and how they show up and can articulate that in less than 10 words.
\n\nStuart: Right, it's such a. That was the piece and I struggle with it as well. Even being relatively, I mean the book project, we start by telling people that they need to dial in that single target audience. But even for the work that we do, and then, as I do more and more LinkedIn conversations, the introduction calls with people to be able to crystallize it in such a small way you find yourself tripping over the words or adding in extra elements that defining and refining the message down. Do people tend to start with a broad understanding and then it's just getting specific on it, or are they very scattered in? Well, I could do anything for anyone.
\n\nMitchell: More than latter. We've been taught, so it's so funny. We've been taught something. I'm going to say many of the lessons that we've been taught are wrong. We were born knowing the answers right. So when you were born and the first time you go to a playground and other kids your age, you know that playground, that sandbox, is like the entire universe, and then another person that looks like you goes into that universe and you are instantly friends for life and you play forever, long, you get to play and then you probably never see that person again. And you play forever long, you get to play and then you probably never see that person again.
\n\nRight Now, if you think about the metaphor of going into a playground because you have a common goal to go on the swing together or go on the seesaw together, whatever tools you're playing with what's interesting is we've been taught we'll stick with the playground metaphor. I've never done this one, so we'll see how it turns out that more is better, right, the bigger the playground, the more things we can do, the continuous enjoyment like more is better. So when you're serving an audience, yeah, no, I don't like the playground. I'll come back to the playground, but let's go back to human nature when we talk about who we are and how we show up. We've been told, well, I work with. And then we need to give 10 or 20 definitions of different audiences we work with, because the more things we do this is what we've been taught the more things we do, the better chance that we're gonna capture the intention of somebody and they're gonna go oh my God, I love you, let me use that service. The opposite is actually true.
\n\nThe more narrow you could be in terms of how you present yourself, the more focused you could be on how you present yourself, the better the opportunity the person is going to say hey, you know what? I think I need this. Or I know there's somebody in my network that needs this and, by the way, can you do this other thing as well? Right, it's really now you have a choice, right? So there are people I work with who solely focus on men or solely focus on women.
\n\nIt is clear that, as they're talking about who they are and they come across so strongly and so powerfully that the person of the opposite sex I know you say you only work with men, but would you work with me? Or I know you say you only work with women, but I'm a guy, I'm kind of feminine in my characteristics. Would you work with me? So the interesting part is the simplicity of us, and I'm going to go back now to the playground of articulating, a playground we play in. Because, by the way, stuart, if you don't love what you do, you need to play somewhere else. If you don't love your job, you need to find something else that you do love.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's a great analogy and I think even more so it's amplified where we are at this point in time in society and technology and the overwhelm of all the messages it's almost, and again the overwhelm of all the messages. It's almost, and again analogy is going to fall over. But it's almost like the autistic. My wife's a kindergarten teacher and they've got a connected organization that looks after special needs kids and the autistic kids in those programs are quite often overwhelmed by the stimulation, so they're out in nature, so that's not quite so stimulating. They're wearing ear defenders, so they're out in nature, so that's not quite so stimulating. They're wearing ear defenders so they're not kind of overly overstimulated.
\n\nBut I think all of us to a certain degree are suffering from the same problem. There's so many messages coming in that as your eyes are filtering however many messages are out there unless you're seeing something that you recognize and resonating with something, that message just passes by. So to be able to talk in the language that people use, to use examples that resonate with them, to be consistently present in that way, it just gives money more indicators that they are likely to respond to rather than just having to filter out because there's so much noise out there. I think also it comes from a scarcity point of view. There's a in business I mean in life generally there's a feeling of scarcity. The country's too small, the business is too competitive, there's not enough food.
\n\nThere's a scarcity narrative that lies underneath everything which is we need to take and claim this, otherwise someone's going to get it, as opposed to the abundance framework of there's we were talking about uh, there's always a problem when you're talking with someone who you know well, because your mind kind of jumps all over the place to different conversations that you had in the past. But we were talking about the ai space and the narrative. There is around a lot of the the media at least taking jobs, causing problems, that the restrictive or the removing elements, rather than the abundance of this will create a whole new industry. That's never been seen before. And the fact that going into something with a specificity but knowing that as long as you pick a target audience that is big enough, then that can be the jumping off point for everything else. It's a much more effective way of thinking about something.
\n\nMitchell: I even got to the point where I wanted to interview 500 thought leaders on credibility is that I had recognized for a long time that book publishing was, and currently is, democratized. Anyone who wants to, it's very easy to create an asset called a book. Well, something happened interesting in 2023. In 2023, not just book publishing is democratized, but thought leadership is now democratized With AI. Anyone can be a thought leader in a space by just having the right prompts. It doesn't mean they have the experience and capabilities the simplicity of focusing on an audience, being able to articulate with that audience words that they can relate to so immediately that they're like wait a second, I need to hear more. Right, and so for me, the I, I first I made a mistake and then, if you're okay, we'll talk about your C, your about your CPOP stands for customer point of possibilities. This is the methodology, the approach that I use. That it's a mechanical approach and I'm going to say that mechanical approach has heart and with that heart, it allows somebody to articulate who they are and how they show up in less than 10 words. So we will share that.
\n\nWhat happened when I was interviewing 500 thought leaders on credibility? What I kind of realized that or thought by the way, I was wrong that what I need to do is I need to actually sell credibility and to go into marketplace, and hence the title Global Credibility Expert still a great title, and that needed to come first. Global Credibility Expert still a great title, and that needed to come first. And it turns out that many people sell credibility, many people are pushing at that, and let's go back to that number I gave earlier in the show 98%. Even the people who are selling credibility. When you ask them about their clarity and you ask them whether or not they're delivering clarity to their clients, the real answer is no.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nMitchell: Right. So a massive aha for me was the recognition that clarity comes before credibility.
\n\nStuart: Right from a kind of a hierarchy of human needs type perspective, that clarity. If you're trying to build credibility in something that you're not clear about, it automatically brings in variance and a lack of specificity and a breadth that can take you off target and going into a different playground. So that, thinking about that clarity first but then understanding that the credibility piece is immediately after it, I think together they really build to something that will help people engage more with the audience that they can help, because it's the line fishing approach rather than the trawling the seabed. It's the line fishing approach of knowing who those people are. It helps dial in all of the other activities and again, not to the exclusion of everything else, but there's only so many units of energy in the day. If you're going to do something and you've chosen the thing to do, then you can double down and really make it as effective and as efficient as possible. Yes, yes, do people have? Well, thank you, but I'm just replaying what I got from you the other day People have.
\n\nSometimes, when we're talking about writing books with people, there's this idea that in part they're thinking about a book as a traditional book. So it's broad and covers a lot of things in some degree of detail. So there's a breadth perspective that people come with and we're often saying people, okay, it's depth more than breadth that you're interested in, particularly for this as a product. So, as far as the clarity piece goes and the job that we're trying to do is really to get that down to 10 words, so it really hits the mark. For people Is one of the biggest problems that they have this idea of dialing it in and being as specific as they need to be, and it's kind of philosophically the idea that they struggle with. Or is it more mechanical in the sense of they accept the idea but all of the language that we use and the way that they're taught is very difficult to be narrowing in the language. Is it more philosophical or mechanical?
\n\nMitchell: I'm leaning towards philosophical as the. I'm leaning towards philosophical as the. There's a psychological thing. So let me talk about me and my CPOP for a second. We'll talk about you and your CPOP, right so, with who I am and what I do in my executive coaching business, I have seven slots allocated for executive coaching. The clients I work with are typically CEOs of companies that are running entities between 10 and a hundred million. Because I'm in Silicon Valley, that's a great fit for me.
\n\nI about I think it was three weeks ago, four weeks ago I closed my eighth slot, so I'm not actually aggressively looking for any more, although you know that's when the right person comes by and says and I'm like for you, yes, of course, right. So so that said my, my CPOP for that is not the one that I'm primarily using, but my CPOP when I was primarily focused on executive coaching and publishing, focused on executive coaching and publishing my CPOP was four words. It was CEOs flying like eagles. So those four words are powerful and very cool. And what makes me different than any other executive coach? What makes me different than anyone else? Right, and although I think I know what it is, it's not always easy for other people in the marketplace.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nMitchell: So when I realized clarity comes first versus when I was really focused on the credibility piece, when I realized clarity comes first, I realized I needed an audience where I could absolutely show an ROI. And it was an audience I was already playing with because I'm part of the Marshall Goldsmith 100 coaches and I get to see how all these coaches operate like behind the scenes. And it popped in my mind. So there's an organization called ICF, the International Coaching Federation. They are the grand organization that gives certification to all these other coaching organizations that are certified authors, not authors. Sorry, are certifying authors, not authors? Sorry, certifying coaches. So the interesting part is they do a biannual survey and in that survey they had specifically said now around the world, they have studies I don't know the numbers in the UK, in the US, what they said is there are over 100,000 executive coaches with an average salary of $50,000. I couldn't get that number out of my head and when I started thinking about what should my CPOP be today, the word that came out of my mouth as the who I was going to serve is not the word that I ever expected to be uttering, because why would I narrow myself, to be just so narrow? The word is coaches. By the way, why would I be so narrow in terms of that? And the answer is well, it's easy to demonstrate an ROI. I'll focus on this vertical first and then move to another vertical, and so my current CPOP is eight words coaches who've created a job, not a business. And as you know, stuart, what we're teaching when we bring people through our clarity session is not only to have that CPOP, but to be able to do the tell me more. So let me spend a minute, or less than a minute. I'll do the tell me more. So what happens? And, by the way, if you're an author, particularly an author who has published a book from 90-minute books, almost by definition, you also have a part of your business. That's coaching. You're either directly a coach or partly your business. The product or service requires some sort of coaching.
\n\nWhat has happened with coaches is you've been trained a methodology. What has happened with coaches is you've been trained a methodology. You've been trained a methodology to specifically transform a company or an individual and move them from A to B, but what you've not been trained is actually how to run a business as an entrepreneur, how to have a continuous set of conversations where you're building referral partners who refer you, how you're continually having your customers refer you referral partners who refer you, how you're continually having your customers refer you, how you basically have a calendar full of people who you're enjoying talking to and many of them turn into clients. We have a done with you program that does that with you. So that's probably about 40, 45 seconds. You got a good feeling of who I am and what I do, because the playground coaches, who've created a job, not a business, is very well articulated yeah when you oh, and by the way, to answer your direct question, I psychologically it took me a long time to go.
\n\nYeah, okay, I'm just gonna say coaches. By the way, the eighth executive coaching client came after I was saying coaches. That didn't stop that person from saying, hey, listen, I'm still interested. So it yeah so, but psychologically I'm like, oh, I'm going to kill my executive coaching business. No, no, it still works yeah.
\n\nStuart: I think as well that's for the people who it doesn't resonate with. So any risk of losing people, the likelihood of those being converting clients, is probably slimmer anyway. There's always this concern about losing a potential client but the reality of that person converting is probably pretty slim because whether or not you have that clarity, all of your actions and everything that you do leads towards a particular direction. Anyway. It's just without having that clarity direction anyway, it's just without having that clarity. It's kind of a shotgun in that general direction rather than a laser focus on a particular target. So this idea that people are going to lose out on this whole potential market, I think the reality of converting those people is pretty slim. And what I like about the c-pop that you've got there coaches who've created a was it a job? Oh?
\n\nit's a job job rather than a job rather than a business. I mean this whole, the nuance around that language, or the emotional message that is in the subtext. That's in that message is hey, you're doing all of the work, you're doing all the work anyway, but what you've actually created is something that isn't going to leverage your scale in the way that you want, and the thing to move it from A to B is not going and doing something else. You're doing the right thing, you're just doing it in an ineffective way. So to be able to have that, I think what comes from the additional benefit, that comes from the clarity, is the ability to layer in some of the emotional language or the resonator, the things that are really going to capture the attention. Like we started saying, gets the opportunities to hit the people.
\n\nMitchell: Well, this is really interesting, right? So when I wear that hat not my publisher hat when I wear the hat, I look at the service you have right, and that service, but that price point is different than my service and my price point, and it is clearly something that some of the coaches that I'm working with actually need. So if I am of service to others ie coaches and they need that service, I'm going to bring you into the fold. It just makes obvious sense, right, and there's a couple of things to do. But can I share your CPAP or do you want to share your CPAP? I'll put it in chat, because this is what really resonated with me when you and I were talking, and do you want to say it?
\n\nStuart: Because it's yours, yeah, so we're helping or looking for business owners using. If we edited the podcast, I'd edit myself, tripping over my own c-pop oh no, keep it as it is the authenticity business owners using conversation starting books. It's the the separation between books and people thinking of them in a traditional sense to the conversation starting book. It's the. Yeah, I like it because it shares some passion, it shares an outcome as part of the words.
\n\nMitchell: If you don't mind, I will share your CPOP and tell me more, right? Because then?
\n\nStuart: you have it on replay right.
\n\nMitchell: So one of my superpower steward is when I know somebody's CPOP and it really is there, I could feel their energy. I can do the tell me more, regardless of what it is. In this particular case, I could actually do it with feeling, because I live this one as well. I just never articulated it this way when I was a publisher. It was very obvious. When we came up with this fee, I'm like, oh yeah, that is the right, that is exactly the right thing. But at the moment, that's your CPAP I don't need. That's not for me, right. So typically what happens is you could, if people know what the word CPAP is, you could say what's my CPOP? But maybe somewhere between 50 to 100,000 people know, so not enough. So what often happens is you could say something like clients that are attracted to me or clients I'm attracted to. Your case, it's clients that are attracted to me, business owners, using a conversation starting book. Let me tell you what that means.
\n\nA lot of people have been taught and we've grew up thinking we need to create the book, the be all end of all, the book that solves all problems, that instantly I get to appear on the major talk shows and clients will start flocking my way. The truth is, book publishing is democratized and that will not happen. The chances of that happening is like the chances of winning the lotto. So what do you use a book for? You're using a book so that, when you give it to your prospect, knows the word give. When you give it to your prospect, you've started a conversation and that conversation can end with the client actually buying from me. Well, that's what I do. I work with business owners who need another step up, an advantage, to be able to get the people they're talking to to want to buy from them, and we do it in a quick and easy approach.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and that level of obviously, like you said, the unique ability that you've got to dial in the tell me more the clients, the thing that stops people in their tracks, initially, and then that next level of detail, the language and the cadence and the the resonance that you bring to it is a unique ability that you've got and it's something that a lot of other people, including me, would struggle with. But to be able to go through the process to get it dialed in and then refine it over time, even if the words are right the first time, the delivery is important as well. But that visibility that it brings to what you do in a short period of time, that doesn't sound like an elevator pitch, it's not close, it's share. It's such a unique difference. And again, the reason why I really wanted to share this podcast with people because, as we've got all of the books on the shelves here, I've moved things around the office.
\n\nAll of these books on the shelves here it's the idea that people can take that asset and then, if it's not created already, have the clarity first, but if it is created and we've helped them a little bit with the clarity, but now they've got a chance to revisit it and bring it into a collected approach to get out there and use it in the real world. So not just build it and they will come. Instead, we've built something. We can refine a message, and now we can get that message out there in lots of different ways, but it has that consistency to it well, so what?
\n\nwould be the oh sorry I'm sorry, I was going to say, um, what would be the first? We're obviously going to point people towards a place where they can learn more and I want to make sure we definitely get a chance to talk about that because there's a great event coming up that people can learn a lot from. But as people are thinking about this idea now, we've talked some through the book process of dialing in a single target audience. So, at least as far as the book goes, they're pretty attuned. So it's not really a philosophical challenge that they've got, but in terms of refining that message. So, going into the mechanics of it, maybe what are some easy ways that people can do to start thinking about.
\n\nOkay, I've got a book that's talking about an individual group of people, a campaign, a target market. I've got the business that I know that I do, and now I hear Mitchell talk about dialing in these words and something called a CPOP. What's the easiest way for them to start taking this and acting on it, doing something with it? Is there a framework for going from accepting the idea to doing a first pass?
\n\nMitchell: you have about four or five questions bundled into that question and and I appreciate that I just want to narrow it down a little bit so I could give you the answer that I think I heard, so so is it they already have a book and they're thinking about their c-pop and what's next? Or help me understand, yeah yeah, sorry.
\n\nStuart: So there's two audiences who are listening. There's the people who have had the idea that a book is a good thing to do but they haven't necessarily done it yet. So for those people they can really go the clarity first route and dial in what their message is, and then a book is and out. The logical acts come further down the track. And there's a second group of people who have written something already. So we've helped them as far as kind of that single target audience goes for the book, but not to the extent of the clarity work that you do. So for both of those. One group has a broad idea and the other has a book already. But I think still from the perspective of dialing in either specifically their CPOP or their clarity message, what's a good way for them to start thinking about the language that goes around it, kind of narrowing it down to eight to 10 words. There's a thought process that goes along with that.
\n\nMitchell: Yeah, got it. Well, I do clarity sessions with people, so that's one of the. You went to that last week. It's a 90 minute session. I guarantee everyone leaves their CPAP. We do have a course right. So we have an hour long asynchronous course. If you just join Credibility Nation, I think you can join it free. It's credibilitynationcom. You join it free for the first month. After that it's $35 a month. You can take the course.
\n\nThe hard part is that we've been taught all these marketing cookie cutter things we do, and it's hard for us. We've been taught that the first thing out of our mouths need to be the elevator pitch. So think about this. Somebody asks you what you do. Let's be clear, they don't know you yet. They don't give a shit about what you do. What they care about is what can you do for them, what's in for me? We've been taught that when somebody says what do you do, that we talk about us. Well, I mean I do this and I do that, I do this and I do this other thing, and that's not the question they're really asking. So somebody says who are you? What do you do? Anytime you get a chance to pronounce yourself, please throw out the elevator pitch. The elevator pitch is potentially you're telling me more. It's not the first words on your mouth.
\n\nWhen somebody says what do you? Do you as cleanly and as articulate as, with as much clarity as you can articulate, the playground you play in. It's the who and the what. So, in your particular case, business owners, when I answered your tell me more. I was just thinking about what do business owners care about? Right, in your particular case, over a thousand business owners have been able to create a conversation starting book. Now, if you'll notice your CPOP business owners using a conversation starting book, it's a great tool. How much? So? First thing you're doing is you're creating the conversation starting book. Well, what else do you do? And that's what you and I have been talking about on the side, right? So the thing that's fascinating is, once you have clarity, how you get credibility is by how you speak and how you show up online. It's consistent with your clarity. Once you have that, then for those who don't have the book yet, then you go to 90 minutes books and you actually get your book done. Those that have the book you already have an asset that gives you that incremental credibility. So that what comes next is and I really think for those who have been able to have a book, they need to focus on their clarity. They need to have consistent credibility. Then they need to create a client magnet, a product that's in their framework. That's just too easy to say no to, so I'll share. Because I think you're leaning in this direction, I'll share the. This is a framework to think about for everybody and this is what we do with folks. So for those just doing the podcast, step one is getting clarity. 98% of people don't have clarity. It's kind of hard to buy credibility when you don't have clarity, although that's what everyone does. But once you have clarity, then you can. If you deploy clarity properly, you can get consistent credibility. And you do that by having the words coming out of your mouth and your online presence being consistent with your level of clarity. That gives you and those who may work with you confidence.
\n\nWhat comes next? If you know your audience, if you know who you're going to be playing with? You have your CPOP. You need a micro-commitment, so that is something that's typically $500 or less. That is just too easy for them to say no to, so you need to give them that micro-commitment. Now, in your particular case, stuart us playing together that micro commitment doesn't have to be yours. You could join your prospect in a clarity session so that they can get their CPOP. And once they have their CPOP, then they write the book with you. Right, that micro commitment doesn't have to be. We've been taught that we need to own our clients forever and once we get them, we don't let them go. But that's not how humans want to act, that's not how you want to act. So you can use other people's micro-commitment to then.
\n\nWhat you do, stuart, is to become that community superhero. Once people experience you step number three then they're going to want more. And when they want more, how do you make a more robust community where you're really playing inside the playground you play in? So the book is probably just the start of the conversation starters. And what comes after that, what comes before that? How else do you play in a community? And so, for anyone who has a book existing, what's your CPOP? If you now articulate your CPOP now, cpop's, who and what? Who do you serve? One, two or three words and the what is simply the pain point or pleasure point. They experience the whole thing. Less than 10 words, it doesn't matter who you are. Less than 10 words, period, okay. And I have people say, oh, but I do this and it okay, let's let's yeah I've never been able to.
\n\nNot be able to give it doesn't mean people accept it. Once you accept the, the place you play in, being able to then fine-tune your credibility, being able to then share the appropriate micro-commitment product, being able then to attract people around you because you're the right people who want to play in the community that you've created, becomes a whole lot easier.
\n\nStuart:And that cycle of moving through each of the stages. I'll list them out on the podcast notes. I'll just list them out for people who aren't watching the video. Them out on the podcast notes, I'll just list them out for people who aren't watching the video. But those depths of battling in the message of giving people an easy way of getting started, of building the community and leading them to the next logical part of the process, if the idea is that people that we can help the best are there and willing to be clients, willing to be five-star prospects, it's just for, for whatever reason, either there's a credibility gap, or there's a lack of understanding, so the clarity is not quite there, or there's a timing issue, so that they would be, but just not in this particular moment, or there's something that's holding them back.
\n\nEach of those elements just ticks off one of those points and it's do you remember the game Buckaroo Like when we were kids? It was like a little plastic donkey thing and you'd load it up with different picks and shovels and at some point would be the trigger point where it all flicked off. It's the same as that. You can never know. As a business owner, you can never know whether it's five buckets and three shovels or one bucket and two shovels, it's going to be the tipping point that kind of takes them over the fence into becoming a client. All we can do is be in control of putting more of those elements on the back of the donkey and want to pat myself on the back for some weird analogy that kind of played out. It's the thing, that's the only thing we've got control of. We don't know when someone it's going to be the day for them, we can. When it's going to be the day for them, we can just keep ticking these points. And that's what I really like about the framework, because the book is great at ticking two or three or five of those elements. But the rest of the framework then contributes to all the rest of it.
\n\nAnd the confidence element that is in there between steps two and three. That confidence element both in confidence involves putting the message out there and confidence from the clients that they're in the right place, because I often think that it's people make a pretty quick decision about whether they want to work with you or not. But then it's this confidence balance see-through of okay, yeah, I'm in the right place. Okay, I still think I'm in the right place, I'm getting closer to the checkout, but then anything that knocks their confidence will just reset them back to the beginning. So again, overall, that that circle, that lifestyle, it really brings it together. Make sure we have time to talk about the coaching fest that's coming up, because that the timing of this is is pretty perfect. I think that, as a place that people can go to to get more, more understanding, to get more learning, it's a pretty big event. Talk a little bit about that, because I really want to encourage everyone to jump on board and attend there.
\n\nMitchell: Yeah, we should have said this at the beginning, but maybe you could just pull a clip out. So, given the CPOP I plan, it made a lot of sense to pull some of the best coaching voices in the industry to be able to have a two-day summit. So it's a free event. It's called coachingfestcom. Stuart, put in your affiliate link in the notes right and the opportunity here is some of the best voices who are talking about well, do what you love and the money will follow.
\n\nCraft what you do, that you love doing. How do you provide a service in such a way and what do you charge for it? How do you write content for your website? What should it look like? What should be? What should not be? What are content? How do you write good, compelling content? What's your brand? How do you show up as your brand? That and so much more. Now, if you're not officially calling yourself a coach, if you substitute, each one of the people I spoke with gave a half hour interview, and so, as I was thinking about the audience of someone who's created a job, not a business, the types of questions I asked were all focused around the types of things you can do. Now, if I was a marketing guy, I'd tell you to put your business on autopilot. But you don't want to put your business on autopilot. You want to be able to play in the playground where you're enjoying it every day right.
\n\nthat's what the people I encouraged to to join me for speaking, and the people who the responses they gave were so powerful, even if you just went to one or two sessions. So it's coachingfestcom is a great way to learn and grow, and that's coming up at the end of this month. I'll do two other micro summits, but this particular one is focused on how do you show up in such a way that, particularly as a coach, how do you show up in such a way that is strong, is powerful, is something where people are not just being attracted to you, but you have a referring community who's referring you as well.
\n\nStuart: I think it's such a perfect analogy for what we were talking about before, in the sense of you've picked the target audience. The CPOP is talking to the people who the playground that you want to play in, which is coaches, but the people who can also enjoy being on the swing or enjoy going on the side are all of the other business owners out there who are listening to this today. Everyone who's listening to this has raised their hand or expressed an interest in writing a book to build their business, of amplifying their message and engaging more of their clients in a way that really resonates with the service that they can. Expressed an interest in writing a book to build their business, of amplifying their message and engaging more of their clients in a way that really resonates with the service that they can provide. So, just as you said, whether you're a coach or any other type of business owner, substitute out that word for the information that's being shared, and what you'll learn, or have the opportunity to learn, is a huge set of of frameworks and ways of thinking about things that can benefit whatever business that you're in now. You, the we'll put the link in the show notes as, just as we were talking, I'm not sure whether we talked about this before but, as we were talking, I think, if we can, we've got a link that shows people come from this call, so what we'll do as well, we'll be able to see who those people are. I'll reach out to those people afterwards and I'll probably do a call with those guys, just do like a q a call, where we'll talk about what happened in the event in the context of a book and really help people dial in those ideas and then obviously, they've got lots of opportunities to to learn more about you and what you do and follow that path as well, and those the two paths, are so complementary.
\n\nI think it really is a a pretty special opportunity and the timing has worked really well that we are a couple of weeks away from the events, so that people can if they've got a book already, they can just find ways to amplify and leverage it in all sorts of new, consistent ways. And if they've been thinking about a book but they haven't quite pulled the trigger, then this idea of the credibility and the clarity and some of the other things that the speakers in all sorts of new, consistent ways. And if they've been thinking about a book, but they haven't quite pulled the trigger. Then this idea of the credibility and the clarity and some of the other things that the speakers will talk about. They're dialing in this message and then using a book as a tool that again just amplifies and leverages all of the things that they've learned in the summit. Perfect timing, good summary, fantastic. Talking about perfect timing, I realized I didn't even look at the clock when we started recording, but I'm pretty sure we are we went a little bit over.
\n\nThat's good, all good stuff. As people are watching and listening, I'll make sure that the show notes in either the podcast player or, if people are getting the email, there'll be the links to the show notes there. Any last words or advice for people? I'm sure over the years of experience you've had people who come back years later where they've thought about doing this but they haven't got around to it. The same happens for us. Any words of encouragement to kind of remind people to pull the trigger now and and not let this sit on the back burner, apart from the fact that the event is going to happen at the end of the month, so that ship's going to sail anyway.
\n\nMitchell: In terms of pull the trigger on getting your book or pull the trigger on coming to the event.
\n\nStuart: Well, I guess both, but the event was the main thing. I thought, kind of learning more about what you do and your world, yeah, you know, but yes, they should also write that book.
\n\nMitchell: I think there's. We're all looking for the hidden secret we're all looking for and so many people are selling these pipe dreams of the easy button. And I'm going to say it's extremely simple, it's just not easy. And so by going to coaching fast, you're going to see a lot of people who are very successful. And when you hear fundamentally why they're successful and you start feeling that you see the playgrounds they're playing in, you see what they're doing and how they're doing it successfully and you want that for yourself.
\n\nAnd then, by the way, if you do make a decision to go to 90-minute books, just make sure that Stuart doesn't start step number three until he's worked with you or brought you along to get your CPOP. Because if you have your clarity first and you want to make sure your website, your social presence, is in alignment with it, then you have this asset right and the asset is just complementary to everything else. And, by the way, you can create a summary of your book and that could be your micro-commitment product that you get ready for free even before you write the book. So it's a very interesting opportunity here for you to focus on what's really important who do you serve, what is it and how do they want to be served. How do you reach them in such a way where they're excited about you and how do you get people who go? You know what I need to recommend you to somebody else, because that's exactly something they want to focus on, and focusing on referral partners really powerful.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, such a fantastic opportunity and I really it was such a thin thread that connected us in the first place a month or so ago and really it's a sign that the universe kind of brings people together at the right point. So the fact that we're having this conversation in enough time for people to sign up and join the free coaching fest, I think it really is great. Perfect timing, mitchell. Thank you, buddy, I really appreciate it. Uh, everyone, thanks for listening. I'll make sure that all of the notes are in the, all the links in the show notes, so check those out and then we'll catch everyone next time.
\n\nMitchell: Sounds great. Thanks for having me, Stuart.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, I dive into the art of messaging with Global Credibility Expert Mitchell Levy. \r\n\r\nMitchell and I were introduced earlier this year, and in talking to him, I really connected his work with our approach to helping business owners start conversations with clients and customers.\r\n\r\nIn the show, we dissect the struggles professionals face in articulating their value and unique position in the marketplace and the power clarity and credibility have in personal and business branding. A challenge that could become harder in an AI-powered world, but where an abundance mindset means AI becomes a huge advantage in leveraging leadership.\r\n\r\nWe discuss the strategic use of books as credibility tools and the importance of an authentic presence, and I share my journey of dialing in the message and determining who we can best help. \r\n\r\nFinally, we highlight Mitchell's upcoming, free [CoachingFest](https://go.360summits.com/t?orid=616691&opid=165) event, which will bring together 14 leading speakers to help professionals grow their influence and define their message. \r\n\r\nThough it's called CoachingFest, this event is relevant to everyone listening, not just coaches, as we're all here to refine our message and get more clients. It's well worth checking out the link above. ","date_published":"2024-04-16T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/e150a06e-b5e1-4220-8a6a-695b74cd9ffd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32024100,"duration_in_seconds":2658}]},{"id":"c018ef57-f833-47f0-8a7a-a62045619c22","title":"Ep162: Words Matter","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/162","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, Betsey and I discuss the unexpected longevity business owners can experience through book publishing. We share client success stories of doors kept open years later through meaningful connections fostered. Betsey emphasizes genuinely engaging audiences to elevate your expertise. \n\nOur conversation also reveals the personalized approach we take with each author. While some thrive on meticulous planning, others appreciate creative freedom - our process caters to everyones needs.\n\nWe talk about book titles and first impressions. We explore choosing impactful words through various lens and learning from others' input. Betsy draws parallels to historical warning systems and titles' role signaling treasures within. \n\nOverall, our discussion illuminated tangible ways publishing can continuously attract opportunities through meaningful human connections and insight-sharing, not just short-term sales metrics.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Stuart and Betsey discuss the long-term benefits of book publishing for business growth, noting that the goal is to engage the right audience rather than just sell copies.\n We explore the simplicity and personal touch of our bookmaking process, appealing to both detail-oriented individuals and visionaries.\n The importance of word choice in all forms of communication, including book titles, emails, and other marketing materials, is emphasized as key to connecting with the audience.\n Betsey and I delve into the significance of book titles and subtitles in attracting readers and accurately conveying the book's content.\n We share insights on the collaborative process of selecting a book title, considering various viewpoints to ensure it resonates with potential readers.\n The episode draws an analogy between the role of a book title and the canary in the coal mine, serving as an early signal to readers of what to expect.\n Stuart and Betsey highlight the power of a strong title paired with an amplifying subtitle to start meaningful conversations and transform readers into clients.\n Stuart discusses a LinkedIn post he made about the importance of language, illustrating with an example of a political email's unintended connotations.\n We touch on common title selection challenges that authors face, and the importance of clarity and context in book titles, especially for conversation-starting books.\n The conversation wraps up with the acknowledgment that time can be an ally in the writing process, allowing for revisions and improvements to ensure the message aligns with the author's intent.\n\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/162\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show, stuart Bell. Here and today we are joined by Betsy Vaughan. Betsy, how are you doing. \n\nBetsey: I'm great, stuart. Good to be here with you. \n\nStuart: I know it's been a little while we used to do every week. But I hope people don't think that you're replaced by other guests, but we just figured collectively. \n\nBetsey: Oh, we've got some really great guests though, so you know I love to hear what the guests are saying and listen to those podcasts, you know more than listening to myself well, definitely about time that we were back on talking about things, because it gives us the opportunity just to tap through a few ideas for people who aren't familiar. \n\nStuart: You're obviously running the book business for us day-to-day, so dealing with a lot of clients and potential clients, so run through a lot of those common questions. So good to chat about some of that. And then I made a post yesterday on LinkedIn, so I thought we'd give an opportunity to dive into that a little bit deeper as well. \n\nBetsey: Sounds good. \n\nStuart: Okay, so let's start with clients, I guess quickly. \n\nSo one of the things that's been super interesting I might title this episode Lessons Learned from LinkedIn, because we've put a little bit more focus on that recently than perhaps we have done in the past few years. \n\nSo one of the things that came up as I've been connecting with past clients, I was a little bit sporadic with making those connections as we were going along. So doing a bit of a job of catching up with people now and the thing that's been a real, I want to say, surprise is not only a surprise but maybe unexpected is the positive feedback. So, as I'm connected with clients who were there from maybe three, four, five years ago, I'm asking them how's it going with the book? And the response has been really quite interesting and there's quite a broad. We're going to have some people as guests in the future. There's quite a broad set of ways that people are using the books and want to remove to a certain degree compared with you. But that feedback if people really talking about how they're using them and the way that they're being received do you hear, hear that? \n\nBetsey: Yeah, you know, that is such a I think the universe has a world, a way of sending those nice comments just when you need them. So if you're having a frustrated day, I'll just let the nice comment from a client who's just finished their book, you know, or you know somebody who shares hey, this is what I'm doing with the book and it's funny. We've talked about this in the past and we can talk about it again. People say, oh, I'm not selling as many books on Amazon as I thought I would, which is exactly what we tell them when they want to put it on Amazon. But wow, you know they're getting a lot of response. People are either downloading it or asking for it and you know, it's turning into real business for these individuals. So you know, yeah, selling your book on Amazon is great and it's, you know, impressive you know. \n\nBut really the goal is exactly that to, you know, reach people so they raise their hand so that they do business with you, and that's where the financial value is, and so we're a lot, you know. So that is really, you know, a positive thing. People don't know what they're doing when it comes to writing a book, so they're pleasantly surprised with how simple our process is. We get that a lot Like we're just easy and not to toot our own horn by any means, but we are a small team and we have, you know, so there's a. We're very personal. So, you know, I'm getting text messages and phone calls, you know. So we, I think we bring that advantage, and so I think the client really feels that personal customer service touch, you know. So it's positive to hear. So, you know, people use it in different ways Some free, do free downloads, some give them away at events, some, you know, charge a little bit for them, but the end result seems to be the same are having great success with their books it's that. \n\nStuart: It's funny, isn't it? The whole kind of bestseller bs type approach that we have? Is that so going into the project thinking that's the only option, that you're going to do it and then sit back and wait for the new york times to bring their award around to your front door, when the there's such a small use case where that's valid, and then it it's such an expensive and time consuming route. For the majority of us who are running real world businesses where we want to get in front of the 100,000 people within 50 miles of where the office is, it's a real different take. I had a comment come back. Someone put a LinkedIn note saying that they wrote their book first and then they'd referred us to a business partner and the comment was along the lines of hey, I'm. I'm more of a implementer type, interested in the process and the details a little bit like my personality, and the process worked very well for me. And then the person that I referred across is a very kind of visionary. If you're familiar with the Eos type language, visionary person rather than an implemented person is a little bit more scattered and a little bit more high level and less in tune with the details, but the process worked equally well for them as well, and they were just as pleased with the outcome. So, yeah, it's, it's nice to see that we're doing something right and it's resonating with the people we can help. Okay, so linkedin. \n\nI put a post out a couple of days ago and titled it words are important, and I think this is worth talking about, because the same applies whether it's an email, which was the example that we'll talk about, or a book title, or a blog post or a letter, any way of communicating with people. \n\nIt's this idea that words are important and they actually mean something different. So the email that I received was from the Robert Kennedy campaign, but I'd signed up for something at some point and that's why I'm on the list, so got nothing to do the politics of the candidate I'm actually somewhat of a fan of the candidates, but the email that got sent out said the subject was the subject was bail into the sunset with rfk. Now, given that this person's a third party candidate and the media narrative is that third party candidates have an impossible job every point, now, with the republican candidates all dropping out the Democratic candidates I mean there were very few other candidates anyway and other people apart from the two primary nominees. The narrative is that these people are dropping out. Then an email titled Hill into the Sunset is a little bit of a liminal message that, hey, this is over now I'm off and good luck. \n\nI'll see you later yeah, absolutely the purpose of the purpose of the message was a fundraising thing and it was actually some invitation to go on a sunset cruise, on like a donors type boat ride, whatever, the whatever they call it. As you can tell from the accent, I'm not that up on American politics completely, or not in the history at least. So, the language being important, given that there's an underlying narrative of hey, it's only a matter of time before this person has to drop out because it becomes unviable, it was just such a clear smack in the face of hey, what you actually mean here isn't what you're saying. As an example, it takes two seconds of thinking about it and I don't want to pick on this particular whoever wrote this email because, hey, I've sent out a whole load of stuff and looked back at it later and realized it wasn't quite what I meant. But hopefully this is an example for everyone to think about the words that they say. \n\nParticularly obviously we're talking about book titles or subheadings, which is the thing in front of people as you present your book out there. But the Sailing to the Sunset with RFK has a very different vibe to the message. That is Setting Sail with RFK. I mean even changing those words setting sail has such a positive connotation to it. Absolutely, it opens up possibilities and potential setting sail to new horizons, which actually is also 100% on brand with the candidate. I mean, that's what he's trying to be there as the difference maker between the incumbent systems. So I thought it was worth just diving into a little bit and this idea of of wording important and they mean something and it's worth taking two seconds to put it to one side and come back and look at it again. Right, in terms of people that you're talking to and titles that people come up with, do you hear any? Is there any like common thread of people making title mistakes or things that they want to do that perhaps we advise against? \n\nBetsey: you know, I think people that everybody knows their content, like they know truly what they want to put in the book and they have all that like in their mind. But the title is something that people really maybe not the title so much, but the subtitle. You know that I tend we tend to struggle with a little bit and it's sometimes it's it can be very. You just put a book up that says focus, focus. What does that mean? You know? I mean there's nothing. So you need, you know, some sort of, you know some sort of subtitle that says what this book is actually about, because the reality of it you're going to take, you know, I'm not interested in that, I don't know what it's about. You know, whereas saying focused, how to you know, focus your dollars so you have a great retirement, that's a bad example, but whatever, you know like saying just knowing what, that's a bad example. \n\nBut whatever you know, like saying just knowing what, okay, great, this tells me something. So I think we struggle a little bit with that and some people will tend to question a lot and sometimes some things don't make sense and you know we have to sort of I tend to pull, you know, ask your opinion, dean's opinion. Nobody else really wants to. They're like just doing their job so they don't get excited about it. Like you know wants to. \n\nStuart: They're like just doing their job, so they don't get excited about it like you know, like I would sometimes. \n\nBetsey: You know, yeah, exactly god, when our designer he does, and he always. We have side conversations a lot you know about. I really don't think this would be a better subtitle. So we do that you know a lot and we'll kind of what's interesting? \n\nStuart: what's interesting about god's take on it is because he's coming from a design perspective. He's got such a narrow focus on just the cover so it doesn't have the context of the rest of the book. He hasn't worked through the outline. He hasn't, isn't at the front cover stage, at least isn't looking at the call to action. It's more hey, the only information I've got is what's presented here. So it's a really interesting take because from a receiver's point of view, a potential customer that's on linkedin and sees an ad for their book, scroll by. That's all they've got as well. So goblin's, almost the canary in the coal mine, if I'm not sure whether that does that same translate from uk to american I don't think so. \n\nBetsey: Canary in the coal mine no. \n\nStuart: So they say I wonder if how many people listening, whether it means anything. So canary in the coal mine is a saying, for it's an early warning, like it's an indicator of something might be wrong and it comes. This is going to be one of those historic things that I used to question in 2024. Is that really what happens? So canaries, like like the little birds, canaries used to be taken live down coal mines because they were very susceptible to methane gas. So if you were down the mine with your canary and your canary died, that was a sign that you needed to get out there. So yeah, canary in the coal mine it's a thing, for it's an early warning that's great. \n\nBetsey: Now see, I mean I should. I have coal mining family, like my mom's, west virginia. Her family's all mad. \n\nStuart: Okay, yeah, maybe something that you know she made, yeah ask him and then report back on the next podcast and we'll see where other people know. \n\nBetsey: Yeah, like god he doesn't, unless he has more you know, unless for some reason he happens to get on a call. Sometimes he it really is kind of like a crapshoot, if you will you know with what he's doing, especially when you have such a vague title or subtype, particular title yeah yeah. \n\nStuart: So I think, tying that back to the job of work that we're trying to do, it is those one word titles became very kind of a couple of years ago for bestseller those types of books, and I think in that context, so if you've got, if you've got a book like clarity game, like he was, Jamie. \n\nSmart. Yeah, I'm thinking of Clarity, the book that we wrote. He was the okay. This turned into a terrible example, the best-selling book there's something like Clarity, by someone who I can't quite remember, but it was a bestseller a couple of years ago. \n\nThat title. There's a lot of marketing effort put behind the fact that that title resonates. So it's a name it and claim it type title because the person's name is on the tip of my brain but it's fallen the wrong way, not out of my mouth anyway. That title has got a lot of marketing push behind the fact that it gets traction and people know what it means. It's like a company name. If you called your company google now it makes perfect sense, but for many years and any dollars that doesn't make any sense. And if you had a shop front that was just called Google, as people drive past they're not exactly going to get a lot of insights into what you do. So having that explicit, explicit does what it says on the tin type title is just way more effective as we're working with people, to start conversations with real clients. \n\nThe subheading actually. If people don't have a copy, they should get a copy of the book. Blueprint scorecard. I'll stick a link for it in the podcast notes. But the title that stops people in the track and makes people say I want that is one of the key, one of the eight building blocks we talk about. And then the amplifying subheading something that builds on the message of the key one of the eight building blocks that we talk about. And then the amplifying subheading, something that builds on the message of the title and amplifies it, not adds confusion by bringing in a relevant subject, irrelevant talking points or isn't. We're not trying to keyword stuff all of the different possible terms that you can just throw into a subheading rather than a title. Those two things it really does act like the headline and the subheading rather than a title. Those two things. It really does act like the headline and the subheading on a, on an ad, and that's a pretty clear way of thinking about it, this idea of the language being clear. \n\nI think the other element that it triggers or touches upon is context. So, just as we were talking about, a bestseller type traditional book has a lot of advertising dollars behind it in order for it to be clear. It's being sold from bookshop bookstore shelves. So the ability for someone to go in and actively seek that book. If it had a very long title, there might be more cases where someone doesn't find what they're looking for because it's not as easy to remember. If someone's talking about it to a friend, then a short, one word title which is named and has a lot of advertising dollars behind it might resonate. It's sticking people's minds more than if there was a longer title. \n\nBut the context in which we're using books and most people listening are going to use books is it's in an ad on LinkedIn or Facebook. We're trying to stop people in their day-to-day activity and make them say I want that and hold their hand and raise their hand. Rather, it might be at a conference where you're talking about a particular subject and you're giving a copy to people. It might be as people walk in through the door. They're coming to ask you about a certain framework or methodology or service that you provide and you give them a copy of the book as a amplifying part of the closing process. \n\nBut again, that reinforces the, the problem statement, the issue that they came in with. Or you might be using it as referrals and asking existing clients if they hear of anyone talking about a similar problem. Let me know and I'll give you the copy of the book to help your friend or family member. All of those scenarios. You're being responsible for initiating that conversation with the other person. They're not going out and looking for it it so I think that's another key difference between the context and the way in which traditional books are discovered. This is the way conversation starting books are discovered. It's much more on a path that we control and we initiate, as opposed to something where we're hoping that someone will remember the title so that when they're in a bookstore or when they're on amazon, they'll have enough muscle memory to key in the things that we hope that they'll find oh, yeah, very good it's um well it was just real fast. \n\nBetsey: This popped up in my head. Um, just I was talking to dean and he asked me if we'd heard about. We had a titles workshop recently and this gentleman has written a book about mold specific black mold, you know, in homes and businesses and stuff and his title is mold doesn't have to be a scary subject. And he said do you think I need to change my title? And I said absolutely not. Like it's exact. I mean that is exactly what you want people to know. It's exactly. I mean I've read the content. That's exactly what the content is. This is perfect. Like do not second guess, you know your title. So he just happened to pop up and it triggered my memory to think about him saying that I mean it says everything plain and simple, you know. \n\nStuart: It doesn't have to put a picture of. \n\nBetsey: Black Malt in front of his book or anything you know. \n\nStuart: I mold in front of his book or anything. You know I mean words are enough. You know we were doing some ad testing on a call in the. In this thursday this week I was on a call where we were running through some ad tests and there's an image that goes along with every ad. So there was a subset of those ads that were the disturbing looking images and we were trying to. The copy was the same on all of them so we were seeing the response rate between, kind of like, friendly images and disturbing images. The disturbing images were slightly higher than the friendly images, which is interesting. \n\nIt's always interesting and it goes to show that right and it goes to show the your own personal bias against things. Just let the data tell you what the result is. You shouldn't go in with too much of a. You've got to go in with a wreck and an opinion to begin with, but let the real world feedback steer you in the right direction. I'm always resistant I think I'm always resistant to those types of images because it reminds me of those crappy adwords, ads or ad network ads you see on the bottom of some sites that have just got the worst looking pictures and seems to be like the real quick bait end of the market. But yeah, the I mean the numbers are the numbers I was going to say on that, that title and taking that as an example. \n\nThere's no ambiguity about what the book's about. The book's going to be used in a context in which it's being sent or placed in front of people who have to deal with mold. So it's not like the author's going on on a weekend news show and trying to introduce the idea that mold might be an issue to people. It's not. No one's ever heard of it before. So you're trying to enlighten people as to what it is. People know what it is, most people are scared. They're concerned that it's going to be either kill them or be very expensive. So having the book that starts to bridge that gap to this is a manageable, actionable thing that you can do. Here's a copy of the book and, by the way, whenever you're ready, I'm here to help you. That's exactly what we're trying to achieve with the project here 100, yeah, right on track, yeah, okay. \n\nWell, we are time crunched. \n\nToday I need to get to another meeting, but I really want to put put this out there, because that email that fail into the sunset example of someone well-meaning but just slightly yeah, exactly just slightly missing the mark and I think I'd close that linkedin post and I'll close here with a similar thing. Time is your friend in this regard. So writing something first but then being able to put it down for an hour a day a week and then come back to it and revisit it which is part of our process as well, the book writing process we give everyone the opportunity to get their first version of it and then make whatever changes they want to it. That's always included, but in terms, your friend, in that when you come back to it with a fresh set of eyes, they're not going to be as fresh as godwin's only seeing it from that isolated perspective. But still, you'll quite often catch things where you don't quite mean what you've written and that opportunity just to tweak it and improve it a little bit really can be a difference maker. \n\nSo that's true all righty well, thank you for your time. I am going to dive out to this next call. I'll leave a link to the book blueprint scorecards in the notes here, so if you don't have a copy of it yet, it's a free download. So go and grab a copy. And then the first um. The second and third chapter is really talking about this idea of a title that that gets people to say I want that, and a subheading that amplifies it and compels them to move forward. So definitely worth worth reading and getting some more pointers on tools and subtitles very good cool. \n\nThank you, Betsey, thanks everyone for listening and we will catch you in the next one be good, take care. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, Betsey and I discuss the unexpected longevity business owners can experience through book publishing. We share client success stories of doors kept open years later through meaningful connections fostered. Betsey emphasizes genuinely engaging audiences to elevate your expertise.
\n\nOur conversation also reveals the personalized approach we take with each author. While some thrive on meticulous planning, others appreciate creative freedom - our process caters to everyones needs.
\n\nWe talk about book titles and first impressions. We explore choosing impactful words through various lens and learning from others' input. Betsy draws parallels to historical warning systems and titles' role signaling treasures within.
\n\nOverall, our discussion illuminated tangible ways publishing can continuously attract opportunities through meaningful human connections and insight-sharing, not just short-term sales metrics.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/162
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nBetsey: I'm great, stuart. Good to be here with you.
\n\nStuart: I know it's been a little while we used to do every week. But I hope people don't think that you're replaced by other guests, but we just figured collectively.
\n\nBetsey: Oh, we've got some really great guests though, so you know I love to hear what the guests are saying and listen to those podcasts, you know more than listening to myself well, definitely about time that we were back on talking about things, because it gives us the opportunity just to tap through a few ideas for people who aren't familiar.
\n\nStuart: You're obviously running the book business for us day-to-day, so dealing with a lot of clients and potential clients, so run through a lot of those common questions. So good to chat about some of that. And then I made a post yesterday on LinkedIn, so I thought we'd give an opportunity to dive into that a little bit deeper as well.
\n\nBetsey: Sounds good.
\n\nStuart: Okay, so let's start with clients, I guess quickly.
\n\nSo one of the things that's been super interesting I might title this episode Lessons Learned from LinkedIn, because we've put a little bit more focus on that recently than perhaps we have done in the past few years.
\n\nSo one of the things that came up as I've been connecting with past clients, I was a little bit sporadic with making those connections as we were going along. So doing a bit of a job of catching up with people now and the thing that's been a real, I want to say, surprise is not only a surprise but maybe unexpected is the positive feedback. So, as I'm connected with clients who were there from maybe three, four, five years ago, I'm asking them how's it going with the book? And the response has been really quite interesting and there's quite a broad. We're going to have some people as guests in the future. There's quite a broad set of ways that people are using the books and want to remove to a certain degree compared with you. But that feedback if people really talking about how they're using them and the way that they're being received do you hear, hear that?
\n\nBetsey: Yeah, you know, that is such a I think the universe has a world, a way of sending those nice comments just when you need them. So if you're having a frustrated day, I'll just let the nice comment from a client who's just finished their book, you know, or you know somebody who shares hey, this is what I'm doing with the book and it's funny. We've talked about this in the past and we can talk about it again. People say, oh, I'm not selling as many books on Amazon as I thought I would, which is exactly what we tell them when they want to put it on Amazon. But wow, you know they're getting a lot of response. People are either downloading it or asking for it and you know, it's turning into real business for these individuals. So you know, yeah, selling your book on Amazon is great and it's, you know, impressive you know.
\n\nBut really the goal is exactly that to, you know, reach people so they raise their hand so that they do business with you, and that's where the financial value is, and so we're a lot, you know. So that is really, you know, a positive thing. People don't know what they're doing when it comes to writing a book, so they're pleasantly surprised with how simple our process is. We get that a lot Like we're just easy and not to toot our own horn by any means, but we are a small team and we have, you know, so there's a. We're very personal. So, you know, I'm getting text messages and phone calls, you know. So we, I think we bring that advantage, and so I think the client really feels that personal customer service touch, you know. So it's positive to hear. So, you know, people use it in different ways Some free, do free downloads, some give them away at events, some, you know, charge a little bit for them, but the end result seems to be the same are having great success with their books it's that.
\n\nStuart: It's funny, isn't it? The whole kind of bestseller bs type approach that we have? Is that so going into the project thinking that's the only option, that you're going to do it and then sit back and wait for the new york times to bring their award around to your front door, when the there's such a small use case where that's valid, and then it it's such an expensive and time consuming route. For the majority of us who are running real world businesses where we want to get in front of the 100,000 people within 50 miles of where the office is, it's a real different take. I had a comment come back. Someone put a LinkedIn note saying that they wrote their book first and then they'd referred us to a business partner and the comment was along the lines of hey, I'm. I'm more of a implementer type, interested in the process and the details a little bit like my personality, and the process worked very well for me. And then the person that I referred across is a very kind of visionary. If you're familiar with the Eos type language, visionary person rather than an implemented person is a little bit more scattered and a little bit more high level and less in tune with the details, but the process worked equally well for them as well, and they were just as pleased with the outcome. So, yeah, it's, it's nice to see that we're doing something right and it's resonating with the people we can help. Okay, so linkedin.
\n\nI put a post out a couple of days ago and titled it words are important, and I think this is worth talking about, because the same applies whether it's an email, which was the example that we'll talk about, or a book title, or a blog post or a letter, any way of communicating with people.
\n\nIt's this idea that words are important and they actually mean something different. So the email that I received was from the Robert Kennedy campaign, but I'd signed up for something at some point and that's why I'm on the list, so got nothing to do the politics of the candidate I'm actually somewhat of a fan of the candidates, but the email that got sent out said the subject was the subject was bail into the sunset with rfk. Now, given that this person's a third party candidate and the media narrative is that third party candidates have an impossible job every point, now, with the republican candidates all dropping out the Democratic candidates I mean there were very few other candidates anyway and other people apart from the two primary nominees. The narrative is that these people are dropping out. Then an email titled Hill into the Sunset is a little bit of a liminal message that, hey, this is over now I'm off and good luck.
\n\nI'll see you later yeah, absolutely the purpose of the purpose of the message was a fundraising thing and it was actually some invitation to go on a sunset cruise, on like a donors type boat ride, whatever, the whatever they call it. As you can tell from the accent, I'm not that up on American politics completely, or not in the history at least. So, the language being important, given that there's an underlying narrative of hey, it's only a matter of time before this person has to drop out because it becomes unviable, it was just such a clear smack in the face of hey, what you actually mean here isn't what you're saying. As an example, it takes two seconds of thinking about it and I don't want to pick on this particular whoever wrote this email because, hey, I've sent out a whole load of stuff and looked back at it later and realized it wasn't quite what I meant. But hopefully this is an example for everyone to think about the words that they say.
\n\nParticularly obviously we're talking about book titles or subheadings, which is the thing in front of people as you present your book out there. But the Sailing to the Sunset with RFK has a very different vibe to the message. That is Setting Sail with RFK. I mean even changing those words setting sail has such a positive connotation to it. Absolutely, it opens up possibilities and potential setting sail to new horizons, which actually is also 100% on brand with the candidate. I mean, that's what he's trying to be there as the difference maker between the incumbent systems. So I thought it was worth just diving into a little bit and this idea of of wording important and they mean something and it's worth taking two seconds to put it to one side and come back and look at it again. Right, in terms of people that you're talking to and titles that people come up with, do you hear any? Is there any like common thread of people making title mistakes or things that they want to do that perhaps we advise against?
\n\nBetsey: you know, I think people that everybody knows their content, like they know truly what they want to put in the book and they have all that like in their mind. But the title is something that people really maybe not the title so much, but the subtitle. You know that I tend we tend to struggle with a little bit and it's sometimes it's it can be very. You just put a book up that says focus, focus. What does that mean? You know? I mean there's nothing. So you need, you know, some sort of, you know some sort of subtitle that says what this book is actually about, because the reality of it you're going to take, you know, I'm not interested in that, I don't know what it's about. You know, whereas saying focused, how to you know, focus your dollars so you have a great retirement, that's a bad example, but whatever, you know like saying just knowing what, that's a bad example.
\n\nBut whatever you know, like saying just knowing what, okay, great, this tells me something. So I think we struggle a little bit with that and some people will tend to question a lot and sometimes some things don't make sense and you know we have to sort of I tend to pull, you know, ask your opinion, dean's opinion. Nobody else really wants to. They're like just doing their job so they don't get excited about it. Like you know wants to.
\n\nStuart: They're like just doing their job, so they don't get excited about it like you know, like I would sometimes.
\n\nBetsey: You know, yeah, exactly god, when our designer he does, and he always. We have side conversations a lot you know about. I really don't think this would be a better subtitle. So we do that you know a lot and we'll kind of what's interesting?
\n\nStuart: what's interesting about god's take on it is because he's coming from a design perspective. He's got such a narrow focus on just the cover so it doesn't have the context of the rest of the book. He hasn't worked through the outline. He hasn't, isn't at the front cover stage, at least isn't looking at the call to action. It's more hey, the only information I've got is what's presented here. So it's a really interesting take because from a receiver's point of view, a potential customer that's on linkedin and sees an ad for their book, scroll by. That's all they've got as well. So goblin's, almost the canary in the coal mine, if I'm not sure whether that does that same translate from uk to american I don't think so.
\n\nBetsey: Canary in the coal mine no.
\n\nStuart: So they say I wonder if how many people listening, whether it means anything. So canary in the coal mine is a saying, for it's an early warning, like it's an indicator of something might be wrong and it comes. This is going to be one of those historic things that I used to question in 2024. Is that really what happens? So canaries, like like the little birds, canaries used to be taken live down coal mines because they were very susceptible to methane gas. So if you were down the mine with your canary and your canary died, that was a sign that you needed to get out there. So yeah, canary in the coal mine it's a thing, for it's an early warning that's great.
\n\nBetsey: Now see, I mean I should. I have coal mining family, like my mom's, west virginia. Her family's all mad.
\n\nStuart: Okay, yeah, maybe something that you know she made, yeah ask him and then report back on the next podcast and we'll see where other people know.
\n\nBetsey: Yeah, like god he doesn't, unless he has more you know, unless for some reason he happens to get on a call. Sometimes he it really is kind of like a crapshoot, if you will you know with what he's doing, especially when you have such a vague title or subtype, particular title yeah yeah.
\n\nStuart: So I think, tying that back to the job of work that we're trying to do, it is those one word titles became very kind of a couple of years ago for bestseller those types of books, and I think in that context, so if you've got, if you've got a book like clarity game, like he was, Jamie.
\n\nSmart. Yeah, I'm thinking of Clarity, the book that we wrote. He was the okay. This turned into a terrible example, the best-selling book there's something like Clarity, by someone who I can't quite remember, but it was a bestseller a couple of years ago.
\n\nThat title. There's a lot of marketing effort put behind the fact that that title resonates. So it's a name it and claim it type title because the person's name is on the tip of my brain but it's fallen the wrong way, not out of my mouth anyway. That title has got a lot of marketing push behind the fact that it gets traction and people know what it means. It's like a company name. If you called your company google now it makes perfect sense, but for many years and any dollars that doesn't make any sense. And if you had a shop front that was just called Google, as people drive past they're not exactly going to get a lot of insights into what you do. So having that explicit, explicit does what it says on the tin type title is just way more effective as we're working with people, to start conversations with real clients.
\n\nThe subheading actually. If people don't have a copy, they should get a copy of the book. Blueprint scorecard. I'll stick a link for it in the podcast notes. But the title that stops people in the track and makes people say I want that is one of the key, one of the eight building blocks we talk about. And then the amplifying subheading something that builds on the message of the key one of the eight building blocks that we talk about. And then the amplifying subheading, something that builds on the message of the title and amplifies it, not adds confusion by bringing in a relevant subject, irrelevant talking points or isn't. We're not trying to keyword stuff all of the different possible terms that you can just throw into a subheading rather than a title. Those two things it really does act like the headline and the subheading rather than a title. Those two things. It really does act like the headline and the subheading on a, on an ad, and that's a pretty clear way of thinking about it, this idea of the language being clear.
\n\nI think the other element that it triggers or touches upon is context. So, just as we were talking about, a bestseller type traditional book has a lot of advertising dollars behind it in order for it to be clear. It's being sold from bookshop bookstore shelves. So the ability for someone to go in and actively seek that book. If it had a very long title, there might be more cases where someone doesn't find what they're looking for because it's not as easy to remember. If someone's talking about it to a friend, then a short, one word title which is named and has a lot of advertising dollars behind it might resonate. It's sticking people's minds more than if there was a longer title.
\n\nBut the context in which we're using books and most people listening are going to use books is it's in an ad on LinkedIn or Facebook. We're trying to stop people in their day-to-day activity and make them say I want that and hold their hand and raise their hand. Rather, it might be at a conference where you're talking about a particular subject and you're giving a copy to people. It might be as people walk in through the door. They're coming to ask you about a certain framework or methodology or service that you provide and you give them a copy of the book as a amplifying part of the closing process.
\n\nBut again, that reinforces the, the problem statement, the issue that they came in with. Or you might be using it as referrals and asking existing clients if they hear of anyone talking about a similar problem. Let me know and I'll give you the copy of the book to help your friend or family member. All of those scenarios. You're being responsible for initiating that conversation with the other person. They're not going out and looking for it it so I think that's another key difference between the context and the way in which traditional books are discovered. This is the way conversation starting books are discovered. It's much more on a path that we control and we initiate, as opposed to something where we're hoping that someone will remember the title so that when they're in a bookstore or when they're on amazon, they'll have enough muscle memory to key in the things that we hope that they'll find oh, yeah, very good it's um well it was just real fast.
\n\nBetsey: This popped up in my head. Um, just I was talking to dean and he asked me if we'd heard about. We had a titles workshop recently and this gentleman has written a book about mold specific black mold, you know, in homes and businesses and stuff and his title is mold doesn't have to be a scary subject. And he said do you think I need to change my title? And I said absolutely not. Like it's exact. I mean that is exactly what you want people to know. It's exactly. I mean I've read the content. That's exactly what the content is. This is perfect. Like do not second guess, you know your title. So he just happened to pop up and it triggered my memory to think about him saying that I mean it says everything plain and simple, you know.
\n\nStuart: It doesn't have to put a picture of.
\n\nBetsey: Black Malt in front of his book or anything you know.
\n\nStuart: I mold in front of his book or anything. You know I mean words are enough. You know we were doing some ad testing on a call in the. In this thursday this week I was on a call where we were running through some ad tests and there's an image that goes along with every ad. So there was a subset of those ads that were the disturbing looking images and we were trying to. The copy was the same on all of them so we were seeing the response rate between, kind of like, friendly images and disturbing images. The disturbing images were slightly higher than the friendly images, which is interesting.
\n\nIt's always interesting and it goes to show that right and it goes to show the your own personal bias against things. Just let the data tell you what the result is. You shouldn't go in with too much of a. You've got to go in with a wreck and an opinion to begin with, but let the real world feedback steer you in the right direction. I'm always resistant I think I'm always resistant to those types of images because it reminds me of those crappy adwords, ads or ad network ads you see on the bottom of some sites that have just got the worst looking pictures and seems to be like the real quick bait end of the market. But yeah, the I mean the numbers are the numbers I was going to say on that, that title and taking that as an example.
\n\nThere's no ambiguity about what the book's about. The book's going to be used in a context in which it's being sent or placed in front of people who have to deal with mold. So it's not like the author's going on on a weekend news show and trying to introduce the idea that mold might be an issue to people. It's not. No one's ever heard of it before. So you're trying to enlighten people as to what it is. People know what it is, most people are scared. They're concerned that it's going to be either kill them or be very expensive. So having the book that starts to bridge that gap to this is a manageable, actionable thing that you can do. Here's a copy of the book and, by the way, whenever you're ready, I'm here to help you. That's exactly what we're trying to achieve with the project here 100, yeah, right on track, yeah, okay.
\n\nWell, we are time crunched.
\n\nToday I need to get to another meeting, but I really want to put put this out there, because that email that fail into the sunset example of someone well-meaning but just slightly yeah, exactly just slightly missing the mark and I think I'd close that linkedin post and I'll close here with a similar thing. Time is your friend in this regard. So writing something first but then being able to put it down for an hour a day a week and then come back to it and revisit it which is part of our process as well, the book writing process we give everyone the opportunity to get their first version of it and then make whatever changes they want to it. That's always included, but in terms, your friend, in that when you come back to it with a fresh set of eyes, they're not going to be as fresh as godwin's only seeing it from that isolated perspective. But still, you'll quite often catch things where you don't quite mean what you've written and that opportunity just to tweak it and improve it a little bit really can be a difference maker.
\n\nSo that's true all righty well, thank you for your time. I am going to dive out to this next call. I'll leave a link to the book blueprint scorecards in the notes here, so if you don't have a copy of it yet, it's a free download. So go and grab a copy. And then the first um. The second and third chapter is really talking about this idea of a title that that gets people to say I want that, and a subheading that amplifies it and compels them to move forward. So definitely worth worth reading and getting some more pointers on tools and subtitles very good cool.
\n\nThank you, Betsey, thanks everyone for listening and we will catch you in the next one be good, take care.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, Betsey and I discuss the unexpected longevity business owners can experience through book publishing. We share client success stories of doors kept open years later through meaningful connections fostered. Betsey emphasizes genuinely engaging audiences to elevate your expertise. \r\n\r\nOur conversation also reveals the personalized approach we take with each author. While some thrive on meticulous planning, others appreciate creative freedom - our process caters to everyones needs.\r\n\r\nWe talk about book titles and first impressions. We explore choosing impactful words through various lens and learning from others' input. Betsy draws parallels to historical warning systems and titles' role signaling treasures within. \r\n\r\nOverall, our discussion illuminated tangible ways publishing can continuously attract opportunities through meaningful human connections and insight-sharing, not just short-term sales metrics.\r\n","date_published":"2024-03-31T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/c018ef57-f833-47f0-8a7a-a62045619c22.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":15557891,"duration_in_seconds":1286}]},{"id":"96ed1d25-f0a4-4888-abd3-e2b1e5c9726c","title":"Ep161: Unlocking the secrets to wealth with Chuck DeLadurantey","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/161","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More show, we're talking with Chuck DeLadurantey, financial advisor, private family banking expert based in South Texas, and author of Protect Your Money Now. \n\nHis business is not unique; other people are doing similar work, but his approach and work style are unique to him.\n\nWe spoke about the opportunity to differentiate yourself in a crowded market, and Chuck shared his focus on strategies for building generational wealth, debt elimination, and retirement planning. \n\nChuck also stresses the importance of truly understanding what clients want and need and building trust through real conversations—conversations that start with his book.\n\nHe has some great insights into how writing books and using social media can help you connect with people while amplifying your expertise.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Chuck discusses his journey in financial coaching and private banking, highlighting the importance of targeting a specific market for business growth.\n We delve into strategies for intergenerational wealth management and the significance of creating a stable financial foundation for young families.\n The episode emphasizes the role of modified snowball techniques for debt reduction and the importance of safeguards for retirement plans against market volatility.\n We explore the synergy between authorship, a strong social media presence, and the ability to build trust through storytelling to foster client relationships.\n Chuck shares how writing a book served as a contextual tool for his services and how it has contributed to a fivefold revenue increase.\n We discuss the modified approach to client acquisition and engagement, including the strategic placement of ads and the effectiveness of offering a free book to gather emails for follow-ups.\n A personal anecdote highlights the unpredictability of marketing channels and the potential for significant deals arising from varied outreach methods.\n The conversation covers the educational process for clients, acknowledging that while they may understand their financial problems, they often lack knowledge of the solutions.\n Chuck emphasizes the importance of passion in any field, sharing his belief that excitement about one's work is key to maintaining momentum and success.\n We touch on the art of questioning to deepen client engagement and the potential for future work centered around this skill.\n\n\nLINKS\nChuck DeLadurantey - LinkedIn\nPrivate Family Banking\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/161\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\nEPISODE CHAPTERS\n\n(0:00:01) - Unique Approach to Private Family Banking\n(0:08:11) - Multi-Generational Wealth and Financial Planning\n(0:11:37) - Building Trust Through Conversations\n(0:21:35) - Financial Education and Client Engagement\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Charles. I was just reading the background. I know you as Chuck Chuck. \n\nChuck: Yes, chuck is great. Yeah, yeah, chuck works. \n\nStuart: It's one of those things that I was looking at the screen, the background, I kind of saw the word and read the word instead of the word that was in my head, which is always a problem on the podcast. \n\nWe know each other from a little bit from before you started writing a book. We had a couple of conversations before then, obviously, we were able to help you go through the process and now that's wrapping up. What I really thought would be a great opportunity would be to share your story with people so kind of the business that you're in. It's not a unique business in the sense of there are other people doing similar things, but I think your approach is pretty unique. So I think that's going to be quite interesting, both for the listeners and also if not specifically about the subject more about them as business owners thinking about their unique approach, because I think oftentimes we tend to think of things that have always been talked about in the past or other people are talking about this. So what do I have to say? That's unique and your perspective is pretty unique. So, with that being said, when we start off with the background and share with everyone kind of who you are and the business that you're in, Okay, great, well, thanks. \n\nChuck: I'm saying hello from sunny South Texas post Christmas 2023, loving it, having some time off and spending time with family, and we spend time with family. We get thinking about you know what's the future look like. So a lot of what I do with people is try to you know, if you can't describe your future self, you won't have very do a very good job of goal setting. Whether that be financially, whether it be you know what you're doing for a living, and so I think that's the major you know framework is sort of that vision of who you want to become, or what you want to become as a family or in your career or whatever, and so I particularly drill down on the financial part of it. But of course, that also involves for many career or business development, and so we talked to. \n\nI do some coaching with small business owners and then I show them how to use the tools and techniques we do on the private banking side. But just a little bit of quick history. So I'm a little bit further down the road of life. I'm what would be traditionally known as retirement age, but that ain't going to happen. \n\nNot only just financially. I like a nice lifestyle, so to do that, you have to have cash flowing assets, you have to have something going on. I have a number of businesses that keep me busy at the level that I want to be, but I didn't get here overnight and so to tell you that I knew how all this was going to map out no, I didn't know it was going to turn out this way. The Lord has opened a lot of doors and provided provision and zeal for new things for me personally. So I think, no matter what you do, no matter what business you're in, you've really got to take a self assessment first. \n\nYou know who am I, what are my skills and gifts, what makes me tick, and you know, I think a lot of people get burned out of that. I want to be passionate about what I do. You know you can be passionate about most anything if you can get the focus around it and you start to align your God given gifts, your talents, from education or from skill building or whatever. I mean. A good, excited plumber would be a great thing to have, right. \n\nWhen the guy comes to your house, if he's dressed up in a three piece suit and he's got a very clean wrench in his hand, you might look at him and say I don't know if this guy's quite aligning himself with his trade, but a very courteous guy that maybe protects your wife's carpet from dirt and is well cleaned and has a uniform with a name on it. \n\nYou know that might be a good idea for the plumber coming to your house. The same thing with anything. That's how we present, it's how we come at it. The book I wrote was a real supplement to the work that I'd already been doing and I was starting marketing back to sort of the back to your business owner and your book writer focus for the theme of the podcast. You know, what I found is that I needed to market to a slimmer, more focused market channel. Right, I needed to very identify for the lack of a better term my avatar, right, who was I really trying to get to? And once I did that, my revenue went up 5x immediately in the first year and the book was just a way to introduce people. I give it away a lot. I have a PDF copy I give away and it sets the context, because what I do with private family banking it's not an open and shut, you know. It's a customized fit for every person and the ideas are counterintuitive, they don't just jump off the page. \n\nSo, back to you, stuart. I hope that was a good entree for where we wanted to go today. \n\nStuart: Yeah, absolutely. I think it sets that scene, the idea of being specific in the target market so that you know who you're talking to and can talk to them in a way that kind of aligns and uses the right examples and talks about the right, comes at it from the right positioning, both in terms of where they want to go and where they are in their journey currently. So I think the idea of picking that single target market although it seems like scarcity and you're excluding some people to begin with, if you think about it from a campaign perspective, from a marketing campaign perspective, it's not the return of the way other people if they knock on the door or other people who identify themselves as interested, but in terms of you having 100 units of energy a month to do outreach to a specific group. Tailoring that 100 units of energy is far more effective than a scattergun approach of trying to be everything to everyone. \n\nAbsolutely Go ahead I was just going to say. You mentioned that the ideas of private family banking is perhaps something that people have heard of, but the customized solutions for each person are very individualized and I think that's similar. It's a similar conversation that we have with people as they think about writing a book for their audience. Well, my solutions it's not one size fits all thing. Every person is different, but at some level there is a commonality. So how did you go about picking the right elements to kind of do that initial engagement with people? Obviously, the end solution is individual, but there is that commonality at an information level. \n\nChuck: You know it's very interesting. That's a great question. I would parallel or make an analogy of this too. I used to own a VRBO property vacation rental by owner back in the day with before VRBO and all the internet and Airbnb's are what they are today. This is 20, some years ago and so I did a lot of marketing, and what happened in that scenario I will align to what I'm doing today. With private family banking, we hit the market just right post 9 11. The people wanted to rally as families, and so I had a very large place on a river. It was a beautiful spot, waterfall out front and the park for the kids next door was idealic. And but what hit? That place was so large that an individual couple, or maybe a couple with one or two children, probably wouldn't rent it. So we needed big groups. So what? We found? That multi families would come and rent our place for a week. They'd get away. It was off the grid, if you will kind of speak, off the internet. \n\nI mean, we had power, but you know, there was internet was terrible, which people loved because they wanted to detach, you know. So I aligned what I'm doing with private family banking with. The time has come now, post COVID, the money situation, the banking failures, the economy, you know, do I do Bitcoin? Do I do this? What do I do with my cash? Is the dollar going to be digitized? Is a dollar going to fall as the reserve currency of the world? On and on. \n\nSo so I didn't strike out to drum up more fear, but I knew fear is, you know, you know, the fear of failure or the hope of gain, or to the motivating factors for anything in life. And people are fearful, they're concerned, they're a bit confused, and so I think what I brought to it is a discussion about hey, let's talk about you and your family. So I do have clients ranging from 18 years old all the way to 75, but the core group of my clients are probably young couples with a couple of children on up, from maybe early the late 20s to maybe mid 40s. That's clear, the prime area. And these are people that are thinking family, they're thinking multi generational how do I pass wealth on? How am I going to set my children up for success? So it just really hit a chord and I came out with that starting last April. \n\nSo it's been less than a year to where I started to really market and I wrote the book and got it published I think in May, probably June and it's just been a great supplement to push in the message of multi generational thinking and saving instead of spending and going into more and more consumer debt. And we address those things to. We help people get out of debt faster. So I kind of use the debt snowball technique a little variation on it, though a more powerful one, I would say and we also meet people right where they are. They're getting ready for retirement or they're concerned about losing, because you figure out the math is kind of easy when you think about it If you have a 401k. By the way, the government created a tax problem and then they created the solution with tax qualified plans, right. \n\nSo, really kind of interesting the way that works. But nonetheless, when you put money in a tax protector, tax deferred plan, eventually you're going to pay the piper. Plus, you're subjecting that money to market volatility and we think the market's probably going to take a big turn here, maybe depending on the election. Probably as well either way, maybe, and not to speak politics, but it certainly is a fact in the marketplace. But what what we say is that let's get you some protection, let's get you a guaranteed win, a base platform where you always win and you're in control of your cash and you get some bonuses like dividends and things like that, and you get the month we call the money multiplier effect, so that that if in a 401k that volatility, if you lose 40%, which a lot of people did during COVID or the 08 crash, it takes 100% improvement to get that bet back to zero. \n\nAnd you know you're not going to get a 10 or 15% return year after year in the stock market, unless you're an insider and you're, you know, hoping not to go to jail, I guess. \n\nStuart: But so that's the interesting point that bridge from Pete things that people know and have some degree of understanding and comfort around. A lot of people are probably well aware of the idea of getting out of consumer debt and how expensive that is. They might be aware of the snowball ideas. They might be aware of their various retirement opportunities. So bridging that into the concern that people have got around and increasing awareness of things aren't the same anymore that they were right, it's the great way of starting that conversation into something that's ultimately somewhat more complicated or requires some support, like private family banking, but yeah. \n\nChuck: I would say back to your other right before. The other question that you asked is what it is is about starting a conversation. If I could have any pointers to the people in your crowd, if you will, it's quit, quit marketing and start a conversation and make an offering. You know it sales comes before market marketing. If you don't make an offer of to somebody, you're not giving them any, you're just giving them more noise, right? People have so much stuff coming at them and so my target market. I was able, through just a situation of how I knew these people and how to market to them through other channels or sell to them. I put forth a proposition. In my ads and my email boxes, my calendar gets booked out. I mean I have 20 to 25 appointments. I have a great close rate, even the person that's in the most difficult situation. I'd write an article every week or more. I get it out on Instagram and you, my daughter, does on my social media. Thank God, because I have no clue how to do that. \n\nBut if you can get somebody to help you with social media, you write the content. But don't worry about knowing it all. Don't try to be all things to all people. I guess that's a key message. \n\nStuart: It's starting the conversation. We refer to the book as conversational starting books. It sounds like a difference from traditional books and I talk a lot about the product of the book not being a book sale. But the product is a conversation with someone who's likely to become a client. Because for all of us listening here, that's the real difference maker. We're not authors, we're not going to make a, we're not even really looking for speaking careers. For the most part it's introducing the idea to someone who's likely to most likely to become a client at some point further down the track. So that conversation starting element is something that we hammer home with people all the time. \n\nChuck: Well, you know, and me, like many other people have always talked about writing a book, right? \n\nStuart: And even. \n\nChuck: I mean, I did my doctoral work. I got all but dissertation. So I'm a doctor, abd all but dissertation. And the reason is you get stuck, you get writer's cramp, you can't think of something you're excited enough about to write a book on, and so for me, this book was not only very natural, but your process was so facilitated that you know and I think you talk about it in that other podcast how do you keep it going? How do you set achievable goals? Well, you know what? Don't? You have to do that with your business. So just apply that good discipline and it's just another piece of your work. \n\nBut I can't say enough about and I mean people. Just, it is a credibility thing. I mean not to say your book should be well written, I think it should. You know, if you're using it to educate people on what you're offering, you have to do the due diligence, you have to do the hard work. But getting it out there is so key, and getting it in people's hands that I find that plus, I put a lot of my story about my life in there and again. \n\nI'm in the classical above retirement age bracket, but I'm not a classical common kind of guy. I'm still popping it out and I'm more energized now. \n\nI just turned 70. I am more energized now than I was 10 years ago and it's because of focus, it's because being excited and helping people it's a ministry, you know. It's about reaching the core of somebody and even if you're only making a small profit, it's so exciting to know that you help somebody. I think if you do that and you get away from your you know beeline to, you know wanting the three vacations to Aruba, and just do the work, you know, maybe those vacations will come, maybe they won't, but you're going to get more out of your life and you're. You won't have to sell your enthusiasm, your love for people and the desire to close a gap. I mean, I guess that's the way I'm made. I was a consultant for 20 years, freelancing and did a lot of work with clients, ceos all over the country in healthcare space, but I never went in with a brochure. I never went in. I always looked at those people and got them to tell me what they were struggling with. \n\nYou know the old, find the pain and then scratch the itch or whatever you know, and so you giving a monogam of information is really not very effective. That's back to the conversation. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and the passion that you bring to it is the same whether we start off with a plumber example, or whether you're a vet. My brother's getting married in January. His wife is a surgical vet. He's a yacht broker. I can talk all day long about creating books. My wife's a kindergarten teacher. She can talk all day long about early childhood education and the approach that Waldorf takes, the schools that she works in. All of us are in business for ourselves. We specifically don't have traditional jobs because we are passionate about our subject and if we can share that one piece of information that really helps someone, whether or not we get paid for it, I think the majority of us are feeling good because we're, just as you say, out there helping people, and a book is a great way of starting that conversation in a non-threatening way, with a very clear call to action, and lead to an easy next step. \n\nChuck: I think another thing, stuart too, and you know this the real power in that conversational and relationship building. Right, you're building a relationship, you're trying to build trust early on. Without trust, you really got nothing. One guy told me there's three things. They want to trust you, they want to know that you're an expert and they want to know you know what if you're bringing in another company, like I do, to actually do the product, they want to trust that company. So all of those are trust related. But that doesn't happen. \n\nSo when you start talking to people, I think what you have to do is not only set them at ease, but use the power of questions and that could be my next book. You know I read a book years ago when I was consulting, called the Question Behind the Question. I don't even remember who the author was, but was a powerful idea that you know you ask a question, you need to think through what is behind your question, because you're trying to get to something, and when people start asking you questions, you also think that too. But just the power of asking a person to articulate you know where are you today. You know what are your hopes and dreams. You know what if you were to solve one or two problems, what would those look like? What would those be? Tell me a little bit about you Now. If you go too fast and you go too close, you go too deep, people are going to back off and you know just human nature, right, they're not going to. \n\nYou know you can't get into the deep, dark secrets of people's lives overnight, but when you're dealing with their finances that's a touchy area to begin with, and so you got to build that relationship through conversation. \n\nStuart: And, like you say, it's positioning it at the right level at the right time, understanding where you use in the book, in the funnel, what the call to action is the next step, what I sometimes refer to it, as I'm sure I heard this from someone else but relationship capital, like you can't ask, you need to ask the questions that are balanced against the level of relationship that you've got. I think particularly that, as you said, in your industry, where there is a lot of baggage and sensitivity around finances anyway, going in too hard, too deep is either going to make people feel uncomfortable or threatened or they've done something wrong. So if you can keep that conversation going until they're at this point of no like entrusting you enough to be able to dive into those deeper parts, it really is a good thing and it's interesting. \n\nChuck: I've had clients, you know, again, some of it seems to be magical. I mean, you never know right, but you get a client coming in and within 10 minutes they're telling you their life story. The best thing you can do is shut up and listen. And you know, give some body language. I used to zoom a lot. Zoom is so powerful, or whatever mechanism. You know video conferencing, but you know, if somebody to turn over $150,000 to you based on two meetings on zoom man, that's a pretty powerful message that you've done a good job of gaining their trust and explaining the mechanism and then showing them the pathway. \n\nAnd I get that. You know, at least once a month, a contract, if you will, an arrangement at that level or more, and so it is. It's very, very important and again, I try to you know another thing is language right, not the language of finance? If I tell you, well, we're going to arbitrage this rate, and then you know the net present value of futuristic, you know yada, yada, yada. Well, you've lost them on square one and sometimes many of us are too close to our own work to understand and the decoding that's necessary. So back to you. \n\nStuart: That's such a great point and it comes back to this conversational start and not making an assumption that either people know everything that we could possibly tell them or just because they've heard it before, that it's actually sunk in and it makes a difference. \n\nI was saying to someone a couple of weeks ago on a show that in my previous corporate life I used to work for the Financial Services Authority in the UK. So we would go out I was on the IT side, not on the regulation side but we would go out and do presentations in London to workplace. They was like employee education side of things and around finance, particularly although someone pointed out that doctors are the same around finance, particularly that use of like in-house language and just thrown out there because we have to deal with it day to day, we just don't even think about it, but the people receiving that the words mean nothing. So if you can bring people along on the journey using language that is familiar and doesn't sound daunting or scary, all make them feel like they're, that they're well stupid, for one of a better word for not understanding it, which is so far from the truth. Yeah, I really think it's about building that rapport and starting a conversation in a way that helps them. \n\nOne point I want to say. I asked you talk about running ads and making sure that you specifically ask the ask for a next step. Those ads that then lead to appointments, are they social media channels or are they print channels? Are they more asking people to schedule a meeting or are they related to the book? \n\nChuck: Yeah, so what I do? I run ads on very specific podcasts and YouTube channels. I've done my social media is just reels and stuff that go out on Instagram and I get some draw. I've done other podcasts like this. I did one with iHeart Radio that gets me some traction, that's broadcast nationally and all of those again, for the small entrepreneur they're basically quote unquote free. I mean, it's just your time. People are. People don't realize how much you and other people like me that run a podcast are looking for content, right, they're screaming for content. So they're not going to charge you. Maybe some will, but my ads are running. Their paid ads are running on YouTube and very specific podcast and address that audience that I'm targeting and I get mostly. I get now about 20% will book directly to my calendar off the ad, which is powerful. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nChuck: So what I do I grab that calendar invite and immediately send them a read ahead because I've got to have the read ahead so that we get a jumpstart on that zoom call. So they had the schedule is to schedule a zoom call. I send them a read ahead. If they send me an email, in my ads I have a link to a free book. They'll go out. Sometimes they get the book. Sometimes they just go out and look at my website. But I'll know they've been in there and I get their email. I've got mechanisms in place to get their email. Then I'll get back to them and about 30 or 30 or 40% of those will book a meeting. And then I've got people that will call me. So I put my phone number out there a number of times. \n\nOne of my great, most opportunistic opportunities opportunistic opportunities, one of my most a huge deal that I have in the work right now came from a phone call a guy gave me when I was on holiday in northern Maine, barely in cell phone range, and this guy calls me and we're still having a dialogue. It's too much to go into right now and I got an NDA so I can't say too much, but it's a big deal and that came from one ad from one place and one phone call. And it's just you definitely never know, you know. And then I get people who are just struggling and you know, guy with three kids and he's 32 and he doesn't have any money and but yet, you know, you rang up all this credit card that we can help them to. So I have a very wide range. \n\nI take all comers. I don't. I'm not, you know, I trust that this will all work out. I have you know volume is helpful and the more I calls I take the more volume. So back to your question. I get people. The offer is, you know, book a call or call me. I give them the ad copy I wrote and it's rich with language that hits people where they are and it I seem to get. That gets me lots of traction. So, but I'm in about four or five podcasts and a YouTube channel. \n\nYeah, my ad spend is ranges per month. You know so many dollars a month. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and when you said in that answer the fact that you never know the opportunities to be out there across multiple channels and even if you're hitting the same people at a different on a different day, there's that saying you never stand in the same river twice. It's really the fact of presenting multiple opportunities to be out there, in the understanding that you can never know exactly which day is going to be right for the person listening. But if you're there on the day that is right for them, then that's where the opportunity is to take it to the next step. Absolutely the. I've got a copy of the book title up here. \n\nChuck: Yeah, there you go, protect your money now. Yeah. \n\nStuart: And I love the hat as well. So keep on with the branding. That's right. You mentioned when we were talking about the audience that you were looking to dial in. If you had to pick that single target audience, and it's the people who have got some awareness that they need to do something. They might not know what they need to do, but there's all of these messages that they get from out there, so they're subheading in the book talks about protecting from upcoming financial financial meltdowns or banking meltdowns. The audience who comes to you how educated are they in terms of the solutions versus how interested are they in the problems? They've got an awareness that they need to do something different. Great question. \n\nChuck: They come to me knowing more about the problem than they do. My solution, our solution, and that's rightly so, because we're not mainstream or counter cultural, counterintuitive. But they grab on quickly because I have a method. I use physical movements, I have some graphics that I'll throw I just share a lot of screen but I don't throw a lot of numbers and they got a concept. But they come knowing that what they've done hasn't worked. \n\nNumber two, they know that if they got their money tied up in a 401k or a 403b or an IRA or even a Roth, they're going to pay taxes on the gains eventually All of our in our system. If you go by our rules, if you will how we train you, you're going to grow this tax free for the rest of your life. That's a huge advantage. People don't understand the decimating character of taxation on wealth, and so you could pass this along tax free to your heirs as well, but so they come knowing what didn't work, and so they're really already piqued to learn something new, and so that's why I use a very educational step by step process. \n\nStuart: I think that's a key point for anyone listening as well this idea that people have some understanding of some solutions, but not the full picture and almost certainly not specifically the way that you do it, but they've got quite a wide. It's the problems out there that are triggering them into taking some step, because the inertia that everyone's got of not making a change or just letting time go by, that's a powerful thing to overcome. So I think starting that conversation by highlighting what the problems are in presenting the idea of the solution really helps start that conversation and move it forwards. \n\nChuck: Right, and I think that two things happen in most of the people I get not only do they understand what they weren't doing, or what they didn't work is really more precisely it, but they're hesitant to try something new and they don't want to get desperate. The other people have already gone the full route of getting desperate and lost more money. And so those are the ones that say please help me. \n\nYou know because, they're just fed up because people. What happens is people feel they're getting taken advantage of or they're fear of missing out, fomo or whatever they do. Or my neighbor did this, or this guy told me that at the end of the day it doesn't work out for them. They're looking for sanity. They're looking for something structured and something that's more certain certainty. You know, a lack of uncertainty. You'll never close a sale when you have lack of uncertainty. That's a key, another key driver. You've got to get certainty in that person's mind, because that's what they're trying to overcome. They're so uncertain because they've been ripped off through. You know if you will not rip it off, but certainly affected by the market swings. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah. And once that fear comes in, like I said, the option of doing nothing is the easier option for most people. No one gets. No one gets sacked for buying IBM or whatever that ad used to be. No one gets. It's never their fault if they do nothing and the circumstances change around them. But also they're not going to get the benefits of that if you just sit there and hope that something's going to change. \n\nChuck: Absolutely. \n\nStuart: The term always goes quick on these shows. I want to make sure that we give people a chance to follow up and find out more about you and the book and what you're doing. So if people are watching along on video, there's your background is fantastic because it's got the contact details straight away. But for those listening, where's a good place to follow up and find out more about you? \n\nChuck: Yeah, the best thing to do is send me an email. Chuckchuk at private family, chuck at private family banking dot com. That'll get me an email. Send me an email and then I'll send you a calendar invite. I'll send you a free ebook to read and some other resources. I've got a free e course that I just finished. It's brief, about 20 minutes, but it'll really take everything we talked about briefly today and I didn't get dived down and obviously into the detail. I know that's not necessarily the purpose of our podcast, but I love it. I love what we talked about today and I believe in it. I mean, I can tell you getting the book done was a big deal emotionally for me, because it took one of those burdens off right, and so do the book man, do the book. \n\nStuart: And now that you've got it, it almost frees up that brain space to look for all those opportunities to use it. Often say that once that asset is created the use cases even if you go into the project with some good ideas, the use cases down the track is just an idea of what you can do and so on the track, it's just an opportunity. It's something else to advance the conversation and reinforce the authority time after time whenever the opportunity arises. But that only comes from having it complete. \n\nChuck: Absolutely. \n\nStuart: One quick one just before we wrap up. I don't want to go off on another tangent, but couldn't help but ask. You mentioned the online course, the email course that's just finished. Is that related to the book or is that on a complimentary subject? \n\nChuck: It's on this subject, how to. It's a how to what this is and then how it works. Right, and that's private family banking yeah. \n\nStuart: That's such a fantastic opportunity to advance that conversation even further. So, from the top of the funnel, people have a problem. Here's a broad manifesto of a solution down to okay, here's some practical steps you can take if you're not quite ready to jump on a call yet. Yeah, fantastic, yeah, perfect. Well, again, thanks for your time, and particularly thanks for your time in between Christmas and New Year. Here will release this in a couple of weeks or just be into the new year. So, as anyone's kind of recovering from Christmas and thinking about doing something about their finances as January gets going, this hopefully will hit at the right time for them. And the email address the way to get in touch with you will make sure that it's in the show notes. So if people are watching on the website or on a podcast player, then I can send you a link to. \n\nChuck: on my calendar, I can send you a link or, if you want, to put that in a show notes to oh perfect, yeah, we'll do that. \n\nStuart: Yeah, make it even easier for people. So anyone who's listened to this and is interested in find out more, just check out the show notes and we'll put a link straight to Chuck's calendar and that. \n\nChuck: Excellent. \n\nStuart: Fantastic, Chuck. Thank you so much. Looking forward to checking in with you again in 2024. See how things are going. \n\nChuck: Thank you, my friend. It's been a blessing to get to know you and your team, and they've been excellent, always on top of things, so I can't give you enough accolades there. It's been great. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Appreciate it Always good to hear good stories like that. Thanks for listening as well. He's wishing you a great new year or hope you had a great new year when this goes live and we will catch you all in the next one. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More show, we're talking with Chuck DeLadurantey, financial advisor, private family banking expert based in South Texas, and author of Protect Your Money Now.
\n\nHis business is not unique; other people are doing similar work, but his approach and work style are unique to him.
\n\nWe spoke about the opportunity to differentiate yourself in a crowded market, and Chuck shared his focus on strategies for building generational wealth, debt elimination, and retirement planning.
\n\nChuck also stresses the importance of truly understanding what clients want and need and building trust through real conversations—conversations that start with his book.
\n\nHe has some great insights into how writing books and using social media can help you connect with people while amplifying your expertise.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nLINKS
\nChuck DeLadurantey - LinkedIn
\nPrivate Family Banking
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/161
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
EPISODE CHAPTERS
\n\n(0:00:01) - Unique Approach to Private Family Banking
\n(0:08:11) - Multi-Generational Wealth and Financial Planning
\n(0:11:37) - Building Trust Through Conversations
\n(0:21:35) - Financial Education and Client Engagement
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Charles. I was just reading the background. I know you as Chuck Chuck.
\n\nChuck: Yes, chuck is great. Yeah, yeah, chuck works.
\n\nStuart: It's one of those things that I was looking at the screen, the background, I kind of saw the word and read the word instead of the word that was in my head, which is always a problem on the podcast.
\n\nWe know each other from a little bit from before you started writing a book. We had a couple of conversations before then, obviously, we were able to help you go through the process and now that's wrapping up. What I really thought would be a great opportunity would be to share your story with people so kind of the business that you're in. It's not a unique business in the sense of there are other people doing similar things, but I think your approach is pretty unique. So I think that's going to be quite interesting, both for the listeners and also if not specifically about the subject more about them as business owners thinking about their unique approach, because I think oftentimes we tend to think of things that have always been talked about in the past or other people are talking about this. So what do I have to say? That's unique and your perspective is pretty unique. So, with that being said, when we start off with the background and share with everyone kind of who you are and the business that you're in, Okay, great, well, thanks.
\n\nChuck: I'm saying hello from sunny South Texas post Christmas 2023, loving it, having some time off and spending time with family, and we spend time with family. We get thinking about you know what's the future look like. So a lot of what I do with people is try to you know, if you can't describe your future self, you won't have very do a very good job of goal setting. Whether that be financially, whether it be you know what you're doing for a living, and so I think that's the major you know framework is sort of that vision of who you want to become, or what you want to become as a family or in your career or whatever, and so I particularly drill down on the financial part of it. But of course, that also involves for many career or business development, and so we talked to.
\n\nI do some coaching with small business owners and then I show them how to use the tools and techniques we do on the private banking side. But just a little bit of quick history. So I'm a little bit further down the road of life. I'm what would be traditionally known as retirement age, but that ain't going to happen.
\n\nNot only just financially. I like a nice lifestyle, so to do that, you have to have cash flowing assets, you have to have something going on. I have a number of businesses that keep me busy at the level that I want to be, but I didn't get here overnight and so to tell you that I knew how all this was going to map out no, I didn't know it was going to turn out this way. The Lord has opened a lot of doors and provided provision and zeal for new things for me personally. So I think, no matter what you do, no matter what business you're in, you've really got to take a self assessment first.
\n\nYou know who am I, what are my skills and gifts, what makes me tick, and you know, I think a lot of people get burned out of that. I want to be passionate about what I do. You know you can be passionate about most anything if you can get the focus around it and you start to align your God given gifts, your talents, from education or from skill building or whatever. I mean. A good, excited plumber would be a great thing to have, right.
\n\nWhen the guy comes to your house, if he's dressed up in a three piece suit and he's got a very clean wrench in his hand, you might look at him and say I don't know if this guy's quite aligning himself with his trade, but a very courteous guy that maybe protects your wife's carpet from dirt and is well cleaned and has a uniform with a name on it.
\n\nYou know that might be a good idea for the plumber coming to your house. The same thing with anything. That's how we present, it's how we come at it. The book I wrote was a real supplement to the work that I'd already been doing and I was starting marketing back to sort of the back to your business owner and your book writer focus for the theme of the podcast. You know, what I found is that I needed to market to a slimmer, more focused market channel. Right, I needed to very identify for the lack of a better term my avatar, right, who was I really trying to get to? And once I did that, my revenue went up 5x immediately in the first year and the book was just a way to introduce people. I give it away a lot. I have a PDF copy I give away and it sets the context, because what I do with private family banking it's not an open and shut, you know. It's a customized fit for every person and the ideas are counterintuitive, they don't just jump off the page.
\n\nSo, back to you, stuart. I hope that was a good entree for where we wanted to go today.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, absolutely. I think it sets that scene, the idea of being specific in the target market so that you know who you're talking to and can talk to them in a way that kind of aligns and uses the right examples and talks about the right, comes at it from the right positioning, both in terms of where they want to go and where they are in their journey currently. So I think the idea of picking that single target market although it seems like scarcity and you're excluding some people to begin with, if you think about it from a campaign perspective, from a marketing campaign perspective, it's not the return of the way other people if they knock on the door or other people who identify themselves as interested, but in terms of you having 100 units of energy a month to do outreach to a specific group. Tailoring that 100 units of energy is far more effective than a scattergun approach of trying to be everything to everyone.
\n\nAbsolutely Go ahead I was just going to say. You mentioned that the ideas of private family banking is perhaps something that people have heard of, but the customized solutions for each person are very individualized and I think that's similar. It's a similar conversation that we have with people as they think about writing a book for their audience. Well, my solutions it's not one size fits all thing. Every person is different, but at some level there is a commonality. So how did you go about picking the right elements to kind of do that initial engagement with people? Obviously, the end solution is individual, but there is that commonality at an information level.
\n\nChuck: You know it's very interesting. That's a great question. I would parallel or make an analogy of this too. I used to own a VRBO property vacation rental by owner back in the day with before VRBO and all the internet and Airbnb's are what they are today. This is 20, some years ago and so I did a lot of marketing, and what happened in that scenario I will align to what I'm doing today. With private family banking, we hit the market just right post 9 11. The people wanted to rally as families, and so I had a very large place on a river. It was a beautiful spot, waterfall out front and the park for the kids next door was idealic. And but what hit? That place was so large that an individual couple, or maybe a couple with one or two children, probably wouldn't rent it. So we needed big groups. So what? We found? That multi families would come and rent our place for a week. They'd get away. It was off the grid, if you will kind of speak, off the internet.
\n\nI mean, we had power, but you know, there was internet was terrible, which people loved because they wanted to detach, you know. So I aligned what I'm doing with private family banking with. The time has come now, post COVID, the money situation, the banking failures, the economy, you know, do I do Bitcoin? Do I do this? What do I do with my cash? Is the dollar going to be digitized? Is a dollar going to fall as the reserve currency of the world? On and on.
\n\nSo so I didn't strike out to drum up more fear, but I knew fear is, you know, you know, the fear of failure or the hope of gain, or to the motivating factors for anything in life. And people are fearful, they're concerned, they're a bit confused, and so I think what I brought to it is a discussion about hey, let's talk about you and your family. So I do have clients ranging from 18 years old all the way to 75, but the core group of my clients are probably young couples with a couple of children on up, from maybe early the late 20s to maybe mid 40s. That's clear, the prime area. And these are people that are thinking family, they're thinking multi generational how do I pass wealth on? How am I going to set my children up for success? So it just really hit a chord and I came out with that starting last April.
\n\nSo it's been less than a year to where I started to really market and I wrote the book and got it published I think in May, probably June and it's just been a great supplement to push in the message of multi generational thinking and saving instead of spending and going into more and more consumer debt. And we address those things to. We help people get out of debt faster. So I kind of use the debt snowball technique a little variation on it, though a more powerful one, I would say and we also meet people right where they are. They're getting ready for retirement or they're concerned about losing, because you figure out the math is kind of easy when you think about it If you have a 401k. By the way, the government created a tax problem and then they created the solution with tax qualified plans, right.
\n\nSo, really kind of interesting the way that works. But nonetheless, when you put money in a tax protector, tax deferred plan, eventually you're going to pay the piper. Plus, you're subjecting that money to market volatility and we think the market's probably going to take a big turn here, maybe depending on the election. Probably as well either way, maybe, and not to speak politics, but it certainly is a fact in the marketplace. But what what we say is that let's get you some protection, let's get you a guaranteed win, a base platform where you always win and you're in control of your cash and you get some bonuses like dividends and things like that, and you get the month we call the money multiplier effect, so that that if in a 401k that volatility, if you lose 40%, which a lot of people did during COVID or the 08 crash, it takes 100% improvement to get that bet back to zero.
\n\nAnd you know you're not going to get a 10 or 15% return year after year in the stock market, unless you're an insider and you're, you know, hoping not to go to jail, I guess.
\n\nStuart: But so that's the interesting point that bridge from Pete things that people know and have some degree of understanding and comfort around. A lot of people are probably well aware of the idea of getting out of consumer debt and how expensive that is. They might be aware of the snowball ideas. They might be aware of their various retirement opportunities. So bridging that into the concern that people have got around and increasing awareness of things aren't the same anymore that they were right, it's the great way of starting that conversation into something that's ultimately somewhat more complicated or requires some support, like private family banking, but yeah.
\n\nChuck: I would say back to your other right before. The other question that you asked is what it is is about starting a conversation. If I could have any pointers to the people in your crowd, if you will, it's quit, quit marketing and start a conversation and make an offering. You know it sales comes before market marketing. If you don't make an offer of to somebody, you're not giving them any, you're just giving them more noise, right? People have so much stuff coming at them and so my target market. I was able, through just a situation of how I knew these people and how to market to them through other channels or sell to them. I put forth a proposition. In my ads and my email boxes, my calendar gets booked out. I mean I have 20 to 25 appointments. I have a great close rate, even the person that's in the most difficult situation. I'd write an article every week or more. I get it out on Instagram and you, my daughter, does on my social media. Thank God, because I have no clue how to do that.
\n\nBut if you can get somebody to help you with social media, you write the content. But don't worry about knowing it all. Don't try to be all things to all people. I guess that's a key message.
\n\nStuart: It's starting the conversation. We refer to the book as conversational starting books. It sounds like a difference from traditional books and I talk a lot about the product of the book not being a book sale. But the product is a conversation with someone who's likely to become a client. Because for all of us listening here, that's the real difference maker. We're not authors, we're not going to make a, we're not even really looking for speaking careers. For the most part it's introducing the idea to someone who's likely to most likely to become a client at some point further down the track. So that conversation starting element is something that we hammer home with people all the time.
\n\nChuck: Well, you know, and me, like many other people have always talked about writing a book, right?
\n\nStuart: And even.
\n\nChuck: I mean, I did my doctoral work. I got all but dissertation. So I'm a doctor, abd all but dissertation. And the reason is you get stuck, you get writer's cramp, you can't think of something you're excited enough about to write a book on, and so for me, this book was not only very natural, but your process was so facilitated that you know and I think you talk about it in that other podcast how do you keep it going? How do you set achievable goals? Well, you know what? Don't? You have to do that with your business. So just apply that good discipline and it's just another piece of your work.
\n\nBut I can't say enough about and I mean people. Just, it is a credibility thing. I mean not to say your book should be well written, I think it should. You know, if you're using it to educate people on what you're offering, you have to do the due diligence, you have to do the hard work. But getting it out there is so key, and getting it in people's hands that I find that plus, I put a lot of my story about my life in there and again.
\n\nI'm in the classical above retirement age bracket, but I'm not a classical common kind of guy. I'm still popping it out and I'm more energized now.
\n\nI just turned 70. I am more energized now than I was 10 years ago and it's because of focus, it's because being excited and helping people it's a ministry, you know. It's about reaching the core of somebody and even if you're only making a small profit, it's so exciting to know that you help somebody. I think if you do that and you get away from your you know beeline to, you know wanting the three vacations to Aruba, and just do the work, you know, maybe those vacations will come, maybe they won't, but you're going to get more out of your life and you're. You won't have to sell your enthusiasm, your love for people and the desire to close a gap. I mean, I guess that's the way I'm made. I was a consultant for 20 years, freelancing and did a lot of work with clients, ceos all over the country in healthcare space, but I never went in with a brochure. I never went in. I always looked at those people and got them to tell me what they were struggling with.
\n\nYou know the old, find the pain and then scratch the itch or whatever you know, and so you giving a monogam of information is really not very effective. That's back to the conversation.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and the passion that you bring to it is the same whether we start off with a plumber example, or whether you're a vet. My brother's getting married in January. His wife is a surgical vet. He's a yacht broker. I can talk all day long about creating books. My wife's a kindergarten teacher. She can talk all day long about early childhood education and the approach that Waldorf takes, the schools that she works in. All of us are in business for ourselves. We specifically don't have traditional jobs because we are passionate about our subject and if we can share that one piece of information that really helps someone, whether or not we get paid for it, I think the majority of us are feeling good because we're, just as you say, out there helping people, and a book is a great way of starting that conversation in a non-threatening way, with a very clear call to action, and lead to an easy next step.
\n\nChuck: I think another thing, stuart too, and you know this the real power in that conversational and relationship building. Right, you're building a relationship, you're trying to build trust early on. Without trust, you really got nothing. One guy told me there's three things. They want to trust you, they want to know that you're an expert and they want to know you know what if you're bringing in another company, like I do, to actually do the product, they want to trust that company. So all of those are trust related. But that doesn't happen.
\n\nSo when you start talking to people, I think what you have to do is not only set them at ease, but use the power of questions and that could be my next book. You know I read a book years ago when I was consulting, called the Question Behind the Question. I don't even remember who the author was, but was a powerful idea that you know you ask a question, you need to think through what is behind your question, because you're trying to get to something, and when people start asking you questions, you also think that too. But just the power of asking a person to articulate you know where are you today. You know what are your hopes and dreams. You know what if you were to solve one or two problems, what would those look like? What would those be? Tell me a little bit about you Now. If you go too fast and you go too close, you go too deep, people are going to back off and you know just human nature, right, they're not going to.
\n\nYou know you can't get into the deep, dark secrets of people's lives overnight, but when you're dealing with their finances that's a touchy area to begin with, and so you got to build that relationship through conversation.
\n\nStuart: And, like you say, it's positioning it at the right level at the right time, understanding where you use in the book, in the funnel, what the call to action is the next step, what I sometimes refer to it, as I'm sure I heard this from someone else but relationship capital, like you can't ask, you need to ask the questions that are balanced against the level of relationship that you've got. I think particularly that, as you said, in your industry, where there is a lot of baggage and sensitivity around finances anyway, going in too hard, too deep is either going to make people feel uncomfortable or threatened or they've done something wrong. So if you can keep that conversation going until they're at this point of no like entrusting you enough to be able to dive into those deeper parts, it really is a good thing and it's interesting.
\n\nChuck: I've had clients, you know, again, some of it seems to be magical. I mean, you never know right, but you get a client coming in and within 10 minutes they're telling you their life story. The best thing you can do is shut up and listen. And you know, give some body language. I used to zoom a lot. Zoom is so powerful, or whatever mechanism. You know video conferencing, but you know, if somebody to turn over $150,000 to you based on two meetings on zoom man, that's a pretty powerful message that you've done a good job of gaining their trust and explaining the mechanism and then showing them the pathway.
\n\nAnd I get that. You know, at least once a month, a contract, if you will, an arrangement at that level or more, and so it is. It's very, very important and again, I try to you know another thing is language right, not the language of finance? If I tell you, well, we're going to arbitrage this rate, and then you know the net present value of futuristic, you know yada, yada, yada. Well, you've lost them on square one and sometimes many of us are too close to our own work to understand and the decoding that's necessary. So back to you.
\n\nStuart: That's such a great point and it comes back to this conversational start and not making an assumption that either people know everything that we could possibly tell them or just because they've heard it before, that it's actually sunk in and it makes a difference.
\n\nI was saying to someone a couple of weeks ago on a show that in my previous corporate life I used to work for the Financial Services Authority in the UK. So we would go out I was on the IT side, not on the regulation side but we would go out and do presentations in London to workplace. They was like employee education side of things and around finance, particularly although someone pointed out that doctors are the same around finance, particularly that use of like in-house language and just thrown out there because we have to deal with it day to day, we just don't even think about it, but the people receiving that the words mean nothing. So if you can bring people along on the journey using language that is familiar and doesn't sound daunting or scary, all make them feel like they're, that they're well stupid, for one of a better word for not understanding it, which is so far from the truth. Yeah, I really think it's about building that rapport and starting a conversation in a way that helps them.
\n\nOne point I want to say. I asked you talk about running ads and making sure that you specifically ask the ask for a next step. Those ads that then lead to appointments, are they social media channels or are they print channels? Are they more asking people to schedule a meeting or are they related to the book?
\n\nChuck: Yeah, so what I do? I run ads on very specific podcasts and YouTube channels. I've done my social media is just reels and stuff that go out on Instagram and I get some draw. I've done other podcasts like this. I did one with iHeart Radio that gets me some traction, that's broadcast nationally and all of those again, for the small entrepreneur they're basically quote unquote free. I mean, it's just your time. People are. People don't realize how much you and other people like me that run a podcast are looking for content, right, they're screaming for content. So they're not going to charge you. Maybe some will, but my ads are running. Their paid ads are running on YouTube and very specific podcast and address that audience that I'm targeting and I get mostly. I get now about 20% will book directly to my calendar off the ad, which is powerful.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nChuck: So what I do I grab that calendar invite and immediately send them a read ahead because I've got to have the read ahead so that we get a jumpstart on that zoom call. So they had the schedule is to schedule a zoom call. I send them a read ahead. If they send me an email, in my ads I have a link to a free book. They'll go out. Sometimes they get the book. Sometimes they just go out and look at my website. But I'll know they've been in there and I get their email. I've got mechanisms in place to get their email. Then I'll get back to them and about 30 or 30 or 40% of those will book a meeting. And then I've got people that will call me. So I put my phone number out there a number of times.
\n\nOne of my great, most opportunistic opportunities opportunistic opportunities, one of my most a huge deal that I have in the work right now came from a phone call a guy gave me when I was on holiday in northern Maine, barely in cell phone range, and this guy calls me and we're still having a dialogue. It's too much to go into right now and I got an NDA so I can't say too much, but it's a big deal and that came from one ad from one place and one phone call. And it's just you definitely never know, you know. And then I get people who are just struggling and you know, guy with three kids and he's 32 and he doesn't have any money and but yet, you know, you rang up all this credit card that we can help them to. So I have a very wide range.
\n\nI take all comers. I don't. I'm not, you know, I trust that this will all work out. I have you know volume is helpful and the more I calls I take the more volume. So back to your question. I get people. The offer is, you know, book a call or call me. I give them the ad copy I wrote and it's rich with language that hits people where they are and it I seem to get. That gets me lots of traction. So, but I'm in about four or five podcasts and a YouTube channel.
\n\nYeah, my ad spend is ranges per month. You know so many dollars a month.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and when you said in that answer the fact that you never know the opportunities to be out there across multiple channels and even if you're hitting the same people at a different on a different day, there's that saying you never stand in the same river twice. It's really the fact of presenting multiple opportunities to be out there, in the understanding that you can never know exactly which day is going to be right for the person listening. But if you're there on the day that is right for them, then that's where the opportunity is to take it to the next step. Absolutely the. I've got a copy of the book title up here.
\n\nChuck: Yeah, there you go, protect your money now. Yeah.
\n\nStuart: And I love the hat as well. So keep on with the branding. That's right. You mentioned when we were talking about the audience that you were looking to dial in. If you had to pick that single target audience, and it's the people who have got some awareness that they need to do something. They might not know what they need to do, but there's all of these messages that they get from out there, so they're subheading in the book talks about protecting from upcoming financial financial meltdowns or banking meltdowns. The audience who comes to you how educated are they in terms of the solutions versus how interested are they in the problems? They've got an awareness that they need to do something different. Great question.
\n\nChuck: They come to me knowing more about the problem than they do. My solution, our solution, and that's rightly so, because we're not mainstream or counter cultural, counterintuitive. But they grab on quickly because I have a method. I use physical movements, I have some graphics that I'll throw I just share a lot of screen but I don't throw a lot of numbers and they got a concept. But they come knowing that what they've done hasn't worked.
\n\nNumber two, they know that if they got their money tied up in a 401k or a 403b or an IRA or even a Roth, they're going to pay taxes on the gains eventually All of our in our system. If you go by our rules, if you will how we train you, you're going to grow this tax free for the rest of your life. That's a huge advantage. People don't understand the decimating character of taxation on wealth, and so you could pass this along tax free to your heirs as well, but so they come knowing what didn't work, and so they're really already piqued to learn something new, and so that's why I use a very educational step by step process.
\n\nStuart: I think that's a key point for anyone listening as well this idea that people have some understanding of some solutions, but not the full picture and almost certainly not specifically the way that you do it, but they've got quite a wide. It's the problems out there that are triggering them into taking some step, because the inertia that everyone's got of not making a change or just letting time go by, that's a powerful thing to overcome. So I think starting that conversation by highlighting what the problems are in presenting the idea of the solution really helps start that conversation and move it forwards.
\n\nChuck: Right, and I think that two things happen in most of the people I get not only do they understand what they weren't doing, or what they didn't work is really more precisely it, but they're hesitant to try something new and they don't want to get desperate. The other people have already gone the full route of getting desperate and lost more money. And so those are the ones that say please help me.
\n\nYou know because, they're just fed up because people. What happens is people feel they're getting taken advantage of or they're fear of missing out, fomo or whatever they do. Or my neighbor did this, or this guy told me that at the end of the day it doesn't work out for them. They're looking for sanity. They're looking for something structured and something that's more certain certainty. You know, a lack of uncertainty. You'll never close a sale when you have lack of uncertainty. That's a key, another key driver. You've got to get certainty in that person's mind, because that's what they're trying to overcome. They're so uncertain because they've been ripped off through. You know if you will not rip it off, but certainly affected by the market swings.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah. And once that fear comes in, like I said, the option of doing nothing is the easier option for most people. No one gets. No one gets sacked for buying IBM or whatever that ad used to be. No one gets. It's never their fault if they do nothing and the circumstances change around them. But also they're not going to get the benefits of that if you just sit there and hope that something's going to change.
\n\nChuck: Absolutely.
\n\nStuart: The term always goes quick on these shows. I want to make sure that we give people a chance to follow up and find out more about you and the book and what you're doing. So if people are watching along on video, there's your background is fantastic because it's got the contact details straight away. But for those listening, where's a good place to follow up and find out more about you?
\n\nChuck: Yeah, the best thing to do is send me an email. Chuckchuk at private family, chuck at private family banking dot com. That'll get me an email. Send me an email and then I'll send you a calendar invite. I'll send you a free ebook to read and some other resources. I've got a free e course that I just finished. It's brief, about 20 minutes, but it'll really take everything we talked about briefly today and I didn't get dived down and obviously into the detail. I know that's not necessarily the purpose of our podcast, but I love it. I love what we talked about today and I believe in it. I mean, I can tell you getting the book done was a big deal emotionally for me, because it took one of those burdens off right, and so do the book man, do the book.
\n\nStuart: And now that you've got it, it almost frees up that brain space to look for all those opportunities to use it. Often say that once that asset is created the use cases even if you go into the project with some good ideas, the use cases down the track is just an idea of what you can do and so on the track, it's just an opportunity. It's something else to advance the conversation and reinforce the authority time after time whenever the opportunity arises. But that only comes from having it complete.
\n\nChuck: Absolutely.
\n\nStuart: One quick one just before we wrap up. I don't want to go off on another tangent, but couldn't help but ask. You mentioned the online course, the email course that's just finished. Is that related to the book or is that on a complimentary subject?
\n\nChuck: It's on this subject, how to. It's a how to what this is and then how it works. Right, and that's private family banking yeah.
\n\nStuart: That's such a fantastic opportunity to advance that conversation even further. So, from the top of the funnel, people have a problem. Here's a broad manifesto of a solution down to okay, here's some practical steps you can take if you're not quite ready to jump on a call yet. Yeah, fantastic, yeah, perfect. Well, again, thanks for your time, and particularly thanks for your time in between Christmas and New Year. Here will release this in a couple of weeks or just be into the new year. So, as anyone's kind of recovering from Christmas and thinking about doing something about their finances as January gets going, this hopefully will hit at the right time for them. And the email address the way to get in touch with you will make sure that it's in the show notes. So if people are watching on the website or on a podcast player, then I can send you a link to.
\n\nChuck: on my calendar, I can send you a link or, if you want, to put that in a show notes to oh perfect, yeah, we'll do that.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, make it even easier for people. So anyone who's listened to this and is interested in find out more, just check out the show notes and we'll put a link straight to Chuck's calendar and that.
\n\nChuck: Excellent.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic, Chuck. Thank you so much. Looking forward to checking in with you again in 2024. See how things are going.
\n\nChuck: Thank you, my friend. It's been a blessing to get to know you and your team, and they've been excellent, always on top of things, so I can't give you enough accolades there. It's been great.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Appreciate it Always good to hear good stories like that. Thanks for listening as well. He's wishing you a great new year or hope you had a great new year when this goes live and we will catch you all in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More show, we're talking with Chuck DeLadurantey, financial advisor, private family banking expert based in South Texas, and author of Protect Your Money Now. \r\n\r\nHis business is not unique; other people are doing similar work, but his approach and work style are unique to him.\r\n\r\nWe spoke about the opportunity to differentiate yourself in a crowded market, and Chuck shared his focus on strategies for building generational wealth, debt elimination, and retirement planning. \r\n\r\nChuck also stresses the importance of truly understanding what clients want and need and building trust through real conversations—conversations that start with his book.\r\n\r\nHe has some great insights into how writing books and using social media can help you connect with people while amplifying your expertise.","date_published":"2024-03-17T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/96ed1d25-f0a4-4888-abd3-e2b1e5c9726c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":22777129,"duration_in_seconds":1888}]},{"id":"3891a6e4-d51b-4110-a14b-858523e1aa23","title":"Ep160: Making Emotional Connections with Grant Gooding","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/160","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Grant Gooding of Proof Positioning about the secrets of market research for small businesses.\n\nStarting his career in mergers and acquisitions, Grant was a customer of market research provided by some large organizations. Realizing they were great at providing data but not insights into what the data practically meant, Grant started Proof to bridge that gap and provide actionable market-driven intelligence.\n\nWe focused our conversation on how market research can help small and medium-sized companies determine what questions matter when growing their business. \n\nHaving personally had preconceived ideas that market research was only an option for big companies with significant budgets, it was revealing to see just how accessible it is and how Proof's methodology marries with our approach to creating books.\n\nBoth aim to answer potential clients' most pressing questions and start a conversation.\n\nThere are a lot of valuable ideas here as you look to use a book to build your business.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Stuart and discuss the accessibility and utility of market research for small to medium-sized businesses.\n Grant shares his transition from consuming market research for mergers and acquisitions to founding Proof Positioning to demystify complex data for entrepreneurs.\n We highlight the importance of asking 'burning questions' to help businesses overcome barriers and propel growth.\n The conversation addresses the misconceptions surrounding market research and the value of an abductive approach over traditional inductive methods.\n Grant emphasizes the significance of emotionally charged messaging in influencing consumer choices and driving customer behavior.\n We explore the concept that emotional influence often outweighs logical reasoning in decision-making processes.\n The episode discusses how simplifying communication and resonating with customers on an emotional level can transform business strategies.\n Stuart talks about the counterintuitive discovery that clients using multiple solution providers can indicate the value of a business's niche expertise.\n We reflect on a real-life lesson from a business that failed after ignoring expert advice, stressing the importance of informed analysis and listening to research.\n The episode concludes with an invitation for audience engagement and a look at the resources provided for businesses to maximize their market research efforts.\n\n\nLINKS\nGrant Gooding - LinkedIn\nProof Positioning\nInsights from Proof\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/160\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\nEPISODE CHAPTERS\n(0:00:01) - Market Research for Small Businesses\n(0:07:23) - Simplifying Market Research Strategies\n(0:16:58) - Understanding Emotional Decision Making in Business\n(0:29:02) - Leveraging Market Research for Business Success\n(0:34:40) - Understanding Customer Behavior and Decision-Making\n(0:43:00) - Podcast Follow-Up and Future Plans\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Grant Gooding. Grant, how you doing, buddy? \n\nGrant: Very good how you doing bud. \n\nStuart: Good, good, okay, this one's going to be an interesting one. So we are usually talking with authors about their book and kind of frame and get around that. Grant and I were introduced through someone else on LinkedIn I think it was originally. I'll get Grant to do a proper introduction in a second, but I went into the conversation with the expectation that this would be an interesting connection. But really their business is too separated from what we do day to day. But in the conversation that really turned out not to be the case and I really wanted to get Grant on to share what they can do or their industry with our audience here, because I think it'll be an eye opener for the potential. So, saying that to the side for a second Grant, why don't you give an intro to you and then proof positioning and what the organization is? \n\nGrant: Sure thanks. I just appreciate that you associate the word interesting with market research. In any capacity, I'll take that as a win, no matter what. No, I appreciate it. Yes, we're a market research company, which is just the sexiest business of all time, I think. Didn't do this on purpose came from the mergers and acquisitions world, so I was a business analyst and was a consumer of market research. \n\nI had to consume market research in order to do my job and was always, to put it lightly a little disappointed in what was done, what I had to work with and how it would actually translate into helping me understand the businesses that I was charged with analyzing. So sort of you know. You ask the never intending to be an entrepreneur, really just asking stupid questions like why don't? \n\npeople do it and kind of ended up where we are, which is something I never would have expected, and we have a very unique capability and we it's kind of a fun gig. So we work with all kinds of different sizes of organizations and we've worked with the federal government and agencies and we worked with tiny little startups that are trying to make their way, and it's a fun gig, for sure. \n\nStuart: I think that's what was interesting, again, being a consumer of market research in a much smaller context than as a business analyst. But you see pieces around and about and have some perceived notion or preconceived notion on what that means, and most of the I guess it's the access to that information. Most of it is coming from big organizations who are trying to nudge people in one direction or another and there's a, I think the book is called. It's either the tiger that isn't or one of the undercover economists books in the UK. They were talking about the nudge unit in the UK which was a government body test with trying to nudge. \n\nRight, yeah, yeah, I've got that kind of social change to nudge people in the direction that the policy wanted, and a lot of that was based off market research of what the current preconceptions were in the area that they were trying to nudge and then what message can they can send out. So this idea is we were talking that market research is something that's accessible to smaller organizations, not just ones with six, seven figure market research budgets. The audience here, as I mentioned, is mainly small, medium sized business owners or people who are responsible for kind of filling their own book I think that realtors fall into that camp financial advisors. What access do they have to either existing market research that's out there that maybe they can utilize and maybe think about it from the business analyst perspective. And then, moving into, okay, I'm a business owner, I'm launching a product or tweaking a service, and maybe I haven't even considered market research. But what's the easy entry into this world for those people? \n\nGrant: Yeah, that's a good question. When we first started, we worked with bigger companies, because that's who had budget and that's who knew what market research was and sort of knew how to use it. And then we sort of realized like well, the only reason that market research is used by big organizations is because it's so unbelievably challenging to translate. That's the reason why. So what if we just made it simple to understand? \n\nStuart: and really anybody could use it. \n\nGrant: And then we also had to come up with this like sort of good enough type of mentality there's no such thing as perfect research anyway, so why does that have to be so expensive? We utilized software and process a lot to be able to have really affordable prices that allow us to work with just about anybody really, which is part of the challenge of building any business really. But then applying it in a way that made sense to any type of business owner was challenge number two, and the way that we solved for that is we created something. Well, we didn't create that. It's not very creative, but we call it burning questions. We just say what do you want to know? I mean, most of the time no one knows what to do with market research because they get an industry report and it tells them macroeconomic or even microeconomic data and they're like, okay, what am I supposed to? \n\nStuart: do with. How do I turn this into? \n\nGrant: money, yeah, and it's really hard for that into money, and so therefore it's probably not a good investment for a lot of companies to invest in that type of thing. \n\nBut if you have a company like ours that says, well, what's standing in your way from getting to the next stage of your business, there's something, there's a barrier that's keeping you from growing, and typically those barriers are mental things that we need to get past customers or customers and prospects. So why are they not buying this product? We made it for them, they told us they wanted it, we built it and now they're not buying it. So why are they not buying it? Or we thought we would take this existing product and move it into this market. That was really similar and we thought it would totally translate and it's not working. Like, should we abandon this or are we just missing a nuance? And the reality is most people are missing a nuance. They don't understand the competitive landscape. Like they don't understand. \n\nWell, yes, your solution might work, but, like, say, your software business, your solution might work, but your biggest competitor might be Excel right, which is a free solution, so it's an available alternative and that might be good enough for them. So, even though your solution might make sense in your market, you may have very low probability of being able to sell it in the way that you thought you could. So we can analyze, well, what are the elements of Excel that they like and what are the weaknesses that exist there, and maybe we can translate the weaknesses into an emotional value proposition that will entice someone to buy your product. So we approach research in a way that's highly targeted towards whatever the business wants to get accomplished, and when we do it that way, it's substantially more valuable and people can take action. So when we combine like that sort of ethos with an affordable pricing model, it works. \n\nIt's like 10 years, so it's not like that we got there. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it looks like a quick journey when you look back, but in the depth of it it takes a long time to get that refined. Refined and approach and actually that's a great point because that probably goes further into the biases that, as an outsider, or preconceived notions that, as an outside, you think OK, market research it's almost just an execution of. I have these questions to ask and responsible for coming up with these questions and delivering the package of questions to someone who then just executes on it. They're interpreting the data at the back end and they're really refining that. What the problem is at the front end Is that perception of a lot of that lands with the business. Is that just the wrong perception or is that how it used to be, or is that what a lot of other big companies do? And then the difference that you're really making is that intelligence around it. \n\nGrant: So it's true to some extent, but we do a lot of hand holding through the process, because you only know what you know, I mean there are a lot of companies that we work with. They're doing research for the first time ever. So, you know, they're just trying to figure out who are we thinking of, who our customers are. We think they like this Are we missing the boat or should we go? You know, and so what we'll hold on to is that we're going to be able to help guide them through. \n\nStuart: Well, you don't really want to know that. You really want to know this. \n\nGrant: So this is the question that we should be asking and then we do all the translation into, like, the types of questions that need to ask. So here's a, here's something we figured out. Most research is done as far as, like, survey work and any type of interview or interpersonal type of research fall is typically done in correct and it's not. It's our natural instinct to engage in interpersonal communication, so it's inductive analysis. I ask you a question, you give me the answer. \n\nRight, and then I'll take that answer and I'll process that answer with other answers and then I'll find the truth. Well, the reality is that's not a good way to do research at all, and the reason is because people lie, and not necessarily to be deceitful, right, they're not mean or trying to, you know, mess with you. They're giving you a socially acceptable answer, or something that they think you might want to hear, or just the saying the first thing that pops into their head. The nuance is what people buy. People don't buy big stuff, they buy small stuff, they buy the little nuances. That and the way that those little nuances make them feel, and those things can be really lost if you engage in interpersonal methodology for research. \n\nSo we use a methodology called abduction, which is sort of the exact opposite and well, not the exact opposite, but very different and it's more like crime scene investigation. We don't really want to ask any questions, we want to analyze every variable and then we'll reverse engineer the solution. So, as a, for instance, let's say, I want to know why someone is not buying a product. I don't, I may not even ask them that question, I may not which would be like why wouldn't you ask them why they're not buying it? They're like well, because they're going to, they're going to give me an answer that's not, oh, it's too expensive. Well, that's not true. Right Like that means you've not been able to provide strong emotional value and that value is not translated into a sale. So instead I want to analyze what's important to this person. \n\nWho are they? What's their role? What's their what? Where are they in a buying matrix? Who are they? A decision maker, are they an influencer? And then I'm going to analyze all this stuff around them and then I can very accurately infer why they're not buying. And it's a little bit weird and uncomfortable for people and there's and it's very challenging for someone to be able to do that if they're not familiar with the methodology or how to do that analysis. So we kind of walk them through really, what do you want to know? We kind of handle all the nerdy back and stuff. We don't even tell them as much as I just told you. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nGrant: Right, they don't they don't they tonight yeah. \n\nYeah, and you know most people really don't care, and that's something we test, by the way. No one cares how the sausage is made. If you talk about what your business does and how it works, I assure you you are losing money If you do that because no one cares. We had an article we wrote called your customers don't care about you, where we analyze that mathematically and have very accurate results. And it's sadly true, no one cares. And so and then on the back end, all we have kind of this rule. There's like this rule of three. \n\nI don't know where this came from, but I don't know who said this, but it's sort of true and brilliant in its simplicity and that's if you give someone three things to do, they'll do all three, and if you give them four, they'll do zero. So so we analyze all their burning questions. So why aren't they buying this product? Who are the? What's a competitive matrix look like? What should we be saying to them? Right, can we upsell them this product? \n\nWe analyze whatever they want and then we look at the biggest areas of opportunity that exists and then we make those recommendations at the end. So it's not just handing somebody a bunch of data, it's saying, hey, this is a, this is one of your questions. Here's the answer, and these are the three things that you should do in order to activate on that and and make and to change behavior. If you want to get someone to buy, do these three things and they will start buying. You know, and so you. If you put output like that, the average person will knows how to consume it. They can even hand it to someone else on their team that wasn't involved in the process and they know what to do. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's actionable and useful. It's not just giving someone homework to go and interpret and add in another layer of, of, of perception or whatever position they're in. It's actually just giving them some steps that they can follow through and then test the results of those. Yeah. \n\nGrant: It was getting simple stuff like that right that made a really big difference in, because I remember years ago we would give someone stuff that was right, we like here's the output, and they wouldn't do anything and we thought it was their fault. They're like I think it's our fault. I think we're not giving this to them in a way where they can understand it simply and easily take action. And you know the old rule of thumb where, like the most, the things with the most value are the most simple Right. And I was like we were too complicated so we just constantly try to. \n\nStuart: There's a need, and we've all found this as well. There is a need to over complicate things and try and give perceived value through complexity, whereas the reality is, if you can get their outputs as simple as possible and then, if they actually execute an action, take action on it. We have it with. So the book set up in most of our models is pick the single target market, decide what the quarter action is, what the next step is that you want them to do, and the book is then the mechanism for getting to this output, whether or not people read it or not, and the way that they get from A to B, from cover to cover, is just, almost. \n\nJust think about the table of contents and if someone just saw that as signposts, is that communicating the right language? Is it giving them the friendly feeling? Is it moving them in that direction or taking that small next step? But it's so easy to get caught up in the production side of things, and when we look back at some of the completed jobs and if far too much of their effort has been on the from the point that they record the content on the production side, if that takes way longer than the getting to the content side, then it's a sign that I went a bit awry. And if there's, as an emails to, or not a thousand, but 10 emails just to do the production steps, which really should be one email, it's the effort is in the wrong place. \n\nGrant: That's Anybody. How we trick ourselves into thinking that complexity equals greater value. \n\nStuart: Right, right yeah. \n\nGrant: It's just opposite. \n\nStuart: Yeah, particularly now. I mean I think maybe 20, 30 years ago there might have been. When you think about, I mean, I can remember working in I think we're a similar age I'll use this if I'm aging but I can remember being in a job pre email. Someone had email addresses. There were no websites, it was all phone based stuff, and there was an element of that kind of technological transition where more really was more, as new things came up in new capabilities, landing pages, email sequences, chatbots, all of these things where more could be more. \n\nI think there was an element of okay, we need to do new stuff, but now, at a stage where the noise is so great, there's so much stuff that could be done, you really need to simplify and then dial in on the stuff that moves the needle, which I think then ties back to what you're doing. A company, I imagine, would come to you with a problem and the answer could be 50 things Maybe they could have a good shot and narrowing it down to 25. But through the research, really finding the three that move the needle, I guess that's what makes the real difference. It's not just an academic exercise. \n\nGrant: Yeah that's if you really nerd out about what research is. It's not if people say, well, they think we find the correct solution, but the reality is we try to give options that are all correct so the company can take the path that is most aligned with who they are. There are values and how they wanna grow their company. There's just one solution. We are actually a variable eliminator. So you're right. At any like, the most challenging business problems are the ones that have 50 correct solutions, and we just have a really interesting mechanism that allows us to say that's true, but these 46 aren't gonna yield you as much money, or they're just not. You know, the messaging stays like a word. So here's four options. All four of these are going to work to some extent. This one's gonna work better than all of them, but that doesn't mean you have to do that, and it's much more. This is something that was we took us a while to figure out as well, but we would always say well, let's really show the highest mathematically performing strategy intact. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nGrant: And again people wouldn't do them and we were like, well, why not? You're like, well, it's because people are people and they're gonna. You know it's like it's their company. They can burn it to the ground if they want. Give them options and let them make that. You know, make that justification on their own, because they may not wanna do that thing right. \n\nStuart: Maybe like that. \n\nGrant: I don't like the way that feels no. \n\nStuart: That's the interesting piece, which almost ties into the whole market research. Element of it's the answers that people give if you're doing the direct asking unnecessarily, the answers that are the right answers or the answers that there are the truth. I guess giving people the three or four options that make sense. You don't know why someone doesn't picks one over another. It might be some completely unrelated business reason that they just don't wanna do it. But at least given them the options of the mathematically best answers, it means that they're more likely to be successful than anything else. \n\nGrant: Well, the reason is the same reason that we do research in the first place, and that's people are different, right, you know? And in many ways we are barely different from our 13 year old selves. A lot of the social biases and beliefs that exist are concreted in our brain around the age of 13. So what kind of the product of our parents in many ways. And those beliefs are changed only through immersion or trauma. So immersion would be like college, for instance. You are in an immersive environment where you're there all the time and you're surrounded by different viewpoints and those viewpoints can change your belief system. Trauma, either emotional trauma or actual head trauma, can change your beliefs as well, but that's really it. \n\nSo we make irrational decisions. This is sort of the basis of our research is around emotional resonance testing, which I don't know if that's ever nerdy enough to go into. People care about that, but we didn't figure this out. But the fact of the matter is we make almost every decision, and I say almost because there are some detractor neuroscientists that believe approximately 3% of our decisions are made with our smart brain and those are the detractors. \n\nStuart: So those are the ones that are like we're not emotive creatures. \n\nGrant: We don't make emotional. We don't make 100%. I personally believe approximately 100% of our decisions are made with our emotive brain, and part of the reason of that is I see irrational things all the time in our data that make absolutely no sense at all. But then also look at the world. You think we're a rational species. I mean, come on. I mean, basically, what happens is information comes into the amygdala of the brain, it's sent back to the limbic system, which is where our social belief system is, it's where a lot of our instincts are, and then we go. \n\nIf we don't understand something, it's too complicated. It's a very good rule of thumb for any business owner. If the information is too complicated, it will go from the decision making part of the brain up into here. So Antonio DeMascio, who's the most cited neuroscientist in history, now basically concluded that the brain, the frontal below here, which is what we do like engineering and mathematics with His estimation is that 0% of our decisions come out of that part of our brain. What happens is the limbic system talks to it when there's something complicated that doesn't understand it. It gives output back to the dumb emotional brain and then the emotional brain is like okay and it does whatever that's on the way. \n\nIf you're looking at a salad in a cheeseburger, I mean, look at human beings. We, you know it's just, and even you would say, oh well, the, if we chose the salad, that's a rational decision. But like, no, it's not. That's still emotional, Right, You're doing it because you want to improve yourself image, or you're doing it because you know what I mean. There's some emotive reason. You're doing that as well, or anyway. So we have a metric that allows us to identify if someone's making an emotional decision or if they're making a logical decision. And if they're making a logical decision, our advice is don't do that thing, Because you're literally talking to a part of the brain that is not going to output a decision. So use the emotionally resonant messages and you're going to be more successful is a mathematical certainty. \n\nStuart: So that's an interesting point Because when we say again, turn it back to the book audience, it's easy to think about the book as an academic project because all of our experiences around books being academic I mean particularly I mean maybe fiction at one end, but even fiction you go back to, like English lessons and having to write things in and get marked, so it's naturally sits in that camp. \n\nAnd then when we're talking about how do people resonate and get that conversation going with people in order to they want to make the next step. We then layer on the point that we said before about everyone thinks they're more complicated is better and want to demonstrate how clever we are and how are things unique and different. But really the emotional connection to the problem and the emotional resolution triggers in the chapter titles that move people towards that next step, which is the call to action and the reach out and call me or fill out this form, whatever the next step is having that connected with emotional outcomes way more than technical solutions or superior solutions. That seems like it would be far more effective tool. \n\nGrant: People are very frustrated when we show them that they're incredibly sophisticated fancy pants thing is irrelevant, but the fact that someone will answer their phone call, they're like that's the thing. The idea how long this took us to make that, yeah, like what are you doing for them that allows them to improve their life? And if you're not focused on that, you're focused on the wrong thing. I do think, speaking of that sort of targeted message, your books do that. Well, we always try to do what we call probably not all that appropriately punch somebody in the face. If you punch somebody in the face, you got their attention and there's no better way to do that than to have a highly specific, highly niche conversation. \n\nThe problem with how our dumb brain works is that anytime we're especially going to put a book out, I like that you talk about how it's like sort of an academic, like we throw note as an academic thing when textbooks are big and they cover lots of subjects. \n\nBut that's a four way like your brain wants to do that, because you're like well, if I'm going to write this book, but it's only right if I'm going to write a book and it's only going to talk about how to transition my business to my children, like, oh my God. But there's so much more like, let's just look at our client base, like that's just a part of our business model. Those are great clients, those legacy clients are great to have, but my God, look how much we're leaving on the table. So we should have chapters that are about other stuff too. And they start increasing the scope and increasing the scope and increasing the scope and the next thing you know, you got a textbook that no one cares about. So having a highly niche product that speaks to a very specific audience and punches them in the face will be substantially more effective than just poking a whole bunch of people. \n\nStuart: If I can get your phone number so we can send them, all our clients, through to you to reinforce that message first, that will go along. \n\nGrant: It's not me, it's a physiological certainty, Like that's the way we work. \n\nStuart: It's so interesting I mean, tying back to that point of simplicity is the solution that everyone's looking for and almost the product, particularly, I think, with the majority of people that we're working with the books on a fiction product to a no one's buying a book to be entertained. \n\nThe job of work of the book isn't the words in the page. The job of work is to move people to the next step and help them get one step closer to the solution, whether they're doing that themselves or whether they need you to do that. So, with that in mind, making those steps as simple as possible and the fact that this piece of the puzzle is one in a multi-step stage, how do you find the clients that come to you and the work that they engage? Is the scope relatively constrained and they're trying to get you to fix one problem but maybe not the rest of the business? Or do a lot of people think about the emotional triggers that you're uncovering? They then look at that as information that can flow through to the rest of the business. Are they trying to fix just a marketing problem or just a product problem, when really the triggers are applicable across the board? \n\nGrant: Most of the time, we're going to force them even if they don't want to look at a moralistic environment around the business. \n\nBecause like I said, it may not be the product, it may be how the market is looking at an available alternative and that could be devastating to the business. So we may look at, like the Excel example I gave, we may go all right. So the biggest issue people have with Excel when they're trying to solve this problem that your comprehensive software solves is X. So we know that we will have a higher mathematical probability to create interest if we talk about X. So that is not only a marketing solution but it's also a product of development solution, like when you're talking about your product. That needs to be the first thing. And, by the way, if you talk about a second thing and a third thing and a fourth thing, every time you do that you're actually decreasing the value in their head because they may not need that, like I just needed to do this and so to only talk about that one thing. And then you need to make sure that the product is engineered in a way that allows them to take advantage of that particular characteristic as soon as possible. \n\nSo it may be that we'll come out of this with a very comprehensive, very accurate messaging or marketing strategy, but it might touch several other instances of the business because we might go well everybody's. You know, we also see that everybody gets stuck at a certain point. You need to make sure that you have people that are there to answer phone calls, even if that has absolutely nothing to do with the business model. But we know people want that, so just give it to them. And we have to have customer service. People, like we don't even have customer service, to be like it's a sales tool, right, like so we never know what the heck is going to go on. But we, but you're definitely better off assessing the holistic environment, and if you're doing a study anyway, you can do it. \n\nYou just got to make sure that who you're working with knows that can analyze your entire unit to some extent and help you figure some of that stuff out. \n\nStuart: That piece you mentioned about the competitive analysis often being a kind of a reveal for people, in that they think they've engineered a perfect solution, but there's other products out there that they maybe haven't considered or they consider in a different way that the research then reveals that this is the real competitive and the pinch points. How often is it that people get that results as opposed to? I guess a lot of people go into it with pre-desived expectations of what the results are going to be before they actually come out. Typically are people surprised by the results or do they reinforce what they were thinking? \n\nGrant: We'll do a few things. One of them we call a true share wallet, and what that does is it shows them who else their clients that are competitors or indirect competitors, who else they've hired. \n\nIt could be in management, consulting, it could be in software, it could be in accounting, it could be, in almost any business service in this type of example, and they're typically shocked to find out how high the number of their customers it's typically a very high. We delivered one this week and their actual share of what was 83%. So that means 83% of their customers were also using a direct competitor and it gives them a lot of like. \n\nTheir initial reaction is oh crap, and I got to stop them and go not. Oh crap, oh good. And they're like what do you mean? We're like well, look, what that means is what you do is important to that person, so that's a good thing. Just because they're using another solution provider does not mean they don't like you. It means they really like the thing and that's great. \n\nYou need more of those people and you shouldn't look at it as, oh, we're losing money and a share of wallets is other organization. You should be counting your lucky stars that you are able to identify customer that loves what you do so much that they're willing to hire multiple providers to do it. So that's typically a shock when we show people that analysis, because they don't. You know, it's the same thing is true for us. You know. Many of our especially larger customers have several market research providers that do various things. We have one very specific thing that we do really well, and so we do that thing. But they also like industry researchers and other types of things that they do, and I don't care, I love if they like research. I want to be friendly. \n\nStuart: Thank you. So, understanding that the industry, the solution is important to them, and then niching down to the real service that you can provide much better than the competitors, that's such a huge advantage and simplifies even when the business owners point of view, simplifies the whole model and way of thinking, because it does constrain the scope to being an expert in this area. And now you've evidence that the area is big enough, that there's a market there that you can serve. It's trying to be too many things to too many people. It just is very, it's very thin. The book business, I mean there's. We've been doing this for over 10 years now and in that time there's many competitors have come up, but our unique approach to the way that we do it is pretty distinct from the others and the others. If someone wants a New York Times bestseller, then our solution isn't best for them. It's a different offering. \n\nGrant: Yeah, that was one of my favorite things about your brand is that you very much know who you are and you communicate it overtly. And one of my first takeaways is everybody, if we're being really honest with ourselves, a book is a solution to a mental barrier. It's. This person has credibility and they know what you're talking about. And you said it earlier about how it's a step to get someone to the next thing. It's exactly right. And if we're being honest with ourselves as potential authors, that is what we want. What else do we want? We want to make millions of dollars selling a book. It's not going to happen, but if it can get us in the door or provide some differentiation from other service providers, that's an insanely valuable tool. \n\nAnd most people that would be a competitor of yours. I don't think they'd have the balls to say that, even though it's exactly true and it's precisely what the author is thinking in their head. They're just not saying it out loud. You know why? Because we lie right, and I said earlier, we lie Because we don't want to say hey, look, man, I don't really care if this is a New York Times, I don't care. I don't even care if people read it. I want them to read the title, see my name and I want them to go. This person has credibility. Therefore I'm going to take a meeting or therefore I'm going to have them come speak at my event. That's all I want. We don't say that to the book people Because it sounds like it's so socially acceptable. It is a white lie that hides the real nuance of the value of the product. \n\nStuart: Of what they're trying to do, that ability, I think, the discipline that you bring to the conversation around cutting to the chase of what's the actual outcome that we're interested in and understanding that everyone's what actually comes out of their mouth isn't necessarily the truth, even if it's not quite a lie, but that really is the ability to cut through to what's important and what moves the needle, and I think that was what really stood out in our early conversation and bridging the gap in my head at least, between market research which I'd always previously thought of as a big surveying people on the phone or on the street, and hundreds of thousands of dollars, through to a smaller project that's trying to answer one particular question or one particular set of questions that really moves the needle. On the business front, we started off by saying that market research or you were saying market research isn't the most interesting of subjects. But four minutes in and I can think of another 40 minutes worth of questions we should do a follow-up show, maybe a little bit further down the track, maybe actually maybe we'll get some feedback from the audience and pick up on some of their questions and follow up there. But one of the things I definitely wanted to touch on before we run out of time was this idea of the audience listening to this are going to be business owners in real locations dealing with 100 to 1000 real customers. \n\nTheir ability to use market research or to kick off a market research project where they may be trying to I don't even know that it's so much rolling out a brand new project, because we don't tend to deal with that many startup type organizations. It tends to be more organization to maybe try to pivot or get a better market message, kind of tie their message in with what they're doing. Are there any clients you've worked with before who are maybe at the end of the spectrum, who are real, not real businesses, but not big organizations with big budgets, but they're small organizations that are trying to fix one particular problem. I'm trying to put the scope of it in to really get the penny to drop for people as they listen to this and how it could resonate and work for them. \n\nGrant: Yeah, even when we do work for big companies, we're typically only tackling one situation, so a lot of times we think of things in situational terms. By the way, a lot of people buy in situations as well, so it's an important distinction to make. When you're thinking about your customers, that's going to die a tribe, but people think like demographics and psychographics. \n\nThese are important things, but no, they're not. We think of them as coincidences. If it were that easy, we wouldn't need to come up with value propositions. We would just say dear female between the ages of 25 to 35, that's not. They happen to be like there's something about their life stage and how they view the world, or what they believe or what they're trying to accomplish that is driving them towards. Your product has nothing to do. The demographic characteristics are only a reasonable targeting mechanism that allows us to like easily wrap our head around. You know, we should go talk to this group of people and we're going to be more successful. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nGrant: But we're typically only tackling one kind of idea and that's how people work. It's not like when we meet someone they're like well, we're trying to grow and scale. You know, we're at we're $5 million right now and we're trying to get to 10. So here are the eight things that are keeping us from getting there. Most people don't even know that there's one thing that's really driving them nuts. They're like if we could just figure out why people aren't doing this, or if we could figure out how to get people to do this, we can get there. \n\nSo that's a type of that's the type of thing we typically work on is all right, well, we'll go tackle that for you. We'll get some stuff around the periphery, but that, if we tell you that answer, you'll know what to do. You either can't do anything right, it's uncontrollable variables and we can figure that out or we could say do this, do that, and you're the needle's going to start moving. So it is. It's not comprehensive. I would say that. But I think being comprehensive is a weakness because, again, if I gave you eight things to do, you're not going to do them all. \n\nBut, if I give you a solution to one thing that you think is really keeping you from growing, you're going to execute on it. That's start moving the needle. \n\nStuart: What about in terms of organizations or industries? So there are any. When you think about your ideal clients or the people you can help the best, are there any types of businesses or types of questions that they're trying to resolve that you can best help them with? \n\nGrant: Yeah. So I would say somebody like me should know that answer. But the reality is no. If you have something that is keeping you from growing, moving your business to the next level, pivoting, launching a new product and you believe that the answer lies in understanding people and if you understand people you can be more successful then you're probably our target market and some which sounds weird you'd be like well, why wouldn't you think that's important? Some people don't. Some people we found we'll tell them exactly what to do. Here's a funny story. \n\nWe had a guy that had a business that had. It was a retail type of business. They had like 10 locations and the math was starting to not look so great. So we figured it out. We said this is what's going on, this is what you need to do. Here are the three things you need to do to course correct. And if you do those things, this will work. And I said but I do have bad news. I don't see another solution. So if you don't do this, you're probably it's probably going to be bad news. \n\nHe chose not to do it. He chose to do what he wanted, what he was thinking of doing before engaging in research, and it didn't work. I'm not going to tell you what business it was in, but he called me because he was in bankruptcy. And he called me and he said you know what? You told me what to do. I should my ego was big, I should have listened. I'd like to send you this. It was a very expensive product, which is what the company sold. I'll send you this as a way to say I'm sorry and I'm like you're not going to do that and but I was going to take it. And then he called me like a couple of weeks later and he goes. My lawyer just told me that I'm not allowed to give away any product. All of our assets are in bankruptcy, so I can't even do that. But it was so. People choose to ignore the research because we're human beings. \n\nYou can burn it down, do what you want. \n\nStuart: Right and with that, people are human beings and us as business owners fall into that category and our customers fall into that category and the partners that we work with fall into that category. So having a way of slicing through, which is, to a certain degree, what we try and do with the books, but it's nowhere near as it's a record and a kind of a direction that we try and push people, but it's still a record to have access to your tools and insights and the ability for you guys to go out there and actually test and get some data that supports that which, of the reckons we should pick it really downs in. So, hopefully, as people are listening to this they're already listening and on our list because they've got a predilection for being a little bit more targeted, going for that single target audience, understanding that there's stepping stones in the campaign. So to be able to now layer on a framework for the. It's the emotional decisions that people make that drive all of their decisions, on 97% of their decisions, depending which camp you're in, but all of the decisions in see taking those next steps. \n\nI'm just really excited to be able to share this with people and give them the opportunity to learn more about what you guys do and hopefully it reinforces the message that we're giving in that the single target market is the way to go and specific single job of work is the best approach. But then, as I say, people now have a resource to reach out to you guys and engage you with when they've got that really pressing problem that they want to solve. So, with that being said, want to make sure that people do have access to you and the team over there. Where's a good place for people to check out more if they, as they resonate with this, and want to find out more? \n\nGrant: Our company is called www.proofpositioning.com or you can Google my name, Grant Gooding. I have a weird name, which is good. There is another, Grant Gooding, that apparently is a very talented swimmer, I think in Virginia, maybe close to here. Anyway, I'm not a swimmer. \n\nStuart: On the other one, If they're Googling and see the picture of the guy in the trunks, it's not you. \n\nGrant: I'll be the one, probably in the dress shirt, not in the, that would be. \n\nStuart: Good way of telling. Well, we'll put links to. I'll put links to your LinkedIn profile and the company site in the show notes, so that's definitely going to be the easiest way of people getting straight through. So make sure that people can find out. You mentioned before there was an article you wrote that was talking about the psychological element. So I'm guessing that's a lot of the articles, but one particularly Is that on the blog on the site. Is that where you put a lot of the content, or is that usually on LinkedIn? \n\nGrant: That? What Are you talking about? The Atonio de Massio word? \n\nYeah, I think so that should be a book, in my opinion. No one has written that book. It's a very compelling story. Maybe in our follow-up I could talk more about the neuroscience behind our process and because it's kind of the whole thing. Yeah, so people do find it very intriguing. We reference his work, but there's like three books I can give you a link. There's like three books that he has written kind of in this space. He was a consciousness theory guy, but I can kind of give you those links. The one that was maybe the most famous is called this Car's Air, and that is where he basically proves out this idea that we are a motive in our decision-making and not logical. \n\nStuart: Okay, perfect. I'll put a link to that one as well, because sometimes people just want to read up more on the subject and progress today on actually making a decision as someone that has to read some of this stuff. \n\nGrant: It is really hard to read the work of a neuroscientist. Right and for other neuroscientists, of which I have not one, and so even reading the executive summaries can be very painful. \n\nStuart: I'll tell you what, then, instead of killing people with that, if I'll jump around on the content that you guys have put out in the past and try and link to something a little bit more useful just talking about the high-level framework as a first step for people to take, so style six and links to the more useful, the less academic stuff in the show notes, we try to simplicity equals value. \n\nYeah, that definitely sounds like a better way, and then people can do their own. If they want to spend a weekend reading some academic stuff, they can do that elsewhere. Fantastic, as always, these podcasts go fast. It would be really interesting to follow up. This show is going to go out in a couple of weeks from the point that we record, so I'll gather some feedback and, if people got questions but as you're listening to this, really encourage headed over to the proof site, because not only is there the stepping stones for taking next steps, there's also some really interesting information on the approach and there's just some graphical representations that it's difficult to get across in the podcast. So definitely recommend people following through on those links as well. Thank you, buddy, it's really been a pleasure. As always, we'll cycle back for sure in a couple of months and I'll make sure that people can link through to you directly and really interested to hear what conversations come from it. \n\nGrant: Do what I appreciate, you brother. \n\nStuart: Okay, well, take care, stay warm, and then we'll talk soon. \n\nGrant: Thank you. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Grant Gooding of Proof Positioning about the secrets of market research for small businesses.
\n\nStarting his career in mergers and acquisitions, Grant was a customer of market research provided by some large organizations. Realizing they were great at providing data but not insights into what the data practically meant, Grant started Proof to bridge that gap and provide actionable market-driven intelligence.
\n\nWe focused our conversation on how market research can help small and medium-sized companies determine what questions matter when growing their business.
\n\nHaving personally had preconceived ideas that market research was only an option for big companies with significant budgets, it was revealing to see just how accessible it is and how Proof's methodology marries with our approach to creating books.
\n\nBoth aim to answer potential clients' most pressing questions and start a conversation.
\n\nThere are a lot of valuable ideas here as you look to use a book to build your business.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nLINKS
\nGrant Gooding - LinkedIn
\nProof Positioning
\nInsights from Proof
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/160
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
EPISODE CHAPTERS
\n(0:00:01) - Market Research for Small Businesses
\n(0:07:23) - Simplifying Market Research Strategies
\n(0:16:58) - Understanding Emotional Decision Making in Business
\n(0:29:02) - Leveraging Market Research for Business Success
\n(0:34:40) - Understanding Customer Behavior and Decision-Making
\n(0:43:00) - Podcast Follow-Up and Future Plans
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nGrant: Very good how you doing bud.
\n\nStuart: Good, good, okay, this one's going to be an interesting one. So we are usually talking with authors about their book and kind of frame and get around that. Grant and I were introduced through someone else on LinkedIn I think it was originally. I'll get Grant to do a proper introduction in a second, but I went into the conversation with the expectation that this would be an interesting connection. But really their business is too separated from what we do day to day. But in the conversation that really turned out not to be the case and I really wanted to get Grant on to share what they can do or their industry with our audience here, because I think it'll be an eye opener for the potential. So, saying that to the side for a second Grant, why don't you give an intro to you and then proof positioning and what the organization is?
\n\nGrant: Sure thanks. I just appreciate that you associate the word interesting with market research. In any capacity, I'll take that as a win, no matter what. No, I appreciate it. Yes, we're a market research company, which is just the sexiest business of all time, I think. Didn't do this on purpose came from the mergers and acquisitions world, so I was a business analyst and was a consumer of market research.
\n\nI had to consume market research in order to do my job and was always, to put it lightly a little disappointed in what was done, what I had to work with and how it would actually translate into helping me understand the businesses that I was charged with analyzing. So sort of you know. You ask the never intending to be an entrepreneur, really just asking stupid questions like why don't?
\n\npeople do it and kind of ended up where we are, which is something I never would have expected, and we have a very unique capability and we it's kind of a fun gig. So we work with all kinds of different sizes of organizations and we've worked with the federal government and agencies and we worked with tiny little startups that are trying to make their way, and it's a fun gig, for sure.
\n\nStuart: I think that's what was interesting, again, being a consumer of market research in a much smaller context than as a business analyst. But you see pieces around and about and have some perceived notion or preconceived notion on what that means, and most of the I guess it's the access to that information. Most of it is coming from big organizations who are trying to nudge people in one direction or another and there's a, I think the book is called. It's either the tiger that isn't or one of the undercover economists books in the UK. They were talking about the nudge unit in the UK which was a government body test with trying to nudge.
\n\nRight, yeah, yeah, I've got that kind of social change to nudge people in the direction that the policy wanted, and a lot of that was based off market research of what the current preconceptions were in the area that they were trying to nudge and then what message can they can send out. So this idea is we were talking that market research is something that's accessible to smaller organizations, not just ones with six, seven figure market research budgets. The audience here, as I mentioned, is mainly small, medium sized business owners or people who are responsible for kind of filling their own book I think that realtors fall into that camp financial advisors. What access do they have to either existing market research that's out there that maybe they can utilize and maybe think about it from the business analyst perspective. And then, moving into, okay, I'm a business owner, I'm launching a product or tweaking a service, and maybe I haven't even considered market research. But what's the easy entry into this world for those people?
\n\nGrant: Yeah, that's a good question. When we first started, we worked with bigger companies, because that's who had budget and that's who knew what market research was and sort of knew how to use it. And then we sort of realized like well, the only reason that market research is used by big organizations is because it's so unbelievably challenging to translate. That's the reason why. So what if we just made it simple to understand?
\n\nStuart: and really anybody could use it.
\n\nGrant: And then we also had to come up with this like sort of good enough type of mentality there's no such thing as perfect research anyway, so why does that have to be so expensive? We utilized software and process a lot to be able to have really affordable prices that allow us to work with just about anybody really, which is part of the challenge of building any business really. But then applying it in a way that made sense to any type of business owner was challenge number two, and the way that we solved for that is we created something. Well, we didn't create that. It's not very creative, but we call it burning questions. We just say what do you want to know? I mean, most of the time no one knows what to do with market research because they get an industry report and it tells them macroeconomic or even microeconomic data and they're like, okay, what am I supposed to?
\n\nStuart: do with. How do I turn this into?
\n\nGrant: money, yeah, and it's really hard for that into money, and so therefore it's probably not a good investment for a lot of companies to invest in that type of thing.
\n\nBut if you have a company like ours that says, well, what's standing in your way from getting to the next stage of your business, there's something, there's a barrier that's keeping you from growing, and typically those barriers are mental things that we need to get past customers or customers and prospects. So why are they not buying this product? We made it for them, they told us they wanted it, we built it and now they're not buying it. So why are they not buying it? Or we thought we would take this existing product and move it into this market. That was really similar and we thought it would totally translate and it's not working. Like, should we abandon this or are we just missing a nuance? And the reality is most people are missing a nuance. They don't understand the competitive landscape. Like they don't understand.
\n\nWell, yes, your solution might work, but, like, say, your software business, your solution might work, but your biggest competitor might be Excel right, which is a free solution, so it's an available alternative and that might be good enough for them. So, even though your solution might make sense in your market, you may have very low probability of being able to sell it in the way that you thought you could. So we can analyze, well, what are the elements of Excel that they like and what are the weaknesses that exist there, and maybe we can translate the weaknesses into an emotional value proposition that will entice someone to buy your product. So we approach research in a way that's highly targeted towards whatever the business wants to get accomplished, and when we do it that way, it's substantially more valuable and people can take action. So when we combine like that sort of ethos with an affordable pricing model, it works.
\n\nIt's like 10 years, so it's not like that we got there.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it looks like a quick journey when you look back, but in the depth of it it takes a long time to get that refined. Refined and approach and actually that's a great point because that probably goes further into the biases that, as an outsider, or preconceived notions that, as an outside, you think OK, market research it's almost just an execution of. I have these questions to ask and responsible for coming up with these questions and delivering the package of questions to someone who then just executes on it. They're interpreting the data at the back end and they're really refining that. What the problem is at the front end Is that perception of a lot of that lands with the business. Is that just the wrong perception or is that how it used to be, or is that what a lot of other big companies do? And then the difference that you're really making is that intelligence around it.
\n\nGrant: So it's true to some extent, but we do a lot of hand holding through the process, because you only know what you know, I mean there are a lot of companies that we work with. They're doing research for the first time ever. So, you know, they're just trying to figure out who are we thinking of, who our customers are. We think they like this Are we missing the boat or should we go? You know, and so what we'll hold on to is that we're going to be able to help guide them through.
\n\nStuart: Well, you don't really want to know that. You really want to know this.
\n\nGrant: So this is the question that we should be asking and then we do all the translation into, like, the types of questions that need to ask. So here's a, here's something we figured out. Most research is done as far as, like, survey work and any type of interview or interpersonal type of research fall is typically done in correct and it's not. It's our natural instinct to engage in interpersonal communication, so it's inductive analysis. I ask you a question, you give me the answer.
\n\nRight, and then I'll take that answer and I'll process that answer with other answers and then I'll find the truth. Well, the reality is that's not a good way to do research at all, and the reason is because people lie, and not necessarily to be deceitful, right, they're not mean or trying to, you know, mess with you. They're giving you a socially acceptable answer, or something that they think you might want to hear, or just the saying the first thing that pops into their head. The nuance is what people buy. People don't buy big stuff, they buy small stuff, they buy the little nuances. That and the way that those little nuances make them feel, and those things can be really lost if you engage in interpersonal methodology for research.
\n\nSo we use a methodology called abduction, which is sort of the exact opposite and well, not the exact opposite, but very different and it's more like crime scene investigation. We don't really want to ask any questions, we want to analyze every variable and then we'll reverse engineer the solution. So, as a, for instance, let's say, I want to know why someone is not buying a product. I don't, I may not even ask them that question, I may not which would be like why wouldn't you ask them why they're not buying it? They're like well, because they're going to, they're going to give me an answer that's not, oh, it's too expensive. Well, that's not true. Right Like that means you've not been able to provide strong emotional value and that value is not translated into a sale. So instead I want to analyze what's important to this person.
\n\nWho are they? What's their role? What's their what? Where are they in a buying matrix? Who are they? A decision maker, are they an influencer? And then I'm going to analyze all this stuff around them and then I can very accurately infer why they're not buying. And it's a little bit weird and uncomfortable for people and there's and it's very challenging for someone to be able to do that if they're not familiar with the methodology or how to do that analysis. So we kind of walk them through really, what do you want to know? We kind of handle all the nerdy back and stuff. We don't even tell them as much as I just told you.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nGrant: Right, they don't they don't they tonight yeah.
\n\nYeah, and you know most people really don't care, and that's something we test, by the way. No one cares how the sausage is made. If you talk about what your business does and how it works, I assure you you are losing money If you do that because no one cares. We had an article we wrote called your customers don't care about you, where we analyze that mathematically and have very accurate results. And it's sadly true, no one cares. And so and then on the back end, all we have kind of this rule. There's like this rule of three.
\n\nI don't know where this came from, but I don't know who said this, but it's sort of true and brilliant in its simplicity and that's if you give someone three things to do, they'll do all three, and if you give them four, they'll do zero. So so we analyze all their burning questions. So why aren't they buying this product? Who are the? What's a competitive matrix look like? What should we be saying to them? Right, can we upsell them this product?
\n\nWe analyze whatever they want and then we look at the biggest areas of opportunity that exists and then we make those recommendations at the end. So it's not just handing somebody a bunch of data, it's saying, hey, this is a, this is one of your questions. Here's the answer, and these are the three things that you should do in order to activate on that and and make and to change behavior. If you want to get someone to buy, do these three things and they will start buying. You know, and so you. If you put output like that, the average person will knows how to consume it. They can even hand it to someone else on their team that wasn't involved in the process and they know what to do.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's actionable and useful. It's not just giving someone homework to go and interpret and add in another layer of, of, of perception or whatever position they're in. It's actually just giving them some steps that they can follow through and then test the results of those. Yeah.
\n\nGrant: It was getting simple stuff like that right that made a really big difference in, because I remember years ago we would give someone stuff that was right, we like here's the output, and they wouldn't do anything and we thought it was their fault. They're like I think it's our fault. I think we're not giving this to them in a way where they can understand it simply and easily take action. And you know the old rule of thumb where, like the most, the things with the most value are the most simple Right. And I was like we were too complicated so we just constantly try to.
\n\nStuart: There's a need, and we've all found this as well. There is a need to over complicate things and try and give perceived value through complexity, whereas the reality is, if you can get their outputs as simple as possible and then, if they actually execute an action, take action on it. We have it with. So the book set up in most of our models is pick the single target market, decide what the quarter action is, what the next step is that you want them to do, and the book is then the mechanism for getting to this output, whether or not people read it or not, and the way that they get from A to B, from cover to cover, is just, almost.
\n\nJust think about the table of contents and if someone just saw that as signposts, is that communicating the right language? Is it giving them the friendly feeling? Is it moving them in that direction or taking that small next step? But it's so easy to get caught up in the production side of things, and when we look back at some of the completed jobs and if far too much of their effort has been on the from the point that they record the content on the production side, if that takes way longer than the getting to the content side, then it's a sign that I went a bit awry. And if there's, as an emails to, or not a thousand, but 10 emails just to do the production steps, which really should be one email, it's the effort is in the wrong place.
\n\nGrant: That's Anybody. How we trick ourselves into thinking that complexity equals greater value.
\n\nStuart: Right, right yeah.
\n\nGrant: It's just opposite.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, particularly now. I mean I think maybe 20, 30 years ago there might have been. When you think about, I mean, I can remember working in I think we're a similar age I'll use this if I'm aging but I can remember being in a job pre email. Someone had email addresses. There were no websites, it was all phone based stuff, and there was an element of that kind of technological transition where more really was more, as new things came up in new capabilities, landing pages, email sequences, chatbots, all of these things where more could be more.
\n\nI think there was an element of okay, we need to do new stuff, but now, at a stage where the noise is so great, there's so much stuff that could be done, you really need to simplify and then dial in on the stuff that moves the needle, which I think then ties back to what you're doing. A company, I imagine, would come to you with a problem and the answer could be 50 things Maybe they could have a good shot and narrowing it down to 25. But through the research, really finding the three that move the needle, I guess that's what makes the real difference. It's not just an academic exercise.
\n\nGrant: Yeah that's if you really nerd out about what research is. It's not if people say, well, they think we find the correct solution, but the reality is we try to give options that are all correct so the company can take the path that is most aligned with who they are. There are values and how they wanna grow their company. There's just one solution. We are actually a variable eliminator. So you're right. At any like, the most challenging business problems are the ones that have 50 correct solutions, and we just have a really interesting mechanism that allows us to say that's true, but these 46 aren't gonna yield you as much money, or they're just not. You know, the messaging stays like a word. So here's four options. All four of these are going to work to some extent. This one's gonna work better than all of them, but that doesn't mean you have to do that, and it's much more. This is something that was we took us a while to figure out as well, but we would always say well, let's really show the highest mathematically performing strategy intact.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nGrant: And again people wouldn't do them and we were like, well, why not? You're like, well, it's because people are people and they're gonna. You know it's like it's their company. They can burn it to the ground if they want. Give them options and let them make that. You know, make that justification on their own, because they may not wanna do that thing right.
\n\nStuart: Maybe like that.
\n\nGrant: I don't like the way that feels no.
\n\nStuart: That's the interesting piece, which almost ties into the whole market research. Element of it's the answers that people give if you're doing the direct asking unnecessarily, the answers that are the right answers or the answers that there are the truth. I guess giving people the three or four options that make sense. You don't know why someone doesn't picks one over another. It might be some completely unrelated business reason that they just don't wanna do it. But at least given them the options of the mathematically best answers, it means that they're more likely to be successful than anything else.
\n\nGrant: Well, the reason is the same reason that we do research in the first place, and that's people are different, right, you know? And in many ways we are barely different from our 13 year old selves. A lot of the social biases and beliefs that exist are concreted in our brain around the age of 13. So what kind of the product of our parents in many ways. And those beliefs are changed only through immersion or trauma. So immersion would be like college, for instance. You are in an immersive environment where you're there all the time and you're surrounded by different viewpoints and those viewpoints can change your belief system. Trauma, either emotional trauma or actual head trauma, can change your beliefs as well, but that's really it.
\n\nSo we make irrational decisions. This is sort of the basis of our research is around emotional resonance testing, which I don't know if that's ever nerdy enough to go into. People care about that, but we didn't figure this out. But the fact of the matter is we make almost every decision, and I say almost because there are some detractor neuroscientists that believe approximately 3% of our decisions are made with our smart brain and those are the detractors.
\n\nStuart: So those are the ones that are like we're not emotive creatures.
\n\nGrant: We don't make emotional. We don't make 100%. I personally believe approximately 100% of our decisions are made with our emotive brain, and part of the reason of that is I see irrational things all the time in our data that make absolutely no sense at all. But then also look at the world. You think we're a rational species. I mean, come on. I mean, basically, what happens is information comes into the amygdala of the brain, it's sent back to the limbic system, which is where our social belief system is, it's where a lot of our instincts are, and then we go.
\n\nIf we don't understand something, it's too complicated. It's a very good rule of thumb for any business owner. If the information is too complicated, it will go from the decision making part of the brain up into here. So Antonio DeMascio, who's the most cited neuroscientist in history, now basically concluded that the brain, the frontal below here, which is what we do like engineering and mathematics with His estimation is that 0% of our decisions come out of that part of our brain. What happens is the limbic system talks to it when there's something complicated that doesn't understand it. It gives output back to the dumb emotional brain and then the emotional brain is like okay and it does whatever that's on the way.
\n\nIf you're looking at a salad in a cheeseburger, I mean, look at human beings. We, you know it's just, and even you would say, oh well, the, if we chose the salad, that's a rational decision. But like, no, it's not. That's still emotional, Right, You're doing it because you want to improve yourself image, or you're doing it because you know what I mean. There's some emotive reason. You're doing that as well, or anyway. So we have a metric that allows us to identify if someone's making an emotional decision or if they're making a logical decision. And if they're making a logical decision, our advice is don't do that thing, Because you're literally talking to a part of the brain that is not going to output a decision. So use the emotionally resonant messages and you're going to be more successful is a mathematical certainty.
\n\nStuart: So that's an interesting point Because when we say again, turn it back to the book audience, it's easy to think about the book as an academic project because all of our experiences around books being academic I mean particularly I mean maybe fiction at one end, but even fiction you go back to, like English lessons and having to write things in and get marked, so it's naturally sits in that camp.
\n\nAnd then when we're talking about how do people resonate and get that conversation going with people in order to they want to make the next step. We then layer on the point that we said before about everyone thinks they're more complicated is better and want to demonstrate how clever we are and how are things unique and different. But really the emotional connection to the problem and the emotional resolution triggers in the chapter titles that move people towards that next step, which is the call to action and the reach out and call me or fill out this form, whatever the next step is having that connected with emotional outcomes way more than technical solutions or superior solutions. That seems like it would be far more effective tool.
\n\nGrant: People are very frustrated when we show them that they're incredibly sophisticated fancy pants thing is irrelevant, but the fact that someone will answer their phone call, they're like that's the thing. The idea how long this took us to make that, yeah, like what are you doing for them that allows them to improve their life? And if you're not focused on that, you're focused on the wrong thing. I do think, speaking of that sort of targeted message, your books do that. Well, we always try to do what we call probably not all that appropriately punch somebody in the face. If you punch somebody in the face, you got their attention and there's no better way to do that than to have a highly specific, highly niche conversation.
\n\nThe problem with how our dumb brain works is that anytime we're especially going to put a book out, I like that you talk about how it's like sort of an academic, like we throw note as an academic thing when textbooks are big and they cover lots of subjects.
\n\nBut that's a four way like your brain wants to do that, because you're like well, if I'm going to write this book, but it's only right if I'm going to write a book and it's only going to talk about how to transition my business to my children, like, oh my God. But there's so much more like, let's just look at our client base, like that's just a part of our business model. Those are great clients, those legacy clients are great to have, but my God, look how much we're leaving on the table. So we should have chapters that are about other stuff too. And they start increasing the scope and increasing the scope and increasing the scope and the next thing you know, you got a textbook that no one cares about. So having a highly niche product that speaks to a very specific audience and punches them in the face will be substantially more effective than just poking a whole bunch of people.
\n\nStuart: If I can get your phone number so we can send them, all our clients, through to you to reinforce that message first, that will go along.
\n\nGrant: It's not me, it's a physiological certainty, Like that's the way we work.
\n\nStuart: It's so interesting I mean, tying back to that point of simplicity is the solution that everyone's looking for and almost the product, particularly, I think, with the majority of people that we're working with the books on a fiction product to a no one's buying a book to be entertained.
\n\nThe job of work of the book isn't the words in the page. The job of work is to move people to the next step and help them get one step closer to the solution, whether they're doing that themselves or whether they need you to do that. So, with that in mind, making those steps as simple as possible and the fact that this piece of the puzzle is one in a multi-step stage, how do you find the clients that come to you and the work that they engage? Is the scope relatively constrained and they're trying to get you to fix one problem but maybe not the rest of the business? Or do a lot of people think about the emotional triggers that you're uncovering? They then look at that as information that can flow through to the rest of the business. Are they trying to fix just a marketing problem or just a product problem, when really the triggers are applicable across the board?
\n\nGrant: Most of the time, we're going to force them even if they don't want to look at a moralistic environment around the business.
\n\nBecause like I said, it may not be the product, it may be how the market is looking at an available alternative and that could be devastating to the business. So we may look at, like the Excel example I gave, we may go all right. So the biggest issue people have with Excel when they're trying to solve this problem that your comprehensive software solves is X. So we know that we will have a higher mathematical probability to create interest if we talk about X. So that is not only a marketing solution but it's also a product of development solution, like when you're talking about your product. That needs to be the first thing. And, by the way, if you talk about a second thing and a third thing and a fourth thing, every time you do that you're actually decreasing the value in their head because they may not need that, like I just needed to do this and so to only talk about that one thing. And then you need to make sure that the product is engineered in a way that allows them to take advantage of that particular characteristic as soon as possible.
\n\nSo it may be that we'll come out of this with a very comprehensive, very accurate messaging or marketing strategy, but it might touch several other instances of the business because we might go well everybody's. You know, we also see that everybody gets stuck at a certain point. You need to make sure that you have people that are there to answer phone calls, even if that has absolutely nothing to do with the business model. But we know people want that, so just give it to them. And we have to have customer service. People, like we don't even have customer service, to be like it's a sales tool, right, like so we never know what the heck is going to go on. But we, but you're definitely better off assessing the holistic environment, and if you're doing a study anyway, you can do it.
\n\nYou just got to make sure that who you're working with knows that can analyze your entire unit to some extent and help you figure some of that stuff out.
\n\nStuart: That piece you mentioned about the competitive analysis often being a kind of a reveal for people, in that they think they've engineered a perfect solution, but there's other products out there that they maybe haven't considered or they consider in a different way that the research then reveals that this is the real competitive and the pinch points. How often is it that people get that results as opposed to? I guess a lot of people go into it with pre-desived expectations of what the results are going to be before they actually come out. Typically are people surprised by the results or do they reinforce what they were thinking?
\n\nGrant: We'll do a few things. One of them we call a true share wallet, and what that does is it shows them who else their clients that are competitors or indirect competitors, who else they've hired.
\n\nIt could be in management, consulting, it could be in software, it could be in accounting, it could be, in almost any business service in this type of example, and they're typically shocked to find out how high the number of their customers it's typically a very high. We delivered one this week and their actual share of what was 83%. So that means 83% of their customers were also using a direct competitor and it gives them a lot of like.
\n\nTheir initial reaction is oh crap, and I got to stop them and go not. Oh crap, oh good. And they're like what do you mean? We're like well, look, what that means is what you do is important to that person, so that's a good thing. Just because they're using another solution provider does not mean they don't like you. It means they really like the thing and that's great.
\n\nYou need more of those people and you shouldn't look at it as, oh, we're losing money and a share of wallets is other organization. You should be counting your lucky stars that you are able to identify customer that loves what you do so much that they're willing to hire multiple providers to do it. So that's typically a shock when we show people that analysis, because they don't. You know, it's the same thing is true for us. You know. Many of our especially larger customers have several market research providers that do various things. We have one very specific thing that we do really well, and so we do that thing. But they also like industry researchers and other types of things that they do, and I don't care, I love if they like research. I want to be friendly.
\n\nStuart: Thank you. So, understanding that the industry, the solution is important to them, and then niching down to the real service that you can provide much better than the competitors, that's such a huge advantage and simplifies even when the business owners point of view, simplifies the whole model and way of thinking, because it does constrain the scope to being an expert in this area. And now you've evidence that the area is big enough, that there's a market there that you can serve. It's trying to be too many things to too many people. It just is very, it's very thin. The book business, I mean there's. We've been doing this for over 10 years now and in that time there's many competitors have come up, but our unique approach to the way that we do it is pretty distinct from the others and the others. If someone wants a New York Times bestseller, then our solution isn't best for them. It's a different offering.
\n\nGrant: Yeah, that was one of my favorite things about your brand is that you very much know who you are and you communicate it overtly. And one of my first takeaways is everybody, if we're being really honest with ourselves, a book is a solution to a mental barrier. It's. This person has credibility and they know what you're talking about. And you said it earlier about how it's a step to get someone to the next thing. It's exactly right. And if we're being honest with ourselves as potential authors, that is what we want. What else do we want? We want to make millions of dollars selling a book. It's not going to happen, but if it can get us in the door or provide some differentiation from other service providers, that's an insanely valuable tool.
\n\nAnd most people that would be a competitor of yours. I don't think they'd have the balls to say that, even though it's exactly true and it's precisely what the author is thinking in their head. They're just not saying it out loud. You know why? Because we lie right, and I said earlier, we lie Because we don't want to say hey, look, man, I don't really care if this is a New York Times, I don't care. I don't even care if people read it. I want them to read the title, see my name and I want them to go. This person has credibility. Therefore I'm going to take a meeting or therefore I'm going to have them come speak at my event. That's all I want. We don't say that to the book people Because it sounds like it's so socially acceptable. It is a white lie that hides the real nuance of the value of the product.
\n\nStuart: Of what they're trying to do, that ability, I think, the discipline that you bring to the conversation around cutting to the chase of what's the actual outcome that we're interested in and understanding that everyone's what actually comes out of their mouth isn't necessarily the truth, even if it's not quite a lie, but that really is the ability to cut through to what's important and what moves the needle, and I think that was what really stood out in our early conversation and bridging the gap in my head at least, between market research which I'd always previously thought of as a big surveying people on the phone or on the street, and hundreds of thousands of dollars, through to a smaller project that's trying to answer one particular question or one particular set of questions that really moves the needle. On the business front, we started off by saying that market research or you were saying market research isn't the most interesting of subjects. But four minutes in and I can think of another 40 minutes worth of questions we should do a follow-up show, maybe a little bit further down the track, maybe actually maybe we'll get some feedback from the audience and pick up on some of their questions and follow up there. But one of the things I definitely wanted to touch on before we run out of time was this idea of the audience listening to this are going to be business owners in real locations dealing with 100 to 1000 real customers.
\n\nTheir ability to use market research or to kick off a market research project where they may be trying to I don't even know that it's so much rolling out a brand new project, because we don't tend to deal with that many startup type organizations. It tends to be more organization to maybe try to pivot or get a better market message, kind of tie their message in with what they're doing. Are there any clients you've worked with before who are maybe at the end of the spectrum, who are real, not real businesses, but not big organizations with big budgets, but they're small organizations that are trying to fix one particular problem. I'm trying to put the scope of it in to really get the penny to drop for people as they listen to this and how it could resonate and work for them.
\n\nGrant: Yeah, even when we do work for big companies, we're typically only tackling one situation, so a lot of times we think of things in situational terms. By the way, a lot of people buy in situations as well, so it's an important distinction to make. When you're thinking about your customers, that's going to die a tribe, but people think like demographics and psychographics.
\n\nThese are important things, but no, they're not. We think of them as coincidences. If it were that easy, we wouldn't need to come up with value propositions. We would just say dear female between the ages of 25 to 35, that's not. They happen to be like there's something about their life stage and how they view the world, or what they believe or what they're trying to accomplish that is driving them towards. Your product has nothing to do. The demographic characteristics are only a reasonable targeting mechanism that allows us to like easily wrap our head around. You know, we should go talk to this group of people and we're going to be more successful.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nGrant: But we're typically only tackling one kind of idea and that's how people work. It's not like when we meet someone they're like well, we're trying to grow and scale. You know, we're at we're $5 million right now and we're trying to get to 10. So here are the eight things that are keeping us from getting there. Most people don't even know that there's one thing that's really driving them nuts. They're like if we could just figure out why people aren't doing this, or if we could figure out how to get people to do this, we can get there.
\n\nSo that's a type of that's the type of thing we typically work on is all right, well, we'll go tackle that for you. We'll get some stuff around the periphery, but that, if we tell you that answer, you'll know what to do. You either can't do anything right, it's uncontrollable variables and we can figure that out or we could say do this, do that, and you're the needle's going to start moving. So it is. It's not comprehensive. I would say that. But I think being comprehensive is a weakness because, again, if I gave you eight things to do, you're not going to do them all.
\n\nBut, if I give you a solution to one thing that you think is really keeping you from growing, you're going to execute on it. That's start moving the needle.
\n\nStuart: What about in terms of organizations or industries? So there are any. When you think about your ideal clients or the people you can help the best, are there any types of businesses or types of questions that they're trying to resolve that you can best help them with?
\n\nGrant: Yeah. So I would say somebody like me should know that answer. But the reality is no. If you have something that is keeping you from growing, moving your business to the next level, pivoting, launching a new product and you believe that the answer lies in understanding people and if you understand people you can be more successful then you're probably our target market and some which sounds weird you'd be like well, why wouldn't you think that's important? Some people don't. Some people we found we'll tell them exactly what to do. Here's a funny story.
\n\nWe had a guy that had a business that had. It was a retail type of business. They had like 10 locations and the math was starting to not look so great. So we figured it out. We said this is what's going on, this is what you need to do. Here are the three things you need to do to course correct. And if you do those things, this will work. And I said but I do have bad news. I don't see another solution. So if you don't do this, you're probably it's probably going to be bad news.
\n\nHe chose not to do it. He chose to do what he wanted, what he was thinking of doing before engaging in research, and it didn't work. I'm not going to tell you what business it was in, but he called me because he was in bankruptcy. And he called me and he said you know what? You told me what to do. I should my ego was big, I should have listened. I'd like to send you this. It was a very expensive product, which is what the company sold. I'll send you this as a way to say I'm sorry and I'm like you're not going to do that and but I was going to take it. And then he called me like a couple of weeks later and he goes. My lawyer just told me that I'm not allowed to give away any product. All of our assets are in bankruptcy, so I can't even do that. But it was so. People choose to ignore the research because we're human beings.
\n\nYou can burn it down, do what you want.
\n\nStuart: Right and with that, people are human beings and us as business owners fall into that category and our customers fall into that category and the partners that we work with fall into that category. So having a way of slicing through, which is, to a certain degree, what we try and do with the books, but it's nowhere near as it's a record and a kind of a direction that we try and push people, but it's still a record to have access to your tools and insights and the ability for you guys to go out there and actually test and get some data that supports that which, of the reckons we should pick it really downs in. So, hopefully, as people are listening to this they're already listening and on our list because they've got a predilection for being a little bit more targeted, going for that single target audience, understanding that there's stepping stones in the campaign. So to be able to now layer on a framework for the. It's the emotional decisions that people make that drive all of their decisions, on 97% of their decisions, depending which camp you're in, but all of the decisions in see taking those next steps.
\n\nI'm just really excited to be able to share this with people and give them the opportunity to learn more about what you guys do and hopefully it reinforces the message that we're giving in that the single target market is the way to go and specific single job of work is the best approach. But then, as I say, people now have a resource to reach out to you guys and engage you with when they've got that really pressing problem that they want to solve. So, with that being said, want to make sure that people do have access to you and the team over there. Where's a good place for people to check out more if they, as they resonate with this, and want to find out more?
\n\nGrant: Our company is called www.proofpositioning.com or you can Google my name, Grant Gooding. I have a weird name, which is good. There is another, Grant Gooding, that apparently is a very talented swimmer, I think in Virginia, maybe close to here. Anyway, I'm not a swimmer.
\n\nStuart: On the other one, If they're Googling and see the picture of the guy in the trunks, it's not you.
\n\nGrant: I'll be the one, probably in the dress shirt, not in the, that would be.
\n\nStuart: Good way of telling. Well, we'll put links to. I'll put links to your LinkedIn profile and the company site in the show notes, so that's definitely going to be the easiest way of people getting straight through. So make sure that people can find out. You mentioned before there was an article you wrote that was talking about the psychological element. So I'm guessing that's a lot of the articles, but one particularly Is that on the blog on the site. Is that where you put a lot of the content, or is that usually on LinkedIn?
\n\nGrant: That? What Are you talking about? The Atonio de Massio word?
\n\nYeah, I think so that should be a book, in my opinion. No one has written that book. It's a very compelling story. Maybe in our follow-up I could talk more about the neuroscience behind our process and because it's kind of the whole thing. Yeah, so people do find it very intriguing. We reference his work, but there's like three books I can give you a link. There's like three books that he has written kind of in this space. He was a consciousness theory guy, but I can kind of give you those links. The one that was maybe the most famous is called this Car's Air, and that is where he basically proves out this idea that we are a motive in our decision-making and not logical.
\n\nStuart: Okay, perfect. I'll put a link to that one as well, because sometimes people just want to read up more on the subject and progress today on actually making a decision as someone that has to read some of this stuff.
\n\nGrant: It is really hard to read the work of a neuroscientist. Right and for other neuroscientists, of which I have not one, and so even reading the executive summaries can be very painful.
\n\nStuart: I'll tell you what, then, instead of killing people with that, if I'll jump around on the content that you guys have put out in the past and try and link to something a little bit more useful just talking about the high-level framework as a first step for people to take, so style six and links to the more useful, the less academic stuff in the show notes, we try to simplicity equals value.
\n\nYeah, that definitely sounds like a better way, and then people can do their own. If they want to spend a weekend reading some academic stuff, they can do that elsewhere. Fantastic, as always, these podcasts go fast. It would be really interesting to follow up. This show is going to go out in a couple of weeks from the point that we record, so I'll gather some feedback and, if people got questions but as you're listening to this, really encourage headed over to the proof site, because not only is there the stepping stones for taking next steps, there's also some really interesting information on the approach and there's just some graphical representations that it's difficult to get across in the podcast. So definitely recommend people following through on those links as well. Thank you, buddy, it's really been a pleasure. As always, we'll cycle back for sure in a couple of months and I'll make sure that people can link through to you directly and really interested to hear what conversations come from it.
\n\nGrant: Do what I appreciate, you brother.
\n\nStuart: Okay, well, take care, stay warm, and then we'll talk soon.
\n\nGrant: Thank you.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Grant Gooding of Proof Positioning about the secrets of market research for small businesses.\r\n\r\nStarting his career in mergers and acquisitions, Grant was a customer of market research provided by some large organizations. Realizing they were great at providing data but not insights into what the data practically meant, Grant started Proof to bridge that gap and provide actionable market-driven intelligence.\r\n\r\nWe focused our conversation on how market research can help small and medium-sized companies determine what questions matter when growing their business. \r\n\r\nHaving personally had preconceived ideas that market research was only an option for big companies with significant budgets, it was revealing to see just how accessible it is and how Proof's methodology marries with our approach to creating books.\r\n\r\nBoth aim to answer potential clients' most pressing questions and start a conversation.\r\n\r\nThere are a lot of valuable ideas here as you look to use a book to build your business.","date_published":"2024-03-10T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/3891a6e4-d51b-4110-a14b-858523e1aa23.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":32441835,"duration_in_seconds":2640}]},{"id":"9ed76d40-56d4-42bc-8763-91d6b0fec718","title":"Ep159: Your Next AI Assistant with Aalok Y Shukla","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/159","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, I'm joined by my good friend Aalok Y Shukla, Cofounder at Implement AI, as we discover the potential of voice AI. \n\nI've known Aalok for more than a decade. He's always been fast to adopt new technologies, so it was no surprise to see him, along with his cofounder Piers Linney, launch Implement AI, an organization dedicated to helping companies adapt to the new AI world.\n\nThey have just launched an amazing interactive voice agent, and our discussion traces its evolution into empathetic systems, exploring tone, accent, and personalized experiences. \n\nWe talked about Aalok's mother's encounter with their AI agent, and we shared my interaction and how impressed I was at the AI's seamless conversation skills.\n\nWrapping up, we examine Agents role in redefining lead capture and management through fast follow-up tailored to each customer and reshaping customer service, sales and personalized outreach.\n\nEarly in the show I've inserted my audio with the AI. The recording is from the server side, and it's amazing to hear how conversational the AI is, even with my bad cell phone connection. It's well worth a listen.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Aalok Y Shukla from Implement AI and discuss the evolution of voice AI into empathetic, human-like systems that enhance customer interactions.\n Aalok describes a voice AI agent's warm and intuitive interaction through a personal anecdote involving his mother, highlighting the system's empathetic nature.\n We touch on the importance of tone and accent in voice AI to create engaging experiences, even when the accent is not localized.\n I share my experience with an AI call system, noting its human-like interaction and its ability to handle complex responses during conversation.\n We examine the potential of AI in the sales funnel, from improving customer touchpoints to aiding in ideation and transforming the sales process.\n The episode explores the use of AI for immediate follow-up in digital marketing, capturing emotional responses, and identifying highly motivated clients.\n We discuss setting parameters for AI to ensure recommendations stay within legal and ethical boundaries, like a pharmacy AI giving over-the-counter advice.\n Aalok talks about AI's role as a strategic partner in analyzing conversations, refining sales approaches, and allowing for reallocation of focus to high-value tasks.\n I highlight how AI can optimize lead flow, manage routine tasks, and offer solutions for post-pandemic business challenges, such as staffing issues.\n We discuss the customization of AI voice agents to match customer demographics, enhancing trust and credibility in customer relationships.\n\n\nLINKS\nAalok Y Shukla - LinkedIn\nImplementAI\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/159\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\nEPISODE CHAPTERS\n\n(0:00:01) - Amplified Expert Podcast and Voice AI\n(0:03:07) - AI's Potential in Business Exploration\n(0:13:44) - Using AI for Lead Capture and Conversion\n(0:17:08) - AI-Assisted Conversational Analysis and Personalized Services\n(0:20:32) - Optimizing Lead Flow With AI Support\n(0:27:48) - AI Voice Customization and Implementation\n(0:34:30) - Amplifying Your Message and Feedback\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Anyone welcome to what I think I've just decided I'm going to call the amplified expert podcast. Not, this is important enough for a new show all by itself, so I'm going to put this in the normal 90 minute books feed. So hide all the 90 minute books crowd. But I think this, where we're going, is worthwhile to create a whole new show by itself. So I look at Shukla Great to see you have you as a first guest. We go back a long way. I'm excited to share what we were just talking about with people. So why don't you give everyone a quick introduction in case they haven't crossed pass with you before? \n\nAalok: Of course, always a pleasure to catch up with you, Stuart. So my name is Aalok and I'm co-founder of Implement AI, and in the UK, my co-founder is Piers Linney. He was on Shark Tank in the UK, so if you're English, you might know who he is and we're helping businesses implement AI. And, stuart, we've been talking about technology for many years and we've done, you know, different things in the past. And, yeah, just our conversations about, like, where technology is going, and voice AI in particular, and the whole reinvention of interfaces and the way we interface with technology and how things make it easier. It's super fascinating. So I thought it's great to catch up with you and go through, because there were so many use cases we were literally talking through just a few days ago. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and that's it. So I think having access to such a broad customer base on the book side of the business gives us a thousand different use cases where all of these ideas, this opportunity to amplify your voice and implement these AI tools is such a good jumping off point for conversations, because it takes you out of your immediate thought zone on your own business into all of these different clients who have written books and their individual cases. So let's we're as we do. \n\nThis is the yeah, this is the dive in and the raw, the raw example of the idea that we're sharing with people. So I think for the podcast we'll insert some video and some clips afterwards, but maybe the first one that I'll insert is your LinkedIn post from a couple of days ago that had your mom talking to the voice system. So maybe give a bit of a background on the voice system generally. And then, yeah, absolutely. \n\nAalok: : Yeah, absolutely. So basically, we work with voice AI and we create voice AI agents which can be at the end of a phone line or on a computer screen, like on a website, and you can literally just talk to it. And I gave it to my mom to basically see how, how she would feel about interacting with it, the technology, and it was literally acting as a sales assistant and she found it very empathetic and it, you know, responding in a nice way, and she found it quite intuitive and easy to use as well and she said it was much friendlier than a lot of the bank ones and things which tend to only ask you information and don't give you anything back. So that the difference in the interface now is the generative AI. You can actually be more personal and convey some warmth. \n\nI've got some little of the distinctions where I feel that tone is more important than accent. She was using one which still had an Australian accent, but it was still, you know, very warm. Now we've got an English accent one. But I would ask you, sture, you did a call with our AI, isn't it Right? Like, why don't you tell everyone like how you found it, because you also tried to trip it up a few places as well, isn't it? \n\nStuart: Only in a nice way I was trying to feel to where the boundaries were not necessarily push it over. So you tell me the link a week or so ago and then, just before we spoke the other day, I dialed into the system. Can you get access to that audio recording as well, or do you just get the transcript. \n\nAalok: : I'll give it to you. \n\nStuart: Yeah, shoot me that audio and then I'll insert it here and then, if I get the time right, people can now just listen to it and then I'll talk about it and they can join a couple of seconds later. So understand what we were talking about. \n\nAI EXCERPT\n\nJess: Hi, this is Jess from Implement AI. I'm an AI specialist here to help you discover the best opportunities to implement artificial intelligence in your business. Can you tell me your name? \n\nStuart: Stuart. \n\nJess: Great, it's nice to meet you, Stuart. Stuart, please can you confirm your company name? \n\nStuart: It's Nightmare Books. \n\nJess: Sounds great. Could you tell me a little about what your company does? \n\nStuart: The company name is 90-Minute Books. \n\nJess: That's interesting. 90-minute Books. I assume you specialize in creating books quickly, Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. That's impressive. Creating books in such a short amount of time can be a game changer for authors and businesses. Are you looking to use artificial intelligence to grow sales or reduce costs? \n\nStuart: Yeah, potentially just have more access to the more touch points for the customers so people can phone and get through to a voice rather than just an email. \n\nJess: That's a great idea, Stuart. Using AI to enhance customer touch points can significantly improve customer experience and engagement. May I ask what your role is in the company? \n\nStuart: Yeah, in the company. \n\nJess: Thank you, stuart. As the head of the company, you're in a prime position to steer its growth. Could you tell me a bit about the challenges your company is currently facing? Thank you for sharing that, stuart. It sounds like one of the main challenges your company is facing is the need for more touch points with customers to build confidence and encourage them to move forward. With writing a book, speeding up the process from idea to execution is crucial. Where, specifically, do you see the opportunity for artificial intelligence's potential applications in your business? \n\nStuart: From our perspective, it's definitely the case that we can use it in our sales funnel. So calls like this, but then also helping people with their ideation and refining their thoughts into a more compelling funnel. So there's two sides for us and for their clients. \n\nJess: Interesting insights, Stuart. Using AI in your sales funnel and to help with ideation can certainly streamline processes and make them more efficient. Have you or your team undergone any training in AI or related technologies? \n\nStuart: Yes. \n\nJess: That's helpful to know, stuart. Having some training in AI or related technologies can definitely give you a head start in implementing AI solutions effectively. One last question Is your goal to stay informed and ahead in your industry, or are you looking to be a leader and leverage AI for a competitive edge? That's great to hear, stuart. Being a leader and leveraging AI for a competitive edge can truly transform your business. When were you looking to implement AI in your business? \n\nStuart: Since it makes sense. \n\nJess: Thank you for these valuable insights, stuart, based on what you've shared. Implement AI can assist you in streamlining your sales funnel, enhancing ideation processes and, ultimately, helping you become a leader in your industry by leveraging AI for a competitive edge. Would you like to schedule a consultation with our experts to explore this further? \n\nStuart: That's okay. I've got a call with Alex this afternoon Scheduled already. \n\nJess: Perfect, Stuart. It sounds like you're already on the right track. We're looking forward to speaking with you and Alex this afternoon. We'll be in touch and remember you can hang up at any time. Have a great day ahead. \n\nStuart: Thank you. \n\nJess: You're welcome, Stuart. If you have any questions before the call, feel free to reach out. Goodbye for now. \n\nEND EXCERPT\n\nStuart: So, knowing that it was an AI, I went into the conversation trying to be as testing it in a real scenario, so as if I'd in, as if I didn't know. And I think the two things that jumped out at the end of the process were one how good the voice is. I mean, I think now we're past the point where you can really detect the difference between a live human voice and an AI voice. I was on separately on the call yesterday. There's a quick AI also as part of over the last couple of days and one of their examples. They just started talking about generative visual models and they said okay, here's a quick quiz. Click on these 10 images, tell me which one's generated and which one's real. And I mean, you really couldn't tell the difference. In fact, that got funny because, as we were talking in the group, we were saying, well, the AI on that image looks a little bit off. But then we suddenly realized that well, that means it's probably real because the generated one is probably a little bit perfect. And now it feels like we're just picking on someone's picture. So, anyway, from the voice perspective it's the same. You really can't tell the difference. \n\nAnd the thing that stood out to me as the use case was its ability to interpret the answers and not just go down a very scripted yes or no answer. So I gave it some very short answers and it elaborated on what I'd said in a meaningful way. I gave it a couple of very long answers, or answering one question with two different perspectives, and it was able to respond and give a response just as you would expect a human to do, by understanding that there were two different things and talking about them in that context. So when I think about it and the use case for people listening now, they might have thought about voice prompt systems, as I can say a bank, press one, press two, press three, which is very. Do you want this? \n\nAalok: : Yeah, exactly Like a complete robotic. \n\nStuart: Yeah, exactly, robotic, scripted, very narrow. For most of us as business owners in the audience that we're talking to now, it's not really that relevant because we're just not trying to push that much volume through those small pipes. But this was really an eye opener to say okay, whether you're a dentist and trying to schedule appointments, or whether you're a beautician salon and you've got some open appointments and you want to make outage back you know you want to call back leads for your, like your, heating. \n\nAalok: : You know, you know, pretend to know what the stress the VAC stands for like relation and air conditioning. \n\nStuart: Well, the UK air condition does exist, but that's why you don't know what that is. \n\nAalok: : But yeah, or even at real estate ages, like we talked about, or even you know people who maybe are inactive customers. They want to be reactivated. I think the different, the differentiation of distinction between those kind of automated systems which is like press one after the tone to this is this actually is the AI playing the role of what you want it to play? So we literally set it up to be almost a sales assistant for implement AI in that example that you interact with there is asking you questions about where your pain points are, what you're looking for, and also you know whether you're looking to be a leader or just you know, stay ahead of the curve and all those answers where you're having a conversation back, you get way more data and way more analytics than if you ask someone to fill out a form which might be are you looking to do this or that. \n\nYou lose all the bandwidth in the nuance of all of the intent and with this I think it's amazing for capturing all the intent, and I'm not even going to get into the fact that you can run it through analytics afterwards for advanced sentiment. You know tone across 48 emotional, emotional dimensions to analyze that even more. There's all sorts of stuff you can do, but the bottom line is people actually, when they're talking back and forth, and would you like an appointment to you know, would you like to do this? I see it as a nice step between the purely digital online world or the print world and, like the real person, online consultation or in person consultation or whatever. It's a hybrid step that you can access digitally 24, seven, any place, any time, but it will reply to you with the personality of the business and you capture a lot of intent. So I just felt that's another nice step in that whole process, isn't it basically? \n\nStuart: And it really makes it more, more real and more human, in the sense that you've got much more of a two way conversation and although I think still it maybe makes sense that people identify that it is AI versus a human Although I mean that's borderline, you can really get away with not doing that but I think from the overall, where this fits in your fun, it maybe makes sense to suggest that this is an agent doing a particular role and not an open ended conversation. I don't think. But to be able to extract that, I mean even going into this. So there was, maybe I was on the phone for maybe three minutes. Again, people will have listened to it by this point in the conversation, but by the end of it I don't know that I'd say that I'd completely forgotten that I was talking to an agent. But it certainly wasn't fun and centre in my mind, because maybe the tone and pace of the conversation was very normal. I mean, maybe if you were really dialed in and being picky, the response where it's waiting to know if I've stopped talking, it's kind of holding off a little bit. But I mean this is really going into it, knowing that it is and looking for where the edges are, rather than just answering a phone call and seeming to be speaking to someone. So what might be useful is give. \n\nI can think of two examples that really immediately sprung to mind for the audience listening here of how it could fit into that funnel. So the first one talking about book clients. So for anyone who's written a book, I'm going to use Paul Ross as an example. So he's a podiatrist up in the north, the northeast. We've done a couple podcasts with him in the past, so I'll link back to his previous show as well is just in the show notes If people want to get up to speed with what he does. So his latest book he's written several with us, but his latest one is my Damn Toe Hurts and it's about non surgical interventions to toe pain, not quite arthritis, but that kind of. Again, I'm immediately forgetting the exact specifics of what it is. \n\nAalok: : I get it though. \n\nStuart: One is going to see that ad in their Facebook feed, running a Facebook ad against it. Think to themselves oh, I'm suffering from this problem. That'll be interesting. Opt in through one or two clicks to get a copy of the digital version of the book. An email would be sent out with it. Within Facebook, you've got the opportunity to capture a phone number as well. So let's say that's the setup. Someone receives the copy of the book and then the next day receives a phone call from their agent to say correct, all, straight away, even actually. I mean, I'm saying the next day, but you could be straight away. I'm always kind of on the edge of how creepy do you want to be about? So I've just been watching you and saw you click this button, so I'm calling you. So anyway, 10 minutes. \n\nSo 10 minutes later they get a call saying hey, it's okay, I work with. Paul, just emailed you a copy of the book. I just want to make sure you got that. But also, if you've got a minute, ask you a couple of quick questions. How long have you had the pain for? Is it just isolated to that area? Have you tried any treatment before? Oh, that's great. \n\nAalok: : What's it stopping you? Is it stopping you from doing anything like something like this? How is it affecting your life? All those high band with emotional motivation questions? The only place you normally capture that stuff is in a live consultation. Normally people will not emote that they're stopping me going dancing or my daughter's wedding or this. They will never put those things into a form. But this if you architect the conversation properly and there's a whole art to that and along with the AI persona, you can extract that and then you can then know who's highly motivated. Basically, right. \n\nAnd ultimately, they could even potentially sign up for the service before they receive the book, isn't it Right? So they can send it to their ships, or digital, or whatever. \n\nStuart: Yeah, exactly by the time they've got to their email or by the time they've made time to, particularly when they're in the moment of being peak interest because they've just expressed a desire to see your family. \n\nYeah, exactly, the AI agent asking those questions you were talking there about eliciting the answer that says oh well, the problem is that it's stopping me from moving around and my daughter's weddings in six months time and I'm concerned that I won't be able to move there. The immediate response is that compassionate, immediate response by the agent was able to pull out those elements of the conversation and kind of replay it back to someone, so it really does reinforce the points, and then the call to action at the end of that conversation, having collected that information, could be hey, that's great, it sounds like we can really do something to help you. The next step is to come in for an appointment. So are you available on whatever the time is, or the next step will be to call. Thank you, yeah, exactly. \n\nAalok: : Or it could even WhatsApp you the booking link, for example, right, and you can just, you know, choose that yourself or whatever like that. So the technology is like moving on quite a lot, basically right, you know, and it just unlocks so much potential. \n\nStuart: And the speed and convenience and even the friendly way of doing it, because it is non-threatening, it is very conversational. To a certain degree it is kind of rapport building with the brand, because it does feel like it's. \n\nAalok: : I'm getting upset. I can't go off-peast. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's not going to have a bad day. So it sounds like oh, I've got a phone with another customer up and be frustrated with it. It really is. The perfect implementation of this is what you would do as an individual if you had all the bandwidth in the world. It's just now that there's a capability to make sure that it happens in a timely way. \n\nAalok: : Even, for example, like I'm just making up now, but let's say you have some kind of planning service, like even like a wedding planning service or even like a kind of design service or anything like this, and normally your expert time to have that conversation, have that meeting, is highly bespoke and expensive. But then in between you've got some materials, but you still need to kind of understand what's their vision, what they're trying to do and all that stuff. You can almost have this as an AI guide. You know, talk to my AI guide and they will give you some tips and give you some advice. But at the same time also it's like just screening in a concerted way so that they can understand OK, you know what level of recommendations can you go to and what will you go beyond. \n\nSo, for example, we did, we built one for a pharmacy and we built it so that it doesn't cross the line into medical recommendations. It will only stay on the side of over the counter stuff, basically. So it will save anything which is crossing that line. You need to talk to a medical professional so you can set the parameters to what you want and how helpful you want it to be. Basically, isn't it Right? Yeah? \n\nStuart: both active on LinkedIn, and there are LinkedIn services out there, the sales BD type services that charge a lot of money to do the analysis of clients or potential targets, and those services go out there and collect all of this information so that when you make a sales call, you're making it more informed. But the thing that we've just described turning up to a call as you as the individual, with the information from the agent and the analysis around the conversation and the conversational information that comes out from the person answering I mean that's very valuable. By the time you as an individual actually then speak to the person, you know everything. \n\nAalok: : Because what I find so interesting about this is when I listen to calls with the AI and the person, I can actually get a lot of understanding about what that kind of person, that person is from how they interact with it and at the same time also I can see the full transcript, I can see exactly what the answer they did and I can also see, like my summary, which has the key points of whatever there is within it. \n\nSo you have the ability to almost like step the ability to step into their eyes if you want to say that you know, or there is, and have the full analytics of whatever there was, because it's basically a perfect note taker, it's 70% cheaper than an employee that you can read, direct your employees to do more high value tasks and things like this, and you know it's consistently working, doesn't go off script, and then you can also then use data to understand. \n\nOk, I had these four questions. I'm not getting the kind of answers I wanted back on this. Let me change that question to this question and then let me see how does that come back with my answers or whatever like this. Or we were talking about consistent commitment and consistency and I was saying that if you get someone to say, yes, I do want to be a market leader or yes, I do want to be, that we know we were both saying that there is something physiologically different in the communication of the person saying that versus just taking a box or writing something in a checklist on a box, basically. \n\nSo I think, if you make it easy for people to basically just interact with your business by phone and they could just literally just talk their ideas whenever they wanted to even for your book, to be honest, right, you know, like even just to get some of the ideas and stuff like that out then it could almost help them organize their thoughts in a way, isn't it? It could always be a partner where they could just talk when they've got time to do the things and then go from there, basically, isn't it? \n\nStuart: Actually, you've just blown my mind. This is why I love doing these calls, because it's such an opportunity to kind of spark a thought. We were talking yesterday about the idea of having an agent in our funnel as part of the lead flow. So, from identifying that they're interested in the subject to almost going through the school card methodology or we've got the five book title types methodology and those, both things lend themselves to an agent prompting people through, but actually from existing clients. From the onboarding perspective, the first step in our process is what we call the. I'm forgetting what we call our own forms. Now. Anyway, the first form that we send people on how you've signed up as a client. You're going to talk with Susan or Christie in the first instance, but they send a questionnaire just to get the high level ideas of what your book's about so that they join that call. Yeah, exactly, set that up as an agent to run through and have it as a pre onboarding call. \n\nAalok: : It could be a resource, and you could have a resource which is would you like to hear an example? \n\nStuart: So you could be like a so each bit. \n\nAalok: : if you don't want to hear an example, they can just say what they want, but would you like to hear an example as well? They could add those into the mix as well, isn't it? \n\nStuart: Yeah, things like scheduling appointments for. Going back to that HVAC example, I mean, we know someone actually connect you afterwards because it's maybe worth having a conversation with them. So they're in a big, healthy home in Tampa, they're a big HVAC and water remediation and they do a lot of that home install type service. They spend a lot of time outreaching to clients just to reconfirm appointments, get the understanding of what the issue was. This would be a perfect example for those guys. And then the call centre people that they've got, like you say, can work on just more high value stuff where there's a lot more discrepancy. \n\nAalok: : But the other thing is that the agents, like humans, have a one to one capacity that I can call. I can have one conversation at once, right? Right, ai can have multiple conversations in parallel. So 20 people wanted to call it 11 30 AM. 20 people can have that perfect call 11 30 AM, basically, right. \n\nStuart: So it's to try and synchronize both parties. \n\nAalok: : You basically AI gives you capacity and it also gives you productivity. So productivity is getting more stuff done. Capacity is getting more volume done, basically right. So it enables you to scale your outreach or your collections or whatever you're going to call it basically in that way, and I just think it's just and it's 70% cheaper than a human right. Right, yes, and it's not exactly. \n\nYeah, exactly, and it's just like where could you add it in? Which would then add the touch point customer success, customer support, online, asking for reviews, happy customers, different things. There's so many ways that you could leverage it in a nice touch point, isn't there, ian? \n\nStuart: Yeah Well, we're in a world now that the people I've spoken to and I'm sure the UK is still the same as the US has been over the last year or so post-pandemic the biggest complaint I hear from people is the ability to find staff, or find reliable staff. It's not so much that they're not willing to pay, it's not that they don't have the work for them, it's just that it's very Just short to show yeah. \n\nAalok: : And some tasks and some businesses have fractional roles where they don't have enough full-time work maybe, but they'd still like somebody good, isn't it Right? And then the question there is I've got three, four hours worth of work a day for somebody, but I can't get someone that would do that, and I want it maybe at the peak time, I don't know 4 PM till 8 PM, to call people, because that's when they would be reached. But how do I reach? So there's all sorts of issues and peculiarities and different things, and even for e-commerce you've got people that checked out but didn't fully check out. You could call them and say was there a reason you didn't finish the order? Can I help you complete the order? Was there something different you were looking for, or whatever like that. I mean, if you've got anything selling of value and you've got lifetime customer value, which is you want to keep them, I think all these things just help increase trust because also, if they're hearing a very articulate voice and explain things, it also increases trust and they actually have support. \n\nStuart: Yeah, the ability to get someone at the end of the phone, even if, for certain use cases, it's not a real person, it's a pseudo real person. \n\nAalok: : But you can say that I will pass the message to my team member or my supervisor and they'll be in touch, and then you know that that was sent. Basically right, so it's logged. \n\nStuart: Yeah, the reliability that the message does get passed on to the right person and that feeling of confidence that it gets somewhere. And if that human is then freed up from some of the more mundane duties so that they have got the ability to call those people back, I mean you know how frustrating it is your phone and leave a message for a company and they just never get back to you. If you can free up that capacity, I mean that makes such a world of difference. \n\nAalok: : This is better than voicemail. So this is better than a voicemail number one and number two. It's also better than a web form number two and number three. It's almost like a replacement, for it's an interactive, free, recorded message in a way, if you understand that. So it's a much more, but in a much more artful, skillful way, which can actually use some psychology and interact with it, with your customer, the way you want it to. \n\nStuart: Yeah, get that for an engagement going on sooner in the process. The other example I thought about so this I mentioned Paul and how he could use it in the funnel going from the book to the agent to the appointment or person. But the other example that immediately spun to mind was the realtor's that we work with. One of the big complaints I hear is the zillification of the real estate world and in that scenario people are on Zillow, they're clicking the button to say they want to reach out to someone, but Zillow will send it to multiple agents and it's kind of whoever gets there first. So the agents really feel like they're now on call 24 seven, because that lead goes cold very quickly. Imagine being able to have their agent call on your behalf and hey, it's Eric on behalf of Aalok, so that you're interested in one, two, three main street. Are you able to see it this week, or is it only townhomes you're interested in, or are you working with another agent at the moment? \n\nAalok: : Yeah, Do you have your mortgage approved already? Is there anything special consideration? Because this property is very popular and whatever it is basically, isn't it yeah? \n\nStuart: And then wrapping up by saying I'll get Aalok to give you a call back, or pointing people to online resources, or offering to send them a copy of the book. \n\nAalok: : Or yeah, Well, here's the diary link. You can schedule the thing in right now, basically to visit the place, so you skip a step. Potentially, isn't it Depending on whether the thing is Because it could pre-qualify them in that kind of way? So, hey, can you just? Can you just, can you WhatsApp me or just email me or this, that stuff like that, and then we've got your list as a confirmed buyer on our database or whatever. It is like that, isn't it? Yeah? \n\nStuart: And that expectation or building the relationship with that person immediately. If another agent then phones them, it's far less likely that they're going to go off. They're going to say I'm working with someone already, so to create that gap between someone raising their hand and establishing that relationship with you, this is the perfect example. I mean, we were talking about having the agents in a different voice, which I guess kind of makes sense, but another use case would be to record it in your own voice. I don't know how practical that is within the system, but yeah, have it in your own voice. \n\nAalok: : You can have it in any voice Like the voice that we're using right now is actually one of our team members. I like her voice, basically right, so we you know we're using a voice. \n\nStuart: She was very happy to have that. \n\nAalok: : And so, but also even accents, right, it's been shown that, like Scottish accents or Irish accents, that proceed is more friendly, and so you can go to a whole other level if you know what your customer avatar is, or this, that, and you're like okay, I want to have a friendly, you know Canadian or you know Midwestern or whatever you want. Basically, you know you can have all that basically. \n\nThat level of specificity I mean talk about Dianne and Gheon having a female voice with a Northeast accent Going to the group of people who you know come from that area and Texas accent It'll come more over time, but like level one, you could at least as a mass customization, say, okay, I want to have a Florida accent or whatever like that for my voice, for my business, or whatever like that, and then, and I want it to speak in a rhythm which is going to whatever different cadences and stuff like that. So, so that can be personalized and customized, and so it is almost, you know, in the way you want it. \n\nStuart: Someone there? Yeah, what about the process? Someone listening to this thinking, oh, this is a great opportunity. I can see where this might sit in the funnel or worth a conversation. Someone a business owner's commitment or how much effort they need to put into. Obviously, it's not just a flicker button in it and it's turned on. \n\nAalok: : But basically what we provide this service right. So we will work with the business to like, set it up, customize it, all that kind of stuff. So our job is to make sure you've got an AI employee which will answer the phone 24 seven or reach out 24 seven or do what you want, and we would set it up in the role that you wanted for that particular workflow. And our recommendation is start with one in one workflow and then you can have it in that voice and then you know you can use other, you can do other ones in different roles with the same voice or a different voice or whatever you want. Basically, right. So it's however you want to Literally think about it almost like a, that's a you know an agent in that sitting in that chair and they will just do the job. They will just do the job and that task thing and stuff like this. And it's okay, you're the booker, you make, you can you deal with inbound or you call people and you make appointments Great you know somebody else who's been okay. \n\nI'm the confirmer, for example, or I'm the upsellor, or you're coming in tomorrow and I saw that you're booked for this, but did you also want this or did you know? That's a different thing, isn't it right? You know like, so that can be a different. You know, bit like this, so it's just optimizing the workflow. Or you know, you were a customer of ours last year but you've not been back. \n\nI'd like to offer you know, first of all, was there something that we did wrong? You know, get that feedback. And then number two okay, if there wasn't, that's great. Is there something that we can do to get you back? Basically that we've got this new special or whatever like that. But they'll say the same thing every time. They will never be like well, but she Pesh, or this, that like. They will capture the system. And if someone says that and someone says the most, you know I don't know vitriolic feedback. You know, like back. They'll just be polite, say I'm sorry for your experience. You know that it takes the. It almost acts as a frustration buffer. It's like a crumple zone. So it's like. You know you crash into the AIs. So by the time you actually talk to humans, your frustration is gone. \n\nStuart: And when you think about that as an employee retention point of view, I mean dealing with frustrated clients must be a negative to certain roles, Particularly if it happens a lot. So to be able to take fun pools on that out, I mean that's going to help make the client feel like they're being one of my friends who worked in a GP practice, a doctor practice. \n\nAalok: : He's got 800 phone calls coming in a day, 800 calls a day and the majority of people cannot get an appointment because it's just not capacity. \n\nAnd he said they have massive issues with staff members talking to patients rudely. \n\nAnd also you can say that if staff just burned out, they don't have time, they do different things or they just got new on the job and then you got to go to listen to the calls and understand who talked rudely and there's a whole minefield in that. Versus if you had like first level AI filtering for everything, almost basically, then it'll be like okay, we've got all your details and we will be in touch, you know, within the next 15 minutes or whatever like this. Then you could have some kind of algorithm which is filtering like does the sea merging or not, whatever this and what's that? However, you want to filter a tree are, you can, as long as people know that they're in the loop, they communicated fully and and you can even email them a summary of the call if you wanted to, saying thanks for logging this. And here's a copy of your call. So you've got everything recorded for you, whatever like this and it's been logged, so I think that just adds trust and credibility to you know that level of communication with the business. \n\nStuart: Basically, yeah, yeah, that's a great point and we talked a lot about the kind of the setup and that first stage, but what you then do with the data and the next stage in the process. I mean there's so many options further down that track. We should perhaps do another, do another podcast to let me down the track and talk about the use cases and how people are really streamlining those processes to make those steps, the processes, to make the whole thing as effective as possible. And so what? I always go too quick in every podcast that I do. It's crazy. \n\nWhat's the way? Can people find out more? So I really want to give people the opportunity and I think as well really suggest that people just take a second and think about where this can sit in the process, because so often we hear that I have created the book and I've got this setup, but now I don't have time to deal with the rest of it. So from a book perspective or from a day to day business perspective, this is really worth just a second to think about how this could sit in. So where's a good place for people to find more? \n\nAalok: : Yes, so they can get in touch on LinkedIn, so hopefully you can have my LinkedIn details below there but then also via our website, which is implement AI, so www.implementai.io, and you can get in touch with us there. We work with businesses and we know, both for training their team, but also on transformation programs, and this forms part of what we call our AI Activate Program, where we actually help businesses get kickstarted to become AI transformed and we literally help them implement a particular workflow and we're finding voices very popular at the moment. \n\nStuart: basically, yeah, such a great opportunity to amplify your message in something that's consistent and really speeds up that process of moving the whole conversation forward. I look always a pleasure if I make sure that your LinkedIn details and the implement AI ones in the show notes so people can just click through and then I'll put a link to the site as well. And really, as people are listening to this, just take a second to think about how it could fit in and then let me know as well. I'm always interested to see how people are using this to amplify their message. So, yeah, let me know how it goes as well. \n\nAalok: : Thank you very much. \n\nStuart: No problem, thank you. We will speak again soon. Cheers. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, I'm joined by my good friend Aalok Y Shukla, Cofounder at Implement AI, as we discover the potential of voice AI.
\n\nI've known Aalok for more than a decade. He's always been fast to adopt new technologies, so it was no surprise to see him, along with his cofounder Piers Linney, launch Implement AI, an organization dedicated to helping companies adapt to the new AI world.
\n\nThey have just launched an amazing interactive voice agent, and our discussion traces its evolution into empathetic systems, exploring tone, accent, and personalized experiences.
\n\nWe talked about Aalok's mother's encounter with their AI agent, and we shared my interaction and how impressed I was at the AI's seamless conversation skills.
\n\nWrapping up, we examine Agents role in redefining lead capture and management through fast follow-up tailored to each customer and reshaping customer service, sales and personalized outreach.
\n\nEarly in the show I've inserted my audio with the AI. The recording is from the server side, and it's amazing to hear how conversational the AI is, even with my bad cell phone connection. It's well worth a listen.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nLINKS
\nAalok Y Shukla - LinkedIn
\nImplementAI
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/159
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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EPISODE CHAPTERS
\n\n(0:00:01) - Amplified Expert Podcast and Voice AI
\n(0:03:07) - AI's Potential in Business Exploration
\n(0:13:44) - Using AI for Lead Capture and Conversion
\n(0:17:08) - AI-Assisted Conversational Analysis and Personalized Services
\n(0:20:32) - Optimizing Lead Flow With AI Support
\n(0:27:48) - AI Voice Customization and Implementation
\n(0:34:30) - Amplifying Your Message and Feedback
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nAalok: Of course, always a pleasure to catch up with you, Stuart. So my name is Aalok and I'm co-founder of Implement AI, and in the UK, my co-founder is Piers Linney. He was on Shark Tank in the UK, so if you're English, you might know who he is and we're helping businesses implement AI. And, stuart, we've been talking about technology for many years and we've done, you know, different things in the past. And, yeah, just our conversations about, like, where technology is going, and voice AI in particular, and the whole reinvention of interfaces and the way we interface with technology and how things make it easier. It's super fascinating. So I thought it's great to catch up with you and go through, because there were so many use cases we were literally talking through just a few days ago.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and that's it. So I think having access to such a broad customer base on the book side of the business gives us a thousand different use cases where all of these ideas, this opportunity to amplify your voice and implement these AI tools is such a good jumping off point for conversations, because it takes you out of your immediate thought zone on your own business into all of these different clients who have written books and their individual cases. So let's we're as we do.
\n\nThis is the yeah, this is the dive in and the raw, the raw example of the idea that we're sharing with people. So I think for the podcast we'll insert some video and some clips afterwards, but maybe the first one that I'll insert is your LinkedIn post from a couple of days ago that had your mom talking to the voice system. So maybe give a bit of a background on the voice system generally. And then, yeah, absolutely.
\n\nAalok: : Yeah, absolutely. So basically, we work with voice AI and we create voice AI agents which can be at the end of a phone line or on a computer screen, like on a website, and you can literally just talk to it. And I gave it to my mom to basically see how, how she would feel about interacting with it, the technology, and it was literally acting as a sales assistant and she found it very empathetic and it, you know, responding in a nice way, and she found it quite intuitive and easy to use as well and she said it was much friendlier than a lot of the bank ones and things which tend to only ask you information and don't give you anything back. So that the difference in the interface now is the generative AI. You can actually be more personal and convey some warmth.
\n\nI've got some little of the distinctions where I feel that tone is more important than accent. She was using one which still had an Australian accent, but it was still, you know, very warm. Now we've got an English accent one. But I would ask you, sture, you did a call with our AI, isn't it Right? Like, why don't you tell everyone like how you found it, because you also tried to trip it up a few places as well, isn't it?
\n\nStuart: Only in a nice way I was trying to feel to where the boundaries were not necessarily push it over. So you tell me the link a week or so ago and then, just before we spoke the other day, I dialed into the system. Can you get access to that audio recording as well, or do you just get the transcript.
\n\nAalok: : I'll give it to you.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, shoot me that audio and then I'll insert it here and then, if I get the time right, people can now just listen to it and then I'll talk about it and they can join a couple of seconds later. So understand what we were talking about.
\n\nAI EXCERPT
\n\nJess: Hi, this is Jess from Implement AI. I'm an AI specialist here to help you discover the best opportunities to implement artificial intelligence in your business. Can you tell me your name?
\n\nStuart: Stuart.
\n\nJess: Great, it's nice to meet you, Stuart. Stuart, please can you confirm your company name?
\n\nStuart: It's Nightmare Books.
\n\nJess: Sounds great. Could you tell me a little about what your company does?
\n\nStuart: The company name is 90-Minute Books.
\n\nJess: That's interesting. 90-minute Books. I assume you specialize in creating books quickly, Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. That's impressive. Creating books in such a short amount of time can be a game changer for authors and businesses. Are you looking to use artificial intelligence to grow sales or reduce costs?
\n\nStuart: Yeah, potentially just have more access to the more touch points for the customers so people can phone and get through to a voice rather than just an email.
\n\nJess: That's a great idea, Stuart. Using AI to enhance customer touch points can significantly improve customer experience and engagement. May I ask what your role is in the company?
\n\nStuart: Yeah, in the company.
\n\nJess: Thank you, stuart. As the head of the company, you're in a prime position to steer its growth. Could you tell me a bit about the challenges your company is currently facing? Thank you for sharing that, stuart. It sounds like one of the main challenges your company is facing is the need for more touch points with customers to build confidence and encourage them to move forward. With writing a book, speeding up the process from idea to execution is crucial. Where, specifically, do you see the opportunity for artificial intelligence's potential applications in your business?
\n\nStuart: From our perspective, it's definitely the case that we can use it in our sales funnel. So calls like this, but then also helping people with their ideation and refining their thoughts into a more compelling funnel. So there's two sides for us and for their clients.
\n\nJess: Interesting insights, Stuart. Using AI in your sales funnel and to help with ideation can certainly streamline processes and make them more efficient. Have you or your team undergone any training in AI or related technologies?
\n\nStuart: Yes.
\n\nJess: That's helpful to know, stuart. Having some training in AI or related technologies can definitely give you a head start in implementing AI solutions effectively. One last question Is your goal to stay informed and ahead in your industry, or are you looking to be a leader and leverage AI for a competitive edge? That's great to hear, stuart. Being a leader and leveraging AI for a competitive edge can truly transform your business. When were you looking to implement AI in your business?
\n\nStuart: Since it makes sense.
\n\nJess: Thank you for these valuable insights, stuart, based on what you've shared. Implement AI can assist you in streamlining your sales funnel, enhancing ideation processes and, ultimately, helping you become a leader in your industry by leveraging AI for a competitive edge. Would you like to schedule a consultation with our experts to explore this further?
\n\nStuart: That's okay. I've got a call with Alex this afternoon Scheduled already.
\n\nJess: Perfect, Stuart. It sounds like you're already on the right track. We're looking forward to speaking with you and Alex this afternoon. We'll be in touch and remember you can hang up at any time. Have a great day ahead.
\n\nStuart: Thank you.
\n\nJess: You're welcome, Stuart. If you have any questions before the call, feel free to reach out. Goodbye for now.
\n\nEND EXCERPT
\n\nStuart: So, knowing that it was an AI, I went into the conversation trying to be as testing it in a real scenario, so as if I'd in, as if I didn't know. And I think the two things that jumped out at the end of the process were one how good the voice is. I mean, I think now we're past the point where you can really detect the difference between a live human voice and an AI voice. I was on separately on the call yesterday. There's a quick AI also as part of over the last couple of days and one of their examples. They just started talking about generative visual models and they said okay, here's a quick quiz. Click on these 10 images, tell me which one's generated and which one's real. And I mean, you really couldn't tell the difference. In fact, that got funny because, as we were talking in the group, we were saying, well, the AI on that image looks a little bit off. But then we suddenly realized that well, that means it's probably real because the generated one is probably a little bit perfect. And now it feels like we're just picking on someone's picture. So, anyway, from the voice perspective it's the same. You really can't tell the difference.
\n\nAnd the thing that stood out to me as the use case was its ability to interpret the answers and not just go down a very scripted yes or no answer. So I gave it some very short answers and it elaborated on what I'd said in a meaningful way. I gave it a couple of very long answers, or answering one question with two different perspectives, and it was able to respond and give a response just as you would expect a human to do, by understanding that there were two different things and talking about them in that context. So when I think about it and the use case for people listening now, they might have thought about voice prompt systems, as I can say a bank, press one, press two, press three, which is very. Do you want this?
\n\nAalok: : Yeah, exactly Like a complete robotic.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, exactly, robotic, scripted, very narrow. For most of us as business owners in the audience that we're talking to now, it's not really that relevant because we're just not trying to push that much volume through those small pipes. But this was really an eye opener to say okay, whether you're a dentist and trying to schedule appointments, or whether you're a beautician salon and you've got some open appointments and you want to make outage back you know you want to call back leads for your, like your, heating.
\n\nAalok: : You know, you know, pretend to know what the stress the VAC stands for like relation and air conditioning.
\n\nStuart: Well, the UK air condition does exist, but that's why you don't know what that is.
\n\nAalok: : But yeah, or even at real estate ages, like we talked about, or even you know people who maybe are inactive customers. They want to be reactivated. I think the different, the differentiation of distinction between those kind of automated systems which is like press one after the tone to this is this actually is the AI playing the role of what you want it to play? So we literally set it up to be almost a sales assistant for implement AI in that example that you interact with there is asking you questions about where your pain points are, what you're looking for, and also you know whether you're looking to be a leader or just you know, stay ahead of the curve and all those answers where you're having a conversation back, you get way more data and way more analytics than if you ask someone to fill out a form which might be are you looking to do this or that.
\n\nYou lose all the bandwidth in the nuance of all of the intent and with this I think it's amazing for capturing all the intent, and I'm not even going to get into the fact that you can run it through analytics afterwards for advanced sentiment. You know tone across 48 emotional, emotional dimensions to analyze that even more. There's all sorts of stuff you can do, but the bottom line is people actually, when they're talking back and forth, and would you like an appointment to you know, would you like to do this? I see it as a nice step between the purely digital online world or the print world and, like the real person, online consultation or in person consultation or whatever. It's a hybrid step that you can access digitally 24, seven, any place, any time, but it will reply to you with the personality of the business and you capture a lot of intent. So I just felt that's another nice step in that whole process, isn't it basically?
\n\nStuart: And it really makes it more, more real and more human, in the sense that you've got much more of a two way conversation and although I think still it maybe makes sense that people identify that it is AI versus a human Although I mean that's borderline, you can really get away with not doing that but I think from the overall, where this fits in your fun, it maybe makes sense to suggest that this is an agent doing a particular role and not an open ended conversation. I don't think. But to be able to extract that, I mean even going into this. So there was, maybe I was on the phone for maybe three minutes. Again, people will have listened to it by this point in the conversation, but by the end of it I don't know that I'd say that I'd completely forgotten that I was talking to an agent. But it certainly wasn't fun and centre in my mind, because maybe the tone and pace of the conversation was very normal. I mean, maybe if you were really dialed in and being picky, the response where it's waiting to know if I've stopped talking, it's kind of holding off a little bit. But I mean this is really going into it, knowing that it is and looking for where the edges are, rather than just answering a phone call and seeming to be speaking to someone. So what might be useful is give.
\n\nI can think of two examples that really immediately sprung to mind for the audience listening here of how it could fit into that funnel. So the first one talking about book clients. So for anyone who's written a book, I'm going to use Paul Ross as an example. So he's a podiatrist up in the north, the northeast. We've done a couple podcasts with him in the past, so I'll link back to his previous show as well is just in the show notes If people want to get up to speed with what he does. So his latest book he's written several with us, but his latest one is my Damn Toe Hurts and it's about non surgical interventions to toe pain, not quite arthritis, but that kind of. Again, I'm immediately forgetting the exact specifics of what it is.
\n\nAalok: : I get it though.
\n\nStuart: One is going to see that ad in their Facebook feed, running a Facebook ad against it. Think to themselves oh, I'm suffering from this problem. That'll be interesting. Opt in through one or two clicks to get a copy of the digital version of the book. An email would be sent out with it. Within Facebook, you've got the opportunity to capture a phone number as well. So let's say that's the setup. Someone receives the copy of the book and then the next day receives a phone call from their agent to say correct, all, straight away, even actually. I mean, I'm saying the next day, but you could be straight away. I'm always kind of on the edge of how creepy do you want to be about? So I've just been watching you and saw you click this button, so I'm calling you. So anyway, 10 minutes.
\n\nSo 10 minutes later they get a call saying hey, it's okay, I work with. Paul, just emailed you a copy of the book. I just want to make sure you got that. But also, if you've got a minute, ask you a couple of quick questions. How long have you had the pain for? Is it just isolated to that area? Have you tried any treatment before? Oh, that's great.
\n\nAalok: : What's it stopping you? Is it stopping you from doing anything like something like this? How is it affecting your life? All those high band with emotional motivation questions? The only place you normally capture that stuff is in a live consultation. Normally people will not emote that they're stopping me going dancing or my daughter's wedding or this. They will never put those things into a form. But this if you architect the conversation properly and there's a whole art to that and along with the AI persona, you can extract that and then you can then know who's highly motivated. Basically, right.
\n\nAnd ultimately, they could even potentially sign up for the service before they receive the book, isn't it Right? So they can send it to their ships, or digital, or whatever.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, exactly by the time they've got to their email or by the time they've made time to, particularly when they're in the moment of being peak interest because they've just expressed a desire to see your family.
\n\nYeah, exactly, the AI agent asking those questions you were talking there about eliciting the answer that says oh well, the problem is that it's stopping me from moving around and my daughter's weddings in six months time and I'm concerned that I won't be able to move there. The immediate response is that compassionate, immediate response by the agent was able to pull out those elements of the conversation and kind of replay it back to someone, so it really does reinforce the points, and then the call to action at the end of that conversation, having collected that information, could be hey, that's great, it sounds like we can really do something to help you. The next step is to come in for an appointment. So are you available on whatever the time is, or the next step will be to call. Thank you, yeah, exactly.
\n\nAalok: : Or it could even WhatsApp you the booking link, for example, right, and you can just, you know, choose that yourself or whatever like that. So the technology is like moving on quite a lot, basically right, you know, and it just unlocks so much potential.
\n\nStuart: And the speed and convenience and even the friendly way of doing it, because it is non-threatening, it is very conversational. To a certain degree it is kind of rapport building with the brand, because it does feel like it's.
\n\nAalok: : I'm getting upset. I can't go off-peast.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's not going to have a bad day. So it sounds like oh, I've got a phone with another customer up and be frustrated with it. It really is. The perfect implementation of this is what you would do as an individual if you had all the bandwidth in the world. It's just now that there's a capability to make sure that it happens in a timely way.
\n\nAalok: : Even, for example, like I'm just making up now, but let's say you have some kind of planning service, like even like a wedding planning service or even like a kind of design service or anything like this, and normally your expert time to have that conversation, have that meeting, is highly bespoke and expensive. But then in between you've got some materials, but you still need to kind of understand what's their vision, what they're trying to do and all that stuff. You can almost have this as an AI guide. You know, talk to my AI guide and they will give you some tips and give you some advice. But at the same time also it's like just screening in a concerted way so that they can understand OK, you know what level of recommendations can you go to and what will you go beyond.
\n\nSo, for example, we did, we built one for a pharmacy and we built it so that it doesn't cross the line into medical recommendations. It will only stay on the side of over the counter stuff, basically. So it will save anything which is crossing that line. You need to talk to a medical professional so you can set the parameters to what you want and how helpful you want it to be. Basically, isn't it Right? Yeah?
\n\nStuart: both active on LinkedIn, and there are LinkedIn services out there, the sales BD type services that charge a lot of money to do the analysis of clients or potential targets, and those services go out there and collect all of this information so that when you make a sales call, you're making it more informed. But the thing that we've just described turning up to a call as you as the individual, with the information from the agent and the analysis around the conversation and the conversational information that comes out from the person answering I mean that's very valuable. By the time you as an individual actually then speak to the person, you know everything.
\n\nAalok: : Because what I find so interesting about this is when I listen to calls with the AI and the person, I can actually get a lot of understanding about what that kind of person, that person is from how they interact with it and at the same time also I can see the full transcript, I can see exactly what the answer they did and I can also see, like my summary, which has the key points of whatever there is within it.
\n\nSo you have the ability to almost like step the ability to step into their eyes if you want to say that you know, or there is, and have the full analytics of whatever there was, because it's basically a perfect note taker, it's 70% cheaper than an employee that you can read, direct your employees to do more high value tasks and things like this, and you know it's consistently working, doesn't go off script, and then you can also then use data to understand.
\n\nOk, I had these four questions. I'm not getting the kind of answers I wanted back on this. Let me change that question to this question and then let me see how does that come back with my answers or whatever like this. Or we were talking about consistent commitment and consistency and I was saying that if you get someone to say, yes, I do want to be a market leader or yes, I do want to be, that we know we were both saying that there is something physiologically different in the communication of the person saying that versus just taking a box or writing something in a checklist on a box, basically.
\n\nSo I think, if you make it easy for people to basically just interact with your business by phone and they could just literally just talk their ideas whenever they wanted to even for your book, to be honest, right, you know, like even just to get some of the ideas and stuff like that out then it could almost help them organize their thoughts in a way, isn't it? It could always be a partner where they could just talk when they've got time to do the things and then go from there, basically, isn't it?
\n\nStuart: Actually, you've just blown my mind. This is why I love doing these calls, because it's such an opportunity to kind of spark a thought. We were talking yesterday about the idea of having an agent in our funnel as part of the lead flow. So, from identifying that they're interested in the subject to almost going through the school card methodology or we've got the five book title types methodology and those, both things lend themselves to an agent prompting people through, but actually from existing clients. From the onboarding perspective, the first step in our process is what we call the. I'm forgetting what we call our own forms. Now. Anyway, the first form that we send people on how you've signed up as a client. You're going to talk with Susan or Christie in the first instance, but they send a questionnaire just to get the high level ideas of what your book's about so that they join that call. Yeah, exactly, set that up as an agent to run through and have it as a pre onboarding call.
\n\nAalok: : It could be a resource, and you could have a resource which is would you like to hear an example?
\n\nStuart: So you could be like a so each bit.
\n\nAalok: : if you don't want to hear an example, they can just say what they want, but would you like to hear an example as well? They could add those into the mix as well, isn't it?
\n\nStuart: Yeah, things like scheduling appointments for. Going back to that HVAC example, I mean, we know someone actually connect you afterwards because it's maybe worth having a conversation with them. So they're in a big, healthy home in Tampa, they're a big HVAC and water remediation and they do a lot of that home install type service. They spend a lot of time outreaching to clients just to reconfirm appointments, get the understanding of what the issue was. This would be a perfect example for those guys. And then the call centre people that they've got, like you say, can work on just more high value stuff where there's a lot more discrepancy.
\n\nAalok: : But the other thing is that the agents, like humans, have a one to one capacity that I can call. I can have one conversation at once, right? Right, ai can have multiple conversations in parallel. So 20 people wanted to call it 11 30 AM. 20 people can have that perfect call 11 30 AM, basically, right.
\n\nStuart: So it's to try and synchronize both parties.
\n\nAalok: : You basically AI gives you capacity and it also gives you productivity. So productivity is getting more stuff done. Capacity is getting more volume done, basically right. So it enables you to scale your outreach or your collections or whatever you're going to call it basically in that way, and I just think it's just and it's 70% cheaper than a human right. Right, yes, and it's not exactly.
\n\nYeah, exactly, and it's just like where could you add it in? Which would then add the touch point customer success, customer support, online, asking for reviews, happy customers, different things. There's so many ways that you could leverage it in a nice touch point, isn't there, ian?
\n\nStuart: Yeah Well, we're in a world now that the people I've spoken to and I'm sure the UK is still the same as the US has been over the last year or so post-pandemic the biggest complaint I hear from people is the ability to find staff, or find reliable staff. It's not so much that they're not willing to pay, it's not that they don't have the work for them, it's just that it's very Just short to show yeah.
\n\nAalok: : And some tasks and some businesses have fractional roles where they don't have enough full-time work maybe, but they'd still like somebody good, isn't it Right? And then the question there is I've got three, four hours worth of work a day for somebody, but I can't get someone that would do that, and I want it maybe at the peak time, I don't know 4 PM till 8 PM, to call people, because that's when they would be reached. But how do I reach? So there's all sorts of issues and peculiarities and different things, and even for e-commerce you've got people that checked out but didn't fully check out. You could call them and say was there a reason you didn't finish the order? Can I help you complete the order? Was there something different you were looking for, or whatever like that. I mean, if you've got anything selling of value and you've got lifetime customer value, which is you want to keep them, I think all these things just help increase trust because also, if they're hearing a very articulate voice and explain things, it also increases trust and they actually have support.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, the ability to get someone at the end of the phone, even if, for certain use cases, it's not a real person, it's a pseudo real person.
\n\nAalok: : But you can say that I will pass the message to my team member or my supervisor and they'll be in touch, and then you know that that was sent. Basically right, so it's logged.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, the reliability that the message does get passed on to the right person and that feeling of confidence that it gets somewhere. And if that human is then freed up from some of the more mundane duties so that they have got the ability to call those people back, I mean you know how frustrating it is your phone and leave a message for a company and they just never get back to you. If you can free up that capacity, I mean that makes such a world of difference.
\n\nAalok: : This is better than voicemail. So this is better than a voicemail number one and number two. It's also better than a web form number two and number three. It's almost like a replacement, for it's an interactive, free, recorded message in a way, if you understand that. So it's a much more, but in a much more artful, skillful way, which can actually use some psychology and interact with it, with your customer, the way you want it to.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, get that for an engagement going on sooner in the process. The other example I thought about so this I mentioned Paul and how he could use it in the funnel going from the book to the agent to the appointment or person. But the other example that immediately spun to mind was the realtor's that we work with. One of the big complaints I hear is the zillification of the real estate world and in that scenario people are on Zillow, they're clicking the button to say they want to reach out to someone, but Zillow will send it to multiple agents and it's kind of whoever gets there first. So the agents really feel like they're now on call 24 seven, because that lead goes cold very quickly. Imagine being able to have their agent call on your behalf and hey, it's Eric on behalf of Aalok, so that you're interested in one, two, three main street. Are you able to see it this week, or is it only townhomes you're interested in, or are you working with another agent at the moment?
\n\nAalok: : Yeah, Do you have your mortgage approved already? Is there anything special consideration? Because this property is very popular and whatever it is basically, isn't it yeah?
\n\nStuart: And then wrapping up by saying I'll get Aalok to give you a call back, or pointing people to online resources, or offering to send them a copy of the book.
\n\nAalok: : Or yeah, Well, here's the diary link. You can schedule the thing in right now, basically to visit the place, so you skip a step. Potentially, isn't it Depending on whether the thing is Because it could pre-qualify them in that kind of way? So, hey, can you just? Can you just, can you WhatsApp me or just email me or this, that stuff like that, and then we've got your list as a confirmed buyer on our database or whatever. It is like that, isn't it? Yeah?
\n\nStuart: And that expectation or building the relationship with that person immediately. If another agent then phones them, it's far less likely that they're going to go off. They're going to say I'm working with someone already, so to create that gap between someone raising their hand and establishing that relationship with you, this is the perfect example. I mean, we were talking about having the agents in a different voice, which I guess kind of makes sense, but another use case would be to record it in your own voice. I don't know how practical that is within the system, but yeah, have it in your own voice.
\n\nAalok: : You can have it in any voice Like the voice that we're using right now is actually one of our team members. I like her voice, basically right, so we you know we're using a voice.
\n\nStuart: She was very happy to have that.
\n\nAalok: : And so, but also even accents, right, it's been shown that, like Scottish accents or Irish accents, that proceed is more friendly, and so you can go to a whole other level if you know what your customer avatar is, or this, that, and you're like okay, I want to have a friendly, you know Canadian or you know Midwestern or whatever you want. Basically, you know you can have all that basically.
\n\nThat level of specificity I mean talk about Dianne and Gheon having a female voice with a Northeast accent Going to the group of people who you know come from that area and Texas accent It'll come more over time, but like level one, you could at least as a mass customization, say, okay, I want to have a Florida accent or whatever like that for my voice, for my business, or whatever like that, and then, and I want it to speak in a rhythm which is going to whatever different cadences and stuff like that. So, so that can be personalized and customized, and so it is almost, you know, in the way you want it.
\n\nStuart: Someone there? Yeah, what about the process? Someone listening to this thinking, oh, this is a great opportunity. I can see where this might sit in the funnel or worth a conversation. Someone a business owner's commitment or how much effort they need to put into. Obviously, it's not just a flicker button in it and it's turned on.
\n\nAalok: : But basically what we provide this service right. So we will work with the business to like, set it up, customize it, all that kind of stuff. So our job is to make sure you've got an AI employee which will answer the phone 24 seven or reach out 24 seven or do what you want, and we would set it up in the role that you wanted for that particular workflow. And our recommendation is start with one in one workflow and then you can have it in that voice and then you know you can use other, you can do other ones in different roles with the same voice or a different voice or whatever you want. Basically, right. So it's however you want to Literally think about it almost like a, that's a you know an agent in that sitting in that chair and they will just do the job. They will just do the job and that task thing and stuff like this. And it's okay, you're the booker, you make, you can you deal with inbound or you call people and you make appointments Great you know somebody else who's been okay.
\n\nI'm the confirmer, for example, or I'm the upsellor, or you're coming in tomorrow and I saw that you're booked for this, but did you also want this or did you know? That's a different thing, isn't it right? You know like, so that can be a different. You know, bit like this, so it's just optimizing the workflow. Or you know, you were a customer of ours last year but you've not been back.
\n\nI'd like to offer you know, first of all, was there something that we did wrong? You know, get that feedback. And then number two okay, if there wasn't, that's great. Is there something that we can do to get you back? Basically that we've got this new special or whatever like that. But they'll say the same thing every time. They will never be like well, but she Pesh, or this, that like. They will capture the system. And if someone says that and someone says the most, you know I don't know vitriolic feedback. You know, like back. They'll just be polite, say I'm sorry for your experience. You know that it takes the. It almost acts as a frustration buffer. It's like a crumple zone. So it's like. You know you crash into the AIs. So by the time you actually talk to humans, your frustration is gone.
\n\nStuart: And when you think about that as an employee retention point of view, I mean dealing with frustrated clients must be a negative to certain roles, Particularly if it happens a lot. So to be able to take fun pools on that out, I mean that's going to help make the client feel like they're being one of my friends who worked in a GP practice, a doctor practice.
\n\nAalok: : He's got 800 phone calls coming in a day, 800 calls a day and the majority of people cannot get an appointment because it's just not capacity.
\n\nAnd he said they have massive issues with staff members talking to patients rudely.
\n\nAnd also you can say that if staff just burned out, they don't have time, they do different things or they just got new on the job and then you got to go to listen to the calls and understand who talked rudely and there's a whole minefield in that. Versus if you had like first level AI filtering for everything, almost basically, then it'll be like okay, we've got all your details and we will be in touch, you know, within the next 15 minutes or whatever like this. Then you could have some kind of algorithm which is filtering like does the sea merging or not, whatever this and what's that? However, you want to filter a tree are, you can, as long as people know that they're in the loop, they communicated fully and and you can even email them a summary of the call if you wanted to, saying thanks for logging this. And here's a copy of your call. So you've got everything recorded for you, whatever like this and it's been logged, so I think that just adds trust and credibility to you know that level of communication with the business.
\n\nStuart: Basically, yeah, yeah, that's a great point and we talked a lot about the kind of the setup and that first stage, but what you then do with the data and the next stage in the process. I mean there's so many options further down that track. We should perhaps do another, do another podcast to let me down the track and talk about the use cases and how people are really streamlining those processes to make those steps, the processes, to make the whole thing as effective as possible. And so what? I always go too quick in every podcast that I do. It's crazy.
\n\nWhat's the way? Can people find out more? So I really want to give people the opportunity and I think as well really suggest that people just take a second and think about where this can sit in the process, because so often we hear that I have created the book and I've got this setup, but now I don't have time to deal with the rest of it. So from a book perspective or from a day to day business perspective, this is really worth just a second to think about how this could sit in. So where's a good place for people to find more?
\n\nAalok: : Yes, so they can get in touch on LinkedIn, so hopefully you can have my LinkedIn details below there but then also via our website, which is implement AI, so www.implementai.io, and you can get in touch with us there. We work with businesses and we know, both for training their team, but also on transformation programs, and this forms part of what we call our AI Activate Program, where we actually help businesses get kickstarted to become AI transformed and we literally help them implement a particular workflow and we're finding voices very popular at the moment.
\n\nStuart: basically, yeah, such a great opportunity to amplify your message in something that's consistent and really speeds up that process of moving the whole conversation forward. I look always a pleasure if I make sure that your LinkedIn details and the implement AI ones in the show notes so people can just click through and then I'll put a link to the site as well. And really, as people are listening to this, just take a second to think about how it could fit in and then let me know as well. I'm always interested to see how people are using this to amplify their message. So, yeah, let me know how it goes as well.
\n\nAalok: : Thank you very much.
\n\nStuart: No problem, thank you. We will speak again soon. Cheers.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, I'm joined by my good friend Aalok Y Shukla, Cofounder at Implement AI, as we discover the potential of voice AI. \r\n\r\nI've known Aalok for more than a decade. He's always been fast to adopt new technologies, so it was no surprise to see him, along with his cofounder Piers Linney, launch Implement AI, an organization dedicated to helping companies adapt to the new AI world.\r\n\r\nThey have just launched an amazing interactive voice agent, and our discussion traces its evolution into empathetic systems, exploring tone, accent, and personalized experiences. \r\n\r\nWe talked about Aalok's mother's encounter with their AI agent, and we shared my interaction and how impressed I was at the AI's seamless conversation skills.\r\n\r\nWrapping up, we examine Agents role in redefining lead capture and management through fast follow-up tailored to each customer and reshaping customer service, sales and personalized outreach.\r\n\r\nEarly in the show I've inserted my audio with the AI. The recording is from the server side, and it's amazing to hear how conversational the AI is, even with my bad cell phone connection. It's well worth a listen.","date_published":"2024-03-03T09:30:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/9ed76d40-56d4-42bc-8763-91d6b0fec718.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":33413829,"duration_in_seconds":2088}]},{"id":"1dc2c104-474d-4a46-8a01-2688ff1f6a71","title":"Ep158: Amplifying Your Voice with Heidi Ardis","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/158","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we are joined again by Heidi Ardis, founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a Mississippi-based financial services company helping people all over the country plan a better retirement.\n\nWe got to dive deeper into her story, from a corporate advisor role to starting her own company, and how that gave her the flexibility and time to really understand each of her clients and their unique situations.\n\nThe conversation then turned to the opportunity of amplifying her voice and how that underpins her quality client relationships. \n\nIn a competitive space like financial advisors, it can be difficult to stand out, but her books, emails, and really all the ways she interacts with people allow her to share her approach and let potential clients say, 'Yes, I want to work with Heidi'.\n\nIn a world where the barrier to creating content is getting lower every day, amplifying your perspective is the only way to separate yourself from the crowd.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n Stuart catches up with Heidi Ardis about her transition from corporate wealth management to founding her own firm, Agape Wealth, and how it aligns with her focus on family, faith, and finance.\n Heidi describes the personal and professional benefits of starting Agape Wealth, including improved work-life balance and deeper client relationships.\n We explore the importance of confidence in financial advisors and the challenges they face, such as simplifying financial jargon and managing product knowledge.\n Stuart shares insights on client discomfort with financial services and the necessity for advisors to foster a transparent environment where clients feel comfortable asking questions.\n Heidi emphasizes the dynamics of financial conversations within couples and the importance of involving both partners in financial planning.\n Stuart discusses the use of written materials, like books, to reinforce credibility and set the direction for financial conversations with clients.\n We examine how digital tools and strategic follow-ups can enhance client relationships, including the use of apps to help clients visualize their financial plans.\n Stuart and Heidi consider the effectiveness of annual reviews and the need for consistent communication to maintain trust, especially with out-of-state clients.\n Heidi shares strategies for engaging specialized communities, like military families, with tailored financial advice and leveraging assets like books for marketing.\n We discuss the significance of organic referrals in growing a financial advisory business and how providing excellent service leads to clients becoming advocates.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nHeidi Ardis - LinkedIn**\nAgape Wealth\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/158\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\nEPISODE CHAPTERS\n\n(0:00:01) - Retirement Planning Conversations With Clients\nHeidi Ardis transitioned from corporate wealth management to starting her own firm, Agape Wealth, with a focus on retirement income planning and efficient wealth distribution.\n\n(0:07:10) - Importance of Confidence in Financial Advisors\nUnderstanding client expectations and customizing advice, addressing challenging questions, and the role of language in financial services.\n\n(0:12:48) - Engaging People in Financial Conversations\nEngaging individuals in financial discussions, involving both spouses, educating about retirement strategies, and serving as a resource for broader financial planning.\n\n(0:19:25) - Written Communication in Financial Planning\nWritten materials can bolster credibility and empower clients to engage with finances through an app.\n\n(0:23:50) - Engagement and Follow-Up With Clients\nAnnual reviews and client involvement in financial planning, digital engagement, and managing out-of-state relationships.\n\n(0:32:18) - Leveraging Assets and Orchestrating Referrals\nUnderstanding and supporting specialized communities through tailored financial advice, leveraging existing assets, and orchestrating referrals for growth.\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here and today, excited to be joined back again by Heidi Ardis. Heidi, how are you doing? \n\nHeidi: How are you? \n\nStuart: Very good. Thank you, I was just saying before we recorded. I still have some kind of COVID. Reign in that time is a flexible elastic band and it seems like it was ages since we spoke, but actually it was only a couple of months, so excited to check in and see how things are going. \n\nHeidi: Things have been going well and, yes, it's that time of year and everybody seems to be sick. \n\nStuart: Do you know, my folks were across from the UK and we're up in Pennsylvania, the offices down in Florida, my brother's down in Florida as well, so parents managed to survive flights flying in here but get down to Florida and everyone was sick down there. So then the left went back to the UK and people were sick there and it's definitely that time of year in the northern hemisphere. \n\nHeidi: That's correct. \n\nStuart: yes, yeah, it goes fast, okay, so let's give people a quick update or circle back. Not everyone listens to all of the past shows, so let's start with a quick recap of you and Agape in the business, and then we can go into the book and talk about what's happened since we last spoke. \n\nHeidi: Yep, so I've been in wealth management financial advising since about 2006. And this year, in 2023, opened my own firm, agape wealth, really as a faith based decision to kind of move into the realm of having a business that focused on my faith, family and finance and doing that for my clients. So, in turn, here we are with this, and so one of the things we really focus on here is retirement income planning and distribution of wealth. And how do you do that efficiently for Texas, for estates, and so you know it was recommended to me to write a book on that. So so we did. We wrote the simplified strategies for retirees how to defend and distribute wealth with proper planning and so that led me to the 90 minute books and into you. \n\nStuart: And here we are. That so 2023. When in this year did you start and prior to that, was it more corporate based financial planning for one of the bigger firms? \n\nHeidi: So this coming started in March of 2023. Prior to that, I had worked in an independent firm for about four years, but before that, yes, was mostly corporate. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think it's always an interesting journey that leads people through kind of realises. You hear kind of like a similar story of increasingly more going more and more independent away from the bigger houses, financial visors. It definitely happens for those people who have got that by the kicked out of the nest sometimes, who are kind of drawn to being more independent. I think last time we were talking we were diving a little bit into that benefit of being on your own and stealing your own ship and just having more time for individual clients, relationship based, the opportunity to be more relationship based with people. Kind of eight months down the track now, is that really what you found? You do you get that extra time with people, unlike a bigger firm. \n\nHeidi: Yes, I mean, it has been not only a lifestyle change for me, because you think, when you go to open your own company, that you're going to be busier, and what I have found is that my life in general has gotten better and therefore I'm able to give more to my clients, because if my daughter, who is in you, know soccer and she's on a travel team, if she has a game, I don't have to think about whether I'm going to be able to go or not. \n\nI get to be a part of their lives and, in turn, I want my clients to feel that. And so, yeah, it's been an amazing transition that you know I'm building something that is personally rewarding in terms of my own household, with my kids, who are my son is almost a teenager and my daughter is a teenager, so you know we're in those years. But also we drink coffee together and I tell them I'm like, listen, I am not booking out tons and tons of appointments every day. I have open space throughout the day. If you want to come by and see me, I'm available for you. So they don't feel that I'm not attainable to them. \n\nStuart: Right. It kind of breaks it from that nine to five. This is office hours in see, we're trying to be flexible both for family and for clients and do what works for them. Such a great opportunity. It kind of disconnects that just arbitrary clock into something that's more kind of flexible. And he says I think people across the board appreciate it more because they're not necessarily just on nine to five customers now. They're just not on nine to five timeframes either. They're just much more used to working or having access to people in a place and and manage it fits them better. \n\nHeidi: Or feeling like they're in, can be their advisor by coming by and wanting to chat with them. You know I don't want people to feel that way and so we've really created that environment and even if I am in a meeting, They'll come in and they'll sit down and you know the girls in the office will go out and hang out and you know they don't feel like their jobs are sitting at their computer. You know their job to be a part of the clients and know who they are. \n\nStuart: It's so funny, is there when you think back. So I'm out of my 48, so 28 years, 20, 30 years working that kind of timeframe, and I can remember the early jobs before email. I mean even working for pretty big companies back in the time it was really the first job, at least, was pre email. So you think in the cadence of that work and the activities that were done day by day it's definitely not connected to a device. So I think an immediate reply it's much more having that little bit of extra time to deal with things as the day progresses. \n\nYeah such a better lifestyle choice and more rewarding than being locked in a cubicle for certain Correct. \n\nHeidi: Exactly. \n\nStuart: So the work and the approach. So the retirement planning and that being a big element of people's interest in financial planning generally, it's obviously their end goal. For most people is they're thinking about it, perhaps after houses, taking care of and as people's, people's interest in financial planning towards that stage, the conversations that you have with clients and their understanding of retirement planning. I'm always interested to people. Are you having conversations with people where they're a knowledgeable audience and it's very technical, or is it going to introduce the ideas to them and almost a holistic, broad perspective, give them the guidance and help steer the ship, but they're not necessarily interested in the technical details, or is it, as I say, more technically oriented and they're kind of diving into the details? What's your experience? \n\nHeidi: with clients they're probably 80 to 85% is more of a holistic, non technical approach, because that would be the population at all. They really just want to know where am I, where are we going and how is it going to function and does it work for my life? So you know, looking at the broader picture, you know we run a lot of reports. Obviously that'll be really in depth, but then it's. You know we're not going to go into those reports. If you want that data or more than happy to give that to you. But really my approach is to show them okay, here's where you're currently at, here's when you want to retire, this is how much you can have in retirement and never run out of money If we do these things, and this is how we're going to draw the income and this is how we're going to live off of it. \n\nAnd that's what most people are looking for is really just the roadmap. They don't need to know how the internal workings of Google and the Google Maps is. They just want to know that when they put in a destination, they're going to reach it. But then you know there are some clients who are very technical. You know more of the engineers and people of the world, and so with those people, you, as the advisor, need to be knowledgeable enough about what you're presenting to be able to answer their questions and to be able to back it up with the data. \n\nStuart: That's actually a great point. It's the confidence that people are looking for. There's a certain expectation, I think, that everyone no matter whether they're a doctor or marketing company or financial advisor there's the expectation that everyone's got when working with someone that you know your job and you can do the outcome. I think that having confidence and the personal connection that you're the right person and of all the people that they could choose, they're happy and comfortable that they've chosen you. So being able to not necessarily start off with those details but have them there to hand if people question and drill down, that really kind of bridges that gap between not getting stuck in the weeds and scaring the majority of people away, but also providing that value and guidance and helpful resource for the people, no matter what their level is, either the introductory or the detailed. \n\nHeidi: Yeah, I think it's probably the number one biggest problem in this industry is that financial advisors do not know what they are doing, and most of them are just doing what they're told. They don't research for themselves, they just trust that when their owner of the company or the owner of the corporation says here's this what you should sell or here's what you should do because this person's 35 or 45 and they have this much money, and you know, they put everybody in a box and they don't go out and read the contracts or look through the data for themselves and truly understand what they're doing. And then when they have that hard client that starts asking them questions, they can't answer it and so but that's probably a lot of people in the world they just kind of they're told. \n\nStuart: Right, I just kind of I don't know if this is insulting or derogatory, but I was going to say it's kind of like the paycheck mentality of just going in and doing a job and I'm here to just follow the instructions and not necessarily have the interest or the exploratory nature to go in and find out what the real situation is behind the scenes. \n\nHeidi: I wonder if that's self-selecting About money, so you can make a lot of money and not really have to work as hard. \n\nStuart: And so that's what I'm saying Self-selecting across the kind of people who are in those financial advisors versus the independent guys who are more interested in the subject and not just executing on paycheck and rolling through clients within a small window and then just getting on to the next one. \n\nHeidi: Yeah, and there's even independent firms. That I think it's a problem, because you have a large independent firm and you got, you know, seven or eight or nine advisors in one office and then it becomes pretty similar to a corporate office. Right, that's true, so you know it's like you just really, as someone who are out searching for the right person, need to make sure that you are confident in the person sitting in front of you, that they are knowledgeable. \n\nStuart: Yeah, do you find that with clients who come in? Is the clients understand that problem and know the challenges of working with someone who's just kind of a cookie cutter trying to put them in the mold, or are they more coming in and kind of expressing a dissatisfaction maybe not getting the personal attention that they need? What am I trying to ask, kind of like from the client's perspective? Do they know what the problem is or do they just have a feeling that it's not quite working with other places? \n\nHeidi: I think it's both. I think they feel like they're trying to communicate with their current advisor, or they've sat down with a few people and they're just not feeling like that person's giving them what they need. But also they may not be able to pinpoint exactly why or what that is, but they just kind of know that something's not right. But then they also people don't like saying no. So then you know you're sitting in an office and you're like well, these people have a thousand clients, like what's wrong with me? \n\nStuart: that I don't have a good fit. \n\nHeidi: But just because a firm has a lot of clients or has a big operation does not mean that they are good at their jobs, I mean, or that they're going to give you a one on one personalized financial plan. It just means that you know they've done good. I mean, walmart brings in a lot of clients Doesn't mean that they're the best place to go. \n\nStuart: Right, it's such a great point, isn't it? People's kind of perception of, well, everyone is the crowd mentality, everyone else is doing this. It must be me, not them. I think the other thing, kind of being on the side of, I might have mentioned last time my background is in IT for financial services organizations. So there was a period of time that I was doing the financial services authority in the UK would do some financial education workshops in and around the country. I did some in London. \n\nSo we go into workplaces and then talk to a group of 15 or 20 people just about some of the basics nothing too in depth, but even trying to talk about so savings accounts, the IRA equivalents in the UK, pensions generally, just the fact that employers might be matching contributions and the certain restrictions, but the main different definitions of defined contribution and defined benefit plans. Even at that relatively straightforward level we try to keep it easy to consume. You can still see people glazing out because, although technically it's not complicated, I don't know whether it's a lack of confidence for people and they just feel like this is a complicated thing and I can't handle it, I'm not equipped, or whether it's a lack of interest and it's too scary or daunting and they almost put in the shutters up. Do you find that as well, talking to your clients, or your clients tend to be more engaged because they are looking for someone with a more personal connection and an educated view on things. \n\nHeidi: So what I have found is generally, especially if people are married, one is very engaged and the other one is completely non engaged. So it's like if you're sitting in front of a group of 15 people, maybe three or four of them are going to be really paying attention and the rest of them are thinking, well, my spouse does that, or this isn't something that I need to worry about right now, and or I'm terrible with money, so I'm not even going to listen, because it's this internal struggle of well, I'm not going to do it right anyway. \n\nStuart: So I'm not even going to try, it's not even trying. \n\nHeidi: So I think that if know what I try to do, especially because normally you know, I live in South Mississippi, so normally the male is the one who runs the finances, and I just think that's just kind of like a generational thing, where the guy works and the wife works, but not necessarily on the same level or whatever, and so the man will come in and he just thinks he's going to dominate the conversation of what we're going to do. \n\nAnd this is where we're going, and for me it's extremely important to engage the wife. Listen, more than likely he's going to die first, based on data and statistics, and then this is going to be on you. Even though you may not feel it's important, it's going to be important to you. So we at least want you to be engaged in the conversation, know what we're doing and why it's for your benefit, so that, because we do have a lot of males around here, especially we have a lot of military bases, so there's a lot of pensions and we need to make sure, if there's not a full survivorship benefit, how are we going to make up for that? So I think you need to engage those people that do not feel that this is their problem or are uncomfortable, because in doing that you really are able to make the dynamic of the conversation and the plan better. \n\nStuart: And, as you say, particularly with those statistics on who's likely to be the surviving spouse. It's very real. I often think that we moved house two years ago and there's kind of bits and pieces of things I've done around the house that I know where the switches are and the breakers are, and even just the physical incarnation of if anything happened to me. There was that sudden realization that I need to make sure that Lucy knows where all of the skeletons in which closets are hidden and where the switches are. From a financial perspective, even more so because it's such a real and can be complicated thing to sort out at the moment of a painful event, of trying to deal with all of the life elements of a spouse passing just to make sure you've got your docks in your row and at least you know the person to go and speak to, which your personal connection with people. Again, that's just adding to that, adding to that service that you provide or the support that you provide for people. \n\nHeidi: Yeah, and with the baby boomers. I mean, we're in a generation where they are now dealing with this on a level from their own parents, who their parents did not necessarily talk to them about money or any financial situation. So their parents pass away and then it's them trying to figure it all out, and so it's a good conversation to have. Are you having these conversations with your spouse? Are you having these conversations with your own children? Not that you have to tell your children specifically how much money they're going to inherit, but are you having the conversation? Hey, if something happens to me or your mom, reach out. This is our financial advisor, this is who we deal with. This is our lawyer, whoever the person is, so that they know who to contact and who has the plan. That it's not all on them, because when someone does pass away, it becomes this big burden on the family if they have no clue what's going on. \n\nStuart: Yeah, to try and dig through the details at that moment and with all of the conflicting reckons that people have of what conversations they've had with people in the past, it just makes it so difficult the ideas that we've brought together in the book. \n\nSo the simplified strategies, the simplified retirement strategies, those starting points for the conversations I was this week's coincidentally been a week of podcast, so I was just recording with someone yesterday and the conversation we were having there was around the fact that the asset now exists. It's a jumping off point for many conversations. So, even if the subject specifically isn't mentioned in the book, it's still the opportunity to use the book as a backup piece, as a as a deeper dive or as a broader context piece. Now that it's been out there for a period of time and you've used it in different ways, do you find that actually I've got a cover let me just make sure that people know what we're talking about. So the cover's up on the screen there for people watching rather than listening. So do you find that now that the book is out there, that there's more opportunities to use it and refer to it then perhaps, when you first were thinking about creating it? \n\nHeidi: Yeah, actually, you know, I've had clients who are existing clients, who come in and they're like, hey, I really want my kids to have your book. And they've actually been coming in and getting them. Or, you know, you can download them from our website, agapewealthcom. But because of that, they're getting their kids now actively engaged in their conversations, because they're like, look, you know, this is my advisor. These are some of the things that she thinks are important and one of those is, you know, starting early. So if you have a client who's 50 and they got kids in their 20s or early 30s, it's a, it's an opening, that dialogue for them. It's also made it where you know people are actually downloading the book and then they're reaching out to us and say, hi, I'd like to come in for a meeting. So it's done that for us as well. But I think it's also with existing clients, given them a level of confidence that you know, while she put these things in writing, she obviously means what she's done. \n\nStuart: I think that as well, that psychological cues that it gives people. It's not something that we talk about I don't think we talk about it that much but the fact that people will get a copy and then, even if they don't read it word for word or understand it word for word, it still gives them the indication of the direction that you're trying to guide people. And then when they come in and meet you face to face and you're saying the same things, it almost has an amplified power because they're not hearing it from you for the first time. It's almost the fact that what you're saying is reinforcing what they read in a book, even though it's your book. So I think that reinforcement is such a powerful, subliminal element to the fact that people are writing something in the way that they say things, in the way that they believe in the structure, that it really does reinforce it. \n\nAnd the other thing that you've said that was interesting as well is this idea that it starts other conversations, so with the one person in the relationship being more interested than another, using it to kind of highlight or point out or use that as an introduction to a conversation with a partner or, as you're saying with the kids, introducing the idea to the kids that they want to start early, and there's such a big advantage and this idea that it can be a jumping off point for a conversation and an easy way in just really is a huge advantage to the equivalent of trying to do it. I mean, you could put the same words on a page on a website, but that doesn't have the same authority or it doesn't communicate the same meaning or it doesn't give the opportunities for those conversations in the same way. So let me think about it. Now it exists, it's got an extra benefit. \n\nHeidi: Yep, and I think it has helped you know, just solidify that. One of the main focuses of the book was to empower you as the individual to ask questions of people, get more than one opinion, make sure you're confident, and it also gives you some strategies for those conversations. Hey, if I'm your client, will I be getting X? You know, the point of the book for me at first was really to empower people to ask questions and to be able to say no and understand that this is your money. You know your money. Even though you're entrusting me to guide you, at the end of the day, you have the right to say I don't think this is working, and you shouldn't be embarrassed by that and you should not ever feel guilty for being honest with the person that's working with you. \n\nStuart: Right, particularly when there's such an important outcome at the end of it. I mean, this is people's for the most part. I think this is people's one main shop. They may have other assets elsewhere. The house is obviously a big asset for some people, but in terms of disposable income to support you through the rest of your life, these decisions made around here, it's not something that ideally you just kind of give away and never think about again and turn up at the end and hope that it all worked because it would be great if it did. But if it didn't then the ship sailed a little bit. So good to check in with. \n\nThis idea of having clients who are in it for the long run and maybe aren't as enthusiastically engaged with the subject you mentioned before, about this whole raft of reports that you could share with people, some of which might seem overwhelming. Do you have a feel for what's the right level of information, or have you been able to bundle it together in a way that's easy for people to consume and then, of course, give them more details if they want it? But at least at that first level, in the review meetings that you're doing with people in the check-ins, is there a way that you feel like you've come up with that way of positioning it at the right level so that it is comfortable for them? \n\nHeidi: Yeah, so we have an actual app that people have access to on their phone where all their accounts, whether it be with different companies or wherever they are, can link. You can even link your own personal stuff, so your bank account or your mortgage. You can put all your stuff in one place. And so that particular app, I can go in and we can update your plan. Or you can even go in and do what-if scenarios what if I purchase the camper, what if I want to buy a new house or a second home and it'll help you along the way and so and it's pretty user-friendly. So we have that for our clients, which they like. People like stuff on their phones, but also when you come in. \n\nYou know I'm not giving you some hundred-page report. We're going over one or two pages of you know. Here's where we were last year. Here's where we are this year, based on what we predicted last year. Are we on track? And if the answer is yes, has there been any changes that we need to be aware of? You know, until we update, and some people want to come in once a year. Some people want to come in, you know, every three months. Some people want to call me every month, you know, but it just kind of depends on your level of engagement. But for those people that you know, don't really they're like, please just take this and do it. We still are going to make you at least come in once a year At least. \n\nLook at it, you know over the finances and say, hey, here's where we are, things are looking. Okay, you know, let's stay on track. Do you need more money? Do you need less money? How are things feeling? And so we try to keep it simple. \n\nStuart: Yeah, we often talk with people about you mentioned that people downloading the book and then it's showing employment kind of independent of any other any other action on the team's part. But we often speak to people about when they think about creating a book. Is that path through? So, talking about those reports and the experience that people have when they are clients, always trying to look for ways of replicating that in that journey when people are self selecting themselves. So illustrations are something which is big in the UK for financial planners but they're pretty restricted on what you can show and of dubious value. Sometimes it gets a little bit same. But those people who opt in for a copy of the book and then you have their email details, do you have a follow up sequence with them so that they are receiving additional things until they the points right for them that they raise their hand, or is it a pretty short path where they're downloading a copy and then just coming in pretty quick? \n\nHeidi: Well, I mean typically, if you're downloading the book, well, you're putting in your name, your email address, your phone number and then there's a comments section, and so most of them are asking at that point for us to reach out. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nHeidi: So, but if they don't, if they just download it and all they do is give us their information, then we will email them thanking them for downloading the book and let them know. We'll call them in a week or so to see how they liked it and if they would like to set an appointment at that point. The next step? \n\nStuart: yeah, do you have. It's super interesting actually that people are requesting it and a meeting in that they're like immediately thinking about taking that next step. I think that's probably. \n\nHeidi: We had two just in the last week that downloaded it and requested meetings at the same time. \n\nStuart: Actually that's super interesting. \n\nSo the majority of time that we're talking to people, we're talking about those digital downloads in a kind of name address, download it and then follow up with an email sequence and, within that email sequence, make some offers then or suggestions that they take next step and come in. \n\nBut wording the form that includes a comment or which area you're most interested in or what can we help you with or what you're struggling with, adding that as a field to the form, might well be an accelerator to that journey, which I'm going to start stealing and I'll give you credit for the idea. But yeah, that is really something that we haven't. I don't think. I mean, I know some people do it, but it's definitely not something that we talk about because we're really thinking about this longer term. But maybe the expense of those people who are immediately ready to go now, for those ones who are immediately ready to start or respond to something when you reach out, it's the first step that they really need to come in. There isn't really a self-serving step in between coming in. Is the first interaction meaningful interaction? Really they need to have a meeting with you as an impersonal on Zoom to actually go through some numbers, or is it more of a kind of theoretical conversation where you're just talking about general direction? \n\nHeidi: So the first conversation is typically with one of the other people that work in the office and they're contacting them, asking them questions that you know and then that kind of prompts would you like to have a meeting with Heidi and the advisor to discuss your concerns? You know, and we can either set that up as a phone call or a Zoom or an in-person meeting. You know whatever they want. We have a lot of clients that are out of state, so they usually will do a Zoom meeting. So for us I think it's kind of just contacting them and saying, hey, well, we know you've read the book or you've done the book. You know what was that about it, that you had concerns, questions, comments, that kind of thing, and so that's one of the team members that will do that, and then after that they'll set a meeting with me. \n\nStuart: Yeah, you mentioned that out of state ones we were. I think we were talking last time about the military families because of that kind of disbursement effect of people getting relocated, redeployed elsewhere. How much of a challenge is it, or is it no challenge at all? The difference between those local clients versus the remote ones? Is it pretty seamless? Or is there a difference in approach, apart from the fact they're not going to pop in? \n\nHeidi: So I think the only differences we need to be more actively engaged a little bit in terms of when they do become a client, that process of when the money's transitioning, because that can be a four to six week process. So if you don't have any interaction, you know physically, and you've never, like actually sat down with a person in person, sometimes that can be a little scary. So I think keeping those people a little bit more actively engaged you know, making phone calls and making sure that we're more engaged on the process of hey, everything's fine. You know this is just a process, it takes a little bit of time for transitions to happen would be mainly the difference. But other than that, you know we try to keep things pretty much the same. \n\nStuart: And such a great point of identifying where those pain points are ahead of time and kind of getting ahead of the curve, because I can imagine that scenario where people are busy doing other things and then they're transferring a significant amount of their future and then crickets from other organizations or this is just what it is. We're getting in touch with you and it's all sorted out. And knowing those ahead of time and kind of smoothing the path again. It's just that difference between being a number in a big accounting system versus being an individual that you're working with and building that relationship. \n\nHeidi: And that's probably the one thing that we're very good at is getting to people's pain before they ever communicate it, you know, and letting them know. We understand we've been through this before. But if you are ever feeling uncomfortable in any way, reach out. You know. Don't feel like we're not able to be attainable in the same day or within the same hour of when you are feeling something. Don't ever let that fester. Just call up and you know we'll make sure to go over any and everything with you. \n\nStuart: Yeah, put your mind at ease as quick as possible. As soon as the thought or concern is there, get it sorted out. \n\nHeidi: Yeah, because it's scary, you know, I mean yeah whether you got a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars or five million dollars, you know that's all relative to the individual and what matters to them, and so you're moving someone's life savings. That's a scary process for them. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, 100%. The money is 100%, no matter what the actual dollar amount. One of the conversations that I had earlier this week was talking about using the book, since slightly using it as that asset, but then topic bridging into it. So we talked earlier about using it, the fact that it exists now it's kind of finding its own way out into the world in different ways. \n\nBut this idea of topic bridging from the conversations that are out there to the subjects that are in the book. So the example that springs to mind with your client groups, the kind of local people and the military people, their interests there's a commonality obviously in the products and the services and what you're trying to do for them, but there there's a certain amount of their motivations and their restrictions or constraints that are pretty different. But the subject of the book kind of covers both of those. If you had opportunity, if someone is coming in with a specific set of questions, for example the military families, where they're dealing with the different agencies that they have to work with and how that ties in with their retirement elements have there been opportunities to create other assets, yet other talking points around those pain points, but then bridge it into the book. So reaching out to groups where that's a problem and then talking about the book as a thing. \n\nHeidi: Yeah, I would say the majority of that kind of stuff, whether it be military or even college professors, teachers, firefighters they're all dealing with some sort of governmental agency which is not always the easiest people to work with. And so letting them know hey, we've worked with them multiple times, we know how to fill the paperwork out. Please just bring it by, we'll do it together. It'll make the process a lot simpler and we can log into whatever the system is, and then also saying hey, by the way, if you're in the military and you're going to move your TSP account, your wife or your husband, they have to sign off on that. So they're going to get an email, they have to agree to the transfer because it's a communal asset and them knowing that we know these things before they're going to happen, you know, builds the confidence and you know, same thing in the book, we kind of talk about that. You know, letting your asking questions of your advisor and seeing if they know how the process is really going to function and whether they understand those things. \n\nStuart: I wonder if there's opportunities and again, it's always a balance of the effort versus the reward but being able to do things like a simple web page that you could point the military families to that has a video of you talking about some of the military specific differences. And then so, by the way, the next step, download a copy of the book, because that covers some of the broader strategies and things that you need to be asking people. But all of these things, now that the main asset exists, just kind of like feeding the top of the funnel with something specific. Again, just to make that connection, the book exists now, so all of these extended ways of using it and leveraging it again, effort versus reward, but for those bigger groups of communities, might well be my goal can't speak might well be worth following on something like that. \n\nHeidi: And then create even like a video blog on the website that would talk specifically to those groups. \n\nStuart: Yeah, because I think it just it closes that gap even one more step. So it's probably not worth I mean, it might be at some point in the future but it's not worth today creating a whole other book for that particular funnel, but just to be able to to top and tail it slightly with something that's specific. It's yeah, just trying to leverage those assets as much as possible and then the best. So companies set up in March, the relationships you've got with those people who were early clients, from guessing to a certain degree came from previous relationships, but those early clients into the new clients and so it was that in terms of referrals and people's willingness to share your service with other people, has that been an easy conversation and obvious thing that people are doing, or is that a little bit? Is there any resistance from people because they are talking about finances and it's maybe they're not comfortable with it? \n\nHeidi: Actually, I would say about 90% of my business is coming from referrals and that is because when someone comes in and they actually feel comfortable and confident in their person, they're telling other people about it. So you know they're calling me up, hey, I told my friends they'll be calling. Or you know it's not even me prompting the conversation most of the time. My clients are now prompting those conversations with me and if they don't, then I'll just say you know, hey, if you know anybody that could benefit from you, just let me know and they'll be like yeah, you know so, and so I would say that the bulk of my business and the growth is referral based and that's just because people enjoy. \n\nYou know what we're doing. It's different. \n\nStuart: Right, yeah, great service and a great team and they're feeling comfortable and happy to make that connection Right. We often talk about this idea of kind of orchestrating referrals in a friendly way that adds value and doesn't just start with asking for referral, which is a little bit asking, rather than taking the ideas that in the book and the communications that you're sending out with those people there's probably opportunities through the year, end of year tax planning, kids going off to college, all of these kind of like financial milestones that are likely to happen out there, the email communications that you send out saying this event's happening, these things are happening. We come up to this particular milestone, if you hear anyone talking about it. Actually, we've got a great chapter that covers this in the book. Happy to send you a copy to give to them. So the topic bridging type ideas and reminding them that the orchestrated referral opportunity exists Again, the book exists. It's just a friendly giving way of accelerating that conversation. Yeah, hopefully business comes from it. \n\nHeidi: Yeah, I think it makes it an easier way If you're going to give your friend a book and say, hey, this is my advisor, read this and then tell me what you think, and then it just kind of opens that dialogue with them too, so that it's not daunting for people. You know, it's not a 500 page book on finance, so and we tried to make the concepts in there very attainable and not overly complicated things so that people felt that they could understand it. \n\nStuart: And that's such a fantastic point because I think sometimes people thinking they're thinking in a traditional book sense and that something that is 500 pages on a shelf needs to be some academic tone of how much information that they know, which, as I say all the time, the job of work of the book, the purpose of the book isn't to sell a book, is to start a conversation, and if you can encourage that conversation by people feeling good about it and that they're not, they don't feel stupid or they don't feel overwhelmed, it's just the easy next step towards the thing that needs to happen, which at some point is a conversation. \n\nSo I think as well, even if people don't necessarily try to don't let their egos get in the way and they're trying to write it just to share everything that they do, sometimes they undervalue the basics that they've kind of taken for granted years ago. Because we're in the business and typically as business owners, we're dealing with a more complicated end of the spectrum, because the simple end takes care of itself. It's easy to overlook that a lot of people's questions are at the simple end and not at the complicated ends, because that's where they are in their journey. \n\nHeidi: So I mean, think about it from our own perspective and life. If you're going to go to the doctor, I mean, do you know what's in the medical journals? Probably not, yeah, so, as the doctor, if they're coming in the room and all they're doing is vomiting out all of this data and stuff, that you have no clue what they're talking about, and then when they're fitting you, when you leave out there feeling like, well, I'm stupid, so it's not beneficial for the client, the patient you know you as the individual to make it complex. So, you know, just speak on people on the level in which they're at, and if they are on a higher level than those, conversations will come about later. \n\nStuart: That's the great point. They'll naturally go like understanding where in the journey, where in the front, you're speaking with them and those are other elements and naturally either going to quickly come out, and it can accelerate down that route, or they'll come out over time and it's unnecessary at this stage. \n\nHeidi: Yes, exactly. \n\nStuart: Such a great conversation same as last time. The time went so fast. I just did the same, where I want to make sure that people can find out more about what you guys are doing, either from just from an interest to see what you're doing or specifically for people looking for more tailored one on one financial device. Where's the best people play? It's definitely time to wrap up, because my tongue stopped working. The best place that people can go to find out more? \n\nHeidi: So our website is agapewealthcom. There's a lot of good information, including the book on the website talks about who we are. We have a video mon talk of me talking about you know who we are as an organization on there, as well as some bios of the people that work here. You know. It also has some strategies and things like that on the website where you can see some of the things that we do here in the office and it'll also give you our information where you can come in or set an appointment or set up a call with us to meet with me and kind of discuss those things. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, as always, we'll make sure we put the links in the show notes, so, whether people are listening to the or watching the video on the website or on the podcast player, the links will just be below so people can get straight through. Heidi, thank you so much. We've recorded this just in the week before Christmas, so really appreciate taking the time and driving some of your attention before it switches back to the family completely. Yes, then the and then we'll go live. I think we're a couple of weeks out, so this will be one of the first episodes in 2024, so I think it'll be great to check back in sometime later in the year and see how things are going, and perfect. \n\nHeidi: Merry Christmas and happy new year to you. \n\nStuart: Yeah, thank you. You too. Everyone, thanks for listening and watching along again. I hope you had a fantastic Christmas. We're excited to help more of you write more books in 2024 and get some of the engagement that Heidi's been getting. Thanks everyone. We will speak soon and have a great holiday. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we are joined again by Heidi Ardis, founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a Mississippi-based financial services company helping people all over the country plan a better retirement.
\n\nWe got to dive deeper into her story, from a corporate advisor role to starting her own company, and how that gave her the flexibility and time to really understand each of her clients and their unique situations.
\n\nThe conversation then turned to the opportunity of amplifying her voice and how that underpins her quality client relationships.
\n\nIn a competitive space like financial advisors, it can be difficult to stand out, but her books, emails, and really all the ways she interacts with people allow her to share her approach and let potential clients say, 'Yes, I want to work with Heidi'.
\n\nIn a world where the barrier to creating content is getting lower every day, amplifying your perspective is the only way to separate yourself from the crowd.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/158
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
EPISODE CHAPTERS
\n\n(0:00:01) - Retirement Planning Conversations With Clients
\nHeidi Ardis transitioned from corporate wealth management to starting her own firm, Agape Wealth, with a focus on retirement income planning and efficient wealth distribution.
(0:07:10) - Importance of Confidence in Financial Advisors
\nUnderstanding client expectations and customizing advice, addressing challenging questions, and the role of language in financial services.
(0:12:48) - Engaging People in Financial Conversations
\nEngaging individuals in financial discussions, involving both spouses, educating about retirement strategies, and serving as a resource for broader financial planning.
(0:19:25) - Written Communication in Financial Planning
\nWritten materials can bolster credibility and empower clients to engage with finances through an app.
(0:23:50) - Engagement and Follow-Up With Clients
\nAnnual reviews and client involvement in financial planning, digital engagement, and managing out-of-state relationships.
(0:32:18) - Leveraging Assets and Orchestrating Referrals
\nUnderstanding and supporting specialized communities through tailored financial advice, leveraging existing assets, and orchestrating referrals for growth.
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nHeidi: How are you?
\n\nStuart: Very good. Thank you, I was just saying before we recorded. I still have some kind of COVID. Reign in that time is a flexible elastic band and it seems like it was ages since we spoke, but actually it was only a couple of months, so excited to check in and see how things are going.
\n\nHeidi: Things have been going well and, yes, it's that time of year and everybody seems to be sick.
\n\nStuart: Do you know, my folks were across from the UK and we're up in Pennsylvania, the offices down in Florida, my brother's down in Florida as well, so parents managed to survive flights flying in here but get down to Florida and everyone was sick down there. So then the left went back to the UK and people were sick there and it's definitely that time of year in the northern hemisphere.
\n\nHeidi: That's correct.
\n\nStuart: yes, yeah, it goes fast, okay, so let's give people a quick update or circle back. Not everyone listens to all of the past shows, so let's start with a quick recap of you and Agape in the business, and then we can go into the book and talk about what's happened since we last spoke.
\n\nHeidi: Yep, so I've been in wealth management financial advising since about 2006. And this year, in 2023, opened my own firm, agape wealth, really as a faith based decision to kind of move into the realm of having a business that focused on my faith, family and finance and doing that for my clients. So, in turn, here we are with this, and so one of the things we really focus on here is retirement income planning and distribution of wealth. And how do you do that efficiently for Texas, for estates, and so you know it was recommended to me to write a book on that. So so we did. We wrote the simplified strategies for retirees how to defend and distribute wealth with proper planning and so that led me to the 90 minute books and into you.
\n\nStuart: And here we are. That so 2023. When in this year did you start and prior to that, was it more corporate based financial planning for one of the bigger firms?
\n\nHeidi: So this coming started in March of 2023. Prior to that, I had worked in an independent firm for about four years, but before that, yes, was mostly corporate.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think it's always an interesting journey that leads people through kind of realises. You hear kind of like a similar story of increasingly more going more and more independent away from the bigger houses, financial visors. It definitely happens for those people who have got that by the kicked out of the nest sometimes, who are kind of drawn to being more independent. I think last time we were talking we were diving a little bit into that benefit of being on your own and stealing your own ship and just having more time for individual clients, relationship based, the opportunity to be more relationship based with people. Kind of eight months down the track now, is that really what you found? You do you get that extra time with people, unlike a bigger firm.
\n\nHeidi: Yes, I mean, it has been not only a lifestyle change for me, because you think, when you go to open your own company, that you're going to be busier, and what I have found is that my life in general has gotten better and therefore I'm able to give more to my clients, because if my daughter, who is in you, know soccer and she's on a travel team, if she has a game, I don't have to think about whether I'm going to be able to go or not.
\n\nI get to be a part of their lives and, in turn, I want my clients to feel that. And so, yeah, it's been an amazing transition that you know I'm building something that is personally rewarding in terms of my own household, with my kids, who are my son is almost a teenager and my daughter is a teenager, so you know we're in those years. But also we drink coffee together and I tell them I'm like, listen, I am not booking out tons and tons of appointments every day. I have open space throughout the day. If you want to come by and see me, I'm available for you. So they don't feel that I'm not attainable to them.
\n\nStuart: Right. It kind of breaks it from that nine to five. This is office hours in see, we're trying to be flexible both for family and for clients and do what works for them. Such a great opportunity. It kind of disconnects that just arbitrary clock into something that's more kind of flexible. And he says I think people across the board appreciate it more because they're not necessarily just on nine to five customers now. They're just not on nine to five timeframes either. They're just much more used to working or having access to people in a place and and manage it fits them better.
\n\nHeidi: Or feeling like they're in, can be their advisor by coming by and wanting to chat with them. You know I don't want people to feel that way and so we've really created that environment and even if I am in a meeting, They'll come in and they'll sit down and you know the girls in the office will go out and hang out and you know they don't feel like their jobs are sitting at their computer. You know their job to be a part of the clients and know who they are.
\n\nStuart: It's so funny, is there when you think back. So I'm out of my 48, so 28 years, 20, 30 years working that kind of timeframe, and I can remember the early jobs before email. I mean even working for pretty big companies back in the time it was really the first job, at least, was pre email. So you think in the cadence of that work and the activities that were done day by day it's definitely not connected to a device. So I think an immediate reply it's much more having that little bit of extra time to deal with things as the day progresses.
\n\nYeah such a better lifestyle choice and more rewarding than being locked in a cubicle for certain Correct.
\n\nHeidi: Exactly.
\n\nStuart: So the work and the approach. So the retirement planning and that being a big element of people's interest in financial planning generally, it's obviously their end goal. For most people is they're thinking about it, perhaps after houses, taking care of and as people's, people's interest in financial planning towards that stage, the conversations that you have with clients and their understanding of retirement planning. I'm always interested to people. Are you having conversations with people where they're a knowledgeable audience and it's very technical, or is it going to introduce the ideas to them and almost a holistic, broad perspective, give them the guidance and help steer the ship, but they're not necessarily interested in the technical details, or is it, as I say, more technically oriented and they're kind of diving into the details? What's your experience?
\n\nHeidi: with clients they're probably 80 to 85% is more of a holistic, non technical approach, because that would be the population at all. They really just want to know where am I, where are we going and how is it going to function and does it work for my life? So you know, looking at the broader picture, you know we run a lot of reports. Obviously that'll be really in depth, but then it's. You know we're not going to go into those reports. If you want that data or more than happy to give that to you. But really my approach is to show them okay, here's where you're currently at, here's when you want to retire, this is how much you can have in retirement and never run out of money If we do these things, and this is how we're going to draw the income and this is how we're going to live off of it.
\n\nAnd that's what most people are looking for is really just the roadmap. They don't need to know how the internal workings of Google and the Google Maps is. They just want to know that when they put in a destination, they're going to reach it. But then you know there are some clients who are very technical. You know more of the engineers and people of the world, and so with those people, you, as the advisor, need to be knowledgeable enough about what you're presenting to be able to answer their questions and to be able to back it up with the data.
\n\nStuart: That's actually a great point. It's the confidence that people are looking for. There's a certain expectation, I think, that everyone no matter whether they're a doctor or marketing company or financial advisor there's the expectation that everyone's got when working with someone that you know your job and you can do the outcome. I think that having confidence and the personal connection that you're the right person and of all the people that they could choose, they're happy and comfortable that they've chosen you. So being able to not necessarily start off with those details but have them there to hand if people question and drill down, that really kind of bridges that gap between not getting stuck in the weeds and scaring the majority of people away, but also providing that value and guidance and helpful resource for the people, no matter what their level is, either the introductory or the detailed.
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, I think it's probably the number one biggest problem in this industry is that financial advisors do not know what they are doing, and most of them are just doing what they're told. They don't research for themselves, they just trust that when their owner of the company or the owner of the corporation says here's this what you should sell or here's what you should do because this person's 35 or 45 and they have this much money, and you know, they put everybody in a box and they don't go out and read the contracts or look through the data for themselves and truly understand what they're doing. And then when they have that hard client that starts asking them questions, they can't answer it and so but that's probably a lot of people in the world they just kind of they're told.
\n\nStuart: Right, I just kind of I don't know if this is insulting or derogatory, but I was going to say it's kind of like the paycheck mentality of just going in and doing a job and I'm here to just follow the instructions and not necessarily have the interest or the exploratory nature to go in and find out what the real situation is behind the scenes.
\n\nHeidi: I wonder if that's self-selecting About money, so you can make a lot of money and not really have to work as hard.
\n\nStuart: And so that's what I'm saying Self-selecting across the kind of people who are in those financial advisors versus the independent guys who are more interested in the subject and not just executing on paycheck and rolling through clients within a small window and then just getting on to the next one.
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, and there's even independent firms. That I think it's a problem, because you have a large independent firm and you got, you know, seven or eight or nine advisors in one office and then it becomes pretty similar to a corporate office. Right, that's true, so you know it's like you just really, as someone who are out searching for the right person, need to make sure that you are confident in the person sitting in front of you, that they are knowledgeable.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, do you find that with clients who come in? Is the clients understand that problem and know the challenges of working with someone who's just kind of a cookie cutter trying to put them in the mold, or are they more coming in and kind of expressing a dissatisfaction maybe not getting the personal attention that they need? What am I trying to ask, kind of like from the client's perspective? Do they know what the problem is or do they just have a feeling that it's not quite working with other places?
\n\nHeidi: I think it's both. I think they feel like they're trying to communicate with their current advisor, or they've sat down with a few people and they're just not feeling like that person's giving them what they need. But also they may not be able to pinpoint exactly why or what that is, but they just kind of know that something's not right. But then they also people don't like saying no. So then you know you're sitting in an office and you're like well, these people have a thousand clients, like what's wrong with me?
\n\nStuart: that I don't have a good fit.
\n\nHeidi: But just because a firm has a lot of clients or has a big operation does not mean that they are good at their jobs, I mean, or that they're going to give you a one on one personalized financial plan. It just means that you know they've done good. I mean, walmart brings in a lot of clients Doesn't mean that they're the best place to go.
\n\nStuart: Right, it's such a great point, isn't it? People's kind of perception of, well, everyone is the crowd mentality, everyone else is doing this. It must be me, not them. I think the other thing, kind of being on the side of, I might have mentioned last time my background is in IT for financial services organizations. So there was a period of time that I was doing the financial services authority in the UK would do some financial education workshops in and around the country. I did some in London.
\n\nSo we go into workplaces and then talk to a group of 15 or 20 people just about some of the basics nothing too in depth, but even trying to talk about so savings accounts, the IRA equivalents in the UK, pensions generally, just the fact that employers might be matching contributions and the certain restrictions, but the main different definitions of defined contribution and defined benefit plans. Even at that relatively straightforward level we try to keep it easy to consume. You can still see people glazing out because, although technically it's not complicated, I don't know whether it's a lack of confidence for people and they just feel like this is a complicated thing and I can't handle it, I'm not equipped, or whether it's a lack of interest and it's too scary or daunting and they almost put in the shutters up. Do you find that as well, talking to your clients, or your clients tend to be more engaged because they are looking for someone with a more personal connection and an educated view on things.
\n\nHeidi: So what I have found is generally, especially if people are married, one is very engaged and the other one is completely non engaged. So it's like if you're sitting in front of a group of 15 people, maybe three or four of them are going to be really paying attention and the rest of them are thinking, well, my spouse does that, or this isn't something that I need to worry about right now, and or I'm terrible with money, so I'm not even going to listen, because it's this internal struggle of well, I'm not going to do it right anyway.
\n\nStuart: So I'm not even going to try, it's not even trying.
\n\nHeidi: So I think that if know what I try to do, especially because normally you know, I live in South Mississippi, so normally the male is the one who runs the finances, and I just think that's just kind of like a generational thing, where the guy works and the wife works, but not necessarily on the same level or whatever, and so the man will come in and he just thinks he's going to dominate the conversation of what we're going to do.
\n\nAnd this is where we're going, and for me it's extremely important to engage the wife. Listen, more than likely he's going to die first, based on data and statistics, and then this is going to be on you. Even though you may not feel it's important, it's going to be important to you. So we at least want you to be engaged in the conversation, know what we're doing and why it's for your benefit, so that, because we do have a lot of males around here, especially we have a lot of military bases, so there's a lot of pensions and we need to make sure, if there's not a full survivorship benefit, how are we going to make up for that? So I think you need to engage those people that do not feel that this is their problem or are uncomfortable, because in doing that you really are able to make the dynamic of the conversation and the plan better.
\n\nStuart: And, as you say, particularly with those statistics on who's likely to be the surviving spouse. It's very real. I often think that we moved house two years ago and there's kind of bits and pieces of things I've done around the house that I know where the switches are and the breakers are, and even just the physical incarnation of if anything happened to me. There was that sudden realization that I need to make sure that Lucy knows where all of the skeletons in which closets are hidden and where the switches are. From a financial perspective, even more so because it's such a real and can be complicated thing to sort out at the moment of a painful event, of trying to deal with all of the life elements of a spouse passing just to make sure you've got your docks in your row and at least you know the person to go and speak to, which your personal connection with people. Again, that's just adding to that, adding to that service that you provide or the support that you provide for people.
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, and with the baby boomers. I mean, we're in a generation where they are now dealing with this on a level from their own parents, who their parents did not necessarily talk to them about money or any financial situation. So their parents pass away and then it's them trying to figure it all out, and so it's a good conversation to have. Are you having these conversations with your spouse? Are you having these conversations with your own children? Not that you have to tell your children specifically how much money they're going to inherit, but are you having the conversation? Hey, if something happens to me or your mom, reach out. This is our financial advisor, this is who we deal with. This is our lawyer, whoever the person is, so that they know who to contact and who has the plan. That it's not all on them, because when someone does pass away, it becomes this big burden on the family if they have no clue what's going on.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, to try and dig through the details at that moment and with all of the conflicting reckons that people have of what conversations they've had with people in the past, it just makes it so difficult the ideas that we've brought together in the book.
\n\nSo the simplified strategies, the simplified retirement strategies, those starting points for the conversations I was this week's coincidentally been a week of podcast, so I was just recording with someone yesterday and the conversation we were having there was around the fact that the asset now exists. It's a jumping off point for many conversations. So, even if the subject specifically isn't mentioned in the book, it's still the opportunity to use the book as a backup piece, as a as a deeper dive or as a broader context piece. Now that it's been out there for a period of time and you've used it in different ways, do you find that actually I've got a cover let me just make sure that people know what we're talking about. So the cover's up on the screen there for people watching rather than listening. So do you find that now that the book is out there, that there's more opportunities to use it and refer to it then perhaps, when you first were thinking about creating it?
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, actually, you know, I've had clients who are existing clients, who come in and they're like, hey, I really want my kids to have your book. And they've actually been coming in and getting them. Or, you know, you can download them from our website, agapewealthcom. But because of that, they're getting their kids now actively engaged in their conversations, because they're like, look, you know, this is my advisor. These are some of the things that she thinks are important and one of those is, you know, starting early. So if you have a client who's 50 and they got kids in their 20s or early 30s, it's a, it's an opening, that dialogue for them. It's also made it where you know people are actually downloading the book and then they're reaching out to us and say, hi, I'd like to come in for a meeting. So it's done that for us as well. But I think it's also with existing clients, given them a level of confidence that you know, while she put these things in writing, she obviously means what she's done.
\n\nStuart: I think that as well, that psychological cues that it gives people. It's not something that we talk about I don't think we talk about it that much but the fact that people will get a copy and then, even if they don't read it word for word or understand it word for word, it still gives them the indication of the direction that you're trying to guide people. And then when they come in and meet you face to face and you're saying the same things, it almost has an amplified power because they're not hearing it from you for the first time. It's almost the fact that what you're saying is reinforcing what they read in a book, even though it's your book. So I think that reinforcement is such a powerful, subliminal element to the fact that people are writing something in the way that they say things, in the way that they believe in the structure, that it really does reinforce it.
\n\nAnd the other thing that you've said that was interesting as well is this idea that it starts other conversations, so with the one person in the relationship being more interested than another, using it to kind of highlight or point out or use that as an introduction to a conversation with a partner or, as you're saying with the kids, introducing the idea to the kids that they want to start early, and there's such a big advantage and this idea that it can be a jumping off point for a conversation and an easy way in just really is a huge advantage to the equivalent of trying to do it. I mean, you could put the same words on a page on a website, but that doesn't have the same authority or it doesn't communicate the same meaning or it doesn't give the opportunities for those conversations in the same way. So let me think about it. Now it exists, it's got an extra benefit.
\n\nHeidi: Yep, and I think it has helped you know, just solidify that. One of the main focuses of the book was to empower you as the individual to ask questions of people, get more than one opinion, make sure you're confident, and it also gives you some strategies for those conversations. Hey, if I'm your client, will I be getting X? You know, the point of the book for me at first was really to empower people to ask questions and to be able to say no and understand that this is your money. You know your money. Even though you're entrusting me to guide you, at the end of the day, you have the right to say I don't think this is working, and you shouldn't be embarrassed by that and you should not ever feel guilty for being honest with the person that's working with you.
\n\nStuart: Right, particularly when there's such an important outcome at the end of it. I mean, this is people's for the most part. I think this is people's one main shop. They may have other assets elsewhere. The house is obviously a big asset for some people, but in terms of disposable income to support you through the rest of your life, these decisions made around here, it's not something that ideally you just kind of give away and never think about again and turn up at the end and hope that it all worked because it would be great if it did. But if it didn't then the ship sailed a little bit. So good to check in with.
\n\nThis idea of having clients who are in it for the long run and maybe aren't as enthusiastically engaged with the subject you mentioned before, about this whole raft of reports that you could share with people, some of which might seem overwhelming. Do you have a feel for what's the right level of information, or have you been able to bundle it together in a way that's easy for people to consume and then, of course, give them more details if they want it? But at least at that first level, in the review meetings that you're doing with people in the check-ins, is there a way that you feel like you've come up with that way of positioning it at the right level so that it is comfortable for them?
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, so we have an actual app that people have access to on their phone where all their accounts, whether it be with different companies or wherever they are, can link. You can even link your own personal stuff, so your bank account or your mortgage. You can put all your stuff in one place. And so that particular app, I can go in and we can update your plan. Or you can even go in and do what-if scenarios what if I purchase the camper, what if I want to buy a new house or a second home and it'll help you along the way and so and it's pretty user-friendly. So we have that for our clients, which they like. People like stuff on their phones, but also when you come in.
\n\nYou know I'm not giving you some hundred-page report. We're going over one or two pages of you know. Here's where we were last year. Here's where we are this year, based on what we predicted last year. Are we on track? And if the answer is yes, has there been any changes that we need to be aware of? You know, until we update, and some people want to come in once a year. Some people want to come in, you know, every three months. Some people want to call me every month, you know, but it just kind of depends on your level of engagement. But for those people that you know, don't really they're like, please just take this and do it. We still are going to make you at least come in once a year At least.
\n\nLook at it, you know over the finances and say, hey, here's where we are, things are looking. Okay, you know, let's stay on track. Do you need more money? Do you need less money? How are things feeling? And so we try to keep it simple.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, we often talk with people about you mentioned that people downloading the book and then it's showing employment kind of independent of any other any other action on the team's part. But we often speak to people about when they think about creating a book. Is that path through? So, talking about those reports and the experience that people have when they are clients, always trying to look for ways of replicating that in that journey when people are self selecting themselves. So illustrations are something which is big in the UK for financial planners but they're pretty restricted on what you can show and of dubious value. Sometimes it gets a little bit same. But those people who opt in for a copy of the book and then you have their email details, do you have a follow up sequence with them so that they are receiving additional things until they the points right for them that they raise their hand, or is it a pretty short path where they're downloading a copy and then just coming in pretty quick?
\n\nHeidi: Well, I mean typically, if you're downloading the book, well, you're putting in your name, your email address, your phone number and then there's a comments section, and so most of them are asking at that point for us to reach out.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nHeidi: So, but if they don't, if they just download it and all they do is give us their information, then we will email them thanking them for downloading the book and let them know. We'll call them in a week or so to see how they liked it and if they would like to set an appointment at that point. The next step?
\n\nStuart: yeah, do you have. It's super interesting actually that people are requesting it and a meeting in that they're like immediately thinking about taking that next step. I think that's probably.
\n\nHeidi: We had two just in the last week that downloaded it and requested meetings at the same time.
\n\nStuart: Actually that's super interesting.
\n\nSo the majority of time that we're talking to people, we're talking about those digital downloads in a kind of name address, download it and then follow up with an email sequence and, within that email sequence, make some offers then or suggestions that they take next step and come in.
\n\nBut wording the form that includes a comment or which area you're most interested in or what can we help you with or what you're struggling with, adding that as a field to the form, might well be an accelerator to that journey, which I'm going to start stealing and I'll give you credit for the idea. But yeah, that is really something that we haven't. I don't think. I mean, I know some people do it, but it's definitely not something that we talk about because we're really thinking about this longer term. But maybe the expense of those people who are immediately ready to go now, for those ones who are immediately ready to start or respond to something when you reach out, it's the first step that they really need to come in. There isn't really a self-serving step in between coming in. Is the first interaction meaningful interaction? Really they need to have a meeting with you as an impersonal on Zoom to actually go through some numbers, or is it more of a kind of theoretical conversation where you're just talking about general direction?
\n\nHeidi: So the first conversation is typically with one of the other people that work in the office and they're contacting them, asking them questions that you know and then that kind of prompts would you like to have a meeting with Heidi and the advisor to discuss your concerns? You know, and we can either set that up as a phone call or a Zoom or an in-person meeting. You know whatever they want. We have a lot of clients that are out of state, so they usually will do a Zoom meeting. So for us I think it's kind of just contacting them and saying, hey, well, we know you've read the book or you've done the book. You know what was that about it, that you had concerns, questions, comments, that kind of thing, and so that's one of the team members that will do that, and then after that they'll set a meeting with me.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, you mentioned that out of state ones we were. I think we were talking last time about the military families because of that kind of disbursement effect of people getting relocated, redeployed elsewhere. How much of a challenge is it, or is it no challenge at all? The difference between those local clients versus the remote ones? Is it pretty seamless? Or is there a difference in approach, apart from the fact they're not going to pop in?
\n\nHeidi: So I think the only differences we need to be more actively engaged a little bit in terms of when they do become a client, that process of when the money's transitioning, because that can be a four to six week process. So if you don't have any interaction, you know physically, and you've never, like actually sat down with a person in person, sometimes that can be a little scary. So I think keeping those people a little bit more actively engaged you know, making phone calls and making sure that we're more engaged on the process of hey, everything's fine. You know this is just a process, it takes a little bit of time for transitions to happen would be mainly the difference. But other than that, you know we try to keep things pretty much the same.
\n\nStuart: And such a great point of identifying where those pain points are ahead of time and kind of getting ahead of the curve, because I can imagine that scenario where people are busy doing other things and then they're transferring a significant amount of their future and then crickets from other organizations or this is just what it is. We're getting in touch with you and it's all sorted out. And knowing those ahead of time and kind of smoothing the path again. It's just that difference between being a number in a big accounting system versus being an individual that you're working with and building that relationship.
\n\nHeidi: And that's probably the one thing that we're very good at is getting to people's pain before they ever communicate it, you know, and letting them know. We understand we've been through this before. But if you are ever feeling uncomfortable in any way, reach out. You know. Don't feel like we're not able to be attainable in the same day or within the same hour of when you are feeling something. Don't ever let that fester. Just call up and you know we'll make sure to go over any and everything with you.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, put your mind at ease as quick as possible. As soon as the thought or concern is there, get it sorted out.
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, because it's scary, you know, I mean yeah whether you got a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars or five million dollars, you know that's all relative to the individual and what matters to them, and so you're moving someone's life savings. That's a scary process for them.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, 100%. The money is 100%, no matter what the actual dollar amount. One of the conversations that I had earlier this week was talking about using the book, since slightly using it as that asset, but then topic bridging into it. So we talked earlier about using it, the fact that it exists now it's kind of finding its own way out into the world in different ways.
\n\nBut this idea of topic bridging from the conversations that are out there to the subjects that are in the book. So the example that springs to mind with your client groups, the kind of local people and the military people, their interests there's a commonality obviously in the products and the services and what you're trying to do for them, but there there's a certain amount of their motivations and their restrictions or constraints that are pretty different. But the subject of the book kind of covers both of those. If you had opportunity, if someone is coming in with a specific set of questions, for example the military families, where they're dealing with the different agencies that they have to work with and how that ties in with their retirement elements have there been opportunities to create other assets, yet other talking points around those pain points, but then bridge it into the book. So reaching out to groups where that's a problem and then talking about the book as a thing.
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, I would say the majority of that kind of stuff, whether it be military or even college professors, teachers, firefighters they're all dealing with some sort of governmental agency which is not always the easiest people to work with. And so letting them know hey, we've worked with them multiple times, we know how to fill the paperwork out. Please just bring it by, we'll do it together. It'll make the process a lot simpler and we can log into whatever the system is, and then also saying hey, by the way, if you're in the military and you're going to move your TSP account, your wife or your husband, they have to sign off on that. So they're going to get an email, they have to agree to the transfer because it's a communal asset and them knowing that we know these things before they're going to happen, you know, builds the confidence and you know, same thing in the book, we kind of talk about that. You know, letting your asking questions of your advisor and seeing if they know how the process is really going to function and whether they understand those things.
\n\nStuart: I wonder if there's opportunities and again, it's always a balance of the effort versus the reward but being able to do things like a simple web page that you could point the military families to that has a video of you talking about some of the military specific differences. And then so, by the way, the next step, download a copy of the book, because that covers some of the broader strategies and things that you need to be asking people. But all of these things, now that the main asset exists, just kind of like feeding the top of the funnel with something specific. Again, just to make that connection, the book exists now, so all of these extended ways of using it and leveraging it again, effort versus reward, but for those bigger groups of communities, might well be my goal can't speak might well be worth following on something like that.
\n\nHeidi: And then create even like a video blog on the website that would talk specifically to those groups.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, because I think it just it closes that gap even one more step. So it's probably not worth I mean, it might be at some point in the future but it's not worth today creating a whole other book for that particular funnel, but just to be able to to top and tail it slightly with something that's specific. It's yeah, just trying to leverage those assets as much as possible and then the best. So companies set up in March, the relationships you've got with those people who were early clients, from guessing to a certain degree came from previous relationships, but those early clients into the new clients and so it was that in terms of referrals and people's willingness to share your service with other people, has that been an easy conversation and obvious thing that people are doing, or is that a little bit? Is there any resistance from people because they are talking about finances and it's maybe they're not comfortable with it?
\n\nHeidi: Actually, I would say about 90% of my business is coming from referrals and that is because when someone comes in and they actually feel comfortable and confident in their person, they're telling other people about it. So you know they're calling me up, hey, I told my friends they'll be calling. Or you know it's not even me prompting the conversation most of the time. My clients are now prompting those conversations with me and if they don't, then I'll just say you know, hey, if you know anybody that could benefit from you, just let me know and they'll be like yeah, you know so, and so I would say that the bulk of my business and the growth is referral based and that's just because people enjoy.
\n\nYou know what we're doing. It's different.
\n\nStuart: Right, yeah, great service and a great team and they're feeling comfortable and happy to make that connection Right. We often talk about this idea of kind of orchestrating referrals in a friendly way that adds value and doesn't just start with asking for referral, which is a little bit asking, rather than taking the ideas that in the book and the communications that you're sending out with those people there's probably opportunities through the year, end of year tax planning, kids going off to college, all of these kind of like financial milestones that are likely to happen out there, the email communications that you send out saying this event's happening, these things are happening. We come up to this particular milestone, if you hear anyone talking about it. Actually, we've got a great chapter that covers this in the book. Happy to send you a copy to give to them. So the topic bridging type ideas and reminding them that the orchestrated referral opportunity exists Again, the book exists. It's just a friendly giving way of accelerating that conversation. Yeah, hopefully business comes from it.
\n\nHeidi: Yeah, I think it makes it an easier way If you're going to give your friend a book and say, hey, this is my advisor, read this and then tell me what you think, and then it just kind of opens that dialogue with them too, so that it's not daunting for people. You know, it's not a 500 page book on finance, so and we tried to make the concepts in there very attainable and not overly complicated things so that people felt that they could understand it.
\n\nStuart: And that's such a fantastic point because I think sometimes people thinking they're thinking in a traditional book sense and that something that is 500 pages on a shelf needs to be some academic tone of how much information that they know, which, as I say all the time, the job of work of the book, the purpose of the book isn't to sell a book, is to start a conversation, and if you can encourage that conversation by people feeling good about it and that they're not, they don't feel stupid or they don't feel overwhelmed, it's just the easy next step towards the thing that needs to happen, which at some point is a conversation.
\n\nSo I think as well, even if people don't necessarily try to don't let their egos get in the way and they're trying to write it just to share everything that they do, sometimes they undervalue the basics that they've kind of taken for granted years ago. Because we're in the business and typically as business owners, we're dealing with a more complicated end of the spectrum, because the simple end takes care of itself. It's easy to overlook that a lot of people's questions are at the simple end and not at the complicated ends, because that's where they are in their journey.
\n\nHeidi: So I mean, think about it from our own perspective and life. If you're going to go to the doctor, I mean, do you know what's in the medical journals? Probably not, yeah, so, as the doctor, if they're coming in the room and all they're doing is vomiting out all of this data and stuff, that you have no clue what they're talking about, and then when they're fitting you, when you leave out there feeling like, well, I'm stupid, so it's not beneficial for the client, the patient you know you as the individual to make it complex. So, you know, just speak on people on the level in which they're at, and if they are on a higher level than those, conversations will come about later.
\n\nStuart: That's the great point. They'll naturally go like understanding where in the journey, where in the front, you're speaking with them and those are other elements and naturally either going to quickly come out, and it can accelerate down that route, or they'll come out over time and it's unnecessary at this stage.
\n\nHeidi: Yes, exactly.
\n\nStuart: Such a great conversation same as last time. The time went so fast. I just did the same, where I want to make sure that people can find out more about what you guys are doing, either from just from an interest to see what you're doing or specifically for people looking for more tailored one on one financial device. Where's the best people play? It's definitely time to wrap up, because my tongue stopped working. The best place that people can go to find out more?
\n\nHeidi: So our website is agapewealthcom. There's a lot of good information, including the book on the website talks about who we are. We have a video mon talk of me talking about you know who we are as an organization on there, as well as some bios of the people that work here. You know. It also has some strategies and things like that on the website where you can see some of the things that we do here in the office and it'll also give you our information where you can come in or set an appointment or set up a call with us to meet with me and kind of discuss those things.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, as always, we'll make sure we put the links in the show notes, so, whether people are listening to the or watching the video on the website or on the podcast player, the links will just be below so people can get straight through. Heidi, thank you so much. We've recorded this just in the week before Christmas, so really appreciate taking the time and driving some of your attention before it switches back to the family completely. Yes, then the and then we'll go live. I think we're a couple of weeks out, so this will be one of the first episodes in 2024, so I think it'll be great to check back in sometime later in the year and see how things are going, and perfect.
\n\nHeidi: Merry Christmas and happy new year to you.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, thank you. You too. Everyone, thanks for listening and watching along again. I hope you had a fantastic Christmas. We're excited to help more of you write more books in 2024 and get some of the engagement that Heidi's been getting. Thanks everyone. We will speak soon and have a great holiday.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we are joined again by Heidi Ardis, founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a Mississippi-based financial services company helping people all over the country plan a better retirement.\r\n\r\nWe got to dive deeper into her story, from a corporate advisor role to starting her own company, and how that gave her the flexibility and time to really understand each of her clients and their unique situations.\r\n\r\nThe conversation then turned to the opportunity of amplifying her voice and how that underpins her quality client relationships. \r\n\r\nIn a competitive space like financial advisors, it can be difficult to stand out, but her books, emails, and really all the ways she interacts with people allow her to share her approach and let potential clients say, 'Yes, I want to work with Heidi'.\r\n\r\nIn a world where the barrier to creating content is getting lower every day, amplifying your perspective is the only way to separate yourself from the crowd.","date_published":"2024-02-04T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/1dc2c104-474d-4a46-8a01-2688ff1f6a71.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30110321,"duration_in_seconds":2499}]},{"id":"5d9e889b-27e2-45c4-aa11-2ee4e190de16","title":"Ep157: Finding Clients Through House Hacking with Scott & Zach Asbell","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/157","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we’re talking about the father-son mortgage team of Scott and Zach Asbell. \n\nWith decades of combined experience, they share some great stories about building their family business, navigating fluctuating housing markets, and the importance of trust in client relationships. \n\nThis is where their books shine, as they give the opportunity to start the conversation by helping people first.\n\nTheir latest book, ‘Own a Home Cheaper Than Rent’, born from Zach’s personal experience, does just that by providing real insights into the possibility of owning a home for a generation who believe it’s out of reach.\n\nScott and Zach share some great insights into tailoring content to attract and maintain long-term interest, and we also touch on the transformational impact of having written a book as Zach reflects on the recognition of his work. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nScott and Zach Asbell discuss the dynamics of their father-son partnership in the mortgage business, operating across 42 states from Utah, with a focus on client trust and adapting to market changes.\nZach's transition back into the family business and his hands-on experience in buying and managing properties as part of an affordability solution for homeownership is highlighted.\nThe episode covers Utah's political landscape and its encouragement of accessory dwelling units to address housing shortages, demonstrating how state policy can impact real estate strategies.\nWe explore the concept of house hacking, noting that approximately 25 to 30 percent of their Utah clients use this strategy to afford homeownership in their desired neighborhoods earlier than anticipated.\nThe Asbells share how they utilize a book as a top-of-funnel tool to educate clients about real estate strategies, serving as a conversation starter rather than a comprehensive guide.\nContent creation strategies are discussed, emphasizing the importance of concise and engaging content to maintain client engagement over time without overwhelming them with information.\nThe conversation touches on the impact of educational books on clients' credit scores, the shift in credit score requirements for the best loan rates, and the use of these resources for marketing and education.\nZach recounts the credibility and opportunities gained from authoring a book on credit, and we discuss the approachable process of book writing for those looking to establish authority in their field.\nWe discuss the benefit of having a variety of educational materials, including books and digital content, to expand reach and offer value to both consumers and businesses in the real estate market.\nThe episode concludes with well-wishes for the new year, expressing excitement for the future and the anticipation of following up with the Asbell team's progress in real estate and client engagement.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nScott Asbell* - LinkedIn\nAsbell Team Home Loans\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/157\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book more show. It's Stuart Bell here and today joined by Zach and Scott Asbell. Guys, how are you doing? This is going to be an exciting show because we know each other a little bit. We've kind of got to know each other through the book process and even before, because you guys know Dean. So I think our paths have crossed in that way and you're in that kind of by-and-by-through-all only type world. So the kind of circles are crossing over. But for everyone else out there, give a bit of a background on the world we usually just have. We often just have one guest, so give a bit of a background on the relationship, but then also what you guys do out there in Utah. \n\nScott: Well, we are a father-son team. We've been in the mortgage business it's almost like a family business for over 30 years now and it's just been fantastic. Zach and I run a branch here in Utah and our company services clients in 42 different states and we're just all about helping people and doing the right thing. We know that if we do the right thing over time, the business will come. \n\nStuart: Zach, were you in the business straight out of school or did you kind of go another path and then come back to working together? \n\nZach:: Yeah, right after I graduated with a business management degree. I ended up going a different path for about six to eight months and then Scott and I got to talk and we're like, hey, actually this might be a good fit, and so the more we dove into it. I started doing certain marketing elements for Scott and then, as we go further in, it's like, well, I better get licensed because it's just the path that at least you kind of a thing. \n\nStuart: It's such a nice. We've had a couple of family run businesses on the show before and then clients who we've worked with have been in a similar situation either husband and wife or parent and child and I always have a little bit of envy or jealousy because I'm obviously in the US now family's back in the UK, although my brother's over here and we get to work together, which is fantastic. But the occasions where I've had a chance to work closer with parents not in a business sense but on projects or family projects or something around the houses that opportunity just to spend that much, I don't even know if I'd describe it as quality time, but almost the incidental time. We're not just having that relationship in the peak moments, but just day to day through life. So always it's a great pleasure and privilege to talk to people like you who are in that situation, who get to share that time. And I think that comes through in the book as well as the stories brought together and seeing you guys go through the process, knowing how closely you're aligned. It's really interesting to see that come together and then present itself in the pages. \n\nSo, with that being said, I'm going to jump in ahead a little bit. Let's quickly cover who your clients are. So, as people are listening to this, we've obviously got many different business owners who are thinking about writing a book for their business or who have done and are thinking about ways of using it. Describe quickly you mentioned that you're in Utah but work across 42 states. How is that in term of remotely kind of connecting with those people, both at the top of the front of the first base and then as you work with them? \n\nScott: Yeah, that's a good question. So majority of our referrals as you mentioned already, stuart are referrals that come from clients, because we have a 3,000 client database that we've accumulated over 30 years and then a few real estate agents that we like that do business the way we do, that send us business. So it's very little advertising and that's great because those people come to us with a high level of trust. Already, the clients that we're specifically looking for would be people who want to purchase a one-to-four family property, either as an investment property or to live in on their own. And what's really happened and the reason this book came to light purchasing a home has gotten trickier over the last few years. Prices have gone up, rates have gone up. How can you still justify purchasing a home and make it work with the family's budget? \n\nAnd we were sitting there thinking, gee, you know what everyone needs to do, what Zach's doing. \n\nThis is like Zach:'s story, like. \n\nThis is a real life story of how he bought his first house, what he did, how he turned it into a rental, how he went and bought his next house, how that worked, what the numbers look like, what was his real payment for two homes rented the old house rented the basement on the new one. \n\nThen, when he went to buy the third house, it really became his story and has become such a popular strategy I'm going to say nationwide to the point where even a lot of, let's say, the state of Utah just in recent times has come out and said hey, we're going to open the gate a little wider and we're going to encourage and allow people to have ADUs accessory dwelling units, in their basement, because we have a serious housing issue and we have to find a way to create more housing for more families. So, as this is happening from a political side, we're also having the tried and tested strategy of how to make this work so you can buy a home with an ADU and literally have a house payment that's cheaper than you would if you were to rent. So that's kind of the big picture of what that looks like. \n\nStuart: It's such an interesting challenge, I think, the jewel kind of the conflicting or most jewel elements of costs, increasing affordability, getting more difficult wages, not necessarily keeping up well, not at all keeping up with that inflation, and then add interest rate changes on top of it. So looking for what some people might be very creative ways of achieving it. But, Zach, I guess this was your experience as well. Once you've been through it, once it's not as difficult as it might seem that there's a certain amount of unknown unknowns. But once those become known unknowns or unknown, known to whichever way around it is, then it becomes a little bit more straightforward. So your experience, was it intentionally moving down that path from the first property to the third property and beyond relatively quickly, or was it kind of like organic development? And now, as you look back, it's a very kind of um with the plan that someone else can follow it? \n\nZach:: was very intentional. Like when I look back at the first property, we knew going into that property, man, we're probably going to be here 12 to 12. 24 months Granted, with COVID happening that bumped it up to 12 months and we said, hey, you know, let's move to the next house. But I mean, as we look at it too, like the fun part about it is just seeing the compounding effect of getting that first home and moving to the second one we still have the same principal pay down and everything like that. But then to see the rents evolve over the last four or five years and just all those little things that add up to where now, looking back five years, saying, wow, that was a good time to buy that specific property. And you know, had we had the opportunity to go back, we might have even strategized a little bit differently. \n\nThe thing I like about this book is if I had this book back when I was buying my first property, it would have probably saved me a year or two on certain elements of it. As far as just the learning curve, like you're talking about, stuart, like when you go to rent that first time, you kind of know the gist of it, what you're looking for, but it's not really outlined. And that's the beauty of this book is it just takes all of the detail and combines it into 105 pages and says, hey, here's your you know quick guide of just how would we do it if we were to do it again. Right, and so that's the beauty of it. \n\nStuart: I think that's the element as well. I've got the cover here that just get it up on screen for people watching along. I love the. I love all our covers and the work that they're doing to obviously invested interest in loving them. But the thing I really like about this is it's so straightforward and clear and gives people an idea of what the content is, even just from seeing it as it passes by and, I guess, from a referral strategy or backing up the referral strategy those people who you work with, who know trust, you're ready, who know the type of work that you can do. \n\nThis is a very easy way of bridging that conversation into a non, non aggressive or non threatening. But it's an easy way for people to say oh, this is the book that Zach and Scott is talking about. I actually know someone who this is a perfect fit for the exact same situation that I was in. We were talking just before we started recording and mentioned that our oldest is 25 and is in a situation where buying isn't really a conversation that they're thinking about very much because they just see it as unachievable. But something like this is very easy for me to take this and pass it to them and it introduces the concepts and maybe starts the conversation in a slightly different way and then leads to obviously, the next step is speaking with you guys. So that referral strategy, writing it as something that other people, an easy way for other people to give and share what you do Was that the thought process from the start or was it more? Let's write it because this is a fantastic idea and worthwhile and then see how we can use it afterwards. \n\nZach: I'd say that, scott and I, when we go into consultation, there are certain elements of this book that will include, but it'd be hard for us to have a consultation unless it was going to be a two to three hour consultation that encapsulates all of the information. And so that's one of the beautiful things about the book is we're catching the prospect up to speed so that by the time we get into that consultation, it's a much different conversation versus hey, let's catch you up on this two to three hour lesson about why does house hacking make sense right now? What are the benefits of it from a tax perspective, all the way to getting into that next home a lot sooner, that specific neighborhood that you want to. And so that's the biggest thing that I love about the book is now, when we're going to be going into those consultations. The buyer's already caught up to speed and we're now having a very more tactical conversation to say, okay, we're at X, how do we get to Y? \n\nStuart: Right, such a great point, scott. Your experience having been in the business for longer, that's getting people up to speed. How much of a challenge was that in the early days? Did you find a lot of the conversations before things like this were available? \n\nScott: Were doing that again everyone on the same page to then have a conversation from yes, definitely, because we are so focused on education that I wonder if sometimes in the past we actually overdone it, as a client sitting in the office and we're an hour and a half into education and they start to doze off. We've overdone it. But I realize that's an exaggeration, but really, yeah, there's so many pieces of the foundation that we want our clients to understand and have in place so they can make really smart financial decisions, of which purchasing a home is one of those major decisions that we do. We spend a lot of time educating. \n\nSo is right on the money, that more education we can do before they come to sit with us, and the more people were able to help, the better prepared they are to come in with the right questions that they've sat on and thought about for a few days or weeks prior to our meeting. But you know, if somebody wants to come in and start from scratch, we'll do it and we probably break it into a couple of different consultations, because just this piece right here that's talking about Teaching someone about what are the pros and cons of a house hack Does it even work for you and your family? That could easily be a 45 minute conversation and we haven't even been able to run numbers yet or say well, how much house could you qualify for or what would this look like if you were to do it? So yeah, the more we can bring people up to speed so that they show up at the conversation with really good questions, thinking how's that going to apply to me and does it really work? That's where we want them to be. \n\nStuart: It's such an interesting point and I have the same challenge. I think all of us business owners have the same problem. I mean, the majority of us are doing what we do because we love what we do. We've got a passion for the industry, for the business. So wanting just to be able to take out that chip from your brain and put it in someone else's head so that they've got the same vision or the same understanding of what their outcome could really be is very difficult not to just want to enthusiastically share all of that with them. \n\nI was recording with Bob Mangold just yesterday as we record this, it'll be the show that goes live, the one in the sequence before this one and we were talking about the principle of a conversation starting book rather than a traditional book, and one of the elements is the outcome is you want to be in conversation with someone, either on Zoom or in person, bridging that gap between where they're coming from and hearing the words that are coming out of your mouth. \n\nOnce they get that one-on-one conversation, the fact that the conversation starting book is written in such a way that does communicate your methodology, your words, your approach, the language that you use, the way that you describe something. It just moves the real-life conversation, the one-on-one conversation, on so much faster because they've already got an appreciation of the things that you're saying and the way that you say them. Otherwise they wouldn't reach out for that call. It's almost like a sifting and sorting mechanism into if this resonates and then they make that connection with you. The connection that you have is stronger than if they just walked through the door and hadn't had any of that context in the first place. \n\nScott: Right, you know, Zach, what percentage of clients would you say are opting to do the house hack? Because it's not the only thing we do, it's just one of the many strategies and, as we sit down, you could do this, you could do that, and it's definitely not right for everyone, but what percentage of clients would you say are opting to do? \n\nZach: this Right 25 to 30% right now is what we're seeing. \n\nScott: So that's a sizable portion of the market here in Utah, as people are trying to find affordable housing. And, like Zach referred to before, one of the things that we have to understand is well, you could have a single-family residence for a condo-sized payment. Right, let's show you how that works. Or, like Zach mentioned before, you could move into the neighborhood that you eventually want to be in that is your dream neighborhood Maybe 10 years earlier than you could normally get in. By doing the house hack that's going to allow you to get into that neighborhood, get established, rent the basement. As your family grows, your income's also increasing. Now you can take over the basement too and get rid of the renters. So, like we said, it just doesn't work for everybody, but for those that it does, it's the difference between getting a house right now and not getting a house, so it's a really big deal. \n\nStuart: Right and, as you say, 25, 30 percent of the market is a significant business in its own right and I like the idea of a kind of a campaign approach to everything that you do. This book is the top of a funnel, a campaign funnel that is addressing that market. But for the people who it's not a good fit for whether they self-select that it's not a good fit, having just read the book or as a result of a meeting they're now in your world and you can present them with other, more traditional offers or offers that are a better fit. So again, this breaking away from the traditional book sense to a conversation, starting book sense if you think about it in terms of a campaign that then leads to the broader offering and more tailored offering. It's not that the book is trying to convert people or convince them that this is the right thing for them to do, and then they go away and do it themselves. It's the first step into a conversation where the answer might be a house hack solution or it might be something else, but now they know you, now that they're in your world, you've got a chance to have that conversation and again, from a referral perspective, it's very easy for other people in your world to make that connection between the thing that you're offering in the book and that conversation and someone who they know. So it just really streamlines, rather than the traditional. We love working with clients like you and referrals at the heart of our business. Please go and tell them with your friends. I mean, there's a place for that. But it's definitely nicer to orchestrate it in a way that adds value all the way down there, all the way down the track, this idea of the content of the book. \n\nI'm always interested to hear people's view on how they decide what to include and what not to include. So obviously the process that we've got walks people through the outlining step. That's a major part of the program. But this idea of a traditional book often includes a lot of stuff because the book is the product and people are trying to hit a certain page count. So it's kind of like a quantitative measure rather than a qualitative measure. And then marry that with the thought of OK, this is a conversation starting book, but then the conversation carries on elsewhere. So what was the balance between the right level of content to include, because you guys have been in business for years and you could write three books worth of content on it. So how did that go in terms of choosing what was included and what is best fit later on? \n\nZach: We wanted the book to take about an hour to read is what we were kind of shooting for us. Scott and I thought about it. We said, well, we could probably make, like you said, a three, four hundred page book. But when you get a book that big from somebody, you're typically going to say, well, this is good, go put it on the bookshelf. \n\nStuart: It's a job for Futurezac Cohen's act. Doesn't have time. Futurezac will read it. \n\nZach: Yeah, Futurezac will read it. So as we looked at that, we said we've got to pair it down to where it has enough of the content to drive the conversation further and everything like that. But we just did it. I don't know. We probably pulled several elements out of it that just kept the book more condensed and more punchy. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think as well the opportunity there and we talked to people a lot about this because oftentimes people will come with other material that they've got already either stuff in the website or presentations or PowerPoint type things that they've created and they'll often want to more is better and kind of throw everything in there. But the reality of the situation is having this first element that's easy to consume, gets people feeling good about completing it in a way that has moved their thinking on or given them some tangible steps to feel like they're progressing. But then, once you've captured people's details, once you've started that conversation, to be able to follow up with people over the long run and use some of those additional pieces to reinforce the book itself so much more powerful than just trying to throw all into this one asset, kind of between the front and back cover of a book. Because the reality is that most people, even if they fully intend to work with you and want to reach out, the likelihood of the timing being perfectly aligned so that they have the time to reach out, that they can schedule something that the stars align and that happens is slim, but it's much more likely over the long run. So if you can use some of those assets, some of those elements and those amplifying points of the conversation further down the track. \n\nI think that's much more value than just trying to put it in the pages for the sake of some arbitrary page count. Another thing that I like as well is that idea of making it consumable within an hour, because I've got a shelf full of books that I would absolutely love to have read and consumed and understood. But the reality is readership rates are relatively low because people have other things coming up. So that bite size deliverable for people, I think it really kind of respects the time that they've got and also makes it more likely that they'll feel successful in achieving something because it is manageable. The feedback that you guys get I know we're early in the project, but the feedback that you guys get on this bite size approach, because there's so many, it's a broad set of information that people need to know in the round completely, but this bite size sharing of information, do you get feedback from people where that's easier for them to consume and move one step forward. \n\nScott: Yes, yes, just like Zach said, people do not want a 300 page book. I don't want a 300 page book, and in fact, you remember, we've published a couple of other books with your company too, and for anyone who's thinking about that experience, I will say it's fantastic. Your support staff are there, just right there. The editing process is amazing. The book cover process is amazing. It's a great experience. \n\nSo, for anyone who's wondering, we have had a great experience here with Stuart and his team. You know, remember, we started with this book here the 12 Secrets to Improve your Credit Score in 37 Days or Less and then we actually took that book which wasn't a huge book it was only what? 72 pages, Zach and then we condensed that into an even smaller book with smaller bite size pieces that people could consume, and that's the one we end up handing out the most. It's interesting because both books have same content, but one is really focused just for people who say what's the bottom line? Just tell me what to do to get my credit score better. Versus the larger book that's more geared for an engineer or an accountant, someone who wants to understand the details and the mechanics behind it. \n\nAnd so we provided both of those. It's kind of funny you mentioned this because in this book, right here, the All-Know Home Cheaper Than Rent. Chapter 9 talks about how to avoid paying tax on your real estate and we really struggled with do we give more, do we give less? So, oddly enough, because there's so much content there that somebody could want we actually took the first few pages and we said here is the simplified overview and if all you want to know is the basics, read these three pages and then skip the rest of this chapter. We actually say that in the book, but if you want to really understand the nuts and bolts behind depreciation and recapture and the tax benefits of owning real estate, then go ahead and read all 20 pages of this chapter and we know some people will just skip the chapter. \n\nThey'll read the summary, skip the rest of it, and that's totally fine. \n\nStuart: So we've tried to accommodate that and that psychology of thinking about the I need a more pithy way of describing this but thinking about the psychology of the job of work, of the book and the whole kind of book label and author label and bestsellers and all of this traditional book thinking, which has the benefit of sharing the authority, and there's a. There's a stronger light that comes from creating a book than creating the same number of words as blog posts on a web page. You can have 10,000 words on the website, 10,000 words printed between some mashed up trees, and this one has more credibility and light and reciprocity and it feels like you're giving something than the online equivalent. Even when we talk about the online version of the books, the digital version of the books, we intentionally lay them out in exactly the same way, so they've got left and right layouts and there's blank pages where there would be blank pages in the physical version for the purpose of keeping that psychology going. But when you think about the actual job of work, we're not making money from book sales. \n\nOur business is to help clients get new mortgages to finance their dream of home ownership, and the thing to move those people forward, quite for many people, is going to be those bite-sized chunks, because it makes them feel like they're going in the right direction. It gives them something that they don't feel overwhelmed by in terms of how to understand all of this piece. It makes them feel successful and that the outcome is achievable. And then, with those good feelings, with Zach and Scott being the people who provided that, and here's a very easy next step. That path is just so streamlined. I really love the. I'd forgotten the earlier books, actually the fact that the second one was the condensed version. We should run a separate podcast with you guys. And there's another author we've worked with called Bill Bloom, whose second book was down at 32 pages, I think. So we've got a couple of people who have really kind of dialed into this idea of less is more and the campaign type approach, and sometimes this is the best tool, but sometimes this is the best tool. \n\nSo I think for people listening, there's often a overwhelming feeling of this is a big project and there's a lot to do and it's. I need to lock myself away in a cabin in the woods with a candle and a quill and get it all written down. But taking 80% of the of the psychology of that into something that's 20%. The size is but 100% more effective it's. Again. \n\nI'm doing the same problem that you described before with this. So much if I could just take the chip out of here and put it in people's heads and have them instantly appreciate the full opportunity. It's different not to just talk for two hours about it. Okay, sorry, off on a tangent there the feedback on some of the earlier books, or not necessarily the feedback, but the use cases. So when you think about having several titles now, several assets that you can share out in different ways, have there been any campaigns or any ways that you've used it which have either been a surprise or unexpected, or you've got feedback in a way that you didn't necessarily think would happen at the beginning? \n\nScott: Well, the first one that comes to mind yesterday we ran into a real estate agent that we just happened to see a few months ago. We gave him two copies of each book and said hey, read this and you might want to share it with some clients. And it was so funny to talk to him yesterday. He must have thanked us up and down for 10 minutes. I love the books, they're so useful. My clients check them out and then they have to return them and you know what? We can get you a few more books. You don't have clients check them out and turn them back in, you can just send it to them and then they could pass it on to somebody else. But he was so appreciative of the progress that his clients are making with their scores as they're getting ready to purchase home and there's probably not a week that goes by that Zach and I don't get a call from somebody that says thank you so much for that book. It's helping me. My scores are much higher than they were and this much closer now to my dream of owning a home. So it's very effective. \n\nAnd we got these out, like we're constantly. Every time we meet with somebody, we do the pre-qualification, we go through their scenario, we see what their scores are, and you got to realize now it takes a 780 credit score on a conventional loan to get the best interest rate Used to be 740. Now it's 780. And so we're just going to people that we're talking to running numbers. Okay, you know what. You're a 760. We can save you a little more money. Here's the tool Do exactly what we say, we'll get you up to a 780. And we're going to save you some money with this as we get you ready to buy your house. So we do hand these out Like candy, why not? \n\nStuart: Exactly, why not? \n\nI mean, everyone thinks that everyone else's industry is easy and if only I worked in that business it would be so much more straightforward. \n\nBut this idea of a almost like a magic trick, something that you can start the conversation in a very simple way for people to get started down the track the credit options and understand the credit score and making these small changes and how it can make a meaningful difference over the life of a 30 year mortgage, I think for every business there's a small piece that you can give someone to start their journey which you might think is kind of it's easy to overlook in your own business because it's the one on one level, it's the basic level and usually, as business owners, we're operating on the more complicated or random or extreme versions. \n\nIt's easy to overlook those initial steps. But the value that you're sharing with both the end consumer, the people who are doing taking those steps to make a difference, plus for those complementary, non-competing businesses like the real estateers, who really can use it in their world to make their clients' worlds, their clients' outcomes better, I mean that is the magic of creating something like this because, as we just said, there's all of the benefit and authority and gift giving and value proposition, because something's glued together on paper and then it easily makes a meaningful difference. \n\nScott: And to your point, stuart. We have a handful of real estate agents who are just waiting for this book to hit the streets and they're going to be buying hundreds of copies to push out to their client database because they want their clients to understand the strategy and they know that it's going to help a handful of their own clients and their own database. \n\nStuart: You could imagine a scenario, and I mean you need to balance their effort with the reward. But just listening to you talk there I mean on the book's release. So I did an AMA yesterday with some of our clients and we were talking about this idea of a release which, in a kind of self-publishing conversation, starting book world. It isn't really, it's not the same as a traditional book release, but still there's a date in the calendar which this thing becomes real. So reaching out to those realtors and working with them and doing a Zoom recording with them, giving them a behind-the-scenes a little more in-depth, and then giving them a pre-written letter that they can tailor for themselves a little bit, to hand out with the book to the clients and say I've worked with Scott and Zach for years and I managed to get a little bit of time with them and we recorded a behind-the-scenes. So not only is it in the book, but there's this kind of secret conversation. I keep doing air quotes, the secret conversation that we had as well. And here's the next step. I mean that in terms of increasing the success of the funnel and smoothing the path and building up the realtors, because you know that some business is going to pass through from them. There's so many opportunities to kind of amplify that complimentary, non-competing world just from talking more about the things that you're talking about already. It's kind of packaging it in a way that seems to just add more and more perceived value, which is kind of exponentially greater than the actual value that it's providing, which, in its own right, is fantastic. \n\nI just glanced at the clock. I know that we've got a hard out soon. I'm super grateful for both of your time. I want to wrap up quickly, then, talking about what the next steps are and how you're planning to kind of leverage the suite of books almost. Is there a way of? Is the planning of the next couple of months, to use these just as conversations come up, or, now that there's a library of assets, do they exist on the website in ways that people can download them and kind of self-select into a path, trying to share ideas with other people who might be listening and thinking about, okay, if I create a book, how I can then use it, and you guys are obviously an expert at that. So, yeah, is it more physical and giving it to people, or is it more online and allowing people to download and join the, join your world that way. \n\nScott: Yeah, it's been a combination of both this new book we're still in the process of building that funnel, but if you were to, if you were to go to 12creditesecretscom or stoppayingextracom, then you would end up in a funnel for one of those books where you get a copy of the, a PDF copy of the book, and then you would actually get on a series that lasts about 26 days where Zach and I shot little three to five minute videos talking about every single strategy and secret and why it works and how it fits with your credit program, and so that's in place. \n\nAnd then, of course, we'll be doing a similar process with this new book so people can get PDF copies of the book. We'll probably attach those to our website too, but then just handing them out, like we're doing for people that we know need a higher level understanding of the concept, and then getting it into the hands of other people who know, people like the real estate agents we work with, to get it in the hands of a lot of clients that way. You know, it's also something we've toyed with doing on maybe some Facebook advertising or something, because there's so many people. How do we get a greater reach to people we don't even know that, need to know this, and so we're trying to figure out what's the best strategy for that long term, and I'm sure we'll play with some different things. But yeah, we were handing out the books and also doing PDFs both. \n\nStuart: It's such a great opportunity because the things that are currently working, the fact that the book exists in physical and digital form, it's an asset now that you can use in multiple different channels as the opportunity presents itself. So things that you're not doing as the conversations come up, it's there and waiting and ready to go. It's not that you could see the opportunity and then have to create the asset. This is something that's evergreen and is useful in so many different circumstances. Zach, if you one of the questions that came up in a podcast I did a couple of weeks ago, have you ever had someone yet stop you and say, oh, you're the person who wrote the book, probably not walking down the street or an airport, but as clients come in? Has there ever has there yet been a kind of double take moment when they make the connection between the person on the cover and the person that they're talking to? \n\nZach: Yeah, definitely with the credit book. We've had that happen and it just it gives us a lot of trust in that conversation going forward when we do say, oh, yeah, let's go in depth on your specific scenario for that and so it's been really good. I'm excited to see that just continue into this specific book. You know, hopefully we do have that in a year where, hey, guess what, stuart, somebody stopped us on the street and said, hey, thanks for writing that book. \n\nStuart: He stopped having a shelf around for autographs Exactly. \n\nScott: You know, Stuart, I want to. I just want to speak for just a second to the aspiring authors out there who are thinking man, I want to do this. I just don't know how hard it's going to be. You know, it wasn't like super easy. We didn't do it overnight, right, it took some time and it just started with Zach writing out. You sat down for how many hours, would you say, Zach, it took you to write out that initial draft of here's my thoughts, here's my experience. These are some things I think people need to know and understand. \n\nZach: Probably four or five hours. \n\nScott: Okay. So you know it took him some time. Now I realize you have even a different model with the 90 minute approach and how you do that, but in this case we wanted to do it this way, so he took a few hours, and then every once in a while we'd get together and say, hey, you know what, let's work on this chapter a little bit, let's refine this. What charts or graphs might be useful or helpful? What's something that someone needs to know that we haven't even thought about yet and we just kind of let it simmer for a while. As we said, what to take out, what to add in, what needs enhancement. But really it is very doable. It's something that anybody could do. \n\nEverybody's an expert at something, and we really are experts at this. I don't know that there's anybody in our marketplace that knows this better than we do. I bet money on it. We really are the experts in Utah on house hacking, and the same goes for you know credit scoring and how to improve your credit scores. We've been teaching these classes for 25 to 30 years and most loan officers don't have a clue about this stuff. But we really are experts. So it's comfortable for us to talk about these things because we understand them so well and at a depth that most people don't. But there's something that other people out there who are listening to this we're not the expert on other things right, and they are, and so it's just not that hard. You're an expert of something and you can do this. Just start by writing it out, put it on paper, get started somewhere, give a little time to it and next thing you know, you've got yourself a really powerful tool that helps set you apart from your competition. \n\nStuart: Yeah, such fantastic advice, that kind of bite-size approach to chunking it down and not thinking about the whole thing at once, but instead piece by piece and strategically thinking about the outline and then just filling in the details on the back of that. As you say, that's the process that we've got in a slightly different format. For clients who come through the normal route. That outline is the key and it makes it so much easier whether people work with us or do it by themselves. That really is the key that makes it, I think, from an aspiration project to something that's achievable. So I really hope that people take heed of what you said there and just kind of get started. You drop some mentioned some website links before, but I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and the team and what you're doing across there. What's the best place for people to go to check out the Asbell team and what you guys can offer? \n\nScott: Yeah, good question. So we have a website that's asbellteamcom and then our email is going to be team at asbellcom and then the phone number that's kind of our office number is 801-368-2900 and you can get ahold of any of us at that phone number. And if someone wanted to tap into, like you were saying, the previous books, just go to stoppayingextracom or 12creditssecretscom and you could choose one of those books and get a PDF copy of that and geta feel for what do those videos look like? What might you be able to create on your site or for your book? Get a feel for what that process looks like of educating people on the book once they opt into getting the book, say what we should. \n\nStuart: Have had a couple of conversations recently and try to encourage more and more people to do what you've done in terms of taking that seed information and then just amplifying it a little bit by providing more value down the track. So maybe as we get into 2024 next year, we can do a deeper dive on that process, because I think that is a game changer for people if they actually embraced it and started creating that content as well, which is straightforward once you've got the written word, you've got the material, it's just repositioning it. So, yeah, it'd be great to follow up on the show next year and do a little bit of a deeper dive there. But thanks so much for your time. \n\nGuys, it always goes fast and today's no exception. We'll make sure that the links to the sites and the team site you mentioned there is in the show notes, so anyone listening on a podcast player or on the website can get a direct link through. Again, just thanks for your time. I want to wish you a happy new year and everyone listening happy new year. 2024 is going to be exciting and can't wait to check back in and see what you guys are up to. All right, thanks, stuart, thanks. \n\nScott: Thank you guys. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we’re talking about the father-son mortgage team of Scott and Zach Asbell.
\n\nWith decades of combined experience, they share some great stories about building their family business, navigating fluctuating housing markets, and the importance of trust in client relationships.
\n\nThis is where their books shine, as they give the opportunity to start the conversation by helping people first.
\n\nTheir latest book, ‘Own a Home Cheaper Than Rent’, born from Zach’s personal experience, does just that by providing real insights into the possibility of owning a home for a generation who believe it’s out of reach.
\n\nScott and Zach share some great insights into tailoring content to attract and maintain long-term interest, and we also touch on the transformational impact of having written a book as Zach reflects on the recognition of his work.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/157
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nScott: Well, we are a father-son team. We've been in the mortgage business it's almost like a family business for over 30 years now and it's just been fantastic. Zach and I run a branch here in Utah and our company services clients in 42 different states and we're just all about helping people and doing the right thing. We know that if we do the right thing over time, the business will come.
\n\nStuart: Zach, were you in the business straight out of school or did you kind of go another path and then come back to working together?
\n\nZach:: Yeah, right after I graduated with a business management degree. I ended up going a different path for about six to eight months and then Scott and I got to talk and we're like, hey, actually this might be a good fit, and so the more we dove into it. I started doing certain marketing elements for Scott and then, as we go further in, it's like, well, I better get licensed because it's just the path that at least you kind of a thing.
\n\nStuart: It's such a nice. We've had a couple of family run businesses on the show before and then clients who we've worked with have been in a similar situation either husband and wife or parent and child and I always have a little bit of envy or jealousy because I'm obviously in the US now family's back in the UK, although my brother's over here and we get to work together, which is fantastic. But the occasions where I've had a chance to work closer with parents not in a business sense but on projects or family projects or something around the houses that opportunity just to spend that much, I don't even know if I'd describe it as quality time, but almost the incidental time. We're not just having that relationship in the peak moments, but just day to day through life. So always it's a great pleasure and privilege to talk to people like you who are in that situation, who get to share that time. And I think that comes through in the book as well as the stories brought together and seeing you guys go through the process, knowing how closely you're aligned. It's really interesting to see that come together and then present itself in the pages.
\n\nSo, with that being said, I'm going to jump in ahead a little bit. Let's quickly cover who your clients are. So, as people are listening to this, we've obviously got many different business owners who are thinking about writing a book for their business or who have done and are thinking about ways of using it. Describe quickly you mentioned that you're in Utah but work across 42 states. How is that in term of remotely kind of connecting with those people, both at the top of the front of the first base and then as you work with them?
\n\nScott: Yeah, that's a good question. So majority of our referrals as you mentioned already, stuart are referrals that come from clients, because we have a 3,000 client database that we've accumulated over 30 years and then a few real estate agents that we like that do business the way we do, that send us business. So it's very little advertising and that's great because those people come to us with a high level of trust. Already, the clients that we're specifically looking for would be people who want to purchase a one-to-four family property, either as an investment property or to live in on their own. And what's really happened and the reason this book came to light purchasing a home has gotten trickier over the last few years. Prices have gone up, rates have gone up. How can you still justify purchasing a home and make it work with the family's budget?
\n\nAnd we were sitting there thinking, gee, you know what everyone needs to do, what Zach's doing.
\n\nThis is like Zach:'s story, like.
\n\nThis is a real life story of how he bought his first house, what he did, how he turned it into a rental, how he went and bought his next house, how that worked, what the numbers look like, what was his real payment for two homes rented the old house rented the basement on the new one.
\n\nThen, when he went to buy the third house, it really became his story and has become such a popular strategy I'm going to say nationwide to the point where even a lot of, let's say, the state of Utah just in recent times has come out and said hey, we're going to open the gate a little wider and we're going to encourage and allow people to have ADUs accessory dwelling units, in their basement, because we have a serious housing issue and we have to find a way to create more housing for more families. So, as this is happening from a political side, we're also having the tried and tested strategy of how to make this work so you can buy a home with an ADU and literally have a house payment that's cheaper than you would if you were to rent. So that's kind of the big picture of what that looks like.
\n\nStuart: It's such an interesting challenge, I think, the jewel kind of the conflicting or most jewel elements of costs, increasing affordability, getting more difficult wages, not necessarily keeping up well, not at all keeping up with that inflation, and then add interest rate changes on top of it. So looking for what some people might be very creative ways of achieving it. But, Zach, I guess this was your experience as well. Once you've been through it, once it's not as difficult as it might seem that there's a certain amount of unknown unknowns. But once those become known unknowns or unknown, known to whichever way around it is, then it becomes a little bit more straightforward. So your experience, was it intentionally moving down that path from the first property to the third property and beyond relatively quickly, or was it kind of like organic development? And now, as you look back, it's a very kind of um with the plan that someone else can follow it?
\n\nZach:: was very intentional. Like when I look back at the first property, we knew going into that property, man, we're probably going to be here 12 to 12. 24 months Granted, with COVID happening that bumped it up to 12 months and we said, hey, you know, let's move to the next house. But I mean, as we look at it too, like the fun part about it is just seeing the compounding effect of getting that first home and moving to the second one we still have the same principal pay down and everything like that. But then to see the rents evolve over the last four or five years and just all those little things that add up to where now, looking back five years, saying, wow, that was a good time to buy that specific property. And you know, had we had the opportunity to go back, we might have even strategized a little bit differently.
\n\nThe thing I like about this book is if I had this book back when I was buying my first property, it would have probably saved me a year or two on certain elements of it. As far as just the learning curve, like you're talking about, stuart, like when you go to rent that first time, you kind of know the gist of it, what you're looking for, but it's not really outlined. And that's the beauty of this book is it just takes all of the detail and combines it into 105 pages and says, hey, here's your you know quick guide of just how would we do it if we were to do it again. Right, and so that's the beauty of it.
\n\nStuart: I think that's the element as well. I've got the cover here that just get it up on screen for people watching along. I love the. I love all our covers and the work that they're doing to obviously invested interest in loving them. But the thing I really like about this is it's so straightforward and clear and gives people an idea of what the content is, even just from seeing it as it passes by and, I guess, from a referral strategy or backing up the referral strategy those people who you work with, who know trust, you're ready, who know the type of work that you can do.
\n\nThis is a very easy way of bridging that conversation into a non, non aggressive or non threatening. But it's an easy way for people to say oh, this is the book that Zach and Scott is talking about. I actually know someone who this is a perfect fit for the exact same situation that I was in. We were talking just before we started recording and mentioned that our oldest is 25 and is in a situation where buying isn't really a conversation that they're thinking about very much because they just see it as unachievable. But something like this is very easy for me to take this and pass it to them and it introduces the concepts and maybe starts the conversation in a slightly different way and then leads to obviously, the next step is speaking with you guys. So that referral strategy, writing it as something that other people, an easy way for other people to give and share what you do Was that the thought process from the start or was it more? Let's write it because this is a fantastic idea and worthwhile and then see how we can use it afterwards.
\n\nZach: I'd say that, scott and I, when we go into consultation, there are certain elements of this book that will include, but it'd be hard for us to have a consultation unless it was going to be a two to three hour consultation that encapsulates all of the information. And so that's one of the beautiful things about the book is we're catching the prospect up to speed so that by the time we get into that consultation, it's a much different conversation versus hey, let's catch you up on this two to three hour lesson about why does house hacking make sense right now? What are the benefits of it from a tax perspective, all the way to getting into that next home a lot sooner, that specific neighborhood that you want to. And so that's the biggest thing that I love about the book is now, when we're going to be going into those consultations. The buyer's already caught up to speed and we're now having a very more tactical conversation to say, okay, we're at X, how do we get to Y?
\n\nStuart: Right, such a great point, scott. Your experience having been in the business for longer, that's getting people up to speed. How much of a challenge was that in the early days? Did you find a lot of the conversations before things like this were available?
\n\nScott: Were doing that again everyone on the same page to then have a conversation from yes, definitely, because we are so focused on education that I wonder if sometimes in the past we actually overdone it, as a client sitting in the office and we're an hour and a half into education and they start to doze off. We've overdone it. But I realize that's an exaggeration, but really, yeah, there's so many pieces of the foundation that we want our clients to understand and have in place so they can make really smart financial decisions, of which purchasing a home is one of those major decisions that we do. We spend a lot of time educating.
\n\nSo is right on the money, that more education we can do before they come to sit with us, and the more people were able to help, the better prepared they are to come in with the right questions that they've sat on and thought about for a few days or weeks prior to our meeting. But you know, if somebody wants to come in and start from scratch, we'll do it and we probably break it into a couple of different consultations, because just this piece right here that's talking about Teaching someone about what are the pros and cons of a house hack Does it even work for you and your family? That could easily be a 45 minute conversation and we haven't even been able to run numbers yet or say well, how much house could you qualify for or what would this look like if you were to do it? So yeah, the more we can bring people up to speed so that they show up at the conversation with really good questions, thinking how's that going to apply to me and does it really work? That's where we want them to be.
\n\nStuart: It's such an interesting point and I have the same challenge. I think all of us business owners have the same problem. I mean, the majority of us are doing what we do because we love what we do. We've got a passion for the industry, for the business. So wanting just to be able to take out that chip from your brain and put it in someone else's head so that they've got the same vision or the same understanding of what their outcome could really be is very difficult not to just want to enthusiastically share all of that with them.
\n\nI was recording with Bob Mangold just yesterday as we record this, it'll be the show that goes live, the one in the sequence before this one and we were talking about the principle of a conversation starting book rather than a traditional book, and one of the elements is the outcome is you want to be in conversation with someone, either on Zoom or in person, bridging that gap between where they're coming from and hearing the words that are coming out of your mouth.
\n\nOnce they get that one-on-one conversation, the fact that the conversation starting book is written in such a way that does communicate your methodology, your words, your approach, the language that you use, the way that you describe something. It just moves the real-life conversation, the one-on-one conversation, on so much faster because they've already got an appreciation of the things that you're saying and the way that you say them. Otherwise they wouldn't reach out for that call. It's almost like a sifting and sorting mechanism into if this resonates and then they make that connection with you. The connection that you have is stronger than if they just walked through the door and hadn't had any of that context in the first place.
\n\nScott: Right, you know, Zach, what percentage of clients would you say are opting to do the house hack? Because it's not the only thing we do, it's just one of the many strategies and, as we sit down, you could do this, you could do that, and it's definitely not right for everyone, but what percentage of clients would you say are opting to do?
\n\nZach: this Right 25 to 30% right now is what we're seeing.
\n\nScott: So that's a sizable portion of the market here in Utah, as people are trying to find affordable housing. And, like Zach referred to before, one of the things that we have to understand is well, you could have a single-family residence for a condo-sized payment. Right, let's show you how that works. Or, like Zach mentioned before, you could move into the neighborhood that you eventually want to be in that is your dream neighborhood Maybe 10 years earlier than you could normally get in. By doing the house hack that's going to allow you to get into that neighborhood, get established, rent the basement. As your family grows, your income's also increasing. Now you can take over the basement too and get rid of the renters. So, like we said, it just doesn't work for everybody, but for those that it does, it's the difference between getting a house right now and not getting a house, so it's a really big deal.
\n\nStuart: Right and, as you say, 25, 30 percent of the market is a significant business in its own right and I like the idea of a kind of a campaign approach to everything that you do. This book is the top of a funnel, a campaign funnel that is addressing that market. But for the people who it's not a good fit for whether they self-select that it's not a good fit, having just read the book or as a result of a meeting they're now in your world and you can present them with other, more traditional offers or offers that are a better fit. So again, this breaking away from the traditional book sense to a conversation, starting book sense if you think about it in terms of a campaign that then leads to the broader offering and more tailored offering. It's not that the book is trying to convert people or convince them that this is the right thing for them to do, and then they go away and do it themselves. It's the first step into a conversation where the answer might be a house hack solution or it might be something else, but now they know you, now that they're in your world, you've got a chance to have that conversation and again, from a referral perspective, it's very easy for other people in your world to make that connection between the thing that you're offering in the book and that conversation and someone who they know. So it just really streamlines, rather than the traditional. We love working with clients like you and referrals at the heart of our business. Please go and tell them with your friends. I mean, there's a place for that. But it's definitely nicer to orchestrate it in a way that adds value all the way down there, all the way down the track, this idea of the content of the book.
\n\nI'm always interested to hear people's view on how they decide what to include and what not to include. So obviously the process that we've got walks people through the outlining step. That's a major part of the program. But this idea of a traditional book often includes a lot of stuff because the book is the product and people are trying to hit a certain page count. So it's kind of like a quantitative measure rather than a qualitative measure. And then marry that with the thought of OK, this is a conversation starting book, but then the conversation carries on elsewhere. So what was the balance between the right level of content to include, because you guys have been in business for years and you could write three books worth of content on it. So how did that go in terms of choosing what was included and what is best fit later on?
\n\nZach: We wanted the book to take about an hour to read is what we were kind of shooting for us. Scott and I thought about it. We said, well, we could probably make, like you said, a three, four hundred page book. But when you get a book that big from somebody, you're typically going to say, well, this is good, go put it on the bookshelf.
\n\nStuart: It's a job for Futurezac Cohen's act. Doesn't have time. Futurezac will read it.
\n\nZach: Yeah, Futurezac will read it. So as we looked at that, we said we've got to pair it down to where it has enough of the content to drive the conversation further and everything like that. But we just did it. I don't know. We probably pulled several elements out of it that just kept the book more condensed and more punchy.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think as well the opportunity there and we talked to people a lot about this because oftentimes people will come with other material that they've got already either stuff in the website or presentations or PowerPoint type things that they've created and they'll often want to more is better and kind of throw everything in there. But the reality of the situation is having this first element that's easy to consume, gets people feeling good about completing it in a way that has moved their thinking on or given them some tangible steps to feel like they're progressing. But then, once you've captured people's details, once you've started that conversation, to be able to follow up with people over the long run and use some of those additional pieces to reinforce the book itself so much more powerful than just trying to throw all into this one asset, kind of between the front and back cover of a book. Because the reality is that most people, even if they fully intend to work with you and want to reach out, the likelihood of the timing being perfectly aligned so that they have the time to reach out, that they can schedule something that the stars align and that happens is slim, but it's much more likely over the long run. So if you can use some of those assets, some of those elements and those amplifying points of the conversation further down the track.
\n\nI think that's much more value than just trying to put it in the pages for the sake of some arbitrary page count. Another thing that I like as well is that idea of making it consumable within an hour, because I've got a shelf full of books that I would absolutely love to have read and consumed and understood. But the reality is readership rates are relatively low because people have other things coming up. So that bite size deliverable for people, I think it really kind of respects the time that they've got and also makes it more likely that they'll feel successful in achieving something because it is manageable. The feedback that you guys get I know we're early in the project, but the feedback that you guys get on this bite size approach, because there's so many, it's a broad set of information that people need to know in the round completely, but this bite size sharing of information, do you get feedback from people where that's easier for them to consume and move one step forward.
\n\nScott: Yes, yes, just like Zach said, people do not want a 300 page book. I don't want a 300 page book, and in fact, you remember, we've published a couple of other books with your company too, and for anyone who's thinking about that experience, I will say it's fantastic. Your support staff are there, just right there. The editing process is amazing. The book cover process is amazing. It's a great experience.
\n\nSo, for anyone who's wondering, we have had a great experience here with Stuart and his team. You know, remember, we started with this book here the 12 Secrets to Improve your Credit Score in 37 Days or Less and then we actually took that book which wasn't a huge book it was only what? 72 pages, Zach and then we condensed that into an even smaller book with smaller bite size pieces that people could consume, and that's the one we end up handing out the most. It's interesting because both books have same content, but one is really focused just for people who say what's the bottom line? Just tell me what to do to get my credit score better. Versus the larger book that's more geared for an engineer or an accountant, someone who wants to understand the details and the mechanics behind it.
\n\nAnd so we provided both of those. It's kind of funny you mentioned this because in this book, right here, the All-Know Home Cheaper Than Rent. Chapter 9 talks about how to avoid paying tax on your real estate and we really struggled with do we give more, do we give less? So, oddly enough, because there's so much content there that somebody could want we actually took the first few pages and we said here is the simplified overview and if all you want to know is the basics, read these three pages and then skip the rest of this chapter. We actually say that in the book, but if you want to really understand the nuts and bolts behind depreciation and recapture and the tax benefits of owning real estate, then go ahead and read all 20 pages of this chapter and we know some people will just skip the chapter.
\n\nThey'll read the summary, skip the rest of it, and that's totally fine.
\n\nStuart: So we've tried to accommodate that and that psychology of thinking about the I need a more pithy way of describing this but thinking about the psychology of the job of work, of the book and the whole kind of book label and author label and bestsellers and all of this traditional book thinking, which has the benefit of sharing the authority, and there's a. There's a stronger light that comes from creating a book than creating the same number of words as blog posts on a web page. You can have 10,000 words on the website, 10,000 words printed between some mashed up trees, and this one has more credibility and light and reciprocity and it feels like you're giving something than the online equivalent. Even when we talk about the online version of the books, the digital version of the books, we intentionally lay them out in exactly the same way, so they've got left and right layouts and there's blank pages where there would be blank pages in the physical version for the purpose of keeping that psychology going. But when you think about the actual job of work, we're not making money from book sales.
\n\nOur business is to help clients get new mortgages to finance their dream of home ownership, and the thing to move those people forward, quite for many people, is going to be those bite-sized chunks, because it makes them feel like they're going in the right direction. It gives them something that they don't feel overwhelmed by in terms of how to understand all of this piece. It makes them feel successful and that the outcome is achievable. And then, with those good feelings, with Zach and Scott being the people who provided that, and here's a very easy next step. That path is just so streamlined. I really love the. I'd forgotten the earlier books, actually the fact that the second one was the condensed version. We should run a separate podcast with you guys. And there's another author we've worked with called Bill Bloom, whose second book was down at 32 pages, I think. So we've got a couple of people who have really kind of dialed into this idea of less is more and the campaign type approach, and sometimes this is the best tool, but sometimes this is the best tool.
\n\nSo I think for people listening, there's often a overwhelming feeling of this is a big project and there's a lot to do and it's. I need to lock myself away in a cabin in the woods with a candle and a quill and get it all written down. But taking 80% of the of the psychology of that into something that's 20%. The size is but 100% more effective it's. Again.
\n\nI'm doing the same problem that you described before with this. So much if I could just take the chip out of here and put it in people's heads and have them instantly appreciate the full opportunity. It's different not to just talk for two hours about it. Okay, sorry, off on a tangent there the feedback on some of the earlier books, or not necessarily the feedback, but the use cases. So when you think about having several titles now, several assets that you can share out in different ways, have there been any campaigns or any ways that you've used it which have either been a surprise or unexpected, or you've got feedback in a way that you didn't necessarily think would happen at the beginning?
\n\nScott: Well, the first one that comes to mind yesterday we ran into a real estate agent that we just happened to see a few months ago. We gave him two copies of each book and said hey, read this and you might want to share it with some clients. And it was so funny to talk to him yesterday. He must have thanked us up and down for 10 minutes. I love the books, they're so useful. My clients check them out and then they have to return them and you know what? We can get you a few more books. You don't have clients check them out and turn them back in, you can just send it to them and then they could pass it on to somebody else. But he was so appreciative of the progress that his clients are making with their scores as they're getting ready to purchase home and there's probably not a week that goes by that Zach and I don't get a call from somebody that says thank you so much for that book. It's helping me. My scores are much higher than they were and this much closer now to my dream of owning a home. So it's very effective.
\n\nAnd we got these out, like we're constantly. Every time we meet with somebody, we do the pre-qualification, we go through their scenario, we see what their scores are, and you got to realize now it takes a 780 credit score on a conventional loan to get the best interest rate Used to be 740. Now it's 780. And so we're just going to people that we're talking to running numbers. Okay, you know what. You're a 760. We can save you a little more money. Here's the tool Do exactly what we say, we'll get you up to a 780. And we're going to save you some money with this as we get you ready to buy your house. So we do hand these out Like candy, why not?
\n\nStuart: Exactly, why not?
\n\nI mean, everyone thinks that everyone else's industry is easy and if only I worked in that business it would be so much more straightforward.
\n\nBut this idea of a almost like a magic trick, something that you can start the conversation in a very simple way for people to get started down the track the credit options and understand the credit score and making these small changes and how it can make a meaningful difference over the life of a 30 year mortgage, I think for every business there's a small piece that you can give someone to start their journey which you might think is kind of it's easy to overlook in your own business because it's the one on one level, it's the basic level and usually, as business owners, we're operating on the more complicated or random or extreme versions.
\n\nIt's easy to overlook those initial steps. But the value that you're sharing with both the end consumer, the people who are doing taking those steps to make a difference, plus for those complementary, non-competing businesses like the real estateers, who really can use it in their world to make their clients' worlds, their clients' outcomes better, I mean that is the magic of creating something like this because, as we just said, there's all of the benefit and authority and gift giving and value proposition, because something's glued together on paper and then it easily makes a meaningful difference.
\n\nScott: And to your point, stuart. We have a handful of real estate agents who are just waiting for this book to hit the streets and they're going to be buying hundreds of copies to push out to their client database because they want their clients to understand the strategy and they know that it's going to help a handful of their own clients and their own database.
\n\nStuart: You could imagine a scenario, and I mean you need to balance their effort with the reward. But just listening to you talk there I mean on the book's release. So I did an AMA yesterday with some of our clients and we were talking about this idea of a release which, in a kind of self-publishing conversation, starting book world. It isn't really, it's not the same as a traditional book release, but still there's a date in the calendar which this thing becomes real. So reaching out to those realtors and working with them and doing a Zoom recording with them, giving them a behind-the-scenes a little more in-depth, and then giving them a pre-written letter that they can tailor for themselves a little bit, to hand out with the book to the clients and say I've worked with Scott and Zach for years and I managed to get a little bit of time with them and we recorded a behind-the-scenes. So not only is it in the book, but there's this kind of secret conversation. I keep doing air quotes, the secret conversation that we had as well. And here's the next step. I mean that in terms of increasing the success of the funnel and smoothing the path and building up the realtors, because you know that some business is going to pass through from them. There's so many opportunities to kind of amplify that complimentary, non-competing world just from talking more about the things that you're talking about already. It's kind of packaging it in a way that seems to just add more and more perceived value, which is kind of exponentially greater than the actual value that it's providing, which, in its own right, is fantastic.
\n\nI just glanced at the clock. I know that we've got a hard out soon. I'm super grateful for both of your time. I want to wrap up quickly, then, talking about what the next steps are and how you're planning to kind of leverage the suite of books almost. Is there a way of? Is the planning of the next couple of months, to use these just as conversations come up, or, now that there's a library of assets, do they exist on the website in ways that people can download them and kind of self-select into a path, trying to share ideas with other people who might be listening and thinking about, okay, if I create a book, how I can then use it, and you guys are obviously an expert at that. So, yeah, is it more physical and giving it to people, or is it more online and allowing people to download and join the, join your world that way.
\n\nScott: Yeah, it's been a combination of both this new book we're still in the process of building that funnel, but if you were to, if you were to go to 12creditesecretscom or stoppayingextracom, then you would end up in a funnel for one of those books where you get a copy of the, a PDF copy of the book, and then you would actually get on a series that lasts about 26 days where Zach and I shot little three to five minute videos talking about every single strategy and secret and why it works and how it fits with your credit program, and so that's in place.
\n\nAnd then, of course, we'll be doing a similar process with this new book so people can get PDF copies of the book. We'll probably attach those to our website too, but then just handing them out, like we're doing for people that we know need a higher level understanding of the concept, and then getting it into the hands of other people who know, people like the real estate agents we work with, to get it in the hands of a lot of clients that way. You know, it's also something we've toyed with doing on maybe some Facebook advertising or something, because there's so many people. How do we get a greater reach to people we don't even know that, need to know this, and so we're trying to figure out what's the best strategy for that long term, and I'm sure we'll play with some different things. But yeah, we were handing out the books and also doing PDFs both.
\n\nStuart: It's such a great opportunity because the things that are currently working, the fact that the book exists in physical and digital form, it's an asset now that you can use in multiple different channels as the opportunity presents itself. So things that you're not doing as the conversations come up, it's there and waiting and ready to go. It's not that you could see the opportunity and then have to create the asset. This is something that's evergreen and is useful in so many different circumstances. Zach, if you one of the questions that came up in a podcast I did a couple of weeks ago, have you ever had someone yet stop you and say, oh, you're the person who wrote the book, probably not walking down the street or an airport, but as clients come in? Has there ever has there yet been a kind of double take moment when they make the connection between the person on the cover and the person that they're talking to?
\n\nZach: Yeah, definitely with the credit book. We've had that happen and it just it gives us a lot of trust in that conversation going forward when we do say, oh, yeah, let's go in depth on your specific scenario for that and so it's been really good. I'm excited to see that just continue into this specific book. You know, hopefully we do have that in a year where, hey, guess what, stuart, somebody stopped us on the street and said, hey, thanks for writing that book.
\n\nStuart: He stopped having a shelf around for autographs Exactly.
\n\nScott: You know, Stuart, I want to. I just want to speak for just a second to the aspiring authors out there who are thinking man, I want to do this. I just don't know how hard it's going to be. You know, it wasn't like super easy. We didn't do it overnight, right, it took some time and it just started with Zach writing out. You sat down for how many hours, would you say, Zach, it took you to write out that initial draft of here's my thoughts, here's my experience. These are some things I think people need to know and understand.
\n\nZach: Probably four or five hours.
\n\nScott: Okay. So you know it took him some time. Now I realize you have even a different model with the 90 minute approach and how you do that, but in this case we wanted to do it this way, so he took a few hours, and then every once in a while we'd get together and say, hey, you know what, let's work on this chapter a little bit, let's refine this. What charts or graphs might be useful or helpful? What's something that someone needs to know that we haven't even thought about yet and we just kind of let it simmer for a while. As we said, what to take out, what to add in, what needs enhancement. But really it is very doable. It's something that anybody could do.
\n\nEverybody's an expert at something, and we really are experts at this. I don't know that there's anybody in our marketplace that knows this better than we do. I bet money on it. We really are the experts in Utah on house hacking, and the same goes for you know credit scoring and how to improve your credit scores. We've been teaching these classes for 25 to 30 years and most loan officers don't have a clue about this stuff. But we really are experts. So it's comfortable for us to talk about these things because we understand them so well and at a depth that most people don't. But there's something that other people out there who are listening to this we're not the expert on other things right, and they are, and so it's just not that hard. You're an expert of something and you can do this. Just start by writing it out, put it on paper, get started somewhere, give a little time to it and next thing you know, you've got yourself a really powerful tool that helps set you apart from your competition.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, such fantastic advice, that kind of bite-size approach to chunking it down and not thinking about the whole thing at once, but instead piece by piece and strategically thinking about the outline and then just filling in the details on the back of that. As you say, that's the process that we've got in a slightly different format. For clients who come through the normal route. That outline is the key and it makes it so much easier whether people work with us or do it by themselves. That really is the key that makes it, I think, from an aspiration project to something that's achievable. So I really hope that people take heed of what you said there and just kind of get started. You drop some mentioned some website links before, but I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and the team and what you're doing across there. What's the best place for people to go to check out the Asbell team and what you guys can offer?
\n\nScott: Yeah, good question. So we have a website that's asbellteamcom and then our email is going to be team at asbellcom and then the phone number that's kind of our office number is 801-368-2900 and you can get ahold of any of us at that phone number. And if someone wanted to tap into, like you were saying, the previous books, just go to stoppayingextracom or 12creditssecretscom and you could choose one of those books and get a PDF copy of that and geta feel for what do those videos look like? What might you be able to create on your site or for your book? Get a feel for what that process looks like of educating people on the book once they opt into getting the book, say what we should.
\n\nStuart: Have had a couple of conversations recently and try to encourage more and more people to do what you've done in terms of taking that seed information and then just amplifying it a little bit by providing more value down the track. So maybe as we get into 2024 next year, we can do a deeper dive on that process, because I think that is a game changer for people if they actually embraced it and started creating that content as well, which is straightforward once you've got the written word, you've got the material, it's just repositioning it. So, yeah, it'd be great to follow up on the show next year and do a little bit of a deeper dive there. But thanks so much for your time.
\n\nGuys, it always goes fast and today's no exception. We'll make sure that the links to the sites and the team site you mentioned there is in the show notes, so anyone listening on a podcast player or on the website can get a direct link through. Again, just thanks for your time. I want to wish you a happy new year and everyone listening happy new year. 2024 is going to be exciting and can't wait to check back in and see what you guys are up to. All right, thanks, stuart, thanks.
\n\nScott: Thank you guys.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we’re talking about the father-son mortgage team of Scott and Zach Asbell. \r\n\r\nWith decades of combined experience, they share some great stories about building their family business, navigating fluctuating housing markets, and the importance of trust in client relationships. \r\n\r\nThis is where their books shine, as they give the opportunity to start the conversation by helping people first.\r\n\r\nTheir latest book, ‘Own a Home Cheaper Than Rent’, born from Zach’s personal experience, does just that by providing real insights into the possibility of owning a home for a generation who believe it’s out of reach.\r\n\r\nScott and Zach share some great insights into tailoring content to attract and maintain long-term interest, and we also touch on the transformational impact of having written a book as Zach reflects on the recognition of his work. ","date_published":"2024-01-07T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/5d9e889b-27e2-45c4-aa11-2ee4e190de16.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29648549,"duration_in_seconds":2416}]},{"id":"38880d31-aa96-4cd6-9adc-be178b6a1eb7","title":"EP156: If You List, You Last with Bob Mangold","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/156","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we caught up with Bob Mangold to talk about how his book 'If You List, You Last' is working to start conversations with realtors and mortgage brokers. \n\nBob's business is helping those in an industry swamped with 'training' opportunities by working with them to achieve tangible outcome. \n\nHis book is the perfect way to engage one of his key audiences, realtors, by identifying 4 simple steps they can take to improve their listing business.\n\nWe talk about how a book helps cut through the noise of other trainers to identify those people who resonate with his message and ultimatley become great clients.\n\nYour book becomes an asset you can use across many channels as the tool that amplifies work you're doing to reach new people.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n Stuart introduces Bob Mangold, an expert in the implementation of strategies within the real estate and mortgage sectors.\n Bob emphasizes the importance of execution, explaining that without it, even the best ideas in real estate remain unused.\n We address common issues such as the abandonment of strategies and the allure of new, untested ideas, advocating for perseverance and adaptability.\n The concept of role-playing is highlighted as a valuable training tool, preparing agents to make confident cash offers.\n We discuss the shift from personal branding to value-driven branding, focusing on the unique value agents can offer the market.\n Stuart and Bob delve into building a referral-rich business model that is cost-effective and enhances clients' financial outcomes.\n Challenges of working with senior clients are examined, underscoring the need to understand their unique needs and provide value through knowledge.\n The episode discusses the Home Boss system, an innovative approach to real estate transactions aimed at maximizing seller profits with transparency and efficiency.\n We explore the use of authorship, particularly writing a book, as a strategy to engage with clients and provide value through additional resources like classes and consultations.\n The importance of aligning the message of a book with one's brand to attract the right audience and initiate meaningful conversations is discussed.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nBob Mangold - LinkedIn\nIf You List, You Last\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/156\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: I want to welcome back to the book more show. It's Stuart Bell here and today. Great episode. We're joined by Bob Mangol. Bob, how you doing. \n\nBob: Thanks, how about you, stuart? \n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, thank you. I'm in the week leading up to Christmas, as we record, so I'm not quite sure whether it's busy or quiet, or it seems to be a little bit of a hectic rush towards the finish line at the end of the year. How is it for you? \n\nBob: Yeah, always. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nBob: Always. \n\nStuart: So, bob, would you describe yourself as a realtor coach? What would be the best way of describing it? \n\nBob: That would be okay, is a word. Really, what I do is to help real estate agents and mortgage brokers and mortgage loan officers implement. So there's lots of coaches that'll get on a call and you know, every week or every two weeks and say, hey, stuart, you should be doing this, this and this. Did you do that? No, oh well, the next two weeks you need to do that. \n\nAnd then that, to me, is by and large what you see in coaching and almost every industry, and it's not that it's a bad thing, it's just nobody actually helps on implementing right. So you can have coaching, you can have marketing. I look at it as what we do is we implement, and so I don't let people move. I take them down a path of basically 10 things that they need to do to implement in the business and we don't move to step two until we have step one done and we don't move to step three until we have step two done. Then we implement, because you could have the greatest ideas, you can have the greatest system strategies, but if they're not implemented and executed, it doesn't matter. \n\nStuart: Right, there's a podcast probably a lot of the audience are aware of you probably are as well the Isle of Markets in podcast and the idea around the getting the most value from the ideas. I would have a heated or enthusiastic debate with my business partner, dean, because it means very much, on the ideas. A good idea trumps everything else and I'm very much on the side of without any implementation. I could Google ideas and have 50 to implement, but without implementation nothing happens and of course the reality is both is true, but it's always interesting the spirit of debate, because I think there is a lot of heat and light and energy and other offerings around the idea side of things. But unless there's that implementation and I don't want to say necessarily the real estate is worse than anyone else, but it's definitely a challenge of business owners across the board having that implementation step. So your approach on the implementation side was that from a hard one experience or were you naturally on that side of the fence? \n\nBob: You know, listen, I am of the mind that I would agree with both of you, both Dean and you, have to have good ideas. You have to exist outside the box, especially in the real estate and mortgage space. Agents and loan officers are nothing more than a commodity unless you can step out of that box or step out of that frame and do things that provide value and do things that are different. So I believe you have to have the ideas to be able to do that. But then if you don't go and put them in place, it doesn't matter. And so somebody whose own business is I've owned brokerages, mortgage brokerage, real estate brokerages if you don't implement things, nothing moves forward. \n\nAnd if you're the leader of your business, which every real estate agent, every mortgage person is, if you're the leader, you have to be pushing forward. And the only way to move forward is to implement. And when you implement, you have to accept. I may have to tweak right, so I may not be great the first time I do it, but by the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth time I can get good at it. And I think what happens is most people they implement, they go. Oh, that didn't work the way I thought they go, it doesn't work. No, you just have to tweak it because you didn't work and right. \n\nStuart: There's some discipline and expertise and the likelihood of hitting anything out of the park. The first time is slim. I think there's an also an element of kind of like the shiny object syndrome. Because there are so many ideas, so many implementations, it's easier to or maybe it's not even easier, but it's less. There's less accountability to think oh, it was the idea that was bad, I just need to find another idea, rather than it was my implementation. That could have been better and I just need to have a little bit more practice and I think that you just hit the nail on the head. \n\nBob: We always look at oh well, there's something wrong with whatever shiny object I have. So that had to be the problem. \n\nExcuse me, because it couldn't be me right and we just have to accept as people that, no matter what we do, the first time we do it we're not that great at it, because I promise the fifth time you do it you'll be better than the first time, and the tenth time you do it you'll be better than the fifth time. And so you know. That's like hey, you've got to do things, you know, a hundred times or a thousand times before you get good at it. It's a hundred percent. \n\nTrue, yeah, and I think what happens is people just do it one or two times, they get blown out and it doesn't feel right for me, instead of going back and making changes and putting things into their own personality, for example, like one of the things I don't like to do is I don't like to write scripts. I have them, but what happens is then people read a script hi, stuart, good morning, how are you today? Well, that's not going to work right, and so until you get comfortable going hey, stuart, how you doing? My name is Bob, I'm right, and you put it into a normal tone and you get good and you get comfortable at it. \n\nIt's not going to work very well, and the only way that you're going to get comfortable is really what I recommend to everybody, and really I don't care what business you're in, is that you role play, right like, why think about it? Why would you practice, you know, in the real state space? Why would you practice in an actual listing presentation where there's money on the line? And you're practicing now? Why don't you just grab another agent, a spouse, a friend of somebody, enroll, play it when there's no money involved first? \n\nStuart: particularly, I think. Realism yeah, this is in mortgage brokers particularly, maybe even more so than some lower transaction businesses the value in those converted appointments is so high, compared with selling someone a twenty five dollar widget, that the college, the idea of practicing before actually turning up I mean, at least if you're going to practice whilst you're there and have the commitment to carry on and see it through, I guess that's better than giving up too soon. But the idea of role play, I think it seems somewhat artificial or kind of academic to people. But when you look at sportsman, high performance sports I was at the Miami Grand Prix with a friend earlier in the year and my dad's super into the Grand Prix I am not so much friend, andrew super into it. \n\nSo he I just spoke to him last week and he was saying that the teams had moved from North America to Europe and then back to South America. There was some real tight schedule and was talking about one of the drivers who was flying in two days early specifically to be on the simulator for two days before that course. So on the lead to the example that with that idea of role play, we talk about it in a real sense or in a sales sense and it seems kind of contrived. But if we took that exact same scenario and put it into a professional sports context, we've all heard of Tiger Woods kind of just practicing every hole in the racing car, drivers simulating the course. It's such a common experience in other elements but I think people right make it too easily yeah, I mean, think of a pilot. \n\nBob: Would you want to go? Hey, you know. Hi, welcome passengers. You know, today's my first flight. I've never even been behind a simulator. \n\nStuart: Let's give it a go right, yeah, I've watched on TV, but yeah definitely. \n\nBob: Yeah, in our profession we do that, and you know I'm always dumbfounded why we would do that. When there's money on the line, you go, well, figure it out. When I'm, you know, talking to somebody, it's like, well, not when there's money on the line. That just never made sense to me. And full disclosure. When I first started in sales I did not love role playing right, you were self-conscious and all those other things. But pretty quickly I learned it's better to mess it up in role playing than it is to mess it up sitting in front of somebody when you can get paid right and so that's what I mean by implementation. \n\nSo like, literally, you know, in about two hours after we're done with this today, I have a weekly implementation call and what we're doing is I will have the agents in my program literally role playing how to present a cash offer to a seller and do it with me. And you know well, depending on the week, maybe you know normally hundreds, but maybe some dozens this week of other realtors listening. So it's pressure, no question, but wouldn't it be much better to have the pressure now when there's no money on the line? \n\nright and so, before I have them go out, start calling potential sellers, I want to make sure that they can explain it properly yeah, and that to me just makes common sense anyway. \n\nStuart: One of those elements on. You talk about the call today, specifically around the cash offer side of things. Anything I think is that's not everyone's level of comfort is within their kind of sphere of experience and they can talk pretty comprehensively about that particular subject and once they've gone through it a couple of times as you say, perhaps practice not when there's money online, but once they've been through it a couple of times, it becomes second nature. But as soon as the subject starts going slightly wider or they're trying to introduce a new topic or have a new approach or deal with a new type of client, I think we can sometimes rely on that expertise of the familiar where anti-sellers are slightly the new thing that we're approaching, jumped off on a bit of a test. \n\nBob: And that's why in the book I actually have a 10, really, we just call it a roadmap just 10 steps, and what I teach real estate agents to do is focus on building a listing focus business right, and for years I've been predicting that what happened this year was going to happen, that we would get into the courts and this buyer agent commission. \n\nI just didn't see any way in the world we were going to win. It doesn't mean that it's valid or invalid. It's just you get in front of jury, of your peers, and then people start feeling like they were screwed and paying more than they had to. The outcome is not going to be good, and so if you were listing agents, you didn't have the flux in your business that you're going to have going forward in 2024. So I've always believed just if you list, you last and at the end of the day then it just becomes again. To me, 87% of all real estate agents fail in the first couple of years because we're not teaching the right things. Well, we know that the top earning agents in our industry are all listing agents. Why don't we model that instead of what doesn't work? \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think so it never made sense to me. \n\nBob: It's like why aren't we teaching agents how to build a listing focus business? And then the second step of that once you make that determination, I'm going to do it. You better figure out what your value to the marketplace is, and so you know. I just refer to that as value branding. So often you hear you need to build a personal brand. Well, and that's great. If you want to tell the world how wonderful you are, Personal branding is a great thing. In my opinion, I think we need to take and talk to the people about what value I bring to the relationship, so that the outcome that we have by working together is more lucrative for you Meaning you sold a house for more money, you netted more money, whatever that looks like, but it's about the experience that you're going to have as the consumer and what value I bring to you, not how wonderful I am. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nBob: And so I don't market that way. To me, it's all about what value are you bringing to the consumer, right? And if you can't answer that and that's what I talked about in the book and I give everybody you know how we do it in the system I created to be able to answer that. But if you can't tell people what your value is to the marketplace, why would they hire you, right? And the second part is if you don't provide any value, why will they refer you? \n\nStuart: to anybody. Yeah, those ideas of orchestrating those steps. I think even if people, if you push them and force them and they answer, they would see and maybe even come up themselves with a level of value being more important than personal brands. But the default, the general position, seems to be so much more people are focused on the personal brand side of things. Coming from the UK, you don't seem to get the same. It's much more company driven rather than person driven and I'm guessing that's some structural difference. \n\nI didn't know that many realtors in the UK to be able to look at the difference. But realises in the US, compared with a number of other professional services industries, definitely seems to be more. They default more to the person Right. They're based on a bus seat or a billboard rather than the value proposition at their point. \n\nBob: Right, so those. And so I think if you focus on the personal, you know you can be successful and you spend a lot of money doing it, but if you actually focus on the value that you bring, you can build a much better, a much more solid base of referral business. Right, right, which is ultimately referrals are free, so I could go out and spend all kinds of money on Facebook and Instagram and I could spend time making YouTube videos telling the world how wonderful I am, or I could actually take and change the financial outcome for people on their transactions and then at that point they're more than happy to refer people to to that. So I refer to something I called I don't call it the stadium pitch. I actually got it from Chet Holmes book the Ultimate Sales Machine. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nBob: And it's the concept hey, if we fill the stadium full of people for you buyer, sellers, investors and I said, stuart, I'm going to give you 30 seconds to get out there and tell those 50, 70, 500, 100,000 people, tell them about your business, tell them whatever you want to tell them to do that, and I'm going to instruct them prior. If you're boring, they can just get up and walk out, it doesn't matter. And then you go okay, go. What do you say? And the typical real estate default answers Well, I've been in the business for 25 years and I've sold 300 million and I love my clients and I was born and raised here and etc. Etc. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nBob: It's like come on, yawn, that doesn't speak to anything. And so what I encourage everybody to do is to create that, that stadium pitch, to be able to do that. And people say to me all the time it's like wow, that's not realistic, that's never going to happen. It's like, well, I disagree with you, probably not 50 or 75,000 people. But you go to a B and I meeting a Chamber of Commerce a little tip, any of those networking groups and everybody gets their one minute to tell about you and they get up and they say that stuff. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nBob: And I'm going like how compelling would that be? So in the book I outline our stadium pitch. It's very, very simple. Hey, there are 3 mistakes that homeowners make that prevent them from having their home paid off in 7 to 10 years and accumulating a million dollars in cash from that property In addition to the equity. And all we simply do is we rearrange the interest that you pay so it stays in your pocket instead of the bank. If you'd like to see how fast you could have your home paid off and how many hundreds of thousands of dollars you could save, schedule a 15 minute call with me. That's more compelling than saying, hey, I've been doing this for 30 years and I was born and raised here, which I wasn't that kind of stuff. \n\nRight, when people understand that there's a potential value and it's different than what everybody else says, that's how you Change the perception of you as a professional. So people you say to me all the time say so you're kind of like the Dave Ramsey or Susie Yorman of of real estate and mortgage. It's like, yeah, there's things I disagree with them on, but by and large yes. And so if realtors understood that they had to have a value proposition, a difference in how they work. Like why would you refer a friend to me? Well, if I could help your friend get completely out of debt in seven to ten years, save hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments and interest and then use that to fund their retirement, well, that's a good reason to refer your friends or family members to me. \n\nStuart: That comes back to that value proposition like, say, well, leveraging the relationships because there's another existing relationship there. It's actually the value that you're providing to the person. The ten ideas that form the book and bring those together, are they? There's a consistency. I've got a cover. Let me just bring that up. Click the right button. Okay, so if you list your last, so this idea is consistent across a number of the things that you do, whether it's the book, the podcast, the websites, this Framework. Is this one of the fundamental frameworks to the rest of the program or is this something that was brought together for the purpose of the book? \n\nBob: They're basically different steps and tenets of what I do, but I brought everything together in the book to say, hey, here are the ten things that you have to do, right? So a simple one everybody goes. You know the four-step process starts with well, who will you talk to? Well, real estate agents talk to everybody. Well, it doesn't matter who I talked to, it's talk to everybody. Well, no, if you want to actually focus on listings, then you need to be talking to People that have homes to sell, or people who can refer you to homes that have homes to sell. And everybody goes. Well, in today's market, just, people aren't selling their homes. And I would beg to differ with you because, well, in every market we have people that get divorced. They don't care what the interest rate is on the home they need to sell right 65% of all listings in 2022 came from senior citizens, mainly. \n\nAs we age Right, we have to downsize, and so 65% of the people that are selling in your neighborhood are Seniors. Well, there's a good place to start. And then there's things that we do Algorithmically that we know they have a higher likelihood of selling. Well, that's who we focus on like a laser Because they're likely to sell. And then, if you think about it, there's a whole industry around that right a state planning attorneys, medicare insurance, people on the divorce side, divorce attorneys so there's all these other professionals that can refer business to you. For example, one of my agents works with a divorce attorney. He gets three to five listings every month from them. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nBob: Now we've got a probate. One of my guys in Northwest Indiana works with a probate attorney. 16 listings last year from a probate attorney. \n\nStuart: Wow, yeah, yeah. This idea of complimentary, non competing business it isn't just taking that moment to think outside of that first degree circle to the people who have your clients, who you can help best but you don't necessarily have immediate access to it starts opening up so many channels and over time it builds as well. I mean, I'm sure the agency work would see this time and time again. The first time they do that thought exercise, they'll they'll identify one person but keep doing that exercise. And five years down the track, that's a pretty robust business. I can't. I did see a start earlier this year. \n\nBob: They're great part is that that's recession proof Business, right. People are gonna continue to your old. 10,000 people a day turn age, turn 65 every day, right now. That business is gonna be there for decades. Divorce is never going away. That has nothing to do with the economy. If I'm a senior and I fall and get hurt or I get ill and I have to sell in my house, it's not economy driven Business, right? So the problem is, yeah, you have to determine who you're gonna talk to, then you have to figure out where you're gonna find them. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nBob: And once you start to specialize right I'm sure you've heard the phrase the riches are in the niches Don't be everything to everybody. Focus on one thing. Those one thing could be sellers, and then there's subsets of sellers underneath that, and then there's subsets of prospects. I have the people at own the house, but I have people that refer them. Yeah, that's where you focus your business. \n\nStuart: Right, that idea of specialization and the riches being in the niches. It's the first tenant of the of the book blueprint scorecard. It's the picking that single target audience and thinking of things in terms of campaign by campaign by campaign. It's not saying that you'll never address other things, but for this particular exercise, doubling down it just makes the whole process so much easier because, as your guys I'm sure see as well, the language that you use with that particular group, the follow up sequences you've got in place, the examples that just spring to mind as you having those conversations, once you've all played it and got the language square in your mind, it just makes it so much more straightforward. \n\nBob: And that does come to the expertise part where we're talking earlier like you have to get better and better at this. Well, the more you enter into those markets, the more you understand what's important. Let's say to a senior Right, right, so seniors, you don't go in and just real estate agent all over them, you just turn them off because they're used to having people try and scam them. To be honest with you, and at the end of the day, the better you get at understanding the needs and things of that nature, the more success you'll have. But that just simply takes time, transactions, understanding, conversations, networking, like, hey, what's important? What are the five things that are important for estate planning that people should have? \n\nOne of the things if you have a 45, 50 year old client, the question would be hey, stuart, have your parents signed a beneficiary deed? Yet you know it'd be better if they had a trust, but it'd be better, it would be good if they had a will. But the very worst case scenario is they have a beneficiary deed and so often I talk to real estate agents they go what is that Right? It's like well, when the person dies, the deed goes directly to the descendant. It's not going through per bait or any of the rest of the stuff. So at the end of the day, the more you get involved in that, the more knowledgeable you get, the more value you bring to the client. It doesn't happen like day one hey, I'm going to focus like that and all of a sudden I'm going to be an expert at it. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and that being in it for the long term, the specialization and adding value, layering on the value, one level on top of the other, that is. I was listening to a podcast. I own an electric vehicle. I was listening to a podcast the other day. \n\nThe guy was talking about going into one of the traditional manufacturers who had an electric range but none of the sales guys knew anything about it. So he was giving them the details because he was enthusiast and then had gone back with another friend two months later and the guys still didn't know the details like how big the battery was or what their average range was or whether how affected cold weather was. And he'd literally given them the information. But by not doubling down in that particular specialization or having an interest to double down in that specialization, the likelihood of you building a relationship with a senior where you are able to provide that extra value and given a broader perspective, versus just going in and like the line you use, kind of real estate realtor all over them, it just makes such a difference and I think if you're in any industry for the long term, having that interest and and respect for the clients to want to be able to provide that value really makes the difference. All right, yeah. \n\nBob: Yeah, you know, I, about six years ago, I started looking at the market. The way things were happening is when these lawsuits first started and I said, you know, quite honestly, it's like this isn't going to end well. But the question you have to ask yourself really is why would a seller pay a buyer's agents? And you could say, well, the seller doesn't pay the buyer's agent, the listing agent does. The end of the day, the seller pays it. Right, the buyer pays it in the form of an elevated home price, just the way it works, and be honest with with that. But basically, what you're doing is saying, hey, I'm going to pay you 6% or I'm going to offer 6% and you're going to give 3% to a buyer's agent. Oh, yes, do it. By the way, that buyer's agent's job is very simple it's to negotiate the best price in terms for the buyer, which means it's going to take money out of your pocket at closing Right. When you explain that to a seller like that and I just go is there a reason you'd want to do it that way? And they say, well, that's the way it's done? It's like, well, what if it wasn't done that way? \n\nAnd I started having these conversations with sellers and I created a system called Home Boss that was designed to answer that. Hey, the buyer's going to pay the commission. We have a way to do it where it's compliant with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It's all completely disclosed, so we don't have any lawsuit issues. It's if a buyer wanted to negotiate their commission with the agent, they could see it right up front what it was. They could do whatever they want. But at the end of the day, what it allowed us to do is it allowed us to take and get the seller the highest market value, and we can guarantee that because of the amount of traffic that we get and we can do it 14 days. We don't even put a lockbox on the house, right? Because biggest thing for sellers they hate the hassle and headaches of listing. Corelogic did a study about a year ago that said 77% of home buyers would be willing to give up 5% to 10% of their equity just to eliminate the normal process of selling a home. So if we could get price, which is a big deal, we could eliminate hassles and headaches and get it done fast. We could do that but at the same time be compliant with the courts, and so simply, all we do is our fee is 3% to sell home and if another agent brings the buyer, we add 3% to the price. It's all disclosed. It happens online and everybody knows what everybody else is offering. There's no highest and best blind offers. \n\nAnd so, about six years ago, I seen that coming. My son was just getting licensed, he was 22. And it was like you know how's he going to walk into somebody's house and they're not going to go? Kid, how old are you and how many homes have you sold? And what we're able to do is create a process that we focused on the process and not the person. This is the process that allows you to get these things and we're able to drive traffic like our record open house was April 3 of 2023. We had 1,224 people in an open house. \n\nThe question would be, how long would it take you if you put it in MLS and you let the normal process? How long would it take you to get 1200 people in an open house or to visit the listing? We did it in two days, which is how we can. You know how we know that we can guarantee that the maximum value for the property, and so it's just about looking outside the industry. Six years ago, I can tell you, people told me I was nuts. Realtors were like this is crazy. Why are you doing this? And suddenly now it's not so crazy anymore because we lost. And now one of the people I talked to five years ago actually had a team, was named in one of the lawsuits, called me up and said, my God, I should have listened to you. \n\nStuart: Yeah, like you say, even with the lawsuits on the natural, the joy of the peers naturally signing on the side of the consumer because there's sympathy and it seems unfair and the big guy versus the little guy type approach, but just the natural tendency towards faster, more seamless transactions online. The whole COVID approach to forcing people to be more comfortable or making people be more comfortable pretty quickly with purely online transactions. I think that accelerated things by five years. But the situation we're in now that study saying people would be willing to pay, give up real money, just for ease of transaction, anything convenience trumps anything and as more and more people heading down that route, I think it's the agents who are adopting that or acknowledging it and then embracing it slightly will be the ones who are heading in another five years and not just fighting the nostalgia of how it was when they first got started. \n\nBob: Yeah, 100%. So it's funny Many, many of my agents actually do listing presentations on zoom. They don't. They don't even go into the house anymore. Well, pre COVID, that like people didn't know what zoom was right, so you couldn't necessarily do that. \n\nSo there are some things that came out of COVID that helped us as an industry, and one of my agents literally just sold his house, now travels around the country, has a I call it a rockstar tour bus and he takes his listings via zoom traveling across the country and he has a buyer's team that does the open houses form. He's traveling the country and he takes two to three listings a week traveling in a you know, a luxury RV, a tour bus, whatever you want to call it. And the whole paradigm has changed because of COVID and yet people will still say no, people won't do that. And it's like my answer is well, please don't tell all my agents who are doing that, because it works pretty darn good. Right, and you got to change your paradigm and you have to start looking at how the world's going to change and what you can do to be in front of it. \n\nStuart: Yeah, you know everything with AI. \n\nBob: Now it's. You know, is AI going to replace a real estate agent? No, but boy, can it take care of some of your tasks and things like. Hey, I have a podcast. If you list your last podcast and guess what, I had it on AI. It used to take three hours. I used to have a firm that did it for me and everything else and, you know, paid a few hundred dollars a month to do that and Literally I uploaded into an AI system and three minutes later I have a perfectly edited video and podcast. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah that that's speeding up of the task related things. When you look at the real estate industry across the board, how many things are slowed down by Old or legacy ways of doing things, or because that's the way it's always done, or the the Reducing need to do things with face-to-face contact, the whole title side of the business that it just I I'm surprised at that still exists and it really. \n\nBob: Real estate is a very College, traditional business, if you will. They still teach agents the same thing that they've been teaching for the last 50 or 60 years. And my thing is, I have a corporate background and you know my answer is hey, if I ran a corporation and 87% of my employees washed out in the first two years Like we'd be firing somebody right. Yet in the real estate industry that's what we do and it's like, well, that's just how it works. It's a tough business. Well, no, what if we started teaching them different things to be more effective? \n\nYeah and Changing the way that they're trained, instead of just throwing them out to the wolves and go door knock. You know, go knock on doors. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think that expectation that it's a personal business and you can't replace the human element of it is true to the point of the Relationships and making sure that the client feels like you've, you're their trusted partner, but all of the ancillary things around it, those are the things that will go quickly and You're right. Speeding up the process, changing the training to be more effective in 2023 and beyond, means that they can double down on that human element and make sure that that's the piece that is replaceable by machines, but streamlining everything else, taking away the headache that that does wash out so many of the people. \n\nBob: It's what what I actually teach is is pretty simple Process. The only job that you have each day is to talk to 10 potential sellers or 10 People who could refer you to sellers. The only job you get paid for is to talk to people. There's a real estate agent or mortgage person. The only thing we actually get paid for is to get a listing agreement signed or a buyer broker agreement signed the only thing we get paid to do. Everything else can be clerical for lack of, you know, a description. So if you want to maximize the amount of money you make, well, it's pretty simple Just talk to 10 people a day and then, if you can take the 10 people a day and get better at your value branding, your value Proposition, instead of talking to like, let's say, the average realtor has to talk to a hundred people to get one listing Right. \n\nThey get talked to ten to get into, or they talked to a hundred to get ten appointments. Then they list one, two, whatever the number is. Well, what if all we had to do is talk to ten to get six or seven listings Right? So it isn't that we have to talk to more people, because I hear that all the time. Real estate's a numbers game. To some level that could be true, but it's actually a skills game. Our job needs to be I could. If I can talk to less people to get more signatures, I'll make more money in less time. \n\nRight and so one of my coaching tenants is I don't want our people working more than 40 hours a week, because then you're working. If you're working 80 hours a week, you're not working smart, you're working hard. Let's work smart, improve our skills and what we're saying to people and what we talk to people about, and that's why I don't. I don't love scripts. Scripts because they become Something that's red and we eliminate all tonality, all speed, pace, things like that. As a natural, you know, my natural tone is talk fast and like I dump a lot of stuff out, but if you actually hear me talk to somebody in a sales situation, I'm actually very slow, I'm contemplative. Right, it's all that tonality that comes into it. Why aren't we teaching that in the real estate business and saying here's a script. Right, you see it all over Facebook all the time. Hey, who wants my physboscripts or who wants this script? The script itself is there's nothing new out there. The question is, what's your skill level In that scripting, in talking to people? \n\nStuart: right, exactly, it's the taking, the, the, the, the tool in the idea and tailing it for your particular Use case and your personality and actually internalizing it as well. It's not just reading as you say off a page and it's the words, their magic. It's the fact that you're able to Internalize and use those words in a real conversation with a real person and and kind of make that connection and show the value so that they take that decision and exactly podcast there as well. \n\nThis idea of bringing the ideas together into a book and how you plan on using the book to get in front of the people who you Can best help. Was that an idea that was pretty crystal clear, when you mind before you started, or have the ideas kind of formalized as you've kind of made the move to bring it together? \n\nBob: I'm pretty good at making a decision and then figuring out all the different ways that I can. You know the different tentacles that go out to to do that. But no, I went into it with the idea that it's it's simply a Promotional tool, if you will, and I don't like to use the word promotional, but part of my mission is that I want to start teaching agents and lenders how to financially impact their clients. And I can't do that one one real estate agent time and I speak on stages and I do different things, but at the end of the day, a book gets it out there where they maybe they want to start to interact and go. Well, this kind of makes sense. And what might the next step be? Well, we're turning that into podcasts, which will turn it into videos, which will turn it into blog posts, which will turn it into content, which will turn it into reels and shorts and all those things. So, yeah, there's kind of a master plan to how that all will work, but part of it is to let people experience really agents and lenders experience, say that content and see if it makes sense to them. \n\nMy brand of things are the way that I think may not be. You know, it's not for everybody, right? Somebody wants to be a value brand. No, no, no, it's all about me and I want to be. Everything is about how wonderful I am. They're probably not going to relate well to what I talk about and that's okay. \n\nStuart: That idea that the book's not the product, the conversation from the book is the product and the matching of your approach with the ultimate conversation you're going to have with people, because the business model isn't sell a book and make money from a book. \n\nThe business model is give a book away, start that conversation and eventually talk to someone one on one. And if there is that consistency of what they've read or what they skimmed, and then they're having the conversation with you and the conversation you're having with them, that congruency then leads to the next step, so much better than I think. People sometimes want to write in a way that doesn't reflect them or want to include content that isn't necessarily aligned with their mission or their message, and it misses the opportunity because the, as I said, the book isn't the product. We're not looking at book sales. It's the ability to start a conversation with someone who can then eventually become a client. And if they're married up, then not that we're necessarily trying to sift and sort as the primary purpose of it, but if it's just some amount of selecting and really help those people who it's a yes for take that next step, then that's the perfect use case for it. \n\nBob: And that is that. That was the entire goal. This was never about like selling a book and making money with the book. It's like, hey, let people experience what it is that I do, and in the book I give them the links. They can attend classes. I teach classes every Wednesday so they can come and experience that. They can go to our website, real estate asset advisorsorg. They can watch replays of those classes, right, and we're not selling anything at the class. \n\nIf you want to hear what I'm teaching and that resonates with you. That's how we'll attract clients that are dedicated to the same mission that I'm on, which is impacting your client's life financially. And you know, again, if you think about it, real estate is the number one source of wealth. For everybody in the United States, or at least who owns it, it's a number one source of wealth, and yet this is the business we're in and we don't do anything that actually helps teach people how to utilize it and leverage it to build wealth. Well, that's really what our value is opening a door, writing a contract, and you can get anybody to do that, and so my message will go out in all these different arenas and then I'll let them experience that and if it resonates with them, great. \n\nAnd you know, even in the book I give them access. They can schedule a call with me. I don't care, they don't have to be a client. I'll schedule a call with somebody and talk to them about their business and see if it resonates and if it makes sense for us to work together, great. If it doesn't, great. If I can impart some knowledge or you can learn something from going to the class, is great. So it's really just an invitation to say, hey, experience this content and if any of it resonates and you need help you know I have a plan for that. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think it's the perfect utilization of it because you've got a framework that exists already. You've got the tools to help people. There's an easy model that people can understand it and imagine for themselves how to put it into practice for their business. And then there's a very straightforward and simple next step. Whether you're really committed and want to jump in with a call to see how it works for you, or whether you just want to dip your toe in the water a little bit more and attend some of the classes, and this bringing together of all of those elements that you have into a holistic approach to kind of move that conversation forward I think it's a perfect implementation of it. \n\nBob: Well see how it works out, but I think it is and it's a way to get the message out and it'll resonate with some not all, but it's the ones that it resonates with. That I'm interested in talking to. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and you can help them and they can get the best from you in that experience. That transaction 100%. Time goes fast, as always on these calls, If you're going to check back in a little bit down the track and get some feedback on what the feedback from people who have been through that particular funnel so come from not having heard from you before to seeing something about the book, to joining the program and taking it further. I think that'd be really interesting for people. I want to make sure that people can access you and make sure that they can follow up and find out more. So where's the best place for people to go if they want to check out both the book and what you do? \n\nBob: Probably the easiest place is to go to www. If you list you lastcom, perfect. \n\nAnd so you can connect to the podcast, you can register for the classes, you can schedule a call. You can download. Right now I've got a what did I call it? A pre-editor version. So the books are being printed as we speak and the digital will be ready and I'll call it a week or two, but in the meantime we've got a pre-digital version that somebody could download and go from there. So it's pretty simple, because if you list you last and wwwifulistulastcom and that'll connect you with everything that we do, Fantastic. \n\nStuart: Well, we'll put links in the show notes. So if people are listening on the podcast play, it will be in the show notes there or on the website. Obviously, it will be just below the video here. That before we wrap, actually that pre-edited, pre-live version idea. I think we were talking to someone I can't remember who it was a couple of months ago who had sent out a kind of like a slightly earlier version which was pretty much complete, but it just what didn't have all of the polish around it, had sent it out to their existing list and was using it as kind of like a referral interest generating tool, but positioned in the way of hey, we've worked together or you're in my world already. I really want to give you, like behind the scenes, insights into what's happening and then if you want to sign up or anyone you know wants to sign up for the final version, then head over here. \n\nAnd they generated quite a bit of excitement, not in some artificial presale list or best seller list or anything like that, just an authentic hey, we've worked together. I just wanted to share the behind the scenes and keep you up to date on what's going. That idea is fantastic and I think it just adds to the point you were making about building the value and the human element. That can't be AI to work. Is that one-on-one connection and doing things like that, the slightly more behind the scenes, or the sharing, the, the, the recipe, as things are being made? I think that just helps add that, that real connection to people, great idea. \n\nBob: Yeah, We've given away. We've had a lot of people download the book already. This isn't about being an Amazon best seller or anything else. It's about getting a message out, finding a group of people that are committed to the same things, because when we do that, that's how I can. That's I personally can have the biggest impact. I could sit there and scream in the mountain top about how to take and utilize a real estate to build your personal net worth and things like that. Or I could have thousands of real estate agents that I teach how to do it and then they go out and do it. I can have a much bigger impact that way. So it starts with a, a simple book, and we'll move it from there. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's exciting. There's so much opportunity here to bring it all together and we really should hook back up in a few months time and just give it an update on on how it's going Right. Well, thanks so much for your time. I know this is a busy week in the lead up to Christmas. We appreciate you taking some time and my pleasure from it. \n\nBob: No, my pleasure. Thanks so much. \n\nStuart: Okay, well, we'll make sure that, as I say, the links are in the podcast player and in the just below the video on the website here. Thanks everyone for listening. This show is going to be the last one for Christmas, I think, so I hope everyone has a fantastic holiday. We'll push another shout next week and then, bob, like I say thanks for your time and we'll catch up with everyone soon. \n\nBob: Perfect Thanks for your pleasure. Bye. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we caught up with Bob Mangold to talk about how his book 'If You List, You Last' is working to start conversations with realtors and mortgage brokers.
\n\nBob's business is helping those in an industry swamped with 'training' opportunities by working with them to achieve tangible outcome.
\n\nHis book is the perfect way to engage one of his key audiences, realtors, by identifying 4 simple steps they can take to improve their listing business.
\n\nWe talk about how a book helps cut through the noise of other trainers to identify those people who resonate with his message and ultimatley become great clients.
\n\nYour book becomes an asset you can use across many channels as the tool that amplifies work you're doing to reach new people.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/156
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nBob: Thanks, how about you, stuart?
\n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, thank you. I'm in the week leading up to Christmas, as we record, so I'm not quite sure whether it's busy or quiet, or it seems to be a little bit of a hectic rush towards the finish line at the end of the year. How is it for you?
\n\nBob: Yeah, always.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nBob: Always.
\n\nStuart: So, bob, would you describe yourself as a realtor coach? What would be the best way of describing it?
\n\nBob: That would be okay, is a word. Really, what I do is to help real estate agents and mortgage brokers and mortgage loan officers implement. So there's lots of coaches that'll get on a call and you know, every week or every two weeks and say, hey, stuart, you should be doing this, this and this. Did you do that? No, oh well, the next two weeks you need to do that.
\n\nAnd then that, to me, is by and large what you see in coaching and almost every industry, and it's not that it's a bad thing, it's just nobody actually helps on implementing right. So you can have coaching, you can have marketing. I look at it as what we do is we implement, and so I don't let people move. I take them down a path of basically 10 things that they need to do to implement in the business and we don't move to step two until we have step one done and we don't move to step three until we have step two done. Then we implement, because you could have the greatest ideas, you can have the greatest system strategies, but if they're not implemented and executed, it doesn't matter.
\n\nStuart: Right, there's a podcast probably a lot of the audience are aware of you probably are as well the Isle of Markets in podcast and the idea around the getting the most value from the ideas. I would have a heated or enthusiastic debate with my business partner, dean, because it means very much, on the ideas. A good idea trumps everything else and I'm very much on the side of without any implementation. I could Google ideas and have 50 to implement, but without implementation nothing happens and of course the reality is both is true, but it's always interesting the spirit of debate, because I think there is a lot of heat and light and energy and other offerings around the idea side of things. But unless there's that implementation and I don't want to say necessarily the real estate is worse than anyone else, but it's definitely a challenge of business owners across the board having that implementation step. So your approach on the implementation side was that from a hard one experience or were you naturally on that side of the fence?
\n\nBob: You know, listen, I am of the mind that I would agree with both of you, both Dean and you, have to have good ideas. You have to exist outside the box, especially in the real estate and mortgage space. Agents and loan officers are nothing more than a commodity unless you can step out of that box or step out of that frame and do things that provide value and do things that are different. So I believe you have to have the ideas to be able to do that. But then if you don't go and put them in place, it doesn't matter. And so somebody whose own business is I've owned brokerages, mortgage brokerage, real estate brokerages if you don't implement things, nothing moves forward.
\n\nAnd if you're the leader of your business, which every real estate agent, every mortgage person is, if you're the leader, you have to be pushing forward. And the only way to move forward is to implement. And when you implement, you have to accept. I may have to tweak right, so I may not be great the first time I do it, but by the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth time I can get good at it. And I think what happens is most people they implement, they go. Oh, that didn't work the way I thought they go, it doesn't work. No, you just have to tweak it because you didn't work and right.
\n\nStuart: There's some discipline and expertise and the likelihood of hitting anything out of the park. The first time is slim. I think there's an also an element of kind of like the shiny object syndrome. Because there are so many ideas, so many implementations, it's easier to or maybe it's not even easier, but it's less. There's less accountability to think oh, it was the idea that was bad, I just need to find another idea, rather than it was my implementation. That could have been better and I just need to have a little bit more practice and I think that you just hit the nail on the head.
\n\nBob: We always look at oh well, there's something wrong with whatever shiny object I have. So that had to be the problem.
\n\nExcuse me, because it couldn't be me right and we just have to accept as people that, no matter what we do, the first time we do it we're not that great at it, because I promise the fifth time you do it you'll be better than the first time, and the tenth time you do it you'll be better than the fifth time. And so you know. That's like hey, you've got to do things, you know, a hundred times or a thousand times before you get good at it. It's a hundred percent.
\n\nTrue, yeah, and I think what happens is people just do it one or two times, they get blown out and it doesn't feel right for me, instead of going back and making changes and putting things into their own personality, for example, like one of the things I don't like to do is I don't like to write scripts. I have them, but what happens is then people read a script hi, stuart, good morning, how are you today? Well, that's not going to work right, and so until you get comfortable going hey, stuart, how you doing? My name is Bob, I'm right, and you put it into a normal tone and you get good and you get comfortable at it.
\n\nIt's not going to work very well, and the only way that you're going to get comfortable is really what I recommend to everybody, and really I don't care what business you're in, is that you role play, right like, why think about it? Why would you practice, you know, in the real state space? Why would you practice in an actual listing presentation where there's money on the line? And you're practicing now? Why don't you just grab another agent, a spouse, a friend of somebody, enroll, play it when there's no money involved first?
\n\nStuart: particularly, I think. Realism yeah, this is in mortgage brokers particularly, maybe even more so than some lower transaction businesses the value in those converted appointments is so high, compared with selling someone a twenty five dollar widget, that the college, the idea of practicing before actually turning up I mean, at least if you're going to practice whilst you're there and have the commitment to carry on and see it through, I guess that's better than giving up too soon. But the idea of role play, I think it seems somewhat artificial or kind of academic to people. But when you look at sportsman, high performance sports I was at the Miami Grand Prix with a friend earlier in the year and my dad's super into the Grand Prix I am not so much friend, andrew super into it.
\n\nSo he I just spoke to him last week and he was saying that the teams had moved from North America to Europe and then back to South America. There was some real tight schedule and was talking about one of the drivers who was flying in two days early specifically to be on the simulator for two days before that course. So on the lead to the example that with that idea of role play, we talk about it in a real sense or in a sales sense and it seems kind of contrived. But if we took that exact same scenario and put it into a professional sports context, we've all heard of Tiger Woods kind of just practicing every hole in the racing car, drivers simulating the course. It's such a common experience in other elements but I think people right make it too easily yeah, I mean, think of a pilot.
\n\nBob: Would you want to go? Hey, you know. Hi, welcome passengers. You know, today's my first flight. I've never even been behind a simulator.
\n\nStuart: Let's give it a go right, yeah, I've watched on TV, but yeah definitely.
\n\nBob: Yeah, in our profession we do that, and you know I'm always dumbfounded why we would do that. When there's money on the line, you go, well, figure it out. When I'm, you know, talking to somebody, it's like, well, not when there's money on the line. That just never made sense to me. And full disclosure. When I first started in sales I did not love role playing right, you were self-conscious and all those other things. But pretty quickly I learned it's better to mess it up in role playing than it is to mess it up sitting in front of somebody when you can get paid right and so that's what I mean by implementation.
\n\nSo like, literally, you know, in about two hours after we're done with this today, I have a weekly implementation call and what we're doing is I will have the agents in my program literally role playing how to present a cash offer to a seller and do it with me. And you know well, depending on the week, maybe you know normally hundreds, but maybe some dozens this week of other realtors listening. So it's pressure, no question, but wouldn't it be much better to have the pressure now when there's no money on the line?
\n\nright and so, before I have them go out, start calling potential sellers, I want to make sure that they can explain it properly yeah, and that to me just makes common sense anyway.
\n\nStuart: One of those elements on. You talk about the call today, specifically around the cash offer side of things. Anything I think is that's not everyone's level of comfort is within their kind of sphere of experience and they can talk pretty comprehensively about that particular subject and once they've gone through it a couple of times as you say, perhaps practice not when there's money online, but once they've been through it a couple of times, it becomes second nature. But as soon as the subject starts going slightly wider or they're trying to introduce a new topic or have a new approach or deal with a new type of client, I think we can sometimes rely on that expertise of the familiar where anti-sellers are slightly the new thing that we're approaching, jumped off on a bit of a test.
\n\nBob: And that's why in the book I actually have a 10, really, we just call it a roadmap just 10 steps, and what I teach real estate agents to do is focus on building a listing focus business right, and for years I've been predicting that what happened this year was going to happen, that we would get into the courts and this buyer agent commission.
\n\nI just didn't see any way in the world we were going to win. It doesn't mean that it's valid or invalid. It's just you get in front of jury, of your peers, and then people start feeling like they were screwed and paying more than they had to. The outcome is not going to be good, and so if you were listing agents, you didn't have the flux in your business that you're going to have going forward in 2024. So I've always believed just if you list, you last and at the end of the day then it just becomes again. To me, 87% of all real estate agents fail in the first couple of years because we're not teaching the right things. Well, we know that the top earning agents in our industry are all listing agents. Why don't we model that instead of what doesn't work?
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think so it never made sense to me.
\n\nBob: It's like why aren't we teaching agents how to build a listing focus business? And then the second step of that once you make that determination, I'm going to do it. You better figure out what your value to the marketplace is, and so you know. I just refer to that as value branding. So often you hear you need to build a personal brand. Well, and that's great. If you want to tell the world how wonderful you are, Personal branding is a great thing. In my opinion, I think we need to take and talk to the people about what value I bring to the relationship, so that the outcome that we have by working together is more lucrative for you Meaning you sold a house for more money, you netted more money, whatever that looks like, but it's about the experience that you're going to have as the consumer and what value I bring to you, not how wonderful I am.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nBob: And so I don't market that way. To me, it's all about what value are you bringing to the consumer, right? And if you can't answer that and that's what I talked about in the book and I give everybody you know how we do it in the system I created to be able to answer that. But if you can't tell people what your value is to the marketplace, why would they hire you, right? And the second part is if you don't provide any value, why will they refer you?
\n\nStuart: to anybody. Yeah, those ideas of orchestrating those steps. I think even if people, if you push them and force them and they answer, they would see and maybe even come up themselves with a level of value being more important than personal brands. But the default, the general position, seems to be so much more people are focused on the personal brand side of things. Coming from the UK, you don't seem to get the same. It's much more company driven rather than person driven and I'm guessing that's some structural difference.
\n\nI didn't know that many realtors in the UK to be able to look at the difference. But realises in the US, compared with a number of other professional services industries, definitely seems to be more. They default more to the person Right. They're based on a bus seat or a billboard rather than the value proposition at their point.
\n\nBob: Right, so those. And so I think if you focus on the personal, you know you can be successful and you spend a lot of money doing it, but if you actually focus on the value that you bring, you can build a much better, a much more solid base of referral business. Right, right, which is ultimately referrals are free, so I could go out and spend all kinds of money on Facebook and Instagram and I could spend time making YouTube videos telling the world how wonderful I am, or I could actually take and change the financial outcome for people on their transactions and then at that point they're more than happy to refer people to to that. So I refer to something I called I don't call it the stadium pitch. I actually got it from Chet Holmes book the Ultimate Sales Machine.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nBob: And it's the concept hey, if we fill the stadium full of people for you buyer, sellers, investors and I said, stuart, I'm going to give you 30 seconds to get out there and tell those 50, 70, 500, 100,000 people, tell them about your business, tell them whatever you want to tell them to do that, and I'm going to instruct them prior. If you're boring, they can just get up and walk out, it doesn't matter. And then you go okay, go. What do you say? And the typical real estate default answers Well, I've been in the business for 25 years and I've sold 300 million and I love my clients and I was born and raised here and etc. Etc.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nBob: It's like come on, yawn, that doesn't speak to anything. And so what I encourage everybody to do is to create that, that stadium pitch, to be able to do that. And people say to me all the time it's like wow, that's not realistic, that's never going to happen. It's like, well, I disagree with you, probably not 50 or 75,000 people. But you go to a B and I meeting a Chamber of Commerce a little tip, any of those networking groups and everybody gets their one minute to tell about you and they get up and they say that stuff.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nBob: And I'm going like how compelling would that be? So in the book I outline our stadium pitch. It's very, very simple. Hey, there are 3 mistakes that homeowners make that prevent them from having their home paid off in 7 to 10 years and accumulating a million dollars in cash from that property In addition to the equity. And all we simply do is we rearrange the interest that you pay so it stays in your pocket instead of the bank. If you'd like to see how fast you could have your home paid off and how many hundreds of thousands of dollars you could save, schedule a 15 minute call with me. That's more compelling than saying, hey, I've been doing this for 30 years and I was born and raised here, which I wasn't that kind of stuff.
\n\nRight, when people understand that there's a potential value and it's different than what everybody else says, that's how you Change the perception of you as a professional. So people you say to me all the time say so you're kind of like the Dave Ramsey or Susie Yorman of of real estate and mortgage. It's like, yeah, there's things I disagree with them on, but by and large yes. And so if realtors understood that they had to have a value proposition, a difference in how they work. Like why would you refer a friend to me? Well, if I could help your friend get completely out of debt in seven to ten years, save hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments and interest and then use that to fund their retirement, well, that's a good reason to refer your friends or family members to me.
\n\nStuart: That comes back to that value proposition like, say, well, leveraging the relationships because there's another existing relationship there. It's actually the value that you're providing to the person. The ten ideas that form the book and bring those together, are they? There's a consistency. I've got a cover. Let me just bring that up. Click the right button. Okay, so if you list your last, so this idea is consistent across a number of the things that you do, whether it's the book, the podcast, the websites, this Framework. Is this one of the fundamental frameworks to the rest of the program or is this something that was brought together for the purpose of the book?
\n\nBob: They're basically different steps and tenets of what I do, but I brought everything together in the book to say, hey, here are the ten things that you have to do, right? So a simple one everybody goes. You know the four-step process starts with well, who will you talk to? Well, real estate agents talk to everybody. Well, it doesn't matter who I talked to, it's talk to everybody. Well, no, if you want to actually focus on listings, then you need to be talking to People that have homes to sell, or people who can refer you to homes that have homes to sell. And everybody goes. Well, in today's market, just, people aren't selling their homes. And I would beg to differ with you because, well, in every market we have people that get divorced. They don't care what the interest rate is on the home they need to sell right 65% of all listings in 2022 came from senior citizens, mainly.
\n\nAs we age Right, we have to downsize, and so 65% of the people that are selling in your neighborhood are Seniors. Well, there's a good place to start. And then there's things that we do Algorithmically that we know they have a higher likelihood of selling. Well, that's who we focus on like a laser Because they're likely to sell. And then, if you think about it, there's a whole industry around that right a state planning attorneys, medicare insurance, people on the divorce side, divorce attorneys so there's all these other professionals that can refer business to you. For example, one of my agents works with a divorce attorney. He gets three to five listings every month from them.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nBob: Now we've got a probate. One of my guys in Northwest Indiana works with a probate attorney. 16 listings last year from a probate attorney.
\n\nStuart: Wow, yeah, yeah. This idea of complimentary, non competing business it isn't just taking that moment to think outside of that first degree circle to the people who have your clients, who you can help best but you don't necessarily have immediate access to it starts opening up so many channels and over time it builds as well. I mean, I'm sure the agency work would see this time and time again. The first time they do that thought exercise, they'll they'll identify one person but keep doing that exercise. And five years down the track, that's a pretty robust business. I can't. I did see a start earlier this year.
\n\nBob: They're great part is that that's recession proof Business, right. People are gonna continue to your old. 10,000 people a day turn age, turn 65 every day, right now. That business is gonna be there for decades. Divorce is never going away. That has nothing to do with the economy. If I'm a senior and I fall and get hurt or I get ill and I have to sell in my house, it's not economy driven Business, right? So the problem is, yeah, you have to determine who you're gonna talk to, then you have to figure out where you're gonna find them.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nBob: And once you start to specialize right I'm sure you've heard the phrase the riches are in the niches Don't be everything to everybody. Focus on one thing. Those one thing could be sellers, and then there's subsets of sellers underneath that, and then there's subsets of prospects. I have the people at own the house, but I have people that refer them. Yeah, that's where you focus your business.
\n\nStuart: Right, that idea of specialization and the riches being in the niches. It's the first tenant of the of the book blueprint scorecard. It's the picking that single target audience and thinking of things in terms of campaign by campaign by campaign. It's not saying that you'll never address other things, but for this particular exercise, doubling down it just makes the whole process so much easier because, as your guys I'm sure see as well, the language that you use with that particular group, the follow up sequences you've got in place, the examples that just spring to mind as you having those conversations, once you've all played it and got the language square in your mind, it just makes it so much more straightforward.
\n\nBob: And that does come to the expertise part where we're talking earlier like you have to get better and better at this. Well, the more you enter into those markets, the more you understand what's important. Let's say to a senior Right, right, so seniors, you don't go in and just real estate agent all over them, you just turn them off because they're used to having people try and scam them. To be honest with you, and at the end of the day, the better you get at understanding the needs and things of that nature, the more success you'll have. But that just simply takes time, transactions, understanding, conversations, networking, like, hey, what's important? What are the five things that are important for estate planning that people should have?
\n\nOne of the things if you have a 45, 50 year old client, the question would be hey, stuart, have your parents signed a beneficiary deed? Yet you know it'd be better if they had a trust, but it'd be better, it would be good if they had a will. But the very worst case scenario is they have a beneficiary deed and so often I talk to real estate agents they go what is that Right? It's like well, when the person dies, the deed goes directly to the descendant. It's not going through per bait or any of the rest of the stuff. So at the end of the day, the more you get involved in that, the more knowledgeable you get, the more value you bring to the client. It doesn't happen like day one hey, I'm going to focus like that and all of a sudden I'm going to be an expert at it.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and that being in it for the long term, the specialization and adding value, layering on the value, one level on top of the other, that is. I was listening to a podcast. I own an electric vehicle. I was listening to a podcast the other day.
\n\nThe guy was talking about going into one of the traditional manufacturers who had an electric range but none of the sales guys knew anything about it. So he was giving them the details because he was enthusiast and then had gone back with another friend two months later and the guys still didn't know the details like how big the battery was or what their average range was or whether how affected cold weather was. And he'd literally given them the information. But by not doubling down in that particular specialization or having an interest to double down in that specialization, the likelihood of you building a relationship with a senior where you are able to provide that extra value and given a broader perspective, versus just going in and like the line you use, kind of real estate realtor all over them, it just makes such a difference and I think if you're in any industry for the long term, having that interest and and respect for the clients to want to be able to provide that value really makes the difference. All right, yeah.
\n\nBob: Yeah, you know, I, about six years ago, I started looking at the market. The way things were happening is when these lawsuits first started and I said, you know, quite honestly, it's like this isn't going to end well. But the question you have to ask yourself really is why would a seller pay a buyer's agents? And you could say, well, the seller doesn't pay the buyer's agent, the listing agent does. The end of the day, the seller pays it. Right, the buyer pays it in the form of an elevated home price, just the way it works, and be honest with with that. But basically, what you're doing is saying, hey, I'm going to pay you 6% or I'm going to offer 6% and you're going to give 3% to a buyer's agent. Oh, yes, do it. By the way, that buyer's agent's job is very simple it's to negotiate the best price in terms for the buyer, which means it's going to take money out of your pocket at closing Right. When you explain that to a seller like that and I just go is there a reason you'd want to do it that way? And they say, well, that's the way it's done? It's like, well, what if it wasn't done that way?
\n\nAnd I started having these conversations with sellers and I created a system called Home Boss that was designed to answer that. Hey, the buyer's going to pay the commission. We have a way to do it where it's compliant with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It's all completely disclosed, so we don't have any lawsuit issues. It's if a buyer wanted to negotiate their commission with the agent, they could see it right up front what it was. They could do whatever they want. But at the end of the day, what it allowed us to do is it allowed us to take and get the seller the highest market value, and we can guarantee that because of the amount of traffic that we get and we can do it 14 days. We don't even put a lockbox on the house, right? Because biggest thing for sellers they hate the hassle and headaches of listing. Corelogic did a study about a year ago that said 77% of home buyers would be willing to give up 5% to 10% of their equity just to eliminate the normal process of selling a home. So if we could get price, which is a big deal, we could eliminate hassles and headaches and get it done fast. We could do that but at the same time be compliant with the courts, and so simply, all we do is our fee is 3% to sell home and if another agent brings the buyer, we add 3% to the price. It's all disclosed. It happens online and everybody knows what everybody else is offering. There's no highest and best blind offers.
\n\nAnd so, about six years ago, I seen that coming. My son was just getting licensed, he was 22. And it was like you know how's he going to walk into somebody's house and they're not going to go? Kid, how old are you and how many homes have you sold? And what we're able to do is create a process that we focused on the process and not the person. This is the process that allows you to get these things and we're able to drive traffic like our record open house was April 3 of 2023. We had 1,224 people in an open house.
\n\nThe question would be, how long would it take you if you put it in MLS and you let the normal process? How long would it take you to get 1200 people in an open house or to visit the listing? We did it in two days, which is how we can. You know how we know that we can guarantee that the maximum value for the property, and so it's just about looking outside the industry. Six years ago, I can tell you, people told me I was nuts. Realtors were like this is crazy. Why are you doing this? And suddenly now it's not so crazy anymore because we lost. And now one of the people I talked to five years ago actually had a team, was named in one of the lawsuits, called me up and said, my God, I should have listened to you.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, like you say, even with the lawsuits on the natural, the joy of the peers naturally signing on the side of the consumer because there's sympathy and it seems unfair and the big guy versus the little guy type approach, but just the natural tendency towards faster, more seamless transactions online. The whole COVID approach to forcing people to be more comfortable or making people be more comfortable pretty quickly with purely online transactions. I think that accelerated things by five years. But the situation we're in now that study saying people would be willing to pay, give up real money, just for ease of transaction, anything convenience trumps anything and as more and more people heading down that route, I think it's the agents who are adopting that or acknowledging it and then embracing it slightly will be the ones who are heading in another five years and not just fighting the nostalgia of how it was when they first got started.
\n\nBob: Yeah, 100%. So it's funny Many, many of my agents actually do listing presentations on zoom. They don't. They don't even go into the house anymore. Well, pre COVID, that like people didn't know what zoom was right, so you couldn't necessarily do that.
\n\nSo there are some things that came out of COVID that helped us as an industry, and one of my agents literally just sold his house, now travels around the country, has a I call it a rockstar tour bus and he takes his listings via zoom traveling across the country and he has a buyer's team that does the open houses form. He's traveling the country and he takes two to three listings a week traveling in a you know, a luxury RV, a tour bus, whatever you want to call it. And the whole paradigm has changed because of COVID and yet people will still say no, people won't do that. And it's like my answer is well, please don't tell all my agents who are doing that, because it works pretty darn good. Right, and you got to change your paradigm and you have to start looking at how the world's going to change and what you can do to be in front of it.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, you know everything with AI.
\n\nBob: Now it's. You know, is AI going to replace a real estate agent? No, but boy, can it take care of some of your tasks and things like. Hey, I have a podcast. If you list your last podcast and guess what, I had it on AI. It used to take three hours. I used to have a firm that did it for me and everything else and, you know, paid a few hundred dollars a month to do that and Literally I uploaded into an AI system and three minutes later I have a perfectly edited video and podcast.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah that that's speeding up of the task related things. When you look at the real estate industry across the board, how many things are slowed down by Old or legacy ways of doing things, or because that's the way it's always done, or the the Reducing need to do things with face-to-face contact, the whole title side of the business that it just I I'm surprised at that still exists and it really.
\n\nBob: Real estate is a very College, traditional business, if you will. They still teach agents the same thing that they've been teaching for the last 50 or 60 years. And my thing is, I have a corporate background and you know my answer is hey, if I ran a corporation and 87% of my employees washed out in the first two years Like we'd be firing somebody right. Yet in the real estate industry that's what we do and it's like, well, that's just how it works. It's a tough business. Well, no, what if we started teaching them different things to be more effective?
\n\nYeah and Changing the way that they're trained, instead of just throwing them out to the wolves and go door knock. You know, go knock on doors.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think that expectation that it's a personal business and you can't replace the human element of it is true to the point of the Relationships and making sure that the client feels like you've, you're their trusted partner, but all of the ancillary things around it, those are the things that will go quickly and You're right. Speeding up the process, changing the training to be more effective in 2023 and beyond, means that they can double down on that human element and make sure that that's the piece that is replaceable by machines, but streamlining everything else, taking away the headache that that does wash out so many of the people.
\n\nBob: It's what what I actually teach is is pretty simple Process. The only job that you have each day is to talk to 10 potential sellers or 10 People who could refer you to sellers. The only job you get paid for is to talk to people. There's a real estate agent or mortgage person. The only thing we actually get paid for is to get a listing agreement signed or a buyer broker agreement signed the only thing we get paid to do. Everything else can be clerical for lack of, you know, a description. So if you want to maximize the amount of money you make, well, it's pretty simple Just talk to 10 people a day and then, if you can take the 10 people a day and get better at your value branding, your value Proposition, instead of talking to like, let's say, the average realtor has to talk to a hundred people to get one listing Right.
\n\nThey get talked to ten to get into, or they talked to a hundred to get ten appointments. Then they list one, two, whatever the number is. Well, what if all we had to do is talk to ten to get six or seven listings Right? So it isn't that we have to talk to more people, because I hear that all the time. Real estate's a numbers game. To some level that could be true, but it's actually a skills game. Our job needs to be I could. If I can talk to less people to get more signatures, I'll make more money in less time.
\n\nRight and so one of my coaching tenants is I don't want our people working more than 40 hours a week, because then you're working. If you're working 80 hours a week, you're not working smart, you're working hard. Let's work smart, improve our skills and what we're saying to people and what we talk to people about, and that's why I don't. I don't love scripts. Scripts because they become Something that's red and we eliminate all tonality, all speed, pace, things like that. As a natural, you know, my natural tone is talk fast and like I dump a lot of stuff out, but if you actually hear me talk to somebody in a sales situation, I'm actually very slow, I'm contemplative. Right, it's all that tonality that comes into it. Why aren't we teaching that in the real estate business and saying here's a script. Right, you see it all over Facebook all the time. Hey, who wants my physboscripts or who wants this script? The script itself is there's nothing new out there. The question is, what's your skill level In that scripting, in talking to people?
\n\nStuart: right, exactly, it's the taking, the, the, the, the tool in the idea and tailing it for your particular Use case and your personality and actually internalizing it as well. It's not just reading as you say off a page and it's the words, their magic. It's the fact that you're able to Internalize and use those words in a real conversation with a real person and and kind of make that connection and show the value so that they take that decision and exactly podcast there as well.
\n\nThis idea of bringing the ideas together into a book and how you plan on using the book to get in front of the people who you Can best help. Was that an idea that was pretty crystal clear, when you mind before you started, or have the ideas kind of formalized as you've kind of made the move to bring it together?
\n\nBob: I'm pretty good at making a decision and then figuring out all the different ways that I can. You know the different tentacles that go out to to do that. But no, I went into it with the idea that it's it's simply a Promotional tool, if you will, and I don't like to use the word promotional, but part of my mission is that I want to start teaching agents and lenders how to financially impact their clients. And I can't do that one one real estate agent time and I speak on stages and I do different things, but at the end of the day, a book gets it out there where they maybe they want to start to interact and go. Well, this kind of makes sense. And what might the next step be? Well, we're turning that into podcasts, which will turn it into videos, which will turn it into blog posts, which will turn it into content, which will turn it into reels and shorts and all those things. So, yeah, there's kind of a master plan to how that all will work, but part of it is to let people experience really agents and lenders experience, say that content and see if it makes sense to them.
\n\nMy brand of things are the way that I think may not be. You know, it's not for everybody, right? Somebody wants to be a value brand. No, no, no, it's all about me and I want to be. Everything is about how wonderful I am. They're probably not going to relate well to what I talk about and that's okay.
\n\nStuart: That idea that the book's not the product, the conversation from the book is the product and the matching of your approach with the ultimate conversation you're going to have with people, because the business model isn't sell a book and make money from a book.
\n\nThe business model is give a book away, start that conversation and eventually talk to someone one on one. And if there is that consistency of what they've read or what they skimmed, and then they're having the conversation with you and the conversation you're having with them, that congruency then leads to the next step, so much better than I think. People sometimes want to write in a way that doesn't reflect them or want to include content that isn't necessarily aligned with their mission or their message, and it misses the opportunity because the, as I said, the book isn't the product. We're not looking at book sales. It's the ability to start a conversation with someone who can then eventually become a client. And if they're married up, then not that we're necessarily trying to sift and sort as the primary purpose of it, but if it's just some amount of selecting and really help those people who it's a yes for take that next step, then that's the perfect use case for it.
\n\nBob: And that is that. That was the entire goal. This was never about like selling a book and making money with the book. It's like, hey, let people experience what it is that I do, and in the book I give them the links. They can attend classes. I teach classes every Wednesday so they can come and experience that. They can go to our website, real estate asset advisorsorg. They can watch replays of those classes, right, and we're not selling anything at the class.
\n\nIf you want to hear what I'm teaching and that resonates with you. That's how we'll attract clients that are dedicated to the same mission that I'm on, which is impacting your client's life financially. And you know, again, if you think about it, real estate is the number one source of wealth. For everybody in the United States, or at least who owns it, it's a number one source of wealth, and yet this is the business we're in and we don't do anything that actually helps teach people how to utilize it and leverage it to build wealth. Well, that's really what our value is opening a door, writing a contract, and you can get anybody to do that, and so my message will go out in all these different arenas and then I'll let them experience that and if it resonates with them, great.
\n\nAnd you know, even in the book I give them access. They can schedule a call with me. I don't care, they don't have to be a client. I'll schedule a call with somebody and talk to them about their business and see if it resonates and if it makes sense for us to work together, great. If it doesn't, great. If I can impart some knowledge or you can learn something from going to the class, is great. So it's really just an invitation to say, hey, experience this content and if any of it resonates and you need help you know I have a plan for that.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think it's the perfect utilization of it because you've got a framework that exists already. You've got the tools to help people. There's an easy model that people can understand it and imagine for themselves how to put it into practice for their business. And then there's a very straightforward and simple next step. Whether you're really committed and want to jump in with a call to see how it works for you, or whether you just want to dip your toe in the water a little bit more and attend some of the classes, and this bringing together of all of those elements that you have into a holistic approach to kind of move that conversation forward I think it's a perfect implementation of it.
\n\nBob: Well see how it works out, but I think it is and it's a way to get the message out and it'll resonate with some not all, but it's the ones that it resonates with. That I'm interested in talking to.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and you can help them and they can get the best from you in that experience. That transaction 100%. Time goes fast, as always on these calls, If you're going to check back in a little bit down the track and get some feedback on what the feedback from people who have been through that particular funnel so come from not having heard from you before to seeing something about the book, to joining the program and taking it further. I think that'd be really interesting for people. I want to make sure that people can access you and make sure that they can follow up and find out more. So where's the best place for people to go if they want to check out both the book and what you do?
\n\nBob: Probably the easiest place is to go to www. If you list you lastcom, perfect.
\n\nAnd so you can connect to the podcast, you can register for the classes, you can schedule a call. You can download. Right now I've got a what did I call it? A pre-editor version. So the books are being printed as we speak and the digital will be ready and I'll call it a week or two, but in the meantime we've got a pre-digital version that somebody could download and go from there. So it's pretty simple, because if you list you last and wwwifulistulastcom and that'll connect you with everything that we do, Fantastic.
\n\nStuart: Well, we'll put links in the show notes. So if people are listening on the podcast play, it will be in the show notes there or on the website. Obviously, it will be just below the video here. That before we wrap, actually that pre-edited, pre-live version idea. I think we were talking to someone I can't remember who it was a couple of months ago who had sent out a kind of like a slightly earlier version which was pretty much complete, but it just what didn't have all of the polish around it, had sent it out to their existing list and was using it as kind of like a referral interest generating tool, but positioned in the way of hey, we've worked together or you're in my world already. I really want to give you, like behind the scenes, insights into what's happening and then if you want to sign up or anyone you know wants to sign up for the final version, then head over here.
\n\nAnd they generated quite a bit of excitement, not in some artificial presale list or best seller list or anything like that, just an authentic hey, we've worked together. I just wanted to share the behind the scenes and keep you up to date on what's going. That idea is fantastic and I think it just adds to the point you were making about building the value and the human element. That can't be AI to work. Is that one-on-one connection and doing things like that, the slightly more behind the scenes, or the sharing, the, the, the recipe, as things are being made? I think that just helps add that, that real connection to people, great idea.
\n\nBob: Yeah, We've given away. We've had a lot of people download the book already. This isn't about being an Amazon best seller or anything else. It's about getting a message out, finding a group of people that are committed to the same things, because when we do that, that's how I can. That's I personally can have the biggest impact. I could sit there and scream in the mountain top about how to take and utilize a real estate to build your personal net worth and things like that. Or I could have thousands of real estate agents that I teach how to do it and then they go out and do it. I can have a much bigger impact that way. So it starts with a, a simple book, and we'll move it from there.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's exciting. There's so much opportunity here to bring it all together and we really should hook back up in a few months time and just give it an update on on how it's going Right. Well, thanks so much for your time. I know this is a busy week in the lead up to Christmas. We appreciate you taking some time and my pleasure from it.
\n\nBob: No, my pleasure. Thanks so much.
\n\nStuart: Okay, well, we'll make sure that, as I say, the links are in the podcast player and in the just below the video on the website here. Thanks everyone for listening. This show is going to be the last one for Christmas, I think, so I hope everyone has a fantastic holiday. We'll push another shout next week and then, bob, like I say thanks for your time and we'll catch up with everyone soon.
\n\nBob: Perfect Thanks for your pleasure. Bye.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we caught up with Bob Mangold to talk about how his book '_If You List, You Last_' is working to start conversations with realtors and mortgage brokers. \r\n\r\nBob's business is helping those in an industry swamped with 'training' opportunities by working with them to achieve tangible outcome. \r\n\r\nHis book is the perfect way to engage one of his key audiences, realtors, by identifying 4 simple steps they can take to improve their listing business.\r\n\r\nWe talk about how a book helps cut through the noise of other trainers to identify those people who resonate with his message and ultimatley become great clients.\r\n\r\nYour book becomes an asset you can use across many channels as the tool that amplifies work you're doing to reach new people.","date_published":"2023-12-22T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/38880d31-aa96-4cd6-9adc-be178b6a1eb7.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31332539,"duration_in_seconds":2600}]},{"id":"632a7d67-eb84-4be2-a6c1-dc275deb4615","title":"Ep155: Holistic and Stylish Connections with Kara Stewart","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/155","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kara Stewart, a seasoned financial advisor and author of 'Put Power in Your Purse', a holistic, stylish guide to retirement planning.\n\nKara shares her journey from corporate finance to running a successful independent practice. A change initially forced on her through layoffs, but after reviewing her options, she decided that starting her own firm was the best path to helping those she truly wanted to help.\n\nShe shares insights into her pioneering approach to empowering women through financial planning and education. A path started by sharing other resources but developed into her own approach, framework, and more recently, her new book.\n\nIdentifying a target audience allows you to create a message and program that speaks specifically to their needs. Even if you work with a broader group or can help many people, treating your book as a tool for a specific campaign is the best way to start a conversation with a perfect prospect and plan their journey to working with you.\n\nI love how Kara distinguishes herself in a competitive industry, and her approach is one that can be applied to many different industries.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\nKara shares her career journey from corporate finance to establishing her own independent practice, focusing on empowering women in their financial lives.\nWe discuss the complex yet vital subject of retirement planning, particularly for women, highlighting the necessity for women to be educated and confident in handling their financial futures.\nKara simplifies the often complex financial language and explains different types of retirement accounts and potential tax implications.\nWe explore the breadth of services offered by Kara and the importance of collaborating with other professionals in the industry for a holistic approach to financial planning.\nKara shares how her book, \"Power of Zero,\" serves as an educational tool for her clients and also as a unique marketing tool to distinguish herself in a highly competitive industry.\nWe delve into the importance of building trust and adding value to clients, both potential and existing, in the financial planning industry.\nKara shares her approach of taking comprehensive information from clients upfront to understand their overall financial history and prescribe appropriate financial plans.\nWe discuss the significance of tax diversification and efficient distribution of assets during clients' lifetimes, improving their cash flow and ensuring the assets go to their families and not to the IRS.\nWe highlight the multiple benefits of collaboration in the financial planning industry, with Kara giving examples of working with CPA firms and other financial advisors to provide the best solutions for clients.\nKara shares her experience of using books as a powerful marketing tool for her business, helping to establish credibility, attract clients, and build long-term relationships.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nKara Stewart - LinkedIn\nFocus Strategic Solutions\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/155\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Everyone. Welcome back to the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today joined by Kara Stewart. Kara, how are you doing? Excellent, how are you Fantastic, very good, thank you. Thanks for making time to do this, say I'm excited to dive in and share with the audience a little bit more about what you do and the book that you wrote. One of the things we talk about a lot is kind of dialing in this niche of the audience that you really wanna talk to. I think yours is a great example of doing exactly that. Why don't we start with a bit of background share with the audience where you are, what you do, and then we can kind of go from there? \n\nKara: Absolutely well. Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here today, Gosh. I've been in practice for 23 years. My career spans over Wells Fargo Bank, merrill Lynch, I was a market maker of community bank stocks, such as Bank of Petaluma, exchange, bank, sonoma National, which is now UMQUA, and then I spent a decade at Ventrio Insurance Brokerage as the assistant vice president and manager of the Financial Service Division, and then, in 2009, they actually eliminated my department and literally overnight, I found myself jobless and, of course, being married with a house and two babies. It was very scary and I decided well, what if I started my own practice? What if I went independent? And here, 13 years later, I am thriving, not just nearly surviving. \n\nStuart: It goes fast. \n\nI always kind of it does it sure does A little bit scared. When I started in the math, people started talking about 2008-09. So I was on the IT side of financial services at the time and our department went from 40 people down to 20 and I was still there, fortunately, but you think that was just yesterday, but it was a little bit more than yesterday In that timeframe. Then there was a necessity in going independent. Obviously, it's still around, so there's no regrets of having taken that choice. But the apprehension or the fear factor of being independent versus trying to find another job was it an easy choice to make or was it necessities? The mother invention and that was the other person. \n\nKara: Yes and no. So I did have about eight different job offers within 24 hours of being laid off. So that was the good news. And so, again, thinking about, what if I went independent? What would that look like? And if, for some reason it didn't work, I had all these fallback positions. So I kind of went into it with the intention of hopefully it works well. Right, and here we are 13 years later. But again, if it doesn't, then I know that I am marketable and of value. And at that time, of course, I used to say how could you right? Like I felt very hurt and that was a hard time in my life. But now I say thank you, because have I not been pushed from the nest? I wouldn't have realized these beautiful wings. \n\nStuart: Right and it gives you some opportunity to deal with the people who you prefer to deal with. We were talking with someone a few weeks ago who, again similar situation, came from a corporate background, but their perspective was very much. It was not burn insurance, not quite the right word but there was a certainly a male element to it of getting people in 10 minutes dealing with them. Move on to the next client. There wasn't really any tailored asset management or real holistic financial planning. I guess that's a big difference in the work that you've gone down the clients you deal with, because you can give that additional time and focus on those individuals. \n\nKara: That's absolutely right. So in fact, the very thing that I did when I immediately went independent was to really evaluate the model right. And working for Wells Fargo and Merrill Lynch, what I didn't like is that they employed quotas on their employees for certain product areas and so I would see sometimes coworkers not necessarily doing the right thing for the client because that then meant that they then got through their quota and extra bonus et cetera. So when I went independent, the very first thing I did was not employ that model. So most financial advisors charge on UM or assets under management. So you can imagine they wanna manage all your assets right when sometimes that's not appropriate Sometimes. \n\nAnd the holistic approach is really true in my practice in that I look at mortgage positions, I looked at trust planning, I look at insurance policies all the things that are part and tax planning. I mean that's a big difference between myself and a normal, traditional financial advisor is that I look at tax returns and I can analyze them, because I and I often will say if someone has an existing financial advisor and if they're not asking for your tax returns, that's like going to the doctor and having the doctor prescribe a remedy without looking at your medical record. That's how important that piece is of the overall puzzle, and so my approach is extremely different, very independent and, again, very holistic. \n\nStuart: So the audience that you've got, are they locally, within a geographic area, or statewide or nationwide? \n\nKara: I can work nationwide. In fact, I'm the nationwide financial advisor for charitable foundation. However, most of my clients are local. I am in Windsor, california, actually in the heart of Windsor Town Green, which is an area that we focus a lot on community I do, I give back all the time with not only my community but with first responders, doctors, dentists, police, firefighters, et cetera. But then also I have a very, very deep passion for empowering women. \n\nStuart: And that actually is probably a great pivot into the book. So the book itself gives a little background into what brought you to, I guess, what brought you to writing it and then just dive into a little bit more on that group of people. It seems like an obvious question, but the idea to double down on the empowering women and helping that, if it's not too obvious, what made you want to focus on that group particularly? \n\nKara: Sure, well, and I want to make sure it's very clear, I do work with men. In fact, most of my clients are men, and that's kind of what triggered this or ignited this passion was realizing that most women don't know what they don't know, and, in fact, there was a period of one year where I had three females that came to me this couple of years ago, three females that came to me having losing their husbands unexpectedly and prematurely, and all of which had no idea what they had or didn't have or should have or could have, and so it kind of united this movement almost to where I wanted to put power in the purse and empower women with information, and I started gifting a book called the Power of Zero right after our 2017 wildfires, because we as a community some of it's I mean my own sister lost her house where I got married was gone. Several clients lost their homes I actually had a client pass away in the fire so it was a significant, impactful event, indirectly or directly, and so I started gifting this book, power of Zero, by David McKnight, and I've gifted that probably to 500 families by now, just trying to leave with education and let them just understand what it is that they should have or could have it again, that the ideas are not something you'll get from the Wells Fargo or Maryland or Ever Jones or Fidelity, because it speaks to the tax planning piece of financial planning. And so after gifting that book, I thought you know, gosh, I'm really kind of giving David McKnight all this. You know, cred. And so I collaborated with three industry professionals on a book called the Holistic Retirement Plan, and that's as current as the pandemic. It talks about very relative issues that we face globally and locally. \n\nAnd then from there it was like but what if I wrote my solely authored book, which has been a goal of mine for many years? I've always loved writing. I could, when my kids were little, I could, like whip up a poem as their birthday invitation, literally within a matter of minutes. I enjoy writing and I'm very not to, you know, toot my own horn, but I'm very creative in the way I can just literally rattle off something and comes off in a way like it seems like it took me a long time to prepare, but no, it's just how I speak and how I think. And so putting that to paper and really trying to empower women with education was truly what made me want to write this book. As a native of Sonoma County, my reputation needs more to me than anything, and so, again, just trying to lead with that integrity and the authenticity is truly what the book is all about. \n\nStuart: And that's just as you started there. That was a great point because you were mentioning that you work with men and maybe even the majority of clients. That is a great talking point. Briefly, because oftentimes people have a skesities maybe not quite the right word, but they don't view the book as a campaign specific asset. They're looking at it in a traditional sense and thinking that a book needs to be this very broad thing, like you would say in a bookshelf, in a store, in the traditional sense of covering all of the elements, as opposed to thinking about the real benefits, particularly as business owners, of having a campaign specific approach. So just because this particular book is targeting this group absolutely not the case that you're excluding or not working with the other people it's just for this particular activity, this is the target audience and we're trying to write something that's as specific and useful to that group. \n\nAgain, nothing against or excluding the other people, but thinking about it as a campaign specific thing. I think it makes the whole process so much more straightforward, particularly if people aren't in your position of finding it easy or easier to write and enjoying it. If people are seeing this is an outcome that I want, but actually I'm a little bit daunted or not enthusiastic about the process. Thinking about it as a campaign specific thing which narrows down the scope, targets the audience, focuses the attention a little bit more into what's to include or not include makes it so much easier, but it was. \n\nI took the point as you were saying, that it's definitely not that people are writing the book that is comprehensively saying only what they do. It's that we're trying to start a specific type of conversation and again there's many other things going on. The idea of what to include and what not to include then. So with having the target audience is being relatively dialed in and making that a little bit easier to align the content with the people. What was the thought process around what to include and what not to include, like the journey from someone seeing the book and being given the book three to a quarter action on the back? Talk us through a little bit about that process of you. Wanted to make sure that people knew. \n\nKara: Right? \n\nWell, what I have been starting now that I have this office space in the Winsor Town Green, is I have a quarterly event called Women, wisdom and Wealth, and it's often at a winery, just because of the venue needs to be much larger. In fact, I just did my quarterly event last Wednesday and there was 45 women in attendance. So it speaks to the need for the information and I focus on health and wealth, and so obviously I speak to the wealth piece of it, but I also say that you have really nothing if you don't have your health, and so I invite what I call wellness warriors in to co-present with me, and that looks different depending on the quarter, but, for example, we talk about stress management and hormones and aging and all the things that we as women do need to understand and educate, and really, just once you talk about the things that you're dealing with on a personal, professional basis, you realize you're not alone, right? So the goal again is to empower women, surround them with other empowered women In fact, I point the phrase empowered women in power women but then also just simply focus on our two greatest assets. So I started with those events and again, kind of it was a process kind of that led me to wanting to produce this book, and it's the subtitles called how to have a stylish and holistic retirement plan a confident woman's guide. \n\nSo again, it's to infuse confidence in a woman that they know, at the end of the day, that they're going to be okay. Right, like when I looked at my surviving spouse and said, from a financial perspective, anyway, right, emotionally, physically, I understand you're struggling, but financially you're going to be okay. And we planned for, obviously, a long, healthy life. That's obviously the ultimate goal. But we've also put in, you know parameters, you know umbrellas, if you will, if we had compromise, compromised living or needing some former long-term care or ultimately, upon your demise, to your beneficiaries or to your loved ones. So really it's just to empower women with the education. In fact, often I open up those workshops by saying if you don't have a man, you need to have a plan, and if you have a man, be part of the plan, have a voice and know what it is that you do have or don't have. \n\nAnd again, no judgment. That's the other thing I often will hear is I might be too young or I might be too old. And no, that's not the case. Neither is true. You know when's the best time to plan a tree, of course 20 years ago. When's the next best time? Today? My youngest client is 20. My oldest client is 103. So and clients come to me too A lot of times. I know them because, again, I'm a native and there's zero judgment of anything. What you have thus far, there's all that we can solve for, is what we know today, and then we make plans and then just accordingly, as life ebbs and flows, and so and of course I always maintain that most confidentiality I let people know. I mean because, again, we are in a small town and I just say you know, it's just like your doctor. I use that analogy often because some people can relate to doctors all the time, just like they are held to the same confidentiality perspective requirements as well that idea of the no judgment. \n\nStuart: It was interesting. Back in a previous career I did some financial what do we call it? So it's part of their FSA, which is the UK's equivalent, the financial regulator. So I was on the IT side, not on the enforcement side or the policy side, but the organisation would go out to other organisations and do education events just around financial literacy and as someone who'd been in the business for 20 years and just had a general interest in it, it seemed like a very basic introduction, which was the point of it. But it was surprising. I maybe did 10 or 12 of these. \n\nIt was surprising every time that the language, which seemed very superficial and basic to us, was complicated and confusing to other people and, I think, just the nature of the industry, either intentionally or unintentionally. Some of the language that's used around financial products is almost intentionally confusing Things, concepts, that are relatively straightforward to understand if you just use plain English. Once you start using the English, the industry language, it makes it more complicated. And then, of course, like you say, you add in all of this baggage and judgment and pressure and fear and perception that there's a lack of education or people feeling stupid about it. It's such a disservice to if people aren't introduced to the conversations that you're having with them. That really helps them understand. Now is the best time to do something about it, no matter where you are, and the steps that you can take can be relatively straightforward. So did you find a similar thing? It's that once you start bridging that gap and making people feel better about the questions that they're asking, did that really start to accelerate the conversations? Yeah, absolutely. \n\nKara: In fact, I've been asked and would love to speak to the high schools and colleges because nobody is teaching our young adults about financial planning. And I talk and I really do to your point. Try to dumb it down and talk in layman terms about financial planning. So when we talk about the coveted retirement account being the 401k and IRA and the difference obviously is one's in player, sponsored, and one's not, and we have been taught to believe that is where we should be putting our retirement dollars. But if you really think about it and digest it and I did this whole video talking about the minus recalls of the buckets in wine country I call it the wine glasses but tax, now tax free, and then tax deferred and what the differences are. So a 401k and IRA is like kicking the can down the road in terms of taxation and you're adding money to the can as you go and at the end of the road I'll say I'm holding out his hand and say, well, I didn't charge you on a dollar, but now I'm charging you on $100. And so clients seem to resonate with that. They understand. And then, of course, taxes by percentage are going up. Right, we're going to sunset in 2020, the Trump tax laws are going away. Plus, we added $14 trillion to our national debt with the pandemic and the stimulus packages, and then further we've got a problem with our social security funding, all the baby boomers pulling on those benefits. Where is that going to come from? And then you know, we're also approaching election year, so taxes by percentage are going up. \n\nSo one of my famous examples as a client who came to me having quite a bit in our 401k, thinking she was doing the right thing by maximizing her contribution. So I simply asked her well, what's your company match? And she said dollar for dollar, up to 4%. She was contributing 15. So I said, well, let's take the 11% you're already contributing and let's repurpose it to a tax-free strategy. That's not a Roth, but it does grow tax-free and distributes tax-free. But unlike a Roth, it doesn't have income limits, contribution restrictions and, most importantly, accessibility. You can access it prior to $259.5. And it was going to change her retirement income by $7 million just by repurposing what she was already saving. So it's just those kinds of conversations you're not going to get at Wells Fargo Bank or Merrill Lynch or Ever Jumps, because the traditional buckets and the cookie cutter mold. \n\nStuart: people almost then check the box I'm doing something, someone else is telling me it's the thing to do. I've got that confident and comfortable feeling that it's all being taken care of. But unless it's actually case by case addressed in a with an expert, someone that can see the holistic picture, that difference is astronomical, and even more so over the long term. If you get to talk to people early, so having conversations with kids out of school, ours, the youngest is 14 and the oldest is 25. So the middle ones, as they're just going into the workplace out of school, saying to them, just start small, start doing something, and the benefit of the long timeframe can really account for there's not almost no bad decision that you can make, can just start with something and then dial it in over the years. It's quite a difference. \n\nKara: And that speaks to my approach. So my process includes gathering information on the front end and, again, different than a CPA, where output equals input they're driving a car through the rearview mirror, I'm looking at the windshield. How do we appropriately change your situation, the input to positively impact the output? So I do ask for a lot of information on the front end because, again, just like your doctor, I need to know about your overall financial history to be able to appropriately prescribe. And what I then do is show clients okay, this is your status quo. If you keep doing what you're doing, this is what your future self looks like. And are you on track to meet, exceed or fall short of your goals? And even if you're on track to meet or exceed, I can say with the almost 100% confidence I can still improve upon those results by the planning that I do. And so and I've created such a name for myself now that actually CPA firms are reaching out to me to ask them to help them with their text planning for their clients. \n\nStuart: Fantastic and actually that's a great subject as well in this idea of kind of complimentary non-competing businesses the fact that as you're out there talking to your audience, there are other firms out there with their audience and where it crosses over huge opportunity to kind of get a synergistic result of more than the individual parts Right. A good friend owns an ICDISC tax planning firm which is so niche I mean you wouldn't as outside you wouldn't imagine that there was a dedicated business for it. But their benefit of being specialists in that area means that they can work in a non-threatening way with CPAs because they're just focused on their area. I imagine that's the same for you. Specializing in this approach, which is something different than a number of them try to offer that complimentary service. Really kind of ties in well. Do you see that happen quite often. \n\nKara: Well, you know, when I actually named my company Focus Strategic Solutions, that was very intentional. Focus is a pun I use all the time. You know. Get focus, let's focus on your future self. And actually it is an acronym that stands for various things, but strategic is referring to the trust advisor team, right? So in an ideal world I'd actually speak with their clients CPA, attorney, other financial advisors, insurance agents, estate plan attorneys, etc. Because as a team we can really support our clients, you know, at the utmost ability to create what it is we're trying to accomplish. So that's strategic. And then solutions means there's one side that does not fit all and, depending on what the clients unique goals and objectives are, there's multiple different options, right? So Focus Strategic Solutions is the name of my firm, and again, that's very intentional, and one size does not fit all. So I come to, you know, clients come to me and I don't know necessarily what I'm going to be offering them until I dive down deep into what it is that they're all suddenly trying to achieve. \n\nStuart: The breadth of services that you can offer. Do you hit a point where you need to reach out to other partners to provide additional services that are out with scope of what you do, or is the majority of what you do in scope of the nature of the things that they might need? That kind of overlap as well as incoming is outgoing as well. \n\nKara: Sure, well, I do ask on the front end who those other professionals are, and then I ask if those relationships are working. And so I'm very respectful. If the relationship is thriving and they are happy with that person and their service and the results, then I want to collaborate with them on the client's behalf. If they're not happy, for whatever reason, then I do have resources that I can refer them to and then together we can work for that client. So, again, if I don't know them, I reach out and introduce myself that we've now have a mutual client and then, of course, if they're not happy, then I've got a referral source and a network of other you know professionals I can refer a client to. \n\nStuart: Again, come back to a holistic approach. It's so much more beneficial. I really like the doctor's analogy that you use of saying that if you are trying to sort out a medical problem, you really want the doctor to know absolutely everything. So there's no ambiguity in the same situation here. Looking at the book itself, then, so we've talked about the use case of physically giving it to people. I'm guessing that some of that is along with the events, what going into the project, what other ways? Were you thinking about using it at the end? Or were you thinking about using it at the end? Or did you just want to get, want it to get created? \n\nKara: No, I am very much have thoughts on how I'm going to use it. I do lead with that and try to get clients. Again, I gifted this book, power of Zero, my example there was 500 to 500 people. Now did all of those clients or all those people become clients? No, some people just simply want the book because they want the book. Some people want the book for the information and they may take that to their existing advisor, all of which is okay. And then, of course, some people have become clients, and not only that, but raging fans. \n\nSo my goal is to gift the book, just similar than I have in the past, and that's to even perfect strangers. But then also at the events. And then also I'm going to be offering vouchers of free time, like free consultations, to accompany the book that my clients can give to their centers of influences, their friends, their family, their colleagues, etc. Just again to empower them with information. And if they become a client, then great. If they don't become a client, then great. I just want people to know, to understand and to have their B education about financial planning, because there simply just isn't at this moment. \n\nStuart: Right and again, that's another benefit of it being so tailored. It's very obvious who the audience is. Again, for this specific campaign, it's not here's a book of general financial advice. It's here's specifically a book to empower other women, and the clients you have that fall into that category almost certainly know of other people who would benefit from it. The idea of those orchestrated referrals and the so many opportunities, once it exists, to say to people, even on calendar based things, so tax return time or end of year or new year's resolutions, or April 15th deadline, the extended deadline, all of these things in the calendar where it makes people think about their financial planning elements, the fact that you can reach back out to the list and say, oh, by the way, if you have anyone else struggling, here's a copy of the book that you can give to them, being able to orchestrate it in a friendly way. It's leading with the information, leading with value first. \n\nKara: Right, and that's important. And again, another differentiator, because oftentimes financial advisors have specific minimum net worth that they require a prospect to have in order to even talk to them. Again, different than what I do, I help literally anybody, and the reason for that is twofold. One is I was once getting started having a family, buying a house. I wish somebody would have held my hand at that time. \n\nBut then two, you never know who they know, and one of my largest excuse me, one of my smallest accounts, that I was helping her with debt management and expense budgeting and all the things refer me to one of my largest accounts. So again, just do the right thing, even when nobody's watching has served me very well, personally and professionally. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that idea. I think that would serve a lot of people very well across the whole board. It's interesting as well, this idea that you don't know. I mean those people. \n\nWe've worked with, people who were another financial planning company up around Detroit. So they, how many years ago would it be 15, maybe 20 years ago? We very much in the college planning, college financing type world, so they had a not small list of people who they'd worked with all of those years ago. But now those same people they're completely out of that audience group. They're not in college planning anymore but they're moving towards the perfect time, towards retirement planning, because they were in their 30s 20 years ago. Now they're in their 50s. So that same audience group has maintained some level of relationship over that longer period, not really from a client perspective but just from a kind of slow burn, reach out, keep in touch type of campaign. \n\nBut now we've got the opportunity to reignite some of those people with something that's more timely and useful and relevant for them in the moment, from the book itself then. So we've got a way of reaching out to people who you don't know. Just by offering the book and having out there you've got relationships or referrals from people who you do know, making that warm connection. There's opportunities for all of their speaking, and the social media kind of relate to the book and have that as the next step. Once someone reads and consumes the book, what's the best next step for them to take? Once they've read something and there's something there, what's the next step that you have for them to? I don't even want to say get started, but kind of take the next step towards more of a conversation. \n\nKara: To get focused. You mean? Well, first off, I wanted to say that the book is not a prerequisite to any meeting, right? So I do have clients that say, well gosh, give me a book, I will never pick it up. So I want to just flush that out. That's not something. That's not a requirement that one reads the book. But the next step should you choose to read it or not would be to schedule what I call and explore one conversation. \n\nThat is a completely preliminary 30 minute phone call that I kind of coin like. It's like a speed date, right, you're interviewing me, I'm interviewing you. Let's first find out do we have alignment philosophically and do we want to continue and have that next date? Right? And so if we agree, both agree, to proceed, then the next step looks that I then ask for information, again looking at, I've got a questionnaire that I asked them to complete, just again similar to a medical questionnaire, and then together I with my team, I put together that status, close situation, and then I invite them into the office and of course, if they're not local, then I assume just works just fine, because I want to share my screen and I go through all my input so they can see, this is what you told me on the questionnaire, right, this is what you, these are your assets, this is your age, this is what you've been doing thus far and this is what that looks like. And then I give them my proposal and how much greater that can then yield. \n\nThe other objection I often get with clients may or prospects, excuse me, may say well, I already have an existing financial advisor and my objection to that is I'm not surprised most successful people do. But just like when you go to your doctor and your primary care physician gave you a terminal illness, would you seek an opinion from a specialist? And likewise, you know, my. My approach is so very different than normal financial advisors because I focus not only on asset allocation, which is important, but on tax diversification, which I would argue is almost more important. Also, on, you know, most advisors look at accumulation, which again very important. How do we get up the mountain? But are they like poised and ready to get you down the mountain in terms of distribution? You know I'm looking at efficiencies with distribution. How do we get your assets back to you during your lifetime with as least taxation as possible, to improve cash flow and ultimately to your family and not to MPH. \n\nStuart: The family point is a good one there as well, because being having an established footprint within a local area, the fact that you do know these people and have a long term relationship with them, I mean it. Just all of those elements reinforce. Not that it's essential in this day and age I mean we're talking on opposite sides of the country at the moment, so not that it's essential but there's definitely a continuity of care to keep the medical analogy going, there's a continuity of care to those people and their families and I think, looking at it in that holistic way, but anyone who's got an interest in doing more than just a cursory check in the box and putting some money in a pool of, in a bucket of something, then that must really add to the connection that you have with people and just reinforce the fact that you're in it for the long term, just like they are. \n\nKara: That's true. In fact, I always say people say you name Kara or Kara, and I'm like you care about me, I care about you. So that's a good, easy way to remember it, because, it's true, I've been in practice for over two decades, so I certainly feel like I have expertise. However, having said that, I still have a coach and I think that's important to note as well, because even professional athletes have coaches and so I again have the expertise behind me. \n\nBut yet I am somewhat young still, and I'm going to be around long term for my clients to exercise the plans that we're putting in place, which is important, and so every year at a minimum, I review the existing plan and decide like is it on track to still meet your current needs, or are you playing a trip around the world, or do you have a wedding you're going to be funding, or is something changing in your life to the better, or hopefully not the worst? But that happens, life happens, and so we need to adjust the plan accordingly, and so my relationship is long term, hence the speed date right. I want to make sure that I am enjoying this relationship as well, because it's going to be for the long term. \n\nStuart: And brings us back to early on in the conversation when we were saying that's the opposite of being in the traditional large business sense of sometimes you don't really get the choice of who you work with. You just have to. You've got a roster of clients that you're working through, okay. So, with all that in mind, and one question I'd like to wrap up with and then we'll make sure that we give people links so they can get in touch with you and see more about what you're doing but the process of using books in the business so you've used a bit of a combination of someone else's that you're using a joint one, and now you're out and is there anything throughout that process that has been a surprise in terms of using books as a marketing tool, either you own or other people, I don't think, a surprise. \n\nKara: I feel like it's held helped me build credibility because I think when you say that you're an author of a solely you know book, I think that does yield to the additional you know expertise that I might have. So in the process 90 minute books I've been pleasantly pleased with the process itself. I wasn't quite sure what to expect and there's been very thorough and thoughtful and efficient and effective steps along the way. So the process has been somewhat very efficient, I'm very hopefully effective. \n\nStuart: That's it. Thank you for that. This isn't the reason why I do podcasts with people to hear nice things, but it's always nice when it happens. The point you were talking about is establishing its credibility and it has an energy bigger than the thing itself I always refer back to. \n\nWe did a podcast a couple of months ago now with Paul Ross, who's a podiatrist. So he had again a couple of books and the most recent one was a solo one, similar to yourself. But his latest book was my Damn Toe Hurts and it was podiatrist procedure. So again, a very niche book but relatively short, relatively kind of. That outcome is a surgical or a medical procedure, so there's only so much you can tell people in the book. It's not really a self-help type book, but so it's relatively to the point. But he'll have people coming in and saying, yeah, I'm here for my appointment, oh, you're the person that made the book. They don't make the connection beforehand because there's a couple of people in the practice. So it's always interesting to hear people talk about that element books. \n\nI think we always talk about ourselves as a marketing company, not a public Marketing, published company. The fact that books work so effectively it's almost Continental. We weren't looking for use case for books. It was what's the use case for engaging people in a book is the way, but it's always interesting to see that even in 2023, when self-publishing has been a thing for years, it's not the process itself isn't technically rocket science. It's a pain in the neck sometimes, but it's not rocket science. But still, with the audience out there, it has a power greater than just the fact that some words are written on a page and Reestablishes or establishes you as the person giving that and creating it, as an authority. \n\nKara: Well, right, and I again, I just want to leave with education and integrity in my heart and so just to empower people with information, and Hopefully that's provokes enough, you know, thought and interest to speak to me directly. But what I do also say is I look at everybody as my own family member. If you were my brother, what would I suggest you consider? Or my own mom? You know, I tell people all the time like this one my mom has, or this is what my own son has, or Whatever that might be, to make them relate to the fact that, again, this is in your best interest, and so I just want to maintain that integrity. \n\nStuart: So, as people are listening to this, watching along, where can they find more about you and the work that you're doing? \n\nKara: Sure Well, my website is focus strategic solutionscom. I am on social media as such focus strategic solutions Facebook, instagram, my team and I are actually about to launch up some podcasts Ourself, and then, of course, working on TikTok and all the other Platforms. Right, so I can be as hip as all of them out there right. \n\nStuart: What's that? It's all of those 20 year old clients right, exactly Exactly. \n\nKara: Luckily, my kids are helping me with that. \n\nStuart: That's asking what. We'll put links to all of those in the show notes so, as people are listening or watching along, I'll be in the podcast app on the website. Thanks again for your time. I always say that time goes faster, but it really does. It'd be great to check back in down the line, maybe as we get into next year, to see how things are going and what's come from it. And then, as always, thanks everyone for listening. Definitely check out the show notes and follow along with what Kara is doing, and then we will catch you all in the next one. \n\nKara: Excellent. Thank you, so much do I appreciate you. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kara Stewart, a seasoned financial advisor and author of 'Put Power in Your Purse', a holistic, stylish guide to retirement planning.
\n\nKara shares her journey from corporate finance to running a successful independent practice. A change initially forced on her through layoffs, but after reviewing her options, she decided that starting her own firm was the best path to helping those she truly wanted to help.
\n\nShe shares insights into her pioneering approach to empowering women through financial planning and education. A path started by sharing other resources but developed into her own approach, framework, and more recently, her new book.
\n\nIdentifying a target audience allows you to create a message and program that speaks specifically to their needs. Even if you work with a broader group or can help many people, treating your book as a tool for a specific campaign is the best way to start a conversation with a perfect prospect and plan their journey to working with you.
\n\nI love how Kara distinguishes herself in a competitive industry, and her approach is one that can be applied to many different industries.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/155
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nKara: Absolutely well. Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here today, Gosh. I've been in practice for 23 years. My career spans over Wells Fargo Bank, merrill Lynch, I was a market maker of community bank stocks, such as Bank of Petaluma, exchange, bank, sonoma National, which is now UMQUA, and then I spent a decade at Ventrio Insurance Brokerage as the assistant vice president and manager of the Financial Service Division, and then, in 2009, they actually eliminated my department and literally overnight, I found myself jobless and, of course, being married with a house and two babies. It was very scary and I decided well, what if I started my own practice? What if I went independent? And here, 13 years later, I am thriving, not just nearly surviving.
\n\nStuart: It goes fast.
\n\nI always kind of it does it sure does A little bit scared. When I started in the math, people started talking about 2008-09. So I was on the IT side of financial services at the time and our department went from 40 people down to 20 and I was still there, fortunately, but you think that was just yesterday, but it was a little bit more than yesterday In that timeframe. Then there was a necessity in going independent. Obviously, it's still around, so there's no regrets of having taken that choice. But the apprehension or the fear factor of being independent versus trying to find another job was it an easy choice to make or was it necessities? The mother invention and that was the other person.
\n\nKara: Yes and no. So I did have about eight different job offers within 24 hours of being laid off. So that was the good news. And so, again, thinking about, what if I went independent? What would that look like? And if, for some reason it didn't work, I had all these fallback positions. So I kind of went into it with the intention of hopefully it works well. Right, and here we are 13 years later. But again, if it doesn't, then I know that I am marketable and of value. And at that time, of course, I used to say how could you right? Like I felt very hurt and that was a hard time in my life. But now I say thank you, because have I not been pushed from the nest? I wouldn't have realized these beautiful wings.
\n\nStuart: Right and it gives you some opportunity to deal with the people who you prefer to deal with. We were talking with someone a few weeks ago who, again similar situation, came from a corporate background, but their perspective was very much. It was not burn insurance, not quite the right word but there was a certainly a male element to it of getting people in 10 minutes dealing with them. Move on to the next client. There wasn't really any tailored asset management or real holistic financial planning. I guess that's a big difference in the work that you've gone down the clients you deal with, because you can give that additional time and focus on those individuals.
\n\nKara: That's absolutely right. So in fact, the very thing that I did when I immediately went independent was to really evaluate the model right. And working for Wells Fargo and Merrill Lynch, what I didn't like is that they employed quotas on their employees for certain product areas and so I would see sometimes coworkers not necessarily doing the right thing for the client because that then meant that they then got through their quota and extra bonus et cetera. So when I went independent, the very first thing I did was not employ that model. So most financial advisors charge on UM or assets under management. So you can imagine they wanna manage all your assets right when sometimes that's not appropriate Sometimes.
\n\nAnd the holistic approach is really true in my practice in that I look at mortgage positions, I looked at trust planning, I look at insurance policies all the things that are part and tax planning. I mean that's a big difference between myself and a normal, traditional financial advisor is that I look at tax returns and I can analyze them, because I and I often will say if someone has an existing financial advisor and if they're not asking for your tax returns, that's like going to the doctor and having the doctor prescribe a remedy without looking at your medical record. That's how important that piece is of the overall puzzle, and so my approach is extremely different, very independent and, again, very holistic.
\n\nStuart: So the audience that you've got, are they locally, within a geographic area, or statewide or nationwide?
\n\nKara: I can work nationwide. In fact, I'm the nationwide financial advisor for charitable foundation. However, most of my clients are local. I am in Windsor, california, actually in the heart of Windsor Town Green, which is an area that we focus a lot on community I do, I give back all the time with not only my community but with first responders, doctors, dentists, police, firefighters, et cetera. But then also I have a very, very deep passion for empowering women.
\n\nStuart: And that actually is probably a great pivot into the book. So the book itself gives a little background into what brought you to, I guess, what brought you to writing it and then just dive into a little bit more on that group of people. It seems like an obvious question, but the idea to double down on the empowering women and helping that, if it's not too obvious, what made you want to focus on that group particularly?
\n\nKara: Sure, well, and I want to make sure it's very clear, I do work with men. In fact, most of my clients are men, and that's kind of what triggered this or ignited this passion was realizing that most women don't know what they don't know, and, in fact, there was a period of one year where I had three females that came to me this couple of years ago, three females that came to me having losing their husbands unexpectedly and prematurely, and all of which had no idea what they had or didn't have or should have or could have, and so it kind of united this movement almost to where I wanted to put power in the purse and empower women with information, and I started gifting a book called the Power of Zero right after our 2017 wildfires, because we as a community some of it's I mean my own sister lost her house where I got married was gone. Several clients lost their homes I actually had a client pass away in the fire so it was a significant, impactful event, indirectly or directly, and so I started gifting this book, power of Zero, by David McKnight, and I've gifted that probably to 500 families by now, just trying to leave with education and let them just understand what it is that they should have or could have it again, that the ideas are not something you'll get from the Wells Fargo or Maryland or Ever Jones or Fidelity, because it speaks to the tax planning piece of financial planning. And so after gifting that book, I thought you know, gosh, I'm really kind of giving David McKnight all this. You know, cred. And so I collaborated with three industry professionals on a book called the Holistic Retirement Plan, and that's as current as the pandemic. It talks about very relative issues that we face globally and locally.
\n\nAnd then from there it was like but what if I wrote my solely authored book, which has been a goal of mine for many years? I've always loved writing. I could, when my kids were little, I could, like whip up a poem as their birthday invitation, literally within a matter of minutes. I enjoy writing and I'm very not to, you know, toot my own horn, but I'm very creative in the way I can just literally rattle off something and comes off in a way like it seems like it took me a long time to prepare, but no, it's just how I speak and how I think. And so putting that to paper and really trying to empower women with education was truly what made me want to write this book. As a native of Sonoma County, my reputation needs more to me than anything, and so, again, just trying to lead with that integrity and the authenticity is truly what the book is all about.
\n\nStuart: And that's just as you started there. That was a great point because you were mentioning that you work with men and maybe even the majority of clients. That is a great talking point. Briefly, because oftentimes people have a skesities maybe not quite the right word, but they don't view the book as a campaign specific asset. They're looking at it in a traditional sense and thinking that a book needs to be this very broad thing, like you would say in a bookshelf, in a store, in the traditional sense of covering all of the elements, as opposed to thinking about the real benefits, particularly as business owners, of having a campaign specific approach. So just because this particular book is targeting this group absolutely not the case that you're excluding or not working with the other people it's just for this particular activity, this is the target audience and we're trying to write something that's as specific and useful to that group.
\n\nAgain, nothing against or excluding the other people, but thinking about it as a campaign specific thing. I think it makes the whole process so much more straightforward, particularly if people aren't in your position of finding it easy or easier to write and enjoying it. If people are seeing this is an outcome that I want, but actually I'm a little bit daunted or not enthusiastic about the process. Thinking about it as a campaign specific thing which narrows down the scope, targets the audience, focuses the attention a little bit more into what's to include or not include makes it so much easier, but it was.
\n\nI took the point as you were saying, that it's definitely not that people are writing the book that is comprehensively saying only what they do. It's that we're trying to start a specific type of conversation and again there's many other things going on. The idea of what to include and what not to include then. So with having the target audience is being relatively dialed in and making that a little bit easier to align the content with the people. What was the thought process around what to include and what not to include, like the journey from someone seeing the book and being given the book three to a quarter action on the back? Talk us through a little bit about that process of you. Wanted to make sure that people knew.
\n\nKara: Right?
\n\nWell, what I have been starting now that I have this office space in the Winsor Town Green, is I have a quarterly event called Women, wisdom and Wealth, and it's often at a winery, just because of the venue needs to be much larger. In fact, I just did my quarterly event last Wednesday and there was 45 women in attendance. So it speaks to the need for the information and I focus on health and wealth, and so obviously I speak to the wealth piece of it, but I also say that you have really nothing if you don't have your health, and so I invite what I call wellness warriors in to co-present with me, and that looks different depending on the quarter, but, for example, we talk about stress management and hormones and aging and all the things that we as women do need to understand and educate, and really, just once you talk about the things that you're dealing with on a personal, professional basis, you realize you're not alone, right? So the goal again is to empower women, surround them with other empowered women In fact, I point the phrase empowered women in power women but then also just simply focus on our two greatest assets. So I started with those events and again, kind of it was a process kind of that led me to wanting to produce this book, and it's the subtitles called how to have a stylish and holistic retirement plan a confident woman's guide.
\n\nSo again, it's to infuse confidence in a woman that they know, at the end of the day, that they're going to be okay. Right, like when I looked at my surviving spouse and said, from a financial perspective, anyway, right, emotionally, physically, I understand you're struggling, but financially you're going to be okay. And we planned for, obviously, a long, healthy life. That's obviously the ultimate goal. But we've also put in, you know parameters, you know umbrellas, if you will, if we had compromise, compromised living or needing some former long-term care or ultimately, upon your demise, to your beneficiaries or to your loved ones. So really it's just to empower women with the education. In fact, often I open up those workshops by saying if you don't have a man, you need to have a plan, and if you have a man, be part of the plan, have a voice and know what it is that you do have or don't have.
\n\nAnd again, no judgment. That's the other thing I often will hear is I might be too young or I might be too old. And no, that's not the case. Neither is true. You know when's the best time to plan a tree, of course 20 years ago. When's the next best time? Today? My youngest client is 20. My oldest client is 103. So and clients come to me too A lot of times. I know them because, again, I'm a native and there's zero judgment of anything. What you have thus far, there's all that we can solve for, is what we know today, and then we make plans and then just accordingly, as life ebbs and flows, and so and of course I always maintain that most confidentiality I let people know. I mean because, again, we are in a small town and I just say you know, it's just like your doctor. I use that analogy often because some people can relate to doctors all the time, just like they are held to the same confidentiality perspective requirements as well that idea of the no judgment.
\n\nStuart: It was interesting. Back in a previous career I did some financial what do we call it? So it's part of their FSA, which is the UK's equivalent, the financial regulator. So I was on the IT side, not on the enforcement side or the policy side, but the organisation would go out to other organisations and do education events just around financial literacy and as someone who'd been in the business for 20 years and just had a general interest in it, it seemed like a very basic introduction, which was the point of it. But it was surprising. I maybe did 10 or 12 of these.
\n\nIt was surprising every time that the language, which seemed very superficial and basic to us, was complicated and confusing to other people and, I think, just the nature of the industry, either intentionally or unintentionally. Some of the language that's used around financial products is almost intentionally confusing Things, concepts, that are relatively straightforward to understand if you just use plain English. Once you start using the English, the industry language, it makes it more complicated. And then, of course, like you say, you add in all of this baggage and judgment and pressure and fear and perception that there's a lack of education or people feeling stupid about it. It's such a disservice to if people aren't introduced to the conversations that you're having with them. That really helps them understand. Now is the best time to do something about it, no matter where you are, and the steps that you can take can be relatively straightforward. So did you find a similar thing? It's that once you start bridging that gap and making people feel better about the questions that they're asking, did that really start to accelerate the conversations? Yeah, absolutely.
\n\nKara: In fact, I've been asked and would love to speak to the high schools and colleges because nobody is teaching our young adults about financial planning. And I talk and I really do to your point. Try to dumb it down and talk in layman terms about financial planning. So when we talk about the coveted retirement account being the 401k and IRA and the difference obviously is one's in player, sponsored, and one's not, and we have been taught to believe that is where we should be putting our retirement dollars. But if you really think about it and digest it and I did this whole video talking about the minus recalls of the buckets in wine country I call it the wine glasses but tax, now tax free, and then tax deferred and what the differences are. So a 401k and IRA is like kicking the can down the road in terms of taxation and you're adding money to the can as you go and at the end of the road I'll say I'm holding out his hand and say, well, I didn't charge you on a dollar, but now I'm charging you on $100. And so clients seem to resonate with that. They understand. And then, of course, taxes by percentage are going up. Right, we're going to sunset in 2020, the Trump tax laws are going away. Plus, we added $14 trillion to our national debt with the pandemic and the stimulus packages, and then further we've got a problem with our social security funding, all the baby boomers pulling on those benefits. Where is that going to come from? And then you know, we're also approaching election year, so taxes by percentage are going up.
\n\nSo one of my famous examples as a client who came to me having quite a bit in our 401k, thinking she was doing the right thing by maximizing her contribution. So I simply asked her well, what's your company match? And she said dollar for dollar, up to 4%. She was contributing 15. So I said, well, let's take the 11% you're already contributing and let's repurpose it to a tax-free strategy. That's not a Roth, but it does grow tax-free and distributes tax-free. But unlike a Roth, it doesn't have income limits, contribution restrictions and, most importantly, accessibility. You can access it prior to $259.5. And it was going to change her retirement income by $7 million just by repurposing what she was already saving. So it's just those kinds of conversations you're not going to get at Wells Fargo Bank or Merrill Lynch or Ever Jumps, because the traditional buckets and the cookie cutter mold.
\n\nStuart: people almost then check the box I'm doing something, someone else is telling me it's the thing to do. I've got that confident and comfortable feeling that it's all being taken care of. But unless it's actually case by case addressed in a with an expert, someone that can see the holistic picture, that difference is astronomical, and even more so over the long term. If you get to talk to people early, so having conversations with kids out of school, ours, the youngest is 14 and the oldest is 25. So the middle ones, as they're just going into the workplace out of school, saying to them, just start small, start doing something, and the benefit of the long timeframe can really account for there's not almost no bad decision that you can make, can just start with something and then dial it in over the years. It's quite a difference.
\n\nKara: And that speaks to my approach. So my process includes gathering information on the front end and, again, different than a CPA, where output equals input they're driving a car through the rearview mirror, I'm looking at the windshield. How do we appropriately change your situation, the input to positively impact the output? So I do ask for a lot of information on the front end because, again, just like your doctor, I need to know about your overall financial history to be able to appropriately prescribe. And what I then do is show clients okay, this is your status quo. If you keep doing what you're doing, this is what your future self looks like. And are you on track to meet, exceed or fall short of your goals? And even if you're on track to meet or exceed, I can say with the almost 100% confidence I can still improve upon those results by the planning that I do. And so and I've created such a name for myself now that actually CPA firms are reaching out to me to ask them to help them with their text planning for their clients.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic and actually that's a great subject as well in this idea of kind of complimentary non-competing businesses the fact that as you're out there talking to your audience, there are other firms out there with their audience and where it crosses over huge opportunity to kind of get a synergistic result of more than the individual parts Right. A good friend owns an ICDISC tax planning firm which is so niche I mean you wouldn't as outside you wouldn't imagine that there was a dedicated business for it. But their benefit of being specialists in that area means that they can work in a non-threatening way with CPAs because they're just focused on their area. I imagine that's the same for you. Specializing in this approach, which is something different than a number of them try to offer that complimentary service. Really kind of ties in well. Do you see that happen quite often.
\n\nKara: Well, you know, when I actually named my company Focus Strategic Solutions, that was very intentional. Focus is a pun I use all the time. You know. Get focus, let's focus on your future self. And actually it is an acronym that stands for various things, but strategic is referring to the trust advisor team, right? So in an ideal world I'd actually speak with their clients CPA, attorney, other financial advisors, insurance agents, estate plan attorneys, etc. Because as a team we can really support our clients, you know, at the utmost ability to create what it is we're trying to accomplish. So that's strategic. And then solutions means there's one side that does not fit all and, depending on what the clients unique goals and objectives are, there's multiple different options, right? So Focus Strategic Solutions is the name of my firm, and again, that's very intentional, and one size does not fit all. So I come to, you know, clients come to me and I don't know necessarily what I'm going to be offering them until I dive down deep into what it is that they're all suddenly trying to achieve.
\n\nStuart: The breadth of services that you can offer. Do you hit a point where you need to reach out to other partners to provide additional services that are out with scope of what you do, or is the majority of what you do in scope of the nature of the things that they might need? That kind of overlap as well as incoming is outgoing as well.
\n\nKara: Sure, well, I do ask on the front end who those other professionals are, and then I ask if those relationships are working. And so I'm very respectful. If the relationship is thriving and they are happy with that person and their service and the results, then I want to collaborate with them on the client's behalf. If they're not happy, for whatever reason, then I do have resources that I can refer them to and then together we can work for that client. So, again, if I don't know them, I reach out and introduce myself that we've now have a mutual client and then, of course, if they're not happy, then I've got a referral source and a network of other you know professionals I can refer a client to.
\n\nStuart: Again, come back to a holistic approach. It's so much more beneficial. I really like the doctor's analogy that you use of saying that if you are trying to sort out a medical problem, you really want the doctor to know absolutely everything. So there's no ambiguity in the same situation here. Looking at the book itself, then, so we've talked about the use case of physically giving it to people. I'm guessing that some of that is along with the events, what going into the project, what other ways? Were you thinking about using it at the end? Or were you thinking about using it at the end? Or did you just want to get, want it to get created?
\n\nKara: No, I am very much have thoughts on how I'm going to use it. I do lead with that and try to get clients. Again, I gifted this book, power of Zero, my example there was 500 to 500 people. Now did all of those clients or all those people become clients? No, some people just simply want the book because they want the book. Some people want the book for the information and they may take that to their existing advisor, all of which is okay. And then, of course, some people have become clients, and not only that, but raging fans.
\n\nSo my goal is to gift the book, just similar than I have in the past, and that's to even perfect strangers. But then also at the events. And then also I'm going to be offering vouchers of free time, like free consultations, to accompany the book that my clients can give to their centers of influences, their friends, their family, their colleagues, etc. Just again to empower them with information. And if they become a client, then great. If they don't become a client, then great. I just want people to know, to understand and to have their B education about financial planning, because there simply just isn't at this moment.
\n\nStuart: Right and again, that's another benefit of it being so tailored. It's very obvious who the audience is. Again, for this specific campaign, it's not here's a book of general financial advice. It's here's specifically a book to empower other women, and the clients you have that fall into that category almost certainly know of other people who would benefit from it. The idea of those orchestrated referrals and the so many opportunities, once it exists, to say to people, even on calendar based things, so tax return time or end of year or new year's resolutions, or April 15th deadline, the extended deadline, all of these things in the calendar where it makes people think about their financial planning elements, the fact that you can reach back out to the list and say, oh, by the way, if you have anyone else struggling, here's a copy of the book that you can give to them, being able to orchestrate it in a friendly way. It's leading with the information, leading with value first.
\n\nKara: Right, and that's important. And again, another differentiator, because oftentimes financial advisors have specific minimum net worth that they require a prospect to have in order to even talk to them. Again, different than what I do, I help literally anybody, and the reason for that is twofold. One is I was once getting started having a family, buying a house. I wish somebody would have held my hand at that time.
\n\nBut then two, you never know who they know, and one of my largest excuse me, one of my smallest accounts, that I was helping her with debt management and expense budgeting and all the things refer me to one of my largest accounts. So again, just do the right thing, even when nobody's watching has served me very well, personally and professionally.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that idea. I think that would serve a lot of people very well across the whole board. It's interesting as well, this idea that you don't know. I mean those people.
\n\nWe've worked with, people who were another financial planning company up around Detroit. So they, how many years ago would it be 15, maybe 20 years ago? We very much in the college planning, college financing type world, so they had a not small list of people who they'd worked with all of those years ago. But now those same people they're completely out of that audience group. They're not in college planning anymore but they're moving towards the perfect time, towards retirement planning, because they were in their 30s 20 years ago. Now they're in their 50s. So that same audience group has maintained some level of relationship over that longer period, not really from a client perspective but just from a kind of slow burn, reach out, keep in touch type of campaign.
\n\nBut now we've got the opportunity to reignite some of those people with something that's more timely and useful and relevant for them in the moment, from the book itself then. So we've got a way of reaching out to people who you don't know. Just by offering the book and having out there you've got relationships or referrals from people who you do know, making that warm connection. There's opportunities for all of their speaking, and the social media kind of relate to the book and have that as the next step. Once someone reads and consumes the book, what's the best next step for them to take? Once they've read something and there's something there, what's the next step that you have for them to? I don't even want to say get started, but kind of take the next step towards more of a conversation.
\n\nKara: To get focused. You mean? Well, first off, I wanted to say that the book is not a prerequisite to any meeting, right? So I do have clients that say, well gosh, give me a book, I will never pick it up. So I want to just flush that out. That's not something. That's not a requirement that one reads the book. But the next step should you choose to read it or not would be to schedule what I call and explore one conversation.
\n\nThat is a completely preliminary 30 minute phone call that I kind of coin like. It's like a speed date, right, you're interviewing me, I'm interviewing you. Let's first find out do we have alignment philosophically and do we want to continue and have that next date? Right? And so if we agree, both agree, to proceed, then the next step looks that I then ask for information, again looking at, I've got a questionnaire that I asked them to complete, just again similar to a medical questionnaire, and then together I with my team, I put together that status, close situation, and then I invite them into the office and of course, if they're not local, then I assume just works just fine, because I want to share my screen and I go through all my input so they can see, this is what you told me on the questionnaire, right, this is what you, these are your assets, this is your age, this is what you've been doing thus far and this is what that looks like. And then I give them my proposal and how much greater that can then yield.
\n\nThe other objection I often get with clients may or prospects, excuse me, may say well, I already have an existing financial advisor and my objection to that is I'm not surprised most successful people do. But just like when you go to your doctor and your primary care physician gave you a terminal illness, would you seek an opinion from a specialist? And likewise, you know, my. My approach is so very different than normal financial advisors because I focus not only on asset allocation, which is important, but on tax diversification, which I would argue is almost more important. Also, on, you know, most advisors look at accumulation, which again very important. How do we get up the mountain? But are they like poised and ready to get you down the mountain in terms of distribution? You know I'm looking at efficiencies with distribution. How do we get your assets back to you during your lifetime with as least taxation as possible, to improve cash flow and ultimately to your family and not to MPH.
\n\nStuart: The family point is a good one there as well, because being having an established footprint within a local area, the fact that you do know these people and have a long term relationship with them, I mean it. Just all of those elements reinforce. Not that it's essential in this day and age I mean we're talking on opposite sides of the country at the moment, so not that it's essential but there's definitely a continuity of care to keep the medical analogy going, there's a continuity of care to those people and their families and I think, looking at it in that holistic way, but anyone who's got an interest in doing more than just a cursory check in the box and putting some money in a pool of, in a bucket of something, then that must really add to the connection that you have with people and just reinforce the fact that you're in it for the long term, just like they are.
\n\nKara: That's true. In fact, I always say people say you name Kara or Kara, and I'm like you care about me, I care about you. So that's a good, easy way to remember it, because, it's true, I've been in practice for over two decades, so I certainly feel like I have expertise. However, having said that, I still have a coach and I think that's important to note as well, because even professional athletes have coaches and so I again have the expertise behind me.
\n\nBut yet I am somewhat young still, and I'm going to be around long term for my clients to exercise the plans that we're putting in place, which is important, and so every year at a minimum, I review the existing plan and decide like is it on track to still meet your current needs, or are you playing a trip around the world, or do you have a wedding you're going to be funding, or is something changing in your life to the better, or hopefully not the worst? But that happens, life happens, and so we need to adjust the plan accordingly, and so my relationship is long term, hence the speed date right. I want to make sure that I am enjoying this relationship as well, because it's going to be for the long term.
\n\nStuart: And brings us back to early on in the conversation when we were saying that's the opposite of being in the traditional large business sense of sometimes you don't really get the choice of who you work with. You just have to. You've got a roster of clients that you're working through, okay. So, with all that in mind, and one question I'd like to wrap up with and then we'll make sure that we give people links so they can get in touch with you and see more about what you're doing but the process of using books in the business so you've used a bit of a combination of someone else's that you're using a joint one, and now you're out and is there anything throughout that process that has been a surprise in terms of using books as a marketing tool, either you own or other people, I don't think, a surprise.
\n\nKara: I feel like it's held helped me build credibility because I think when you say that you're an author of a solely you know book, I think that does yield to the additional you know expertise that I might have. So in the process 90 minute books I've been pleasantly pleased with the process itself. I wasn't quite sure what to expect and there's been very thorough and thoughtful and efficient and effective steps along the way. So the process has been somewhat very efficient, I'm very hopefully effective.
\n\nStuart: That's it. Thank you for that. This isn't the reason why I do podcasts with people to hear nice things, but it's always nice when it happens. The point you were talking about is establishing its credibility and it has an energy bigger than the thing itself I always refer back to.
\n\nWe did a podcast a couple of months ago now with Paul Ross, who's a podiatrist. So he had again a couple of books and the most recent one was a solo one, similar to yourself. But his latest book was my Damn Toe Hurts and it was podiatrist procedure. So again, a very niche book but relatively short, relatively kind of. That outcome is a surgical or a medical procedure, so there's only so much you can tell people in the book. It's not really a self-help type book, but so it's relatively to the point. But he'll have people coming in and saying, yeah, I'm here for my appointment, oh, you're the person that made the book. They don't make the connection beforehand because there's a couple of people in the practice. So it's always interesting to hear people talk about that element books.
\n\nI think we always talk about ourselves as a marketing company, not a public Marketing, published company. The fact that books work so effectively it's almost Continental. We weren't looking for use case for books. It was what's the use case for engaging people in a book is the way, but it's always interesting to see that even in 2023, when self-publishing has been a thing for years, it's not the process itself isn't technically rocket science. It's a pain in the neck sometimes, but it's not rocket science. But still, with the audience out there, it has a power greater than just the fact that some words are written on a page and Reestablishes or establishes you as the person giving that and creating it, as an authority.
\n\nKara: Well, right, and I again, I just want to leave with education and integrity in my heart and so just to empower people with information, and Hopefully that's provokes enough, you know, thought and interest to speak to me directly. But what I do also say is I look at everybody as my own family member. If you were my brother, what would I suggest you consider? Or my own mom? You know, I tell people all the time like this one my mom has, or this is what my own son has, or Whatever that might be, to make them relate to the fact that, again, this is in your best interest, and so I just want to maintain that integrity.
\n\nStuart: So, as people are listening to this, watching along, where can they find more about you and the work that you're doing?
\n\nKara: Sure Well, my website is focus strategic solutionscom. I am on social media as such focus strategic solutions Facebook, instagram, my team and I are actually about to launch up some podcasts Ourself, and then, of course, working on TikTok and all the other Platforms. Right, so I can be as hip as all of them out there right.
\n\nStuart: What's that? It's all of those 20 year old clients right, exactly Exactly.
\n\nKara: Luckily, my kids are helping me with that.
\n\nStuart: That's asking what. We'll put links to all of those in the show notes so, as people are listening or watching along, I'll be in the podcast app on the website. Thanks again for your time. I always say that time goes faster, but it really does. It'd be great to check back in down the line, maybe as we get into next year, to see how things are going and what's come from it. And then, as always, thanks everyone for listening. Definitely check out the show notes and follow along with what Kara is doing, and then we will catch you all in the next one.
\n\nKara: Excellent. Thank you, so much do I appreciate you.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kara Stewart, a seasoned financial advisor and author of 'Put Power in Your Purse', a holistic, stylish guide to retirement planning.\r\n\r\nKara shares her journey from corporate finance to running a successful independent practice. A change initially forced on her through layoffs, but after reviewing her options, she decided that starting her own firm was the best path to helping those she truly wanted to help.\r\n\r\nShe shares insights into her pioneering approach to empowering women through financial planning and education. A path started by sharing other resources but developed into her own approach, framework, and more recently, her new book.\r\n\r\nIdentifying a target audience allows you to create a message and program that speaks specifically to their needs. Even if you work with a broader group or can help many people, treating your book as a tool for a specific campaign is the best way to start a conversation with a perfect prospect and plan their journey to working with you.\r\n\r\nI love how Kara distinguishes herself in a competitive industry, and her approach is one that can be applied to many different industries.","date_published":"2023-12-14T09:45:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/632a7d67-eb84-4be2-a6c1-dc275deb4615.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25209487,"duration_in_seconds":2047}]},{"id":"b21d5e1e-3a83-4f81-ad54-e759e3cc16b3","title":"Ep154: Banking on Success with Chris Carlson","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/154","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday, on the Book More Show, we're talking with Chris Carlson, a seasoned coach for regional bank teams and author of \"Banking on Success - 7 Keys to Extraordinary Success in Relationship Banking.\" \n\nOne of the most valuable ways to start a conversation is by helping people with something they are struggling with today. As a coach, Chris can analyse specific sales challenges and prescribe just the right tool, but his book starts the conversation in an easy-to-understand, universally applicable way with 7 steps everyone can benefit from. Rather than telling people they're doing it wrong or going deep into the psychology of sales calls, he helps people take an actionable step and provides a prominent call to action to continue the journey.\n\nThis is a great call as we dive into his perspective on using books and platforms like LinkedIn for business outreach, and we discuss the significance of consistent client contact and developing relationships over time, something that's easy to overlook in a 'get new leads' driven world.\n\nChris brings a lot to this call. Whether you've finished your book or have it on the list to start before the year ends, there are some great ideas to steal here.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nWe discuss the importance of proactive strategies and specialization in the banking industry with guest Chris Carlson, author of \"Banking on Success.\"\nChris shares his experience coaching regional banks and how his book helps business and commercial bankers achieve extraordinary results.\nWe delve into how LinkedIn can be utilized for effective business outreach, with Chris providing expert advice on leveraging the platform to engage potential clients.\nChris explains how learning and development departments within banks can serve as an effective starting point for marketing efforts.\nWe uncover Chris's promotional strategy for his book and planner, using tools ranging from speaking engagements to direct mail to potential clients.\nWe discuss Malcolm Gleason's \"Wombat Selling,\" emphasizing the importance of consistent outreach and adding value in client interactions, especially in business banking.\nChris provides insight into the self-publishing process and shares the advantages of using a service like 90-Minute Books.\nWe explore how a book can serve as a powerful marketing tool for businesses, discussing its potential for reaching out to past clients and prospects, as well as acting as a referral opportunity.\nChris shares his experience working with 90 Minute Books and how publishing a book has helped him establish credibility, authority, and reach a wider audience in the banking industry.\nWe encourage listeners to consider publishing their own book as a means of enhancing their credibility and reach in their respective fields.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nChris Carlson - LinkedIn\nThe Relationship Banking Academy\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/154\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmoor show. It's Stuart Bell here and today I'm super excited to be joined by Chris Carlson. \n\nChris: Chris how are you doing? I'm doing great, stuart. Thanks for the opportunity to talk to you today. \n\nStuart: I'm excited to jump on and dive into some things because you're following through with the book and you've got it out there in a way that's particularly interesting. So we'll make sure that we touch on all of that life cycle. But I think it's going to be really valuable for people listening in, either if they have a book themselves already, to look at the way that you're using it in a slightly more longer funnel or broader funnel, or if people are thinking about writing a book. I know this isn't the only book that you've written. So as we cover some of those stories about how books have helped you in your marketing, I think it's going to be great. Hopefully, encouragement to help people get started before the end of the year and then they can really hit 2024 on the road. So I think we start from the beginning. Give everyone a little bit of background of view and their organization there. \n\nChris: Yeah, great. \n\nAnd people, like a lot of people you know, went to college, had the opportunity to spend four years in the army as an officer, came out and I spent the first 19 years of my what I call my civilian career on the insurance business, working my way up from a local rep all the way to a national sales manager and then 20 plus years ago. \n\nI mean, my affinity has always been coaching and I went into the coaching business and have been focused on the financial services arena those 20 plus years. But being laser, being focused on the banking industry and our organization, the Relationship Banking Academy, is we work with what I would call regional sized banks. You know that have some heft to them in terms of personnel and so we're not working with the smallest of banks, although we have and we've worked with the biggest of banks. But we found that our niche is in that regional bank where they definitely need help with coaching and training and we really believe that our systems and processes, you know, really help them. So really excited to be able to specialize in that space and go really deep with those organizations. \n\nStuart: It's interesting, isn't it, when people talk about specialization, because there's always this and we're guilty of it as well here always this risk of or concern around missing out or losing other business. But the reality is when you can really dial in the message that talks specifically to the audience, and then obviously you pick up business on either side. It's not like you're turning those people away, but talking about niching and specializing. It's really just in that outreach and the communication side of things. So picking up on the slightly smaller or slightly large ones, but understanding that it's the sweet spot in the middle, and I guess one of the reasons for that is because that's where you can make a real, the biggest difference. The challenge in the smallest end is that they're constrained on resources, both people and money, and at the bigger end they're constrained by processes and systems and just the corporate message. So I guess it's really that middle bit that you can make a difference to. \n\nChris: It definitely has worked for us, and one of the things I learned a long time ago through failing is you can't boil the ocean. Although I love the words that you use fear and missing out. We think, oh, we miss one opportunity. But the reality is, if you say yes to something, then you got to say no to something else, and so I think it's very important that, whatever line of work that you're in, that you really understand who your target market is and we talk about that actually in the book of being laser beam focused on your markets, if that's going to get you further faster. \n\nStuart: Right, that's a good transition into the book. So then this idea of sharing with them the ideas, that starts the conversation that they can have with you. So the book titled banking on success, talk a little bit about the audience for that and kind of where in that funnel of talking with these medium sized organizations that the book comes in and then conversation, yeah, so it's a great question, stuart, and when we work with the banks, our customers typically we're working with business bankers and commercial bankers. \n\nChris: We are not called in that often to work with the retail side of the bank. You know those branches. If you will Doesn't mean that we don't occasionally work with them. So I was really thinking about that business banker, commercial banker audience where they're out there calling on businesses, calling on professionals, calling on large organizations to help them in their financial journey. \n\nAnd what I know is that the overwhelming majority of bankers that I run into they're hardworking and caring and individuals, but unfortunately, with so many things coming at them, they tend to be very reactive. And what I've noticed is the very best bankers, the most successful bankers, obviously they have to react, but they have put together proactive systems and proactive plans which allow them to rise and they're the cream in the crop. And I said, okay, so how do I get that message out, you know, to a broader audience? And that's where I kind of came up with the idea of the seven keys and then I transferred that into the seven m's and so I have seven m's that I share in my book about what I really think that a banker needs to do proactively to achieve extraordinary results. \n\nStuart: It's interesting because I think it's such a. It's such an idea that isn't new for people. The broad idea, not the specifics. The broad idea of being proactive. It's more beneficial in terms of kind of orchestrating the results and planning ahead of time. And everyone says that it's more cost effective and time effective to kind of plan it rather than react to it. \n\nBut I would say for the majority, the vast majority of business owners, of people who are responsible for filling their own book, the reality is that just the day to day, defy of burning, means that we're way more reactive than we want to. So to be in your position of not necessarily having to sell the concept, because that's understood, but selling the way of the introduction to the idea of achieving it, it's an interesting position. It's not necessarily creating the manifesto of why being proactive or why orchestrating things is a good idea, but more along, this is how to do it. You've tried to do it before perhaps, and fails. This is a better, more straightforward, a simple way of doing it. Is that right in the way that you find, when dealing with the people, that is an idea that they've got already, or is that just my guilt coming out, because I know I should be better at it myself. \n\nChris: You know, stuart, I think there's an old expression. I know you've heard it many times. You know about the guide from the side as opposed to the sage from the stage, and I think there's so many sages out there. But what really has to happen and this is true even for the most successful people is they still need that guidance to make sure that they don't chase squirrels and they stay true to their mission. And that's why, you know, people like you and Dean Jackson and Dan Sullivan exist, because even the best, most successful people still need that guidance so they can latch on to a concept. But who's holding them accountable, or what tools are there to hold them accountable? So I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to take the first step with the book is kind of overall view, but then let's go deeper on how you actually accomplish some of these things that you want to accomplish. \n\nStuart: Right, just on that point quickly. That's so true. I've never particularly thought about it in that way before and that's saying I can try and remember that saying because that's the first time I've heard that. But true in the sense that I've just started working with some LinkedIn guys who I've known for some time and it was almost a. We talked about this idea of you can book through a great way of reaching out to people and getting them on the list, and then you need a way of staying in touch with people over the longer duration, because most people, or a lot of people, aren't ready to go today, but they are ready to go at some point in the future and you just need to marry up. \n\nMy experience with the LinkedIn guys is exactly that. \n\nI've known and our business absolute, almost 100% crossover with LinkedIn in terms of a lead generation and an audience, and it's something that I've been so lacks on doing, and it's not because I don't really know what to do or have ideas around doing it, it's just our time and other fires have come up. \n\nSo happening to have a conversation with a friend that reminded me of these people and then starting that conversation and engaging them to be accountable and do some of the work a little bit, and I've been doing these books yourself before. It's not like you can't do it. It's not rocket science I would say that to people. But still engaging someone else to do it gives you almost a line of the sand and a reason to do it now, and I guess that's the same with your business and the people that you're talking with. I'm sure this isn't the first time that they've ever thought about it. But having you there to give the direction, to remove the distractions and almost to focus in on the points that make a difference and the funny things around it, that might not be as effective, but you can really laser focus them on what they need to do. The people who you're having that first conversation with, is that the bank, the relationship bankers themselves, or is that more of a HR department or training department in the organizations? \n\nChris: Yeah, that's a great question, and so traditionally it has been those learning and development organizations within a bank, or maybe there's a higher ranking executive that I run into that gets me in touch with them, so that tends to be where we spend most of our time. But that was the conundrum that I had, stuart, when I was writing this book. I said, okay, that's great, but there's over 4000 banks in this country and I'm not going to talk to the vast majority of those learning and development departments. So how can I help the individual banker who's bank may not know me and or may not want to invest in our particular programs? And that's why, as I started to come with the ideas in the book, I said, ok, theory is great, but I got to have something else, and that's where I came up, and I didn't. \n\nI did these two things simultaneously. I created the banking on success planner. So we take all the ideas that we talk about in the book and then we lay it out to allow them to develop the strategy. And then part of the planner is daily activity, because, let's face it, we all have grandiose goals and you know, there's the old expression it's hard by the yard, it's cinched by the inch. And so what I do is I break it down to a daily activity with the most important things they need to do, based upon the strategies that they implemented on the learnings from the book. So to your point yes, I'm talking to a lot of learning development, but I had to figure out a way. How do I touch those tens and tens and tens and tens of thousands of bankers potentially? But I can help them individually if they want to go forward, even if their bank is not going to do something. \n\nStuart: That's such a great balance between the two and we often talk about books. Think of them as, rather than in the traditional sense of a book, is this big thing that takes forever to write and once you've written it, that's, it's set in stone. Instead, think about books as almost like a campaign tool, almost like you would in Facebook ads. This tool is fit for this particular campaign and the campaign steps through to these people. So the idea of having some outreach tools that you've got which are focused on learning and development, hr, those types of level of the organization and what they're, because they're, they're criteria or their objectives, that what they're rewarded on their motivations are going to be different from the individuals. But what you've described is having both of those approaches in different ways. \n\nYou already have those conversations. Who already got access to those 4,000 or so organizations? But to be able to speak to the individual in a way that's much more tangible and actionable and follow through. And then the planner is backed up by the ideas that are in the book and the book is backed up by action steps they can take in the planner. It's very synergistic in the sense that it's one campaign moving people in one direction, but the two slightly different access points into it. Talk a little bit about how these, how the bank is out there. Then again, visibility of either the book or the planner Is this something that you've got an opportunity to kind of like direct send to them because you can get a list of who they are or the shows and events where they can get access to it, or speaking opportunities that introduce into the idea? What's the access to those people with the tools? \n\nChris: Yeah, I mean so a lot of things. No matter what tools we develop, is we still have to put together a marketing plan, right? Because just because we publish a book, people aren't lined up outside the office saying, well, I can't wait to get a copy of your book. So you know, one of the things that I've started out certainly the lowest hanging fruit for me with the book and the planner is current and past customers and clients. You know. So what I'm doing is I'm taking a copy of the book and taking a copy of the planner, putting it in a priority mail envelope and sending it to current and past customers and saying, hey, here's what we got. You might be interested. If so, give me a call. They already know, they already know me to know who I am, they know what I can do. So that's going to spur some activity. And maybe that's a speaking engagement. Maybe that's they order many copies of the book and or planner. Maybe they say, hey, chris, we'd like to go deeper with you if we have a current relationship or we want to reengage you. So that's really to me that the always hanging a fruit. \n\nNow I'm also fortunate enough to have, you know, several speaking engagement throughout the course of the year. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to take of enough copies for everybody in the audience of the book, right, and give it away. Give it away and I got to make a comment is when I receive my 20 books from 90 minute books in a bow, by the way, which I am afraid to untie because it's so beautiful, but you guys included another book beyond the book, right? And one of the things that Dean talked about in the book is you're not going to make any money selling your book. Give it away, that's how you're going to get further faster. So in speaking engagements, I'm just going to give a copy to everybody who's in my audience, be it a small audience, be a big audience, they get something. \n\nThen every state in this country has a banking association and that banking association puts on events throughout the course of the year A lot of webinars, maybe one or two live events. So I'm taking a copy of the book, I'm writing a letter and I'm basically saying, hey, here's a copy of my book and here are three talks that I put together as a result of the material in the books. And, if I can ever be of assistance, reach out to me and I know that some will reach out to me, some won't, but I'm going to people who I can have get me in front of a broader audience. And then I talked about that that target my regional banks. I'm going to send a postcard to the appropriate person, you know, promoting the book and the planner. And then, finally, I also have the great fortune to teach at several banking schools across the country and, like I said with my other speaking engagements, I'm going to take a copy of the book, give it to everybody. \n\nAnd because, what's not? Only does the book give them great information and, stuart, here's what I think is brilliant about what you guys do is, when you turn that book over and you look at the back cover, three ways that they can engage, you know, with the author. In my particular case, you know they can go to the book's website and I give them a PDF about how to do a better job of marketing. They also can go to the website and they get a video of how they can develop and deepen better relationships with centers of influence. And then, finally, I have a link to the banking on success planner. They can buy the planner. So the brilliance of that, because we know a lot of people just look at their front cover, turn it over. But now they've got three ways they can continue the conversation with me and that could be either the learning development people or it could be an individual banker. \n\nStuart: There's such a great point about people just really 100% of people see the front of it, 90 something percent people see the back and then it's a diminishing curve from the table of contents through the, through the content itself. \n\nBecause, Particularly, this isn't. We're not writing books where the book is the product and people are buying the book like they would a Tom Clancy novel or whatever the latest best-selling author is there. The job of work of the book isn't to entertain, although hopefully it's entertaining, but the job of work isn't to entertain. The job of work is to start the conversation and people putting their hand up and requesting it. If they could have a button next to it where they pressed the button and it was like a matrix all the information is downloaded into their brain they would choose that because it's the outcome that they want not necessarily to have to go through the work to do the thing, although obviously that's what everyone has to do. So to shortcut it, to make people feel comfortable and confident that they're in the right place, and this is the obvious next step. That's really the path to move it through quickly. \n\nChris: And then, stuart, continuing on that is that once you say, hey, go here to get this, then we put them into a funnel so they get additional touches from us and again it just shows that we're adding value. And in my particular case, I think as individual bankers the ultimate would be to get the planner. But so I'll give them opportunity, but I will continue that funnel and then eventually they'll go into the overall mailing campaign. But at least that initial touch is they get more than just hey, here's this, and we remind them. And so, look, I mean, people like yourself and Dean have perfected this over the years and so we're just learning from the very best to make sure that we take advantage of that opportunity with the back of the book to create a funnel. \n\nStuart: That point you made there about that. \n\nThere is the initial funnel because it's attributing the book to real life activities and actions and signals from out there in the world. \n\nYou're there, head of the castle of what you do, looking over the power pits down at the world below, and there's groups of people and some of them are raising their hand and saying I'm interested to some degree to be able to identify those and then follow up and then use all of the other marketing opportunities, like the Harvard studies like that, where it was seven the average is seven point something steps in order for someone to take an activity, even if they're the most interested. \n\nThe benefit of having the book is that you've now got a framework and a talking point and a consistent message that's a consistent for them to consume but be easy for you to create, rather than having to sit there and think I need to create seven touch points and it could be anything Having seven things that amplify and go deeper and talk about the content that's in the book. The seven steps actually sevens are coming up a lot, particularly because you've got seven ends and then seven touch points. I mean even that is self evident that it's just one message per touch point and then you get into that that comprehensive view. You know. \n\nChris: Stuart, that's a great point. And there's an old expression you know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I can't tell you. I can't tell you how many times I have heard and seen Dean Jackson talk about 90 minute books. This student wasn't ready, but when I was ready he was still there and that's look. You know Dean has done a lot of research on how long it takes for somebody about the right now buyer and the future buyer. In the overwhelming majority of people are future buyers, so you have to be in in front of them on a consistent basis, adding value. Again, the book is the launch, but then you also. We know people aren't going to just roll over because you wrote a book, but how do you stay in front of them? \n\nStuart: It's why we love podcasts so much, because as business owners, we've only got so much time in the day, but most of us, if we've been in business for any matter of time, can talk probably more than people to listen sometimes about our subject because we're passionate about it. That's why we're still in business, that's why we start businesses in the first place, and we've got such a wealth of knowledge that putting it in a podcast form gives you an opportunity to send an email to everyone on the list, adding value. Hey, we just released a new new episode. We're talking with this about developing and building those relationships. By the way, if you're ready to get well, every ready to get started is three ways we can help you. Or PS is we just enter in November. Now is a great time to get the book started in order to have it ready for the new year and hit 2024 running. So that idea of staying in touch with people until they're ready, because you can never know. \n\nI talk a lot about the book that's called one bat selling by an Australian guy called Malcolm Gleason. \n\nI think it's an old book, I think it just came back into print. \n\nIt was unavailable for a while, but he is a I'm going to butcher this slightly but he's a sales team training person and his main thing is sales teams often fail because they incentivize people to close. \n\nAnd it's always this Glenn, gary, glenn, last fight, always be closing, but the closing decision unless you're using some of the various tactics to really kind of force the other party the closing decision is in the hand of the client. They choose whether to today is the day for them or not. But as a salesperson, as someone responsible for new business, the thing that you have control of is the touch points, the outreach, the reminders that you exist, the adding value, and I guess actually, as we're talking about it, that is some of the things that you talk about in the book as well, because that kind of proactive outreach, there's a crossover between those two ideas, but, yeah, this idea of keeping in touch with people and then, ideally, you'll be reaching out at the same time that they have the thought or get to the stage where, oh yeah, today is the day and we can move forward. \n\nChris: I want to just take a quick question. It's interesting. It's interesting you mentioned that because in the business banking and commercial banking world, a business changes banks every five to seven years. So think about that. Why, okay, you know, I mean, so it's not a one call close, and so what a banker has to do is obviously add value along the way to where the blister pops, you know, in the relationship with the other bank. But what tends to happen we've all been guilty of this we get really excited about going after a prospect, things. Nothing happened. So we say I'm going to take a break. Well, if that in this, my particular example of the business changes banks while they're taking a break, they got another five to seven years to wait. So that's why it has to be consistent into your point and the example about the person Australia. Boy, you got to stay in front of them because if you add value, they're going to recognize you. They'll eventually become your customer or client. Doesn't always happen on your timeframe, but it will happen in front of them. \n\nStuart: And as you were talking about adding value all the way through the, if sometimes people think of, I've heard people say that they want to cut the weed out of the list or cut the chat phone. Just get to the people. I'm only interested in talking with qualified buyers. Well, the whole thing. You don't know who, that you can't tell who that person is. For the in the long arc of history you can't tell exactly who that person is. And the good thing about the broadcast mechanism so we've got now it's not like you have to hand write a letter to each person. So if you've got 10 people on list versus a hundred, well, the other 90, that becomes a big overhead. We're emailing people or we're creating podcasts or we're using social media and it's broadcasting to everyone at once. So having those people on the list, talking to those people in the hope that they do become a client, but knowing that not all of them are it really kind of changes that focus Told before the story of Kenny, a real estate that we work with in up in Cape Town, up in Boston. \n\nSo he purged he's. We've worked with him for years. He's a great personal friend. He's down here quite a lot. He purged his list. He wanted to get rid of people who hadn't really responded in five years. So he purged the list and then about seven or eight months later got a call from someone. They left a voicemail so he played as a voicemail. He's the guy on the phone said Kenny, it's Bobby, I'm so glad that I found your number. Something must have happened, I'm sorry. Some reason I got off your mailing list. Anyway, unfortunately my sister died recently so we've got two properties that we're selling, oceanfront properties, so I had to call around a few other agents in town to get your number. Anyway, give me a call back. Kenny purged the list cause he'd never responded, been on the list for eight years. I think we went back and checked eight years nothing, no sign of life. But he'd just been there receiving that value and then, when the time was right for him, he raised his hand. \n\nSo this idea that there was no dead leads in the 90 minute book my brother's in there as an example, because it's a high dollar example. It's always funny to read. So he's a yacht broker down in Fort Lauderdale inherited the office of a broker who had passed away. So in the office there was filing cabinets and one file was labeled dead leads and it was just chocked full of like little pieces of paper from boat shows over the years where people fill in their details and stick it in. But he reached out to these dead leads with a nine word email hey, you're still looking for a boat. And then a hundred and eighty six million dollar contracts came off the back of it. \n\nSo this idea of there is no such thing as dead leads, it's just people who it's not quite the right time for them. It's such an opportunity to reach back out to them, which circles back to the ways that you were talking about using the book, that folder of you. Talk about reaching out to past clients. There's also all of the people who are past prospects and maybe the dead list of those past prospects. Now it might not be worth financially sending them a copy of it. You might have their details, but reaching back out with an email to those people and saying, ok, we just have brought together. From the years of experience we've brought together in this plan of issues like copy, let me know that's a whole opportunity there, with the existing clients sending them the book and also saying, ok, if you know anyone else in the business. This is perhaps great for people who are one or two years in and are really looking to make a difference, using that as a referral opportunity, the opportunity to reach out. \n\nWe've got this concept of known prospects and unknown prospects. So the banking organization people that's a known group of people. So sending the book to those known group, like you mentioned, but then including a cover letter in there. Same with speaking from stage, it's a known audience, so giving them a copy of the book but including a cover letter in there, that just makes it more personal. \n\nThe idea of kind of amplifying the asset is here, but you can amplify it for each of the individual situations. By the way that you present it such a good opportunity because it's created. Now you're just looking for the opportunities that you can best use it. It's always fascinating to hear people talk about how they plan to use it and then down the track, how they have used it, because it opens up. I think, as people are listening to this, many people have had the well, everyone who's listening to this really has had the idea that a book would be good for them because that's why they're on the list in the first place. But there's that reluctance or times busy, so hearing you talk about it, hopefully, is then figuring their memory or their idea of how they can actually use it in real time. \n\nChris: Yeah, stuart, it's a great point because you know I've self-published five books and you know it's not backbreaking labor but it's time-intensive and it can be frustrating at times. So when I was thinking about this book, I said I like the idea of the book, but I don't know if I want to go through that all again, which is when, then, I decided to take advantage of the who, not the how, with 90-minute books. And I tell you what? That is one of the best checks I've ever written in my entire life. And I have to tell you I have to praise your team. You know, christy reached out to me and she did the pre-planning call in the actual interview and what a joy she is. I mean she, I mean brings so much energy and so much joy to the conversation that I was. I didn't want to let her go after we finished the interview. She's just such a great person. \n\nAnd then, almost immediately, godwin put together the cover of my book and I had a suggestion, but it was just so spot on that I was looking for, he was so responsive. And then Kim did the heavy lifting, you know, with the editing. And so I'm sitting here thinking my goodness, and I've already got the idea for the next book will be under contract before the end of the year to do a second book, and I see a third book sometime next year. It is just a great way to get your message out, and I want to go back to something you said about getting our message in front of an audience. Yes, I could send a brochure, a letter, anything else, to all of the people I talked about, but to have that book attached to that letter is powerful, and I know you've said this many times on their podcast. \n\nIsn't it interesting that the word author is contained in the word authority, so that credibility and that authority that creates when they get that book right, even if they don't read it. But they're saying, hey, here's somebody who wrote a book. So the I really encourage anybody who's on the fence, go ahead and take the leap. I mean, the people at 90 minute books are absolutely amazing. They make your life so easy. And so, stuart, I hope you pass that along to the three people that I touched in your organization Christy, godwin and Kim. They made it a delightful experience. \n\nStuart: That's it. I mean, that's always good to hear I was joking a little bit before we started recording that starting their calls with authors was really just to share that story, but it's almost become a vanity project. If you're having people say good things, it makes me once a week feel good hearing hearing that back. Absolutely, I'll pass it on Because with the team being remote it's always and not an extra effort, but we have to remember to make it extra effort to share the good news as well as facing up on things that need to be just day to day needs to be finished quicker. \n\nChris: So yeah, I'll definitely pass it on and make sure that they listen to the episode so they can hear you in the words straight from you and then hopefully, stuart, that the one I do the other book you'll invite me back on, we'll talk about that book and I'll give you the results of all the marketing I've done with this particular book. \n\nStuart: Yeah, absolutely, I mean definitely. So we've been focused on, as we've been reaching out to people to record the last six or seven months worth of podcasts, as we've done more and more author calls. We've been reaching out Obviously. We've done a thousand or so books now. So we've got a lot of people that we were reaching out to for the first time. \n\nBut I've got it on the calendar for the new year to absolutely touch back in with people who have been on the show previously, because it's a nature of the beast, when we were thinking about, okay, who can we reach out to to about on the show, it tends to be the most recent back. We kind of just because that's where Betsy's been scheduling a lot of these, so that's just where our mind is the most recent back. So it's there's only a couple of we've had where we've really been talking about the campaign and the actually reaching out and using them in specific circumstances. So what I'd really love to do in a few months time is circle back with people who have used them at live events, who have sent them out to previous customers, who have got the list of the organization people and used it as outreach, because I think, as we get more and more of those tangible results that we can share with people. Again, it just closes that gap. \n\nLike with your book, we would start off by saying that most people have got an understanding that they need to be more proactive and having some structure and organization would make their results better. But it's just remembering to get around to it. The same with the people on our list. They've had the idea that a book is a great way of generating more business and establishing that credibility and authority. But when they hear the specific stories, hopefully, then it's easier to make that connection and encourage them to get off the fence and get it done. Where can people follow along and perhaps get a copy of the book or hear more about what you're doing? I want to make sure people have got the opportunity to do that. \n\nChris: So thank you for that, stuart. Well, I mean specifically the book they can go to bankingon success bookcom. The planner is banking on success plannercom and then our overall organization, the relationship bankingacademycom will get you a bigger overview of what we do. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. And then in terms of the breadth you're talking about kind of the medium sized banking organization. This is the absolute sweet spot. But obviously either side of that people can get value from it. It's just that's not necessarily that reach Geographically all of North America. Do you go and say Canada as well? \n\nChris: No, just North America. And what's really interesting, you know, back in the day, the only way we could deliver what was just get on an airplane, jump up and down for a couple days and fly home. And with COVID, I mean, people are so much more receptive, you know, to Zoom. You know type meetings, and so we're doing a lot of great follow up teaching with using Zoom, because people can't have us, you know, on campus every single day but to be able to maybe do a bootcamp, get them indoctrinated and then continue the learning, you know, via Zoom. So I think that you know Zoom and all of their competitors have really done a good service to people in our particular industry to be able to deliver content more frequently at a very effective price. So, yes, we travel over the country, work with banks all over the country, but we definitely take advantage of this type of technology. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that's such a great point as well, isn't it? Because now it's able to deliver value further down the chain. So, in the same way that you might have to charge people 100 units of money to come in for that extended period and be on site, now for those same 100 units you can do something in person but then include some follow up, which really from the effectiveness of what you're trying to deliver. I imagine that regular follow up or check in further down the track or the opportunity for people to join office hours or whatever the mechanism is, but to be able to deliver value beyond just the initial scope of a piece of work just makes it far more effective and a better outcome for the individuals and the organizations. \n\nChris: No doubt, because I mean, when you do a one day or two day or three day training, everybody gets excited I'm going to change the world. Then they get a phone call from their most important customer who is ticked off at them and they forget everything they just learned. So you have to have that repetition to reinforce what was taught in a live environment. \n\nStuart: Right. Actually it often happens on these calls as I'm talking. It's triggering things that I've got on a list that I've been meaning to do, and if I actually put a date next to each of the items, it would probably be embarrassing how long ago it was that I thought about it, but the A period of time ago I was thinking we should do the similar here, in the sense that it really makes sense. The podcasts are great, but it's talking one on one. It would probably be beneficial to have an office hours type environment within 90 minute. Books for current clients and past clients. Hey, we're just here to answer any questions. Do it once a month, jump on and just have it as an open call for an hour or two and then, if people have got questions about the books or the campaigns or the audience. So I'm glad when this came up in conversation because it's just reminding me that something that we really should kick off. \n\nAnd now that I've said it publicly on the podcast, hopefully the accountability to get out there, and that goes fast. As always on these shows, we'll make sure that we put links to the books and to the Academy in the show notes so as people are listening to this or watching along in the video. Either check on the website below or in the podcast notes and then people can click straight through. It will absolutely be a pleasure to have you back on in a couple of months and then talk about another book that we're thinking about and talk about the actual usage of this one and what the results have been. Everyone that's listening really encouraged you to follow the links and check in on Chris and what he's doing. Chris, thanks for your time. Thanks for the kind words as well. I know that the team and the audience are going to get a lot from this, so just want to say thanks again and look forward to catch up with you in the next one. \n\nChris: So, stuart, thank you, it was a real honor. Thanks, Perfect Thanks for watching and we'll catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today, on the Book More Show, we're talking with Chris Carlson, a seasoned coach for regional bank teams and author of "Banking on Success - 7 Keys to Extraordinary Success in Relationship Banking."
\n\nOne of the most valuable ways to start a conversation is by helping people with something they are struggling with today. As a coach, Chris can analyse specific sales challenges and prescribe just the right tool, but his book starts the conversation in an easy-to-understand, universally applicable way with 7 steps everyone can benefit from. Rather than telling people they're doing it wrong or going deep into the psychology of sales calls, he helps people take an actionable step and provides a prominent call to action to continue the journey.
\n\nThis is a great call as we dive into his perspective on using books and platforms like LinkedIn for business outreach, and we discuss the significance of consistent client contact and developing relationships over time, something that's easy to overlook in a 'get new leads' driven world.
\n\nChris brings a lot to this call. Whether you've finished your book or have it on the list to start before the year ends, there are some great ideas to steal here.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/154
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nChris: Chris how are you doing? I'm doing great, stuart. Thanks for the opportunity to talk to you today.
\n\nStuart: I'm excited to jump on and dive into some things because you're following through with the book and you've got it out there in a way that's particularly interesting. So we'll make sure that we touch on all of that life cycle. But I think it's going to be really valuable for people listening in, either if they have a book themselves already, to look at the way that you're using it in a slightly more longer funnel or broader funnel, or if people are thinking about writing a book. I know this isn't the only book that you've written. So as we cover some of those stories about how books have helped you in your marketing, I think it's going to be great. Hopefully, encouragement to help people get started before the end of the year and then they can really hit 2024 on the road. So I think we start from the beginning. Give everyone a little bit of background of view and their organization there.
\n\nChris: Yeah, great.
\n\nAnd people, like a lot of people you know, went to college, had the opportunity to spend four years in the army as an officer, came out and I spent the first 19 years of my what I call my civilian career on the insurance business, working my way up from a local rep all the way to a national sales manager and then 20 plus years ago.
\n\nI mean, my affinity has always been coaching and I went into the coaching business and have been focused on the financial services arena those 20 plus years. But being laser, being focused on the banking industry and our organization, the Relationship Banking Academy, is we work with what I would call regional sized banks. You know that have some heft to them in terms of personnel and so we're not working with the smallest of banks, although we have and we've worked with the biggest of banks. But we found that our niche is in that regional bank where they definitely need help with coaching and training and we really believe that our systems and processes, you know, really help them. So really excited to be able to specialize in that space and go really deep with those organizations.
\n\nStuart: It's interesting, isn't it, when people talk about specialization, because there's always this and we're guilty of it as well here always this risk of or concern around missing out or losing other business. But the reality is when you can really dial in the message that talks specifically to the audience, and then obviously you pick up business on either side. It's not like you're turning those people away, but talking about niching and specializing. It's really just in that outreach and the communication side of things. So picking up on the slightly smaller or slightly large ones, but understanding that it's the sweet spot in the middle, and I guess one of the reasons for that is because that's where you can make a real, the biggest difference. The challenge in the smallest end is that they're constrained on resources, both people and money, and at the bigger end they're constrained by processes and systems and just the corporate message. So I guess it's really that middle bit that you can make a difference to.
\n\nChris: It definitely has worked for us, and one of the things I learned a long time ago through failing is you can't boil the ocean. Although I love the words that you use fear and missing out. We think, oh, we miss one opportunity. But the reality is, if you say yes to something, then you got to say no to something else, and so I think it's very important that, whatever line of work that you're in, that you really understand who your target market is and we talk about that actually in the book of being laser beam focused on your markets, if that's going to get you further faster.
\n\nStuart: Right, that's a good transition into the book. So then this idea of sharing with them the ideas, that starts the conversation that they can have with you. So the book titled banking on success, talk a little bit about the audience for that and kind of where in that funnel of talking with these medium sized organizations that the book comes in and then conversation, yeah, so it's a great question, stuart, and when we work with the banks, our customers typically we're working with business bankers and commercial bankers.
\n\nChris: We are not called in that often to work with the retail side of the bank. You know those branches. If you will Doesn't mean that we don't occasionally work with them. So I was really thinking about that business banker, commercial banker audience where they're out there calling on businesses, calling on professionals, calling on large organizations to help them in their financial journey.
\n\nAnd what I know is that the overwhelming majority of bankers that I run into they're hardworking and caring and individuals, but unfortunately, with so many things coming at them, they tend to be very reactive. And what I've noticed is the very best bankers, the most successful bankers, obviously they have to react, but they have put together proactive systems and proactive plans which allow them to rise and they're the cream in the crop. And I said, okay, so how do I get that message out, you know, to a broader audience? And that's where I kind of came up with the idea of the seven keys and then I transferred that into the seven m's and so I have seven m's that I share in my book about what I really think that a banker needs to do proactively to achieve extraordinary results.
\n\nStuart: It's interesting because I think it's such a. It's such an idea that isn't new for people. The broad idea, not the specifics. The broad idea of being proactive. It's more beneficial in terms of kind of orchestrating the results and planning ahead of time. And everyone says that it's more cost effective and time effective to kind of plan it rather than react to it.
\n\nBut I would say for the majority, the vast majority of business owners, of people who are responsible for filling their own book, the reality is that just the day to day, defy of burning, means that we're way more reactive than we want to. So to be in your position of not necessarily having to sell the concept, because that's understood, but selling the way of the introduction to the idea of achieving it, it's an interesting position. It's not necessarily creating the manifesto of why being proactive or why orchestrating things is a good idea, but more along, this is how to do it. You've tried to do it before perhaps, and fails. This is a better, more straightforward, a simple way of doing it. Is that right in the way that you find, when dealing with the people, that is an idea that they've got already, or is that just my guilt coming out, because I know I should be better at it myself.
\n\nChris: You know, stuart, I think there's an old expression. I know you've heard it many times. You know about the guide from the side as opposed to the sage from the stage, and I think there's so many sages out there. But what really has to happen and this is true even for the most successful people is they still need that guidance to make sure that they don't chase squirrels and they stay true to their mission. And that's why, you know, people like you and Dean Jackson and Dan Sullivan exist, because even the best, most successful people still need that guidance so they can latch on to a concept. But who's holding them accountable, or what tools are there to hold them accountable? So I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to take the first step with the book is kind of overall view, but then let's go deeper on how you actually accomplish some of these things that you want to accomplish.
\n\nStuart: Right, just on that point quickly. That's so true. I've never particularly thought about it in that way before and that's saying I can try and remember that saying because that's the first time I've heard that. But true in the sense that I've just started working with some LinkedIn guys who I've known for some time and it was almost a. We talked about this idea of you can book through a great way of reaching out to people and getting them on the list, and then you need a way of staying in touch with people over the longer duration, because most people, or a lot of people, aren't ready to go today, but they are ready to go at some point in the future and you just need to marry up.
\n\nMy experience with the LinkedIn guys is exactly that.
\n\nI've known and our business absolute, almost 100% crossover with LinkedIn in terms of a lead generation and an audience, and it's something that I've been so lacks on doing, and it's not because I don't really know what to do or have ideas around doing it, it's just our time and other fires have come up.
\n\nSo happening to have a conversation with a friend that reminded me of these people and then starting that conversation and engaging them to be accountable and do some of the work a little bit, and I've been doing these books yourself before. It's not like you can't do it. It's not rocket science I would say that to people. But still engaging someone else to do it gives you almost a line of the sand and a reason to do it now, and I guess that's the same with your business and the people that you're talking with. I'm sure this isn't the first time that they've ever thought about it. But having you there to give the direction, to remove the distractions and almost to focus in on the points that make a difference and the funny things around it, that might not be as effective, but you can really laser focus them on what they need to do. The people who you're having that first conversation with, is that the bank, the relationship bankers themselves, or is that more of a HR department or training department in the organizations?
\n\nChris: Yeah, that's a great question, and so traditionally it has been those learning and development organizations within a bank, or maybe there's a higher ranking executive that I run into that gets me in touch with them, so that tends to be where we spend most of our time. But that was the conundrum that I had, stuart, when I was writing this book. I said, okay, that's great, but there's over 4000 banks in this country and I'm not going to talk to the vast majority of those learning and development departments. So how can I help the individual banker who's bank may not know me and or may not want to invest in our particular programs? And that's why, as I started to come with the ideas in the book, I said, ok, theory is great, but I got to have something else, and that's where I came up, and I didn't.
\n\nI did these two things simultaneously. I created the banking on success planner. So we take all the ideas that we talk about in the book and then we lay it out to allow them to develop the strategy. And then part of the planner is daily activity, because, let's face it, we all have grandiose goals and you know, there's the old expression it's hard by the yard, it's cinched by the inch. And so what I do is I break it down to a daily activity with the most important things they need to do, based upon the strategies that they implemented on the learnings from the book. So to your point yes, I'm talking to a lot of learning development, but I had to figure out a way. How do I touch those tens and tens and tens and tens of thousands of bankers potentially? But I can help them individually if they want to go forward, even if their bank is not going to do something.
\n\nStuart: That's such a great balance between the two and we often talk about books. Think of them as, rather than in the traditional sense of a book, is this big thing that takes forever to write and once you've written it, that's, it's set in stone. Instead, think about books as almost like a campaign tool, almost like you would in Facebook ads. This tool is fit for this particular campaign and the campaign steps through to these people. So the idea of having some outreach tools that you've got which are focused on learning and development, hr, those types of level of the organization and what they're, because they're, they're criteria or their objectives, that what they're rewarded on their motivations are going to be different from the individuals. But what you've described is having both of those approaches in different ways.
\n\nYou already have those conversations. Who already got access to those 4,000 or so organizations? But to be able to speak to the individual in a way that's much more tangible and actionable and follow through. And then the planner is backed up by the ideas that are in the book and the book is backed up by action steps they can take in the planner. It's very synergistic in the sense that it's one campaign moving people in one direction, but the two slightly different access points into it. Talk a little bit about how these, how the bank is out there. Then again, visibility of either the book or the planner Is this something that you've got an opportunity to kind of like direct send to them because you can get a list of who they are or the shows and events where they can get access to it, or speaking opportunities that introduce into the idea? What's the access to those people with the tools?
\n\nChris: Yeah, I mean so a lot of things. No matter what tools we develop, is we still have to put together a marketing plan, right? Because just because we publish a book, people aren't lined up outside the office saying, well, I can't wait to get a copy of your book. So you know, one of the things that I've started out certainly the lowest hanging fruit for me with the book and the planner is current and past customers and clients. You know. So what I'm doing is I'm taking a copy of the book and taking a copy of the planner, putting it in a priority mail envelope and sending it to current and past customers and saying, hey, here's what we got. You might be interested. If so, give me a call. They already know, they already know me to know who I am, they know what I can do. So that's going to spur some activity. And maybe that's a speaking engagement. Maybe that's they order many copies of the book and or planner. Maybe they say, hey, chris, we'd like to go deeper with you if we have a current relationship or we want to reengage you. So that's really to me that the always hanging a fruit.
\n\nNow I'm also fortunate enough to have, you know, several speaking engagement throughout the course of the year. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to take of enough copies for everybody in the audience of the book, right, and give it away. Give it away and I got to make a comment is when I receive my 20 books from 90 minute books in a bow, by the way, which I am afraid to untie because it's so beautiful, but you guys included another book beyond the book, right? And one of the things that Dean talked about in the book is you're not going to make any money selling your book. Give it away, that's how you're going to get further faster. So in speaking engagements, I'm just going to give a copy to everybody who's in my audience, be it a small audience, be a big audience, they get something.
\n\nThen every state in this country has a banking association and that banking association puts on events throughout the course of the year A lot of webinars, maybe one or two live events. So I'm taking a copy of the book, I'm writing a letter and I'm basically saying, hey, here's a copy of my book and here are three talks that I put together as a result of the material in the books. And, if I can ever be of assistance, reach out to me and I know that some will reach out to me, some won't, but I'm going to people who I can have get me in front of a broader audience. And then I talked about that that target my regional banks. I'm going to send a postcard to the appropriate person, you know, promoting the book and the planner. And then, finally, I also have the great fortune to teach at several banking schools across the country and, like I said with my other speaking engagements, I'm going to take a copy of the book, give it to everybody.
\n\nAnd because, what's not? Only does the book give them great information and, stuart, here's what I think is brilliant about what you guys do is, when you turn that book over and you look at the back cover, three ways that they can engage, you know, with the author. In my particular case, you know they can go to the book's website and I give them a PDF about how to do a better job of marketing. They also can go to the website and they get a video of how they can develop and deepen better relationships with centers of influence. And then, finally, I have a link to the banking on success planner. They can buy the planner. So the brilliance of that, because we know a lot of people just look at their front cover, turn it over. But now they've got three ways they can continue the conversation with me and that could be either the learning development people or it could be an individual banker.
\n\nStuart: There's such a great point about people just really 100% of people see the front of it, 90 something percent people see the back and then it's a diminishing curve from the table of contents through the, through the content itself.
\n\nBecause, Particularly, this isn't. We're not writing books where the book is the product and people are buying the book like they would a Tom Clancy novel or whatever the latest best-selling author is there. The job of work of the book isn't to entertain, although hopefully it's entertaining, but the job of work isn't to entertain. The job of work is to start the conversation and people putting their hand up and requesting it. If they could have a button next to it where they pressed the button and it was like a matrix all the information is downloaded into their brain they would choose that because it's the outcome that they want not necessarily to have to go through the work to do the thing, although obviously that's what everyone has to do. So to shortcut it, to make people feel comfortable and confident that they're in the right place, and this is the obvious next step. That's really the path to move it through quickly.
\n\nChris: And then, stuart, continuing on that is that once you say, hey, go here to get this, then we put them into a funnel so they get additional touches from us and again it just shows that we're adding value. And in my particular case, I think as individual bankers the ultimate would be to get the planner. But so I'll give them opportunity, but I will continue that funnel and then eventually they'll go into the overall mailing campaign. But at least that initial touch is they get more than just hey, here's this, and we remind them. And so, look, I mean, people like yourself and Dean have perfected this over the years and so we're just learning from the very best to make sure that we take advantage of that opportunity with the back of the book to create a funnel.
\n\nStuart: That point you made there about that.
\n\nThere is the initial funnel because it's attributing the book to real life activities and actions and signals from out there in the world.
\n\nYou're there, head of the castle of what you do, looking over the power pits down at the world below, and there's groups of people and some of them are raising their hand and saying I'm interested to some degree to be able to identify those and then follow up and then use all of the other marketing opportunities, like the Harvard studies like that, where it was seven the average is seven point something steps in order for someone to take an activity, even if they're the most interested.
\n\nThe benefit of having the book is that you've now got a framework and a talking point and a consistent message that's a consistent for them to consume but be easy for you to create, rather than having to sit there and think I need to create seven touch points and it could be anything Having seven things that amplify and go deeper and talk about the content that's in the book. The seven steps actually sevens are coming up a lot, particularly because you've got seven ends and then seven touch points. I mean even that is self evident that it's just one message per touch point and then you get into that that comprehensive view. You know.
\n\nChris: Stuart, that's a great point. And there's an old expression you know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I can't tell you. I can't tell you how many times I have heard and seen Dean Jackson talk about 90 minute books. This student wasn't ready, but when I was ready he was still there and that's look. You know Dean has done a lot of research on how long it takes for somebody about the right now buyer and the future buyer. In the overwhelming majority of people are future buyers, so you have to be in in front of them on a consistent basis, adding value. Again, the book is the launch, but then you also. We know people aren't going to just roll over because you wrote a book, but how do you stay in front of them?
\n\nStuart: It's why we love podcasts so much, because as business owners, we've only got so much time in the day, but most of us, if we've been in business for any matter of time, can talk probably more than people to listen sometimes about our subject because we're passionate about it. That's why we're still in business, that's why we start businesses in the first place, and we've got such a wealth of knowledge that putting it in a podcast form gives you an opportunity to send an email to everyone on the list, adding value. Hey, we just released a new new episode. We're talking with this about developing and building those relationships. By the way, if you're ready to get well, every ready to get started is three ways we can help you. Or PS is we just enter in November. Now is a great time to get the book started in order to have it ready for the new year and hit 2024 running. So that idea of staying in touch with people until they're ready, because you can never know.
\n\nI talk a lot about the book that's called one bat selling by an Australian guy called Malcolm Gleason.
\n\nI think it's an old book, I think it just came back into print.
\n\nIt was unavailable for a while, but he is a I'm going to butcher this slightly but he's a sales team training person and his main thing is sales teams often fail because they incentivize people to close.
\n\nAnd it's always this Glenn, gary, glenn, last fight, always be closing, but the closing decision unless you're using some of the various tactics to really kind of force the other party the closing decision is in the hand of the client. They choose whether to today is the day for them or not. But as a salesperson, as someone responsible for new business, the thing that you have control of is the touch points, the outreach, the reminders that you exist, the adding value, and I guess actually, as we're talking about it, that is some of the things that you talk about in the book as well, because that kind of proactive outreach, there's a crossover between those two ideas, but, yeah, this idea of keeping in touch with people and then, ideally, you'll be reaching out at the same time that they have the thought or get to the stage where, oh yeah, today is the day and we can move forward.
\n\nChris: I want to just take a quick question. It's interesting. It's interesting you mentioned that because in the business banking and commercial banking world, a business changes banks every five to seven years. So think about that. Why, okay, you know, I mean, so it's not a one call close, and so what a banker has to do is obviously add value along the way to where the blister pops, you know, in the relationship with the other bank. But what tends to happen we've all been guilty of this we get really excited about going after a prospect, things. Nothing happened. So we say I'm going to take a break. Well, if that in this, my particular example of the business changes banks while they're taking a break, they got another five to seven years to wait. So that's why it has to be consistent into your point and the example about the person Australia. Boy, you got to stay in front of them because if you add value, they're going to recognize you. They'll eventually become your customer or client. Doesn't always happen on your timeframe, but it will happen in front of them.
\n\nStuart: And as you were talking about adding value all the way through the, if sometimes people think of, I've heard people say that they want to cut the weed out of the list or cut the chat phone. Just get to the people. I'm only interested in talking with qualified buyers. Well, the whole thing. You don't know who, that you can't tell who that person is. For the in the long arc of history you can't tell exactly who that person is. And the good thing about the broadcast mechanism so we've got now it's not like you have to hand write a letter to each person. So if you've got 10 people on list versus a hundred, well, the other 90, that becomes a big overhead. We're emailing people or we're creating podcasts or we're using social media and it's broadcasting to everyone at once. So having those people on the list, talking to those people in the hope that they do become a client, but knowing that not all of them are it really kind of changes that focus Told before the story of Kenny, a real estate that we work with in up in Cape Town, up in Boston.
\n\nSo he purged he's. We've worked with him for years. He's a great personal friend. He's down here quite a lot. He purged his list. He wanted to get rid of people who hadn't really responded in five years. So he purged the list and then about seven or eight months later got a call from someone. They left a voicemail so he played as a voicemail. He's the guy on the phone said Kenny, it's Bobby, I'm so glad that I found your number. Something must have happened, I'm sorry. Some reason I got off your mailing list. Anyway, unfortunately my sister died recently so we've got two properties that we're selling, oceanfront properties, so I had to call around a few other agents in town to get your number. Anyway, give me a call back. Kenny purged the list cause he'd never responded, been on the list for eight years. I think we went back and checked eight years nothing, no sign of life. But he'd just been there receiving that value and then, when the time was right for him, he raised his hand.
\n\nSo this idea that there was no dead leads in the 90 minute book my brother's in there as an example, because it's a high dollar example. It's always funny to read. So he's a yacht broker down in Fort Lauderdale inherited the office of a broker who had passed away. So in the office there was filing cabinets and one file was labeled dead leads and it was just chocked full of like little pieces of paper from boat shows over the years where people fill in their details and stick it in. But he reached out to these dead leads with a nine word email hey, you're still looking for a boat. And then a hundred and eighty six million dollar contracts came off the back of it.
\n\nSo this idea of there is no such thing as dead leads, it's just people who it's not quite the right time for them. It's such an opportunity to reach back out to them, which circles back to the ways that you were talking about using the book, that folder of you. Talk about reaching out to past clients. There's also all of the people who are past prospects and maybe the dead list of those past prospects. Now it might not be worth financially sending them a copy of it. You might have their details, but reaching back out with an email to those people and saying, ok, we just have brought together. From the years of experience we've brought together in this plan of issues like copy, let me know that's a whole opportunity there, with the existing clients sending them the book and also saying, ok, if you know anyone else in the business. This is perhaps great for people who are one or two years in and are really looking to make a difference, using that as a referral opportunity, the opportunity to reach out.
\n\nWe've got this concept of known prospects and unknown prospects. So the banking organization people that's a known group of people. So sending the book to those known group, like you mentioned, but then including a cover letter in there. Same with speaking from stage, it's a known audience, so giving them a copy of the book but including a cover letter in there, that just makes it more personal.
\n\nThe idea of kind of amplifying the asset is here, but you can amplify it for each of the individual situations. By the way that you present it such a good opportunity because it's created. Now you're just looking for the opportunities that you can best use it. It's always fascinating to hear people talk about how they plan to use it and then down the track, how they have used it, because it opens up. I think, as people are listening to this, many people have had the well, everyone who's listening to this really has had the idea that a book would be good for them because that's why they're on the list in the first place. But there's that reluctance or times busy, so hearing you talk about it, hopefully, is then figuring their memory or their idea of how they can actually use it in real time.
\n\nChris: Yeah, stuart, it's a great point because you know I've self-published five books and you know it's not backbreaking labor but it's time-intensive and it can be frustrating at times. So when I was thinking about this book, I said I like the idea of the book, but I don't know if I want to go through that all again, which is when, then, I decided to take advantage of the who, not the how, with 90-minute books. And I tell you what? That is one of the best checks I've ever written in my entire life. And I have to tell you I have to praise your team. You know, christy reached out to me and she did the pre-planning call in the actual interview and what a joy she is. I mean she, I mean brings so much energy and so much joy to the conversation that I was. I didn't want to let her go after we finished the interview. She's just such a great person.
\n\nAnd then, almost immediately, godwin put together the cover of my book and I had a suggestion, but it was just so spot on that I was looking for, he was so responsive. And then Kim did the heavy lifting, you know, with the editing. And so I'm sitting here thinking my goodness, and I've already got the idea for the next book will be under contract before the end of the year to do a second book, and I see a third book sometime next year. It is just a great way to get your message out, and I want to go back to something you said about getting our message in front of an audience. Yes, I could send a brochure, a letter, anything else, to all of the people I talked about, but to have that book attached to that letter is powerful, and I know you've said this many times on their podcast.
\n\nIsn't it interesting that the word author is contained in the word authority, so that credibility and that authority that creates when they get that book right, even if they don't read it. But they're saying, hey, here's somebody who wrote a book. So the I really encourage anybody who's on the fence, go ahead and take the leap. I mean, the people at 90 minute books are absolutely amazing. They make your life so easy. And so, stuart, I hope you pass that along to the three people that I touched in your organization Christy, godwin and Kim. They made it a delightful experience.
\n\nStuart: That's it. I mean, that's always good to hear I was joking a little bit before we started recording that starting their calls with authors was really just to share that story, but it's almost become a vanity project. If you're having people say good things, it makes me once a week feel good hearing hearing that back. Absolutely, I'll pass it on Because with the team being remote it's always and not an extra effort, but we have to remember to make it extra effort to share the good news as well as facing up on things that need to be just day to day needs to be finished quicker.
\n\nChris: So yeah, I'll definitely pass it on and make sure that they listen to the episode so they can hear you in the words straight from you and then hopefully, stuart, that the one I do the other book you'll invite me back on, we'll talk about that book and I'll give you the results of all the marketing I've done with this particular book.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, absolutely, I mean definitely. So we've been focused on, as we've been reaching out to people to record the last six or seven months worth of podcasts, as we've done more and more author calls. We've been reaching out Obviously. We've done a thousand or so books now. So we've got a lot of people that we were reaching out to for the first time.
\n\nBut I've got it on the calendar for the new year to absolutely touch back in with people who have been on the show previously, because it's a nature of the beast, when we were thinking about, okay, who can we reach out to to about on the show, it tends to be the most recent back. We kind of just because that's where Betsy's been scheduling a lot of these, so that's just where our mind is the most recent back. So it's there's only a couple of we've had where we've really been talking about the campaign and the actually reaching out and using them in specific circumstances. So what I'd really love to do in a few months time is circle back with people who have used them at live events, who have sent them out to previous customers, who have got the list of the organization people and used it as outreach, because I think, as we get more and more of those tangible results that we can share with people. Again, it just closes that gap.
\n\nLike with your book, we would start off by saying that most people have got an understanding that they need to be more proactive and having some structure and organization would make their results better. But it's just remembering to get around to it. The same with the people on our list. They've had the idea that a book is a great way of generating more business and establishing that credibility and authority. But when they hear the specific stories, hopefully, then it's easier to make that connection and encourage them to get off the fence and get it done. Where can people follow along and perhaps get a copy of the book or hear more about what you're doing? I want to make sure people have got the opportunity to do that.
\n\nChris: So thank you for that, stuart. Well, I mean specifically the book they can go to bankingon success bookcom. The planner is banking on success plannercom and then our overall organization, the relationship bankingacademycom will get you a bigger overview of what we do.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. And then in terms of the breadth you're talking about kind of the medium sized banking organization. This is the absolute sweet spot. But obviously either side of that people can get value from it. It's just that's not necessarily that reach Geographically all of North America. Do you go and say Canada as well?
\n\nChris: No, just North America. And what's really interesting, you know, back in the day, the only way we could deliver what was just get on an airplane, jump up and down for a couple days and fly home. And with COVID, I mean, people are so much more receptive, you know, to Zoom. You know type meetings, and so we're doing a lot of great follow up teaching with using Zoom, because people can't have us, you know, on campus every single day but to be able to maybe do a bootcamp, get them indoctrinated and then continue the learning, you know, via Zoom. So I think that you know Zoom and all of their competitors have really done a good service to people in our particular industry to be able to deliver content more frequently at a very effective price. So, yes, we travel over the country, work with banks all over the country, but we definitely take advantage of this type of technology.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that's such a great point as well, isn't it? Because now it's able to deliver value further down the chain. So, in the same way that you might have to charge people 100 units of money to come in for that extended period and be on site, now for those same 100 units you can do something in person but then include some follow up, which really from the effectiveness of what you're trying to deliver. I imagine that regular follow up or check in further down the track or the opportunity for people to join office hours or whatever the mechanism is, but to be able to deliver value beyond just the initial scope of a piece of work just makes it far more effective and a better outcome for the individuals and the organizations.
\n\nChris: No doubt, because I mean, when you do a one day or two day or three day training, everybody gets excited I'm going to change the world. Then they get a phone call from their most important customer who is ticked off at them and they forget everything they just learned. So you have to have that repetition to reinforce what was taught in a live environment.
\n\nStuart: Right. Actually it often happens on these calls as I'm talking. It's triggering things that I've got on a list that I've been meaning to do, and if I actually put a date next to each of the items, it would probably be embarrassing how long ago it was that I thought about it, but the A period of time ago I was thinking we should do the similar here, in the sense that it really makes sense. The podcasts are great, but it's talking one on one. It would probably be beneficial to have an office hours type environment within 90 minute. Books for current clients and past clients. Hey, we're just here to answer any questions. Do it once a month, jump on and just have it as an open call for an hour or two and then, if people have got questions about the books or the campaigns or the audience. So I'm glad when this came up in conversation because it's just reminding me that something that we really should kick off.
\n\nAnd now that I've said it publicly on the podcast, hopefully the accountability to get out there, and that goes fast. As always on these shows, we'll make sure that we put links to the books and to the Academy in the show notes so as people are listening to this or watching along in the video. Either check on the website below or in the podcast notes and then people can click straight through. It will absolutely be a pleasure to have you back on in a couple of months and then talk about another book that we're thinking about and talk about the actual usage of this one and what the results have been. Everyone that's listening really encouraged you to follow the links and check in on Chris and what he's doing. Chris, thanks for your time. Thanks for the kind words as well. I know that the team and the audience are going to get a lot from this, so just want to say thanks again and look forward to catch up with you in the next one.
\n\nChris: So, stuart, thank you, it was a real honor. Thanks, Perfect Thanks for watching and we'll catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today, on the Book More Show, we're talking with Chris Carlson, a seasoned coach for regional bank teams and author of \"Banking on Success - 7 Keys to Extraordinary Success in Relationship Banking.\" \r\n\r\nOne of the most valuable ways to start a conversation is by helping people with something they are struggling with today. As a coach, Chris can analyse specific sales challenges and prescribe just the right tool, but his book starts the conversation in an easy-to-understand, universally applicable way with 7 steps everyone can benefit from. Rather than telling people they're doing it wrong or going deep into the psychology of sales calls, he helps people take an actionable step and provides a prominent call to action to continue the journey.\r\n\r\nThis is a great call as we dive into his perspective on using books and platforms like LinkedIn for business outreach, and we discuss the significance of consistent client contact and developing relationships over time, something that's easy to overlook in a 'get new leads' driven world.\r\n\r\nChris brings a lot to this call. Whether you've finished your book or have it on the list to start before the year ends, there are some great ideas to steal here.","date_published":"2023-12-06T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/b21d5e1e-3a83-4f81-ad54-e759e3cc16b3.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":25500437,"duration_in_seconds":2114}]},{"id":"182b1b77-26d2-461e-8f82-1d5c6461fb34","title":"Ep153: Convert More Leads with Dean Jackson","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/153","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, Dean and I catch up in the studio to talk about the power of non-traditional books to collect all the leads you need.\n\nCompared to the traditional approach of locking yourself away to write 1000 words a day, we talk about the benefits of a 'conversation-starting book' and how thinking about your book as a tool that powers a campaign can generate leads 1753 leads at just $3.53 per lead as we did in a recent Facebook ad.\n\nWe talk about the value of the everyday knowledge you already have and how asking the right questions can compel people to raise their hands; we debunk the myth that a book needs to be lengthy to be successful and discuss the impact of concise, impactful books that address potential clients' concerns.\n\nThis is a short, sharp shot of getting-it-done thinking!\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nWe discuss the potential of non-traditional books in the realm of lead generation\nDean reveals the secret of writing a book in just 30 days, and the power of book titles that resonate with your ideal prospects.\nWe highlight the impressive record of generating 1753 leads at just $3.53 per lead, and the strategy of generating leads for as little as $300.\nWe delve into the process of using a self-published book as a lead generation tool.\nStuart shares how he utilized the concept of a 'self-milking cow' to help people convert more leads.\nWe emphasize the value of daily knowledge and the craft of asking the right questions in lead generation.\nWe reflect on the influential book 'The Owner's Manual Through Your 40s' by Sean Phillips and his video with Bill, 'Body for Life'.\nWe explain the art of creating concise, impactful books that address the five burning questions in the minds of potential clients.\nWe debunk the myth that a book needs to be voluminous to be successful, emphasizing the fact that content trumps length.\nWe discuss the power of an attractive book title, effective marketing strategies, and the advantages of using a podcast to connect with potential clients.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nDean Jackson - LinkedIn\nDean Jackson\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/153\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nDean: Hey everybody, dean Jackson, Stuart Bell, here in World Headquarters, winter Haven, florida, excited. I want to you know this, a reason I you're here and I wanted to have this conversation because today is November 2nd, right, and I don't know if you know this or have heard of this tradition of nano-ri-mo. Do you know what that stands for? \n\nStuart: National national. Well, I'll trip everything. National novel writing month. \n\nDean: And all around the world, there are people who all year build up to this month where the idea is that you start writing on midnight 01 on November 1st and you have to stop writing at 59 on November 30th. And there's, you know, people all over the world get involved in this process and the thing that is, everybody builds up to this moment and do you know or wonder what the drop-off rate is by November 2nd? The number of people. The idea is that you're supposed to write 1,600 words a day. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nDean: Yeah, and do you know what the drop-off is of people who fall behind already on November 2nd? \n\nStuart: I haven't seen the numbers by any of you imagine it's a pretty dramatic Percipitus. Let's call it precipitus. Yeah, and you? \n\nDean: know, I started to think that because you end up. It strikes me, man, that's a lot of like effort and work to get to a point where you know you're going to. You know, hide yourself away in your cabin in the woods for a month and slave over, turn your phone off yeah exactly Drop out of society for all of these things and I really started realizing, man, there's such, you know. \n\nI look at right now, between now and the end of the year, the strides that somebody could make if, instead of slaving out trying to write a book traditionally, that we went through the process. The reason that I created that, we created the 90-minute book opportunity for people is to make it super easy for them so they didn't have to hold themselves away for 30 days, dropping out of society and counter to the traditional flow. Yeah. \n\nStuart: The outcome that we're looking for is business owners is to start the conversation, and the way to start the conversation happens to be a book, as the most effective way of doing it. \n\nDean: Right. \n\nStuart: But to flip that and get caught up in the whole product being the book in the traditional sense. It just kills so many people yeah. And we've heard of a podcast just before this one at the office with someone who's written five. \n\nDean: I'm going to look up something to show. Look at the numbers. \n\nStuart: So I was recording with Chris before Chris Carlson. He's written five books previously, himself not in a strictly traditional sense, but still not using those, and he said this process was the absolute easiest, most straightforward way to create the thing that gets him in conversation quicker, cheaper, faster, more to the point, given that the job of workers getting in conversation with potential clients- and. \n\nI think the challenge that people have is that they say book and in their mind pops up a certain thing and that certain thing is the traditional book, both in their outcome and the process. But the reality is the book just happens to be the most effective way to get into the conversation and if you can shortcut that and not get caught up and bogged down in all of the traditional. So I went through it. \n\nDean: So we went and went through this process where we did. I've been doing these lead conversion workshops and lead generation workshops, lead getting workshops, and part of the thing that I share with everybody of getting leads is the most reliable number one thing is a book that has a title that your ideal prospects say that's the book for me, right? So about 90 days ago I launched on the lead getting workshop. I went through the process with people to show exactly what, the how to do it right, and show that you could do it in 30 days and get the whole and get the whole thing settled. So I created a book called convert more leads what to say to prospects so they all convert themselves and conceived the idea by going through the book title formulas that we talk about. \n\nI'll talk about those in a second, but I went through that process with everybody and did the word palette and came up with that title convert more leads what to say to prospects so they all convert themselves. I had our designer Glenn do a wonderful cover where a guy's fishing with his hands behind his head and the fish are jumping in the boat. Right, that's the greatest thing. You're out fishing and the jumper the fish are jumping in the boat because that's, metaphorically, what we're doing. \n\nWe want your ideal prospects to jump into the boat and so in the last 60 days we launched that and we've generated 1753 leads for $3.53 per lead for those ideal prospects. \n\nRight Now that I look at it, that if I'm coming into somebody's business and I want to generate leads on a long, you know, on a sustainable basis, if they're serving this as a market, that's going to be in business for the next you know, several years that that's the business that they're in. So the first thing I would say is that if you're doing a hundred weeks is the benchmark that I'd say is I'm looking to say if we could generate leads for $300 or $500 or whatever it is. We just did a catalog with the bike shop here in Winterhaven. You know, doing business is if you can reliably, for $300, fill up a basket with a hundred leads, a hundred people who expressly and voluntarily raise their hand and said is there any doubt that anybody who downloaded a book called Convert More Leads what their desire is? It's pretty much it does what it says on the tin, right? That's the thing. \n\nStuart: There's no confusion about what they're getting. \n\nDean: They're clearly expressing pressure, and especially yeah, if somebody's putting together the e-bike catalog, the 2023 e-bike catalog, that's everybody. That's what they want right. \n\nSo thinking about this as a process, to know that, while all these people are hidden away in their hidey hole writing 1600 words a day, many of them not going to get to the finish line and chalk it up maybe next year we'll do the same thing. But, you know, while that's all happening, somebody we could get into the process of identify the, your audience. What's the title of the book that they would definitely want? \n\nStuart: And it's you know different. \n\nDean: if you're looking for invisible prospects or visible prospects, you know either way how. It's only about how you reach them, and this is the perfect way for gathering invisible prospects, and we've done it for everything from medical things, the A to Z. \n\nStuart: we've done accountants and we've done Zimbabwe and outsourcers. So literally a thousand books. I mean thank you so much for coming on board, because that allows me to use that metaphor Literally a thousand books. \n\nDean: Yes. \n\nStuart: There's not an industry that there's not an example for. \n\nDean: Right. \n\nStuart: And to be able to pivot those titles to specifically your case within that. So there's more than one CPA book out there, but each one of them is targeting a slightly different group. \n\nDean: Yes. \n\nStuart: There's more than one medical book out there, but targeting a separate group. \n\nSo, that first job of work in the sequence is, as you say, getting people to raise their hands. I want that, and then the conversation starts. The book is just the mechanism for moving it, that minimum, viable commitment, the next step in the chain. And to be able to do that in a way that where other people are locking themselves away trying to make this perfect piece before they even put it out in the world. Yes, it's like Mike Tyson Everyone's got a plan until I smack him in the face. Well, get your book out there. You get smacked in the face a few times by the real audience and then so you look at these things, these bundles We've already. \n\nDean: We've got 1,753 people on the Convert More Leads, some of whom have already signed up for our lead conversion workshop, which is a $2,500 workshop, and others that we have that will move into other things, come into a live breakthrough blueprint or working with me one-on-one. So the idea of the way I look at it is, if we take 1,000 leads for $3,000, how many of those people over the next 100 weeks am I going to be able to help convert more leads? It's such an amazing thing. And then on the next go round, we're creating a book called Get More Leads, so the two bookends of what somebody could need for their business. They're either generating leads and they need to convert them, or they need to get more leads so that they're ready to launch the conversion process. \n\nStuart: I think there's a lot of challenge that people have because they come to the idea of a book and a lot of people accept that it's a great lead generation tool but then get stuck in this traditional mindset of, okay, well, a book is this thing that authors write away, locking themselves in a cabin and it's difficult and challenging and you kind of PTSD back to homework and redlined from school and all of the challenge and trauma around it. I think so many people underestimate the value of just the knowledge that they've got from their day-to-day activities. I think because we're in the business every day, we undervalue just that basic conversation, starting ways of thinking about things. So instead of being a book would be good, but I do need to lock myself away to get this award-winning piece created. Instead, just ask yourself what are the questions that people ask when they stick? \n\ntheir head in the door, or when they phone up customer support, or when they what? \n\nDean: do they need to know to get that process? This is where all part of the whole genesis of the self-milking cow came from. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nDean: That years ago I was running a mastermind group and this is before we started 90-minute books. This was the genesis of 90-minute books that I was already. I had figured out how to write books by recording and transcribing and editing. That's how I did Stop. Your Divorce was the first one that we did like that. \n\nThen I did a book about how we did Stop your Divorce and a whole coaching program around that. But those I was sharing that with the mastermind group and then I was seeing people struggle with it brought up so many technical blocks. Then how do I record with or how do I get this transcribed and who's going to do the edit? How do I design the cover? How do I All these questions that were coming up that caused delay. \n\nStuart: Right, and I still remember the original. \n\nDean: I love, I say it. Sean Phillips was in the mastermind group, bill Phillips the brother, and did you ever meet Sean? \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nDean: Oh yeah, you're part of that too. Yeah, and he may be a guy who's more ADD than me, but he's super smart, knows so much stuff. Talk about what you were just saying. That it's all in there. And so I was coming home from London, I did an event in London, I was landed back in South Carolina, I was going to play some golf with Mike Hardwick at Kiowa and I woke up one morning early I was like 5 am because I was still on London time. It's kind of in a melatonin haze and I was thinking about Sean and I was thinking how you know? Because I just talked to him and he hadn't gotten made any progress and I realized he's got all the information. It's all in there. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nDean: He knows it. He could just hook a hose up to his brain and just suck all the information out. And all this, of course, is happening like quickly and the connections were made. I was thinking if I could just milk his brain and then that created this visualization of him as a cow and I realized in that world it's not a dairy cow but an idea cow, a money cow, cash cow. Yeah, and I. That really is what I thought that he's trying. The frustration is he's trying to milk himself, and that's really where the idea of the self-milking cow came from. I immediately proposed to him that I would help him. Do we do the interview process? And that book is still on Amazon today. It's called the Owner's Manual through your 40s and it still is. I mean, it's a great content. \n\nStuart: Yeah, sean, and I have spoken to him a few times. I love the book. Sean I don't know of Sean back from years ago, the Body of Life. \n\nDean: Yeah, Body for Life. \n\nStuart: Yeah, body for Life. He recorded a video with Bill. Body of Work, that's what I was thinking of. If anyone can find that it's well worth watching. But you say that he's got the knowledge in his head because he's his own lived experience as he's gone from his 20s to his 40s. And if someone was sat down with him, if they bumped into him in the coffee shop, got him talking about it for 10 minutes, he would be able to deliver such gems. So the same for all business owners out there. You know the stuff. \n\nyou know the five questions that people ask the things that they really should be asking instead, because those questions are probably not the real important pieces, the next steps that they can take and even if you just take those three elements five questions people ask, five things that they should really know or questions that they should be asking and five action steps that people can take. Creating a book that just had those things don't have to think about it anymore than that as a lead generation tool with the right title would fill the funnel. Start the conversations for the whole next three years worth of business. \n\nDean: And that's all it is. That's what I really want to stress for people. If you look on the 90 minute books website, when we've got the 90 minute book as a, we did a 90 minute book, I've called the 90 minute book and people can get that at 90minutebookcom. And when you opt in for the 90 minute book, the first thing that we see is a video with me explaining the value of a small book, because it's often the two things that I think stand in people's way of getting a 90 minute book is they think or perceive that they need to have a big book, and that's the vision that they have, and it's gonna take a lot of time and effort to create that, without really even knowing whether you've struck the right chord. \n\nRight, and I'm not opposed to the big books, but I think that you can start and we've had some people start with a 90 minute book as version one to get the idea to do the thing, because what we've learned is it doesn't matter to people whether the book is 50 pages or 250 pages when they're presented with the offer of the book. If we run because most of the time we're doing Facebook ads people see a cover. This is a book, I can download it right now. That's the offer and I'm making 100% the decision on. Am I interested in what the title of this book? \n\nStuart: is. \n\nDean: So when people see convert more leads what to say to prospects? So they all convert themselves, they say I want that and it doesn't make any difference whether that book is 50 pages or 250 pages for the job of work that we're hiring. \n\nStuart: Because, although both things can be called a book, both things are printed on paper and they're bound. \n\nThe job of work of a book that you're buying off Amazon or from Bud and Noble to be entertained to read the actual content, that has to be a big book because you're competing with all of the other books out there. But the book where the job of work is to those people who download, convert more leads. They want to know the secret to convert more leads. And if the answer was one sentence, tap your nose three times and then turn around counterclockwise and that would yeah, that would be, it's done its job. \n\nSo the idea that people get into this traditional mindset trap the traditional trap I'm going to call it that from now on this traditional trap of thinking that they have to write something that competes with other things on Amazon, other things by. It's like people not wanting to start YouTube channels because they see Mr Beast with 100 million followers and think, oh, he's got 200 million. \n\nDean: Yeah, he works hard for those, he does. \n\nStuart: Yeah, but it's this idea of oh well, unless it's that level of success, it's not worth it. \n\nWhen, again, the job of work is completely different, and for people to hold themselves back from not getting started, of thinking that they need to wait till November, clear the calendar, lock themselves away 1600 words a day just to get to an end point, that may or may not hit the mark. The podcast that went live last weekend as we record this one today, was with Kevin Burr. So his first book was kind of like a 20 ideas type book where he was just touching on the 20 points of building relationships with people. One of the 20 was around writing a bio, having a professional bio that you can give to people as an easy way for them to remember who you are and what you do. That idea, when he released the first book, all the feedback that he was getting was about that particular idea because it just hit the zeitgeist of his audience. So the second book that you wrote was specifically doubling down on that and the amplification that he's getting, the opt-ins that he's getting of doubling down on that idea. That resonated with the audience. \n\nWe hear all the time people will come and they've spent months and tens of thousands of dollars on other projects that have either stalled or not gone anywhere or turned into a bit of a tar baby of work that they needed to do. When I look at what they've spent and the time that it's taken and thinking you could have done something so much more efficient. \n\nAnd even if, like you say, you then do go on to double down on that particular project and turn it into a more traditional book and try and get more traditional media to pick it up, starting off with the first version that's out there and testing the audience in a quick and cost effective way yeah, so much more productive. \n\nDean: It's so amazing, too, that sometimes we don't know what the market's going to respond to. You don't know what people I've often, you know, and I run into it. Sometimes Not every book idea that I come up with is the is a crystal clear winner, but within two or three tries I find one that is dramatically better, you know, and that was. I just had that situation with a reverse mortgage book that, you know, we, the book we came up with, was a book called House Rich, and the difference in, you know, and that's the great thing about testing these things of not writing them in stone, gives us an opportunity to experiment, right, and that's kind of the whole thing. And there was a difference between House Rich with an exclamation mark and House Rich with a question mark. So the idea was joining people in the idea of one of our book title formulas is join the conversation that's already going on in their mind, right? I was just thinking that that's the title, and so we've had a lot of success with these how to know when something makes sense, right, so how to know when it makes sense to refinance, or how to know, in this case, when a reverse mortgage makes sense. And that was with the now the big subhead of House Rich question mark how to know when a reverse mortgage makes sense, image of a house sitting on top of cash buried beneath the house, right. \n\nAnd that's been a winner, a unqualified winner, that were able to generate those leads in the ten, eleven dollar range. And I know that those, if we can generate a hundred of those leads for and follow up with those people for a hundred weeks, that it's going to be a multiple of the money. It's just stocking our pond with those. So it's funny because the you know, get More Leads with the fish jumping in the boat, is the second book in the series. But the Get More Leads is how to choose the words that get you all the leads you want, and it's the image of all these fish going off to the right side of the book following a sign that says free worms this way, and they're all going off the book into the second book which is then they're jumping in the boat being converted, so I was pretty happy with the way that. \n\nI thought that was pretty clever the way the series jumped together. \n\nStuart: A great example of horse for sale type of examples that does what it says on the tin and not being clever and not being too ambiguous about what it is. \n\nIt's just very specifically. Here's the thing that you want, the conversation that's going on in your head already. Here's the answer to that problem. Talk about a hundred weeks. It's interesting, then, to think about the ongoing the campaign after they've initially opted in, because I think that trips some people up as well, and thinking about the book as the start of the conversation. But then the long term, the 80 of people who convert over the longer term rather than the short term. \n\nThat's why we're such a fan of podcasts, because, just as it's easy to create a book based on your own knowledge, being asked questions that you immediately know the answers to, it's also easy to do a podcast where you're talking to people about the same subject, because anyone who's been in business for more than a year probably doesn't have a difficulty talking about the subject. \n\nBut, when you sit people down and say, okay, now you've got to write 52 emails to regularly send out to people and deliver them value. And either that or it's go to an aggregator and just get the same generic stuff that everyone else is doing To be able to just simply record a podcast, and I mean, don't need quite such a fantastic studio as one's got here. \n\nDean: But if you can find one, do it. \n\nStuart: Yeah, come down to Dolphin Studio. \n\nDean: If you're anywhere in central Florida, this is the place. \n\nStuart: But even just doing it from Zoom at home, doing something that you can quickly and easily get that out to people in a weekly message. Here's the new podcast that we recorded, by the way, whenever you're ready, and here's the call to action. \n\nDean: That's been a great thing too. That that's what we've been doing with people is we've been calling them milking sessions, where we'll do on Zoom record. People set them up so that they can record their answers, to create content from that follow up content. My goal is to get it so that people can just embrace their bovinity and just lean into being a cow and make the milk and come in and get milk. Nobody ever has talkers block right and that's the greatest thing. That's. The biggest secret is that. It's the asynchronous thing that kills people is that setting off the time that they're gonna try and do it on their own but, having it synchronous and scheduled and Involving other people is the power move. \n\nThat's how you get the stuff done right. It's not if it was up to you just to organize everything and do it. \n\nStuart: It's nothing gets done with the best intention in the world, if this is a nice that way my myself included like I can't. \n\nDean: I have very I've a very proven track record of not getting anything done when I don't have something Synchronous and scheduled. You know that. But the things, the most important things that I do when I think about it, are Synchronous and scheduled like that I do the workshops I never miss yeah, the podcasts when I've got guests are on the thing. Never missed their schedule at a time I've come, you know. \n\nStuart: Because you're not competing against that bit of your brain that's trying to distract you with other things right. If it's there, someone else has arranged it. You just have to turn up. It's like going to the gym. We were just grabbing coffee before and bumped into Brook, who's one of the owners of a water-sider gym in winter. \n\nI haven't here. I used to regularly go to the gym when I was down here, because it was in the calendar. I had it blocked off. I didn't have to think about going, it was just I need to get out the door and rush down there. Mm-hmm. As soon as that schedule went, as soon as there was some variation in there as soon as the Details. \n\nAll that gym is not there anymore. I need to find the other one. And is it on this block or that block? Or what time was a class? All of those things is just enough of a grain of sand To cog up the wheels and then all of a sudden, this other thing is more important. \n\nI need to do this. So I think that trick of I'm doing a lot more work now in LinkedIn than I've done before and that's because I've working with another group of people and Engaging them to keep me accountable and doing some of the work the idea I would have perfectly loved to have done this seven years ago. \n\nIt's not like it's a brand new idea and I suddenly discovered LinkedIn. It's just that every time I thought about it, something else came up. So, having the calls with them scheduled, the work that we're doing agreed, having not even so much the accountability but the framework to make sure that it's done, it puts it on rails, and I think that's one of the big benefits of. Something like 90-minute books and something like the podcast that we do for people. It's scheduled and synchronous, it's in the calendar, it's not interrupted and all you have to do is turn up and like you say there's no such thing as talkers block. \n\nDean: Is there? Do we have a? What do we have in terms of the book title? Workshop Resource for yeah, on the website. \n\nStuart: I'll link it in the show notes for this episode. But on the 90-minute books website, on the resource tab, there's two workshops in there a book titles workshop, which we just updated that with a newer one, and then the outline workshop as well. \n\nDean: Is it a video like a zoom one, or audio? \n\nStuart: the titles. One is a zoom one that we did recently, and then the outline one is a little bit older. That's the conference call on and then, in addition to that, there's the book blueprint scorecard, which lists out there a building blocks of the book. \n\nSo single target market title, amplifying subheading, call to action, outline content, and then, after the beyond, the book elements, and then there's a whole host of videos that Go with each of those modules. But that first step of picking the title, that book titles workshop, there's the Zincal where I think that's the focus. \n\nDean: So let's put a link in the email that we signed about this to the the book title workshop, because I know that as soon as somebody gets the title in their mind, that's the catalyst for gain. That's the toughest thing is Coming up with that. So I know as soon as people get that idea that we can launch into action to Get the rest of it done, be great to go into the new year with your book already in your hand, right. \n\nStuart: Second of November you know, mean, in the time when all these nano-rimo people are kind of locking themselves away, we can get the majority of it, from your perspective, done the work that we need to do with you for the content, the Conversation with the cover design guys who come down. It design dialed in. All of that can be done within the next couple of weeks, and then we kind of take it and just do all of the work in the background. \n\nYeah so come January the first, I mean new marketing budgets. Put that towards some Facebook ads with this as the cookie to get people to opt in. Yeah it's the title. It's funny, this kind of traditional trap that people fall into when I hear people talking about Traditionally writing books and then they'll write it all and then I'll go to the publishing company and then the publishing company will go back and forth and back and forth on picking the title and they took right the tail, wagon the dog. \n\nIf the much more effective way for us as business owners with the job of work being starting conversations is the title is the first thing. The content then backs it up and makes people, makes the people who have requested it, comfortable enough to then take the action step, take the next step. That's the path not write it, and then we'll work out what to do with afterwards. \n\nDean: Amen, I love it. Well, I think we've said it all. Yeah, you know, let those other people that hold themselves up in a in their hidey hole and get their book written in a month, but yeah let's click on that link, watch the book title workshop. Get that going and then we're ready to help you start your book and run into the new year with a whole stock, your pond, full of the right prospects for you yeah. I love it. Very exciting it is perfect. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, Dean and I catch up in the studio to talk about the power of non-traditional books to collect all the leads you need.
\n\nCompared to the traditional approach of locking yourself away to write 1000 words a day, we talk about the benefits of a 'conversation-starting book' and how thinking about your book as a tool that powers a campaign can generate leads 1753 leads at just $3.53 per lead as we did in a recent Facebook ad.
\n\nWe talk about the value of the everyday knowledge you already have and how asking the right questions can compel people to raise their hands; we debunk the myth that a book needs to be lengthy to be successful and discuss the impact of concise, impactful books that address potential clients' concerns.
\n\nThis is a short, sharp shot of getting-it-done thinking!
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/153
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: National national. Well, I'll trip everything. National novel writing month.
\n\nDean: And all around the world, there are people who all year build up to this month where the idea is that you start writing on midnight 01 on November 1st and you have to stop writing at 59 on November 30th. And there's, you know, people all over the world get involved in this process and the thing that is, everybody builds up to this moment and do you know or wonder what the drop-off rate is by November 2nd? The number of people. The idea is that you're supposed to write 1,600 words a day.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nDean: Yeah, and do you know what the drop-off is of people who fall behind already on November 2nd?
\n\nStuart: I haven't seen the numbers by any of you imagine it's a pretty dramatic Percipitus. Let's call it precipitus. Yeah, and you?
\n\nDean: know, I started to think that because you end up. It strikes me, man, that's a lot of like effort and work to get to a point where you know you're going to. You know, hide yourself away in your cabin in the woods for a month and slave over, turn your phone off yeah exactly Drop out of society for all of these things and I really started realizing, man, there's such, you know.
\n\nI look at right now, between now and the end of the year, the strides that somebody could make if, instead of slaving out trying to write a book traditionally, that we went through the process. The reason that I created that, we created the 90-minute book opportunity for people is to make it super easy for them so they didn't have to hold themselves away for 30 days, dropping out of society and counter to the traditional flow. Yeah.
\n\nStuart: The outcome that we're looking for is business owners is to start the conversation, and the way to start the conversation happens to be a book, as the most effective way of doing it.
\n\nDean: Right.
\n\nStuart: But to flip that and get caught up in the whole product being the book in the traditional sense. It just kills so many people yeah. And we've heard of a podcast just before this one at the office with someone who's written five.
\n\nDean: I'm going to look up something to show. Look at the numbers.
\n\nStuart: So I was recording with Chris before Chris Carlson. He's written five books previously, himself not in a strictly traditional sense, but still not using those, and he said this process was the absolute easiest, most straightforward way to create the thing that gets him in conversation quicker, cheaper, faster, more to the point, given that the job of workers getting in conversation with potential clients- and.
\n\nI think the challenge that people have is that they say book and in their mind pops up a certain thing and that certain thing is the traditional book, both in their outcome and the process. But the reality is the book just happens to be the most effective way to get into the conversation and if you can shortcut that and not get caught up and bogged down in all of the traditional. So I went through it.
\n\nDean: So we went and went through this process where we did. I've been doing these lead conversion workshops and lead generation workshops, lead getting workshops, and part of the thing that I share with everybody of getting leads is the most reliable number one thing is a book that has a title that your ideal prospects say that's the book for me, right? So about 90 days ago I launched on the lead getting workshop. I went through the process with people to show exactly what, the how to do it right, and show that you could do it in 30 days and get the whole and get the whole thing settled. So I created a book called convert more leads what to say to prospects so they all convert themselves and conceived the idea by going through the book title formulas that we talk about.
\n\nI'll talk about those in a second, but I went through that process with everybody and did the word palette and came up with that title convert more leads what to say to prospects so they all convert themselves. I had our designer Glenn do a wonderful cover where a guy's fishing with his hands behind his head and the fish are jumping in the boat. Right, that's the greatest thing. You're out fishing and the jumper the fish are jumping in the boat because that's, metaphorically, what we're doing.
\n\nWe want your ideal prospects to jump into the boat and so in the last 60 days we launched that and we've generated 1753 leads for $3.53 per lead for those ideal prospects.
\n\nRight Now that I look at it, that if I'm coming into somebody's business and I want to generate leads on a long, you know, on a sustainable basis, if they're serving this as a market, that's going to be in business for the next you know, several years that that's the business that they're in. So the first thing I would say is that if you're doing a hundred weeks is the benchmark that I'd say is I'm looking to say if we could generate leads for $300 or $500 or whatever it is. We just did a catalog with the bike shop here in Winterhaven. You know, doing business is if you can reliably, for $300, fill up a basket with a hundred leads, a hundred people who expressly and voluntarily raise their hand and said is there any doubt that anybody who downloaded a book called Convert More Leads what their desire is? It's pretty much it does what it says on the tin, right? That's the thing.
\n\nStuart: There's no confusion about what they're getting.
\n\nDean: They're clearly expressing pressure, and especially yeah, if somebody's putting together the e-bike catalog, the 2023 e-bike catalog, that's everybody. That's what they want right.
\n\nSo thinking about this as a process, to know that, while all these people are hidden away in their hidey hole writing 1600 words a day, many of them not going to get to the finish line and chalk it up maybe next year we'll do the same thing. But, you know, while that's all happening, somebody we could get into the process of identify the, your audience. What's the title of the book that they would definitely want?
\n\nStuart: And it's you know different.
\n\nDean: if you're looking for invisible prospects or visible prospects, you know either way how. It's only about how you reach them, and this is the perfect way for gathering invisible prospects, and we've done it for everything from medical things, the A to Z.
\n\nStuart: we've done accountants and we've done Zimbabwe and outsourcers. So literally a thousand books. I mean thank you so much for coming on board, because that allows me to use that metaphor Literally a thousand books.
\n\nDean: Yes.
\n\nStuart: There's not an industry that there's not an example for.
\n\nDean: Right.
\n\nStuart: And to be able to pivot those titles to specifically your case within that. So there's more than one CPA book out there, but each one of them is targeting a slightly different group.
\n\nDean: Yes.
\n\nStuart: There's more than one medical book out there, but targeting a separate group.
\n\nSo, that first job of work in the sequence is, as you say, getting people to raise their hands. I want that, and then the conversation starts. The book is just the mechanism for moving it, that minimum, viable commitment, the next step in the chain. And to be able to do that in a way that where other people are locking themselves away trying to make this perfect piece before they even put it out in the world. Yes, it's like Mike Tyson Everyone's got a plan until I smack him in the face. Well, get your book out there. You get smacked in the face a few times by the real audience and then so you look at these things, these bundles We've already.
\n\nDean: We've got 1,753 people on the Convert More Leads, some of whom have already signed up for our lead conversion workshop, which is a $2,500 workshop, and others that we have that will move into other things, come into a live breakthrough blueprint or working with me one-on-one. So the idea of the way I look at it is, if we take 1,000 leads for $3,000, how many of those people over the next 100 weeks am I going to be able to help convert more leads? It's such an amazing thing. And then on the next go round, we're creating a book called Get More Leads, so the two bookends of what somebody could need for their business. They're either generating leads and they need to convert them, or they need to get more leads so that they're ready to launch the conversion process.
\n\nStuart: I think there's a lot of challenge that people have because they come to the idea of a book and a lot of people accept that it's a great lead generation tool but then get stuck in this traditional mindset of, okay, well, a book is this thing that authors write away, locking themselves in a cabin and it's difficult and challenging and you kind of PTSD back to homework and redlined from school and all of the challenge and trauma around it. I think so many people underestimate the value of just the knowledge that they've got from their day-to-day activities. I think because we're in the business every day, we undervalue just that basic conversation, starting ways of thinking about things. So instead of being a book would be good, but I do need to lock myself away to get this award-winning piece created. Instead, just ask yourself what are the questions that people ask when they stick?
\n\ntheir head in the door, or when they phone up customer support, or when they what?
\n\nDean: do they need to know to get that process? This is where all part of the whole genesis of the self-milking cow came from.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nDean: That years ago I was running a mastermind group and this is before we started 90-minute books. This was the genesis of 90-minute books that I was already. I had figured out how to write books by recording and transcribing and editing. That's how I did Stop. Your Divorce was the first one that we did like that.
\n\nThen I did a book about how we did Stop your Divorce and a whole coaching program around that. But those I was sharing that with the mastermind group and then I was seeing people struggle with it brought up so many technical blocks. Then how do I record with or how do I get this transcribed and who's going to do the edit? How do I design the cover? How do I All these questions that were coming up that caused delay.
\n\nStuart: Right, and I still remember the original.
\n\nDean: I love, I say it. Sean Phillips was in the mastermind group, bill Phillips the brother, and did you ever meet Sean?
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nDean: Oh yeah, you're part of that too. Yeah, and he may be a guy who's more ADD than me, but he's super smart, knows so much stuff. Talk about what you were just saying. That it's all in there. And so I was coming home from London, I did an event in London, I was landed back in South Carolina, I was going to play some golf with Mike Hardwick at Kiowa and I woke up one morning early I was like 5 am because I was still on London time. It's kind of in a melatonin haze and I was thinking about Sean and I was thinking how you know? Because I just talked to him and he hadn't gotten made any progress and I realized he's got all the information. It's all in there.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nDean: He knows it. He could just hook a hose up to his brain and just suck all the information out. And all this, of course, is happening like quickly and the connections were made. I was thinking if I could just milk his brain and then that created this visualization of him as a cow and I realized in that world it's not a dairy cow but an idea cow, a money cow, cash cow. Yeah, and I. That really is what I thought that he's trying. The frustration is he's trying to milk himself, and that's really where the idea of the self-milking cow came from. I immediately proposed to him that I would help him. Do we do the interview process? And that book is still on Amazon today. It's called the Owner's Manual through your 40s and it still is. I mean, it's a great content.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, sean, and I have spoken to him a few times. I love the book. Sean I don't know of Sean back from years ago, the Body of Life.
\n\nDean: Yeah, Body for Life.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, body for Life. He recorded a video with Bill. Body of Work, that's what I was thinking of. If anyone can find that it's well worth watching. But you say that he's got the knowledge in his head because he's his own lived experience as he's gone from his 20s to his 40s. And if someone was sat down with him, if they bumped into him in the coffee shop, got him talking about it for 10 minutes, he would be able to deliver such gems. So the same for all business owners out there. You know the stuff.
\n\nyou know the five questions that people ask the things that they really should be asking instead, because those questions are probably not the real important pieces, the next steps that they can take and even if you just take those three elements five questions people ask, five things that they should really know or questions that they should be asking and five action steps that people can take. Creating a book that just had those things don't have to think about it anymore than that as a lead generation tool with the right title would fill the funnel. Start the conversations for the whole next three years worth of business.
\n\nDean: And that's all it is. That's what I really want to stress for people. If you look on the 90 minute books website, when we've got the 90 minute book as a, we did a 90 minute book, I've called the 90 minute book and people can get that at 90minutebookcom. And when you opt in for the 90 minute book, the first thing that we see is a video with me explaining the value of a small book, because it's often the two things that I think stand in people's way of getting a 90 minute book is they think or perceive that they need to have a big book, and that's the vision that they have, and it's gonna take a lot of time and effort to create that, without really even knowing whether you've struck the right chord.
\n\nRight, and I'm not opposed to the big books, but I think that you can start and we've had some people start with a 90 minute book as version one to get the idea to do the thing, because what we've learned is it doesn't matter to people whether the book is 50 pages or 250 pages when they're presented with the offer of the book. If we run because most of the time we're doing Facebook ads people see a cover. This is a book, I can download it right now. That's the offer and I'm making 100% the decision on. Am I interested in what the title of this book?
\n\nStuart: is.
\n\nDean: So when people see convert more leads what to say to prospects? So they all convert themselves, they say I want that and it doesn't make any difference whether that book is 50 pages or 250 pages for the job of work that we're hiring.
\n\nStuart: Because, although both things can be called a book, both things are printed on paper and they're bound.
\n\nThe job of work of a book that you're buying off Amazon or from Bud and Noble to be entertained to read the actual content, that has to be a big book because you're competing with all of the other books out there. But the book where the job of work is to those people who download, convert more leads. They want to know the secret to convert more leads. And if the answer was one sentence, tap your nose three times and then turn around counterclockwise and that would yeah, that would be, it's done its job.
\n\nSo the idea that people get into this traditional mindset trap the traditional trap I'm going to call it that from now on this traditional trap of thinking that they have to write something that competes with other things on Amazon, other things by. It's like people not wanting to start YouTube channels because they see Mr Beast with 100 million followers and think, oh, he's got 200 million.
\n\nDean: Yeah, he works hard for those, he does.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, but it's this idea of oh well, unless it's that level of success, it's not worth it.
\n\nWhen, again, the job of work is completely different, and for people to hold themselves back from not getting started, of thinking that they need to wait till November, clear the calendar, lock themselves away 1600 words a day just to get to an end point, that may or may not hit the mark. The podcast that went live last weekend as we record this one today, was with Kevin Burr. So his first book was kind of like a 20 ideas type book where he was just touching on the 20 points of building relationships with people. One of the 20 was around writing a bio, having a professional bio that you can give to people as an easy way for them to remember who you are and what you do. That idea, when he released the first book, all the feedback that he was getting was about that particular idea because it just hit the zeitgeist of his audience. So the second book that you wrote was specifically doubling down on that and the amplification that he's getting, the opt-ins that he's getting of doubling down on that idea. That resonated with the audience.
\n\nWe hear all the time people will come and they've spent months and tens of thousands of dollars on other projects that have either stalled or not gone anywhere or turned into a bit of a tar baby of work that they needed to do. When I look at what they've spent and the time that it's taken and thinking you could have done something so much more efficient.
\n\nAnd even if, like you say, you then do go on to double down on that particular project and turn it into a more traditional book and try and get more traditional media to pick it up, starting off with the first version that's out there and testing the audience in a quick and cost effective way yeah, so much more productive.
\n\nDean: It's so amazing, too, that sometimes we don't know what the market's going to respond to. You don't know what people I've often, you know, and I run into it. Sometimes Not every book idea that I come up with is the is a crystal clear winner, but within two or three tries I find one that is dramatically better, you know, and that was. I just had that situation with a reverse mortgage book that, you know, we, the book we came up with, was a book called House Rich, and the difference in, you know, and that's the great thing about testing these things of not writing them in stone, gives us an opportunity to experiment, right, and that's kind of the whole thing. And there was a difference between House Rich with an exclamation mark and House Rich with a question mark. So the idea was joining people in the idea of one of our book title formulas is join the conversation that's already going on in their mind, right? I was just thinking that that's the title, and so we've had a lot of success with these how to know when something makes sense, right, so how to know when it makes sense to refinance, or how to know, in this case, when a reverse mortgage makes sense. And that was with the now the big subhead of House Rich question mark how to know when a reverse mortgage makes sense, image of a house sitting on top of cash buried beneath the house, right.
\n\nAnd that's been a winner, a unqualified winner, that were able to generate those leads in the ten, eleven dollar range. And I know that those, if we can generate a hundred of those leads for and follow up with those people for a hundred weeks, that it's going to be a multiple of the money. It's just stocking our pond with those. So it's funny because the you know, get More Leads with the fish jumping in the boat, is the second book in the series. But the Get More Leads is how to choose the words that get you all the leads you want, and it's the image of all these fish going off to the right side of the book following a sign that says free worms this way, and they're all going off the book into the second book which is then they're jumping in the boat being converted, so I was pretty happy with the way that.
\n\nI thought that was pretty clever the way the series jumped together.
\n\nStuart: A great example of horse for sale type of examples that does what it says on the tin and not being clever and not being too ambiguous about what it is.
\n\nIt's just very specifically. Here's the thing that you want, the conversation that's going on in your head already. Here's the answer to that problem. Talk about a hundred weeks. It's interesting, then, to think about the ongoing the campaign after they've initially opted in, because I think that trips some people up as well, and thinking about the book as the start of the conversation. But then the long term, the 80 of people who convert over the longer term rather than the short term.
\n\nThat's why we're such a fan of podcasts, because, just as it's easy to create a book based on your own knowledge, being asked questions that you immediately know the answers to, it's also easy to do a podcast where you're talking to people about the same subject, because anyone who's been in business for more than a year probably doesn't have a difficulty talking about the subject.
\n\nBut, when you sit people down and say, okay, now you've got to write 52 emails to regularly send out to people and deliver them value. And either that or it's go to an aggregator and just get the same generic stuff that everyone else is doing To be able to just simply record a podcast, and I mean, don't need quite such a fantastic studio as one's got here.
\n\nDean: But if you can find one, do it.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, come down to Dolphin Studio.
\n\nDean: If you're anywhere in central Florida, this is the place.
\n\nStuart: But even just doing it from Zoom at home, doing something that you can quickly and easily get that out to people in a weekly message. Here's the new podcast that we recorded, by the way, whenever you're ready, and here's the call to action.
\n\nDean: That's been a great thing too. That that's what we've been doing with people is we've been calling them milking sessions, where we'll do on Zoom record. People set them up so that they can record their answers, to create content from that follow up content. My goal is to get it so that people can just embrace their bovinity and just lean into being a cow and make the milk and come in and get milk. Nobody ever has talkers block right and that's the greatest thing. That's. The biggest secret is that. It's the asynchronous thing that kills people is that setting off the time that they're gonna try and do it on their own but, having it synchronous and scheduled and Involving other people is the power move.
\n\nThat's how you get the stuff done right. It's not if it was up to you just to organize everything and do it.
\n\nStuart: It's nothing gets done with the best intention in the world, if this is a nice that way my myself included like I can't.
\n\nDean: I have very I've a very proven track record of not getting anything done when I don't have something Synchronous and scheduled. You know that. But the things, the most important things that I do when I think about it, are Synchronous and scheduled like that I do the workshops I never miss yeah, the podcasts when I've got guests are on the thing. Never missed their schedule at a time I've come, you know.
\n\nStuart: Because you're not competing against that bit of your brain that's trying to distract you with other things right. If it's there, someone else has arranged it. You just have to turn up. It's like going to the gym. We were just grabbing coffee before and bumped into Brook, who's one of the owners of a water-sider gym in winter.
\n\nI haven't here. I used to regularly go to the gym when I was down here, because it was in the calendar. I had it blocked off. I didn't have to think about going, it was just I need to get out the door and rush down there. Mm-hmm. As soon as that schedule went, as soon as there was some variation in there as soon as the Details.
\n\nAll that gym is not there anymore. I need to find the other one. And is it on this block or that block? Or what time was a class? All of those things is just enough of a grain of sand To cog up the wheels and then all of a sudden, this other thing is more important.
\n\nI need to do this. So I think that trick of I'm doing a lot more work now in LinkedIn than I've done before and that's because I've working with another group of people and Engaging them to keep me accountable and doing some of the work the idea I would have perfectly loved to have done this seven years ago.
\n\nIt's not like it's a brand new idea and I suddenly discovered LinkedIn. It's just that every time I thought about it, something else came up. So, having the calls with them scheduled, the work that we're doing agreed, having not even so much the accountability but the framework to make sure that it's done, it puts it on rails, and I think that's one of the big benefits of. Something like 90-minute books and something like the podcast that we do for people. It's scheduled and synchronous, it's in the calendar, it's not interrupted and all you have to do is turn up and like you say there's no such thing as talkers block.
\n\nDean: Is there? Do we have a? What do we have in terms of the book title? Workshop Resource for yeah, on the website.
\n\nStuart: I'll link it in the show notes for this episode. But on the 90-minute books website, on the resource tab, there's two workshops in there a book titles workshop, which we just updated that with a newer one, and then the outline workshop as well.
\n\nDean: Is it a video like a zoom one, or audio?
\n\nStuart: the titles. One is a zoom one that we did recently, and then the outline one is a little bit older. That's the conference call on and then, in addition to that, there's the book blueprint scorecard, which lists out there a building blocks of the book.
\n\nSo single target market title, amplifying subheading, call to action, outline content, and then, after the beyond, the book elements, and then there's a whole host of videos that Go with each of those modules. But that first step of picking the title, that book titles workshop, there's the Zincal where I think that's the focus.
\n\nDean: So let's put a link in the email that we signed about this to the the book title workshop, because I know that as soon as somebody gets the title in their mind, that's the catalyst for gain. That's the toughest thing is Coming up with that. So I know as soon as people get that idea that we can launch into action to Get the rest of it done, be great to go into the new year with your book already in your hand, right.
\n\nStuart: Second of November you know, mean, in the time when all these nano-rimo people are kind of locking themselves away, we can get the majority of it, from your perspective, done the work that we need to do with you for the content, the Conversation with the cover design guys who come down. It design dialed in. All of that can be done within the next couple of weeks, and then we kind of take it and just do all of the work in the background.
\n\nYeah so come January the first, I mean new marketing budgets. Put that towards some Facebook ads with this as the cookie to get people to opt in. Yeah it's the title. It's funny, this kind of traditional trap that people fall into when I hear people talking about Traditionally writing books and then they'll write it all and then I'll go to the publishing company and then the publishing company will go back and forth and back and forth on picking the title and they took right the tail, wagon the dog.
\n\nIf the much more effective way for us as business owners with the job of work being starting conversations is the title is the first thing. The content then backs it up and makes people, makes the people who have requested it, comfortable enough to then take the action step, take the next step. That's the path not write it, and then we'll work out what to do with afterwards.
\n\nDean: Amen, I love it. Well, I think we've said it all. Yeah, you know, let those other people that hold themselves up in a in their hidey hole and get their book written in a month, but yeah let's click on that link, watch the book title workshop. Get that going and then we're ready to help you start your book and run into the new year with a whole stock, your pond, full of the right prospects for you yeah. I love it. Very exciting it is perfect.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, Dean and I catch up in the studio to talk about the power of non-traditional books to collect all the leads you need.\r\n\r\nCompared to the traditional approach of locking yourself away to write 1000 words a day, we talk about the benefits of a 'conversation-starting book' and how thinking about your book as a tool that powers a campaign can generate leads 1753 leads at just $3.53 per lead as we did in a recent Facebook ad.\r\n\r\nWe talk about the value of the everyday knowledge you already have and how asking the right questions can compel people to raise their hands; we debunk the myth that a book needs to be lengthy to be successful and discuss the impact of concise, impactful books that address potential clients' concerns.\r\n\r\nThis is a short, sharp shot of getting-it-done thinking!","date_published":"2023-11-28T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/182b1b77-26d2-461e-8f82-1d5c6461fb34.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":22789473,"duration_in_seconds":1845}]},{"id":"82d48c3e-908f-4414-818f-d713f4a0bf2f","title":"Ep152: Smart Marketing Execution with Clare Price","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/152","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Clare Price, CEO of Octane Growth Systems and author of Smart Marketing Execution, about leveraging books as strategic business tools. \n\nWe had a great conversation about how she created a framework based on her work and turned it into a comprehensive operating system for marketing consultants, fractional CMOs, and agency owners centred around a three-tier framework of strategy, execution, and automation. \n\nIt's a great example of 'Naming and Claiming,' an approach allowing you to create tangible and documented elements to ensure project success, as well as developing deeper connections with clients to increase business success. \n\nWe wrap up talking about her experience using her book to introduce her system and how that supports her licensing and certification programs.\n\nThis is a great episode with some really valuable insights into scaling an idea by owning your approach. \n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nClare Price, founder and CEO of Octane Growth Systems, has developed a comprehensive operating system for marketing consultants, fractional CMOs, and agency owners to leverage for business success.\nThe system is based on a three-tier framework of strategy, execution, and automation and helps fractional providers to scale their businesses.\nHaving a tangible and documented framework is essential for project success. The framework should be easily accessible for small business owners and developed with feedback from real people.\nDeep connections with clients and understanding their needs is vital for achieving successful business outcomes.\nClare's approach to client collaboration involves working together with the client to create the deliverable, thereby increasing the value of the project for both parties.\nUsing books as a tool for sharing her system, Clare was able to prepare for the idea of licensing the system, leading to the development of a certification program.\nThrough licensing, more businesses can benefit from the system and more relationships can be fostered in the business community.\nReal-world testing and multiple iterations are crucial for refining the system and making it beneficial for users.\nThe Octane Growth System provides clarity for both the consultant and the client, minimizing hiccups and delays in the process.\nThe power of books in business growth is underscored by their ability to articulate and clarify a framework, making it widely available and fostering relationships between consultants and clients.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nClare Price - LinkedIn\nOctain Growth\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/152\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got a super exciting guest, someone I was introduced to on LinkedIn actually, we had a great conversation and then a podcast was the obvious follow-up Clare Price from Octane Growth. Clare, how do you do? \n\nClare: I'm doing great, Stuart. Thanks very much for having me today. \n\nStuart: No problem, it's a pleasure. I'm excited about this conversation because I think it's going to be a good illustration for people on the usefulness of having a book, because it's something that you've used a couple of times in your business and when our conversation started the idea of a podcast or I don't think I even knew that you had a book when we were first introduced so it's a real benefit, I think, to share with everyone. Now that's kind of come out and we've got an opportunity to talk about it a little bit more. Why don't we start by going into a bit of your background and share kind of your journey in the business and we can then bridge into the book and the framework, which I'm really excited to share with people? \n\nClare: Right. Thank you so much, stuart, I really appreciate it. Claire Price, I am the founder and CEO of Octane Growth Systems, and we work with marketing consultants, fractional CMOs and agency owners who want to do more with their clients, building a high quality deliverable in half the time. We believe that the days of just doing straight marketing activity are over, and the companies really need to change into and transition into a marketing operating environment and operating system in order to be successful in today's market, and so we've developed one. \n\nStuart: And it's exciting the last show that I recorded as we were recording today it was yesterday but it'll be the previous week in the show world we were talking a little bit there about the idea of creating frameworks as an easy way for people to understand and almost give milestones from moving forwards. So I think in the fractional world, almost more than the just the full-time employee world fractional owners or fractional providers really need more frames to be able to scale, because the nature of the business is more kind of scale dependent than it is perhaps for in-house people. But obviously there's a benefit across the board. The framework that you've got. I don't talk a little bit about that. Obviously we'll give links to the book so that people can grab a copy of it later, but just at a high level let's kind of introduce it and then we can dive into it a little bit more. \n\nClare: I would love to. \n\nI do want to second what you just said about fractional and needing operating systems. \n\nOne of the biggest issues and I made that transition myself several years ago that people have when they decide that they want to move into the fractional market is they're moving from a corporate environment where they have a lot of resources and they have a big team and they can delegate, into a situation where a lot of it is all on them, so they have their experience to offer, which is a great gift to small business owners, because more and more small business owners need that high level of corporate thinking to be provided to them and fractional CMOs can do that. But in addition to that, they also need a way to help that business and to move forward and I think systems and frameworks is the way to do that. And that is actually why I developed my system, which is the Octane Gross System, and it's three components it's a strategy component, an execution component and an automation, and the reason we call it an operating system is because we bring those three things together, integrate them for our clients and for the consultants that are licensing the system. \n\nStuart: It's interesting actually and never really thought about it before, but that mirror is my experience. \n\nSo I moved out of a corporate job something years ago now and moving that was one of the big surprises in a way. Moving from an organisation I was on the IT side of the house moving from an organisation where you not only had resources but also more people, bringing a commonality of thinking. We're in the project management space, which I don't know how it's in the US, but in the UK that's pretty structured as well around certain frameworks and then all of the members on the project, all of the members on the team, were all thinking in that same way. So your individual responsibilities might be pretty broad and there was a lot of work to do, but at every point that you intersected with someone else there was a commonality of language and approach, and that is really something that is not replicated without systems like yours in the smaller business worlds. So I think it's an outsized benefit that is often overlooked. It's not just the individual parts of the expertise, but really how they stitch together. \n\nClare: I think it maximizes the ability of a fractional consultant to use their experience, because one of the things that is a struggle when you first especially when you first get started or you're in this first couple of years of working with clients is how do I get what I need from the client, how do I get the client to tell me about their ideal customer? How do I get the client to tell me what their story is? And one of the things that we've done with the Octane Grose system is we have developed a full set of tools, assessments and worksheets that we have then taken over the last 10 years and proven will produce the data that in probably 80 to 85 percent of the data you need to produce those deliverables for your clients. \n\nStuart: And that's the thing, isn't it? \n\nTaking all of that learning and distilling it into something that's useful and actionable. I really like the three tiers of the framework, talking about strategy, execution and automation or amplification. There are three areas and almost building on them from one to the other really helps kind of set the scene and then move their engagement forward. And almost I mean we're talking about the fractional owner's side of things and how that could be implemented. But from the business owner's side of things as well, knowing that there's some, they can see the signposts of where the engagement is going and where we're trying to get to. So it's not just turning up to a meeting and laying the track as you go or not seeing the bigger picture from the start. It really seems like it would be a benefit on the owner's side as well as the fractional side. Do you get much engagement isn't that a word? But much uptake for this type of product from owner operators who are trying to do it themselves, as well as implementers who are trying to do it on behalf of others? \n\nClare: Well, that's who we typically work with, because we eat our own dog food, as they say, or drink our own champagne, as someone else puts it, which I like a lot better because we are also my team's also fractional CMOs. So we are continuing to work with small business owners. We do have clients that want to do a lot of it themselves, but what we do in our approach and I think it's really we found a sweet spot, stuart, and that is we call it client collaboration, because in a traditional consulting model which I came out of the consulting world I was a research director for Gartner for 10 years and the typical consulting world is have the discovery call with the client, go away, disappear behind the curtain, produce the deliverable, come back and hand it off to the client. The issue with that is the client really doesn't know what you're doing, and when they don't know what you're doing, particularly in that mid-sized market where budgets are always tight and we always have to make choices about what we spend our money on if I don't really understand what you're doing, do I really know the value that I'm paying for? \n\nSo what we offer is what we call client collaboration, and so, with all of our tools. The client and the consultant are working together to produce the deliverable, so they take it step by step. We use a Canvas model, so if you're familiar with something like Lean Stack or the OnePage Business Plan, we use a similar model approach and then, as we walk through each cell of the Canvas, the client and the consultant are working together to create the deliverable. The consultant adds their expertise, their evaluation, their analysis to the final deliverable. But the client has an opportunity to not only buy in to what they're doing, but also create the value create their own value and, of course, it makes it a lot more important to them and a lot more likely that they're going to go through with the implementation. \n\nStuart: And that's such an overlooked element to the whole success of the project. I think so many people get stuck in, particularly coming from the big consulting side of the world, because it's very transaction. You're responsible for the deliverable piece. This big team are out there onto the next job before you've even started the first one. So whether or not an organization ultimately uses it is almost secondary or irrelevant because you've moved on to the next task. But in a small business world, a medium business world, where you've got a long-term engagement, you're more connected with the people because it's actually the checkwriters are the people that you're working with to have that buy in and hopefully then increase the likelihood that something will happen from it. It's not just the work done but there's an actual useful business outcome to it that really makes a difference in the success of others, or only getting paid if the client gets results. All of those talking points that management theories will spit out as a good way of running a business by having that tie in from the start really makes much more of a connection the framework that you've got. So we have a lot of conversations with people who are in similar situations. They may be not on the fractional side of things or service providers, but they've certainly got a framework that they use within their business that if they could quantify it and share that with clients. \n\nI often one of our friends in the world is a guy called Joe Polish. \n\nHe owned a carpet cleaning business years and years ago when he first started out, and one of the things that he would do was a room by room carpet. \n\nI'm tripping over on what he calls it the pressure of thinking of the name. It was a carpet analysis when they go in and clean. So rather than going in and saying, oh yeah, the carpet is dirty, it needs cleaning, he would go in and draw out a grid and then mark on his estate and his aware and then give that to the client as evidence of oh, it's not just a finger in the air that you need assets. Here's the actual evidence that it's needed. So, similarly with your framework, it's a documented framework that not only tells people that, hey, we know what we're doing and we can do stuff, but here's exactly the steps that we're going to follow so long way, built into the question which is how easy was it to take what you've done and the knowledge that you've built over the 10 years and turn it into a documented framework. Was that relatively straightforward or was that quite a lift to just formalize it in that way? \n\nClare: It was actually a self-hosted process I produced in 2012,. \n\nI produced a series of five playbooks their PDF playbooks I'm no longer available, but they were the start of this system brought those out to the market and was able to really learn from that structure what was workable at the small business level. \n\nBecause one of the real challenges with doing systems and frames if you're a system analysis person, you are typically an analyst, you're a complex thinker, you are a designer, you're a creator, all a visionary. In many cases, your client is in the weeds and so they're not going to take the time to spend a lot of think time on figuring out how to do the marketing, for example, that you would give to them. What they want is they want a solution. So what we had to do is we had to figure out how can we make this easy for small business owners, medium for busy businesses whether they're 10 million or 50 million, they're definitely moving at 1,000 miles an hour. How can we make it so that they can easily get the value and get the results that they're looking from this framework, from the system? And that's where the development of the tools came in, and those did take multiple iterations to get them to the point where they're really producing the kind of data that we're looking for. \n\nStuart: Those iterations were there iterations with clients? It was kind of a refinement process, or was it show yourself in a dark frame, yeah? \n\nClare: pretty much all with clients and all with clients in different vertical markets. We've tested this system with clients in 22 different vertical markets, everything from an apparel startup to a truck, a major trucking company in the Sacramento area, where I just moved from a few years ago from Sacramento to Raleigh. So working with different companies, different types of people, different company requirements is, I think, what has given this really the power of what we're able to offer. \n\nStuart: And testing it in the real world. That's such an old world model of locking yourself away and creating something behind closed doors I mean, I guess, unless you're Apple trying to create the next piece of hardware in secrecy for 90% of us out there in the real world as business owners engaging with real people, the far more successful way of doing it is to start with the first contract, the first piece of work, and then move and develop kind of iteratively. But in the real world I think it's very difficult to justify just closing away and holding off on a project for multiple months or even years in the hope of hitting the perfect one in secrecy and it being a home run. \n\nClare: Could not agree with you more. I think that the real people are going to use this real people. You need to have real people's feedback and experience. That's what we're doing right now. We've launched the first cohort of our training program and we have 44 beta users who are really giving us a good, the bad and the ugly of how this is working for them, so that we can continue to evolve it, because the goal is to make this so easy that both the business owner and the consultant can just wear it like a real comfortable suit of clothes. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that familiarity and every console has been worked out in the real world with the real feedback. I think it's a conversation that we have on a number of times around the books because we're really trying to go for that lean approach of a quick process of get the first version out there and then pivot or tweak or change based on the real world feedback, as opposed to the traditional world of publishing which is tens of thousands of dollars in months and months of time and therefore it does need to be. It's kind of like a one-shot deal. This much more agile, adaptive approach really means so you get it out there working. And I mean we were talking to a friend last week about Facebook ads and testing there and they were saying that it really is. They're doing a big scale like millions of dollars a month budget and they were saying it really is. \n\nYou have to get through 90% of the failing ads just to learn the 10% of work, but it's the 10% that pays for the 90% and then beyond and it's. I guess it's quite daunting because when you think back to writing things in school, you have to do drafts and then submit it and then it's marked and then there's. Well, for me at least, there was red pen all over it and it's almost a. It doesn't encourage you to want to just put something out there and try it, whereas where we are in putting it out there and trying it is the most effective way of going. \n\nClare:I really agree. I think the model that you have with the 90-minute books and really putting out that first version and letting it, you're in you. I think you're at the forefront of a real trend in, particularly in content marketing, because it's all about creator content, it's not about. It's creating content by community and by you know users working together, and I think the model that you've created lends itself so well to to that new trending content marketing, so that your book authors can really experience something that I think you know even two years ago would have been looked at kind of a little bit a scant maybe, but now it's definitely the way to go. \n\nStuart: Yeah, actually it's interesting. Kevin, who I recorded with yesterday, so again will be the the show before this he actually just finished the second book and we were talking about that and the second book came from the first one. So he's in the sales marketing type world, okay, working with sales teams. So his first book was 20 of his ideas, aimed to be a relatively not high level, but none of them were super detailed, but it was the 20 lowest hanging fruit or the easiest things that could come from it, and one of the ideas that he included was about writing personal biographies. It was just something that they've done for years. It was just literally one of the 20, but all of the feedback that he got was about that particular element Exactly, a marker from the community that this was something that there was much more of an expectation of, or an opportunity, rather, to dig into a bit deeper. \n\nBut your framework. So the three elements of the strategy, execution and automation there's various different. Again 2023, there's a lot of talk of automation and AI and the opportunities there, and I think some people are hoping that it's going to be a silver bullet, which means minimal effort, hit a button and maximum output, which obviously isn't the real world. Of the three, those strategy execution and automation is the one of those that the business owners themselves typically are more interested in. The beginning Is the one element that kind of is the hot button element, but then they're introduced to other pieces. \n\nClare: I think that the typical entry point a lot of business owners really want is they want the execution and they often will come into an agency example very typical for someone to just go into it and say, for example, a digital marketing agency, and say I want to get leads, I want a lead generation program. \n\nAnd if that company has a very well detailed profile of who their ideal customer is and they can tell their story well, they can jump into execution and they'll start seeing results. However, if that company does not have a good sense of their ideal customer or they want to move, for example, open up a new market, then jumping into execution will always cost them money and it's not unusual for in that scenario for someone, that's $20,000 to $50,000 trying to figure out what's the best way to get these new leads in, as we're sort of trying to figure out our way forward. If they set a strategy in the beginning, if they set a blueprint we call it as opposed to a strategy because it really is a way to build your approach then that will that we can reduce that easily, cut it in half and maybe even reduce it to 25% of the iteration cost. \n\nStuart: Right, it really is ready. Aim fire is the ideal approach, rather than fire, hope, maybe, aim Right. I think it's so easy for people to get distracted by the kind of the above water piece of the iceberg, which is the add and the results, and miss the importance of the building blocks below. But the benefit is those building blocks are applicable in multiple different areas, so the extra value of doing that work first, which means all of the above water pieces are just going to be so much more effective it's exactly. \n\nYeah, it's difficult to sometimes wind people back a little bit just to do the building block work. That will just make it so much more effective. Working with a number of kind of on the visionary side of the equation rather than the implemented side of the equation, it is difficult to Okay we just need to take one step back before we run too far down this route. You were talking about the fractional, other fractional people that you work with, and I know that you were when we were talking about rolling out the framework to allow other consultants to use and licensing the system. That type of thing. \n\nThat's always something that's interesting and we did do a podcast last year sometime with someone who's dedicated in that licensing type space. It's always interesting hearing about it because we've worked with people on the franchise side of things, which is similar. How did you go from a business owner and then have an employees to thinking about licensing and out? What was that thought process around? Either the relinquishing I don't want to say relationship can control, but was it much of a step to move from just a regular model to more of a looking for other partners to work with? \n\nClare: When I started working on the book, which was about two years ago, it was published last October. So that was the point of the book was to prepare for the idea of licensing the system. So the first step was to provide the information about the system. In the book, smart marketing execution has the step by step details of the system, has examples of the tools. Tools are available to download on the website. \n\nSo the idea was that the book should be kind of that initial foundation and I think you do the same thing with your 90-minute books as well, stuart as you create that foundation for people who can then take it and move it to that next level, whether they license it or not or whether they simply use it with their own client base. I think it is that definitely that foundational step. And then the next step is to take what you've done that you're comfortable with and really and that's where we are now is really learn how to make it really effective for others to use. So that's our certification program that we're, like I say we're just in the beginning stages of is, with people learning it, so that we can continue to refine the approach and make sure that it's the best customer experience for both the consultant and for their clients. \n\nStuart: Such a fantastic opportunity to put more, more opportunity out in the world. The individual reach of any one person is kind of limited to their sphere of influence, no matter how effective they are at that to be able to share what's working with more clients through more providers. I think it's an opportunity that more businesses have got than perhaps they realize, and I get that it's not necessarily something that immediately springs to mind, but I think anyone with a framework, where that framework has got proven results, it's definitely an opportunity for more people to take on board that idea of licensing it out. It's almost like the strategic coach approach of the, the free zone frontier and the amplifying three partnerships rather than thinking about locking something down and restricting it, it's making it available within the constraints but as available as possible. \n\nClare: Absolutely Now. I would encourage anyone out there who has a even in, even in the beginning ideas of the framework sewer to contact you and to look at your 90 minute book process. Even if they end up not using it for anything more than themselves and their own clients as a way to do it, it will clarify their thinking, it will give them a tool, it will give them that next growth step in their business. So I think it's an ideal approach. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I appreciate it. Actually I was funny, I should say. They clarified the thing again. We recorded a podcast with someone a couple of weeks ago and that was one of their feedback as well. They were saying that actually this process having to explain to Christie who they were working with to create their book, having to explain to a level of detail that they hadn't necessarily had to explain before, because either they're talking with clients who don't need to know that level of detail they were happy just to. They were already clients, so they were happy just to move on with what the? \n\nperson was talking about, or they were talking to employees and perhaps there was the employees come with their own ideas, or there was some reluctance to kind of ask what might seem like basic or obvious questions because they were worried about seeming like they didn't know what they were talking about. So to have to go through and explain it, and it actually opened up a couple of other parts of the chapters and explaining things in ways that they just never articulated before. It was in here but it had never kind of come out in a way that was easy to understand and share with someone else. \n\nClare: Exactly. \n\nStuart: Brings us to this idea of how the books created. The frameworks and the explanations are there. You set the project up with the idea of it being the first step towards engaging other consultants and licensing and certifying people. How do you have now, or when you started, how was your approach to spreading the word and getting it out there? Did you have a particular use case in mind for using the book with groups of people or through or with other professional organizations? \n\nClare: I have. I do belong to several networking groups. I belong to Fractionals United, which is a LinkedIn or, excuse me, slack group, a large Slack group of Fractionals. I do belong to a couple of other groups. I do a fair amount of work on LinkedIn and connecting with people and I think, rather than thinking about it from the standpoint of, well, I want to get people into the program, I want to build relationships with people and find people for whom this program is really the best fit. So what we're really doing now is we're building relationships with people with whom this could be a good potential tool for them. Some people you know it's a wide spectrum out there Some people are just literally coming out of corporate or starting their marketing career and really need specific tools. Others are very experienced. They have some parts of the system, but not all. So they're using it to kind of supplement what they have and to build on what they have. So it's been kind of a wide range. \n\nStuart: That's actually those two groups. It's so interesting. And another benefit of frameworks is that a lot of times I think people's default is frameworks are good for people who are at the beginning of their journey because it lays out some step by step elements, which obviously is true. But I think the other benefit is for that group of people, as you described, is very experienced. They've got a lot of their own systems already. But looking at other people's frameworks, there's an opportunity to plug some gaps, if you notice some gaps, but also just structure it, because at that point in your journey you're bringing so much subconscious knowledge that when looking and assessing another framework, it just allows you to appreciate it at a whole other level and bring in some depth to the conversation rather than starting from scratch. So those two groups such a huge benefit for them. \n\nClare: The other thing, too, stuart, that I want to add is that it also helps consultants in particular who want to build, like seven figure practices scale, because when you are a fractional CMO, you can typically handle three to five clients, depending on what your work style is and what the client's requirements are. With a framework like this, you can bring in a junior partner or a junior employee and teach them the framework, teach them the system, and they can then employ that system and help you scale your practice to that next level. \n\nStuart: Such a great point, and whether that's them taking on their own clients and running them end to end through the whole system, or whether you break it down so that they're specializing in certain elements of the framework itself, it really frees up the value and the effort into something a lot more systematized and manageable, rather than just saying go out there and hope for the best. \n\nClare: Exactly, exactly and again, because it's rinse and repeat, it also gets to the point where you can get into a rhythm with your clients, where you know and this is another issue that happens a lot of times with consultants is how long is this going to take? How is the client going to respond? Are we going to have stops and holdups in our process? This does definitely reduce those kind of hiccups in the process. The client is again because clients more engaged, they tend not to have those times where they have to step away. Anything can happen in the world and we know that People have lives and families and things do change. But we've found that this does reduce that interrupt to the process, to the work that we're doing with them. \n\nStuart: Which, again, going into it, anyone who's experienced on this side of the working model with clients this way I'm sure it's not going to be news to those, but certainly people who entering into this world, perhaps out of the corporate space and again where we are recording now, the work environment is a lot different than it's been over the last couple of years and there are probably more people now coming into the world of trying to do something for themselves because they've been let go. So, going into that, coming out of the corporate world, you kind of expect that the challenge in the hold-ups would be from your side yourself, maybe not having the best working practices or over-committing and things happening. But the reality is that a lot of those delays and you'll be waiting a lot for clients and no for us in the book business and even on the podcast business as well. It's surprising how much we try to minimize the client deliverables, but it's surprising how much you have to wait for those. So I think, to be able to give the clients a framework and an expectation and allow them to plan out where their pieces of the puzzle fall in it's again. \n\nIt's just why I love frameworks so much, because it just clarifies the picture for everyone and makes it so much more achievable and attainable. Absolutely, time goes fast on these podcasts all the time. I want to make sure that people have got an opportunity to follow along with what you guys are doing, and of the audience. There's going to be a mix, I think, of people who are interested in the framework to implement it themselves and then clients who might be looking for someone to implement it for them. So where's a good place for people to find out more about the organization and what you're doing? \n\nClare: So let me just real quickly share the audience copy of the book. Can you see this okay. \n\nStuart: It's Zoom background is making it disappear a little bit. \n\nClare: Oh, okay. \n\nStuart: In the show notes. I'll make sure that I put a copy of the cover just so they can. \n\nClare: Okay, and yes, I encourage anybody who's interested. They can go to our website that's octaingrowth.com. We have a special offer, for your listeners. They can go to octaingrowth.com/myoffer and download a copy of the first chapter of the book, as well as sign up for to spend some time with me for any marketing question or conversation they'd like to have. \n\nStuart: That's fantastic. I'll make sure that we put links to those in the show notes and on the website. So if people are listening on the podcast play, just scroll across the show notes or on the website there'll be a link directly to it. As I say, I'm a huge fan of frameworks. I particularly like this one because of the structure as it moves from the three elements, because no matter where your jumping off point is, it gives you something to dive into. So really recommend that people go and get that copy of the chapter and then get the copy of the book I mean, that's the next step and then reach out to you. I think as well. \n\nIf people have got the framework questions about the program, it's jumping on a call. I've had this experience myself this year maybe more than in the past, but jumping on a quick call to talk with people is so much more effective than trying to do it by email or text. It's the years I kind of vid moved away from speaking with people. It was strange though it sounds, but really in the last 12 months it's been a huge difference maker. Is there anything that we've? I'm always conscious of talking with people who I know less than our typical authors. Is there anything that we skipped over or didn't cover so far? That would be. I want to miss anything. \n\nClare: I don't think so. I think this was a great conversation. I really appreciate your time and really the way that you explore all the different opportunities. And again, I just really want to reiterate and underline that I do think your process with your 90-minute books is a new trend in marketing and I would encourage people to take advantage of it. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, I appreciate it. Likewise, I appreciate your time as well. It's always fun having a conversation with someone and then being able to dive a little bit deeper and share it with the audience. So we'll make sure we've got this out in the next. I think the week after we record this we'll be going live. As I say, we'll make sure that there's links to to the offer page, so people should definitely follow along with that, and it'll be interesting to circle back in a few months down the track and get that kind of input on how the certification the beta groups going through at the moment, but how people are receiving it and taking that framework, I welcome the opportunity to talk with you anytime, stuart. \n\nClare: I really appreciate again your time and this engaging, wonderful conversation. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, everyone thanks for listening and watching along. As I say, check out the notes and follow Clare. We'll put Clare's link data address in there as well, so follow Clare there. As always, let us know if you're thinking about writing a book yourself. If you've got any questions about the process, just reach out to us at support at 90-minute books or me directly at Stuart at 90-minute books, and we'll be happy to help. So, Clare, thanks again for your time. Everyone thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Clare Price, CEO of Octane Growth Systems and author of Smart Marketing Execution, about leveraging books as strategic business tools.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about how she created a framework based on her work and turned it into a comprehensive operating system for marketing consultants, fractional CMOs, and agency owners centred around a three-tier framework of strategy, execution, and automation.
\n\nIt's a great example of 'Naming and Claiming,' an approach allowing you to create tangible and documented elements to ensure project success, as well as developing deeper connections with clients to increase business success.
\n\nWe wrap up talking about her experience using her book to introduce her system and how that supports her licensing and certification programs.
\n\nThis is a great episode with some really valuable insights into scaling an idea by owning your approach.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/152
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nClare: I'm doing great, Stuart. Thanks very much for having me today.
\n\nStuart: No problem, it's a pleasure. I'm excited about this conversation because I think it's going to be a good illustration for people on the usefulness of having a book, because it's something that you've used a couple of times in your business and when our conversation started the idea of a podcast or I don't think I even knew that you had a book when we were first introduced so it's a real benefit, I think, to share with everyone. Now that's kind of come out and we've got an opportunity to talk about it a little bit more. Why don't we start by going into a bit of your background and share kind of your journey in the business and we can then bridge into the book and the framework, which I'm really excited to share with people?
\n\nClare: Right. Thank you so much, stuart, I really appreciate it. Claire Price, I am the founder and CEO of Octane Growth Systems, and we work with marketing consultants, fractional CMOs and agency owners who want to do more with their clients, building a high quality deliverable in half the time. We believe that the days of just doing straight marketing activity are over, and the companies really need to change into and transition into a marketing operating environment and operating system in order to be successful in today's market, and so we've developed one.
\n\nStuart: And it's exciting the last show that I recorded as we were recording today it was yesterday but it'll be the previous week in the show world we were talking a little bit there about the idea of creating frameworks as an easy way for people to understand and almost give milestones from moving forwards. So I think in the fractional world, almost more than the just the full-time employee world fractional owners or fractional providers really need more frames to be able to scale, because the nature of the business is more kind of scale dependent than it is perhaps for in-house people. But obviously there's a benefit across the board. The framework that you've got. I don't talk a little bit about that. Obviously we'll give links to the book so that people can grab a copy of it later, but just at a high level let's kind of introduce it and then we can dive into it a little bit more.
\n\nClare: I would love to.
\n\nI do want to second what you just said about fractional and needing operating systems.
\n\nOne of the biggest issues and I made that transition myself several years ago that people have when they decide that they want to move into the fractional market is they're moving from a corporate environment where they have a lot of resources and they have a big team and they can delegate, into a situation where a lot of it is all on them, so they have their experience to offer, which is a great gift to small business owners, because more and more small business owners need that high level of corporate thinking to be provided to them and fractional CMOs can do that. But in addition to that, they also need a way to help that business and to move forward and I think systems and frameworks is the way to do that. And that is actually why I developed my system, which is the Octane Gross System, and it's three components it's a strategy component, an execution component and an automation, and the reason we call it an operating system is because we bring those three things together, integrate them for our clients and for the consultants that are licensing the system.
\n\nStuart: It's interesting actually and never really thought about it before, but that mirror is my experience.
\n\nSo I moved out of a corporate job something years ago now and moving that was one of the big surprises in a way. Moving from an organisation I was on the IT side of the house moving from an organisation where you not only had resources but also more people, bringing a commonality of thinking. We're in the project management space, which I don't know how it's in the US, but in the UK that's pretty structured as well around certain frameworks and then all of the members on the project, all of the members on the team, were all thinking in that same way. So your individual responsibilities might be pretty broad and there was a lot of work to do, but at every point that you intersected with someone else there was a commonality of language and approach, and that is really something that is not replicated without systems like yours in the smaller business worlds. So I think it's an outsized benefit that is often overlooked. It's not just the individual parts of the expertise, but really how they stitch together.
\n\nClare: I think it maximizes the ability of a fractional consultant to use their experience, because one of the things that is a struggle when you first especially when you first get started or you're in this first couple of years of working with clients is how do I get what I need from the client, how do I get the client to tell me about their ideal customer? How do I get the client to tell me what their story is? And one of the things that we've done with the Octane Grose system is we have developed a full set of tools, assessments and worksheets that we have then taken over the last 10 years and proven will produce the data that in probably 80 to 85 percent of the data you need to produce those deliverables for your clients.
\n\nStuart: And that's the thing, isn't it?
\n\nTaking all of that learning and distilling it into something that's useful and actionable. I really like the three tiers of the framework, talking about strategy, execution and automation or amplification. There are three areas and almost building on them from one to the other really helps kind of set the scene and then move their engagement forward. And almost I mean we're talking about the fractional owner's side of things and how that could be implemented. But from the business owner's side of things as well, knowing that there's some, they can see the signposts of where the engagement is going and where we're trying to get to. So it's not just turning up to a meeting and laying the track as you go or not seeing the bigger picture from the start. It really seems like it would be a benefit on the owner's side as well as the fractional side. Do you get much engagement isn't that a word? But much uptake for this type of product from owner operators who are trying to do it themselves, as well as implementers who are trying to do it on behalf of others?
\n\nClare: Well, that's who we typically work with, because we eat our own dog food, as they say, or drink our own champagne, as someone else puts it, which I like a lot better because we are also my team's also fractional CMOs. So we are continuing to work with small business owners. We do have clients that want to do a lot of it themselves, but what we do in our approach and I think it's really we found a sweet spot, stuart, and that is we call it client collaboration, because in a traditional consulting model which I came out of the consulting world I was a research director for Gartner for 10 years and the typical consulting world is have the discovery call with the client, go away, disappear behind the curtain, produce the deliverable, come back and hand it off to the client. The issue with that is the client really doesn't know what you're doing, and when they don't know what you're doing, particularly in that mid-sized market where budgets are always tight and we always have to make choices about what we spend our money on if I don't really understand what you're doing, do I really know the value that I'm paying for?
\n\nSo what we offer is what we call client collaboration, and so, with all of our tools. The client and the consultant are working together to produce the deliverable, so they take it step by step. We use a Canvas model, so if you're familiar with something like Lean Stack or the OnePage Business Plan, we use a similar model approach and then, as we walk through each cell of the Canvas, the client and the consultant are working together to create the deliverable. The consultant adds their expertise, their evaluation, their analysis to the final deliverable. But the client has an opportunity to not only buy in to what they're doing, but also create the value create their own value and, of course, it makes it a lot more important to them and a lot more likely that they're going to go through with the implementation.
\n\nStuart: And that's such an overlooked element to the whole success of the project. I think so many people get stuck in, particularly coming from the big consulting side of the world, because it's very transaction. You're responsible for the deliverable piece. This big team are out there onto the next job before you've even started the first one. So whether or not an organization ultimately uses it is almost secondary or irrelevant because you've moved on to the next task. But in a small business world, a medium business world, where you've got a long-term engagement, you're more connected with the people because it's actually the checkwriters are the people that you're working with to have that buy in and hopefully then increase the likelihood that something will happen from it. It's not just the work done but there's an actual useful business outcome to it that really makes a difference in the success of others, or only getting paid if the client gets results. All of those talking points that management theories will spit out as a good way of running a business by having that tie in from the start really makes much more of a connection the framework that you've got. So we have a lot of conversations with people who are in similar situations. They may be not on the fractional side of things or service providers, but they've certainly got a framework that they use within their business that if they could quantify it and share that with clients.
\n\nI often one of our friends in the world is a guy called Joe Polish.
\n\nHe owned a carpet cleaning business years and years ago when he first started out, and one of the things that he would do was a room by room carpet.
\n\nI'm tripping over on what he calls it the pressure of thinking of the name. It was a carpet analysis when they go in and clean. So rather than going in and saying, oh yeah, the carpet is dirty, it needs cleaning, he would go in and draw out a grid and then mark on his estate and his aware and then give that to the client as evidence of oh, it's not just a finger in the air that you need assets. Here's the actual evidence that it's needed. So, similarly with your framework, it's a documented framework that not only tells people that, hey, we know what we're doing and we can do stuff, but here's exactly the steps that we're going to follow so long way, built into the question which is how easy was it to take what you've done and the knowledge that you've built over the 10 years and turn it into a documented framework. Was that relatively straightforward or was that quite a lift to just formalize it in that way?
\n\nClare: It was actually a self-hosted process I produced in 2012,.
\n\nI produced a series of five playbooks their PDF playbooks I'm no longer available, but they were the start of this system brought those out to the market and was able to really learn from that structure what was workable at the small business level.
\n\nBecause one of the real challenges with doing systems and frames if you're a system analysis person, you are typically an analyst, you're a complex thinker, you are a designer, you're a creator, all a visionary. In many cases, your client is in the weeds and so they're not going to take the time to spend a lot of think time on figuring out how to do the marketing, for example, that you would give to them. What they want is they want a solution. So what we had to do is we had to figure out how can we make this easy for small business owners, medium for busy businesses whether they're 10 million or 50 million, they're definitely moving at 1,000 miles an hour. How can we make it so that they can easily get the value and get the results that they're looking from this framework, from the system? And that's where the development of the tools came in, and those did take multiple iterations to get them to the point where they're really producing the kind of data that we're looking for.
\n\nStuart: Those iterations were there iterations with clients? It was kind of a refinement process, or was it show yourself in a dark frame, yeah?
\n\nClare: pretty much all with clients and all with clients in different vertical markets. We've tested this system with clients in 22 different vertical markets, everything from an apparel startup to a truck, a major trucking company in the Sacramento area, where I just moved from a few years ago from Sacramento to Raleigh. So working with different companies, different types of people, different company requirements is, I think, what has given this really the power of what we're able to offer.
\n\nStuart: And testing it in the real world. That's such an old world model of locking yourself away and creating something behind closed doors I mean, I guess, unless you're Apple trying to create the next piece of hardware in secrecy for 90% of us out there in the real world as business owners engaging with real people, the far more successful way of doing it is to start with the first contract, the first piece of work, and then move and develop kind of iteratively. But in the real world I think it's very difficult to justify just closing away and holding off on a project for multiple months or even years in the hope of hitting the perfect one in secrecy and it being a home run.
\n\nClare: Could not agree with you more. I think that the real people are going to use this real people. You need to have real people's feedback and experience. That's what we're doing right now. We've launched the first cohort of our training program and we have 44 beta users who are really giving us a good, the bad and the ugly of how this is working for them, so that we can continue to evolve it, because the goal is to make this so easy that both the business owner and the consultant can just wear it like a real comfortable suit of clothes.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that familiarity and every console has been worked out in the real world with the real feedback. I think it's a conversation that we have on a number of times around the books because we're really trying to go for that lean approach of a quick process of get the first version out there and then pivot or tweak or change based on the real world feedback, as opposed to the traditional world of publishing which is tens of thousands of dollars in months and months of time and therefore it does need to be. It's kind of like a one-shot deal. This much more agile, adaptive approach really means so you get it out there working. And I mean we were talking to a friend last week about Facebook ads and testing there and they were saying that it really is. They're doing a big scale like millions of dollars a month budget and they were saying it really is.
\n\nYou have to get through 90% of the failing ads just to learn the 10% of work, but it's the 10% that pays for the 90% and then beyond and it's. I guess it's quite daunting because when you think back to writing things in school, you have to do drafts and then submit it and then it's marked and then there's. Well, for me at least, there was red pen all over it and it's almost a. It doesn't encourage you to want to just put something out there and try it, whereas where we are in putting it out there and trying it is the most effective way of going.
\n\nClare:I really agree. I think the model that you have with the 90-minute books and really putting out that first version and letting it, you're in you. I think you're at the forefront of a real trend in, particularly in content marketing, because it's all about creator content, it's not about. It's creating content by community and by you know users working together, and I think the model that you've created lends itself so well to to that new trending content marketing, so that your book authors can really experience something that I think you know even two years ago would have been looked at kind of a little bit a scant maybe, but now it's definitely the way to go.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, actually it's interesting. Kevin, who I recorded with yesterday, so again will be the the show before this he actually just finished the second book and we were talking about that and the second book came from the first one. So he's in the sales marketing type world, okay, working with sales teams. So his first book was 20 of his ideas, aimed to be a relatively not high level, but none of them were super detailed, but it was the 20 lowest hanging fruit or the easiest things that could come from it, and one of the ideas that he included was about writing personal biographies. It was just something that they've done for years. It was just literally one of the 20, but all of the feedback that he got was about that particular element Exactly, a marker from the community that this was something that there was much more of an expectation of, or an opportunity, rather, to dig into a bit deeper.
\n\nBut your framework. So the three elements of the strategy, execution and automation there's various different. Again 2023, there's a lot of talk of automation and AI and the opportunities there, and I think some people are hoping that it's going to be a silver bullet, which means minimal effort, hit a button and maximum output, which obviously isn't the real world. Of the three, those strategy execution and automation is the one of those that the business owners themselves typically are more interested in. The beginning Is the one element that kind of is the hot button element, but then they're introduced to other pieces.
\n\nClare: I think that the typical entry point a lot of business owners really want is they want the execution and they often will come into an agency example very typical for someone to just go into it and say, for example, a digital marketing agency, and say I want to get leads, I want a lead generation program.
\n\nAnd if that company has a very well detailed profile of who their ideal customer is and they can tell their story well, they can jump into execution and they'll start seeing results. However, if that company does not have a good sense of their ideal customer or they want to move, for example, open up a new market, then jumping into execution will always cost them money and it's not unusual for in that scenario for someone, that's $20,000 to $50,000 trying to figure out what's the best way to get these new leads in, as we're sort of trying to figure out our way forward. If they set a strategy in the beginning, if they set a blueprint we call it as opposed to a strategy because it really is a way to build your approach then that will that we can reduce that easily, cut it in half and maybe even reduce it to 25% of the iteration cost.
\n\nStuart: Right, it really is ready. Aim fire is the ideal approach, rather than fire, hope, maybe, aim Right. I think it's so easy for people to get distracted by the kind of the above water piece of the iceberg, which is the add and the results, and miss the importance of the building blocks below. But the benefit is those building blocks are applicable in multiple different areas, so the extra value of doing that work first, which means all of the above water pieces are just going to be so much more effective it's exactly.
\n\nYeah, it's difficult to sometimes wind people back a little bit just to do the building block work. That will just make it so much more effective. Working with a number of kind of on the visionary side of the equation rather than the implemented side of the equation, it is difficult to Okay we just need to take one step back before we run too far down this route. You were talking about the fractional, other fractional people that you work with, and I know that you were when we were talking about rolling out the framework to allow other consultants to use and licensing the system. That type of thing.
\n\nThat's always something that's interesting and we did do a podcast last year sometime with someone who's dedicated in that licensing type space. It's always interesting hearing about it because we've worked with people on the franchise side of things, which is similar. How did you go from a business owner and then have an employees to thinking about licensing and out? What was that thought process around? Either the relinquishing I don't want to say relationship can control, but was it much of a step to move from just a regular model to more of a looking for other partners to work with?
\n\nClare: When I started working on the book, which was about two years ago, it was published last October. So that was the point of the book was to prepare for the idea of licensing the system. So the first step was to provide the information about the system. In the book, smart marketing execution has the step by step details of the system, has examples of the tools. Tools are available to download on the website.
\n\nSo the idea was that the book should be kind of that initial foundation and I think you do the same thing with your 90-minute books as well, stuart as you create that foundation for people who can then take it and move it to that next level, whether they license it or not or whether they simply use it with their own client base. I think it is that definitely that foundational step. And then the next step is to take what you've done that you're comfortable with and really and that's where we are now is really learn how to make it really effective for others to use. So that's our certification program that we're, like I say we're just in the beginning stages of is, with people learning it, so that we can continue to refine the approach and make sure that it's the best customer experience for both the consultant and for their clients.
\n\nStuart: Such a fantastic opportunity to put more, more opportunity out in the world. The individual reach of any one person is kind of limited to their sphere of influence, no matter how effective they are at that to be able to share what's working with more clients through more providers. I think it's an opportunity that more businesses have got than perhaps they realize, and I get that it's not necessarily something that immediately springs to mind, but I think anyone with a framework, where that framework has got proven results, it's definitely an opportunity for more people to take on board that idea of licensing it out. It's almost like the strategic coach approach of the, the free zone frontier and the amplifying three partnerships rather than thinking about locking something down and restricting it, it's making it available within the constraints but as available as possible.
\n\nClare: Absolutely Now. I would encourage anyone out there who has a even in, even in the beginning ideas of the framework sewer to contact you and to look at your 90 minute book process. Even if they end up not using it for anything more than themselves and their own clients as a way to do it, it will clarify their thinking, it will give them a tool, it will give them that next growth step in their business. So I think it's an ideal approach.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I appreciate it. Actually I was funny, I should say. They clarified the thing again. We recorded a podcast with someone a couple of weeks ago and that was one of their feedback as well. They were saying that actually this process having to explain to Christie who they were working with to create their book, having to explain to a level of detail that they hadn't necessarily had to explain before, because either they're talking with clients who don't need to know that level of detail they were happy just to. They were already clients, so they were happy just to move on with what the?
\n\nperson was talking about, or they were talking to employees and perhaps there was the employees come with their own ideas, or there was some reluctance to kind of ask what might seem like basic or obvious questions because they were worried about seeming like they didn't know what they were talking about. So to have to go through and explain it, and it actually opened up a couple of other parts of the chapters and explaining things in ways that they just never articulated before. It was in here but it had never kind of come out in a way that was easy to understand and share with someone else.
\n\nClare: Exactly.
\n\nStuart: Brings us to this idea of how the books created. The frameworks and the explanations are there. You set the project up with the idea of it being the first step towards engaging other consultants and licensing and certifying people. How do you have now, or when you started, how was your approach to spreading the word and getting it out there? Did you have a particular use case in mind for using the book with groups of people or through or with other professional organizations?
\n\nClare: I have. I do belong to several networking groups. I belong to Fractionals United, which is a LinkedIn or, excuse me, slack group, a large Slack group of Fractionals. I do belong to a couple of other groups. I do a fair amount of work on LinkedIn and connecting with people and I think, rather than thinking about it from the standpoint of, well, I want to get people into the program, I want to build relationships with people and find people for whom this program is really the best fit. So what we're really doing now is we're building relationships with people with whom this could be a good potential tool for them. Some people you know it's a wide spectrum out there Some people are just literally coming out of corporate or starting their marketing career and really need specific tools. Others are very experienced. They have some parts of the system, but not all. So they're using it to kind of supplement what they have and to build on what they have. So it's been kind of a wide range.
\n\nStuart: That's actually those two groups. It's so interesting. And another benefit of frameworks is that a lot of times I think people's default is frameworks are good for people who are at the beginning of their journey because it lays out some step by step elements, which obviously is true. But I think the other benefit is for that group of people, as you described, is very experienced. They've got a lot of their own systems already. But looking at other people's frameworks, there's an opportunity to plug some gaps, if you notice some gaps, but also just structure it, because at that point in your journey you're bringing so much subconscious knowledge that when looking and assessing another framework, it just allows you to appreciate it at a whole other level and bring in some depth to the conversation rather than starting from scratch. So those two groups such a huge benefit for them.
\n\nClare: The other thing, too, stuart, that I want to add is that it also helps consultants in particular who want to build, like seven figure practices scale, because when you are a fractional CMO, you can typically handle three to five clients, depending on what your work style is and what the client's requirements are. With a framework like this, you can bring in a junior partner or a junior employee and teach them the framework, teach them the system, and they can then employ that system and help you scale your practice to that next level.
\n\nStuart: Such a great point, and whether that's them taking on their own clients and running them end to end through the whole system, or whether you break it down so that they're specializing in certain elements of the framework itself, it really frees up the value and the effort into something a lot more systematized and manageable, rather than just saying go out there and hope for the best.
\n\nClare: Exactly, exactly and again, because it's rinse and repeat, it also gets to the point where you can get into a rhythm with your clients, where you know and this is another issue that happens a lot of times with consultants is how long is this going to take? How is the client going to respond? Are we going to have stops and holdups in our process? This does definitely reduce those kind of hiccups in the process. The client is again because clients more engaged, they tend not to have those times where they have to step away. Anything can happen in the world and we know that People have lives and families and things do change. But we've found that this does reduce that interrupt to the process, to the work that we're doing with them.
\n\nStuart: Which, again, going into it, anyone who's experienced on this side of the working model with clients this way I'm sure it's not going to be news to those, but certainly people who entering into this world, perhaps out of the corporate space and again where we are recording now, the work environment is a lot different than it's been over the last couple of years and there are probably more people now coming into the world of trying to do something for themselves because they've been let go. So, going into that, coming out of the corporate world, you kind of expect that the challenge in the hold-ups would be from your side yourself, maybe not having the best working practices or over-committing and things happening. But the reality is that a lot of those delays and you'll be waiting a lot for clients and no for us in the book business and even on the podcast business as well. It's surprising how much we try to minimize the client deliverables, but it's surprising how much you have to wait for those. So I think, to be able to give the clients a framework and an expectation and allow them to plan out where their pieces of the puzzle fall in it's again.
\n\nIt's just why I love frameworks so much, because it just clarifies the picture for everyone and makes it so much more achievable and attainable. Absolutely, time goes fast on these podcasts all the time. I want to make sure that people have got an opportunity to follow along with what you guys are doing, and of the audience. There's going to be a mix, I think, of people who are interested in the framework to implement it themselves and then clients who might be looking for someone to implement it for them. So where's a good place for people to find out more about the organization and what you're doing?
\n\nClare: So let me just real quickly share the audience copy of the book. Can you see this okay.
\n\nStuart: It's Zoom background is making it disappear a little bit.
\n\nClare: Oh, okay.
\n\nStuart: In the show notes. I'll make sure that I put a copy of the cover just so they can.
\n\nClare: Okay, and yes, I encourage anybody who's interested. They can go to our website that's octaingrowth.com. We have a special offer, for your listeners. They can go to octaingrowth.com/myoffer and download a copy of the first chapter of the book, as well as sign up for to spend some time with me for any marketing question or conversation they'd like to have.
\n\nStuart: That's fantastic. I'll make sure that we put links to those in the show notes and on the website. So if people are listening on the podcast play, just scroll across the show notes or on the website there'll be a link directly to it. As I say, I'm a huge fan of frameworks. I particularly like this one because of the structure as it moves from the three elements, because no matter where your jumping off point is, it gives you something to dive into. So really recommend that people go and get that copy of the chapter and then get the copy of the book I mean, that's the next step and then reach out to you. I think as well.
\n\nIf people have got the framework questions about the program, it's jumping on a call. I've had this experience myself this year maybe more than in the past, but jumping on a quick call to talk with people is so much more effective than trying to do it by email or text. It's the years I kind of vid moved away from speaking with people. It was strange though it sounds, but really in the last 12 months it's been a huge difference maker. Is there anything that we've? I'm always conscious of talking with people who I know less than our typical authors. Is there anything that we skipped over or didn't cover so far? That would be. I want to miss anything.
\n\nClare: I don't think so. I think this was a great conversation. I really appreciate your time and really the way that you explore all the different opportunities. And again, I just really want to reiterate and underline that I do think your process with your 90-minute books is a new trend in marketing and I would encourage people to take advantage of it.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, I appreciate it. Likewise, I appreciate your time as well. It's always fun having a conversation with someone and then being able to dive a little bit deeper and share it with the audience. So we'll make sure we've got this out in the next. I think the week after we record this we'll be going live. As I say, we'll make sure that there's links to to the offer page, so people should definitely follow along with that, and it'll be interesting to circle back in a few months down the track and get that kind of input on how the certification the beta groups going through at the moment, but how people are receiving it and taking that framework, I welcome the opportunity to talk with you anytime, stuart.
\n\nClare: I really appreciate again your time and this engaging, wonderful conversation.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, everyone thanks for listening and watching along. As I say, check out the notes and follow Clare. We'll put Clare's link data address in there as well, so follow Clare there. As always, let us know if you're thinking about writing a book yourself. If you've got any questions about the process, just reach out to us at support at 90-minute books or me directly at Stuart at 90-minute books, and we'll be happy to help. So, Clare, thanks again for your time. Everyone thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Clare Price, CEO of Octane Growth Systems and author of 'Smart Marketing Execution', about leveraging books as strategic business tools. \r\n\r\nWe had a great conversation about how she created a framework based on her work and turned it into a comprehensive operating system for marketing consultants, fractional CMOs, and agency owners centred around a three-tier framework of strategy, execution, and automation. \r\n\r\nIt's a great example of 'Naming and Claiming,' an approach allowing you to create tangible and documented elements to ensure project success, as well as developing deeper connections with clients to increase business success. \r\n\r\nWe wrap up talking about her experience using her book to introduce her system and how that supports her licensing and certification programs.\r\n\r\nThis is a great episode with some really valuable insights into scaling an idea by owning your approach. ","date_published":"2023-11-05T09:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/82d48c3e-908f-4414-818f-d713f4a0bf2f.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26602470,"duration_in_seconds":2143}]},{"id":"c6a46a53-22d1-4950-9778-8762159c96c9","title":"Ep151: Filling a Demand with Kevin Berwald","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/151","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\n \n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kevin Berwald, chartered financial planner and CMO of Catalyst4Growth, a sales team development organization, about his latest book Get More Great Referrals in Less Time, a book born from the feedback he received from an earlier book he created.\n\nThis first book contained 20 big ideas that sales professionals can use to acquire more clients. One was the suggestion to create a professional biography as an introduction tool. It was an idea that generated a lot of interest and new clients. Feedback and success that led to Kevin creating a book specifically on this subject.\n\nIt's a great example of a 'LEAN' approach to using a book as a conversation starter. You can never be sure which ideas will resonate with potential clients, but when you identify a hot topic - Double down and generate all the leads you need.\n\nWe had a great conversation about this and about the idea itself, creating a professional biography you can share with people to help them understand and remember the referral opportunities you're looking for. We discuss the seven essential elements of a successful biography and advise on deepening each element's impact. Kevin also highlights the power of personal details in building trust and connections. \n\nThere are a lot of great takeaways here, both when thinking about using a book to build your business and creating a professional bio to easily share what you do.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nThis episode features Kevin Berwald, and we discussed the power of professional biographies as a tool for personal and business growth.\nKevin's first book contained 20 big ideas for business and personal growth, three of which unexpectedly became central themes, one of which was the power of a professional biography as a dynamic introduction tool.\nProfessional biographies have become popular with salespeople as they allow for quick and effective introduction and referral rates.\nThe conversation explores Kevin's referral strategy and its significant impact on businesses, specifically focusing on identifying the ideal client and how to effectively communicate your message to them.\nHe explains how a well-constructed professional biography can control client perception and influence them towards making referrals.\nThe psychological aspects attached to professional biographies and how to effectively wield them to secure referrals are also discussed.\nWe outline the seven core elements that form the foundation of a successful biography and offers advice on how to delve into each element to achieve the desired outcome.\nThe importance of distilling our narratives to their core elements and adding a memorable quote to the biography is also discussed.\nHe explains how a successful biography can serve as the launchpad for a second book that delves into the ideas presented in the original book.\nThe podcast episode provides valuable insights into how to use professional biographies as a strategic tool for business growth and success.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nKevin Berwald - LinkedIn\nCatalyst4growth\nKevin's previous Episode\nAmazon\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/151\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here, not being able to speak today, which is a bad sign for a podcast. But a good sign for the podcast is we've got Kevin Berwald back with us. Kevin, how are you doing? \n\nKevin:I'm doing great. Thanks for having me Fantastic. \n\nStuart: We just had some technical issues getting sorted out. So if anyone is watching along on the video and sees me kind of staring off screen, I'm not distracted. It's just I had to move Kevin down here somewhere and I try to remember to keep looking here. But hopefully that doesn't confuse me too much, kevin, we had a great feedback on the last show. I linked the last episode in the show notes actually, if anyone didn't manage to catch the first one. But this we visit or an update is going to be super exciting for people because it kind of gives people a real world feedback on what can happen from a first book and lead into the second. So why don't you start with probably just quickly recap for people, if they're joining this one for the first time, about you and what you do, and then we can talk about the new book, which I think is going to be a really exciting case study for people. \n\nKevin:Sure. Well, you know, this journey with with you guys has really helped propel several of the businesses that we work in. The primary one is now a company that's called catalyst4growth is our website, which has really taken off. \n\nI can't thank you guys enough for the work and support you gave us on my first book, because that book had 20 big ideas in it and knowledge torches that is used to help people grow their business and their lives and has brought so much satisfaction to me and so many other people. But then the next step was what came out of that book. So the interesting thing you really put yourself out there when you write down what you think are some of the biggest ideas to help in the overall catalyst for the sales cycle for people when they're growing their business and generating clients. I don't know if it was ironic or intended, but three big ideas came out of that book and really they weren't the ideas that I thought were going to come out, and one of them has to do with creating a professional biography that is used as an introduction tool. It's really the tool that just crosses the chasm to help your centers of influences and your current best clients introduce you to other clients. \n\nWe didn't see this coming, but it was. After probably a dozen to 15 different conference calls, presentations at different conferences, zoom meetings, I started getting requests almost daily from salespeople around the country who said how do I create a professional biography and what are the big ideas to help me implement it? And it got to the point where it was very difficult to handle that volume. So the easiest way to help people grow their business and get more introductions in shorter time to their best clients is to create a book and give them some homework and prep to put everything together before it gets to me. And that's how the book was created so that we can help people much more efficiently and quickly meet their objective of creating a tool that helps them get more referrals much more quickly. \n\nStuart: And that's the second point Right, and it's such a great point, isn't it? There's an element of we talk about lead generation books so often, but there's also that smoothing the path element that when people now have consumed, are aware of the first idea, of consume the second book, to go into some details and now talking to you for the first time, it's such a time saver for everyone because you're not now going through what could be construed as the basics or the ideas. Now people are turning up with a much more advanced understanding of where they are or questions or what the next steps are, If it does speed the process along quite a lot. You were talking about this idea of the second book coming from the first one. It was the idea that they got a lot of traction In terms of the content for it and what level to pitch that at. \n\nAgain, thinking in terms of us usually talking about lead generation books and almost doing the one-on-one level of the book, this one is slightly different because it's kind of instructing people a little bit more, guiding people a little bit more specifically. So was that a different mindset or a different? You approached that in a different way to create it. \n\nKevin: Yes, I think so, and it's to the point that this book is really less than 80 pages. The content is probably down to 60. So the simplicity of this book is really part of its power, because it actually does a couple of things, and I think the latter part, which I'll mention after the first part, is the strongest. And the first thing is helping people recognize and create and think through the seven strategic elements that are actually embedded inside of a professional biography that is used as a referral tool that actually works. I don't want to say subconsciously, in a bad way, but it's a powerful subconscious message to the person who's consuming the information that we create that makes them almost not be able to hold back from calling you and giving you introductions or reaching out to you. It's a very, very powerful tool, but I've condensed it into such a small part, small amount of information that really in one flight, in an hour and a half, someone can work through this book and piece together the information that they begin to need to share with me, so that I can begin to reweave it together to create something that they're not only proud of but something that, when it is pushed out to their audience, is very receptive to them, and here's the subtle nuance of what I'm trying to say. Most people think of a professional biography almost like a resume, in that there's things that they want to say about themselves to their prospective clients, and the disconnect there is that the prospective clients don't care most of the time whether or not you have a LP's prize and a Heisman trophy for whatever services you get. They just don't care. What they care about is what's important to them, and so the nuance of creating professional biographies is communicating those things that are most important to the person consuming the information, the things that they want to hear and need to hear, and if you can convey that, then their interest is peaked. So that's the first part of creating this book making it easy to consume, easy to utilize and easy for you to get that information transferred over to me and my team to create a document for you that you can use. \n\nThe second part, which I think is really important about this book, is all the feedback that we've been getting, even before the book was created, from sales professionals around the country that just call me out of the blue and within the first week they're getting referrals right out of the from centers of influence. They start meeting people at the time and they transfer this document to them, sometimes by text or by email. The percentage of people that respond back is so dynamically greater than the old. Let me hand you a business card or check out my website. I don't even know how to quantify the value, but people will use it the first time and they'll say you know, I started using it this week and I had two people schedule meetings with me that never would have contacted me before, and I take 10 of those ideas and I put them in the back of the book. So there's two parts and this is 80 pages, and you can start to begin to create your own document, understand what the seven elements are, and then I give you 10 ideas, which aren't the only 10, but 10 at the time. There's some that have come from after this that are even stronger, but ways that give you the ideas of how you can utilize professional biography to generate more referrals and introductions to your ideal client profile. So they're in the book. So that's the big idea. \n\nA lot of people will talk about sales generation. They'll generally be talking about the overall sales cycle. They'll be talking about sales interaction and how you can be more efficient or powerful in a sales interaction where the professional biography really is positioned on both sides of it. The professional biography helps you control your perception of who you are to your ideal client profile before you get to them and then you're in the sales interaction. The other, on the book end side, is actually then, when you're done with the sales interaction, how you get more introductions or get that individual to refer more people to you. So it's bolted on and it's so simple that it makes anybody really want to use. \n\nStuart: Magic trick isn't it To be able to give someone a tool and something that they can kind of grasp in a straightforward way you mentioned before. It's long enough that you can read on a flight. We're both up in the kind of northeastern, the office is down in Florida, so that's like a two, three hour flight. So to be able to consume something in that period of time and leave with something actionable, that's not often the case. I mean, oftentimes people are starting journeys with other professionals in a way that it's the beginning of a long process. So to be able to deliver something that is that valuable in that short period of time, that starts your relationship with them off on such a different footing. I can imagine the feedback that you're getting from people. As you say, I've read this yesterday, I did the action yesterday evening and today it's out there generating leads. It really is quite a magic trick. \n\nKevin: You know it kind of is, and sometimes the most simplest things, the easiest, smallest tools, all that's needed to be the catalyst to really take you where you want to go. In fact, right right before we got on this call, I just printed off four just replies back I've had from people in the last couple of weeks. I'd like to share a couple just to give you some feedback. \n\nI think there's four here. One is hey, kevin, hope you're doing well. First of all, I can't wait to share with you how this tool has really been helping my personal practice. It is amazing and well worth the investment. Here's another one. Kevin is an invaluable source to all of us advisors. Since implementing his referral strategy, my business has been completely transformed. I've received more referrals this year than in any of my previous three years combined. He has a very special way of getting you to envision the ideal client and how to communicate what that looks like. His advice is priceless. Here's another short one. Check out this email on a referral that one of my clients sent. He included my bio, just like Kevin suggested. I'll keep you posted on when I meet with him. Thanks, kevin, you're the man. That's kind of nice. \n\nThen a quick story. This one is a couple paragraphs, but my hubby and me were recently up in Traverse City visiting the vineyards. When my sister-in-law and her friends who had just arrived from Atlanta, georgia when, asked what it is I do, I replied a financial advisor. Whereupon the friend said could you, she could use one as her mother who she is? The POA power of attorney has money earning nothing in the bank. Instead of giving him a business card, he texted over or emailed over the professional biography. He goes on to say that as soon as he sent it, a reply came back saying can I call you early next week to discuss my mother's account? I was floored and stunned on how effortless it was to follow up on her casual statement need of an advisor over an introduction. That happened regularly at social meetings. Normally I would provide a business card and that would be the end of it, quite literally. \n\nThe thing is how do you connect with someone, get their contact information and really control your perception to the right person? \n\nWhen someone asks what you do and you've heard of elevator statements there's lots of ways we try to create it, but we're not always in the best frame of mind or prepared when someone asks and it doesn't always come across well, like on the golf course. \n\nI've used this on golf courses. I've said to people can I just send you my professional biography, read it, try to digest it, just give me a call back and when they do that, they give me their name and phone number and contact information or email and now I have the control information. Or when my clients refers me to someone else, they'll send this document and copy me in, while they say nice raving fan words about how great I am to that referral. It's just absolutely amazing and I know I'm doing most of the talking, but I just want to point out when I use this exact process back before we had great technology like today, there was a time when I was averaging as many as 16 new clients a month While I was using this product. I would get four a week on average while I was growing my business just using this tool. \n\nStuart: And there's so many elements to it, as you say. It's kind of so non-threatening, it positions the conversation in the way that you as the business owner want it positioning, because you're in control of what's included and your process kind of helps people highlight who it is they're looking for, use the language that will resonate with those people. So it almost becomes somewhat self-selecting in the people who receive it and are that ideal target group, are more predisposed. That next step you were talking earlier about the kind of subliminal programming element of it, but it really is that kind of persuasion elements that Robert Chalzini talks about a lot, the kind of subconscious or psychological cues in a good way, not a bad way, but it still helps move that conversation forward. \n\nThere's so many steps that mean it's easy for the person to create, easy for the person to consume and an obvious next step that it's not really a surprise that it really helps people orchestrate what they're doing in terms of referrals, as opposed to the kind of we appreciate referrals, tell your friends type type message that a lot of people are doing in just the passive sense, the people who. So there's kind of two tiers to obviously there's the people who are receiving the professional biography and how they're responding. But the people that you're dealing with, so the other advisors that you're working with this idea of the professional biography for most of them, is this a new idea or is it something that they've maybe seen in a different context or heard you talk about in a different place, and this book is, then, almost helping conversion process. \n\nKevin: It's helping them understand that this is a tool that they really need there are some people that I'll find that do have very good biographies I mean, there's nothing new under the sun, right? So there are people who have been very successful at creating and having a bio, and some that know how to use it. I don't find a lot of people who've created one that's as efficient as this process is and know how to use it, and I think that the biggest issue with all of these is sometimes you've heard the story where you'll do things so well, you'll stop using them. \n\nYou'll create a biography you'll create a marketing strategy, you'll use it for a while and then you'll go on to something else, and so it's really sometimes for some people it's just reminding them, brushing it off and giving them a new tool. But I can honestly say with complete candor, I don't know a single person no one have I met that has created a professional biography and began to use it, has ever failed. They have always gotten more referrals and they get it in shorter time, and it really is all about creating the perception I like your, you know you kind of bring me back to the, you know, using the psychological things of the way people react mentally, and there's great studies on this. But I'd say if I could boil down everything into one concept about creating a professional biography that's done the right way, that's meaningful to the correct audience, with information that they want to hear, not me telling them what I want them to know about me, but what they want to know about how I can solve their problem is sort of like this and I know there's lots of studies, but when I met you the first time, when you met me the first time or saw me the first time, or we meet anyone, we literally have hundreds of assumptions that we think about someone that are biases based on our own life and information that we have. And those biases and thoughts that we think about someone that we meet the first time only go away one or two pieces at a time. So using a document like this, especially when it's referred by someone, essentially begins to pare down and fence out all the thoughts that we don't want our target audience to think about us and they begin to only know those things that we give them along with our picture. Dating apps although I've never been on one, they've been married for 20 years, I know there's swipe rights and lefts and your picture alone just looking at someone's picture will create dozens and dozens of biases and assumptions, and that's one of the elements that we coach people through. \n\nWhat type of picture is it? What should it look like? Should it be your company? Should it be you? Should it be your team? \n\nIf I could just go a couple points further into the seven elements that are in a biography, the second one is the name, title and content, and it's funny how people wonder well, does my name, title and content really matter? Let me just say this I knew nothing else about you and I saw your picture that resonated with me and I read your title and I saw that you were a president, a CEO, whatever name you'd like to pick. That represents, without being dishonest, who you are. I'm either going to stop and read that title or I'm going to bypass it. And actually it's best if they bypass it and just think credibility right out of the gate. \n\nBut what if I put down my website there as a contact information? What if I put my assistance name next to it? Then don't people all of a sudden assume and think of me in an entirely different way of my capacity? So those things are really critical name, title, contact information and photo right out of the gate to eliminate a lot of biases that someone thinks about you or doesn't think about you. We want to control who we are and how they perceive us, and we actually spend quite a bit of time on just those elements. \n\nStuart: It's surprising, isn't it? There's definitely a point of something will fill a vacuum and if you're not putting those thoughts in someone's head and again, whenever we use these words, we're kind of talking about it in a positive sense, not a negative sense, but without sharing those thoughts or those explicit words or terms or cases that you want people to think. They are going to think it and like you're talking about, with the bias around pictures and images, that might not be a great thing. We might all disagree with it in principle and hope that it doesn't happen, but the reality is it does. So let's not be naive and ignore that fact. Let's understand it and try and make the best of the situation that happens. \n\nI really enjoy that idea of orchestrating it from start to finish and taking just that little bit of extra time to think about each of the elements in a thoughtful way that leads people towards the outcome that you want, rather than just doing something in the hope that it will work or not even thinking about it at all. There's seven elements that you've got as part of the building blocks, and then there's seven elements there in the book and they're the starting position, and then there are more. There's like a deeper level after that, or those seven elements, the real solid building blocks, and you could go deep on each of the elements. But there's not necessarily an eighth, ninth, tenth, yeah that's a good way to look at. \n\nKevin: I mean, there's probably lots of ways to diagnose this but then create a biography. I've yet to find a better way. There could be better ways to do it and it's not as though I created this out of my own mind, of my own volition. It clearly comes from a lot of help from a lot of other people over the years and, honestly, working and using biographies tactfully and intentionally myself for about 20 years or so. So the elements, if I walk through them and I describe them to you, really start from a broad concept, a broad based thought, and they work their way down to the end, because the intention of using a biography is to get someone to call you and contact you. That's the right person. So if you don't, can I just recap what the seven elements are. \n\nYeah the first is the photo. We talked about that. The second is the name, title and contact information. The third one I loved your. I had to write it down. Fill the void. You're filling the void. I think that's so great, but a personal or borrowed quote if you knew nothing else, you had to fill the void, as it were. The quote says so much about who you are in context. So using a quote that is aligned with your, your own vision and your own principles and what you actually provide to people, I think is so critical. The fourth element is it's a the biggest chunk and it's professional and personal information. The professional information is just enough to say that I had credibility. \n\nThis document isn't designed to give someone an entire dissertation. It's just enough to ask them, to want them to ask for more information, and that's why there's only seven elements. You could put lots more in it, but you'll do that later. This is just enough that someone can get through a quickly digested and then psychologically say to themselves I need to call you. The personal information, by the way, is most important. In mine, for an example, I mentioned that I wrestled in college, that I raise honeybees, that I live on an island on the edge of Lake Erie and like the boat and fish. So people will sometimes see my picture and I've never met them before. As I'm going to meet them, they'll call me, they'll see me and they'll say Kevin, how are you? They'll reach out, shake their hand and they'll talk to me for 15 minutes about raising honeybees and we become friends and trust each other way before anything else happens. Once that occurs, as long as there's synergies that are compliant, they'll almost always do business with me. So I think the most important crafted piece is to get that personal information down so that people aren't scared of interacting with you. In fact, they want them to think that possibly you might actually have the same thoughts that could be friendly with them. \n\nThen we get into the value propositions, in other words what you offer people. So when people read this document, they say I need that. The sixth element of it are elements of your ideal client profile. So when someone reads that, they say they get to this point and say I need what you're offering and then they say, hey, he's talking about me. And then the seventh element is contact information and information of what you need to do to get in touch with me next. So when you follow that psychological process of controlling who you are, when it's written appropriately, when it's about them, it can be so much information that if they truly are someone who is in need of your value propositions or philosophies that you offer, they will almost always call you back because where else are they going to go? Where they have a probability of meeting someone to solve their needs. That is less scary than what you just showed them and easy for them to contact, and that's really all there is to it. \n\nStuart: Two points that stand out as you were talking there. And it stands out probably because it resonates with our approach and what we do with the books in the first place is the first one you talk about, with seven elements that we want to condense into the essence of what you're trying to communicate, because this document could be 50 pages long. We've all been in business for more than a couple of years. We can all write at length about what we do and who we can help and case studies and examples, but cutting down to their essence, to the smallest, almost like the minimum effective dose type approach of, I want to make this connection, give you a next step and tell you enough that you're comfortable taking that next step. And anything else that happens through the down the track is great, but it's outside of this document. This document's job of work is to make that connection, build some resonance, some reciprocity, give the ideas of what you want them to do and how you can help them next and then allow them to take that step and take conversation elsewhere. And the other point that stood out because I don't think I've heard it before. I mean you said that there's no new ideas under the sun and all of this is a distillation of your experience over the last 20 years of using this. But I think that's where the real power comes in, because, particularly these days, we're not no one's short of information. We can spend five minutes googling things and find all the information that we want, but bringing it together into a useful format, giving clear instructions of how it should work or how it could work, that's the real difference maker. \n\nSo the one that stands out from what you were saying was the quote, and that's something that I've never thought about including in bios or kind of like the thinking about it from a LinkedIn perspective. But people are very sound-biting. I mean, I don't know how much of a. I don't know whether that was always the case and people were always like that. There just wasn't the opportunity to see it so much. But certainly these days, having a sound-bite and a hook that allows people to remember you even if they're not ready to do business today, that makes it much more likely that they'll remember who you are and give some context to it when something jogs their memory six months down the track. So I think, bringing those things together in the way, not only is it efficient and effective, but there's also some great pointers in there which I'm not sure that everyone would have come across before. \n\nKevin: Maybe. So you know, I think listening to what you just said, if I encapsulated the experience that a professional biography creates, that's done the right way, might be something to the extent of what a mentor told me a long time ago when I, after I graduated college and got into the sales business, and he said Kevin, people will probably never remember much of what you say, but they will always remember exactly how they felt when they were with you. \n\nStuart: Right and it's really an experience. \n\nKevin: So you know, when we add a quote you know like, to my biography, my quote is from Napoleon Hill. It is literally true that you can succeed best and quickest by helping others to succeed. If you knew nothing else about me but my name, my title and my picture and you read that quote, you're going to think all kinds of things, but a lot of them aren't going to be, are going to be leaning towards the fact that I'm here to help you as opposed to help myself. This is more about you, it is about me, right, and that's why I quote. \n\nAnd I got to tell you that one of the most fun things about helping people build their professional biographies I've never seen too remotely alike from quotes to serve propositions to their background stories. When I learned about what motivated someone to get into the business that they're in, how they got there, when there's a true emphasis behind it of why they're doing what they're doing, it's pretty fascinating. I can spend an hour with someone just talking about their business, listening and taking notes and then creating the documents. The hardest part, the fun part, is listening. \n\nStuart: Right and that breadth of it they're making a connection with other people, isn't it? We have the same here. Having done over a thousand books now, it's surprising that even people who are in the similar businesses have completely different approaches to things. And even if they have similar approaches to things, their experience of those approaches are completely different and their take on the business or what they bring to the table, their personal background, all of those things come through and mean that the audience that you're trying to attract even if it's the strategic coach abundance idea that there aren't really competitors out there because there's more than enough business for everyone in the space and it's your unique approach that separates you and makes you resonate with Person A and someone else will resonate with Person B. So I think being able to distill all of that into this professional biography, encapsulate it into something that's easy to deliver, easy to give someone the next step such a fantastic way of bringing all those elements together at once as we said last, time goes fast in the podcast here. One thing I wanted to quickly circle back on was this idea of the second book coming from the broader ideas that were in the first. So quite often people will have a will, get feedback from people and identify another opportunity to kind of niche down into a specific way of attracting a group of people, compelling them to take the next step, and then other times it'll be external sources, that kind of highlight that there's an idea or an opportunity. So if people, or rather as people, will listen to this, we're probably in two camps. There's people who have written books already and might be on the fence. Actually, I wonder if it's. \n\nI just realised I was going to make a comment that there was someone that we did one of the early podcasts with who had a similar experience. Their book pivoted into a whole different business and, thinking about it, their name was Kevin as well. That was Kevin Craig. I'm guessing that you don't have to be called Kevin to have this epiphany, but if someone sat there, they've maybe written something, either a book, or they've got some material out there and they're thinking that there might be something in this, there might be something they can drill down into. What's the line between, yes, this is an idea that's worth going into a little bit more and potentially writing a second book about, or a book about versus? Oh, this is just something that people are generally talking about. Was there anything that was a real hot trigger that said, okay, there's definitely enough time and attention or interest out there. That means that this is worth doubling down on. \n\nKevin: Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is a premise might. So there's two parts of this. The first part is, you know, in whatever business you're in, eventually you've got to retool a message and come out with your next message. I mean, if you've written a book or you have a strategy, a sales strategy that you're utilizing, I mean, when you're using that strategy and it's working, that's the time to get to the next strategy and begin building it already. It's like Western civilization and the waves of what you've got to be doing next. So I'm always thinking of the next thing I want to do. And so, because I know that I'm going to have to write another book eventually and I've got a couple that I'm thinking of, I always have that mindset of what's going to happen in the future, thinking out six, nine, 12 months out of what I'm going to need to do. And I think, if you're paying attention and you're in our business which is, you know, as opposed to writing, you know novels or you know a series of books about a certain character fiction and in our business we're actually thinking about how we can drill down and help people, you know, reach the vision of their ideal future. Stealing a quote from someone else, but that's what we're trying to do. It means that times and evolution changes, the economy changes, politics changes, wars change, things change, and so we've got to be thinking about and aware of that change and what, trying to get ahead to where the puck's going to be somewhere out into the future. Using a hockey analogy right, I've got to be thinking about where things are. \n\nSo if you've written a book and you're getting a lot of feedback and sometimes it's the forest for the trees someone keeps tapping you on the shoulder and saying you know, I like this point, I like this point, I like this point then you've got to, you've got to realize it, wake up and think about it and you know. What you guys taught me to do, and the way we developed these books, is begin to just write down an outline of what that point is. When you write down the outline, I think you'll get an epiphany or an awareness of there's enough there or there's not. But if you're getting a lot of attention, a lot of feedback, positive feedback and just writing down the outline of what that concept is should give you a pretty good idea if you can come up with a, something that is going to be important to others and that they'll want to utilize. I hope that answers your question. \n\nStuart: Yeah, definitely, and I think I couldn't agree more on the outline elements to it. It's so much the I don't know if it's the history of how we're taught to write as kids in school, the it becomes such a process and the words themselves are so much of the things that are marked and scored, kind of flashbacks to red lines and spelling corrections through everything. But it is easy to get hung up on the actual creation of the words themselves on the written page, which really is the last part of the process. Outline the design, the strategy, the purpose those elements are the main things and that's a brainstorming exercise of taking 30 minutes and a blank piece of paper just outline. However, you prefer to outline those elements that take people from the thing that they're interested to the next step, and I couldn't agree more. \n\nIf you get that feedback from people where they're talking about particular elements and you can put that into an outline that makes sense and that's the answer straight away, the work's almost done. At that point it's just kind of filling in. The filling in. I want to make sure that people can get access to you and Borkand and find out more about what you're doing, kind of follow along with the journey. Where's the best place for people to go to check out more? \n\nKevin: Well, my email is kevin@catalyst4growth.org. That's my email. Or you can go to our website, which is catalyst4growth.org, and when you get there you'll see when you get to the resources page, that we actually have a document that you can use to fill in those seven elements of your ideal client profile. It's a free tool for you to be able to use. If you get the book which you can find on Amazon or Kindle and it's called get more referrals in less time. Or just type my name in Amazon, type in Kevin Berwald. It's at the bottom of the screen, I think, where my picture is just type that in and you'll see the books pop up. That's probably one of the easiest ways to get it Read through the elements it's 80 pages. \n\nDo yourself a favor. You will not regret doing this, even if you just write these elements down, so that you can now convey them to your clients verbally, where you couldn't before, or give it to the people who are developing your marketing programs, because we spend thousands of dollars on people to help us with marketing programs and they never understand what those key seven elements are and why we would choose them. And shouldn't that really be the foundation of what they do. So do yourself a favor, it's a gift, it's on my website. There's a presentation as examples of other biographies. And then, if you want to take it further and you want me to dust it off, you know, for 500 bucks and a few hours of work and using a quality printer, you can get a document and hard copy or a digital copy that will return any expense or time, possibly thousands of times. It's just so important to do and I'd be more than happy to help you out, or some of my team to help you out, to create yours as well. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, I'll be sure to put all of those links in the show notes. So, as people are watching along or listening on a podcast player or on the website, we'll make sure that the show notes are linked to those within the show notes and kind of shortcut that for people. One quick point you made there was not only is this an exercise that's worth doing in its own right to create the document, but it's also super useful across all sorts of other things you mentioned the marketing team and even the sales teams to understand your approach, what you do. This is a piece of work that will return benefits across multiple different use cases, not only the actual job of working, doing it in the first place, but in all of those other examples. \n\nKevin: Yeah, I guarantee it. And you know the best way to get referrals is to talk about referrals. So if you take a book like this and you use your own professional biography and someone asked you how you created it and you start talking about referrals, I'm just telling you you're just going to get more referrals from talking about referrals or sharing this book and how to create a biography with some of your best clients who are in the sales business, realtors, insurance, finance. Everything is sold. I'm just telling you sharing the book, giving it to other people, is so valuable. The law of reciprocation is so strong. When you're really in it to help someone out, they're going to reciprocate and it's just a blast. It's a change of mindset of how to grow your business. \n\nStuart: Yeah, this has been fantastic. I really enjoyed last time we spoke. We got a lot of great feedback from it and I'm sure this episode will be the same. We'll definitely make sure to put notes and links in the show notes so, as you're listening along, click through. And it would also be interesting on this one to send feedback to you if people have gone through the exercise. I'm sure I'd be interested to hear that. So make sure your email you mentioned before. I'll put that in the notes as well. So, as people are doing their biographies, definitely feed that back to Kevin as well, and maybe we can do a roundup show in a few months time and see what kind of feedback we've got and give people some pointers to take it to the next level. \n\nKevin: That's great. We're starting another podcast ourselves next month and one of the things we'll be doing is bringing on people who are having success and they'll be on our podcast. Maybe I can reciprocate with you. You could be on one of my podcasts. \n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, that'd be perfect. I'll make sure that I'm looking at the camera in the right place for yours. \n\nYeah that'd be fantastic. That'd be really interesting. And actually I think I said it last time we were talking that I need to go through and dust off mine and get it updated. This is reminding me again it's something I really need to do more urgently. So, for that show, maybe we can go through mine and I'll use their book as the tool to dust it off, and that can be a great example for people of someone getting around to do it, which I'm sure is a barrier for a lot of people. And this is the great catalyst for kind of no excuses. Now, there's not. You don't have to think about what to do, just follow the steps. So, yeah, that'd be fantastic. We can use that as an example. Awesome, perfect. \n\nOkay, time goes fast, as always, I've come. Thanks so much. We'll definitely cycle back in a couple months and get some feedback and do an update. Everyone who's listening watching along, as I say, check out the show at the top of links directly to Kevin's email, the website and the Amazon links and then let us know either feedback directly to Kevin or to us here at Stuart at 90 minute books and be really interested to see what people are doing and, of course, if this is sparked your idea of getting your book out there. Then just reach out to us at like. I say, my email address is Stuart and uscom and we'll be happy to help get that source. So thanks again, kevin. Everyone, thanks for watching and then we'll catch you in the next one. \n\nKevin: Great. Have a profitable day everyone. ","content_html":"\n\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kevin Berwald, chartered financial planner and CMO of Catalyst4Growth, a sales team development organization, about his latest book Get More Great Referrals in Less Time, a book born from the feedback he received from an earlier book he created.
\n\nThis first book contained 20 big ideas that sales professionals can use to acquire more clients. One was the suggestion to create a professional biography as an introduction tool. It was an idea that generated a lot of interest and new clients. Feedback and success that led to Kevin creating a book specifically on this subject.
\n\nIt's a great example of a 'LEAN' approach to using a book as a conversation starter. You can never be sure which ideas will resonate with potential clients, but when you identify a hot topic - Double down and generate all the leads you need.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about this and about the idea itself, creating a professional biography you can share with people to help them understand and remember the referral opportunities you're looking for. We discuss the seven essential elements of a successful biography and advise on deepening each element's impact. Kevin also highlights the power of personal details in building trust and connections.
\n\nThere are a lot of great takeaways here, both when thinking about using a book to build your business and creating a professional bio to easily share what you do.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/151
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nKevin:I'm doing great. Thanks for having me Fantastic.
\n\nStuart: We just had some technical issues getting sorted out. So if anyone is watching along on the video and sees me kind of staring off screen, I'm not distracted. It's just I had to move Kevin down here somewhere and I try to remember to keep looking here. But hopefully that doesn't confuse me too much, kevin, we had a great feedback on the last show. I linked the last episode in the show notes actually, if anyone didn't manage to catch the first one. But this we visit or an update is going to be super exciting for people because it kind of gives people a real world feedback on what can happen from a first book and lead into the second. So why don't you start with probably just quickly recap for people, if they're joining this one for the first time, about you and what you do, and then we can talk about the new book, which I think is going to be a really exciting case study for people.
\n\nKevin:Sure. Well, you know, this journey with with you guys has really helped propel several of the businesses that we work in. The primary one is now a company that's called catalyst4growth is our website, which has really taken off.
\n\nI can't thank you guys enough for the work and support you gave us on my first book, because that book had 20 big ideas in it and knowledge torches that is used to help people grow their business and their lives and has brought so much satisfaction to me and so many other people. But then the next step was what came out of that book. So the interesting thing you really put yourself out there when you write down what you think are some of the biggest ideas to help in the overall catalyst for the sales cycle for people when they're growing their business and generating clients. I don't know if it was ironic or intended, but three big ideas came out of that book and really they weren't the ideas that I thought were going to come out, and one of them has to do with creating a professional biography that is used as an introduction tool. It's really the tool that just crosses the chasm to help your centers of influences and your current best clients introduce you to other clients.
\n\nWe didn't see this coming, but it was. After probably a dozen to 15 different conference calls, presentations at different conferences, zoom meetings, I started getting requests almost daily from salespeople around the country who said how do I create a professional biography and what are the big ideas to help me implement it? And it got to the point where it was very difficult to handle that volume. So the easiest way to help people grow their business and get more introductions in shorter time to their best clients is to create a book and give them some homework and prep to put everything together before it gets to me. And that's how the book was created so that we can help people much more efficiently and quickly meet their objective of creating a tool that helps them get more referrals much more quickly.
\n\nStuart: And that's the second point Right, and it's such a great point, isn't it? There's an element of we talk about lead generation books so often, but there's also that smoothing the path element that when people now have consumed, are aware of the first idea, of consume the second book, to go into some details and now talking to you for the first time, it's such a time saver for everyone because you're not now going through what could be construed as the basics or the ideas. Now people are turning up with a much more advanced understanding of where they are or questions or what the next steps are, If it does speed the process along quite a lot. You were talking about this idea of the second book coming from the first one. It was the idea that they got a lot of traction In terms of the content for it and what level to pitch that at.
\n\nAgain, thinking in terms of us usually talking about lead generation books and almost doing the one-on-one level of the book, this one is slightly different because it's kind of instructing people a little bit more, guiding people a little bit more specifically. So was that a different mindset or a different? You approached that in a different way to create it.
\n\nKevin: Yes, I think so, and it's to the point that this book is really less than 80 pages. The content is probably down to 60. So the simplicity of this book is really part of its power, because it actually does a couple of things, and I think the latter part, which I'll mention after the first part, is the strongest. And the first thing is helping people recognize and create and think through the seven strategic elements that are actually embedded inside of a professional biography that is used as a referral tool that actually works. I don't want to say subconsciously, in a bad way, but it's a powerful subconscious message to the person who's consuming the information that we create that makes them almost not be able to hold back from calling you and giving you introductions or reaching out to you. It's a very, very powerful tool, but I've condensed it into such a small part, small amount of information that really in one flight, in an hour and a half, someone can work through this book and piece together the information that they begin to need to share with me, so that I can begin to reweave it together to create something that they're not only proud of but something that, when it is pushed out to their audience, is very receptive to them, and here's the subtle nuance of what I'm trying to say. Most people think of a professional biography almost like a resume, in that there's things that they want to say about themselves to their prospective clients, and the disconnect there is that the prospective clients don't care most of the time whether or not you have a LP's prize and a Heisman trophy for whatever services you get. They just don't care. What they care about is what's important to them, and so the nuance of creating professional biographies is communicating those things that are most important to the person consuming the information, the things that they want to hear and need to hear, and if you can convey that, then their interest is peaked. So that's the first part of creating this book making it easy to consume, easy to utilize and easy for you to get that information transferred over to me and my team to create a document for you that you can use.
\n\nThe second part, which I think is really important about this book, is all the feedback that we've been getting, even before the book was created, from sales professionals around the country that just call me out of the blue and within the first week they're getting referrals right out of the from centers of influence. They start meeting people at the time and they transfer this document to them, sometimes by text or by email. The percentage of people that respond back is so dynamically greater than the old. Let me hand you a business card or check out my website. I don't even know how to quantify the value, but people will use it the first time and they'll say you know, I started using it this week and I had two people schedule meetings with me that never would have contacted me before, and I take 10 of those ideas and I put them in the back of the book. So there's two parts and this is 80 pages, and you can start to begin to create your own document, understand what the seven elements are, and then I give you 10 ideas, which aren't the only 10, but 10 at the time. There's some that have come from after this that are even stronger, but ways that give you the ideas of how you can utilize professional biography to generate more referrals and introductions to your ideal client profile. So they're in the book. So that's the big idea.
\n\nA lot of people will talk about sales generation. They'll generally be talking about the overall sales cycle. They'll be talking about sales interaction and how you can be more efficient or powerful in a sales interaction where the professional biography really is positioned on both sides of it. The professional biography helps you control your perception of who you are to your ideal client profile before you get to them and then you're in the sales interaction. The other, on the book end side, is actually then, when you're done with the sales interaction, how you get more introductions or get that individual to refer more people to you. So it's bolted on and it's so simple that it makes anybody really want to use.
\n\nStuart: Magic trick isn't it To be able to give someone a tool and something that they can kind of grasp in a straightforward way you mentioned before. It's long enough that you can read on a flight. We're both up in the kind of northeastern, the office is down in Florida, so that's like a two, three hour flight. So to be able to consume something in that period of time and leave with something actionable, that's not often the case. I mean, oftentimes people are starting journeys with other professionals in a way that it's the beginning of a long process. So to be able to deliver something that is that valuable in that short period of time, that starts your relationship with them off on such a different footing. I can imagine the feedback that you're getting from people. As you say, I've read this yesterday, I did the action yesterday evening and today it's out there generating leads. It really is quite a magic trick.
\n\nKevin: You know it kind of is, and sometimes the most simplest things, the easiest, smallest tools, all that's needed to be the catalyst to really take you where you want to go. In fact, right right before we got on this call, I just printed off four just replies back I've had from people in the last couple of weeks. I'd like to share a couple just to give you some feedback.
\n\nI think there's four here. One is hey, kevin, hope you're doing well. First of all, I can't wait to share with you how this tool has really been helping my personal practice. It is amazing and well worth the investment. Here's another one. Kevin is an invaluable source to all of us advisors. Since implementing his referral strategy, my business has been completely transformed. I've received more referrals this year than in any of my previous three years combined. He has a very special way of getting you to envision the ideal client and how to communicate what that looks like. His advice is priceless. Here's another short one. Check out this email on a referral that one of my clients sent. He included my bio, just like Kevin suggested. I'll keep you posted on when I meet with him. Thanks, kevin, you're the man. That's kind of nice.
\n\nThen a quick story. This one is a couple paragraphs, but my hubby and me were recently up in Traverse City visiting the vineyards. When my sister-in-law and her friends who had just arrived from Atlanta, georgia when, asked what it is I do, I replied a financial advisor. Whereupon the friend said could you, she could use one as her mother who she is? The POA power of attorney has money earning nothing in the bank. Instead of giving him a business card, he texted over or emailed over the professional biography. He goes on to say that as soon as he sent it, a reply came back saying can I call you early next week to discuss my mother's account? I was floored and stunned on how effortless it was to follow up on her casual statement need of an advisor over an introduction. That happened regularly at social meetings. Normally I would provide a business card and that would be the end of it, quite literally.
\n\nThe thing is how do you connect with someone, get their contact information and really control your perception to the right person?
\n\nWhen someone asks what you do and you've heard of elevator statements there's lots of ways we try to create it, but we're not always in the best frame of mind or prepared when someone asks and it doesn't always come across well, like on the golf course.
\n\nI've used this on golf courses. I've said to people can I just send you my professional biography, read it, try to digest it, just give me a call back and when they do that, they give me their name and phone number and contact information or email and now I have the control information. Or when my clients refers me to someone else, they'll send this document and copy me in, while they say nice raving fan words about how great I am to that referral. It's just absolutely amazing and I know I'm doing most of the talking, but I just want to point out when I use this exact process back before we had great technology like today, there was a time when I was averaging as many as 16 new clients a month While I was using this product. I would get four a week on average while I was growing my business just using this tool.
\n\nStuart: And there's so many elements to it, as you say. It's kind of so non-threatening, it positions the conversation in the way that you as the business owner want it positioning, because you're in control of what's included and your process kind of helps people highlight who it is they're looking for, use the language that will resonate with those people. So it almost becomes somewhat self-selecting in the people who receive it and are that ideal target group, are more predisposed. That next step you were talking earlier about the kind of subliminal programming element of it, but it really is that kind of persuasion elements that Robert Chalzini talks about a lot, the kind of subconscious or psychological cues in a good way, not a bad way, but it still helps move that conversation forward.
\n\nThere's so many steps that mean it's easy for the person to create, easy for the person to consume and an obvious next step that it's not really a surprise that it really helps people orchestrate what they're doing in terms of referrals, as opposed to the kind of we appreciate referrals, tell your friends type type message that a lot of people are doing in just the passive sense, the people who. So there's kind of two tiers to obviously there's the people who are receiving the professional biography and how they're responding. But the people that you're dealing with, so the other advisors that you're working with this idea of the professional biography for most of them, is this a new idea or is it something that they've maybe seen in a different context or heard you talk about in a different place, and this book is, then, almost helping conversion process.
\n\nKevin: It's helping them understand that this is a tool that they really need there are some people that I'll find that do have very good biographies I mean, there's nothing new under the sun, right? So there are people who have been very successful at creating and having a bio, and some that know how to use it. I don't find a lot of people who've created one that's as efficient as this process is and know how to use it, and I think that the biggest issue with all of these is sometimes you've heard the story where you'll do things so well, you'll stop using them.
\n\nYou'll create a biography you'll create a marketing strategy, you'll use it for a while and then you'll go on to something else, and so it's really sometimes for some people it's just reminding them, brushing it off and giving them a new tool. But I can honestly say with complete candor, I don't know a single person no one have I met that has created a professional biography and began to use it, has ever failed. They have always gotten more referrals and they get it in shorter time, and it really is all about creating the perception I like your, you know you kind of bring me back to the, you know, using the psychological things of the way people react mentally, and there's great studies on this. But I'd say if I could boil down everything into one concept about creating a professional biography that's done the right way, that's meaningful to the correct audience, with information that they want to hear, not me telling them what I want them to know about me, but what they want to know about how I can solve their problem is sort of like this and I know there's lots of studies, but when I met you the first time, when you met me the first time or saw me the first time, or we meet anyone, we literally have hundreds of assumptions that we think about someone that are biases based on our own life and information that we have. And those biases and thoughts that we think about someone that we meet the first time only go away one or two pieces at a time. So using a document like this, especially when it's referred by someone, essentially begins to pare down and fence out all the thoughts that we don't want our target audience to think about us and they begin to only know those things that we give them along with our picture. Dating apps although I've never been on one, they've been married for 20 years, I know there's swipe rights and lefts and your picture alone just looking at someone's picture will create dozens and dozens of biases and assumptions, and that's one of the elements that we coach people through.
\n\nWhat type of picture is it? What should it look like? Should it be your company? Should it be you? Should it be your team?
\n\nIf I could just go a couple points further into the seven elements that are in a biography, the second one is the name, title and content, and it's funny how people wonder well, does my name, title and content really matter? Let me just say this I knew nothing else about you and I saw your picture that resonated with me and I read your title and I saw that you were a president, a CEO, whatever name you'd like to pick. That represents, without being dishonest, who you are. I'm either going to stop and read that title or I'm going to bypass it. And actually it's best if they bypass it and just think credibility right out of the gate.
\n\nBut what if I put down my website there as a contact information? What if I put my assistance name next to it? Then don't people all of a sudden assume and think of me in an entirely different way of my capacity? So those things are really critical name, title, contact information and photo right out of the gate to eliminate a lot of biases that someone thinks about you or doesn't think about you. We want to control who we are and how they perceive us, and we actually spend quite a bit of time on just those elements.
\n\nStuart: It's surprising, isn't it? There's definitely a point of something will fill a vacuum and if you're not putting those thoughts in someone's head and again, whenever we use these words, we're kind of talking about it in a positive sense, not a negative sense, but without sharing those thoughts or those explicit words or terms or cases that you want people to think. They are going to think it and like you're talking about, with the bias around pictures and images, that might not be a great thing. We might all disagree with it in principle and hope that it doesn't happen, but the reality is it does. So let's not be naive and ignore that fact. Let's understand it and try and make the best of the situation that happens.
\n\nI really enjoy that idea of orchestrating it from start to finish and taking just that little bit of extra time to think about each of the elements in a thoughtful way that leads people towards the outcome that you want, rather than just doing something in the hope that it will work or not even thinking about it at all. There's seven elements that you've got as part of the building blocks, and then there's seven elements there in the book and they're the starting position, and then there are more. There's like a deeper level after that, or those seven elements, the real solid building blocks, and you could go deep on each of the elements. But there's not necessarily an eighth, ninth, tenth, yeah that's a good way to look at.
\n\nKevin: I mean, there's probably lots of ways to diagnose this but then create a biography. I've yet to find a better way. There could be better ways to do it and it's not as though I created this out of my own mind, of my own volition. It clearly comes from a lot of help from a lot of other people over the years and, honestly, working and using biographies tactfully and intentionally myself for about 20 years or so. So the elements, if I walk through them and I describe them to you, really start from a broad concept, a broad based thought, and they work their way down to the end, because the intention of using a biography is to get someone to call you and contact you. That's the right person. So if you don't, can I just recap what the seven elements are.
\n\nYeah the first is the photo. We talked about that. The second is the name, title and contact information. The third one I loved your. I had to write it down. Fill the void. You're filling the void. I think that's so great, but a personal or borrowed quote if you knew nothing else, you had to fill the void, as it were. The quote says so much about who you are in context. So using a quote that is aligned with your, your own vision and your own principles and what you actually provide to people, I think is so critical. The fourth element is it's a the biggest chunk and it's professional and personal information. The professional information is just enough to say that I had credibility.
\n\nThis document isn't designed to give someone an entire dissertation. It's just enough to ask them, to want them to ask for more information, and that's why there's only seven elements. You could put lots more in it, but you'll do that later. This is just enough that someone can get through a quickly digested and then psychologically say to themselves I need to call you. The personal information, by the way, is most important. In mine, for an example, I mentioned that I wrestled in college, that I raise honeybees, that I live on an island on the edge of Lake Erie and like the boat and fish. So people will sometimes see my picture and I've never met them before. As I'm going to meet them, they'll call me, they'll see me and they'll say Kevin, how are you? They'll reach out, shake their hand and they'll talk to me for 15 minutes about raising honeybees and we become friends and trust each other way before anything else happens. Once that occurs, as long as there's synergies that are compliant, they'll almost always do business with me. So I think the most important crafted piece is to get that personal information down so that people aren't scared of interacting with you. In fact, they want them to think that possibly you might actually have the same thoughts that could be friendly with them.
\n\nThen we get into the value propositions, in other words what you offer people. So when people read this document, they say I need that. The sixth element of it are elements of your ideal client profile. So when someone reads that, they say they get to this point and say I need what you're offering and then they say, hey, he's talking about me. And then the seventh element is contact information and information of what you need to do to get in touch with me next. So when you follow that psychological process of controlling who you are, when it's written appropriately, when it's about them, it can be so much information that if they truly are someone who is in need of your value propositions or philosophies that you offer, they will almost always call you back because where else are they going to go? Where they have a probability of meeting someone to solve their needs. That is less scary than what you just showed them and easy for them to contact, and that's really all there is to it.
\n\nStuart: Two points that stand out as you were talking there. And it stands out probably because it resonates with our approach and what we do with the books in the first place is the first one you talk about, with seven elements that we want to condense into the essence of what you're trying to communicate, because this document could be 50 pages long. We've all been in business for more than a couple of years. We can all write at length about what we do and who we can help and case studies and examples, but cutting down to their essence, to the smallest, almost like the minimum effective dose type approach of, I want to make this connection, give you a next step and tell you enough that you're comfortable taking that next step. And anything else that happens through the down the track is great, but it's outside of this document. This document's job of work is to make that connection, build some resonance, some reciprocity, give the ideas of what you want them to do and how you can help them next and then allow them to take that step and take conversation elsewhere. And the other point that stood out because I don't think I've heard it before. I mean you said that there's no new ideas under the sun and all of this is a distillation of your experience over the last 20 years of using this. But I think that's where the real power comes in, because, particularly these days, we're not no one's short of information. We can spend five minutes googling things and find all the information that we want, but bringing it together into a useful format, giving clear instructions of how it should work or how it could work, that's the real difference maker.
\n\nSo the one that stands out from what you were saying was the quote, and that's something that I've never thought about including in bios or kind of like the thinking about it from a LinkedIn perspective. But people are very sound-biting. I mean, I don't know how much of a. I don't know whether that was always the case and people were always like that. There just wasn't the opportunity to see it so much. But certainly these days, having a sound-bite and a hook that allows people to remember you even if they're not ready to do business today, that makes it much more likely that they'll remember who you are and give some context to it when something jogs their memory six months down the track. So I think, bringing those things together in the way, not only is it efficient and effective, but there's also some great pointers in there which I'm not sure that everyone would have come across before.
\n\nKevin: Maybe. So you know, I think listening to what you just said, if I encapsulated the experience that a professional biography creates, that's done the right way, might be something to the extent of what a mentor told me a long time ago when I, after I graduated college and got into the sales business, and he said Kevin, people will probably never remember much of what you say, but they will always remember exactly how they felt when they were with you.
\n\nStuart: Right and it's really an experience.
\n\nKevin: So you know, when we add a quote you know like, to my biography, my quote is from Napoleon Hill. It is literally true that you can succeed best and quickest by helping others to succeed. If you knew nothing else about me but my name, my title and my picture and you read that quote, you're going to think all kinds of things, but a lot of them aren't going to be, are going to be leaning towards the fact that I'm here to help you as opposed to help myself. This is more about you, it is about me, right, and that's why I quote.
\n\nAnd I got to tell you that one of the most fun things about helping people build their professional biographies I've never seen too remotely alike from quotes to serve propositions to their background stories. When I learned about what motivated someone to get into the business that they're in, how they got there, when there's a true emphasis behind it of why they're doing what they're doing, it's pretty fascinating. I can spend an hour with someone just talking about their business, listening and taking notes and then creating the documents. The hardest part, the fun part, is listening.
\n\nStuart: Right and that breadth of it they're making a connection with other people, isn't it? We have the same here. Having done over a thousand books now, it's surprising that even people who are in the similar businesses have completely different approaches to things. And even if they have similar approaches to things, their experience of those approaches are completely different and their take on the business or what they bring to the table, their personal background, all of those things come through and mean that the audience that you're trying to attract even if it's the strategic coach abundance idea that there aren't really competitors out there because there's more than enough business for everyone in the space and it's your unique approach that separates you and makes you resonate with Person A and someone else will resonate with Person B. So I think being able to distill all of that into this professional biography, encapsulate it into something that's easy to deliver, easy to give someone the next step such a fantastic way of bringing all those elements together at once as we said last, time goes fast in the podcast here. One thing I wanted to quickly circle back on was this idea of the second book coming from the broader ideas that were in the first. So quite often people will have a will, get feedback from people and identify another opportunity to kind of niche down into a specific way of attracting a group of people, compelling them to take the next step, and then other times it'll be external sources, that kind of highlight that there's an idea or an opportunity. So if people, or rather as people, will listen to this, we're probably in two camps. There's people who have written books already and might be on the fence. Actually, I wonder if it's.
\n\nI just realised I was going to make a comment that there was someone that we did one of the early podcasts with who had a similar experience. Their book pivoted into a whole different business and, thinking about it, their name was Kevin as well. That was Kevin Craig. I'm guessing that you don't have to be called Kevin to have this epiphany, but if someone sat there, they've maybe written something, either a book, or they've got some material out there and they're thinking that there might be something in this, there might be something they can drill down into. What's the line between, yes, this is an idea that's worth going into a little bit more and potentially writing a second book about, or a book about versus? Oh, this is just something that people are generally talking about. Was there anything that was a real hot trigger that said, okay, there's definitely enough time and attention or interest out there. That means that this is worth doubling down on.
\n\nKevin: Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is a premise might. So there's two parts of this. The first part is, you know, in whatever business you're in, eventually you've got to retool a message and come out with your next message. I mean, if you've written a book or you have a strategy, a sales strategy that you're utilizing, I mean, when you're using that strategy and it's working, that's the time to get to the next strategy and begin building it already. It's like Western civilization and the waves of what you've got to be doing next. So I'm always thinking of the next thing I want to do. And so, because I know that I'm going to have to write another book eventually and I've got a couple that I'm thinking of, I always have that mindset of what's going to happen in the future, thinking out six, nine, 12 months out of what I'm going to need to do. And I think, if you're paying attention and you're in our business which is, you know, as opposed to writing, you know novels or you know a series of books about a certain character fiction and in our business we're actually thinking about how we can drill down and help people, you know, reach the vision of their ideal future. Stealing a quote from someone else, but that's what we're trying to do. It means that times and evolution changes, the economy changes, politics changes, wars change, things change, and so we've got to be thinking about and aware of that change and what, trying to get ahead to where the puck's going to be somewhere out into the future. Using a hockey analogy right, I've got to be thinking about where things are.
\n\nSo if you've written a book and you're getting a lot of feedback and sometimes it's the forest for the trees someone keeps tapping you on the shoulder and saying you know, I like this point, I like this point, I like this point then you've got to, you've got to realize it, wake up and think about it and you know. What you guys taught me to do, and the way we developed these books, is begin to just write down an outline of what that point is. When you write down the outline, I think you'll get an epiphany or an awareness of there's enough there or there's not. But if you're getting a lot of attention, a lot of feedback, positive feedback and just writing down the outline of what that concept is should give you a pretty good idea if you can come up with a, something that is going to be important to others and that they'll want to utilize. I hope that answers your question.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, definitely, and I think I couldn't agree more on the outline elements to it. It's so much the I don't know if it's the history of how we're taught to write as kids in school, the it becomes such a process and the words themselves are so much of the things that are marked and scored, kind of flashbacks to red lines and spelling corrections through everything. But it is easy to get hung up on the actual creation of the words themselves on the written page, which really is the last part of the process. Outline the design, the strategy, the purpose those elements are the main things and that's a brainstorming exercise of taking 30 minutes and a blank piece of paper just outline. However, you prefer to outline those elements that take people from the thing that they're interested to the next step, and I couldn't agree more.
\n\nIf you get that feedback from people where they're talking about particular elements and you can put that into an outline that makes sense and that's the answer straight away, the work's almost done. At that point it's just kind of filling in. The filling in. I want to make sure that people can get access to you and Borkand and find out more about what you're doing, kind of follow along with the journey. Where's the best place for people to go to check out more?
\n\nKevin: Well, my email is kevin@catalyst4growth.org. That's my email. Or you can go to our website, which is catalyst4growth.org, and when you get there you'll see when you get to the resources page, that we actually have a document that you can use to fill in those seven elements of your ideal client profile. It's a free tool for you to be able to use. If you get the book which you can find on Amazon or Kindle and it's called get more referrals in less time. Or just type my name in Amazon, type in Kevin Berwald. It's at the bottom of the screen, I think, where my picture is just type that in and you'll see the books pop up. That's probably one of the easiest ways to get it Read through the elements it's 80 pages.
\n\nDo yourself a favor. You will not regret doing this, even if you just write these elements down, so that you can now convey them to your clients verbally, where you couldn't before, or give it to the people who are developing your marketing programs, because we spend thousands of dollars on people to help us with marketing programs and they never understand what those key seven elements are and why we would choose them. And shouldn't that really be the foundation of what they do. So do yourself a favor, it's a gift, it's on my website. There's a presentation as examples of other biographies. And then, if you want to take it further and you want me to dust it off, you know, for 500 bucks and a few hours of work and using a quality printer, you can get a document and hard copy or a digital copy that will return any expense or time, possibly thousands of times. It's just so important to do and I'd be more than happy to help you out, or some of my team to help you out, to create yours as well.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, I'll be sure to put all of those links in the show notes. So, as people are watching along or listening on a podcast player or on the website, we'll make sure that the show notes are linked to those within the show notes and kind of shortcut that for people. One quick point you made there was not only is this an exercise that's worth doing in its own right to create the document, but it's also super useful across all sorts of other things you mentioned the marketing team and even the sales teams to understand your approach, what you do. This is a piece of work that will return benefits across multiple different use cases, not only the actual job of working, doing it in the first place, but in all of those other examples.
\n\nKevin: Yeah, I guarantee it. And you know the best way to get referrals is to talk about referrals. So if you take a book like this and you use your own professional biography and someone asked you how you created it and you start talking about referrals, I'm just telling you you're just going to get more referrals from talking about referrals or sharing this book and how to create a biography with some of your best clients who are in the sales business, realtors, insurance, finance. Everything is sold. I'm just telling you sharing the book, giving it to other people, is so valuable. The law of reciprocation is so strong. When you're really in it to help someone out, they're going to reciprocate and it's just a blast. It's a change of mindset of how to grow your business.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, this has been fantastic. I really enjoyed last time we spoke. We got a lot of great feedback from it and I'm sure this episode will be the same. We'll definitely make sure to put notes and links in the show notes so, as you're listening along, click through. And it would also be interesting on this one to send feedback to you if people have gone through the exercise. I'm sure I'd be interested to hear that. So make sure your email you mentioned before. I'll put that in the notes as well. So, as people are doing their biographies, definitely feed that back to Kevin as well, and maybe we can do a roundup show in a few months time and see what kind of feedback we've got and give people some pointers to take it to the next level.
\n\nKevin: That's great. We're starting another podcast ourselves next month and one of the things we'll be doing is bringing on people who are having success and they'll be on our podcast. Maybe I can reciprocate with you. You could be on one of my podcasts.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, fantastic, that'd be perfect. I'll make sure that I'm looking at the camera in the right place for yours.
\n\nYeah that'd be fantastic. That'd be really interesting. And actually I think I said it last time we were talking that I need to go through and dust off mine and get it updated. This is reminding me again it's something I really need to do more urgently. So, for that show, maybe we can go through mine and I'll use their book as the tool to dust it off, and that can be a great example for people of someone getting around to do it, which I'm sure is a barrier for a lot of people. And this is the great catalyst for kind of no excuses. Now, there's not. You don't have to think about what to do, just follow the steps. So, yeah, that'd be fantastic. We can use that as an example. Awesome, perfect.
\n\nOkay, time goes fast, as always, I've come. Thanks so much. We'll definitely cycle back in a couple months and get some feedback and do an update. Everyone who's listening watching along, as I say, check out the show at the top of links directly to Kevin's email, the website and the Amazon links and then let us know either feedback directly to Kevin or to us here at Stuart at 90 minute books and be really interested to see what people are doing and, of course, if this is sparked your idea of getting your book out there. Then just reach out to us at like. I say, my email address is Stuart and uscom and we'll be happy to help get that source. So thanks again, kevin. Everyone, thanks for watching and then we'll catch you in the next one.
\n\nKevin: Great. Have a profitable day everyone.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kevin Berwald, chartered financial planner and CMO of Catalyst4Growth, a sales team development organization, about his latest book _Get More Great Referrals in Less Time_, a book born from the feedback he received from an earlier book he created.\r\n\r\nThis first book contained 20 big ideas that sales professionals can use to acquire more clients. One was the suggestion to create a professional biography as an introduction tool. It was an idea that generated a lot of interest and new clients. Feedback and success that led to Kevin creating a book specifically on this subject.\r\n\r\nIt's a great example of a 'LEAN' approach to using a book as a conversation starter. You can never be sure which ideas will resonate with potential clients, but when you identify a hot topic - Double down and generate all the leads you need.\r\n\r\nWe had a great conversation about this and about the idea itself, creating a professional biography you can share with people to help them understand and remember the referral opportunities you're looking for. We discuss the seven essential elements of a successful biography and advise on deepening each element's impact. Kevin also highlights the power of personal details in building trust and connections. \r\n\r\nThere are a lot of great takeaways here, both when thinking about using a book to build your business and creating a professional bio to easily share what you do.","date_published":"2023-10-29T08:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/c6a46a53-22d1-4950-9778-8762159c96c9.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28324474,"duration_in_seconds":2350}]},{"id":"126b6651-fc1a-45ef-a98c-2f42949ff100","title":"Ep150: Owning a Category with Eric Thompson","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/150","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with real estate coach Eric Thompson, a Real Estate coach based in Colorado and author of Sell More Houses and Have Happy Clients. A book that introduces people to his 'Non-Pushy Selling System'.\n\nWith over 30 years of real estate experience, many of those coaching other agents, Eric has some great insights into the challenges they have, the conversations going on in their minds, and the ideas he can share to help get agents to the point of wanting to know more about his tools.\n\nEric's system, emphasising traits and perspectives agents already have rather than telling them they have to become someone else, is universally applicable, and his book is the perfect tool to introduce this idea, break the typical 'hard-grind' advice, and give people clear next steps toward working with him.\n\nIt's a great example of finding a compelling hook and something you can replicate for your business.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n \n\nEric Thompson, a seasoned real estate coach, discusses the benefits of technology for real estate agents and how it can help bridge the gap between technology and personal connection. \nHe emphasizes the importance of trademarks and offers fresh perspectives on the industry's big personalities. \nWe dive into content creation, marketing, and the importance of repetition and how constraints can be beneficial. \nWe explore how to give people the right tools to help them understand where they are in the journey of resolving their problem. \nEric shares his experience of being in the real estate coaching business for over 10 years and how books have become an effective way to capture leads and convert them over time. \nHe tlaks about importance of overcoming the fear of being overly assertive and salesy in real estate selling is highlighted. \nEric introduces his unique “Non-Pushy Selling System” as a solution to conquer the fear of being overly assertive and salesy. \nThe influence of books as marketing tools and Eric's journey using them for lead capture is discussed. \nEric talks about the power of writing and publishing books and how it can instantly boost credibility. \n\n\n\nLINKS\nEric Thompson- LinkedIn\nThe Leading Edge Academy\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/150\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n\nStuart:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got another great episode. It's talking with Eric Thompson. Eric, how are you doing, buddy? \n\nEric:Hey doing great. Thanks so much, stuart, for having me on. I appreciate it. \n\nStuart:No problem at all. This is going to be a good episode. I'm excited because I've seen the process of the book coming through so far, so I know a little bit of the background, but we haven't had a chance to talk, so why don't you do an introduction for everyone listening and for me outside of the context of the book? \n\nEric: Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate it. So I'm a real estate coach. This is my 30th year in real estate. It started pretty much fresh out of college back in the day. I'm a Colorado native, live in Colorado with my amazing family, my wife and two kids. And, yeah, different things I've done in real estate. I've been a real estate agent, been in management, been in leadership, actually owned a real estate brokerage, but all along what I've loved to do is coach agents to help them be successful, have more happy clients, have a more fulfilling career. That's what I focus on and, yeah, and so that's what the book is really about. \n\nStuart:I was in Breckenridge a few weeks ago and had first-hand experience for the first time of the Colorado effect of everyone, no matter whether they're kind of 26 or 96 or looks like they're 30. You kind of keep on that tradition going of their outdoor life as serving people well, people who use the agency work with in the past and the clients they work with. Is that mainly centered around Colorado? Is that across the country? \n\nEric: Across the country and now I'm lucky enough to have clients and people subscribing to my membership program. From now I can say I'm international. I have clients in Canada, but yeah, I've been able to spread what I do from coast to coast. You know, every time zone in the continental US and now Canada. And so, yeah, it's really it's a fun part of what I do and really such a benefit of technology right that I'm able to reach out and help and interact with and connect with people all over the place. So that's been really fun. \n\nStuart:It's such a difference, isn't it? Even the last couple of years I mean the real estate we've worked with all the way on the bleeding edge of technology, but the advancement in the last three years, kind of pandemic driven remote working, it really has accelerated the conversation and I think it's created such an opportunity both for you as a other coach of remote agents, but also the agents themselves when they're trying to deal with an increasingly younger group of buying and selling clients. Just that being forced to kind of adopt even a low level of technology just is such an amplifier. Do you see that in the clients that you're working with kind of their adoption of technology, as they don't see it as like a big barrier anymore? It's just another thing to deal with. \n\nEric: Yes, absolutely, it's one of the benefits of COVID. Not that we would have wished COVID on that, but Zoom is very normal now. So it's one of the best things that ever happened to the coaching industry and that Zoom is normal, and it's one of the best things that's ever happened to real estate agents and that you're talking to and working with a client who's relocating from another part of the country or another part of the world to your location. It's such a better way to build a relationship with someone and get to know them when you can see them too. So, yeah, absolutely, it's been an amazing benefit. \n\nStuart:I think maybe for the well anyone in business really, but realtors particularly, because there is that kind of last mile element of at some point it does get very personal but to try and bridge the technology into it so that it's as fast and efficient and effective as possible, because at the end of the day people are used to signing up and clicking one click on their phone to have things completed and not necessarily the reams and reams of paperwork that traditionally go along with real estate, but keeping that right balance of still the personal connection but being facilitated by the technology. It bridges the best of both worlds and I think for people who adopt that and rather than a resistance to it just opens up more opportunities. \n\nEric: Absolutely. And related to that, one of the best features of Zoom or things like Zoom is screen share. So when you're coaching, when you have a conversation piece on the screen, have their business plan, have their goal a tool I use in coaching is a scorecard. When you can have that on the screen to be able to talk about that. And then when an agent is talking to a client, to have something like the seller process or the buyer process or something about the market you know market statistics, graphs to be able to share that on the screen. One of my favorite expressions is showing is better than telling, and so when you can use the visuals along with the conversation, it's a really effective way to use Zoom or things like Zoom. \n\nStuart:I think almost as well it's for their agents. It's almost more of a captive audience. Rather than going and doing a presentation in someone's home where they might be distracted by other things going on or you kind of feel the pressure of having to flick through the material pretty quick and not necessarily dwell on something, but in a Zoom environment you're always going into it with a estimate of how much time you've got, because someone books an appointment at four way period of time and knowing that you can take the time to highlight this particular piece, it's almost in some ways more effective than being in someone's home where I think there is somewhat of a pressure to flip three things and get to the end. \n\nEric: Yes, yeah, completely agree, and you can control what they're looking at and you can keep them from flipping ahead. So yeah, that's an interesting one. \n\nStuart:You feel a little bit rude of turning the page back on someone and say no, not yet, not yet yes. \n\nThe clients that you work with in the coaching business. It's funny, I'm sure you hear it all the time but the kind of ah, but my market's different type excuse from people who are kind of resistant or reluctant to get started Bridging out into wider than Colorado and then wider than the US. Is there any elements of kind of bringing people on board and up speed and enthusiastically getting them to the point of saying yes, this is right for me. Has that developed as the footprints developed wider over the years? \n\nEric: Yeah, you know, every market has its own nuances, of course, and I do a lot of work actually in resort markets. \n\nResort markets have their own nuances, but what's consistent I found and this actually relates to the book that I found is a common obstacle, a common challenge for the real estate agent, Like the thing that I've found to be most effective to help them with and fix is a fear of being pushy. \n\nSo, regardless of what market they're in a primary market, resort market, a big city, a small town it's what's consistent, what's always the same is that the realtor has some aversion, some fear of being pushing and salesy and corny and used car sales person. You know they don't want to be that way and the reason why they don't want to be that way is because they're a nice person, right, they're a nice, normal person with a really great personality, they have really great relationships, they have a great reputation and they don't want to mess any of that up, right? They don't want to change relationship they have with their friends, they don't want to negatively impact their reputation. So what I figured out is that's really the thing that I can help with and that's commonly the place I start with people and have. Like my whole program is really developed first around that. Let's first overcome that, then get you on your way to having more clients to help. \n\nStuart:It's interesting, isn't it? A lot of people are interested in the tactics or specific things, but quite often it's an underlying block or something that's preventing them from even if you gave all the tactics and techniques, it's still an underlying psychological or perspective issues. The real holds back. \n\nEric: Yes, yeah, yeah, always that translates into the book. \n\nStuart:So the book is happy clients. Without being pushy, I've got the. \n\nEric: I just realized it's on the screen the non-pushy selling system. \n\nStuart:Thank you the non-pushy selling system which in and of itself. We talk about titles a lot but that knowing the audience that it's going to that title is very much does what it says on the tin. It kind of overcomes some objections just in the title itself the name of the program. The approaches he said developed a little bit, but the name of the program and then the name of the book was that something that you had very clearly in mind from the start or did that develop through the process? \n\nEric: Well, credit to the help that I'm getting, but my mindset going in is that I wanted to call the book non-pushy selling, and the coaching I got was you know what this is really? A system that you're laying out in the book, and a system is more attractive to someone than just non-pushy selling, because people, what system implies is that the system is going to do a lot of the work for you, right, and the system is going to work and the system is going to generate the friendly referrals that the realtor wants. So that was really good coaching in it. So that you know, the title starts with some more houses have more happy clients the non-pushy selling system. So you know, it's really like the subtitle is in the lead here the non-pushy selling system. \n\nAnd I, because of my experience in first noticing that objection and challenge in realtors and then figuring out how to help them with that, I really wanted to be known as the non-pushy selling guy, like the guy that helps people with that exact challenge and the person who can unlock that for the realtor. And so then where my mind went was well, I need a book, right, I need a book that says that. And so again, my thought was non-pushy selling would be the title, but the coaching I got was you know what? Let's make it the non-pushy selling system. \n\nStuart:It's such a great insight because the whole it's a nuanced difference but it does communicate the benefit and the outcome and the solution within that title element. So not that it's just describing a problem but, as you identified, there's, there's elements in here that will get you the results that you want. So this idea of communicating the promise of the outcome in the title itself or the title and the sub-combination, obviously, but that really makes quite a difference. And then it leads into the whole kind of name it and claim it and the strategic coaches, registering trademarks type approach of really dialing in and claiming this space as your own. There's lots of stales, courses or sales coaches out there, but this particular element, if this resonates with you, then you're the guy to go to. \n\nEric: Exactly. \n\nStuart:The feedback in the dialing in of the, the, this feeling that people have got of not wanting to be pushy. Was that relatively obvious from the start, as soon as you started dealing with people, or was that in itself something that developed over time? For me, it developed over time. \n\nEric: Yeah, it was, and I don't remember the exact time it really hit me and it was probably just a slower realization. I don't know if it was like one one big moment, but I think it was just over time. Where, you know, I've had the great fortune to work with a lot of different real estate agents in a lot of different places, a lot of different markets, and this theme kept coming up and it kept coming up with brand new agents, with veterans, with high producers, with people who are trying to get to a high level, like in different markets, different price points, again, resorts, primary. It didn't matter that, that that was the common thing. And people said you know what I got into real estate? Because I love helping people, I love working with people. Real estate is intriguing to me. It's a big transaction in someone's life. I want to help with that. But what they ran into was this super common block of I don't want to be pushy and salesy, I just don't want to be that person, Is it? \n\nStuart:always something that someone can overcome. It's always a. It's always something that you can reposition it and reframe it so people see it a different way. It's never something that's such a fundamental problem that they can't get over it. Maybe easy for some than others, but is it something that's always overcome? \n\nEric: Yes, what I'm convinced of is that my solution works for everyone. Now, whether they choose to use it or not is different, but it where I really work to make sure things that I coach and teach can work for any personality, because most people are normal. You know I have great, you know just great down to earth personalities and what happens in our industry it's interesting is that a lot of times the big personalities are showcased and they have a spotlight on them. You know the people that are on TV, the millionaire real estate agent and on. You know those people are great people but they're not normal and they're not anyone that someone could copy and emulate and try to be like. \n\nYou know most people can't be that. And so those people on TV, for example, the reason why they're having their success is because of their enormous personality, and good for them. But that's, it's super unique. And so there's the normal person, the normal personality, saying well, wait a minute, how, how can I be? I can't be that, how can I have that, those kind of results and that success? But I didn't without that personality. So, again, I really work to have coaching and training that that can work for everybody. \n\nStuart:It is interesting, isn't it? We talk a lot about the job of work or the product of the book. Isn't the book itself? We're not trying to sell copies of the book and that's our career. We're business owners. And the product, the outcome, is a conversation. And the same with the TV show. The product of the TV show is the TV show. They're kind of self-selecting for personalities and the social media problem a little bit. It's very self-fulfilling into that extreme end of the spectrum. But the reason that it has success and traction is because it is the extreme, not necessarily the underlying business. It's kind of the tail wagging the dog rather than the other way around. Which? \n\nis a thanks for most people, the people who you work with and the clients that come to you. How do they find you at the moment, or how do you find them at the moment Prior to any book conversation? What's been the path to them knowing about you and ultimately raising their hand? \n\nEric: Yeah, so, as I think about my list, it's been generated a lot through public speaking. I've had a great chance to be in front of a bunch of different groups, all realtors but different paths there. I've had some success with Facebook advertising. I've had success with lead ads and there are other books that I've written, some smaller pocket guide kind of books that I've had as a free download, and again I've had a lot of success through Facebook lead ads Doing that. Also webinars, doing free webinars that's been a big part of my lead generation success. So, yeah, those have been in the different ways. So probably mostly public speaking and Facebook. \n\nStuart:It's interesting, isn't it, that once you get a message, whether or not it resonates is then a separate thing, I guess. But once you get a message that is easy to tie content to, it's easy to record something. There's a webinar that can live around that kind of slightly bigger world. There's other guides, or other people do white papers. Once you've got that seed, once you know for something, it does make the whole content creation process a lot easier, because you're not going into it wondering every time what am I going to talk about? You know broadly what I'm going to talk about and then it's just the specifics for each occasion. Did you find that to be the case as well? As the message got honed in and dialed in, it became easier to create content. \n\nEric: Yes, absolutely Absolutely. And what's funny is that I think that can be countered. I think some people may think, well, once I have that topic, then I'm kind of done, and I've talked about that topic, now I have to jump to a whole new theme. But actually you don't, and I've had that feedback from clientele as well. One example coming to mind is I do some work for an incredible company in Lake Tahoe and do some consulting work with them and a series of training. \n\nAnd I asked the broker-johner you know, what should I tell? Is there some specific thing you'd like me to talk about? Is there something new that's on the mind of your realtor, some new challenge? And he just said, *Eric: *, just keep talking about what you've already been talking about, like they can't hear that enough. So, yeah, it's the repetition. That's where you get the real value right and where people really start to get it. And then, as people, as I got that feedback, I started to think about my own experience and the people that I've learned from, like Dean and like yeah, I've heard the same thing. Or Dan Sullivan, or on and on right, I've heard them say that before, but this time they said it in maybe a slightly new way, or I was now in the right place to hear it in a way that I needed to hear it. So there's nothing. I think sometimes us, as we as coaches, content creators, we get fearful of being repetitive, or we're kind of averse, or we worry about that, and no, I think that just stay with that theme. \n\nStuart:Yeah, I was just saying to someone yesterday that you're the only person who sees all of your content. Even your most engaged client or listener out is still only consuming a tenth of what you're putting out there. Even if they're listening to everything, it's in the background and they don't quite hear everything and they'll miss an email here or post there. So it's only you as the creator that sees everything, and the other people just see the very small pieces. And, as you say, it's not only that you might say in a slightly different way the tenth time you say it, it's that they're in a different place and here and ready to hear it, which that element of repetition and being out in front of people a lot at every opportunity is really the difference maker between just hoping that you happen to intersect with someone at the right point in time versus always presenting those opportunities to intersect whenever is the right point for them. \n\nEric: Yes. \n\nStuart:There's one of the scorecard the book blueprint scorecard, mindsets is this idea of beneficial constraints. So we talk there both in terms of time frame like putting a constraint on it in terms of actually getting it done, but also a constraint in terms of the breadth and the scope, because if you're trying to include everything, you'll never get around to it. It's much easier to create something that's on message. But also the other element of it is and again this came off in the conversation yesterday if you try and include everything just in the book but you kind of hoping that one tool does all of the work, which is unlikely the majority of people just skim and whether it's 70 pages or 700 pages doesn't really make a meaningful difference. Having that additional content in the email follow-up sequence or in social media that's referring to the book, using the book as the excuse to talk about it, all of that downstream stuff and the scope outside of the book much more effective and efficient than just trying to jam it all in those pages. \n\nEric: Absolutely absolutely. \n\nStuart:Yeah, let the book be the start and then have all the other pieces of content that queued up as follow-up Right because the point that you made you can say the exact same things in the 10 days of the email afterwards and hopefully by the 10th day it will resonate and someone will say, oh, this is what I need whereas I just might miss it in the first instance, this idea of scope constraint. \n\nthen, was there anything as you were creating the content and thinking what should and shouldn't be included? Was it easy to stay on message and on target and not run the risk of scope creep derailing the project a little bit? Was there anything that you initially thought you wanted to include but then eventually didn't include? \n\nEric:That wasn't a challenge for me. Only because I had taught this content live and I've taught it in a webinar. I had to benefit it, where I had already organized the content. My fear was that there wasn't enough, and that's probably a common thing with the authors that you come across. Well, this turned into enough pages and why even be able to talk for 90 minutes? And, oh my gosh, it was so smooth. \n\nThe process was so seamless, it was so easy and it easily took up 90 minutes with no problem. I loved the process in that you said okay, we have nine chapters and I do some initial writing, and then you create the outline. We have nine chapters and you're just going to talk for 10 minutes on each chapter. I was like, oh my gosh, that makes much sense, that's so easy, I can do that. I can talk about this for 10 minutes, no problem Prompting with questions, and so yeah, it's funny because so many people get caught up. \n\nStuart:and I guess it's only funny because we've been doing this for 10, 11 years now and you get so used to your own process you forget that other people things can seem like magic tricks, like what you would take as the base level, so I always forget that. People typically are coming in thinking about the end product and thinking about writing in like a school exercise or college exercise in the traditional way of doing it, which is what traditional publishing is. Here's some money up front, lock yourself in the cabin for six months and I expect to see something finished when we let you out. But the whole premise around the outline, that setup stage before you even think about recording that outline stage, is by far the most valuable because it gives it a structure and a framework and a constraints and a roadmap to each individual bite size piece. That makes the bringing together all the elements so much easier. \n\nEric: Yes, it was so simple and so brilliant all at the same time. And I didn't understand the 10 minutes per chapter thing until I was told that I was sent the outline. Here you go. Here's based on the initial writing that you sent us. Here's the outline nine chapters. I was like oh great. And then for the interview, she said okay, you're going to talk for 10 minutes for each chapter. And I was like genius, Now I have a roadmap and now that's just an easy way to stay on track. I'm all about frameworks, I'm all about outlines, making things easy, I'm all about plug and play. So the fact that you gave that to me, it just made me feel so comfortable and relaxed and it was easy to flow. \n\nStuart:That familiar piece that ties in with the scorecard as well, your scorecard for the process itself Giving people tools and techniques, things that they can either well both really conceptualize the idea, but then there's an exercise or a framework or a set of guidelines that they can see themselves progressing or act as reminders that, oh, I'm recognizing this pattern of behavior. Therefore, I know I need to do this piece. When people the book itself obviously is this introduction to the conversation it's more about setting the scene for what people can do and giving them some pointers, rather than the complete solution Only, if nothing else, because the complete solution is bigger than just a book. But this idea of bridging between ideas and tools and tactics, Is that something that's developed over the lifecycle of the program? And what's the feedback that you get from people who are using the system? Do they appreciate those tools as much as the ideas, or is it more the idea that resonates and then they're kind of figuring out for themselves? \n\nEric: They appreciate understanding the concept and then being given this, given the solution. This is what we need to overcome and this is how this is exactly how you're going to do it. So I think sometimes people can get frustrated with only hearing theory, like, yeah, that's interesting, but what do I do with that? So I've learned the hard way not to do that, because I love to teach theory, but I figured out to be good also at giving the specific tactic. And then also I find that if it's only tactic and people don't understand how it fits conceptually or the reasoning behind it, there's less likely to implement it. So I found that you have to do both. So here's how I do it. \n\nHere's this thing down, pushy, selling, common objection. This is the problem that it's causing for you. It's keeping you from doing these certain things. And people say, yes, that makes sense, I get it, that's true. And then here's how you solve it. So I have a thing in the book called the architecture of help. So this is how you frame up a conversation with someone that can potentially lead to you helping them with their real estate, and it's just, you know, simple, four-part framework. And so that's how I think about it and that's kind of what I've learned through my coaching and teaching. \n\nStuart:And particularly I mean specifically for your example, I think for anyone out there being able to give people frameworks or acronyms or things that they can easily like, understanding where they are in the journey. \n\nSo they have come across you in some way, either relatively high level in a Facebook account or relatively more detailed. They might have been on a list for a period of time. Now they get into the stage where they want to know more because the problem resonates with them individually. So they're opting in for a copy of the book because they want to start the conversation to resolve this problem, but understanding exactly where they are in the process and giving them enough tools that it makes it feel worthwhile, but either not baiting, switching into something else or being too superficial and not really giving valuable information. But it's the perfect blend frameworks and acronyms and small steps that they can take. It's the perfect blend of positioning it at the right level that this isn't. There is a course, there is coaching, there is more stuff further down the track, but at this point, at this time in this funnel, this is the right information to share with them. It really helps position the right amount of value at the right time that they're developing the relationship and moving forward towards doing something. \n\nEric: Yes, absolutely. Something I learned from from Frank Kern, and I know Dean would 100% align with. This is the best way to demonstrate to someone that you can help them is to help them. And when I learned that I'm like, oh my gosh, that is so good and I'm just going to completely run with that. And I know I mean Dean's whole business, 90-minute books everything is built on that same philosophy and it so works. So, yeah, I found it's really valuable to give someone a quick win, like you got to get them, just if you can give them a quick win. And then you now they have momentum and progress and that you know feels good as the coach, as the trainer, and then you've increased the odds that they want to work with you more right. \n\nStuart:Exactly, and that's actually a great bridge into the kind of the back cover and the call to action in the book. So the next steps that people can take after they've kind of read and consumed and they kind of have that certainty that they're in the right on the right page and going the right direction, bridging people from the content of the book to a next step you probably get an advantage, maybe to some people listening, because you've got quite an established set of attributes, that or assets there already the webinars and their online material and some other supporting material. But once that transition, like what's the first steps that you want them to take after they've read it? \n\nEric: Well, I this is another chance to give credit to the process and the coaching that I got, because my thinking going in was okay, I want someone to get the book and then I want them to sign up for one of the four or five day challenges or free master classes that I do, and because that's I found recently, that's that is by far the most effective way for me to market what I do. \n\nBut the coaching I got was hey, let's create another little step that in between, just to make it really super easy, really non-threatening for the person they're going to get to know you even more. And so the coaching I got was to create just a checklist, just a one pager, on non-pushy conversation starters, and I was like that's genius, that's so good, so that that that'll be. People will hear about my challenges and the master classes in the book. But, like, the most prominent next step called action will be hey, go to this website to download your just a one pager on non-pushy conversation starters, and then it will be market marketing by master classes and challenges. \n\nStuart:Right, and that's so. The setup that we have for the back covers this idea of we're trying to meet, meet three groups of people where they are. The tag kickers want a nicer term, needs to think of a nicer term. But those people who are interested, but not interested enough to really raise the hand, so, like that, just go here for more content. Then there's the people who are kind of ready, know they're in the right place but aren't quite ready to jump on board with any real commitment yet. And then the people who are ready, those three groups. \n\nIt is such a great job of meeting all the readers where they are, whether they're coming to you from the first time, so they really need a little bit more time to build up that level of credibility or the no-liking trust in order to take a step. \n\nThe opportunity at this middle stage to still have an opt-in, to still have people sign up for something. But it seemed very non-committal and very non-threatening. So that's the perfect mix for people who get a copy of the book who haven't downloaded it, so maybe they'd buy it from Amazon or they're giving it from someone else. You don't know who those people are yet, so that's a very easy way to get them on the list. And then, of course, the people who are ready to go in a more meaningful way to go now. I think for most business owners, that idea those three groups of people that's applicable to everyone in every scenario 99.9% of the people who have a copy of the book in the handle on their screen they're going to fall into one of those three camps. And it's such an easy way of pacing out the conversation so that you're not trying to immediately go for the sell. Well, it's the non-pushy way of kind of moving people down the track. \n\nEric: Exactly, you know. \n\nStuart:Yeah, it's such a great option. And then that ties nicely into the kind of after the book, beyond the book, element of your setup, because then you can introduce them to the whole rest of the world. They're regular emails to keep that edutainment going a little bit and build that relationship more, always presenting people the opportunity to make the next step. You've already got webinar contents and video contents and documented type content. So just the fact that the book very easily slots into the funnel, either at the front end as the lead magnet to begin with, or even later on the process. Someone attends the webinar. They didn't convert immediately, so follow up with them with a copy of the book and say, hey, great, see, on the webinar. We talked a lot about this particular element. We cover that more detail in chapter three here. So I wanted to get you a copy of the book whenever you're ready. Do this piece. It just really sits. The book has an asset, sits so nicely into the funnels that you've got. \n\nEric: Yeah, stuart, that's good coaching, I'm gonna make note of that. I love it as a follow-up. I haven't thought about it as a follow-up piece, but that makes complete sense. \n\nStuart:Right and it's such a it's so difficult. Jumping back to the point you were saying before that most people are who you're having conversation with. For me and for you, they're at the early stage of the conversation and there's a lot more high level stuff or more detailed stuff, more nuanced stuff that you could go into. But the reality is we're really we need to get past this hurdle first, so we spend so much of our time talking about this stuff. But the fact that the book now exists and you've been a client for a period of time and you're already kind of three or four steps down the track, so now we can have these conversations about the more nuanced piece. But you can imagine a it's like a two, three-dimensional chess game of here's all of the assets that you've got and here's some of the big battleship type assets and here's some of the smaller assets. But these big ones, they can really be used in multiple different contexts in different pieces of the funnel and because it's the same subject, they're really just building on each other to. \n\nThe webinar reinforces a book. The book reinforces the webinar. The emails can talk about either of them and just drop into bits of the conversation. The social media posts can use it as a a thing in the background of the image. So you kind of got it there, kind of subtly reminding people that it exists. \n\nNow that you've created it, now the fun starts, because you get to plug it into all of these different places yes, yes, excited, yeah yeah, it's easy to get excited about it, and rightly so, I think, because it is something the whole purpose of the company that we started was to kind of democratize. \n\nThis process of everyone thinks about a traditional book or a bestseller and all of this kind of million-dollar listing nonsense ended the spectrum which for most people is. \n\nI mean, if any of that happened, then great, it's not a bad thing, but it's an irrelevant distraction to the real job of work of getting it out there and having it as the opportunity to use it when you go speaking at an event to be able to give a copy of the book. It's just an increase if other organizations or the businesses where they might do a lot of face-to-face selling the fact that you can walk in, or even the agents, I mean you can imagine a complete tangent now but you can imagine writing you writing for your agency, you coach book that allows them to demonstrate their expertise or their approach to this is my approach to non-pushy sales, non-pushy real estate, because everyone on both sides of transaction doesn't almost as reluctant to open the door because they don't want to be hit in the face by someone being pushy, but I'm going to sell your house through a non-pushy approach and as part of the package that we're doing, the listing presentation. \n\nHere's the non-pushing book the fact that exists and the fact that it exists in physical format and the fact that someone's giving it to someone else, the fact that it's sharing more value. There's just so many opportunities absolutely it's a detached from whether it's a best seller, whether it's this big versus this big or all of the traditional elements that just don't move the needle as much as some other stuff right, exactly, I, yeah, I just wanted to be known as the non-pushy selling guy. \n\nEric: I just I wanted, and so I knew the way to do that was to have a book, and I was lucky in that. I've I had experience having a book before and I so I know what it's like when you hand someone a book. Here's a book that I wrote and it just they're blown away. People are blown away in a very good way. They always say you wrote this. Oh, my god, you wrote this book. Yeah, I wrote that book, and so if anyone listening I need some inspiration to to do this, you know, write the book, like just do it, because there's nothing like handing someone or emailing them a book and telling them that you wrote it. It blows their mind and their and your credibility just goes through through the roof. \n\nStuart:Yeah, it's funny, I like to say. We've been doing this for 10, 10 years now. 10, 11 years now. Time goes fast and almost from the start, all the way through, we've described the company is a real marketing company. We're not a publishing company. We just coincidentally stumbled on the fact that books are the most effective way to capture leads in the first place and then convert leads over time. But even from the start it there was still a feeling of the magic of this is going to wear off. This is a point in time where a book has an outsized credibility impact compared with the effort that we know it takes to create it, because there is effort but it's a relatively known quantity. But even 10 years later that effect. \n\nThere was a podcast that will probably be maybe five before this one podcast with Paul Ross. He said exactly the same thing. So he's a podiatrist, he's written a couple of books. The latest one was my damn toe hurts, but he was saying exactly the same. He'll have people come into the office, sometimes with the copy of the book and we'll quote back to him the things that he said, or they'll come into the office and not know that he's the actual doctor they'll be seeing and they'll say oh, I've read your book. You're the person that wrote the book, so that same experience that you've had is across the board and it's definitely something that is makes the whole project. It's the cream on the top of the project. If that didn't happen, it would still be worthwhile doing, but the fact that it does happen is kind of in a tangible boost. It's almost difficult to quantify, but it definitely puts a glow around the whole thing and yes it's quite magical. \n\nEric: Yeah, it is magical. Yeah, I learned from a gentleman named Adam Witte several years ago that if we all want to be an authority on a topic and the way to be an authority is to be an author, Like the root word of authority is author, and that's just really hit home for me. And again I've watched it happen. I wrote a book called the real estate agents guide to getting your act together, and so it's just a fun book to hand people and again they're just. They always say wait, you wrote this. Then you almost become like a celebrity. \n\nStuart:So, on the one hand, it's kind of it makes you kind of a couple of little things I did and then, on the other hand, you're thinking, yeah, I did, why is that so unbelievable? Right, this is why I love about doing these podcasts with people, because it really gets the real stories out and the we can say it to people. But it's not the same as hearing it first hand from people and, regardless of whether people work with us or do it by themselves or work with someone else, the opportunity that people have got to get this asset out there and the fact that it's so disproportionately benefit compared with the time and money and investment into doing it. It's one of the I truly believe it's one of the best things that you can do, because it's just got so much. There's so many opportunities to leverage it. \n\nEric: Yes, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, my pleasure. \n\nStuart:I want to make sure that people got opportunity to follow along with your journey a little bit more and get a copy of the book and find out more about what you do. So what's a great place for people to go to to follow the *Eric: * story and keep abreast of what's going on so they can? \n\nEric: get the book, and I'm expecting the book will be be ready on this website by the time. This is public, non pushy selling bookcom. By the way, I was really excited to get that URL. And then my website is inspire, perform, profit, calm. Inspire, perform, profit, calm. More about me, and then that's also where people can find out about the master classes and challenges that I do for free for realtors. So that's in that. \n\nStuart:Fantastic and there's a wealth of information over there, so definitely recommend people check that out. We'll make sure we put the links in the show notes as well, so if people are on the move and miss that, then just look for the link either in the podcast player or on the website where the episode is up will put links straight to those places. \n\nEric: Right. \n\nStuart: Eric, it's been fantastic. I know the books just about to come out, so this podcast is. I think we're maybe 10 days or so away from releasing this, so there's a deadline on getting the website up. It'll be great to check back in in six or seven months and then see how it's been going and just feedback with people what the what the responses been and what the lessons have been and maybe some of the marketing campaigns you've done with the book once it's been created. Check back in and see how that's gone. \n\nEric: I'd be happy to more than happy to Fantastic. \n\nStuart:Well, thanks again for your time. It's been a real pleasure. Everyone, as always, thanks for listening. Check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one. \n\nEric: Thanks so much. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with real estate coach Eric Thompson, a Real Estate coach based in Colorado and author of Sell More Houses and Have Happy Clients. A book that introduces people to his 'Non-Pushy Selling System'.
\n\nWith over 30 years of real estate experience, many of those coaching other agents, Eric has some great insights into the challenges they have, the conversations going on in their minds, and the ideas he can share to help get agents to the point of wanting to know more about his tools.
\n\nEric's system, emphasising traits and perspectives agents already have rather than telling them they have to become someone else, is universally applicable, and his book is the perfect tool to introduce this idea, break the typical 'hard-grind' advice, and give people clear next steps toward working with him.
\n\nIt's a great example of finding a compelling hook and something you can replicate for your business.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/150
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got another great episode. It's talking with Eric Thompson. Eric, how are you doing, buddy?
\n\nEric:Hey doing great. Thanks so much, stuart, for having me on. I appreciate it.
\n\nStuart:No problem at all. This is going to be a good episode. I'm excited because I've seen the process of the book coming through so far, so I know a little bit of the background, but we haven't had a chance to talk, so why don't you do an introduction for everyone listening and for me outside of the context of the book?
\n\nEric: Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate it. So I'm a real estate coach. This is my 30th year in real estate. It started pretty much fresh out of college back in the day. I'm a Colorado native, live in Colorado with my amazing family, my wife and two kids. And, yeah, different things I've done in real estate. I've been a real estate agent, been in management, been in leadership, actually owned a real estate brokerage, but all along what I've loved to do is coach agents to help them be successful, have more happy clients, have a more fulfilling career. That's what I focus on and, yeah, and so that's what the book is really about.
\n\nStuart:I was in Breckenridge a few weeks ago and had first-hand experience for the first time of the Colorado effect of everyone, no matter whether they're kind of 26 or 96 or looks like they're 30. You kind of keep on that tradition going of their outdoor life as serving people well, people who use the agency work with in the past and the clients they work with. Is that mainly centered around Colorado? Is that across the country?
\n\nEric: Across the country and now I'm lucky enough to have clients and people subscribing to my membership program. From now I can say I'm international. I have clients in Canada, but yeah, I've been able to spread what I do from coast to coast. You know, every time zone in the continental US and now Canada. And so, yeah, it's really it's a fun part of what I do and really such a benefit of technology right that I'm able to reach out and help and interact with and connect with people all over the place. So that's been really fun.
\n\nStuart:It's such a difference, isn't it? Even the last couple of years I mean the real estate we've worked with all the way on the bleeding edge of technology, but the advancement in the last three years, kind of pandemic driven remote working, it really has accelerated the conversation and I think it's created such an opportunity both for you as a other coach of remote agents, but also the agents themselves when they're trying to deal with an increasingly younger group of buying and selling clients. Just that being forced to kind of adopt even a low level of technology just is such an amplifier. Do you see that in the clients that you're working with kind of their adoption of technology, as they don't see it as like a big barrier anymore? It's just another thing to deal with.
\n\nEric: Yes, absolutely, it's one of the benefits of COVID. Not that we would have wished COVID on that, but Zoom is very normal now. So it's one of the best things that ever happened to the coaching industry and that Zoom is normal, and it's one of the best things that's ever happened to real estate agents and that you're talking to and working with a client who's relocating from another part of the country or another part of the world to your location. It's such a better way to build a relationship with someone and get to know them when you can see them too. So, yeah, absolutely, it's been an amazing benefit.
\n\nStuart:I think maybe for the well anyone in business really, but realtors particularly, because there is that kind of last mile element of at some point it does get very personal but to try and bridge the technology into it so that it's as fast and efficient and effective as possible, because at the end of the day people are used to signing up and clicking one click on their phone to have things completed and not necessarily the reams and reams of paperwork that traditionally go along with real estate, but keeping that right balance of still the personal connection but being facilitated by the technology. It bridges the best of both worlds and I think for people who adopt that and rather than a resistance to it just opens up more opportunities.
\n\nEric: Absolutely. And related to that, one of the best features of Zoom or things like Zoom is screen share. So when you're coaching, when you have a conversation piece on the screen, have their business plan, have their goal a tool I use in coaching is a scorecard. When you can have that on the screen to be able to talk about that. And then when an agent is talking to a client, to have something like the seller process or the buyer process or something about the market you know market statistics, graphs to be able to share that on the screen. One of my favorite expressions is showing is better than telling, and so when you can use the visuals along with the conversation, it's a really effective way to use Zoom or things like Zoom.
\n\nStuart:I think almost as well it's for their agents. It's almost more of a captive audience. Rather than going and doing a presentation in someone's home where they might be distracted by other things going on or you kind of feel the pressure of having to flick through the material pretty quick and not necessarily dwell on something, but in a Zoom environment you're always going into it with a estimate of how much time you've got, because someone books an appointment at four way period of time and knowing that you can take the time to highlight this particular piece, it's almost in some ways more effective than being in someone's home where I think there is somewhat of a pressure to flip three things and get to the end.
\n\nEric: Yes, yeah, completely agree, and you can control what they're looking at and you can keep them from flipping ahead. So yeah, that's an interesting one.
\n\nStuart:You feel a little bit rude of turning the page back on someone and say no, not yet, not yet yes.
\n\nThe clients that you work with in the coaching business. It's funny, I'm sure you hear it all the time but the kind of ah, but my market's different type excuse from people who are kind of resistant or reluctant to get started Bridging out into wider than Colorado and then wider than the US. Is there any elements of kind of bringing people on board and up speed and enthusiastically getting them to the point of saying yes, this is right for me. Has that developed as the footprints developed wider over the years?
\n\nEric: Yeah, you know, every market has its own nuances, of course, and I do a lot of work actually in resort markets.
\n\nResort markets have their own nuances, but what's consistent I found and this actually relates to the book that I found is a common obstacle, a common challenge for the real estate agent, Like the thing that I've found to be most effective to help them with and fix is a fear of being pushy.
\n\nSo, regardless of what market they're in a primary market, resort market, a big city, a small town it's what's consistent, what's always the same is that the realtor has some aversion, some fear of being pushing and salesy and corny and used car sales person. You know they don't want to be that way and the reason why they don't want to be that way is because they're a nice person, right, they're a nice, normal person with a really great personality, they have really great relationships, they have a great reputation and they don't want to mess any of that up, right? They don't want to change relationship they have with their friends, they don't want to negatively impact their reputation. So what I figured out is that's really the thing that I can help with and that's commonly the place I start with people and have. Like my whole program is really developed first around that. Let's first overcome that, then get you on your way to having more clients to help.
\n\nStuart:It's interesting, isn't it? A lot of people are interested in the tactics or specific things, but quite often it's an underlying block or something that's preventing them from even if you gave all the tactics and techniques, it's still an underlying psychological or perspective issues. The real holds back.
\n\nEric: Yes, yeah, yeah, always that translates into the book.
\n\nStuart:So the book is happy clients. Without being pushy, I've got the.
\n\nEric: I just realized it's on the screen the non-pushy selling system.
\n\nStuart:Thank you the non-pushy selling system which in and of itself. We talk about titles a lot but that knowing the audience that it's going to that title is very much does what it says on the tin. It kind of overcomes some objections just in the title itself the name of the program. The approaches he said developed a little bit, but the name of the program and then the name of the book was that something that you had very clearly in mind from the start or did that develop through the process?
\n\nEric: Well, credit to the help that I'm getting, but my mindset going in is that I wanted to call the book non-pushy selling, and the coaching I got was you know what this is really? A system that you're laying out in the book, and a system is more attractive to someone than just non-pushy selling, because people, what system implies is that the system is going to do a lot of the work for you, right, and the system is going to work and the system is going to generate the friendly referrals that the realtor wants. So that was really good coaching in it. So that you know, the title starts with some more houses have more happy clients the non-pushy selling system. So you know, it's really like the subtitle is in the lead here the non-pushy selling system.
\n\nAnd I, because of my experience in first noticing that objection and challenge in realtors and then figuring out how to help them with that, I really wanted to be known as the non-pushy selling guy, like the guy that helps people with that exact challenge and the person who can unlock that for the realtor. And so then where my mind went was well, I need a book, right, I need a book that says that. And so again, my thought was non-pushy selling would be the title, but the coaching I got was you know what? Let's make it the non-pushy selling system.
\n\nStuart:It's such a great insight because the whole it's a nuanced difference but it does communicate the benefit and the outcome and the solution within that title element. So not that it's just describing a problem but, as you identified, there's, there's elements in here that will get you the results that you want. So this idea of communicating the promise of the outcome in the title itself or the title and the sub-combination, obviously, but that really makes quite a difference. And then it leads into the whole kind of name it and claim it and the strategic coaches, registering trademarks type approach of really dialing in and claiming this space as your own. There's lots of stales, courses or sales coaches out there, but this particular element, if this resonates with you, then you're the guy to go to.
\n\nEric: Exactly.
\n\nStuart:The feedback in the dialing in of the, the, this feeling that people have got of not wanting to be pushy. Was that relatively obvious from the start, as soon as you started dealing with people, or was that in itself something that developed over time? For me, it developed over time.
\n\nEric: Yeah, it was, and I don't remember the exact time it really hit me and it was probably just a slower realization. I don't know if it was like one one big moment, but I think it was just over time. Where, you know, I've had the great fortune to work with a lot of different real estate agents in a lot of different places, a lot of different markets, and this theme kept coming up and it kept coming up with brand new agents, with veterans, with high producers, with people who are trying to get to a high level, like in different markets, different price points, again, resorts, primary. It didn't matter that, that that was the common thing. And people said you know what I got into real estate? Because I love helping people, I love working with people. Real estate is intriguing to me. It's a big transaction in someone's life. I want to help with that. But what they ran into was this super common block of I don't want to be pushy and salesy, I just don't want to be that person, Is it?
\n\nStuart:always something that someone can overcome. It's always a. It's always something that you can reposition it and reframe it so people see it a different way. It's never something that's such a fundamental problem that they can't get over it. Maybe easy for some than others, but is it something that's always overcome?
\n\nEric: Yes, what I'm convinced of is that my solution works for everyone. Now, whether they choose to use it or not is different, but it where I really work to make sure things that I coach and teach can work for any personality, because most people are normal. You know I have great, you know just great down to earth personalities and what happens in our industry it's interesting is that a lot of times the big personalities are showcased and they have a spotlight on them. You know the people that are on TV, the millionaire real estate agent and on. You know those people are great people but they're not normal and they're not anyone that someone could copy and emulate and try to be like.
\n\nYou know most people can't be that. And so those people on TV, for example, the reason why they're having their success is because of their enormous personality, and good for them. But that's, it's super unique. And so there's the normal person, the normal personality, saying well, wait a minute, how, how can I be? I can't be that, how can I have that, those kind of results and that success? But I didn't without that personality. So, again, I really work to have coaching and training that that can work for everybody.
\n\nStuart:It is interesting, isn't it? We talk a lot about the job of work or the product of the book. Isn't the book itself? We're not trying to sell copies of the book and that's our career. We're business owners. And the product, the outcome, is a conversation. And the same with the TV show. The product of the TV show is the TV show. They're kind of self-selecting for personalities and the social media problem a little bit. It's very self-fulfilling into that extreme end of the spectrum. But the reason that it has success and traction is because it is the extreme, not necessarily the underlying business. It's kind of the tail wagging the dog rather than the other way around. Which?
\n\nis a thanks for most people, the people who you work with and the clients that come to you. How do they find you at the moment, or how do you find them at the moment Prior to any book conversation? What's been the path to them knowing about you and ultimately raising their hand?
\n\nEric: Yeah, so, as I think about my list, it's been generated a lot through public speaking. I've had a great chance to be in front of a bunch of different groups, all realtors but different paths there. I've had some success with Facebook advertising. I've had success with lead ads and there are other books that I've written, some smaller pocket guide kind of books that I've had as a free download, and again I've had a lot of success through Facebook lead ads Doing that. Also webinars, doing free webinars that's been a big part of my lead generation success. So, yeah, those have been in the different ways. So probably mostly public speaking and Facebook.
\n\nStuart:It's interesting, isn't it, that once you get a message, whether or not it resonates is then a separate thing, I guess. But once you get a message that is easy to tie content to, it's easy to record something. There's a webinar that can live around that kind of slightly bigger world. There's other guides, or other people do white papers. Once you've got that seed, once you know for something, it does make the whole content creation process a lot easier, because you're not going into it wondering every time what am I going to talk about? You know broadly what I'm going to talk about and then it's just the specifics for each occasion. Did you find that to be the case as well? As the message got honed in and dialed in, it became easier to create content.
\n\nEric: Yes, absolutely Absolutely. And what's funny is that I think that can be countered. I think some people may think, well, once I have that topic, then I'm kind of done, and I've talked about that topic, now I have to jump to a whole new theme. But actually you don't, and I've had that feedback from clientele as well. One example coming to mind is I do some work for an incredible company in Lake Tahoe and do some consulting work with them and a series of training.
\n\nAnd I asked the broker-johner you know, what should I tell? Is there some specific thing you'd like me to talk about? Is there something new that's on the mind of your realtor, some new challenge? And he just said, *Eric: *, just keep talking about what you've already been talking about, like they can't hear that enough. So, yeah, it's the repetition. That's where you get the real value right and where people really start to get it. And then, as people, as I got that feedback, I started to think about my own experience and the people that I've learned from, like Dean and like yeah, I've heard the same thing. Or Dan Sullivan, or on and on right, I've heard them say that before, but this time they said it in maybe a slightly new way, or I was now in the right place to hear it in a way that I needed to hear it. So there's nothing. I think sometimes us, as we as coaches, content creators, we get fearful of being repetitive, or we're kind of averse, or we worry about that, and no, I think that just stay with that theme.
\n\nStuart:Yeah, I was just saying to someone yesterday that you're the only person who sees all of your content. Even your most engaged client or listener out is still only consuming a tenth of what you're putting out there. Even if they're listening to everything, it's in the background and they don't quite hear everything and they'll miss an email here or post there. So it's only you as the creator that sees everything, and the other people just see the very small pieces. And, as you say, it's not only that you might say in a slightly different way the tenth time you say it, it's that they're in a different place and here and ready to hear it, which that element of repetition and being out in front of people a lot at every opportunity is really the difference maker between just hoping that you happen to intersect with someone at the right point in time versus always presenting those opportunities to intersect whenever is the right point for them.
\n\nEric: Yes.
\n\nStuart:There's one of the scorecard the book blueprint scorecard, mindsets is this idea of beneficial constraints. So we talk there both in terms of time frame like putting a constraint on it in terms of actually getting it done, but also a constraint in terms of the breadth and the scope, because if you're trying to include everything, you'll never get around to it. It's much easier to create something that's on message. But also the other element of it is and again this came off in the conversation yesterday if you try and include everything just in the book but you kind of hoping that one tool does all of the work, which is unlikely the majority of people just skim and whether it's 70 pages or 700 pages doesn't really make a meaningful difference. Having that additional content in the email follow-up sequence or in social media that's referring to the book, using the book as the excuse to talk about it, all of that downstream stuff and the scope outside of the book much more effective and efficient than just trying to jam it all in those pages.
\n\nEric: Absolutely absolutely.
\n\nStuart:Yeah, let the book be the start and then have all the other pieces of content that queued up as follow-up Right because the point that you made you can say the exact same things in the 10 days of the email afterwards and hopefully by the 10th day it will resonate and someone will say, oh, this is what I need whereas I just might miss it in the first instance, this idea of scope constraint.
\n\nthen, was there anything as you were creating the content and thinking what should and shouldn't be included? Was it easy to stay on message and on target and not run the risk of scope creep derailing the project a little bit? Was there anything that you initially thought you wanted to include but then eventually didn't include?
\n\nEric:That wasn't a challenge for me. Only because I had taught this content live and I've taught it in a webinar. I had to benefit it, where I had already organized the content. My fear was that there wasn't enough, and that's probably a common thing with the authors that you come across. Well, this turned into enough pages and why even be able to talk for 90 minutes? And, oh my gosh, it was so smooth.
\n\nThe process was so seamless, it was so easy and it easily took up 90 minutes with no problem. I loved the process in that you said okay, we have nine chapters and I do some initial writing, and then you create the outline. We have nine chapters and you're just going to talk for 10 minutes on each chapter. I was like, oh my gosh, that makes much sense, that's so easy, I can do that. I can talk about this for 10 minutes, no problem Prompting with questions, and so yeah, it's funny because so many people get caught up.
\n\nStuart:and I guess it's only funny because we've been doing this for 10, 11 years now and you get so used to your own process you forget that other people things can seem like magic tricks, like what you would take as the base level, so I always forget that. People typically are coming in thinking about the end product and thinking about writing in like a school exercise or college exercise in the traditional way of doing it, which is what traditional publishing is. Here's some money up front, lock yourself in the cabin for six months and I expect to see something finished when we let you out. But the whole premise around the outline, that setup stage before you even think about recording that outline stage, is by far the most valuable because it gives it a structure and a framework and a constraints and a roadmap to each individual bite size piece. That makes the bringing together all the elements so much easier.
\n\nEric: Yes, it was so simple and so brilliant all at the same time. And I didn't understand the 10 minutes per chapter thing until I was told that I was sent the outline. Here you go. Here's based on the initial writing that you sent us. Here's the outline nine chapters. I was like oh great. And then for the interview, she said okay, you're going to talk for 10 minutes for each chapter. And I was like genius, Now I have a roadmap and now that's just an easy way to stay on track. I'm all about frameworks, I'm all about outlines, making things easy, I'm all about plug and play. So the fact that you gave that to me, it just made me feel so comfortable and relaxed and it was easy to flow.
\n\nStuart:That familiar piece that ties in with the scorecard as well, your scorecard for the process itself Giving people tools and techniques, things that they can either well both really conceptualize the idea, but then there's an exercise or a framework or a set of guidelines that they can see themselves progressing or act as reminders that, oh, I'm recognizing this pattern of behavior. Therefore, I know I need to do this piece. When people the book itself obviously is this introduction to the conversation it's more about setting the scene for what people can do and giving them some pointers, rather than the complete solution Only, if nothing else, because the complete solution is bigger than just a book. But this idea of bridging between ideas and tools and tactics, Is that something that's developed over the lifecycle of the program? And what's the feedback that you get from people who are using the system? Do they appreciate those tools as much as the ideas, or is it more the idea that resonates and then they're kind of figuring out for themselves?
\n\nEric: They appreciate understanding the concept and then being given this, given the solution. This is what we need to overcome and this is how this is exactly how you're going to do it. So I think sometimes people can get frustrated with only hearing theory, like, yeah, that's interesting, but what do I do with that? So I've learned the hard way not to do that, because I love to teach theory, but I figured out to be good also at giving the specific tactic. And then also I find that if it's only tactic and people don't understand how it fits conceptually or the reasoning behind it, there's less likely to implement it. So I found that you have to do both. So here's how I do it.
\n\nHere's this thing down, pushy, selling, common objection. This is the problem that it's causing for you. It's keeping you from doing these certain things. And people say, yes, that makes sense, I get it, that's true. And then here's how you solve it. So I have a thing in the book called the architecture of help. So this is how you frame up a conversation with someone that can potentially lead to you helping them with their real estate, and it's just, you know, simple, four-part framework. And so that's how I think about it and that's kind of what I've learned through my coaching and teaching.
\n\nStuart:And particularly I mean specifically for your example, I think for anyone out there being able to give people frameworks or acronyms or things that they can easily like, understanding where they are in the journey.
\n\nSo they have come across you in some way, either relatively high level in a Facebook account or relatively more detailed. They might have been on a list for a period of time. Now they get into the stage where they want to know more because the problem resonates with them individually. So they're opting in for a copy of the book because they want to start the conversation to resolve this problem, but understanding exactly where they are in the process and giving them enough tools that it makes it feel worthwhile, but either not baiting, switching into something else or being too superficial and not really giving valuable information. But it's the perfect blend frameworks and acronyms and small steps that they can take. It's the perfect blend of positioning it at the right level that this isn't. There is a course, there is coaching, there is more stuff further down the track, but at this point, at this time in this funnel, this is the right information to share with them. It really helps position the right amount of value at the right time that they're developing the relationship and moving forward towards doing something.
\n\nEric: Yes, absolutely. Something I learned from from Frank Kern, and I know Dean would 100% align with. This is the best way to demonstrate to someone that you can help them is to help them. And when I learned that I'm like, oh my gosh, that is so good and I'm just going to completely run with that. And I know I mean Dean's whole business, 90-minute books everything is built on that same philosophy and it so works. So, yeah, I found it's really valuable to give someone a quick win, like you got to get them, just if you can give them a quick win. And then you now they have momentum and progress and that you know feels good as the coach, as the trainer, and then you've increased the odds that they want to work with you more right.
\n\nStuart:Exactly, and that's actually a great bridge into the kind of the back cover and the call to action in the book. So the next steps that people can take after they've kind of read and consumed and they kind of have that certainty that they're in the right on the right page and going the right direction, bridging people from the content of the book to a next step you probably get an advantage, maybe to some people listening, because you've got quite an established set of attributes, that or assets there already the webinars and their online material and some other supporting material. But once that transition, like what's the first steps that you want them to take after they've read it?
\n\nEric: Well, I this is another chance to give credit to the process and the coaching that I got, because my thinking going in was okay, I want someone to get the book and then I want them to sign up for one of the four or five day challenges or free master classes that I do, and because that's I found recently, that's that is by far the most effective way for me to market what I do.
\n\nBut the coaching I got was hey, let's create another little step that in between, just to make it really super easy, really non-threatening for the person they're going to get to know you even more. And so the coaching I got was to create just a checklist, just a one pager, on non-pushy conversation starters, and I was like that's genius, that's so good, so that that that'll be. People will hear about my challenges and the master classes in the book. But, like, the most prominent next step called action will be hey, go to this website to download your just a one pager on non-pushy conversation starters, and then it will be market marketing by master classes and challenges.
\n\nStuart:Right, and that's so. The setup that we have for the back covers this idea of we're trying to meet, meet three groups of people where they are. The tag kickers want a nicer term, needs to think of a nicer term. But those people who are interested, but not interested enough to really raise the hand, so, like that, just go here for more content. Then there's the people who are kind of ready, know they're in the right place but aren't quite ready to jump on board with any real commitment yet. And then the people who are ready, those three groups.
\n\nIt is such a great job of meeting all the readers where they are, whether they're coming to you from the first time, so they really need a little bit more time to build up that level of credibility or the no-liking trust in order to take a step.
\n\nThe opportunity at this middle stage to still have an opt-in, to still have people sign up for something. But it seemed very non-committal and very non-threatening. So that's the perfect mix for people who get a copy of the book who haven't downloaded it, so maybe they'd buy it from Amazon or they're giving it from someone else. You don't know who those people are yet, so that's a very easy way to get them on the list. And then, of course, the people who are ready to go in a more meaningful way to go now. I think for most business owners, that idea those three groups of people that's applicable to everyone in every scenario 99.9% of the people who have a copy of the book in the handle on their screen they're going to fall into one of those three camps. And it's such an easy way of pacing out the conversation so that you're not trying to immediately go for the sell. Well, it's the non-pushy way of kind of moving people down the track.
\n\nEric: Exactly, you know.
\n\nStuart:Yeah, it's such a great option. And then that ties nicely into the kind of after the book, beyond the book, element of your setup, because then you can introduce them to the whole rest of the world. They're regular emails to keep that edutainment going a little bit and build that relationship more, always presenting people the opportunity to make the next step. You've already got webinar contents and video contents and documented type content. So just the fact that the book very easily slots into the funnel, either at the front end as the lead magnet to begin with, or even later on the process. Someone attends the webinar. They didn't convert immediately, so follow up with them with a copy of the book and say, hey, great, see, on the webinar. We talked a lot about this particular element. We cover that more detail in chapter three here. So I wanted to get you a copy of the book whenever you're ready. Do this piece. It just really sits. The book has an asset, sits so nicely into the funnels that you've got.
\n\nEric: Yeah, stuart, that's good coaching, I'm gonna make note of that. I love it as a follow-up. I haven't thought about it as a follow-up piece, but that makes complete sense.
\n\nStuart:Right and it's such a it's so difficult. Jumping back to the point you were saying before that most people are who you're having conversation with. For me and for you, they're at the early stage of the conversation and there's a lot more high level stuff or more detailed stuff, more nuanced stuff that you could go into. But the reality is we're really we need to get past this hurdle first, so we spend so much of our time talking about this stuff. But the fact that the book now exists and you've been a client for a period of time and you're already kind of three or four steps down the track, so now we can have these conversations about the more nuanced piece. But you can imagine a it's like a two, three-dimensional chess game of here's all of the assets that you've got and here's some of the big battleship type assets and here's some of the smaller assets. But these big ones, they can really be used in multiple different contexts in different pieces of the funnel and because it's the same subject, they're really just building on each other to.
\n\nThe webinar reinforces a book. The book reinforces the webinar. The emails can talk about either of them and just drop into bits of the conversation. The social media posts can use it as a a thing in the background of the image. So you kind of got it there, kind of subtly reminding people that it exists.
\n\nNow that you've created it, now the fun starts, because you get to plug it into all of these different places yes, yes, excited, yeah yeah, it's easy to get excited about it, and rightly so, I think, because it is something the whole purpose of the company that we started was to kind of democratize.
\n\nThis process of everyone thinks about a traditional book or a bestseller and all of this kind of million-dollar listing nonsense ended the spectrum which for most people is.
\n\nI mean, if any of that happened, then great, it's not a bad thing, but it's an irrelevant distraction to the real job of work of getting it out there and having it as the opportunity to use it when you go speaking at an event to be able to give a copy of the book. It's just an increase if other organizations or the businesses where they might do a lot of face-to-face selling the fact that you can walk in, or even the agents, I mean you can imagine a complete tangent now but you can imagine writing you writing for your agency, you coach book that allows them to demonstrate their expertise or their approach to this is my approach to non-pushy sales, non-pushy real estate, because everyone on both sides of transaction doesn't almost as reluctant to open the door because they don't want to be hit in the face by someone being pushy, but I'm going to sell your house through a non-pushy approach and as part of the package that we're doing, the listing presentation.
\n\nHere's the non-pushing book the fact that exists and the fact that it exists in physical format and the fact that someone's giving it to someone else, the fact that it's sharing more value. There's just so many opportunities absolutely it's a detached from whether it's a best seller, whether it's this big versus this big or all of the traditional elements that just don't move the needle as much as some other stuff right, exactly, I, yeah, I just wanted to be known as the non-pushy selling guy.
\n\nEric: I just I wanted, and so I knew the way to do that was to have a book, and I was lucky in that. I've I had experience having a book before and I so I know what it's like when you hand someone a book. Here's a book that I wrote and it just they're blown away. People are blown away in a very good way. They always say you wrote this. Oh, my god, you wrote this book. Yeah, I wrote that book, and so if anyone listening I need some inspiration to to do this, you know, write the book, like just do it, because there's nothing like handing someone or emailing them a book and telling them that you wrote it. It blows their mind and their and your credibility just goes through through the roof.
\n\nStuart:Yeah, it's funny, I like to say. We've been doing this for 10, 10 years now. 10, 11 years now. Time goes fast and almost from the start, all the way through, we've described the company is a real marketing company. We're not a publishing company. We just coincidentally stumbled on the fact that books are the most effective way to capture leads in the first place and then convert leads over time. But even from the start it there was still a feeling of the magic of this is going to wear off. This is a point in time where a book has an outsized credibility impact compared with the effort that we know it takes to create it, because there is effort but it's a relatively known quantity. But even 10 years later that effect.
\n\nThere was a podcast that will probably be maybe five before this one podcast with Paul Ross. He said exactly the same thing. So he's a podiatrist, he's written a couple of books. The latest one was my damn toe hurts, but he was saying exactly the same. He'll have people come into the office, sometimes with the copy of the book and we'll quote back to him the things that he said, or they'll come into the office and not know that he's the actual doctor they'll be seeing and they'll say oh, I've read your book. You're the person that wrote the book, so that same experience that you've had is across the board and it's definitely something that is makes the whole project. It's the cream on the top of the project. If that didn't happen, it would still be worthwhile doing, but the fact that it does happen is kind of in a tangible boost. It's almost difficult to quantify, but it definitely puts a glow around the whole thing and yes it's quite magical.
\n\nEric: Yeah, it is magical. Yeah, I learned from a gentleman named Adam Witte several years ago that if we all want to be an authority on a topic and the way to be an authority is to be an author, Like the root word of authority is author, and that's just really hit home for me. And again I've watched it happen. I wrote a book called the real estate agents guide to getting your act together, and so it's just a fun book to hand people and again they're just. They always say wait, you wrote this. Then you almost become like a celebrity.
\n\nStuart:So, on the one hand, it's kind of it makes you kind of a couple of little things I did and then, on the other hand, you're thinking, yeah, I did, why is that so unbelievable? Right, this is why I love about doing these podcasts with people, because it really gets the real stories out and the we can say it to people. But it's not the same as hearing it first hand from people and, regardless of whether people work with us or do it by themselves or work with someone else, the opportunity that people have got to get this asset out there and the fact that it's so disproportionately benefit compared with the time and money and investment into doing it. It's one of the I truly believe it's one of the best things that you can do, because it's just got so much. There's so many opportunities to leverage it.
\n\nEric: Yes, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, my pleasure.
\n\nStuart:I want to make sure that people got opportunity to follow along with your journey a little bit more and get a copy of the book and find out more about what you do. So what's a great place for people to go to to follow the *Eric: * story and keep abreast of what's going on so they can?
\n\nEric: get the book, and I'm expecting the book will be be ready on this website by the time. This is public, non pushy selling bookcom. By the way, I was really excited to get that URL. And then my website is inspire, perform, profit, calm. Inspire, perform, profit, calm. More about me, and then that's also where people can find out about the master classes and challenges that I do for free for realtors. So that's in that.
\n\nStuart:Fantastic and there's a wealth of information over there, so definitely recommend people check that out. We'll make sure we put the links in the show notes as well, so if people are on the move and miss that, then just look for the link either in the podcast player or on the website where the episode is up will put links straight to those places.
\n\nEric: Right.
\n\nStuart: Eric, it's been fantastic. I know the books just about to come out, so this podcast is. I think we're maybe 10 days or so away from releasing this, so there's a deadline on getting the website up. It'll be great to check back in in six or seven months and then see how it's been going and just feedback with people what the what the responses been and what the lessons have been and maybe some of the marketing campaigns you've done with the book once it's been created. Check back in and see how that's gone.
\n\nEric: I'd be happy to more than happy to Fantastic.
\n\nStuart:Well, thanks again for your time. It's been a real pleasure. Everyone, as always, thanks for listening. Check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one.
\n\nEric: Thanks so much.
","summary":"In today's episode of the Book More Show, we speak with real estate coach Eric Thompson. With over 30 years of experience coaching agents, Eric shares his insights. \r\n\r\nWe explore technology's benefits, like bridging connections through convenient, personal Zoom coaching. \r\n\r\nEric then outlines his effective \"Non-Pushy Selling System\", emphasising traits and perspectives that work. With advice applicable industry-wide, Eric provides nuggets for agents pursuing career heights.","date_published":"2023-10-15T08:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/126b6651-fc1a-45ef-a98c-2f42949ff100.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":28817566,"duration_in_seconds":2391}]},{"id":"7b3c987c-36d1-4865-9576-aa83a9902400","title":"Ep149: Simplified Strategies with Heidi Ardis","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/149","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Heidi Ardis, Founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a faith-based financial firm, about financial planning strategies and retirement goals and how she's developed a long-term approach to finding clients.\n\nHeidi shares insights from her new book Simplified Strategies for Retirees, which outlines practical yet straightforward approaches that start a conversation about retirement planning. \n\nWe explore the concept of a purposeful retirement focused on human connection and identity beyond finances and how helping people doing missionary work start their financial journey has led to a broad network of happy clients.\n\nThis is a great conversation about developing relationships and how a series of easy-to-digest books can lead to many opportunities to add value to potential clients.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\n\nWelcome Heidi Ardis, founder of Agape Wealth, a faith-based financial firm specializing in income distribution and retirement planning.\nHer book, _Simplified Strategies for Retirees_, aims to simplify the complexity of financial planning and offer effective strategies for a fulfilling retirement.\nAgape Wealth found a niche serving churches and global missionaries, by offering sound financial advice at a lower cost.\nHeidi stresses the importance of being discerning when choosing a financial advisor, and the significance of starting to save for retirement early, regardless of income level.\nA common pitfall in financial planning is the tendency to overestimate short-term and underestimate long-term opportunities.\nAgape Wealth assists clients with estate planning and financial education, guiding them through their financial journey.\nHeidi highlights the importance of financial discussions within couples and preparing for unexpected events.\nShe plans to write a series of financial books to simplify complex financial concepts. She gave a glimpse into her upcoming book and the insights it will offer.\nHeidi believes that retirement should be more than just financial security. It should also be about the chance to make real connections and live the retirement you want.\nAgape Wealth's approach is personal and holistic, building a relationship with clients over time and focusing on their individual lifestyle and retirement goals.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nHeidi Ardis- LinkedIn\nAgape Wealth\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/149\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart:Hey everyone, welcome back to another Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here and today excited to be joined by another one of our viewers of the show. Great to have you here. \n\nHeidi:Thanks, I'm happy to be here. \n\nStuart:Excited, fantastic. So it's always funny when I speak to people because I always see the books going through the system, but I don't always get chance to speak to people beforehand. So I kind of know people from the perspective of what they've written about, not necessarily their bigger background, and obviously the audience is meeting you for the first time. So why don't we start with a little bit of background about you and the organization? You're down in Mississippi, right? \n\nHeidi:I am yes, we're in Biloxi's that we're here on the Gulf Coast. We're actually about to have Cruise in the Coast happen here, which is the world's largest antique car show that we host every year here in Biloxi. But I am Heidi Artis. I am the founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, which is really a faith-based financial firm. It was developed over a long period of time with my faith and my family. \n\nI've been a financial advisor since 2006 and really over the last four years have focused specifically on income distribution and retirement planning for people who are headed into retirement or just wanting to make sure that they're on the right track to get there. So the book Simplified Strategies for Retirees was written for that reason to help people have a little book, because I know a lot of people don't actually like to sit down and read long big books anymore, but really something just simple where people can refer back to it, look at it. And it's written in plain English, because sometimes in the financial world or any professional industry we like to get over complicated with things. So that really was the mindset behind the book is to help people focus on what are some good strategies, what am I looking for and how do I get there, and so that was really the reason for the company being founded as well. \n\nStuart:And that tying in with the methodology and your approach. When people actually meet you in person or on Zoom these days and actually have that real conversation, the tie in between the books that they've read, that started the conversation and what you're then saying to them, it really makes a difference as opposed to the typical corporate jargon based information that's out there. There's no real connection and I think what you guys provide to people is not only the nuts and bolts of the technical solutions, but it's really the rounded, more holistic approach to building a relationship over time and helping them. Was that part and parcel of the idea of bringing it together in a book, this idea of kind of ceding the conversation, knowing that you were eventually going to speak to people in this way? \n\nHeidi:I mean and I'm actually in the process of writing another article right now for Kipling's, your magazine, about having a purposeful retirement, because retirement isn't just about your money you know, we work and work and then we get to retirement, and a lot of people, especially in the current generation of the baby boomers who are retiring their parents came from the generation that grew up during depression, post-depression, and so they had this mindset if you don't work, you don't eat. And so now they get to this point where, okay, well, I'm not going to work anymore. So what am I? Who am I? And so our goal here at Agave Wealth is to sit down with you and say, okay, the money is one thing, and we're going to get to that, obviously, but what do you want? Who do you want to be? What do you want to develop? \n\nYour retirement years should be the best years of your life, so let's drive that. Let's figure out what our goals are, what our dreams are. Do you want to pick up a new hobby? Do you want to be somebody who volunteers? Do you want to be a part of a church? What do you want to do? That's going to bring that purpose back to your life, because you're not just an employee and that's what we look at. Our whole life is okay. Well, I go to work, I take care of my kids, I do all of this stuff I have to do. Now I get to the point where I don't have to do those things. Now what? So that's really the purpose behind the book, too, is hey, let's get to that point where we can have a purposeful, meaningful, simplified plan that puts you where you want to be. \n\nStuart:Because, as you say, so much of the technical nuts and bolts is achievable. It's your individual approach to retirement planning is obviously can be tailored for each person. There's only so many tools in the toolkit that you're pulling from but to really dial into the lifestyle that they want, and not just sub-products that have an outcome, but that outcome is matched to what they want to do. It's funny, isn't it? It's kind of when you're in working age you meet someone for the first time and one of the first questions is what do you do? People's whole presence is so attributed to their career and the works of their business that having all of this free time all of a sudden, it can be quite I imagine it can be quite overwhelming. \n\nHeidi:It's definitely over. Well, with social media and with our jobs, we get disconnected from human interaction, and I think retirement is that time where we can get back to being interconnected, you know, with our community and with each other in a way that's not just based on the day-to-day grind of life, it's based on what you really want from you know from the last 30 years of your life what do you want to do? \n\nStuart:Without the constraints. You kind of got an open canvas. You mentioned the faith-based element of the work that you do and the clients that you service. Is that intentionally a large part of the audience or is it a coincidentally a large part of the audience? \n\nHeidi:Not necessarily. I think that's more a personal thing. You know we don't seek out just faith-based clients. I think it's more for people to know that everything that I do is purposefully driven inside from my face. So, you know, I want my outward being to reflect the inside. So the company's name a guy is the Greek word for love and how we are supposed to sacrificially love our fellow man the way that God loves us, and so it's really more personal in terms of you know, there's no judgment on our side for who you are, who you want to become. It's my job to reflect that. I'm going to love and put good into the world, regardless of you know, what's going on externally. \n\nStuart:It's interesting. I asked because I was working with another client just last week, so it's obviously top of my mind we were looking at their businesses is similar, but they probably focus a little bit more on the church side of things. Almost coincidentally, it's obviously very important to them and there's only so many hours in the week and their week is filled with working with those clients, so that's just coincidentally, the direction it was going. So I was thinking in terms of addressability of the market or the language that you use when you're talking to people. So it's something that I always pick up on because it's not part of my background. \n\nI think it's not reflected in the same way in the UK as it is in the US, so it's been across here. It just stands out a little bit more. But this idea of talking in the language that the audience resonates with the people who you want to work with resonates with and, as you say, with no judgment or bias against the people who use different language. But it's still a very fulfilling I don't know if that's quite the right word, but it's a very fulfilling way to talk about it because there's a commonality and of approach or direction, or there are only so many hours in the week, and if you happen to work with those people that resonate more, all the better. \n\nHeidi:Well, I think for me, I actually like working with people who feel differently. \n\nJust because of the fact that there's a lot in terms of religion, I guess that it has a lot of negativity associated with it, and because of that, we created a company to show that's not how it's really supposed to be, because if you are a follower of Christ, christ didn't discriminate, and so we want people to feel welcome, no matter who you are, who your background is. \n\nWe do actually work with some churches. One of our give backs is that we help global missionaries around the world to have financial advice that sound, and we do it at a pretty significant reduction in cost for them, just because they're traveling into remote areas of the world and most of the time they don't have a lot of money and so good financial advisors don't necessarily have the time or want to work with them because it's not really making them much money. So our give back is really working with global missionaries to help them get sound financial advice, but our main focus is really just working with retirees. Now, you do have to be nice. I don't necessarily want to work with people who are rude and obnoxious, but other than that, you know, we don't really preface who can or cannot be a part of the you need to be nice should be a rule on everyone's front door. \n\nStuart:That's kind of both the front door to the business coming in and their front door going out. \n\nHeidi:It's definitely that's the beauty of owning your own company, Right? You get to be selective in who you work with. So and that's the thing too for a retiree or somebody who is to find a financial advisor, you know, if you don't fit with somebody just because they're smart, that is not a really good reason to choose them. \n\nStuart:Right, that's that idea that you have a broad choice if you want to work with, and picking the people who either resonate because they've got saying they're going in the same direction or it's just something that you resonate with more. \n\nIt's a life will be very long and maybe wouldn't make it to retirement if everything was a flight and a struggle all the way through. \n\nRight, the point you made about the missionary work. That's an interesting element as well because there's my wife's a kindergarten teacher so we've we have our second marriage kind of reconnected later in life, but as a kindergarten teacher it's not the most financially rewarding of careers very rewarding in other ways, but not financially. And I imagine the mission needs in the same position is oftentimes you think that in order to plan for retirement you need a certain amount of disposable income to be able to get to that point where I think in the long arc of someone's career, if you start earlier, even if it's a very small amount, that just sets you up for more success in the future. So across the clients who work with maybe not just necessarily the missionary people Do you find that the people are almost reluctant to get involved in a conversation because they think they assume that they've got no options and choices, so kind of bury their heads in the sand where actually if they did something they might have a better outcome. \n\nHeidi:It's really about the due diligence of just starting, and I do think that people who have lower income levels feel defeated before they even get started, and so learning to live within one's meetings, regardless of what those means are, is the key, and paying yourself first. Obviously, you know if it comes to buying the new TV or having to put money away for your future. Maybe the TV can wait, but we've been conditioned to want everything right now and not looking towards saving up for the future. But I don't think that it matters how much money you make. It's more about percentages and what we're doing to get to the end goal, because I mean, if you're making your missionary and you're living on the lower income, or if you're a teacher and you're living on those means well, you can retire based on that and still have the same lifestyle. \n\nStuart:Right. Actually, that's a great point, isn't it? I think it's the same. I was talking to the podcast that will come out. The one before this was talking to Mike, who's a podcast producer, and was talking about who he gets to work with, and the assumption from people having podcasts is they compare themselves to NPR shows or Joe Rogan and if there are 100,000 downloads then it's not worth doing, which is obviously a ridiculous end of the spectrum. But with the social media element of people seeing the extremes of success, I think people get overly disheartened and forget that if they're trying to replicate what there are now, then that's not a million dollar retirement, that's 100,000, maybe, or 50,000 or still something that isn't zero. \n\nHeidi:Right. Well, I mean, that's a societal and cultural problem in the West period to go to cultural extremes and focus on those instead of really what we should be focusing on, which is the middle. You know, the middle area in the middle of the road. You know, kind of like an argument there's two sides to every story and there's a truth somewhere, but it's usually not on anyone's side. \n\nSo I think that the same thing goes for money or any other aspect of life. It's, you know, focus on what you want and where you want to go, and you need to set a goal. And most of the time when we set goals, we actually achieve them much faster than we set. So we say we got a five year goal and at two years you've already hit your five year goal and now we're moving on, and so it's really just setting a goal and headed. You know, if you get in a car and you don't turn on your GPS and you just drive, well, we don't know where we're going to land in the destination. But if you do put it, you have a destination and you're going to get there. \n\nStuart:Right. It really is the case that people underestimate the long term and overestimate the short term and get to certain and much quicker than I think people did in the past. The people that you work with are they mainly in the local area or do you have a statewide footprint or a national footprint? \n\nHeidi:Yeah, so I work. I mean, the bulk of my clients are probably in Mississippi. However, I do have clients in several states now, just because with me working with internet and internationally with missionaries and things like that. We have clients in Ohio and Florida and Texas and you know probably seven or eight different states, but that's always growing because you know once one person especially if you're in the church world you know they travel around the lot. So people refer to other places. But and we have a lot of military where we're at, where I live in Biloxi, there's three different military bases here. So you know clients sign up here but then they move to other locations. So we do a lot of zoom meetings. \n\nStuart:Right. Well, and that's something that again has changed in the last couple of years. That just broadens the footprint so much it just removes the barrier to. In the past someone would have moved and then automatically thought they would need to change the people that they work with, just because it's in practical. But now it's much, much more straightforward the idea that people move and once you're there, go to person, you can now stay there, go to person or wherever they are physically across the board. I'm always interested in people's experience of referrals within the business and how kind of orchestrated they are, or whether they coincidentally come up. The people who you work with. Do you get the feeling that they regularly remember to refer you, or is it kind of after the fact and thinking? I was talking to Bob last week and I should have mentioned it and I forgot. \n\nHeidi:So I think both are true. However, I would say my clients because I do a very personalized approach with them are more likely to refer. I mean, they call me and text me and they're telling me hey, I was just sitting down with a friend of mine and told them how excited I am about the plan that you put together. So you know, I'm going to send them your way, and that happens a lot without me even asking. But I think if you're in the corporate world, working in that big box firm, and you're looking for referrals, it's not necessarily as organic just because I mean I've worked in that world, and it's harder because you have to ask for a referral based on a plan that's put together in a box. It's this cookie cutter. Well, you're 35 and you have this much money and you are aggressive, so you fit in X and thank God I don't have to do that any longer. \n\nStuart:But spreadsheets and having a conversation with people for real. \n\nHeidi:I mean my clients know my children, they know my husband, they get to meet my family. I want to meet their families because retirement isn't, or even any kind of financial planning. I mean, one of my biggest clients is 35. She has three daughters. So I say to them you know, let's get to know each other on a personal level, because if all I know about you is what you tell me about how you live, but then it's not necessarily the same as interacting with you on a personal level. And so we want to be able to do that for people and that's more building a family type office instead of just let's run people through here like Walmart to generate as much revenue as possible, because if that's your goal, I mean that's fine, but that's just not necessarily what I'm looking for. My clients. \n\nStuart:A different service and your ability to interact and understand them. You know them as much as they know you. It really makes a difference to have a call with someone who you know and have something in a relationship with, rather than just an account number who's dialing into a call centre. \n\nHeidi:And inevitably you know in the industry that we work in, somebody is going to pass away and we want to be able to make sure that their family knows that we knew them and that we are enacting their wishes and not just a beneficiary on a page. And here you go, here's the money. We want to sit down and have a true, one on one, real conversation with families in those hard times and say this is what your parents or this is what you know, your grandma or whomever said they wanted for you, and that just means more to the person whenever those times come about to and it's a connection that not many other people have. \n\nStuart:I mean, the type of conversations that you'll have with people about their legacy and what they want are very open and candid and are there to be had. It's not like it was a sad conversation that popped up when they were talking to a family member. You're talking specifically about the outcome, so I guess that must offer some clarity to the family members who are left behind. There's no ambiguity. You don't have an ulterior motive. \n\nHeidi:You just there to share the wishes at that time, which, again, is very that's one of the themes in the book to I think one of the chapters in the book does discuss use Number one saying no to an advisor or saying no to the person you're working with. You need to get the courage to say no, that's not what I want. Or, you know, I want to work with somebody else. But there's a lot of different approaches in the financial world where you're either in a corporate or maybe you're working with, like an Edward Jones type office and there's one advisor and there's one assistant, but they have, you know, 500 clients, so you don't necessarily get personalized service because they have to maintain all of those accounts. Or you know there's a team of people and you go in to meet in the office and you don't know who you're meeting with. You're just going in and meeting with someone that is available, right. \n\nSo I created this company to be something different, something different than that. We don't want people to feel like, if you come in for a meeting, we want you to sit down on the couch, have a cup of coffee, let's talk, let's just interact for a little while before we actually go in and get into the conversations of. You know what's happening in your monetary life and, yeah, having those deep personal conversations most of the time we're able to find out more about you than you know. Sometimes you even know about yourself from the questions that we're asking. \n\nStuart:Right. That's actually a great point the whole chapter around saying no and being clear on what you want, rather than getting swept up just in the conversation. The idea of you being able to ask the questions that from what is it that you want to do in retirement, what is it that you want for your legacy, who is it that you want to be the beneficiary, and what is it that you think is what difference do you want to make in those lives? Those are questions that particularly I don't know whether it's in more of an issue with a slightly older generation, but there's definitely people who avoid those conversations because they don't want to talk about death and unless you actually do the job of sitting down and running through it, I can imagine a scenario where no one's ever asked those questions and then things happen and paths go in a completely different direction. That feedback that you get from people, the kind of eye-opening moment of oh actually, I see what you're saying. This is what I really mean Is that an experience that you get often from clients? \n\nHeidi:Yeah, and that usually prompts other things right. So that will prompt me to say, okay, well, it's probably important, if that's specifically what you want, that we need to go meet with the attorney and make sure that we have a will and a trust in place that are going to do those things. But if your main goal is to spend every dollar and you know on your deathbed to balance the last check, I mean, then we may not necessarily need an estate plan, but we probably should put something in place just in case. But I mean and sometimes we have to make those conversations lighthearted because you don't want people to feel downtrodden by the conversation of you know, we're all going to die someday. \n\nSo you know, specifically, if there's a couple where there's a pretty big age gap with the husband or the wife, you know we do have to have the conversation that you know this one you're probably going to pass away before. So we need to have a plan in place. Especially if you have a pension or you're going to lose the social security or there's some income that's going to be lost, we need to make sure that when that happens, that we are prepared for that. So I think it makes them feel better because as married couples, most of the time we're not talking about that with each other and we don't want to make our spouse feel uncomfortable. So when I am prompting the conversation, you know there's a lot of times you know we have to be just as good a marriage counselors as we do it because 99% of the time the couples are polar opposite One is very strong in saving and the other one is a spender. \n\nAnd you have to find the middle road where you say, okay, I understand that you are a super saver, but you know you have enough, let's have a little bit of enjoyment with what we've done, or you have to bring it back in. And so, yeah, having that conversation it prompts, you know, a lot of dialogue in the meeting, but most of the time it's not really heavy, because I don't necessarily talk about death. I'm just saying you know things are going to happen. We need to be prepared for the what ifs. \n\nStuart:Right, and particularly starting from the point of view as we started this conversation, talking about how you're entering retirement. This is a time where you're not encumbered by other work responsibilities, so it's the opportunity to do what you want to do rather than saying okay, you're approaching death, so let's get everything lined up, step out of the door. It's a more focused on the positives and the opportunities, rather than the contingency and the what ifs. \n\nHeidi:It's a great time to reconnect with your spouse on a more personalized, intimate level in terms of conversation and relationship. \n\nStuart:Right, yeah, yeah, it's losing number. Of years ago was she was moving to schools and had a period between schools so she was doing some. She's quite organized if you could see my office here I don't let her in here, but she's much more organized than me. So she was doing some like home organization type thing, but she's only did it for a month or two and only for people that she knew quite well, because inevitably it would turn into five minutes of organization conversation and five minutes of marriage guidance and therapy around why people are collecting so many things. So I can imagine the conversation about money is even more charged in that respect. \n\nHeidi:It's probably very similar because the way people live is typically the way they use their money, right. So it's honestly probably very similar because, just like you said, I am much more organized, probably than my husband, who has cabinets stuffed with things you know and I'm like let's just throw it away. But that's typically the case in most instances. You know one is one way and one is the other, but trying to find that balance. Trying to find balance, yeah. \n\nStuart:Let's put this slide into the book and the Herod plan on using the book. So we often talk about the book's been using kind of three ways. There's the lead generation, at the top of the funnel, kind of introducing to new people. There's the conversion tool, if you like, for one of the better term but using it in real life, giving it to someone as a kind of an amplification of a conversation you've already had. And then the referral strategy, so the clients you've got who know, like and trust you, letting them know that this is available. So it's a great tool to give to people who they know, who are talking about their financial planning and wealth management. Did you go into the project? Did you have a particular view on how you're planning on using it? Was it one of those ways or another way? \n\nHeidi:So I think the main way I wanted to use it is number one for my clients, so that they can, you know, share that with their friends. It's an easy way for them to share the ideas that we're using with family members or friends and say, you know, even if you don't want to work with the same person I'm working with well, she wrote a little bit of a book that can maybe help you guide yourself, because some people just want to do it themselves. But also I think the book helps with yeah, obviously, lead generation will put it on the website and people can download the book and use that as a tool for them. But main focus was to help show that we can take complex issues and make them simple, and so there'll be probably a series of books for different things. You know, for women entrepreneurs, we want to write a book for that. \n\nI even want to write a simplified strategies for children so that they can understand how to start saving and investing and giving back and understand the importance of those things as well. So we're going to write a few books, but mainly they're more self help books for the general public to say, okay, if I'm looking for something that I don't have to spend, you know, five hours or six hours to get through. But you know, these books are much smaller, you know, and I can go look at the chapter and say, hey, here's a good section for me to use to help me to generate some knowledge for myself. \n\nStuart:That's the thing I like about all of the clients that we work with this idea that breaking away from the traditional book, the traditional published book constraints if it has to be 200 pages to justify a $15 shelf price because the publisher wants to make $10 and then maybe $2 will trickle down to a person who also is basing their financial income on book sales. Breaking that model completely into this is the start of a conversation and just giving someone that bite size, valuable way of starting the journey in a in an accessible way. We often talk about kind of books that you could read on a flight. So at home it appears in Pennsylvania and the offices down in Florida. When I used to I drive now, but when I used to fly it was a two hour flight and jumping on and reading something and consuming that and being able to get off the plane knowing that there was a next step to take. It makes it so much more accessible and so much more kind of like democratizing the information and sharing that with useful ways. \n\nI really love the idea of this series that helps each individual group within the overall framework, but he helps each individual group just start that journey in the most meaningful way, going through the process obviously the book's complete now at the end of the process going through it, was there anything that you went into it expecting or thinking that was, that you wanted to include it eventually? Eventually didn't get included. This idea of kind of beneficial constraints is always one I'm kind of harping onto people about, the idea of start small and then add later, rather than going into this huge idea of a project and it being overwhelming. So was there anything that you went into it, thinking would you definitely want to include that? You then pushed for later or decided that it was out of scope. \n\nHeidi:Not necessarily, I think this particular book. We got to put in what we liked in there. However, for compliance purposes, there's things that we can't add or say. You can't really get into too much specifics or details, so the thing that I can say is, if you're reading the book and you're like, well, tell me exactly how to do that. The SEC doesn't necessarily allow us to put that in written form. So I would say those would be the constraints that would come not necessarily from the writing of the book or the content, but necessarily the compliance side of things. \n\nStuart:And it's also the idea of showing the, or sharing the seed of the idea, and getting the people to get someone to the point that they know why they need to do it and not necessarily how exactly to do it, because the how is always case by case and gets into the technicalities but at least moving people from the point of I think I should do this too. I should definitely be doing this. That really is what moves the needle for most people. \n\nHeidi:Well, I think a lot of times people only react when they're scared, when they are comfortable or when they just don't know. They do nothing, and that's most the time the wrong decision. It's when they get extremely uncomfortable and they're in a panic, is when they start to react and make decisions. And so I hope that the book helps people realize that. You know, just start calling, asking questions. It prompts you to write down some questions that you would want to ask and you interview people that you feel comfortable with, and when you finally get to that point where you're like, yes, this is the person I want to work with, then you can get into the in-depth sections of how this is going to work and how it's going to function for you. But doing nothing most of the time is the wrong thing. Or if you have an advisor now and you're just like, well, I don't really know what they do, I get that a lot. People come in here and I'm like, okay, well, tell me what your plan has been. Well, I don't know. \n\nStuart:That's not a good response. You should know what's going on. \n\nYeah, rather than hoping that everyone happens to be on the same page and is pulling the same direction. This has been great. What I really love about the opportunity to get to speak with people is you can see their passion coming out and coming through, which obviously comes through in the pages. But it makes a difference having some real conversation, which again I guess is the purpose of the book the book that you lead to a real conversation with a real person who's consumed something, has decided that you're the right person to work with because you resonate and move forward from there. Where can people find out more about their organization? I want to make sure we leave people with some, a place where they can go and actually find out more. \n\nHeidi:So you can go to agapewealthcom, which is a-g-a-p-e wealthcom. You can call us at 228-333-5683. You can visit us on Facebook. You just go to Facebook, backslash agapewealthcom, and that's our Facebook page. And then there's also LinkedIn as well. So we have multiple ways to get in contact with us. \n\nStuart:All the channels. Well, we make sure that we put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, they can just click on the podcast player or, if they're watching on the website, we'll link directly through and just highly recommend people go and grab a copy, even if they're out of their area or if they think they've got someone that they're working with. As you said, it just gives you the questions in there. That just prompts more ways of thinking about things which people might not have come across before. So, yeah, well worth grabbing a copy. \n\nHeidi:Or empowering them to know what questions to ask. \n\nStuart: Right, yeah, for sure. Well, thanks for your time. It's been a real pleasure. Everyone listen. We'll put notes in there, we'll put links in the show notes, so definitely follow that for sure, and we'll check back in with you in a few months and see how things are going and look forward to seeing the rest of the series come serve fruition as well. \n\nHeidi:Thanks for having me on, and we really are excited about the book and look forward to the next ones that we're going to write. \n\nStuart:Fantastic thanks, heidi. Thanks for watching and we'll catch you in the next one. \n\nHeidi:Thanks. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Heidi Ardis, Founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a faith-based financial firm, about financial planning strategies and retirement goals and how she's developed a long-term approach to finding clients.
\n\nHeidi shares insights from her new book Simplified Strategies for Retirees, which outlines practical yet straightforward approaches that start a conversation about retirement planning.
\n\nWe explore the concept of a purposeful retirement focused on human connection and identity beyond finances and how helping people doing missionary work start their financial journey has led to a broad network of happy clients.
\n\nThis is a great conversation about developing relationships and how a series of easy-to-digest books can lead to many opportunities to add value to potential clients.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/149
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\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
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\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nHeidi:Thanks, I'm happy to be here.
\n\nStuart:Excited, fantastic. So it's always funny when I speak to people because I always see the books going through the system, but I don't always get chance to speak to people beforehand. So I kind of know people from the perspective of what they've written about, not necessarily their bigger background, and obviously the audience is meeting you for the first time. So why don't we start with a little bit of background about you and the organization? You're down in Mississippi, right?
\n\nHeidi:I am yes, we're in Biloxi's that we're here on the Gulf Coast. We're actually about to have Cruise in the Coast happen here, which is the world's largest antique car show that we host every year here in Biloxi. But I am Heidi Artis. I am the founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, which is really a faith-based financial firm. It was developed over a long period of time with my faith and my family.
\n\nI've been a financial advisor since 2006 and really over the last four years have focused specifically on income distribution and retirement planning for people who are headed into retirement or just wanting to make sure that they're on the right track to get there. So the book Simplified Strategies for Retirees was written for that reason to help people have a little book, because I know a lot of people don't actually like to sit down and read long big books anymore, but really something just simple where people can refer back to it, look at it. And it's written in plain English, because sometimes in the financial world or any professional industry we like to get over complicated with things. So that really was the mindset behind the book is to help people focus on what are some good strategies, what am I looking for and how do I get there, and so that was really the reason for the company being founded as well.
\n\nStuart:And that tying in with the methodology and your approach. When people actually meet you in person or on Zoom these days and actually have that real conversation, the tie in between the books that they've read, that started the conversation and what you're then saying to them, it really makes a difference as opposed to the typical corporate jargon based information that's out there. There's no real connection and I think what you guys provide to people is not only the nuts and bolts of the technical solutions, but it's really the rounded, more holistic approach to building a relationship over time and helping them. Was that part and parcel of the idea of bringing it together in a book, this idea of kind of ceding the conversation, knowing that you were eventually going to speak to people in this way?
\n\nHeidi:I mean and I'm actually in the process of writing another article right now for Kipling's, your magazine, about having a purposeful retirement, because retirement isn't just about your money you know, we work and work and then we get to retirement, and a lot of people, especially in the current generation of the baby boomers who are retiring their parents came from the generation that grew up during depression, post-depression, and so they had this mindset if you don't work, you don't eat. And so now they get to this point where, okay, well, I'm not going to work anymore. So what am I? Who am I? And so our goal here at Agave Wealth is to sit down with you and say, okay, the money is one thing, and we're going to get to that, obviously, but what do you want? Who do you want to be? What do you want to develop?
\n\nYour retirement years should be the best years of your life, so let's drive that. Let's figure out what our goals are, what our dreams are. Do you want to pick up a new hobby? Do you want to be somebody who volunteers? Do you want to be a part of a church? What do you want to do? That's going to bring that purpose back to your life, because you're not just an employee and that's what we look at. Our whole life is okay. Well, I go to work, I take care of my kids, I do all of this stuff I have to do. Now I get to the point where I don't have to do those things. Now what? So that's really the purpose behind the book, too, is hey, let's get to that point where we can have a purposeful, meaningful, simplified plan that puts you where you want to be.
\n\nStuart:Because, as you say, so much of the technical nuts and bolts is achievable. It's your individual approach to retirement planning is obviously can be tailored for each person. There's only so many tools in the toolkit that you're pulling from but to really dial into the lifestyle that they want, and not just sub-products that have an outcome, but that outcome is matched to what they want to do. It's funny, isn't it? It's kind of when you're in working age you meet someone for the first time and one of the first questions is what do you do? People's whole presence is so attributed to their career and the works of their business that having all of this free time all of a sudden, it can be quite I imagine it can be quite overwhelming.
\n\nHeidi:It's definitely over. Well, with social media and with our jobs, we get disconnected from human interaction, and I think retirement is that time where we can get back to being interconnected, you know, with our community and with each other in a way that's not just based on the day-to-day grind of life, it's based on what you really want from you know from the last 30 years of your life what do you want to do?
\n\nStuart:Without the constraints. You kind of got an open canvas. You mentioned the faith-based element of the work that you do and the clients that you service. Is that intentionally a large part of the audience or is it a coincidentally a large part of the audience?
\n\nHeidi:Not necessarily. I think that's more a personal thing. You know we don't seek out just faith-based clients. I think it's more for people to know that everything that I do is purposefully driven inside from my face. So, you know, I want my outward being to reflect the inside. So the company's name a guy is the Greek word for love and how we are supposed to sacrificially love our fellow man the way that God loves us, and so it's really more personal in terms of you know, there's no judgment on our side for who you are, who you want to become. It's my job to reflect that. I'm going to love and put good into the world, regardless of you know, what's going on externally.
\n\nStuart:It's interesting. I asked because I was working with another client just last week, so it's obviously top of my mind we were looking at their businesses is similar, but they probably focus a little bit more on the church side of things. Almost coincidentally, it's obviously very important to them and there's only so many hours in the week and their week is filled with working with those clients, so that's just coincidentally, the direction it was going. So I was thinking in terms of addressability of the market or the language that you use when you're talking to people. So it's something that I always pick up on because it's not part of my background.
\n\nI think it's not reflected in the same way in the UK as it is in the US, so it's been across here. It just stands out a little bit more. But this idea of talking in the language that the audience resonates with the people who you want to work with resonates with and, as you say, with no judgment or bias against the people who use different language. But it's still a very fulfilling I don't know if that's quite the right word, but it's a very fulfilling way to talk about it because there's a commonality and of approach or direction, or there are only so many hours in the week, and if you happen to work with those people that resonate more, all the better.
\n\nHeidi:Well, I think for me, I actually like working with people who feel differently.
\n\nJust because of the fact that there's a lot in terms of religion, I guess that it has a lot of negativity associated with it, and because of that, we created a company to show that's not how it's really supposed to be, because if you are a follower of Christ, christ didn't discriminate, and so we want people to feel welcome, no matter who you are, who your background is.
\n\nWe do actually work with some churches. One of our give backs is that we help global missionaries around the world to have financial advice that sound, and we do it at a pretty significant reduction in cost for them, just because they're traveling into remote areas of the world and most of the time they don't have a lot of money and so good financial advisors don't necessarily have the time or want to work with them because it's not really making them much money. So our give back is really working with global missionaries to help them get sound financial advice, but our main focus is really just working with retirees. Now, you do have to be nice. I don't necessarily want to work with people who are rude and obnoxious, but other than that, you know, we don't really preface who can or cannot be a part of the you need to be nice should be a rule on everyone's front door.
\n\nStuart:That's kind of both the front door to the business coming in and their front door going out.
\n\nHeidi:It's definitely that's the beauty of owning your own company, Right? You get to be selective in who you work with. So and that's the thing too for a retiree or somebody who is to find a financial advisor, you know, if you don't fit with somebody just because they're smart, that is not a really good reason to choose them.
\n\nStuart:Right, that's that idea that you have a broad choice if you want to work with, and picking the people who either resonate because they've got saying they're going in the same direction or it's just something that you resonate with more.
\n\nIt's a life will be very long and maybe wouldn't make it to retirement if everything was a flight and a struggle all the way through.
\n\nRight, the point you made about the missionary work. That's an interesting element as well because there's my wife's a kindergarten teacher so we've we have our second marriage kind of reconnected later in life, but as a kindergarten teacher it's not the most financially rewarding of careers very rewarding in other ways, but not financially. And I imagine the mission needs in the same position is oftentimes you think that in order to plan for retirement you need a certain amount of disposable income to be able to get to that point where I think in the long arc of someone's career, if you start earlier, even if it's a very small amount, that just sets you up for more success in the future. So across the clients who work with maybe not just necessarily the missionary people Do you find that the people are almost reluctant to get involved in a conversation because they think they assume that they've got no options and choices, so kind of bury their heads in the sand where actually if they did something they might have a better outcome.
\n\nHeidi:It's really about the due diligence of just starting, and I do think that people who have lower income levels feel defeated before they even get started, and so learning to live within one's meetings, regardless of what those means are, is the key, and paying yourself first. Obviously, you know if it comes to buying the new TV or having to put money away for your future. Maybe the TV can wait, but we've been conditioned to want everything right now and not looking towards saving up for the future. But I don't think that it matters how much money you make. It's more about percentages and what we're doing to get to the end goal, because I mean, if you're making your missionary and you're living on the lower income, or if you're a teacher and you're living on those means well, you can retire based on that and still have the same lifestyle.
\n\nStuart:Right. Actually, that's a great point, isn't it? I think it's the same. I was talking to the podcast that will come out. The one before this was talking to Mike, who's a podcast producer, and was talking about who he gets to work with, and the assumption from people having podcasts is they compare themselves to NPR shows or Joe Rogan and if there are 100,000 downloads then it's not worth doing, which is obviously a ridiculous end of the spectrum. But with the social media element of people seeing the extremes of success, I think people get overly disheartened and forget that if they're trying to replicate what there are now, then that's not a million dollar retirement, that's 100,000, maybe, or 50,000 or still something that isn't zero.
\n\nHeidi:Right. Well, I mean, that's a societal and cultural problem in the West period to go to cultural extremes and focus on those instead of really what we should be focusing on, which is the middle. You know, the middle area in the middle of the road. You know, kind of like an argument there's two sides to every story and there's a truth somewhere, but it's usually not on anyone's side.
\n\nSo I think that the same thing goes for money or any other aspect of life. It's, you know, focus on what you want and where you want to go, and you need to set a goal. And most of the time when we set goals, we actually achieve them much faster than we set. So we say we got a five year goal and at two years you've already hit your five year goal and now we're moving on, and so it's really just setting a goal and headed. You know, if you get in a car and you don't turn on your GPS and you just drive, well, we don't know where we're going to land in the destination. But if you do put it, you have a destination and you're going to get there.
\n\nStuart:Right. It really is the case that people underestimate the long term and overestimate the short term and get to certain and much quicker than I think people did in the past. The people that you work with are they mainly in the local area or do you have a statewide footprint or a national footprint?
\n\nHeidi:Yeah, so I work. I mean, the bulk of my clients are probably in Mississippi. However, I do have clients in several states now, just because with me working with internet and internationally with missionaries and things like that. We have clients in Ohio and Florida and Texas and you know probably seven or eight different states, but that's always growing because you know once one person especially if you're in the church world you know they travel around the lot. So people refer to other places. But and we have a lot of military where we're at, where I live in Biloxi, there's three different military bases here. So you know clients sign up here but then they move to other locations. So we do a lot of zoom meetings.
\n\nStuart:Right. Well, and that's something that again has changed in the last couple of years. That just broadens the footprint so much it just removes the barrier to. In the past someone would have moved and then automatically thought they would need to change the people that they work with, just because it's in practical. But now it's much, much more straightforward the idea that people move and once you're there, go to person, you can now stay there, go to person or wherever they are physically across the board. I'm always interested in people's experience of referrals within the business and how kind of orchestrated they are, or whether they coincidentally come up. The people who you work with. Do you get the feeling that they regularly remember to refer you, or is it kind of after the fact and thinking? I was talking to Bob last week and I should have mentioned it and I forgot.
\n\nHeidi:So I think both are true. However, I would say my clients because I do a very personalized approach with them are more likely to refer. I mean, they call me and text me and they're telling me hey, I was just sitting down with a friend of mine and told them how excited I am about the plan that you put together. So you know, I'm going to send them your way, and that happens a lot without me even asking. But I think if you're in the corporate world, working in that big box firm, and you're looking for referrals, it's not necessarily as organic just because I mean I've worked in that world, and it's harder because you have to ask for a referral based on a plan that's put together in a box. It's this cookie cutter. Well, you're 35 and you have this much money and you are aggressive, so you fit in X and thank God I don't have to do that any longer.
\n\nStuart:But spreadsheets and having a conversation with people for real.
\n\nHeidi:I mean my clients know my children, they know my husband, they get to meet my family. I want to meet their families because retirement isn't, or even any kind of financial planning. I mean, one of my biggest clients is 35. She has three daughters. So I say to them you know, let's get to know each other on a personal level, because if all I know about you is what you tell me about how you live, but then it's not necessarily the same as interacting with you on a personal level. And so we want to be able to do that for people and that's more building a family type office instead of just let's run people through here like Walmart to generate as much revenue as possible, because if that's your goal, I mean that's fine, but that's just not necessarily what I'm looking for. My clients.
\n\nStuart:A different service and your ability to interact and understand them. You know them as much as they know you. It really makes a difference to have a call with someone who you know and have something in a relationship with, rather than just an account number who's dialing into a call centre.
\n\nHeidi:And inevitably you know in the industry that we work in, somebody is going to pass away and we want to be able to make sure that their family knows that we knew them and that we are enacting their wishes and not just a beneficiary on a page. And here you go, here's the money. We want to sit down and have a true, one on one, real conversation with families in those hard times and say this is what your parents or this is what you know, your grandma or whomever said they wanted for you, and that just means more to the person whenever those times come about to and it's a connection that not many other people have.
\n\nStuart:I mean, the type of conversations that you'll have with people about their legacy and what they want are very open and candid and are there to be had. It's not like it was a sad conversation that popped up when they were talking to a family member. You're talking specifically about the outcome, so I guess that must offer some clarity to the family members who are left behind. There's no ambiguity. You don't have an ulterior motive.
\n\nHeidi:You just there to share the wishes at that time, which, again, is very that's one of the themes in the book to I think one of the chapters in the book does discuss use Number one saying no to an advisor or saying no to the person you're working with. You need to get the courage to say no, that's not what I want. Or, you know, I want to work with somebody else. But there's a lot of different approaches in the financial world where you're either in a corporate or maybe you're working with, like an Edward Jones type office and there's one advisor and there's one assistant, but they have, you know, 500 clients, so you don't necessarily get personalized service because they have to maintain all of those accounts. Or you know there's a team of people and you go in to meet in the office and you don't know who you're meeting with. You're just going in and meeting with someone that is available, right.
\n\nSo I created this company to be something different, something different than that. We don't want people to feel like, if you come in for a meeting, we want you to sit down on the couch, have a cup of coffee, let's talk, let's just interact for a little while before we actually go in and get into the conversations of. You know what's happening in your monetary life and, yeah, having those deep personal conversations most of the time we're able to find out more about you than you know. Sometimes you even know about yourself from the questions that we're asking.
\n\nStuart:Right. That's actually a great point the whole chapter around saying no and being clear on what you want, rather than getting swept up just in the conversation. The idea of you being able to ask the questions that from what is it that you want to do in retirement, what is it that you want for your legacy, who is it that you want to be the beneficiary, and what is it that you think is what difference do you want to make in those lives? Those are questions that particularly I don't know whether it's in more of an issue with a slightly older generation, but there's definitely people who avoid those conversations because they don't want to talk about death and unless you actually do the job of sitting down and running through it, I can imagine a scenario where no one's ever asked those questions and then things happen and paths go in a completely different direction. That feedback that you get from people, the kind of eye-opening moment of oh actually, I see what you're saying. This is what I really mean Is that an experience that you get often from clients?
\n\nHeidi:Yeah, and that usually prompts other things right. So that will prompt me to say, okay, well, it's probably important, if that's specifically what you want, that we need to go meet with the attorney and make sure that we have a will and a trust in place that are going to do those things. But if your main goal is to spend every dollar and you know on your deathbed to balance the last check, I mean, then we may not necessarily need an estate plan, but we probably should put something in place just in case. But I mean and sometimes we have to make those conversations lighthearted because you don't want people to feel downtrodden by the conversation of you know, we're all going to die someday.
\n\nSo you know, specifically, if there's a couple where there's a pretty big age gap with the husband or the wife, you know we do have to have the conversation that you know this one you're probably going to pass away before. So we need to have a plan in place. Especially if you have a pension or you're going to lose the social security or there's some income that's going to be lost, we need to make sure that when that happens, that we are prepared for that. So I think it makes them feel better because as married couples, most of the time we're not talking about that with each other and we don't want to make our spouse feel uncomfortable. So when I am prompting the conversation, you know there's a lot of times you know we have to be just as good a marriage counselors as we do it because 99% of the time the couples are polar opposite One is very strong in saving and the other one is a spender.
\n\nAnd you have to find the middle road where you say, okay, I understand that you are a super saver, but you know you have enough, let's have a little bit of enjoyment with what we've done, or you have to bring it back in. And so, yeah, having that conversation it prompts, you know, a lot of dialogue in the meeting, but most of the time it's not really heavy, because I don't necessarily talk about death. I'm just saying you know things are going to happen. We need to be prepared for the what ifs.
\n\nStuart:Right, and particularly starting from the point of view as we started this conversation, talking about how you're entering retirement. This is a time where you're not encumbered by other work responsibilities, so it's the opportunity to do what you want to do rather than saying okay, you're approaching death, so let's get everything lined up, step out of the door. It's a more focused on the positives and the opportunities, rather than the contingency and the what ifs.
\n\nHeidi:It's a great time to reconnect with your spouse on a more personalized, intimate level in terms of conversation and relationship.
\n\nStuart:Right, yeah, yeah, it's losing number. Of years ago was she was moving to schools and had a period between schools so she was doing some. She's quite organized if you could see my office here I don't let her in here, but she's much more organized than me. So she was doing some like home organization type thing, but she's only did it for a month or two and only for people that she knew quite well, because inevitably it would turn into five minutes of organization conversation and five minutes of marriage guidance and therapy around why people are collecting so many things. So I can imagine the conversation about money is even more charged in that respect.
\n\nHeidi:It's probably very similar because the way people live is typically the way they use their money, right. So it's honestly probably very similar because, just like you said, I am much more organized, probably than my husband, who has cabinets stuffed with things you know and I'm like let's just throw it away. But that's typically the case in most instances. You know one is one way and one is the other, but trying to find that balance. Trying to find balance, yeah.
\n\nStuart:Let's put this slide into the book and the Herod plan on using the book. So we often talk about the book's been using kind of three ways. There's the lead generation, at the top of the funnel, kind of introducing to new people. There's the conversion tool, if you like, for one of the better term but using it in real life, giving it to someone as a kind of an amplification of a conversation you've already had. And then the referral strategy, so the clients you've got who know, like and trust you, letting them know that this is available. So it's a great tool to give to people who they know, who are talking about their financial planning and wealth management. Did you go into the project? Did you have a particular view on how you're planning on using it? Was it one of those ways or another way?
\n\nHeidi:So I think the main way I wanted to use it is number one for my clients, so that they can, you know, share that with their friends. It's an easy way for them to share the ideas that we're using with family members or friends and say, you know, even if you don't want to work with the same person I'm working with well, she wrote a little bit of a book that can maybe help you guide yourself, because some people just want to do it themselves. But also I think the book helps with yeah, obviously, lead generation will put it on the website and people can download the book and use that as a tool for them. But main focus was to help show that we can take complex issues and make them simple, and so there'll be probably a series of books for different things. You know, for women entrepreneurs, we want to write a book for that.
\n\nI even want to write a simplified strategies for children so that they can understand how to start saving and investing and giving back and understand the importance of those things as well. So we're going to write a few books, but mainly they're more self help books for the general public to say, okay, if I'm looking for something that I don't have to spend, you know, five hours or six hours to get through. But you know, these books are much smaller, you know, and I can go look at the chapter and say, hey, here's a good section for me to use to help me to generate some knowledge for myself.
\n\nStuart:That's the thing I like about all of the clients that we work with this idea that breaking away from the traditional book, the traditional published book constraints if it has to be 200 pages to justify a $15 shelf price because the publisher wants to make $10 and then maybe $2 will trickle down to a person who also is basing their financial income on book sales. Breaking that model completely into this is the start of a conversation and just giving someone that bite size, valuable way of starting the journey in a in an accessible way. We often talk about kind of books that you could read on a flight. So at home it appears in Pennsylvania and the offices down in Florida. When I used to I drive now, but when I used to fly it was a two hour flight and jumping on and reading something and consuming that and being able to get off the plane knowing that there was a next step to take. It makes it so much more accessible and so much more kind of like democratizing the information and sharing that with useful ways.
\n\nI really love the idea of this series that helps each individual group within the overall framework, but he helps each individual group just start that journey in the most meaningful way, going through the process obviously the book's complete now at the end of the process going through it, was there anything that you went into it expecting or thinking that was, that you wanted to include it eventually? Eventually didn't get included. This idea of kind of beneficial constraints is always one I'm kind of harping onto people about, the idea of start small and then add later, rather than going into this huge idea of a project and it being overwhelming. So was there anything that you went into it, thinking would you definitely want to include that? You then pushed for later or decided that it was out of scope.
\n\nHeidi:Not necessarily, I think this particular book. We got to put in what we liked in there. However, for compliance purposes, there's things that we can't add or say. You can't really get into too much specifics or details, so the thing that I can say is, if you're reading the book and you're like, well, tell me exactly how to do that. The SEC doesn't necessarily allow us to put that in written form. So I would say those would be the constraints that would come not necessarily from the writing of the book or the content, but necessarily the compliance side of things.
\n\nStuart:And it's also the idea of showing the, or sharing the seed of the idea, and getting the people to get someone to the point that they know why they need to do it and not necessarily how exactly to do it, because the how is always case by case and gets into the technicalities but at least moving people from the point of I think I should do this too. I should definitely be doing this. That really is what moves the needle for most people.
\n\nHeidi:Well, I think a lot of times people only react when they're scared, when they are comfortable or when they just don't know. They do nothing, and that's most the time the wrong decision. It's when they get extremely uncomfortable and they're in a panic, is when they start to react and make decisions. And so I hope that the book helps people realize that. You know, just start calling, asking questions. It prompts you to write down some questions that you would want to ask and you interview people that you feel comfortable with, and when you finally get to that point where you're like, yes, this is the person I want to work with, then you can get into the in-depth sections of how this is going to work and how it's going to function for you. But doing nothing most of the time is the wrong thing. Or if you have an advisor now and you're just like, well, I don't really know what they do, I get that a lot. People come in here and I'm like, okay, well, tell me what your plan has been. Well, I don't know.
\n\nStuart:That's not a good response. You should know what's going on.
\n\nYeah, rather than hoping that everyone happens to be on the same page and is pulling the same direction. This has been great. What I really love about the opportunity to get to speak with people is you can see their passion coming out and coming through, which obviously comes through in the pages. But it makes a difference having some real conversation, which again I guess is the purpose of the book the book that you lead to a real conversation with a real person who's consumed something, has decided that you're the right person to work with because you resonate and move forward from there. Where can people find out more about their organization? I want to make sure we leave people with some, a place where they can go and actually find out more.
\n\nHeidi:So you can go to agapewealthcom, which is a-g-a-p-e wealthcom. You can call us at 228-333-5683. You can visit us on Facebook. You just go to Facebook, backslash agapewealthcom, and that's our Facebook page. And then there's also LinkedIn as well. So we have multiple ways to get in contact with us.
\n\nStuart:All the channels. Well, we make sure that we put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, they can just click on the podcast player or, if they're watching on the website, we'll link directly through and just highly recommend people go and grab a copy, even if they're out of their area or if they think they've got someone that they're working with. As you said, it just gives you the questions in there. That just prompts more ways of thinking about things which people might not have come across before. So, yeah, well worth grabbing a copy.
\n\nHeidi:Or empowering them to know what questions to ask.
\n\nStuart: Right, yeah, for sure. Well, thanks for your time. It's been a real pleasure. Everyone listen. We'll put notes in there, we'll put links in the show notes, so definitely follow that for sure, and we'll check back in with you in a few months and see how things are going and look forward to seeing the rest of the series come serve fruition as well.
\n\nHeidi:Thanks for having me on, and we really are excited about the book and look forward to the next ones that we're going to write.
\n\nStuart:Fantastic thanks, heidi. Thanks for watching and we'll catch you in the next one.
\n\nHeidi:Thanks.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Heidi Ardis, Founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a faith-based financial firm, about financial planning strategies and retirement goals and how she's developed a long-term approach to finding clients.\r\n\r\nHeidi shares insights from her new book _Simplified Strategies for Retirees_, which outlines practical yet straightforward approaches that start a conversation about retirement planning. \r\n\r\nWe explore the concept of a purposeful retirement focused on human connection and identity beyond finances and how helping people doing missionary work start their financial journey has led to a broad network of happy clients.\r\n\r\nThis is a great conversation about developing relationships and how a series of easy-to-digest books can lead to many opportunities to add value to potential clients.","date_published":"2023-10-08T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/7b3c987c-36d1-4865-9576-aa83a9902400.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":23962274,"duration_in_seconds":1986}]},{"id":"d913e543-3da3-4863-bc56-444b1c3f0519","title":"Ep148: What to Talk About with Mike Tassone","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/148","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Mike Tassone, a seasoned producer and editor with over a decade of experience in content creation, about his new book \"But What Should I Talk About?' \n\nMike has a diverse content creation background, and his current podcasting business always starts with the same question from clients... But what should I talk about? His book is the perfect example of addressing client questions head-on & using it to start conversations with people he can really help.\n\nWe had a great conversation about this approach and exploring the synergy between podcasting and book marketing, especially how they support each other in the journey to engage and keep potential leads engaged until they are ready to take the next step. \n\nMike's approach is in tune with ours, and the real win for the majority of business owners is not, how many listeners the show gets, but the opportunity to use if for all the authority, engagement, and door opening opprotunities it provides.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\n\nMike Tassone, an experienced producer, shooter, and editor, discusses the potential of podcasting as a tool for maintaining long-term engagement with an audience.\nHis diverse experience in content creation across different industries allows him to offer a unique perspective on how businesses can leverage podcasting.\nThe importance of direct audience communication and brand understanding is emphasized, as well as the challenges in educating others about the power of podcasting.\nMike explains how podcasting and book marketing can work together to create a self-perpetuating machine for content distribution.\nThe principles of Jim Rohn's pinwheel of marketing can be used to drive a podcast to success and stimulate audience action.\nMike highlights the real value of podcasting for business owners, stressing the importance of setting realistic expectations for success and return on investment.\nThe significance of working with the right producer, treating oneself like a media company, and creating a body of work, even if imperfect, is discussed.\nEven if a podcast only has a few hundred listeners, it can still be successful, demonstrating that there is no niche too small to explore.\nListeners gain a deeper understanding of the power and potential of podcasting as a medium through Mike's journey in broadcasting.\nThe podcast episode is segmented into different chapters, each discussing different aspects of podcasting, making it easy for listeners to digest the content.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nMike Tassone- LinkedIn\ntalkaboutbook.com\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/148\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. It's Joe Bell here and today super excited podcast expert is in the house, mike Tasone. Mike, how are you doing? \n\nMike: buddy, awesome Thanks for having me today. It's a pleasure. \n\nStuart: It's a pleasure. This is going to be an interesting show because we've often talked about before this idea that a book is a fantastic lead captures, all that part of the beginning of the funnel, but then people struggle a little bit in the long term. Engagement with people, and therefore podcasts, have come up as a conversation in the past. Obviously, it's something that we're super excited about. We hear a lot of them across the group here, but this is something that you can help people with directly. So I'm really interested to get your take on the bridge between books and podcasts and then really how people can leverage the podcast opportunity into this idea of staying in front of people all the time. So let me start with a bit of background to introduce who you are and what the organization does. \n\nMike: Perfect. So my name is Mike Tasone. I've been a producer shooter editor. I'm based in Toronto, ontario, but I've been, I've kind of been able to go all over North America. I've been Western Canada, bahamas, all kind of encompassing the left side of the map, if you're looking at it out of map. So producer shooter editor, which means like the internet calls it it's a funny word but the internet calls it a predator. So, like I said, producer shooter, editor, and that means I've just kind of taught myself over the years how to shoot, how to edit, how to produce, how to create content. My experience spans about a decade. I started doing it. I was always a hobbyist. So since I was like seven or eight, my dad always showed up to birthday parties with the big RCA. You know the boombox camera. \n\nAnd you know, with the VHS tapes and he had a little Fred Flintstone sticker on it. So it was, and I had like an obsession with cameras for as long as I can remember. But I was also a big sports guy, played hockey, football, everything kind of growing up. So those two loves were kind of like this for a really long time. And then when I got to Toronto I'm from a really small town in Northern Ontario close to St Marie, really rough went like a lot like those Philly winters, really rough winters. You know some hearty people will call them real in Northern Ontario, type, you know, type people. \n\nAnd so when I moved to Toronto, it created this whole world. There was this entire new world that I just had no idea. I was used to, you know, going to football practice and then coming home making stupid little videos with my buddies. And then you get to Toronto and it was about 2010. And there was a little bit of an industry here which you can make money doing it. And I was pretty naive, I had no idea how to you know the internet remember Instagram was still like a photo sharing app, no tick tock. Youtube was still kind of you know, working itself out. So there was a lot of work in nightclub photography, which is a hilarious. You know, I don't even think it exists anymore. \n\nStuart: I would call it as a niche. Yeah, he was that. The promoters, the club owners, were using that as their mock. The punters wanted that picture taken. \n\nMike: No, it was. So what would happen is you would get hired to come in and do like a photo album or make a video of a DJ at a club, Right and yeah, and I had no idea, I just thought, oh, you're getting paid to play with your camera. We're cool, I'm all right with that. I'm trying to put myself through. I'm make money on the weekends, you know, supplements, some cash for those ever important textbooks that I may or may not have bought. \n\nSo I did that for about two or three years and that led me to some really cool spots. I was able to cover some really cool I mean, I'm not a big electronic music fan but, like I was able to cover a lot of really cool DJs that now are mega huge, that back in the day they were just, you know, at silly little nightclubs. But that got really boring really quick because it was the same it's the same thing over and over again, right, but the type of edits I was doing. It was really high, intense. You know I had it. I developed a skill set that was different than a lot of editors and a lot of shooters right. \n\nStuart: It wasn't the best niche because of the way that you kind of came up in my environment. It was very kind of your style match there Like EDM type. \n\nMike: Yeah, very, you know big crazy, you know edits that kind of made no sense, but they were loud and they looked sexy, and so so I played football at my university and when I stopped playing, the head coach a couple of years later had, you know, had approached the, I guess, the media department and he wanted to make like a I don't know if you've heard of the series hard knocks. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nMike: Yeah, he wanted something like that and me being an alumni of the team, sort of. I mean, I was around, I was. \n\nStuart: Overconnection and need the background. \n\nMike: Yeah, a little bit of a connection there with the background and knowing the sport inside and out. So I was like, well, I've got the skill set. I showed them my portfolio. It's not exactly sports, but I know sports in it inside and out. Right, created my own job at the school for three years. I followed the football team around. After that it kind of once again starving artists type stuff. I landed a contract at a bank here, kind of just making bank videos, and then the big my Mount Everest was. I got a job as a producer, shooter and editor at Canada's number one sports broadcasting company. \n\nStuart: So it would be like our. \n\nMike: ESPN and I was the first position of their kind. I shot, edited, whatever. And that's when I really I mean, I covered the Raptors when they won the first championship here in Canada, which was a highlight of my life. I have the thing right here, that's my media pass, like that was it for me, right? And then to bring it back, that's when I started getting introduced to podcasting and I was involved with three really big shows that were national number ones, number twos, you know, top 10, top fives. \n\nAnd that's when I sort of under then COVID hit and the work from home phenomenon started happening and I've realized, wow, I can do podcasts from anywhere and this is a really cool thing to kind of be involved with. So, with you know, I got taught by some really good producers and then after that I started kind of going off of my own and that's sort of where I am now. I'm taking this experience and I created podcasts for a few people and it's kind of getting going now and but when you have that big time experience, you want to, like you know, help people out and make the most of it Right, particularly when you see that there's a desire out there. \n\nStuart: people want to do this and want to get there, but sometimes it's just the technical steps or the hurdles to get started that hold on the back. As we kind of sat here with knowledge in our heads. We just want to share it as much as possible. \n\nMike: You want to share it. It's funny because I've, over the last, it's been really picking up over the last three years. Obviously, right, everyone's like I need to get out there. And the types of conversations everyone's always afraid to just start it. That's number one. It's number one. Everyone's just afraid to start. And then they're afraid to start and they have no idea what to talk about. So that's where the book kind of thing came from. Or I'm like well, everyone keeps saying the same sentence what do I talk about? So I go well, let's dig into that. And then you know, through experiences and all that sort of, how I landed with this idea to do the do the book. \n\nStuart: So who are the target audience for? Is it mainly business owners or personalities or people who've got like a passion project? Is it one particular niche or is it just the niche is people who are interested in broadcasting? \n\nMike: I personally found that businesses can. There's a return not immediately, but there's a better opportunity for a return for a business to start something like this. Because I think if you're a personality, you know it's not that you can't, everyone can and it's a beautiful medium to do. But unless the goal is to become a comedian or a podcast, or you know the divorce lawyer that knows everything and you're the authority in the space, it's obviously incredibly difficult. It's like becoming a pro athlete. It's the same kind of thing, right. \n\nBut with businesses, the point isn't necessarily to have 10 million downloads. The point isn't necessarily to make money doing the podcast. The point, if you have a business, you already have an audience. You already have a bunch of people that like your product, like your service. So the point of it for a business is to create a perpetuating machine that you can just get your content out to people and speak to people directly. I don't think people understand how important it is to touch their audience directly. Right, we're doing. You know we have the newsletters and all that, which is great. That's what you should turn the podcast into. But the point of the podcast isn't to make money on the podcast. It's another marketing effort. \n\nStuart: And trying to get people to understand that. \n\nAnd it's the same conversation as with the books, as the assets themselves. It's the conversation and the opportunity to, as you say, talk directly to the person who's reading it. That's where the real opportunity comes in. Nothing to do with book sales or podcast downloads or the likelihood of getting advertising revenue from it. All of these things are secondary. If the main job of work is keeping engaged to people who are going to become your clients and give you the hard to get money for the work that you actually do not get paid for, the advertising, for the opportunity to keep in conversation with people that idea Is that something that more people are starting to catch on to? It's not such a heavy lift to get people to understand, or is it still? People come and start the conversation with you thinking that this is advertising wherever you'll make money from the podcast itself and you've really got to educate them into their bigger opportunities. \n\nMike: All of the conversations are trying to get people to understand what their podcast is going to look like. Because, if you think about it, the only podcasts that we know of are the super successful ones. I don't even want to say the names, because it's podcast. It's a podcast full pop. To say the names of the big dogs, right, but everybody just knows the famous ones and the big ones. \n\nSo when I say to an owner of a car dealership or a real estate agent, oh, a podcast would be a great idea, they seem to not understand. Well, what would I bring? What would my podcast even look like? I only know of XYZ podcasts. So what would mine even look like? It's like well, the point is, if you're a real estate agent, you're a highly localized, that's a highly localized sector for you, especially if you're a real estate agent. So if you show up as the authority in the space in your area by talking about it every day, by giving people tips, tricks, interest rate, you know mortgage, whatever people are going to come to you when it's time to get a mortgage, because they know, oh, this guy talks about it every day. I'm going to go to. I'm going to go to Stuart. Stuart talks about mortgages every day. Why wouldn't I go to him when it's time to get him Right, so that it's trying to get people to understand? You don't have to hop on and talk about nothing. Your podcast 10 minutes, right? It doesn't? \n\nStuart: that is. It's such an interesting point, isn't it? Because when you think about one of the traditional broadcast type of where the show is the product, they have to be a certain length and the delivery is the entertainment within the product itself, within the show, because the show is the product, the product is the show. If the show is the excuse to share something of value, but broadly stay in touch and give people a clear call to action of how they can engage more, take that next step, the level of content. It takes the pressure off so much because you're not trying to produce something that's entertaining. \n\nSo right, hopefully it is entertaining so right turned off by it, but it doesn't have to be. It just takes away a whole level of pressure. We had an example with. It was a real estate example which brings to mind. So part of the real estate education piece that we teach in that space is this idea of a flagship broadcast, a regular communication, and for real estate, an easy way of doing it is what we call a market watch report. So just every week talk about what's come on the market this week and just bring some engagement to as the market's changing. So this idea of market watch. So there was one real estate we worked with I mean over 10 years now, up in the northeast, up by main, manchester, boston. So he had been sending out the market watch every week. He decided I'm going to purchase the list Anyone who hasn't responded or opened it or whatever criteria we had not anyone who hasn't done that in two years, I'm going to take them off the list. \n\nI'm just going to send to the people who have engaged In completely pointless why you'd make him some of the necessary judgment anyway. \n\nAnd then about six months later got a call from a picked up a voicemail and he was at one of our events and played the voicemail and it was well read Hi, it's Bob here. I've been on your list for five or six years but I guess something must have happened with my email. Anyway I stopped receiving it. I had to phone around a couple of other agents in town to get your number, but anyway I've got it now. Hopefully this is you. Give me a call. I've got two beach properties to list. \n\nMike: Oh, wow, so okay. \n\nStuart: The properties were worth like $4 million across the two off and one of them was like how long was the site? The guy had to call other agents. I can imagine how that called went. Hi, it's Bobby. I'm looking to list my two beach properties. Do you have Kenny's phone number? \n\nMike: Yeah, I want this other guy, not you. I want this other guy, yeah. \n\nStuart: And then for Kenny to purge that list, thinking that someone wasn't engaged. But to bring it back to your point and the conversation we're having here, I can call it already when they're ready, and our job is to stay engaged with them until that point is for them. We can't tell when it is. They're not going to send us a letter ahead of time saying I'm going to be ready in a month or two. \n\nWe just need to keep being there, and it's a challenge as business owners Because you've got the day-to-day business to do. But doing a podcast where, if you've been in business for any length of time, it's easy to talk about your subject, you can bridge it into points of interest if you feel we need to do that as well. But this opportunity to create weekly or fortnightly unique content that can then be, which can multiplied in a whole host of other ways, it's by far the easiest and highest value thing that you can do, and even if no one ever listens to it, it doesn't matter because you're still an opportunity. \n\nMike: It doesn't, and that's another funny thing. It's funny that you say that because it doesn't matter really if anyone's really listening to it, because you're not trying to be a top five podcast, you're just trying to constantly have your hands out there and say listen, I'm here if you need right and if you want to buy that house, I'm here. If you want to join my gym, I'm here. Today we're going to talk about nutrition, but if you want to join, we're also here. And I mean I'd like to say that people are starting to come around to that. I'm still. \n\nThere's still people out there that are just like well, who's going to listen? And they want to get the ROI and get into the stats and the minutia. I understand ROI and I understand investment and people want to get the return. But when you have something like that, that you can piece one episode let's say you do for 20, I think I say this in the book but if you have a 20 minute episode, that's potentially 21 minute pieces of content that you can fire off and that's almost a month's worth of stuff that you just have to sit down and do once for 20 minutes and talk about something you love or like, at least right. \n\nSo it's very valuable. But I think people are still looking at the vanity metrics, the stuff that doesn't really matter. But if you can, if you just get out, get outside of that and understand you're just constantly out there massaging your audience. That's where the juices are with a podcast. \n\nStuart: The opportunities as well. So we talked about this in the book sense that there's a lot of additional value from having a book, this kind of societal value that's placed on the book as a product, which is maybe more than it deserves knowing how the, the sausage is actually made. \n\nIt's not rocket science, but there's a lot of presence from it, and I think the same goes for podcasts in the sense that it gives you a way to open doors with people that you wouldn't otherwise have opportunity to talk with. So if you are looking at establishing yourself as a stick with a real estate example because it's easy for everyone to conceptualize as a realtor if you were trying to talk to the, to talk to the planning committee, to talk to the restaurant owners, to position yourself as the not even so much as a trusted expert, but as the person who's bringing the trusted experts to the audience, opening those doors and having those conversations with people outside of podcasts is going to be a little bit tricky because people are busy. There's an element of people wanting to be guests on podcasts. There's an element of kind of people love being guests. \n\nYeah, tickles the parts of them, the ego part of them, that allows them to just turn up and take some pressure off and turn up as the expert and be presented that way, but you as the host being the person who's doing that, connecting quite a different story than trying to recreate that same amount of energy and content and goodwill through any other medium. I mean trying to write that type of stuff or go out and video it like a news news segment. All of that stuff is much more difficult than in a podcast. And then, of course, we get into the technological advances over the last 12 months of the distribution side of things. So the ability to create it in the first place is somewhat easier. Obviously, there's a slide in the scale there, but what you can do with it once it's created and people looking for a business based ROI, I mean, where else, like you say, would you be able to create 20 individual pieces of content from one seed piece? And that's just the first blush like loan code drilling down even further. \n\nMike: So yeah, this side sorry yeah, just on that point, because that's a great point you just made and it's not even the audio side of just having the chunk. It's like you can turn that into your. If you're a business owner, you know how important your email list is. \n\nThat's lifeblood for a lot of business owners, right, being able to tell the people that love you directly. Now, those 21-minute shorts yeah, that covers your TikTok and your Instagram and all that kind of stuff. But let's not forget, you can create an episode into a newsletter, which I think is we. I ran a podcast with I've talked about in the book, but I ran a podcast with a couple of guys who turned every episode into a newsletter and it was more in depth and the author of the newsletter drove in a little harder. You know what we can only cover in an hour. He really condensed it in, so, but it was about the episode as well. It was taken from the episode. \n\nAnd then let's say you know, on a podcast you can only talk for so long. You can even turn that into a blog. And now you got another thing and throw that up on your website. So it's a great point that it's so juicy in what you can plug it into. It's just getting over the hump of like you don't have to be the next superstar comedian to start a podcast. You don't have to be. You just kind of have to be a brand that loves what you've got going on and throw a couple layers deep. \n\nStuart: I'm passionate for the subject. It's so interesting as well because once you separate the idea from okay, I've got to be. I'm competing with Joe Rogan, yeah. \n\nMike: Oh, you said the bit, you said the word, you said the word you said, the demons all come down again. \n\nStuart: Yeah, once you separate that, it's like books. I mean, no one's suggesting that it makes sense for a business owner to think that the only benefit they'll get from a book is competing with Tom Clancy or JK Rowling or Steve Walsh. I mean, it's the same delivery mechanism and you get some of the shined light from the medium, but the actual thing itself is completely different. One of the other things I like about the podcast idea and it ties in with the newsletter follow up, the mentions is that it ties in with books so well. So this idea of this kind of synergy, of having all of the individual assets that tie together into something much bigger. Again, sticking with a real estate example, you can imagine the real estate. What was the name of the little tenure from? \n\nSusay Marie, so you can imagine being a real estate in Susay Marie and having the show that talks about living in Susay Marie and we're doing a highlight on the school and highlight on restaurants and there's a planning committee development going on over here. So bringing all of the local knowledge but then having the book that ties in with it, the living in Susay Marie, the guides living in Susay Marie, so on the podcast, then you can. A call to action on the podcast would be to get the book and then the newsletter or the blog post or everything that's created downstream links back to those two assets as their way to find out more. We often talk about the call to action on the back of the book covering the three groups of people the IHIC is one of the best and the people who are still in the gathering phase, the people who are interested to move forward, but aren't quite yet ready to reach out and engage you fully. \n\nAnd then those people are ready to go now. \n\nThree assets of the podcast being the perfect way of just gathering more information and passively following along with the journey until you're ready to move to the next stage. And then the book is a way of generating a little bit more interest or habit as the leading into the overall world and then the easy way to get started. It's such a collective, as I said, the synergy of collected assets bringing together and your book. Then, I guess what do I talk about? This first question that everyone's got that really solving the problem and getting people to think about it in a different way. That ties together perfectly with this kind of synergistic idea. Once you know, once you accept this idea of what you can talk about and that is relatively open-ended, with a small amount of effort up front to think about it, then the world just opens up. That was a long way of getting to the next stage. \n\nMike: Yeah, yeah, a long way of getting to the next stage. \n\nStuart: This idea of bridging people into okay, what do I talk about? And then helping them think about that slightly bigger picture. Is that relatively formulaic, in that there's some things that anyone can think about, or is it very much? People have to think about it case by case. \n\nMike: I got this example I believe I think it was Jim Rohn and he was in one of these marketing books. I forget. This stuff just pops up and it sticks in the brain. But he was talking about the pinwheel of marketing. So the pinwheel of marketing looks a little bit. Obviously it's not podcasting, but I was looking at it going. \n\nWell, this kind of works with a podcast, because if you think of it like a pinwheel, the middle of the pinwheel is the thing you're trying to sell. That's the thing that you're selling, whether it's gym memberships, whether it's houses, whatever. The core competency of your business is the middle of that pinwheel. That's why you're in business, right, and Jim can't run without membership. You need membership dollars, you need someone to keep the lights on right. But then the ancillary thing is on top of it, where you get your momentum, because momentum in a podcast is more important than probably anything. Everyone fades it's a pod fading thing. Three months, everyone, 90% of them, go away, like because you get bored, you get tired, you go. Why aren't I famous yet? Why isn't Spotify here? It's, you know what I mean. So you need that momentum. So when you start adding so I sell memberships, well, it's a gym. So who comes to my gym? Well, people who are into nutrition, people who are into mental health, people who are into wellness. \n\nWhen you think of a couple layers deep, you can start thinking about how I can get that pinwheel spinning so at least I get some momentum. So you have five topics and maybe you're on a weekly schedule. Now you have one topic every week for at least five weeks. That's about two months. That's about two months of podcasting that you can get through. You keep doing that enough times. Well then you're spinning and you're spinning and you're spinning, and then at least you can get up to cruising altitude and you can be consistent, because everybody quits when they don't want it to slog, and it will be a slog. It's always going to be a slog, but if we can just get people to that three month mark of like I've been doing this for three months, it's now part of my. So let's say, you're a manager and you do weekly meetings, it's now part. It's that ingrained into my habit. \n\nThe habit is formed and now you're just going to keep doing it and then you kind of don't care, because then you start going well, I'm having fun, so who cares? I'm having fun now. And maybe a six months down the road someone goes I really love that podcast, you do. I'm in the market to buy an apartment building you were talking something about. I know in the States there's like FHA loans and things like that. You were talking about that. You know, let's do some business right. It's that it's. I say it's that simple, it's not that simple. \n\nStuart: But it's right. \n\nMike: I think I say in the book like it's a simple execution wrapped in kind of a convoluted marketing effort. But if you can get your habits you know good habits built, then it's a self perpetuating machine that will keep going and going as long as you have energy for it. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that model. Actually it's a great way of thinking about it as well, because I think, thinking about a year's worth of podcasts of what we're going to talk about, this, like 50 new episodes that seems like a lot, but if you can break it down, so I love the idea that you were talking about there, the gym has four or five key components. \n\nMike: Yeah. \n\nStuart: That's only 12 in a year 12 nutrition podcasts, 12 fitness bodybuilding, 12 weight loss 12 case studies, client transformation stories. \n\nThat's much more achievable and not such a daunting prospect going into it. Once you start breaking it down and again, I'm a big fan of kind of like systems and frameworks and just defining the model and then just having to repeat it. Once you've got that broken down, then the people on the other end start getting used to what they're listening to. The model becomes familiar. There's an expectation of a familiarity of what they're about to expect and get from you, and then backing that up with the emails that have been sent out relating back to the shows, taking those chunks out and here's where you can go and find more. It just breaks it down into each piece. Being so much more by its side is then trying to visualize the whole kind of podcast marketing success. \n\nMike: And people get freaked out when, oh man, I've got to do all of this stuff. And, yes, you will eventually have to do talk the Instagram, the shorts, the YouTube shorts. You will eventually have to do that. But if you can get into a groove of rotating your topics and then what happens is you'll start to get good at rotating your topics and you'll slide in maybe a special episode or you'll in the gym example I gave in the book I was talking about how like a gym has you know this particular gym I was thinking of when I was writing? \n\nIt has about 400 members. Well, if you take all of their stories, that's 400 episodes that you can talk about and people will appreciate. Someone in there will have the same story as maybe 50 other people. Oh, you know what? I was a you know what? When I was younger I was a great athlete and then I just fell out of shape. But then I found the gym and you know the guys at the gym are so great. Well, there's probably 50 people out there that might have that same story. Oh, I remember when I used to. You know bench 260, whatever. I want to get back into it Now. You're the gym with the cool podcast that supports its owners or supports its members, and now you have this thing going again, right? \n\nStuart: no-transcript and it makes it so much more crystal. Like you were saying before, it's a connection with the audience. It's difficult to achieve through any other medium and if you can do it in a way that's sustainable and manageable, it's. We were on the show a few a couple of months ago now. We were with Paul Ross. He was a podiatrist, so he wrote he's written a couple of books actually, but one of them was called my Damn Toe Hood. So he was saying that people will come in and they're excited to see him because he's the person that wrote the books. \n\nThere's an element of connection and celebrity that's associated with it, and the same with podcasts. I listen to, I consume quite a lot of podcasts and there's definitely a feeling of knowing. It's a very one-sided relationship, but there's definitely a feeling of knowing the people. I mean we can get it with this show. People will come on board as clients, having listened to and done with the shows, and know the frameworks that we talk about. So not only is there a personal connection there, but they're also educated customers in the sense of they're on board because they resonate with the way that we do it. You're right. \n\nIn a specific way and it just makes the whole downstream connections and seamlessness of the rest of the relationship so much smoother, which wouldn't have happened without booking the podcast. \n\nMike: Right, it's cool because, like you can have, you can line up 10 other producers, 10 other shooters, 10 other editors, 10 other podcast guys, and they'll give you their own story or template and how they do it. And they're going to sit there and say I'm the, mine's the best because we get you to 10,000. Listen, what, like at some point, it's all commodity, it's whatever at some point. Right, you go with the person at this point because there's so many. I mean, I think I said there's about 2 million active podcasts right now, which isn't even that many If you consider there's like I don't know 10 billion websites, but there's 2 million active podcasts. \n\nLike there's a lot of room there to to mess around and there's a lot of room to experiment. And when you realize what the execution of a podcast like you can only do it so many ways, you really can only flip on the mic, you can really only do. Like you can only do it so many ways. Nowadays, it's who's going to climb the mountain with you, who's the producer or the host or your social team, who's going to say you know what, we're going to put in one to three years and we're just going to go and we're going to see what happens. Like that's what you're looking for, more so now. A couple of years ago you were looking for who's the hackier guy who can hack the algorithm. If we post on Wednesdays at 2pm, we get more. You know what like that now I think it's irrelevant now, because it's irrelevant now. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such a move on space and, for the most, it's like SEO to a certain degree. Yes, there is some. There's some things that you can do wrong which would damage it. \n\nMike: Sure. \n\nStuart: But for the most part there's not that much that you can do. Extra that moves the needle a massive amount, unless you're willing to just bubble down completely down that route and really go very hard and then you can move the needle at the top end. But that thick middle of not doing anything wrong, a thick middle of we're all in the same ballpark and then it's expensive up at the top, like you say, that middle is where things naturally whether that bell curve type diagram it's that's where the thick middle is. And now you're not looking for tricks and tips, Now you're looking for how does this solicit can tie in with whatever else I'm doing and how much? \n\ntime I've got and the personality and the finding the people who you want to work with. It's not just one person you could work with. You could work with a number of people. \n\nMike: So you could work with many. \n\nStuart: Yeah, so find the person that you resonate with the best and really enjoy the process. \n\nMike: And that's the like if you could sit every business owner down and go. One rule of podcasting you have to enjoy this. This has to be like a fun marketing effort that you're doing to get your business out, to get your whatever out to the world and have some fun with it. If you don't like this, if this doesn't, if this isn't enjoyable to you, don't do it, because it's going to be brutal. It's going to be like I mean these, a lot of business owners. You've started something from nothing and you've started a business. It's the use that muscle with the podcast. If you can't connect that and you're you know you're pissed off after two months and you're like oh man, like 10 listens it's and then you want to quit doing it and you know how there's more of those people than people who are actually doing it. You're going to get frustrated, you're going to hate it, you're going to think it's useless. Why am? Why are we not making money off of it? \n\nStuart: The mindset has to be a little bit different these days across the board, right, it's a great point, because it's not the right fit for everyone Like we can come on here and talk for three hours about podcasts and books and the time the pod just fly by. \n\nBut if you're turning up to something that's a hassle, every time you're going to be looking for. Your brain, either consciously or subconsciously, is going to be looking for all of the reasons to quit and, I guess, not showing up missing a week. The download numbers aren't being what you want it to. No one's kind of reaching out and knocking on the door and giving you awards. All of those things are going to prove evidence to yourself that this isn't right, because you've already got that mindset. \n\nMike: Right. \n\nStuart: If you really love writing, you can't think of anything you'd rather do. Then just write. Don't try and force it into a podcast unless there's a passion there. Yeah, I think for most people it is the easiest way of getting seed content out there, because most business owners can talk about the thing that they're interested in and passionate about easier than anything else. \n\nMike: Yeah, agreed, and I think it's a lot more genuine to coming from a business owner, let's say, because you are the guy, you're the one who created the business, you're the one who you're already making money on. You're making money doing something that you like or love or good at it's like, why not talk about it and get other people stoked on doing it as well? Right, that's, it's only natural. \n\nStuart: Yeah, the other element to that is as well. It's surprising how no niche is too small, like when you start drilling into some of these random esoteric things that you even imagine had an audience. But in today's day and age there's a thousand people out there who are passionately engaged through it and you would be the person who kind of dominated that space because you're the person who's talking about it. I think as well in if you're of the mindset that this needs to be a top 10 podcast with 10,000 downloads every episode, that's a high bar to hit. But if you instead think, okay, this is my business or this is a part of my business, and I know that there's only 100 people out there in the world and only half of them ever listen to Pog, but if I'm talking to those 50 people, then that's success because that's who the audience is. It's not a comparative audience to something bigger. It's how much of the pie am I getting and engaging with Again, it just changes the dynamic so much. \n\nMike: And also, too, like, think about this right, If you have I don't know, let's, we'll call it 400 listeners a month. Right, If you have 400 listeners a month, imagine how cool it would be if you went downtown Philly and every Friday at 4pm, 400 people showed up to listen to you talk about something. \n\nAnd it's no matter what 400 people, you're not going to notice the next week. If 410 come and 30 come, you're just going to show them go. Wow, I got. Look at this crowd, I got 400 people every week. That's that right there in itself is like 400, you know, 410 million, sure, huge disparity, huge disparity. \n\nStuart: It's so irrelevant to. \n\nMike: But it's irrelevant. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think that's the. It's the blessing in the coercive where we are in technology and the access to markets. Like if you said 20 years ago that we could get you a full of 400 people, people would be ecstatic because they were. 20 years ago that volume was that was a decent number of people, but now, in a world where you just see headline numbers and Instagram, famous people and their followerships are kind of pushing people's faces that top tiny percentage is so disproportionately skewed to numbers and people's thinking of what success is to the long end of the spectrum. \n\nYeah, I think. One interesting way of thinking about it, though, as you mentioned before, is this newslet. Right there, I think we are going to see 150 episodes in. \n\nI'd be better at my technique, so I was going to make a very certain point. Then that's completely gone out of hand. I was going to talk oh, you were talking about the newslet, so this idea of return on investment. So with the books and the clients that we're talking to, with the podcast and the people that you're talking to, it's majoritably business owners with the main job of work of engaging more clients. There's some people on the edge that don't have to read, but the main chunk of these are the people who we're talking to. \n\nAnd if you could say to someone if from having a conversation once a week with someone, it translated into three clients a year, would that be successful? And most people would probably say yes, because the majority of us are in slightly higher ticket. We're not in commodity businesses where it's very low volume, low cost, high volume, turn out and stuff. We're not selling candies at a checkout and just need volume. It's slightly higher. So three people a year. You would probably accept that if you were joining like a, not a, mentoring a community, a network. \n\nYeah, yeah, networking. If you joined a local networking group in Toronto then and they said, well, you'll probably get an average three clients a year comfortably, you probably think that was successful. And a podcast is easier to do, it's more convenient, reach, far more legacy and longevity than something like that. Not so equal, but it's different. But this real expectation of the kind of softer benefits and not nothing to do with download numbers, but turning into real connections with real people, I think, like with the book, the same, all of these same conversations we're having or arguments we're making, applies to a book as well and, like we said, in fact the synergy of both of them together it is even better. But yeah, this idea of a more realistic expectation on what success looks like and what is a good, realistic return, it's very easy to take the case that a podcast is a valuable, valuable thing to do. \n\nMike: I would say so simply, and I mean, you know, as a podcast producer, to people like, if I'm working with someone, right, it's obviously a long-term relationship, and with long-term relationship comes the long-term cost, and I know that and they know that and everybody knows that right. So there's producers out there who understand that, oh, this is a long-term thing, right, that is where it's the producer's job to take someone after six months and go hey man, you know what, this podcast may not be a good idea for you, it may not be the best idea. Say, you're doing something and not only the numbers are bad, but maybe they're not the best podcaster, they have low energy, they clearly don't want to show up. It's also producer's job to be like hey man, I love the ongoing price structure, but I got to tell you this probably isn't helping you as much as it should be. \n\nSo I would caveat yes, it is a long-term thing, but as a producer and also as a host, kind of have to have that buffer of like is this actually working? Hopefully I'm working with someone that has my best as the host, my best interest in mind as a producer. You got to have the show in mind as well, because it's very easy to go. Oh man, I got this guy on the hook for a year, for two years. You have to also have a governance process of. Is this the best thing that this person could be doing? \n\nBecause at the end of the day, it's a marketing effort. Really it's just a fun marketing effort. \n\nStuart: And that actually is a great point, as people are comparing who they could be working with, given that there's choice the idea of picking someone to work with who sees it as a marketing effort and not sees it as an entertainment effort. They're not working with a producer who's excited about twiddling the knobs and getting the sound right and putting in a music bed and trying to NPR it to maybe win some awards. That's not as valuable as someone who sees it as a marketing tool and is telling you hey, listen these, looking back at the shows, these particular types of guests have had way more. They've been received much better than these other types. So maybe they've doubled down on that. \n\nOr I noticed that you're not sending the email out about the show. Do you really need to do that? Or here's some clips that we've extracted from the show, some sound bites from social media. Push those into the channel and have those as more market tools. So not all producers are created equal in terms of not only their skills and what they bring to it, but the positioning and the job of working, the outcome that you can be trying to get as a marketing effort as opposed to an entertainment product effort. \n\nMike: Right, and here's where everyone's going to turn off the podcast right now. Your first hundred episodes to be garbage anyway or your first 50 episodes are going to be bad anyway. So it doesn't matter if your audio is tight, it doesn't matter. You know, try to obviously make a good effort. \n\nThere's something to be said for making it look at least like you care a little bit, but you don't. You can't get too caught up in like man. I got to have this particular mic. I got to use this one. I got to have this mic arm. I got to make the background look. Yes, make a solid effort. Obviously, make it look like you're putting life into it, but once again everyone's hitting the stop button. Your first 50 episodes at least are not going to be that fantastic. And that's just. The sky's blue, the grass is green. It just is what it is. And if you can get over that you'll have. \n\nIf you can get, if you can understand that you will have a lot more success than thinking I need the five hundred dollar mic, I need the ten thousand dollar set. It'll be a lot easier of a process as we get going. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and that's it. I mean, you see, we see it with the book business, our competitors out. There's a number of competitors out there who are very prerative. They're very high prices and for the job of work, of what someone has out of the marketing tour, that's a big long return on the investment. If you're spending thirty thousand dollars on a project as opposed to three thousand. \n\nAnd yeah, yeah the same with you. If someone's spending five grand on equipment just to even put the first show out there, that's a big hurdle to overcome before it's even moving. Before you even see anything, yeah, before you even see any type of anything. \n\nMike: you have a fifty thousand dollar set up and now you're getting angry because you're like oh, in a month, hey man, I've got all this stuff. Why is? \n\nStuart: it only a hundred downloads. \n\nMike: No, it's not going to knock and no one wants to sign me. How come? Well, hey, man, you got to get, get fifty on your belt and then we'll talk about it. Yeah, or you know what I mean? \n\nStuart: Good thing, I mean the whole marketing conversation around it makes the numbers make so much more sense. So so, understanding that, even if the downloads are zero and all those fifty episodes, the website content of having fifty hours worth of unique on topic content on the website, the fact that as someone goes back and listens to the fifty percent, they're entering something in there, seeing the credibility of fifty previous ones, whether or not they listen to it or not, as you try to invite guests or open doors, this credibility of body of work that you've created already, even if the quality is not where you want it to be, it's it has a very definite marketing benefit, even if it doesn't have an entertainment benefit, if the show was the product, it's positioning as a marketing tool just makes all of the numbers make so much more sense in a much easier and an accessible way for people. \n\nMike: Yeah, they want to know that you love it. So they go to your YouTube page and they go oh wow, he's got four hundred episodes Like I've never heard of it. But that's great. It's visual confirmation, right. \n\nIt's just always treating himself. I say this in the book because I think it's. It's. It rings true, but as a business, you should look at yourself as a media company first, but media company one, and then, whatever you're selling, one be right. You can do that and position yourself as a media company, which means you have all of the things. You have the YouTube set up. Everything is populated. You look like you care about your social presence. People are going to initially it's just by Osmosis go. Oh, they obviously care about their product and their way of doing things. Let's see their story, let's talk about their, or let's come into their ecosystem and see what they're about. \n\nStuart: I think, like I said, understanding that it demonstrates that you care, both the minimum amount that you care about the thing that you're doing, but also right about the subjects and willing to put it out there, it goes a long way. \n\nMike: Yeah. \n\nStuart: I would say to people as we start the shows that I will go for half an hour. \n\nMike: And then we just keep going. \n\nStuart: Yeah, we're about 15 minutes in, so people appreciate their time. I want to make sure that people can get access to you and the book and more about what you do. So what's a good place for people to go to find more? \n\nMike: You can come to the website. So right now, I'm wrapping up the book now, so it will be for free. It's free, by the way. Everyone was listening. I don't want to make money off it, whether you work with me or not, it's just good information to get people in the mindset of you don't have to be Joe Rogan, you can, just you can be you and do what you need to do, so you can go out. \n\nIt's talkaboutbookcom. The name of the book is. What Should I Talk About? The website is wwwtalkaboutbookcom. And then I'm a casual. You know I'm a casual user of social media. I'm not a big social media guy. My Instagram handle is Mike the Mike the dot shooter. As in like shooter. I have a website, wwwforbokecom. That's sort of an old portfolio If people want to check out my more creative stuff. And then my LinkedIn is just Mike Tussoni, t-a-s-o-n-e. You can find me there. But if anyone's listening, go to the website. You can find me a lot easier there. If it's podcast related, that's probably a better place to reach me. \n\nStuart: And I think that's about it. \n\nYeah Well, we'll make sure that we put links to your LinkedIn profile and the websites as well on the show notes so, as people are listening, they can just click into the podcast player and the link will be there. \n\nWe'll check it out on their website, but I highly recommend going across. \n\nI've obviously seen the book, the inside version of it, so well worth looking at if you've got any, even if the thought of having a podcast has entered your head, because it really does a great job of kind of getting over that first hurdle, as you mentioned. I don't know if you're going to be able to do that, but what do I talk about? So there's a lot of great advice and anecdotes and stories there with people who have kind of made that transition and, as I said, the link will be in the website link will be in the show notes so people can check out you and the services we offer and kind of follow up the conversation there. But, mike, it's been a pleasure, really good, to talk about this for hours more. It'll be interesting to get back on the show, maybe give it six months or so and see how the book lands and then how you've been using it and what that's translated to in terms of more conversations, that we can follow up with people and check them back in on the progress. \n\nMike: Perfect. Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. \n\nStuart: Fantastic Cheers, Mike. I appreciate it. Everyone thanks for listening, as always. As I say, check out the show notes and we will catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Mike Tassone, a seasoned producer and editor with over a decade of experience in content creation, about his new book "But What Should I Talk About?'
\n\nMike has a diverse content creation background, and his current podcasting business always starts with the same question from clients... But what should I talk about? His book is the perfect example of addressing client questions head-on & using it to start conversations with people he can really help.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about this approach and exploring the synergy between podcasting and book marketing, especially how they support each other in the journey to engage and keep potential leads engaged until they are ready to take the next step.
\n\nMike's approach is in tune with ours, and the real win for the majority of business owners is not, how many listeners the show gets, but the opportunity to use if for all the authority, engagement, and door opening opprotunities it provides.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/148
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nMike: buddy, awesome Thanks for having me today. It's a pleasure.
\n\nStuart: It's a pleasure. This is going to be an interesting show because we've often talked about before this idea that a book is a fantastic lead captures, all that part of the beginning of the funnel, but then people struggle a little bit in the long term. Engagement with people, and therefore podcasts, have come up as a conversation in the past. Obviously, it's something that we're super excited about. We hear a lot of them across the group here, but this is something that you can help people with directly. So I'm really interested to get your take on the bridge between books and podcasts and then really how people can leverage the podcast opportunity into this idea of staying in front of people all the time. So let me start with a bit of background to introduce who you are and what the organization does.
\n\nMike: Perfect. So my name is Mike Tasone. I've been a producer shooter editor. I'm based in Toronto, ontario, but I've been, I've kind of been able to go all over North America. I've been Western Canada, bahamas, all kind of encompassing the left side of the map, if you're looking at it out of map. So producer shooter editor, which means like the internet calls it it's a funny word but the internet calls it a predator. So, like I said, producer shooter, editor, and that means I've just kind of taught myself over the years how to shoot, how to edit, how to produce, how to create content. My experience spans about a decade. I started doing it. I was always a hobbyist. So since I was like seven or eight, my dad always showed up to birthday parties with the big RCA. You know the boombox camera.
\n\nAnd you know, with the VHS tapes and he had a little Fred Flintstone sticker on it. So it was, and I had like an obsession with cameras for as long as I can remember. But I was also a big sports guy, played hockey, football, everything kind of growing up. So those two loves were kind of like this for a really long time. And then when I got to Toronto I'm from a really small town in Northern Ontario close to St Marie, really rough went like a lot like those Philly winters, really rough winters. You know some hearty people will call them real in Northern Ontario, type, you know, type people.
\n\nAnd so when I moved to Toronto, it created this whole world. There was this entire new world that I just had no idea. I was used to, you know, going to football practice and then coming home making stupid little videos with my buddies. And then you get to Toronto and it was about 2010. And there was a little bit of an industry here which you can make money doing it. And I was pretty naive, I had no idea how to you know the internet remember Instagram was still like a photo sharing app, no tick tock. Youtube was still kind of you know, working itself out. So there was a lot of work in nightclub photography, which is a hilarious. You know, I don't even think it exists anymore.
\n\nStuart: I would call it as a niche. Yeah, he was that. The promoters, the club owners, were using that as their mock. The punters wanted that picture taken.
\n\nMike: No, it was. So what would happen is you would get hired to come in and do like a photo album or make a video of a DJ at a club, Right and yeah, and I had no idea, I just thought, oh, you're getting paid to play with your camera. We're cool, I'm all right with that. I'm trying to put myself through. I'm make money on the weekends, you know, supplements, some cash for those ever important textbooks that I may or may not have bought.
\n\nSo I did that for about two or three years and that led me to some really cool spots. I was able to cover some really cool I mean, I'm not a big electronic music fan but, like I was able to cover a lot of really cool DJs that now are mega huge, that back in the day they were just, you know, at silly little nightclubs. But that got really boring really quick because it was the same it's the same thing over and over again, right, but the type of edits I was doing. It was really high, intense. You know I had it. I developed a skill set that was different than a lot of editors and a lot of shooters right.
\n\nStuart: It wasn't the best niche because of the way that you kind of came up in my environment. It was very kind of your style match there Like EDM type.
\n\nMike: Yeah, very, you know big crazy, you know edits that kind of made no sense, but they were loud and they looked sexy, and so so I played football at my university and when I stopped playing, the head coach a couple of years later had, you know, had approached the, I guess, the media department and he wanted to make like a I don't know if you've heard of the series hard knocks.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nMike: Yeah, he wanted something like that and me being an alumni of the team, sort of. I mean, I was around, I was.
\n\nStuart: Overconnection and need the background.
\n\nMike: Yeah, a little bit of a connection there with the background and knowing the sport inside and out. So I was like, well, I've got the skill set. I showed them my portfolio. It's not exactly sports, but I know sports in it inside and out. Right, created my own job at the school for three years. I followed the football team around. After that it kind of once again starving artists type stuff. I landed a contract at a bank here, kind of just making bank videos, and then the big my Mount Everest was. I got a job as a producer, shooter and editor at Canada's number one sports broadcasting company.
\n\nStuart: So it would be like our.
\n\nMike: ESPN and I was the first position of their kind. I shot, edited, whatever. And that's when I really I mean, I covered the Raptors when they won the first championship here in Canada, which was a highlight of my life. I have the thing right here, that's my media pass, like that was it for me, right? And then to bring it back, that's when I started getting introduced to podcasting and I was involved with three really big shows that were national number ones, number twos, you know, top 10, top fives.
\n\nAnd that's when I sort of under then COVID hit and the work from home phenomenon started happening and I've realized, wow, I can do podcasts from anywhere and this is a really cool thing to kind of be involved with. So, with you know, I got taught by some really good producers and then after that I started kind of going off of my own and that's sort of where I am now. I'm taking this experience and I created podcasts for a few people and it's kind of getting going now and but when you have that big time experience, you want to, like you know, help people out and make the most of it Right, particularly when you see that there's a desire out there.
\n\nStuart: people want to do this and want to get there, but sometimes it's just the technical steps or the hurdles to get started that hold on the back. As we kind of sat here with knowledge in our heads. We just want to share it as much as possible.
\n\nMike: You want to share it. It's funny because I've, over the last, it's been really picking up over the last three years. Obviously, right, everyone's like I need to get out there. And the types of conversations everyone's always afraid to just start it. That's number one. It's number one. Everyone's just afraid to start. And then they're afraid to start and they have no idea what to talk about. So that's where the book kind of thing came from. Or I'm like well, everyone keeps saying the same sentence what do I talk about? So I go well, let's dig into that. And then you know, through experiences and all that sort of, how I landed with this idea to do the do the book.
\n\nStuart: So who are the target audience for? Is it mainly business owners or personalities or people who've got like a passion project? Is it one particular niche or is it just the niche is people who are interested in broadcasting?
\n\nMike: I personally found that businesses can. There's a return not immediately, but there's a better opportunity for a return for a business to start something like this. Because I think if you're a personality, you know it's not that you can't, everyone can and it's a beautiful medium to do. But unless the goal is to become a comedian or a podcast, or you know the divorce lawyer that knows everything and you're the authority in the space, it's obviously incredibly difficult. It's like becoming a pro athlete. It's the same kind of thing, right.
\n\nBut with businesses, the point isn't necessarily to have 10 million downloads. The point isn't necessarily to make money doing the podcast. The point, if you have a business, you already have an audience. You already have a bunch of people that like your product, like your service. So the point of it for a business is to create a perpetuating machine that you can just get your content out to people and speak to people directly. I don't think people understand how important it is to touch their audience directly. Right, we're doing. You know we have the newsletters and all that, which is great. That's what you should turn the podcast into. But the point of the podcast isn't to make money on the podcast. It's another marketing effort.
\n\nStuart: And trying to get people to understand that.
\n\nAnd it's the same conversation as with the books, as the assets themselves. It's the conversation and the opportunity to, as you say, talk directly to the person who's reading it. That's where the real opportunity comes in. Nothing to do with book sales or podcast downloads or the likelihood of getting advertising revenue from it. All of these things are secondary. If the main job of work is keeping engaged to people who are going to become your clients and give you the hard to get money for the work that you actually do not get paid for, the advertising, for the opportunity to keep in conversation with people that idea Is that something that more people are starting to catch on to? It's not such a heavy lift to get people to understand, or is it still? People come and start the conversation with you thinking that this is advertising wherever you'll make money from the podcast itself and you've really got to educate them into their bigger opportunities.
\n\nMike: All of the conversations are trying to get people to understand what their podcast is going to look like. Because, if you think about it, the only podcasts that we know of are the super successful ones. I don't even want to say the names, because it's podcast. It's a podcast full pop. To say the names of the big dogs, right, but everybody just knows the famous ones and the big ones.
\n\nSo when I say to an owner of a car dealership or a real estate agent, oh, a podcast would be a great idea, they seem to not understand. Well, what would I bring? What would my podcast even look like? I only know of XYZ podcasts. So what would mine even look like? It's like well, the point is, if you're a real estate agent, you're a highly localized, that's a highly localized sector for you, especially if you're a real estate agent. So if you show up as the authority in the space in your area by talking about it every day, by giving people tips, tricks, interest rate, you know mortgage, whatever people are going to come to you when it's time to get a mortgage, because they know, oh, this guy talks about it every day. I'm going to go to. I'm going to go to Stuart. Stuart talks about mortgages every day. Why wouldn't I go to him when it's time to get him Right, so that it's trying to get people to understand? You don't have to hop on and talk about nothing. Your podcast 10 minutes, right? It doesn't?
\n\nStuart: that is. It's such an interesting point, isn't it? Because when you think about one of the traditional broadcast type of where the show is the product, they have to be a certain length and the delivery is the entertainment within the product itself, within the show, because the show is the product, the product is the show. If the show is the excuse to share something of value, but broadly stay in touch and give people a clear call to action of how they can engage more, take that next step, the level of content. It takes the pressure off so much because you're not trying to produce something that's entertaining.
\n\nSo right, hopefully it is entertaining so right turned off by it, but it doesn't have to be. It just takes away a whole level of pressure. We had an example with. It was a real estate example which brings to mind. So part of the real estate education piece that we teach in that space is this idea of a flagship broadcast, a regular communication, and for real estate, an easy way of doing it is what we call a market watch report. So just every week talk about what's come on the market this week and just bring some engagement to as the market's changing. So this idea of market watch. So there was one real estate we worked with I mean over 10 years now, up in the northeast, up by main, manchester, boston. So he had been sending out the market watch every week. He decided I'm going to purchase the list Anyone who hasn't responded or opened it or whatever criteria we had not anyone who hasn't done that in two years, I'm going to take them off the list.
\n\nI'm just going to send to the people who have engaged In completely pointless why you'd make him some of the necessary judgment anyway.
\n\nAnd then about six months later got a call from a picked up a voicemail and he was at one of our events and played the voicemail and it was well read Hi, it's Bob here. I've been on your list for five or six years but I guess something must have happened with my email. Anyway I stopped receiving it. I had to phone around a couple of other agents in town to get your number, but anyway I've got it now. Hopefully this is you. Give me a call. I've got two beach properties to list.
\n\nMike: Oh, wow, so okay.
\n\nStuart: The properties were worth like $4 million across the two off and one of them was like how long was the site? The guy had to call other agents. I can imagine how that called went. Hi, it's Bobby. I'm looking to list my two beach properties. Do you have Kenny's phone number?
\n\nMike: Yeah, I want this other guy, not you. I want this other guy, yeah.
\n\nStuart: And then for Kenny to purge that list, thinking that someone wasn't engaged. But to bring it back to your point and the conversation we're having here, I can call it already when they're ready, and our job is to stay engaged with them until that point is for them. We can't tell when it is. They're not going to send us a letter ahead of time saying I'm going to be ready in a month or two.
\n\nWe just need to keep being there, and it's a challenge as business owners Because you've got the day-to-day business to do. But doing a podcast where, if you've been in business for any length of time, it's easy to talk about your subject, you can bridge it into points of interest if you feel we need to do that as well. But this opportunity to create weekly or fortnightly unique content that can then be, which can multiplied in a whole host of other ways, it's by far the easiest and highest value thing that you can do, and even if no one ever listens to it, it doesn't matter because you're still an opportunity.
\n\nMike: It doesn't, and that's another funny thing. It's funny that you say that because it doesn't matter really if anyone's really listening to it, because you're not trying to be a top five podcast, you're just trying to constantly have your hands out there and say listen, I'm here if you need right and if you want to buy that house, I'm here. If you want to join my gym, I'm here. Today we're going to talk about nutrition, but if you want to join, we're also here. And I mean I'd like to say that people are starting to come around to that. I'm still.
\n\nThere's still people out there that are just like well, who's going to listen? And they want to get the ROI and get into the stats and the minutia. I understand ROI and I understand investment and people want to get the return. But when you have something like that, that you can piece one episode let's say you do for 20, I think I say this in the book but if you have a 20 minute episode, that's potentially 21 minute pieces of content that you can fire off and that's almost a month's worth of stuff that you just have to sit down and do once for 20 minutes and talk about something you love or like, at least right.
\n\nSo it's very valuable. But I think people are still looking at the vanity metrics, the stuff that doesn't really matter. But if you can, if you just get out, get outside of that and understand you're just constantly out there massaging your audience. That's where the juices are with a podcast.
\n\nStuart: The opportunities as well. So we talked about this in the book sense that there's a lot of additional value from having a book, this kind of societal value that's placed on the book as a product, which is maybe more than it deserves knowing how the, the sausage is actually made.
\n\nIt's not rocket science, but there's a lot of presence from it, and I think the same goes for podcasts in the sense that it gives you a way to open doors with people that you wouldn't otherwise have opportunity to talk with. So if you are looking at establishing yourself as a stick with a real estate example because it's easy for everyone to conceptualize as a realtor if you were trying to talk to the, to talk to the planning committee, to talk to the restaurant owners, to position yourself as the not even so much as a trusted expert, but as the person who's bringing the trusted experts to the audience, opening those doors and having those conversations with people outside of podcasts is going to be a little bit tricky because people are busy. There's an element of people wanting to be guests on podcasts. There's an element of kind of people love being guests.
\n\nYeah, tickles the parts of them, the ego part of them, that allows them to just turn up and take some pressure off and turn up as the expert and be presented that way, but you as the host being the person who's doing that, connecting quite a different story than trying to recreate that same amount of energy and content and goodwill through any other medium. I mean trying to write that type of stuff or go out and video it like a news news segment. All of that stuff is much more difficult than in a podcast. And then, of course, we get into the technological advances over the last 12 months of the distribution side of things. So the ability to create it in the first place is somewhat easier. Obviously, there's a slide in the scale there, but what you can do with it once it's created and people looking for a business based ROI, I mean, where else, like you say, would you be able to create 20 individual pieces of content from one seed piece? And that's just the first blush like loan code drilling down even further.
\n\nMike: So yeah, this side sorry yeah, just on that point, because that's a great point you just made and it's not even the audio side of just having the chunk. It's like you can turn that into your. If you're a business owner, you know how important your email list is.
\n\nThat's lifeblood for a lot of business owners, right, being able to tell the people that love you directly. Now, those 21-minute shorts yeah, that covers your TikTok and your Instagram and all that kind of stuff. But let's not forget, you can create an episode into a newsletter, which I think is we. I ran a podcast with I've talked about in the book, but I ran a podcast with a couple of guys who turned every episode into a newsletter and it was more in depth and the author of the newsletter drove in a little harder. You know what we can only cover in an hour. He really condensed it in, so, but it was about the episode as well. It was taken from the episode.
\n\nAnd then let's say you know, on a podcast you can only talk for so long. You can even turn that into a blog. And now you got another thing and throw that up on your website. So it's a great point that it's so juicy in what you can plug it into. It's just getting over the hump of like you don't have to be the next superstar comedian to start a podcast. You don't have to be. You just kind of have to be a brand that loves what you've got going on and throw a couple layers deep.
\n\nStuart: I'm passionate for the subject. It's so interesting as well because once you separate the idea from okay, I've got to be. I'm competing with Joe Rogan, yeah.
\n\nMike: Oh, you said the bit, you said the word, you said the word you said, the demons all come down again.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, once you separate that, it's like books. I mean, no one's suggesting that it makes sense for a business owner to think that the only benefit they'll get from a book is competing with Tom Clancy or JK Rowling or Steve Walsh. I mean, it's the same delivery mechanism and you get some of the shined light from the medium, but the actual thing itself is completely different. One of the other things I like about the podcast idea and it ties in with the newsletter follow up, the mentions is that it ties in with books so well. So this idea of this kind of synergy, of having all of the individual assets that tie together into something much bigger. Again, sticking with a real estate example, you can imagine the real estate. What was the name of the little tenure from?
\n\nSusay Marie, so you can imagine being a real estate in Susay Marie and having the show that talks about living in Susay Marie and we're doing a highlight on the school and highlight on restaurants and there's a planning committee development going on over here. So bringing all of the local knowledge but then having the book that ties in with it, the living in Susay Marie, the guides living in Susay Marie, so on the podcast, then you can. A call to action on the podcast would be to get the book and then the newsletter or the blog post or everything that's created downstream links back to those two assets as their way to find out more. We often talk about the call to action on the back of the book covering the three groups of people the IHIC is one of the best and the people who are still in the gathering phase, the people who are interested to move forward, but aren't quite yet ready to reach out and engage you fully.
\n\nAnd then those people are ready to go now.
\n\nThree assets of the podcast being the perfect way of just gathering more information and passively following along with the journey until you're ready to move to the next stage. And then the book is a way of generating a little bit more interest or habit as the leading into the overall world and then the easy way to get started. It's such a collective, as I said, the synergy of collected assets bringing together and your book. Then, I guess what do I talk about? This first question that everyone's got that really solving the problem and getting people to think about it in a different way. That ties together perfectly with this kind of synergistic idea. Once you know, once you accept this idea of what you can talk about and that is relatively open-ended, with a small amount of effort up front to think about it, then the world just opens up. That was a long way of getting to the next stage.
\n\nMike: Yeah, yeah, a long way of getting to the next stage.
\n\nStuart: This idea of bridging people into okay, what do I talk about? And then helping them think about that slightly bigger picture. Is that relatively formulaic, in that there's some things that anyone can think about, or is it very much? People have to think about it case by case.
\n\nMike: I got this example I believe I think it was Jim Rohn and he was in one of these marketing books. I forget. This stuff just pops up and it sticks in the brain. But he was talking about the pinwheel of marketing. So the pinwheel of marketing looks a little bit. Obviously it's not podcasting, but I was looking at it going.
\n\nWell, this kind of works with a podcast, because if you think of it like a pinwheel, the middle of the pinwheel is the thing you're trying to sell. That's the thing that you're selling, whether it's gym memberships, whether it's houses, whatever. The core competency of your business is the middle of that pinwheel. That's why you're in business, right, and Jim can't run without membership. You need membership dollars, you need someone to keep the lights on right. But then the ancillary thing is on top of it, where you get your momentum, because momentum in a podcast is more important than probably anything. Everyone fades it's a pod fading thing. Three months, everyone, 90% of them, go away, like because you get bored, you get tired, you go. Why aren't I famous yet? Why isn't Spotify here? It's, you know what I mean. So you need that momentum. So when you start adding so I sell memberships, well, it's a gym. So who comes to my gym? Well, people who are into nutrition, people who are into mental health, people who are into wellness.
\n\nWhen you think of a couple layers deep, you can start thinking about how I can get that pinwheel spinning so at least I get some momentum. So you have five topics and maybe you're on a weekly schedule. Now you have one topic every week for at least five weeks. That's about two months. That's about two months of podcasting that you can get through. You keep doing that enough times. Well then you're spinning and you're spinning and you're spinning, and then at least you can get up to cruising altitude and you can be consistent, because everybody quits when they don't want it to slog, and it will be a slog. It's always going to be a slog, but if we can just get people to that three month mark of like I've been doing this for three months, it's now part of my. So let's say, you're a manager and you do weekly meetings, it's now part. It's that ingrained into my habit.
\n\nThe habit is formed and now you're just going to keep doing it and then you kind of don't care, because then you start going well, I'm having fun, so who cares? I'm having fun now. And maybe a six months down the road someone goes I really love that podcast, you do. I'm in the market to buy an apartment building you were talking something about. I know in the States there's like FHA loans and things like that. You were talking about that. You know, let's do some business right. It's that it's. I say it's that simple, it's not that simple.
\n\nStuart: But it's right.
\n\nMike: I think I say in the book like it's a simple execution wrapped in kind of a convoluted marketing effort. But if you can get your habits you know good habits built, then it's a self perpetuating machine that will keep going and going as long as you have energy for it.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that model. Actually it's a great way of thinking about it as well, because I think, thinking about a year's worth of podcasts of what we're going to talk about, this, like 50 new episodes that seems like a lot, but if you can break it down, so I love the idea that you were talking about there, the gym has four or five key components.
\n\nMike: Yeah.
\n\nStuart: That's only 12 in a year 12 nutrition podcasts, 12 fitness bodybuilding, 12 weight loss 12 case studies, client transformation stories.
\n\nThat's much more achievable and not such a daunting prospect going into it. Once you start breaking it down and again, I'm a big fan of kind of like systems and frameworks and just defining the model and then just having to repeat it. Once you've got that broken down, then the people on the other end start getting used to what they're listening to. The model becomes familiar. There's an expectation of a familiarity of what they're about to expect and get from you, and then backing that up with the emails that have been sent out relating back to the shows, taking those chunks out and here's where you can go and find more. It just breaks it down into each piece. Being so much more by its side is then trying to visualize the whole kind of podcast marketing success.
\n\nMike: And people get freaked out when, oh man, I've got to do all of this stuff. And, yes, you will eventually have to do talk the Instagram, the shorts, the YouTube shorts. You will eventually have to do that. But if you can get into a groove of rotating your topics and then what happens is you'll start to get good at rotating your topics and you'll slide in maybe a special episode or you'll in the gym example I gave in the book I was talking about how like a gym has you know this particular gym I was thinking of when I was writing?
\n\nIt has about 400 members. Well, if you take all of their stories, that's 400 episodes that you can talk about and people will appreciate. Someone in there will have the same story as maybe 50 other people. Oh, you know what? I was a you know what? When I was younger I was a great athlete and then I just fell out of shape. But then I found the gym and you know the guys at the gym are so great. Well, there's probably 50 people out there that might have that same story. Oh, I remember when I used to. You know bench 260, whatever. I want to get back into it Now. You're the gym with the cool podcast that supports its owners or supports its members, and now you have this thing going again, right?
\n\nStuart: no-transcript and it makes it so much more crystal. Like you were saying before, it's a connection with the audience. It's difficult to achieve through any other medium and if you can do it in a way that's sustainable and manageable, it's. We were on the show a few a couple of months ago now. We were with Paul Ross. He was a podiatrist, so he wrote he's written a couple of books actually, but one of them was called my Damn Toe Hood. So he was saying that people will come in and they're excited to see him because he's the person that wrote the books.
\n\nThere's an element of connection and celebrity that's associated with it, and the same with podcasts. I listen to, I consume quite a lot of podcasts and there's definitely a feeling of knowing. It's a very one-sided relationship, but there's definitely a feeling of knowing the people. I mean we can get it with this show. People will come on board as clients, having listened to and done with the shows, and know the frameworks that we talk about. So not only is there a personal connection there, but they're also educated customers in the sense of they're on board because they resonate with the way that we do it. You're right.
\n\nIn a specific way and it just makes the whole downstream connections and seamlessness of the rest of the relationship so much smoother, which wouldn't have happened without booking the podcast.
\n\nMike: Right, it's cool because, like you can have, you can line up 10 other producers, 10 other shooters, 10 other editors, 10 other podcast guys, and they'll give you their own story or template and how they do it. And they're going to sit there and say I'm the, mine's the best because we get you to 10,000. Listen, what, like at some point, it's all commodity, it's whatever at some point. Right, you go with the person at this point because there's so many. I mean, I think I said there's about 2 million active podcasts right now, which isn't even that many If you consider there's like I don't know 10 billion websites, but there's 2 million active podcasts.
\n\nLike there's a lot of room there to to mess around and there's a lot of room to experiment. And when you realize what the execution of a podcast like you can only do it so many ways, you really can only flip on the mic, you can really only do. Like you can only do it so many ways. Nowadays, it's who's going to climb the mountain with you, who's the producer or the host or your social team, who's going to say you know what, we're going to put in one to three years and we're just going to go and we're going to see what happens. Like that's what you're looking for, more so now. A couple of years ago you were looking for who's the hackier guy who can hack the algorithm. If we post on Wednesdays at 2pm, we get more. You know what like that now I think it's irrelevant now, because it's irrelevant now.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such a move on space and, for the most, it's like SEO to a certain degree. Yes, there is some. There's some things that you can do wrong which would damage it.
\n\nMike: Sure.
\n\nStuart: But for the most part there's not that much that you can do. Extra that moves the needle a massive amount, unless you're willing to just bubble down completely down that route and really go very hard and then you can move the needle at the top end. But that thick middle of not doing anything wrong, a thick middle of we're all in the same ballpark and then it's expensive up at the top, like you say, that middle is where things naturally whether that bell curve type diagram it's that's where the thick middle is. And now you're not looking for tricks and tips, Now you're looking for how does this solicit can tie in with whatever else I'm doing and how much?
\n\ntime I've got and the personality and the finding the people who you want to work with. It's not just one person you could work with. You could work with a number of people.
\n\nMike: So you could work with many.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, so find the person that you resonate with the best and really enjoy the process.
\n\nMike: And that's the like if you could sit every business owner down and go. One rule of podcasting you have to enjoy this. This has to be like a fun marketing effort that you're doing to get your business out, to get your whatever out to the world and have some fun with it. If you don't like this, if this doesn't, if this isn't enjoyable to you, don't do it, because it's going to be brutal. It's going to be like I mean these, a lot of business owners. You've started something from nothing and you've started a business. It's the use that muscle with the podcast. If you can't connect that and you're you know you're pissed off after two months and you're like oh man, like 10 listens it's and then you want to quit doing it and you know how there's more of those people than people who are actually doing it. You're going to get frustrated, you're going to hate it, you're going to think it's useless. Why am? Why are we not making money off of it?
\n\nStuart: The mindset has to be a little bit different these days across the board, right, it's a great point, because it's not the right fit for everyone Like we can come on here and talk for three hours about podcasts and books and the time the pod just fly by.
\n\nBut if you're turning up to something that's a hassle, every time you're going to be looking for. Your brain, either consciously or subconsciously, is going to be looking for all of the reasons to quit and, I guess, not showing up missing a week. The download numbers aren't being what you want it to. No one's kind of reaching out and knocking on the door and giving you awards. All of those things are going to prove evidence to yourself that this isn't right, because you've already got that mindset.
\n\nMike: Right.
\n\nStuart: If you really love writing, you can't think of anything you'd rather do. Then just write. Don't try and force it into a podcast unless there's a passion there. Yeah, I think for most people it is the easiest way of getting seed content out there, because most business owners can talk about the thing that they're interested in and passionate about easier than anything else.
\n\nMike: Yeah, agreed, and I think it's a lot more genuine to coming from a business owner, let's say, because you are the guy, you're the one who created the business, you're the one who you're already making money on. You're making money doing something that you like or love or good at it's like, why not talk about it and get other people stoked on doing it as well? Right, that's, it's only natural.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, the other element to that is as well. It's surprising how no niche is too small, like when you start drilling into some of these random esoteric things that you even imagine had an audience. But in today's day and age there's a thousand people out there who are passionately engaged through it and you would be the person who kind of dominated that space because you're the person who's talking about it. I think as well in if you're of the mindset that this needs to be a top 10 podcast with 10,000 downloads every episode, that's a high bar to hit. But if you instead think, okay, this is my business or this is a part of my business, and I know that there's only 100 people out there in the world and only half of them ever listen to Pog, but if I'm talking to those 50 people, then that's success because that's who the audience is. It's not a comparative audience to something bigger. It's how much of the pie am I getting and engaging with Again, it just changes the dynamic so much.
\n\nMike: And also, too, like, think about this right, If you have I don't know, let's, we'll call it 400 listeners a month. Right, If you have 400 listeners a month, imagine how cool it would be if you went downtown Philly and every Friday at 4pm, 400 people showed up to listen to you talk about something.
\n\nAnd it's no matter what 400 people, you're not going to notice the next week. If 410 come and 30 come, you're just going to show them go. Wow, I got. Look at this crowd, I got 400 people every week. That's that right there in itself is like 400, you know, 410 million, sure, huge disparity, huge disparity.
\n\nStuart: It's so irrelevant to.
\n\nMike: But it's irrelevant.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think that's the. It's the blessing in the coercive where we are in technology and the access to markets. Like if you said 20 years ago that we could get you a full of 400 people, people would be ecstatic because they were. 20 years ago that volume was that was a decent number of people, but now, in a world where you just see headline numbers and Instagram, famous people and their followerships are kind of pushing people's faces that top tiny percentage is so disproportionately skewed to numbers and people's thinking of what success is to the long end of the spectrum.
\n\nYeah, I think. One interesting way of thinking about it, though, as you mentioned before, is this newslet. Right there, I think we are going to see 150 episodes in.
\n\nI'd be better at my technique, so I was going to make a very certain point. Then that's completely gone out of hand. I was going to talk oh, you were talking about the newslet, so this idea of return on investment. So with the books and the clients that we're talking to, with the podcast and the people that you're talking to, it's majoritably business owners with the main job of work of engaging more clients. There's some people on the edge that don't have to read, but the main chunk of these are the people who we're talking to.
\n\nAnd if you could say to someone if from having a conversation once a week with someone, it translated into three clients a year, would that be successful? And most people would probably say yes, because the majority of us are in slightly higher ticket. We're not in commodity businesses where it's very low volume, low cost, high volume, turn out and stuff. We're not selling candies at a checkout and just need volume. It's slightly higher. So three people a year. You would probably accept that if you were joining like a, not a, mentoring a community, a network.
\n\nYeah, yeah, networking. If you joined a local networking group in Toronto then and they said, well, you'll probably get an average three clients a year comfortably, you probably think that was successful. And a podcast is easier to do, it's more convenient, reach, far more legacy and longevity than something like that. Not so equal, but it's different. But this real expectation of the kind of softer benefits and not nothing to do with download numbers, but turning into real connections with real people, I think, like with the book, the same, all of these same conversations we're having or arguments we're making, applies to a book as well and, like we said, in fact the synergy of both of them together it is even better. But yeah, this idea of a more realistic expectation on what success looks like and what is a good, realistic return, it's very easy to take the case that a podcast is a valuable, valuable thing to do.
\n\nMike: I would say so simply, and I mean, you know, as a podcast producer, to people like, if I'm working with someone, right, it's obviously a long-term relationship, and with long-term relationship comes the long-term cost, and I know that and they know that and everybody knows that right. So there's producers out there who understand that, oh, this is a long-term thing, right, that is where it's the producer's job to take someone after six months and go hey man, you know what, this podcast may not be a good idea for you, it may not be the best idea. Say, you're doing something and not only the numbers are bad, but maybe they're not the best podcaster, they have low energy, they clearly don't want to show up. It's also producer's job to be like hey man, I love the ongoing price structure, but I got to tell you this probably isn't helping you as much as it should be.
\n\nSo I would caveat yes, it is a long-term thing, but as a producer and also as a host, kind of have to have that buffer of like is this actually working? Hopefully I'm working with someone that has my best as the host, my best interest in mind as a producer. You got to have the show in mind as well, because it's very easy to go. Oh man, I got this guy on the hook for a year, for two years. You have to also have a governance process of. Is this the best thing that this person could be doing?
\n\nBecause at the end of the day, it's a marketing effort. Really it's just a fun marketing effort.
\n\nStuart: And that actually is a great point, as people are comparing who they could be working with, given that there's choice the idea of picking someone to work with who sees it as a marketing effort and not sees it as an entertainment effort. They're not working with a producer who's excited about twiddling the knobs and getting the sound right and putting in a music bed and trying to NPR it to maybe win some awards. That's not as valuable as someone who sees it as a marketing tool and is telling you hey, listen these, looking back at the shows, these particular types of guests have had way more. They've been received much better than these other types. So maybe they've doubled down on that.
\n\nOr I noticed that you're not sending the email out about the show. Do you really need to do that? Or here's some clips that we've extracted from the show, some sound bites from social media. Push those into the channel and have those as more market tools. So not all producers are created equal in terms of not only their skills and what they bring to it, but the positioning and the job of working, the outcome that you can be trying to get as a marketing effort as opposed to an entertainment product effort.
\n\nMike: Right, and here's where everyone's going to turn off the podcast right now. Your first hundred episodes to be garbage anyway or your first 50 episodes are going to be bad anyway. So it doesn't matter if your audio is tight, it doesn't matter. You know, try to obviously make a good effort.
\n\nThere's something to be said for making it look at least like you care a little bit, but you don't. You can't get too caught up in like man. I got to have this particular mic. I got to use this one. I got to have this mic arm. I got to make the background look. Yes, make a solid effort. Obviously, make it look like you're putting life into it, but once again everyone's hitting the stop button. Your first 50 episodes at least are not going to be that fantastic. And that's just. The sky's blue, the grass is green. It just is what it is. And if you can get over that you'll have.
\n\nIf you can get, if you can understand that you will have a lot more success than thinking I need the five hundred dollar mic, I need the ten thousand dollar set. It'll be a lot easier of a process as we get going.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and that's it. I mean, you see, we see it with the book business, our competitors out. There's a number of competitors out there who are very prerative. They're very high prices and for the job of work, of what someone has out of the marketing tour, that's a big long return on the investment. If you're spending thirty thousand dollars on a project as opposed to three thousand.
\n\nAnd yeah, yeah the same with you. If someone's spending five grand on equipment just to even put the first show out there, that's a big hurdle to overcome before it's even moving. Before you even see anything, yeah, before you even see any type of anything.
\n\nMike: you have a fifty thousand dollar set up and now you're getting angry because you're like oh, in a month, hey man, I've got all this stuff. Why is?
\n\nStuart: it only a hundred downloads.
\n\nMike: No, it's not going to knock and no one wants to sign me. How come? Well, hey, man, you got to get, get fifty on your belt and then we'll talk about it. Yeah, or you know what I mean?
\n\nStuart: Good thing, I mean the whole marketing conversation around it makes the numbers make so much more sense. So so, understanding that, even if the downloads are zero and all those fifty episodes, the website content of having fifty hours worth of unique on topic content on the website, the fact that as someone goes back and listens to the fifty percent, they're entering something in there, seeing the credibility of fifty previous ones, whether or not they listen to it or not, as you try to invite guests or open doors, this credibility of body of work that you've created already, even if the quality is not where you want it to be, it's it has a very definite marketing benefit, even if it doesn't have an entertainment benefit, if the show was the product, it's positioning as a marketing tool just makes all of the numbers make so much more sense in a much easier and an accessible way for people.
\n\nMike: Yeah, they want to know that you love it. So they go to your YouTube page and they go oh wow, he's got four hundred episodes Like I've never heard of it. But that's great. It's visual confirmation, right.
\n\nIt's just always treating himself. I say this in the book because I think it's. It's. It rings true, but as a business, you should look at yourself as a media company first, but media company one, and then, whatever you're selling, one be right. You can do that and position yourself as a media company, which means you have all of the things. You have the YouTube set up. Everything is populated. You look like you care about your social presence. People are going to initially it's just by Osmosis go. Oh, they obviously care about their product and their way of doing things. Let's see their story, let's talk about their, or let's come into their ecosystem and see what they're about.
\n\nStuart: I think, like I said, understanding that it demonstrates that you care, both the minimum amount that you care about the thing that you're doing, but also right about the subjects and willing to put it out there, it goes a long way.
\n\nMike: Yeah.
\n\nStuart: I would say to people as we start the shows that I will go for half an hour.
\n\nMike: And then we just keep going.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, we're about 15 minutes in, so people appreciate their time. I want to make sure that people can get access to you and the book and more about what you do. So what's a good place for people to go to find more?
\n\nMike: You can come to the website. So right now, I'm wrapping up the book now, so it will be for free. It's free, by the way. Everyone was listening. I don't want to make money off it, whether you work with me or not, it's just good information to get people in the mindset of you don't have to be Joe Rogan, you can, just you can be you and do what you need to do, so you can go out.
\n\nIt's talkaboutbookcom. The name of the book is. What Should I Talk About? The website is wwwtalkaboutbookcom. And then I'm a casual. You know I'm a casual user of social media. I'm not a big social media guy. My Instagram handle is Mike the Mike the dot shooter. As in like shooter. I have a website, wwwforbokecom. That's sort of an old portfolio If people want to check out my more creative stuff. And then my LinkedIn is just Mike Tussoni, t-a-s-o-n-e. You can find me there. But if anyone's listening, go to the website. You can find me a lot easier there. If it's podcast related, that's probably a better place to reach me.
\n\nStuart: And I think that's about it.
\n\nYeah Well, we'll make sure that we put links to your LinkedIn profile and the websites as well on the show notes so, as people are listening, they can just click into the podcast player and the link will be there.
\n\nWe'll check it out on their website, but I highly recommend going across.
\n\nI've obviously seen the book, the inside version of it, so well worth looking at if you've got any, even if the thought of having a podcast has entered your head, because it really does a great job of kind of getting over that first hurdle, as you mentioned. I don't know if you're going to be able to do that, but what do I talk about? So there's a lot of great advice and anecdotes and stories there with people who have kind of made that transition and, as I said, the link will be in the website link will be in the show notes so people can check out you and the services we offer and kind of follow up the conversation there. But, mike, it's been a pleasure, really good, to talk about this for hours more. It'll be interesting to get back on the show, maybe give it six months or so and see how the book lands and then how you've been using it and what that's translated to in terms of more conversations, that we can follow up with people and check them back in on the progress.
\n\nMike: Perfect. Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic Cheers, Mike. I appreciate it. Everyone thanks for listening, as always. As I say, check out the show notes and we will catch you in the next one.
","summary":"In today's episode of the Book More Show, I talk with Mike Tassone, a seasoned producer, shooter, and editor with over a decade of experience in content creation. \r\n\r\nMike shares insightful stories from his diverse career across industries and offers valuable tips for using podcasts to engage audiences long-term. \r\n\r\nWe also explore the synergy between podcasting and book marketing, noting how building good habits, as with Jim Rohn's pinwheel approach, can establish a self-sustaining podcast. \r\n\r\nIn wrapping up, we discuss the value of podcasting for business owners and the importance of realistic expectations, quality work, and leveraging available tools to connect with listeners. \r\n\r\n","date_published":"2023-10-01T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/d913e543-3da3-4863-bc56-444b1c3f0519.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":34275695,"duration_in_seconds":2846}]},{"id":"c2a68b87-eb54-445e-80b4-dc00e0d2a61f","title":"Ep147: Empowering People with DeLayna & Leon Elliott","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/147","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we have a great conversation with DeLayna & Leon Elliott, authors of ' 'The Power of OneNess-Winning in Marriage and Money. ' and Relationship and financial advisors\n\nThis discussion is fascinating, especially if your business and passion align. As financial advisors, DeLayna and Leon help families secure their financial future, but they are also passionate relationship coaches. Their book combines their expertise in these fields and is the perfect way to start a conversation with the people they can best help.\n\nThey know that taboos around financial conversations cause many failing relationships, and their approach is to uncover a unique approach by interweaving financial literacy with conversation and intimate relationship elements to create a holistic approach that empowers their clients. \n\nHaving been in business for more than 20 years, they know their financial products are the perfect fit for most clients they speak to about relationship counseling. It removes selling pressure and becomes one of many issues people are excited to resolve.\n\nTheir book is the perfect tool at the top of the funnel to help them identify new clients and support even more referrals.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nDeLayna and Leon Elliott, relationship counselors and financial advisors, share their journey from middle school sweethearts to professional counselors.\nDeLayna shares her perspective on growing up in a single-parent household where her mother was the breadwinner, a reality for 74% of black families in their community.\nThe couple discusses their book, which helps couples in navigating difficult conversations about money, sex, intimacy, and communication.\n'The Power of OneNess', is a game-changing program that interweaves financial literacy with intimate relationship elements.\nThey talk about the book leating natrually to conversations they can offer solutions to through their finaicial advisor firm.\nThe aim of their unique approach is to dismantle the taboo around money talks in relationships and to empower couples with a holistic approach.\nThey emphasize the importance of financial literacy in relationships and discuss the benefits of life insurance.\nThe Elliotts share the joy and challenges they experienced in creating 'The Power of OneNess' and how reader stories have impacted them.\nThe Elliotts believe in empowering couples through education, and their book serves as a tool for couples to understand and navigate their finances together.\nThrough their work, they aim to create a generational impact, with the children of the couples they've helped reaching out to them for guidance as well.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nDeLayna Elliott - LinkedIn\nLeon Elliott - LinkedIn\nLeon & DeLayna\nWorld Fidelity Life\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/147\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today, super excited, I'm joined by DeLayna and Leon Elliott, authors who just wrapped up the book. We had a strategy call last week maybe, so I'm really excited about sharing some of their story with you. So guys, welcome to the podcast, great to have you here.\n\nDeLayna: Hi, it was good to be here. Thanks, Stuart. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Okay. this is going to be a great episode. I love your story so much. I'm really excited to share some of the background with people and then we'll obviously move into the book and how we plan on using it. I think this is going to be one of those examples where I always recommend that people kind of Head over to follow the links and follow the story, but for you guys particularly, because you've got such an established presence and the book ties in so nicely with that, this is going to be a really interesting story for people to follow along with and see how the book ties in with the business.\nSo with that in mind, why don't we start with a bit of background on what you guys do and, and the business and who it is that you work with. \n\nLeon: Yes, Stuart, again, we just want to thank you for allowing us to be on your program on your podcast and it means a lot to us to be here with you. When we very first got started, we chatted for a little bit.\nIt was just absolutely awesome. I think it went a little bit longer than you expected. \n\nStuart: I always apologize for people in check that they don't have a hard out because I sometimes. I think we said as, as we were talking, when I noticed that my voice gets really croaky, that's a sign I've been talking too long, but it's also a sign of the passion that you guys bring to it.\nSo yeah, excited to share this with people. \n\nLeon: we've actually been, working with couples. For many years, and we actually started doing like conferences and events with married couples. We also work with singles that want to be married. We did marriage counseling or coaching. for many years, our background is ministry, church, if you will.\nAnd, that's how we got started. DeLayna and I met, DeLayna and I met in, what they call now, I call it a junior high. I think they call it middle school now. And, when I saw her, Stuart, when I saw her in the, cafeteria that morning, it just, with that great smile, it just blew my mind.\nFrom that point, I started doing my thing, doing my sales pitch. And, but definitely we, we started, right after we got married, we had couples actually reaching out to us and we were like, wait a minute, we haven't even been married that long. And they were reaching out to us and asking us questions about our marriage.\nAnd, we were sharing with them, what we were. Doing and everybody was loving it. So we started doing the events years later, and they just worked. And, so what we wanted to do when we put the events together, we had put together what my wife calls a workbook.\nI call it a book to help guide us through and to help those couples to be guided through. And we would do is dealing with, Money, we were dealing with, sex or intimacy, and, we were dealing with, what's the other part of it? Communication, which is very important that you have that communication.\nand that's that's how we got started. \n\nStuart: And that's,I guess one thing I have to ask first is, DeLayna, do you remember the middle school experience in the same way? I've got visions of, I , I don't on know Spotlight on Leon as he's sauntering over . \n\nDeLayna: I was a, actually, I was a cheerleader, Stewart, so he forgot to, put that little plug in.\nSo I was in cheerleading uniform. but Leon was, he was really shy. we were outgoing and, bubbly. And we even have some classes together, but he was really shy. So I didn't really know that he had an interest until we started becoming friends. And then we joined a, we formed actually a singing group.\nYeah, my mom was like our director and, and so we started recruiting our friends and then we just clicked. we thought alike, we got along so great. And so we knew then as teenagers that we could be a couple. but it wasn't until after we graduated, that we got married right out We, both of us were in college and we decided that we were going to get married,\nAnd so then he went into the military and we got into the mortgage industry and that's where our financial background, came into when we were in Monterey, California. So back then though, like I said, he was so shy. I didn't really know that he was really interested until we became really good friends.\nAnd that's how it works. And we're still friends today. So definitely. \n\nStuart: My wife and I think some people know the story. We were friends in the last year of college back in the 90s, and then our past kind of went different ways and then we always loosely stayed in touch, but she was over here in the States and I was back in the UK.\nBut we reconnected when I was over in the States more with work, 10 years ago now. So that's Long burn of a friendship and the common communication that you have without the pressure of a relationship. I guess that helps in establishing some of the foundations that the other people then saw and were asking you questions.\nyou mentioned the mortgage business then, so you're financial advisors now and offer people the financial advice element as well, the relationships, the relationship counseling for want of a better term, did that come completely independently? Was that almost a pastime thing or was there a business interest in that right from the start?\nRight from the start. \n\nDeLayna: Okay, definitely. Yeah, right from the start. we knew we wanted to be professionals because I come from a single parent home, where my mother was the breadwinner and most, 74% of our community Stewart, are headed by black women that are the breadwinners.\nAnd so growing up with that. I knew that this was a passion for me. I saw my mother, she basically She was it, she was, ex military, she was in college and raising us at the same time. So with that was such a burning passion, for me to learn about money, to understand money.\nI watched her budget, prior to computers with shoe boxes and, organizing her money and her bills and paying her bills. And, we come in with all the paper. All over the bed, as she was organizing her finances. I'm like, what are you doing every month? and, and so watching her do that.\nand then she was so organized and then when computers came in, she automated everything. And when she passed in 2017, Stuart, all my sister and I had to do was grieve. Yes. Because mom had her life insurance, Yeah. Everything was organized. We, she passed on a Monday, Tuesday, we were in negotiations, with the funeral home by Saturday, she was buried.\nSo we didn't have time to get it together. We had it, it had to already be together. And so again, that kind of. Fueled the passion, for us to teach our community, that we can have a good relationship with money. So that, yeah, that's a passion for us. \n\nStuart: Was your experience the same, Leon?\nDid you see it from a family perspective? Was it something that you'd grown up with? \n\nLeon: Yes. basically what DeLayna is saying. I watched my grandparents raised me until I was about 12 years old. And I watched my grandmother. Put money away and put, make sure that the family was taking care of my grandfather would work, but my grandmother would take care of the money and everything.\nI saw her kind of buy her own home and put it on land. And, so I saw that happen, but on the flip side, my parents worked so hard, they were focused and working. But they just, they didn't know what to do with their money. So as a young person, this is what's really funny. I was about, 13, 14 years old when I told my parents, I said, listen, I don't know what y'all doing.\nY'all make money, but you need to give it to me so I can manage it. And that's very true. My dad laughs about that now, but they're in a better, way better position than they were then. \n\nStuart: That generational split, assumedly they'd seen it from their parents, because you'd seen it from your grandparents, but something gets lost in translation and I always think that, I'm guessing that we're similar age. So at school in the UK in the 80s, there was like a, We would call it home economics class. \n\nDeLayna: Yes, yeah, we had it here too. Home economics. \n\nStuart: I'm glad those words translate. Sometimes I'll say something and I can't quite make the translation quick enough.\nbut those classes I think have broadly gone away as the budgets get cut or the emphasis just on qualifications goes up. So the people who are the younger generation now, unless they're seeing it from family. And even then, when it's such a close connection, sometimes you don't always appreciate it. So I imagine that in your experience, you've seen quite a lot of people coming in with really very little understanding of.\nEither the financial side or even the interpersonal side, has that been experienced? Do you really see people coming in with, a low level of understanding? \n\nDeLayna: Yeah, because people are living Stuart. they're just, they're in the grind, they get married and they think that understanding money is just going to come by osmosis, right?\nWho thinks about money outside of earning it, spending it. Saving it, but coming together as a couple, understanding that there's different backgrounds and how we were raised and that there is a relationship with money. A lot of people don't have that understanding. And when they come, they may have joint accounts, they may have separate accounts.\nsome people don't bank at all. so you've got the, the. Pay loans. And, it's just a lot of different dynamics in our culture. And so I think what Leon and I are able to do is to bridge that gap. we've been in mortgage banking and financial services for over close to 40 years, and so we grew up with it because we were, again, I was able to get in it.\nI think I was like 22, when I joined the bank. And so We come from that background, but a lot of couples do not. And so we're able to bridge that gap, help couples have the money conversation, help them understand that talking about money can be normal. It doesn't have to be a frustration, and we just help with that understanding.\nSo yeah. \n\nStuart: The, I guess that's a good transition into the book. So the book itself is called The Power of Oneness, which reflects the overall program. Those elements that are within that, so there's the communication, the financial and the intimate side of things. Is it a pretty even split, so the people who you help best, who resonate best with the programs, is it a pretty even split across all three of those elements of the stool or do, because of your financial background, is it more the financial element that people resonate with?\nI think it's pretty \n\nLeon: much a split between all of it because we want to make sure that, we cover the whole thing, but finances is a huge part of it because, marriage is split up mostly because of finance, they find that, they can get everything else right pretty much, but then they can't get on the same page with that money.\nAnd so by us, being advisors, and loving it. Yeah, really enjoying it, and learning so much about, the financial industry with life insurance, things we didn't know, like Delaney is saying in our community, it was there, but it was for burial, enough to, to make sure that we got in the ground.\nBut what we know now, what we've learned about life insurance and how we can use it as, as a concept of a bank. \n\nDeLayna: A wealth building tool. A wealth building tool. Never heard of that. Never heard of that. \n\nLeon: although we've heard of stuff like cash value life insurance. Yeah, we've heard of it, but what does that mean?\nExactly. How do we use it? How do we use it to our \n\nStuart: advantage? Even as professionals, you talk, come from the perspective of people actually in the industry, and there's still that stuff that isn't the central mainstream, the stuff that's slightly on the edge or isn't commonly talked about. Even as professionals, the people closest to it possibly, it was still something that's unclear.\nI really imagine that for the. for the general population out there, who were typically turned off from thinking about that type of thing too much anyway, such a, an opportunity that's missed. It's a, it's an interesting bridge because when we look at the job of work of. What you want the book to do and your core day to day business.\nYou're not just relationship counselors and this is your business and this is the job work. You're not just financial advisors. There's a bridge across the both. I think it's quite interesting often talk about this idea of topic bridging. So for example, if you were just financial advisors, you might still talk about the relationship element of it as an introduction to the conversation.\nBut for you guys specifically, there's such a tight connection between the two. What's the... I guess as I'm thinking about the audience who's listening in, there's going to be that mix of the audience that you share it with who might be your clients. We want to share now what the book is about to encourage people to get hold of it.\nIt's obviously going out to our audience and these are business owners and entrepreneurs thinking about a book for their own purpose. What's that bridge in your mind? What led you to write the book in the first place? And that bridge between. The community and the book and the health information and then how that translates into actual business.\nTalk a little bit more about \n\nDeLayna: that. Yeah, it's about empowerment. It's about knowledge. We wanted people to have a book, have something that they could, that's, relatable. Leanna and I tell our background, our stories, we don't talk a lot of tech. Techie, even though I am a technologist by, by, financial technologists as well, but we wanted to make sure that people had something in their hands, like I said, Leon and I've been doing power oneness conferences for years.\nand we always had a book that they could follow, they could take their notes, husband and wives, whether whoever was in the room, could jot down the thoughts, cause that we all Stuart have stored beliefs. we have things, language, money don't grow on trees.\nAnd, what do you think, who do you think I am, a bank and can't get blood out of a turnip, just what are you talking about? and so we wanted to be able to have something that was relatable, that was. Educational, and that people could have as a tool, they can look and read about life insurance, read about saving, making money, normal, generational wealth, how to pass that on, how to control it and hold onto it, and have those family conversations, with your children, we're here.\nwith our son and our daughter in law, they're going to be new grandparents, soon. Ah, fantastic. Yeah. And so when we get together, we have those family conversations. we talk about business with, they're entrepreneurs, both of them are in the entertainment industry.\nand so we have those conversations and we make it normal. So we wanted to bring that. That climate, that energy, if you will, to the book. And then people know that, you know what we could have, we could talk about money during Thanksgiving and doesn't have to be awkward, we can have a conversation that's not taboo, during the holidays when we come together in your family chats.\nyou're talking with your family anyway, make sure that you're all on the same page. what about a family vision, what about a dynasty, what do you want to leave? Leon always teases, the kids about, he wants his picture on the mantle, so that our grandchildren can say, that's grandpa and grandpa had a saving grace.\nso yeah, we want to, we want it to be fun. We don't want it to be stressful. And then we. Because we are,subject matter experts, if you will, in the products, we not only wanted to teach and have it, have seminars and conversation, but we wanted to make sure that our clients were in the right products as well.\nso we're salespeople, we're teachers, and then we are. Ministers. so put all that together, right? \n\nStuart: The good thing about it is particularly when you're coming from a perspective of it's not like a hard close. no, Glenn Glammy, Glenn Ross, always be closing type sales pitch. The whole holistic approach is sharing the knowledge.\nSo the religious context of the word or just the sharing context, it's the empowering other people and. Increasing their understanding, one of the things that as you were talking, you said something about getting people on the same page, and I imagine that must be, quite a challenge in the, in the environment of a workshop or a seminar, because people come with so many different views, not everyone is on the same page when they walk in through the door, but the benefit Of the book is at least you're helping to bridge that gap or close that gap a little bit because it either whether it's commonality of language or familiarity of products or just the general approach and how it sticks together.\nSomeone having consumed that information a little bit more, at least they're walking through the door or jumping on zoom with. a little bit more being on the same page, both each other and with you guys. Do you find that at all as an element of getting people up to the same page and an anticipation that the book will help close that gap?\n\nLeon: Most definitely. we wanted to start, in the book, we started out talking about communication. As one of the chapters is on communication. Communication is a two way street. and that,and then that, part of the book, we talk about, some of what the backgrounds are.\nWhat was your background in this? What was your background in that? To try to start bridging that gap, as you say, putting them on the same, getting them to talk, communicate, And express themselves, because Delano was saying, sometimes communication can be a taboo thing. People don't really, when you got the husband who don't talk much, and you got the wife that, enjoys hearing stories or want to know what your day is like, and And you don't want, you come in, you just want to get into a lazy boy and watch football and, you talk to me. So we bridging that gap about, being able to communicate with one another, then start to talk about money, then start to talk about, life period.\nBecause what we want to do is we want to cover, we want to teach you how to get into that role of talking about money, talking about the family. where it's going, and that's huge for us. That's huge for us because we want to make sure that everybody is not just the parents, but when our son sees us, we only have one child, he saw us work all our lives together.\nYeah. So in communicating together, and, I wasn't, I'm, I was that guy that didn't want to talk a lot, I let, I didn't, I enjoyed listening to her, but getting my thoughts out was a little bit harder. Yeah. And so I had to learn how to do that. And it's okay. if you don't know to reach out, even as a man, I had a gentleman reach out to me and say, Hey man, my wife and I are not on the same page.\nI need your help. That way they could contact us if we needed to do deeper work, we're open to that, if it works out, if you're, if it works out where we can work together with you, we're open to that, we're open to help relationships and that's where \n\nDeLayna: we are. Yeah, like I said, it's not just about a sale.\nIt is about Can you succeed as a couple and, and the whole, like you said, the holistic view, the power of oneness, one mind singleness of thought, there's power in that, there's a stability that you bring to your children when they see that you can communicate about anything and everything that, that gives them confidence, that, that gives them,a sense of stability and so they're more ready.\nThank you. To talk, with their husband and wife or \n\nStuart: girlfriend or whatever, that's such an interesting insight because I think there's so much, my wife's a kindergarten teacher in a Waldorf school. So over the summer, they had some, the staff had some, collected reading.\nAnd then one of the books, the name was on the tip of my tongue. It's disappeared. it might be called anti fragile. Anyway, it was a semi, I think it was written by an academic, but not particularly an academic book, but it was pointing out some of the fragility of kids today. So I think he was talking from the concept of, Lucy read it, I didn't.\nI was just listening in and she was sharing pieces. So I think it was written from the context of kids going to college and university and entering the works workplace and how the difficulties they're having is partly due to the Society and parenting over the last 20 years. So as opposed to when we've grown up, where you were kicked out of the house and told to come back when it goes dark, you were abducted, you'd get a clip around the ear for being abducted first.\nAnd then there'd be the sympathy. so anyway, this kind of slightly fragile element. So I think a long way of saying that example you were just giving. Of people coming to you because they recognize the need for making a change. There is a better path. They see it in you guys. They want it for themselves.\nSo there's that first tier of improvement. And then from that, there might come relationship conversations and financial conversations and intimacy conversations. They might, there's a product element to it, which you can help with just on that side of the business, which that helps, but this broader generational element of them.\ntheir children, seeing them work through it and everything doesn't get handed to you on a plate, you have to work for it a little bit. Challenge and difficulty leads to growth and opportunity. As a generational swing, that must be Seeing that in practice must be quite, uplifting for you to see it because you've been doing this now for, this isn't your first year, you must have \n\nDeLayna: over 30 years.\n\nStuart: it just feels like a year, but it's actually been longer. So Lucy's the same. She's been teaching for 2027 years, so she's starting to see the children of people who were. In the community before. So anyway, long way of saying that generational change. Do you firsthand see that impact on the next generation down as the kids are responding to what the parents decided to do 30 years ago.\n\nDeLayna: Yeah, we have children that are now grown. And they affectionately call us mom and dad, and they're so excited about thank you for helping my parents. One of, one of the families I'm real specifically in my mind thinking about right now, when he got his job and everything, he saw how we were helping his parents and he called, Leon, and he said, I just want to thank you so much because we have food in our cabinet.\nwe have, food in our refrigerator. it's like we're not struggling financially anymore. And when a teenager says that, that's really powerful because they see that their parents made money choices. Differently because they had the information, they had the support.\nAnd that's what it's all about, Stuart. It is about one generation after the other succeeding, and you have a part in that. And that, that to me is stability. You talk about lead generation, right? if you help the parents and then the children see that there's fruit there, then they're going to, they're going to trust you.\nAnd then they're, you're going to take care of the grandchildren. And, cause it's about. Every generation succeeding because we have the right information, put them in the right products and we're advisors that care. So I'm excited about that. \n\nStuart: That's a great point as well. And a good way of switching into kind of, the more business side of the conversation, which is always difficult.\nA lot of these conversations, the people who come to the point of wanting to write a book, the majority are thinking about things. Sorry, my phone just rang. I'm not sure if you hear that. so the majority of people who are thinking about writing a book where there's two camps. Okay. I have a problem sticking on one train of thought today.\nTwo camps. This is what happened when we had the strategy call last time. There's so much excitement. \n\nDeLayna: We do that to people. There's \n\nStuart: two camps of people who write the book. One who are coming to it purely from a kind of process point of view of it's lead generation. We want something that's effective. But really it's part of a campaign.\nAnd then the next group is, no, we've got, as well as that, we've got a very clear message that we want to share and there's an emotional connection to it. And, and a real desire to share, like you guys share the information and the knowledge. But the lead generation piece of it almost comes. Secondarily, But it's something that we want to focus on and orchestrate that journey through. So the book, your book, The Power of Oneness is, we're just wrapping that up now, it's pretty new. Do you think about writing that specifically? I know you talked about there being another book that you used in the business.\n\nDeLayna: Yes, definitely a series. \n\nStuart: yeah. So this idea of how it fits into the bigger picture, was that pretty orchestrated? You've got a pretty clear. Idea now of how to use it and how to use it next rather than a kind of build it and they will come type approach. \n\nDeLayna: Yeah, because we, we also do coaching, and so we saw that people would come in through our coaching, for marriage, for empowerment, do a lot of work with women,and,mind of their money, so they can understand that there's, is a mental aspect as well.\nSo they come to us for coaching and empowerment and information. And then as a part of our coaching program, the finances. Again, was it was foundational. And so in the talking about their finances, we gave them what their, what their steps would be, and to us, life insurance is the foundation of every financial plan.\nIf you don't have life insurance. What are we talking about? we don't have a plan, because that's foundational. So they, to them, it's okay, this is part of, this is part of the process. It was no, no sales needed. It was just part of the process to be successful financially. And that's what we found.\nAnd so we said, Writing a book just substantiates that, it helps us be the subject matter expert in the mind of people, but this was something we were already doing, before the book, because we feel like we are the book, right? We were the walking, talking evidence of what we're teaching.\nWe live it every day. And so we want to provide that and that confidence and they seeing it happen in our life. And then they watch our children and now our grandchildren, is evident. So the book is, again, it's an extension of what we were already doing, but I think the book is going to now help us even get a more national, reach because again, we're seeing a subject matter experts.\nSo we really thank, you guys for helping us get there. Yeah. \n\nStuart: pleasure. And I think that's the, when people come to us with the seed of the idea, the fact that we've done a thousand of these, we can just plug in a little bit of a tweak here and a direction here and a use case there and just help amplify.\nIt really is the. The kind of synergy of the passion and the expertise that you bring on the subject and what we can bring to the process and not only just make sure that it happens and gets done, but is amplified and leveraged to make it as effective as possible. One thing that I really like that you mentioned there is this idea of the product, the sale, the fact that there is a financial instrument in there somewhere.\nIs almost secondary to natural. Yeah, much better way to think about it. Yeah, exactly. it's the obvious logical part of the overall solution that we're trying to create for people. And I think that's true no matter what. Business you're in. If you can think about the knowledge that you're sharing and trying to bring people along in a way that's very beneficial for them.\nAnd there is that natural component of it. It just makes it a much more smoother and less stressful process \n\nDeLayna: for both parties, we don't have to feel like we're. selling you or convincing you. and then you don't have to feel like you're being sold. and so it's just, so it's just natural. It's like breathing.\nIt's just, it's very natural. Yeah. \n\nStuart: I'll switch gears slightly into the process. So for you guys, I think there was more of a, the, the seminars you've been doing were on message with the book and you've got years of experience of doing it in a particular way. Was there. The process of creating the book, we always talk about the work from the outside in.\nSo the front cover grabs people's attention and the back cover is the call to action. And then the table of contents is the quick stepping stones where people can scan down and get that feeling in the right place. and then the content kind of comes from that. So for you guys. Going through the process.\nWas that an easy thing to pull together because it was so married up with the existing way of doing things? Or was there a lot of kind of manipulating what you do day to day into the structure of a book? Your \n\nLeon: team did a great job. first of all, helping us get an outline, \nkept us in line as to, where we wanted to go and, we definitely Work, work with them very closely.\nand they helped walk us through the process. Okay. And, it was, with that outline, with what they brought, and they helped us create our stories. Yeah, they're great interviewers. Yeah, they're great interviewers. And,it was wonderful. It was absolutely wonderful.\n\nStuart: yeah. I can imagine, I haven't listened back to the recordings, but I can imagine that as you were recording the content, just the level of energy and yes, yeah, it would have made a very kind of smooth and seamless process. You mentioned there, this idea of being a little bit all over the place.\nI guess that comes from having such a. a wide sphere of influence and a wide breadth of experience, one of the elements in the scorecard, the book blueprint scorecard is this idea of beneficial constraints. And that by being narrow, it actually helps getting it done. And then obviously there's all of this stuff outside of the pages of the book, but in terms of narrowing the scope to get it done, that kind of, Particularly when you come from such a broad experience, that beneficial constraints is one of the key things to narrow it down and get it done.\nDid you have a feeling anywhere in the process that. It was difficult to narrow that scope down or was it easy to think okay this is in the book and this \n\nDeLayna: is out of the \n\nLeon: book. That is a \n\nDeLayna: very good question. Yeah, Leon had to stop me from rewriting the book. Okay, DeLayna hits in. Okay, we'll cover that in the next book, because you want to tell everything you know you're so excited he is You understand the benefits and, what you want to give. and, and then I'm, I'm, Avid reader, so I wanted to make sure that all the grammar and everything was correct. And when I'm going through it, I'm like, Oh, this is so conversational. And,are people going to be, are they going to, are my academics, going to feel like this is too basic, And so then I said, okay, send, content is good. they can talk to us and coach with us. They know that we're real, they'll get it. \n\nStuart: And that's actually such an interesting point because. The idea of, a conversation starting book, a minimum effective book, is the anti book in a way. It's not this set in stone, typeset by monks, costs 100, 000, in a tone that people wouldn't recognize as you if you then spoke to them on the phone.\nThis idea of a conversation starting book, which is... Cost effective and time effective to get out there that starts the conversation that reflects the language that you use so that when you do get on the phone with them, because the risk of going off on another tangent, but this idea of a traditionally published book, the \n\nDeLayna: job.\nIt would have took us forever, Stuart. We wouldn't have never got it done. We would still be, we would still be thinking about it, trying to get it done. \n\nStuart: Exactly. And to what end the people who purchase or the whole marketplace for traditional books is to make money off the cover price of a book.\nThe whole purpose of the conversation starting book is you want them to have a conversation with them. The outcome you want is for them to jump on a call and say, Hey, when's the next seminar? And if they walk into the room feeling like they know you already, then that's done a job that. Exceeds the, just the words on the page.\nIt's, I \n\nDeLayna: agree. Yeah, it's powerful experience. And I was in a mastermind book club and we were meeting every Saturday and we were talking and it's just great. And now we're published what, three months. Oh my gosh, it's powerful. The process is powerful. Now I would just implore anyone to get it.\nDone. Yeah. Stop thinking about it. Stop talking about it. Stop angsting over it and just do it. Yeah. The \n\nStuart: idea that you don't know, no plan survives contact with the enemy or what's the Mike Tyson line? Everyone's got a plan until I punched him in the face.\nYou can go into a book project with an idea of what the outcome will be or how it will be received or which elements will resonate. And there was a show that we did a couple of weeks ago, I think it was with Paul Ross. And he was saying there was a throwaway line almost that he had in the book that he was talking about one particular thing, but.\n80% of the people who have spoken to him afterwards have all picked up on this one tiny thing. So now he knows that element is such a critical path on the road to people becoming clients. He could have doubled down on a book and not included any of that at all. Or now there's an opportunity for that to be a whole follow up in the funnel or a whole second book focused on that piece individually.\nIt's, Yeah, getting it out there and reacting and responding to how it actually is received and pivoting and amplifying those pieces. Yeah. so powerful. I just looked up in the top corner of my screen and realized how long I've been talking about the game.\nYeah. At least this is the second time we've talked. I feel like I've caveated it enough now. and people listening to the podcast understand as well. One of the things I'd really want to encourage people as we started was saying that people follow along with your journey and what you do and then see how the book.\nanchors in with the rest of the programs, where's the, as people are listening to this, both kind of our clients listening on our podcast feed and your clients who are listening to, if you share it, where's the best place for them to go to learn more about what you guys do and take that next.\nOh, \n\nDeLayna: watch it on the next step. Two websites. We have Leon and DeLayna. com. That's Leon, L E O N A N D D E L A Y N A. com. and, yeah, Leon and DeLayna, Leon and DeLayna. com. And that's my little tagline, that's first. And then, the, the URL for the book would be powerofonenessbook. com.\nThat's power of oneness. book, no s book, singular dot com. So start there and then we'll take it right on. \n\nStuart: Yeah. And like I say, this example, both for people reading the book and consuming the information, because it's fantastically useful and, Mind expanding a little bit in terms of the approach that you take in and the breadth, but also joining along because of this tie in between the business and the seminar and what you do and what you promote in social media and all of the communications with what's in the book.\nSo we want to encourage people to see that connection because it is, it's, it is very strong. So I'll make sure that we put links to this, both in the podcast show notes. So if people are just listening, that'll be in a. The show notes and they can click through on the website if they're listening and click through to the website.\nWe'll put the links in there. I think we've covered it all, but any last thoughts on \n\nDeLayna: I think for my Engineers and technology people who don't, not necessarily looking at the relationship piece, world fidelity life is our financial services company here. And,Leon is right there.\nWe have our photo there, all of our background as far as, as advisors. So if you're looking for specifically, financial advice, for, Okay. Life insurance and annuities. World Fidelity Life is our company. so they can go right there. Ah, \n\nStuart: perfect. So we'll put a link to that as well.\nLike you say, some people just want to cut straight to that piece. \n\nDeLayna: Get to the money. Yeah. \n\nStuart: Yeah, we'll make sure that's there as well. Okay. \n\nLeon: no, it's been great. I just I've enjoyed the whole process of putting the book together. It's been a dream of mine for oh, 20 plus years, to get this done.\nAnd now to have it, where it's marketable and to be able to put it out there and, however it's thought of. Our whole heart was to get to talk to the people and to share with them the information that we feel like that changed our lives that can change their lives and finances.\nWe wanted to start with that finance piece because that's what breaks up so many marriages, as I said before. So the power of oneness. Winning in marriage and money, you can do it all, you can have it all. That's \n\nStuart: what I love. Thank you. Fantastic. guys, it's been an absolute pleasure. I enjoy it every time we get to talk.\nWe'll be talking more offline off the podcast, I'm sure. And then it'll be great in a little bit down the track. Get you guys back on and then we can get some, it'd be really interesting to hear some stories of how the book's impacting people, because I really think that's gonna not be eye-opening 'cause I think everyone knows.\nBut to get that real feedback and hear the stories firsthand, that'd be great to share with people as well. So thank you. Thank you, everyone for thanks for listening. As always, check out the show notes. As I mentioned, we'll put links to. To the websites, in the podcast notes, and on the websites. So check those out and then we will catch you on the next one.","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we have a great conversation with DeLayna & Leon Elliott, authors of ' 'The Power of OneNess-Winning in Marriage and Money. ' and Relationship and financial advisors
\n\nThis discussion is fascinating, especially if your business and passion align. As financial advisors, DeLayna and Leon help families secure their financial future, but they are also passionate relationship coaches. Their book combines their expertise in these fields and is the perfect way to start a conversation with the people they can best help.
\n\nThey know that taboos around financial conversations cause many failing relationships, and their approach is to uncover a unique approach by interweaving financial literacy with conversation and intimate relationship elements to create a holistic approach that empowers their clients.
\n\nHaving been in business for more than 20 years, they know their financial products are the perfect fit for most clients they speak to about relationship counseling. It removes selling pressure and becomes one of many issues people are excited to resolve.
\n\nTheir book is the perfect tool at the top of the funnel to help them identify new clients and support even more referrals.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/147
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nDeLayna: Hi, it was good to be here. Thanks, Stuart.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Okay. this is going to be a great episode. I love your story so much. I'm really excited to share some of the background with people and then we'll obviously move into the book and how we plan on using it. I think this is going to be one of those examples where I always recommend that people kind of Head over to follow the links and follow the story, but for you guys particularly, because you've got such an established presence and the book ties in so nicely with that, this is going to be a really interesting story for people to follow along with and see how the book ties in with the business.
\nSo with that in mind, why don't we start with a bit of background on what you guys do and, and the business and who it is that you work with.
Leon: Yes, Stuart, again, we just want to thank you for allowing us to be on your program on your podcast and it means a lot to us to be here with you. When we very first got started, we chatted for a little bit.
\nIt was just absolutely awesome. I think it went a little bit longer than you expected.
Stuart: I always apologize for people in check that they don't have a hard out because I sometimes. I think we said as, as we were talking, when I noticed that my voice gets really croaky, that's a sign I've been talking too long, but it's also a sign of the passion that you guys bring to it.
\nSo yeah, excited to share this with people.
Leon: we've actually been, working with couples. For many years, and we actually started doing like conferences and events with married couples. We also work with singles that want to be married. We did marriage counseling or coaching. for many years, our background is ministry, church, if you will.
\nAnd, that's how we got started. DeLayna and I met, DeLayna and I met in, what they call now, I call it a junior high. I think they call it middle school now. And, when I saw her, Stuart, when I saw her in the, cafeteria that morning, it just, with that great smile, it just blew my mind.
\nFrom that point, I started doing my thing, doing my sales pitch. And, but definitely we, we started, right after we got married, we had couples actually reaching out to us and we were like, wait a minute, we haven't even been married that long. And they were reaching out to us and asking us questions about our marriage.
\nAnd, we were sharing with them, what we were. Doing and everybody was loving it. So we started doing the events years later, and they just worked. And, so what we wanted to do when we put the events together, we had put together what my wife calls a workbook.
\nI call it a book to help guide us through and to help those couples to be guided through. And we would do is dealing with, Money, we were dealing with, sex or intimacy, and, we were dealing with, what's the other part of it? Communication, which is very important that you have that communication.
\nand that's that's how we got started.
Stuart: And that's,I guess one thing I have to ask first is, DeLayna, do you remember the middle school experience in the same way? I've got visions of, I , I don't on know Spotlight on Leon as he's sauntering over .
\n\nDeLayna: I was a, actually, I was a cheerleader, Stewart, so he forgot to, put that little plug in.
\nSo I was in cheerleading uniform. but Leon was, he was really shy. we were outgoing and, bubbly. And we even have some classes together, but he was really shy. So I didn't really know that he had an interest until we started becoming friends. And then we joined a, we formed actually a singing group.
\nYeah, my mom was like our director and, and so we started recruiting our friends and then we just clicked. we thought alike, we got along so great. And so we knew then as teenagers that we could be a couple. but it wasn't until after we graduated, that we got married right out We, both of us were in college and we decided that we were going to get married,
\nAnd so then he went into the military and we got into the mortgage industry and that's where our financial background, came into when we were in Monterey, California. So back then though, like I said, he was so shy. I didn't really know that he was really interested until we became really good friends.
\nAnd that's how it works. And we're still friends today. So definitely.
Stuart: My wife and I think some people know the story. We were friends in the last year of college back in the 90s, and then our past kind of went different ways and then we always loosely stayed in touch, but she was over here in the States and I was back in the UK.
\nBut we reconnected when I was over in the States more with work, 10 years ago now. So that's Long burn of a friendship and the common communication that you have without the pressure of a relationship. I guess that helps in establishing some of the foundations that the other people then saw and were asking you questions.
\nyou mentioned the mortgage business then, so you're financial advisors now and offer people the financial advice element as well, the relationships, the relationship counseling for want of a better term, did that come completely independently? Was that almost a pastime thing or was there a business interest in that right from the start?
\nRight from the start.
DeLayna: Okay, definitely. Yeah, right from the start. we knew we wanted to be professionals because I come from a single parent home, where my mother was the breadwinner and most, 74% of our community Stewart, are headed by black women that are the breadwinners.
\nAnd so growing up with that. I knew that this was a passion for me. I saw my mother, she basically She was it, she was, ex military, she was in college and raising us at the same time. So with that was such a burning passion, for me to learn about money, to understand money.
\nI watched her budget, prior to computers with shoe boxes and, organizing her money and her bills and paying her bills. And, we come in with all the paper. All over the bed, as she was organizing her finances. I'm like, what are you doing every month? and, and so watching her do that.
\nand then she was so organized and then when computers came in, she automated everything. And when she passed in 2017, Stuart, all my sister and I had to do was grieve. Yes. Because mom had her life insurance, Yeah. Everything was organized. We, she passed on a Monday, Tuesday, we were in negotiations, with the funeral home by Saturday, she was buried.
\nSo we didn't have time to get it together. We had it, it had to already be together. And so again, that kind of. Fueled the passion, for us to teach our community, that we can have a good relationship with money. So that, yeah, that's a passion for us.
Stuart: Was your experience the same, Leon?
\nDid you see it from a family perspective? Was it something that you'd grown up with?
Leon: Yes. basically what DeLayna is saying. I watched my grandparents raised me until I was about 12 years old. And I watched my grandmother. Put money away and put, make sure that the family was taking care of my grandfather would work, but my grandmother would take care of the money and everything.
\nI saw her kind of buy her own home and put it on land. And, so I saw that happen, but on the flip side, my parents worked so hard, they were focused and working. But they just, they didn't know what to do with their money. So as a young person, this is what's really funny. I was about, 13, 14 years old when I told my parents, I said, listen, I don't know what y'all doing.
\nY'all make money, but you need to give it to me so I can manage it. And that's very true. My dad laughs about that now, but they're in a better, way better position than they were then.
Stuart: That generational split, assumedly they'd seen it from their parents, because you'd seen it from your grandparents, but something gets lost in translation and I always think that, I'm guessing that we're similar age. So at school in the UK in the 80s, there was like a, We would call it home economics class.
\n\nDeLayna: Yes, yeah, we had it here too. Home economics.
\n\nStuart: I'm glad those words translate. Sometimes I'll say something and I can't quite make the translation quick enough.
\nbut those classes I think have broadly gone away as the budgets get cut or the emphasis just on qualifications goes up. So the people who are the younger generation now, unless they're seeing it from family. And even then, when it's such a close connection, sometimes you don't always appreciate it. So I imagine that in your experience, you've seen quite a lot of people coming in with really very little understanding of.
\nEither the financial side or even the interpersonal side, has that been experienced? Do you really see people coming in with, a low level of understanding?
DeLayna: Yeah, because people are living Stuart. they're just, they're in the grind, they get married and they think that understanding money is just going to come by osmosis, right?
\nWho thinks about money outside of earning it, spending it. Saving it, but coming together as a couple, understanding that there's different backgrounds and how we were raised and that there is a relationship with money. A lot of people don't have that understanding. And when they come, they may have joint accounts, they may have separate accounts.
\nsome people don't bank at all. so you've got the, the. Pay loans. And, it's just a lot of different dynamics in our culture. And so I think what Leon and I are able to do is to bridge that gap. we've been in mortgage banking and financial services for over close to 40 years, and so we grew up with it because we were, again, I was able to get in it.
\nI think I was like 22, when I joined the bank. And so We come from that background, but a lot of couples do not. And so we're able to bridge that gap, help couples have the money conversation, help them understand that talking about money can be normal. It doesn't have to be a frustration, and we just help with that understanding.
\nSo yeah.
Stuart: The, I guess that's a good transition into the book. So the book itself is called The Power of Oneness, which reflects the overall program. Those elements that are within that, so there's the communication, the financial and the intimate side of things. Is it a pretty even split, so the people who you help best, who resonate best with the programs, is it a pretty even split across all three of those elements of the stool or do, because of your financial background, is it more the financial element that people resonate with?
\nI think it's pretty
Leon: much a split between all of it because we want to make sure that, we cover the whole thing, but finances is a huge part of it because, marriage is split up mostly because of finance, they find that, they can get everything else right pretty much, but then they can't get on the same page with that money.
\nAnd so by us, being advisors, and loving it. Yeah, really enjoying it, and learning so much about, the financial industry with life insurance, things we didn't know, like Delaney is saying in our community, it was there, but it was for burial, enough to, to make sure that we got in the ground.
\nBut what we know now, what we've learned about life insurance and how we can use it as, as a concept of a bank.
DeLayna: A wealth building tool. A wealth building tool. Never heard of that. Never heard of that.
\n\nLeon: although we've heard of stuff like cash value life insurance. Yeah, we've heard of it, but what does that mean?
\nExactly. How do we use it? How do we use it to our
Stuart: advantage? Even as professionals, you talk, come from the perspective of people actually in the industry, and there's still that stuff that isn't the central mainstream, the stuff that's slightly on the edge or isn't commonly talked about. Even as professionals, the people closest to it possibly, it was still something that's unclear.
\nI really imagine that for the. for the general population out there, who were typically turned off from thinking about that type of thing too much anyway, such a, an opportunity that's missed. It's a, it's an interesting bridge because when we look at the job of work of. What you want the book to do and your core day to day business.
\nYou're not just relationship counselors and this is your business and this is the job work. You're not just financial advisors. There's a bridge across the both. I think it's quite interesting often talk about this idea of topic bridging. So for example, if you were just financial advisors, you might still talk about the relationship element of it as an introduction to the conversation.
\nBut for you guys specifically, there's such a tight connection between the two. What's the... I guess as I'm thinking about the audience who's listening in, there's going to be that mix of the audience that you share it with who might be your clients. We want to share now what the book is about to encourage people to get hold of it.
\nIt's obviously going out to our audience and these are business owners and entrepreneurs thinking about a book for their own purpose. What's that bridge in your mind? What led you to write the book in the first place? And that bridge between. The community and the book and the health information and then how that translates into actual business.
\nTalk a little bit more about
DeLayna: that. Yeah, it's about empowerment. It's about knowledge. We wanted people to have a book, have something that they could, that's, relatable. Leanna and I tell our background, our stories, we don't talk a lot of tech. Techie, even though I am a technologist by, by, financial technologists as well, but we wanted to make sure that people had something in their hands, like I said, Leon and I've been doing power oneness conferences for years.
\nand we always had a book that they could follow, they could take their notes, husband and wives, whether whoever was in the room, could jot down the thoughts, cause that we all Stuart have stored beliefs. we have things, language, money don't grow on trees.
\nAnd, what do you think, who do you think I am, a bank and can't get blood out of a turnip, just what are you talking about? and so we wanted to be able to have something that was relatable, that was. Educational, and that people could have as a tool, they can look and read about life insurance, read about saving, making money, normal, generational wealth, how to pass that on, how to control it and hold onto it, and have those family conversations, with your children, we're here.
\nwith our son and our daughter in law, they're going to be new grandparents, soon. Ah, fantastic. Yeah. And so when we get together, we have those family conversations. we talk about business with, they're entrepreneurs, both of them are in the entertainment industry.
\nand so we have those conversations and we make it normal. So we wanted to bring that. That climate, that energy, if you will, to the book. And then people know that, you know what we could have, we could talk about money during Thanksgiving and doesn't have to be awkward, we can have a conversation that's not taboo, during the holidays when we come together in your family chats.
\nyou're talking with your family anyway, make sure that you're all on the same page. what about a family vision, what about a dynasty, what do you want to leave? Leon always teases, the kids about, he wants his picture on the mantle, so that our grandchildren can say, that's grandpa and grandpa had a saving grace.
\nso yeah, we want to, we want it to be fun. We don't want it to be stressful. And then we. Because we are,subject matter experts, if you will, in the products, we not only wanted to teach and have it, have seminars and conversation, but we wanted to make sure that our clients were in the right products as well.
\nso we're salespeople, we're teachers, and then we are. Ministers. so put all that together, right?
Stuart: The good thing about it is particularly when you're coming from a perspective of it's not like a hard close. no, Glenn Glammy, Glenn Ross, always be closing type sales pitch. The whole holistic approach is sharing the knowledge.
\nSo the religious context of the word or just the sharing context, it's the empowering other people and. Increasing their understanding, one of the things that as you were talking, you said something about getting people on the same page, and I imagine that must be, quite a challenge in the, in the environment of a workshop or a seminar, because people come with so many different views, not everyone is on the same page when they walk in through the door, but the benefit Of the book is at least you're helping to bridge that gap or close that gap a little bit because it either whether it's commonality of language or familiarity of products or just the general approach and how it sticks together.
\nSomeone having consumed that information a little bit more, at least they're walking through the door or jumping on zoom with. a little bit more being on the same page, both each other and with you guys. Do you find that at all as an element of getting people up to the same page and an anticipation that the book will help close that gap?
Leon: Most definitely. we wanted to start, in the book, we started out talking about communication. As one of the chapters is on communication. Communication is a two way street. and that,and then that, part of the book, we talk about, some of what the backgrounds are.
\nWhat was your background in this? What was your background in that? To try to start bridging that gap, as you say, putting them on the same, getting them to talk, communicate, And express themselves, because Delano was saying, sometimes communication can be a taboo thing. People don't really, when you got the husband who don't talk much, and you got the wife that, enjoys hearing stories or want to know what your day is like, and And you don't want, you come in, you just want to get into a lazy boy and watch football and, you talk to me. So we bridging that gap about, being able to communicate with one another, then start to talk about money, then start to talk about, life period.
\nBecause what we want to do is we want to cover, we want to teach you how to get into that role of talking about money, talking about the family. where it's going, and that's huge for us. That's huge for us because we want to make sure that everybody is not just the parents, but when our son sees us, we only have one child, he saw us work all our lives together.
\nYeah. So in communicating together, and, I wasn't, I'm, I was that guy that didn't want to talk a lot, I let, I didn't, I enjoyed listening to her, but getting my thoughts out was a little bit harder. Yeah. And so I had to learn how to do that. And it's okay. if you don't know to reach out, even as a man, I had a gentleman reach out to me and say, Hey man, my wife and I are not on the same page.
\nI need your help. That way they could contact us if we needed to do deeper work, we're open to that, if it works out, if you're, if it works out where we can work together with you, we're open to that, we're open to help relationships and that's where
DeLayna: we are. Yeah, like I said, it's not just about a sale.
\nIt is about Can you succeed as a couple and, and the whole, like you said, the holistic view, the power of oneness, one mind singleness of thought, there's power in that, there's a stability that you bring to your children when they see that you can communicate about anything and everything that, that gives them confidence, that, that gives them,a sense of stability and so they're more ready.
\nThank you. To talk, with their husband and wife or
Stuart: girlfriend or whatever, that's such an interesting insight because I think there's so much, my wife's a kindergarten teacher in a Waldorf school. So over the summer, they had some, the staff had some, collected reading.
\nAnd then one of the books, the name was on the tip of my tongue. It's disappeared. it might be called anti fragile. Anyway, it was a semi, I think it was written by an academic, but not particularly an academic book, but it was pointing out some of the fragility of kids today. So I think he was talking from the concept of, Lucy read it, I didn't.
\nI was just listening in and she was sharing pieces. So I think it was written from the context of kids going to college and university and entering the works workplace and how the difficulties they're having is partly due to the Society and parenting over the last 20 years. So as opposed to when we've grown up, where you were kicked out of the house and told to come back when it goes dark, you were abducted, you'd get a clip around the ear for being abducted first.
\nAnd then there'd be the sympathy. so anyway, this kind of slightly fragile element. So I think a long way of saying that example you were just giving. Of people coming to you because they recognize the need for making a change. There is a better path. They see it in you guys. They want it for themselves.
\nSo there's that first tier of improvement. And then from that, there might come relationship conversations and financial conversations and intimacy conversations. They might, there's a product element to it, which you can help with just on that side of the business, which that helps, but this broader generational element of them.
\ntheir children, seeing them work through it and everything doesn't get handed to you on a plate, you have to work for it a little bit. Challenge and difficulty leads to growth and opportunity. As a generational swing, that must be Seeing that in practice must be quite, uplifting for you to see it because you've been doing this now for, this isn't your first year, you must have
DeLayna: over 30 years.
\n\nStuart: it just feels like a year, but it's actually been longer. So Lucy's the same. She's been teaching for 2027 years, so she's starting to see the children of people who were. In the community before. So anyway, long way of saying that generational change. Do you firsthand see that impact on the next generation down as the kids are responding to what the parents decided to do 30 years ago.
\n\nDeLayna: Yeah, we have children that are now grown. And they affectionately call us mom and dad, and they're so excited about thank you for helping my parents. One of, one of the families I'm real specifically in my mind thinking about right now, when he got his job and everything, he saw how we were helping his parents and he called, Leon, and he said, I just want to thank you so much because we have food in our cabinet.
\nwe have, food in our refrigerator. it's like we're not struggling financially anymore. And when a teenager says that, that's really powerful because they see that their parents made money choices. Differently because they had the information, they had the support.
\nAnd that's what it's all about, Stuart. It is about one generation after the other succeeding, and you have a part in that. And that, that to me is stability. You talk about lead generation, right? if you help the parents and then the children see that there's fruit there, then they're going to, they're going to trust you.
\nAnd then they're, you're going to take care of the grandchildren. And, cause it's about. Every generation succeeding because we have the right information, put them in the right products and we're advisors that care. So I'm excited about that.
Stuart: That's a great point as well. And a good way of switching into kind of, the more business side of the conversation, which is always difficult.
\nA lot of these conversations, the people who come to the point of wanting to write a book, the majority are thinking about things. Sorry, my phone just rang. I'm not sure if you hear that. so the majority of people who are thinking about writing a book where there's two camps. Okay. I have a problem sticking on one train of thought today.
\nTwo camps. This is what happened when we had the strategy call last time. There's so much excitement.
DeLayna: We do that to people. There's
\n\nStuart: two camps of people who write the book. One who are coming to it purely from a kind of process point of view of it's lead generation. We want something that's effective. But really it's part of a campaign.
\nAnd then the next group is, no, we've got, as well as that, we've got a very clear message that we want to share and there's an emotional connection to it. And, and a real desire to share, like you guys share the information and the knowledge. But the lead generation piece of it almost comes. Secondarily, But it's something that we want to focus on and orchestrate that journey through. So the book, your book, The Power of Oneness is, we're just wrapping that up now, it's pretty new. Do you think about writing that specifically? I know you talked about there being another book that you used in the business.
DeLayna: Yes, definitely a series.
\n\nStuart: yeah. So this idea of how it fits into the bigger picture, was that pretty orchestrated? You've got a pretty clear. Idea now of how to use it and how to use it next rather than a kind of build it and they will come type approach.
\n\nDeLayna: Yeah, because we, we also do coaching, and so we saw that people would come in through our coaching, for marriage, for empowerment, do a lot of work with women,and,mind of their money, so they can understand that there's, is a mental aspect as well.
\nSo they come to us for coaching and empowerment and information. And then as a part of our coaching program, the finances. Again, was it was foundational. And so in the talking about their finances, we gave them what their, what their steps would be, and to us, life insurance is the foundation of every financial plan.
\nIf you don't have life insurance. What are we talking about? we don't have a plan, because that's foundational. So they, to them, it's okay, this is part of, this is part of the process. It was no, no sales needed. It was just part of the process to be successful financially. And that's what we found.
\nAnd so we said, Writing a book just substantiates that, it helps us be the subject matter expert in the mind of people, but this was something we were already doing, before the book, because we feel like we are the book, right? We were the walking, talking evidence of what we're teaching.
\nWe live it every day. And so we want to provide that and that confidence and they seeing it happen in our life. And then they watch our children and now our grandchildren, is evident. So the book is, again, it's an extension of what we were already doing, but I think the book is going to now help us even get a more national, reach because again, we're seeing a subject matter experts.
\nSo we really thank, you guys for helping us get there. Yeah.
Stuart: pleasure. And I think that's the, when people come to us with the seed of the idea, the fact that we've done a thousand of these, we can just plug in a little bit of a tweak here and a direction here and a use case there and just help amplify.
\nIt really is the. The kind of synergy of the passion and the expertise that you bring on the subject and what we can bring to the process and not only just make sure that it happens and gets done, but is amplified and leveraged to make it as effective as possible. One thing that I really like that you mentioned there is this idea of the product, the sale, the fact that there is a financial instrument in there somewhere.
\nIs almost secondary to natural. Yeah, much better way to think about it. Yeah, exactly. it's the obvious logical part of the overall solution that we're trying to create for people. And I think that's true no matter what. Business you're in. If you can think about the knowledge that you're sharing and trying to bring people along in a way that's very beneficial for them.
\nAnd there is that natural component of it. It just makes it a much more smoother and less stressful process
DeLayna: for both parties, we don't have to feel like we're. selling you or convincing you. and then you don't have to feel like you're being sold. and so it's just, so it's just natural. It's like breathing.
\nIt's just, it's very natural. Yeah.
Stuart: I'll switch gears slightly into the process. So for you guys, I think there was more of a, the, the seminars you've been doing were on message with the book and you've got years of experience of doing it in a particular way. Was there. The process of creating the book, we always talk about the work from the outside in.
\nSo the front cover grabs people's attention and the back cover is the call to action. And then the table of contents is the quick stepping stones where people can scan down and get that feeling in the right place. and then the content kind of comes from that. So for you guys. Going through the process.
\nWas that an easy thing to pull together because it was so married up with the existing way of doing things? Or was there a lot of kind of manipulating what you do day to day into the structure of a book? Your
Leon: team did a great job. first of all, helping us get an outline,
\nkept us in line as to, where we wanted to go and, we definitely Work, work with them very closely.
\nand they helped walk us through the process. Okay. And, it was, with that outline, with what they brought, and they helped us create our stories. Yeah, they're great interviewers. Yeah, they're great interviewers. And,it was wonderful. It was absolutely wonderful.
Stuart: yeah. I can imagine, I haven't listened back to the recordings, but I can imagine that as you were recording the content, just the level of energy and yes, yeah, it would have made a very kind of smooth and seamless process. You mentioned there, this idea of being a little bit all over the place.
\nI guess that comes from having such a. a wide sphere of influence and a wide breadth of experience, one of the elements in the scorecard, the book blueprint scorecard is this idea of beneficial constraints. And that by being narrow, it actually helps getting it done. And then obviously there's all of this stuff outside of the pages of the book, but in terms of narrowing the scope to get it done, that kind of, Particularly when you come from such a broad experience, that beneficial constraints is one of the key things to narrow it down and get it done.
\nDid you have a feeling anywhere in the process that. It was difficult to narrow that scope down or was it easy to think okay this is in the book and this
DeLayna: is out of the
\n\nLeon: book. That is a
\n\nDeLayna: very good question. Yeah, Leon had to stop me from rewriting the book. Okay, DeLayna hits in. Okay, we'll cover that in the next book, because you want to tell everything you know you're so excited he is You understand the benefits and, what you want to give. and, and then I'm, I'm, Avid reader, so I wanted to make sure that all the grammar and everything was correct. And when I'm going through it, I'm like, Oh, this is so conversational. And,are people going to be, are they going to, are my academics, going to feel like this is too basic, And so then I said, okay, send, content is good. they can talk to us and coach with us. They know that we're real, they'll get it.
\n\nStuart: And that's actually such an interesting point because. The idea of, a conversation starting book, a minimum effective book, is the anti book in a way. It's not this set in stone, typeset by monks, costs 100, 000, in a tone that people wouldn't recognize as you if you then spoke to them on the phone.
\nThis idea of a conversation starting book, which is... Cost effective and time effective to get out there that starts the conversation that reflects the language that you use so that when you do get on the phone with them, because the risk of going off on another tangent, but this idea of a traditionally published book, the
DeLayna: job.
\nIt would have took us forever, Stuart. We wouldn't have never got it done. We would still be, we would still be thinking about it, trying to get it done.
Stuart: Exactly. And to what end the people who purchase or the whole marketplace for traditional books is to make money off the cover price of a book.
\nThe whole purpose of the conversation starting book is you want them to have a conversation with them. The outcome you want is for them to jump on a call and say, Hey, when's the next seminar? And if they walk into the room feeling like they know you already, then that's done a job that. Exceeds the, just the words on the page.
\nIt's, I
DeLayna: agree. Yeah, it's powerful experience. And I was in a mastermind book club and we were meeting every Saturday and we were talking and it's just great. And now we're published what, three months. Oh my gosh, it's powerful. The process is powerful. Now I would just implore anyone to get it.
\nDone. Yeah. Stop thinking about it. Stop talking about it. Stop angsting over it and just do it. Yeah. The
Stuart: idea that you don't know, no plan survives contact with the enemy or what's the Mike Tyson line? Everyone's got a plan until I punched him in the face.
\nYou can go into a book project with an idea of what the outcome will be or how it will be received or which elements will resonate. And there was a show that we did a couple of weeks ago, I think it was with Paul Ross. And he was saying there was a throwaway line almost that he had in the book that he was talking about one particular thing, but.
\n80% of the people who have spoken to him afterwards have all picked up on this one tiny thing. So now he knows that element is such a critical path on the road to people becoming clients. He could have doubled down on a book and not included any of that at all. Or now there's an opportunity for that to be a whole follow up in the funnel or a whole second book focused on that piece individually.
\nIt's, Yeah, getting it out there and reacting and responding to how it actually is received and pivoting and amplifying those pieces. Yeah. so powerful. I just looked up in the top corner of my screen and realized how long I've been talking about the game.
\nYeah. At least this is the second time we've talked. I feel like I've caveated it enough now. and people listening to the podcast understand as well. One of the things I'd really want to encourage people as we started was saying that people follow along with your journey and what you do and then see how the book.
\nanchors in with the rest of the programs, where's the, as people are listening to this, both kind of our clients listening on our podcast feed and your clients who are listening to, if you share it, where's the best place for them to go to learn more about what you guys do and take that next.
\nOh,
DeLayna: watch it on the next step. Two websites. We have Leon and DeLayna. com. That's Leon, L E O N A N D D E L A Y N A. com. and, yeah, Leon and DeLayna, Leon and DeLayna. com. And that's my little tagline, that's first. And then, the, the URL for the book would be powerofonenessbook. com.
\nThat's power of oneness. book, no s book, singular dot com. So start there and then we'll take it right on.
Stuart: Yeah. And like I say, this example, both for people reading the book and consuming the information, because it's fantastically useful and, Mind expanding a little bit in terms of the approach that you take in and the breadth, but also joining along because of this tie in between the business and the seminar and what you do and what you promote in social media and all of the communications with what's in the book.
\nSo we want to encourage people to see that connection because it is, it's, it is very strong. So I'll make sure that we put links to this, both in the podcast show notes. So if people are just listening, that'll be in a. The show notes and they can click through on the website if they're listening and click through to the website.
\nWe'll put the links in there. I think we've covered it all, but any last thoughts on
DeLayna: I think for my Engineers and technology people who don't, not necessarily looking at the relationship piece, world fidelity life is our financial services company here. And,Leon is right there.
\nWe have our photo there, all of our background as far as, as advisors. So if you're looking for specifically, financial advice, for, Okay. Life insurance and annuities. World Fidelity Life is our company. so they can go right there. Ah,
Stuart: perfect. So we'll put a link to that as well.
\nLike you say, some people just want to cut straight to that piece.
DeLayna: Get to the money. Yeah.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, we'll make sure that's there as well. Okay.
\n\nLeon: no, it's been great. I just I've enjoyed the whole process of putting the book together. It's been a dream of mine for oh, 20 plus years, to get this done.
\nAnd now to have it, where it's marketable and to be able to put it out there and, however it's thought of. Our whole heart was to get to talk to the people and to share with them the information that we feel like that changed our lives that can change their lives and finances.
\nWe wanted to start with that finance piece because that's what breaks up so many marriages, as I said before. So the power of oneness. Winning in marriage and money, you can do it all, you can have it all. That's
Stuart: what I love. Thank you. Fantastic. guys, it's been an absolute pleasure. I enjoy it every time we get to talk.
\nWe'll be talking more offline off the podcast, I'm sure. And then it'll be great in a little bit down the track. Get you guys back on and then we can get some, it'd be really interesting to hear some stories of how the book's impacting people, because I really think that's gonna not be eye-opening 'cause I think everyone knows.
\nBut to get that real feedback and hear the stories firsthand, that'd be great to share with people as well. So thank you. Thank you, everyone for thanks for listening. As always, check out the show notes. As I mentioned, we'll put links to. To the websites, in the podcast notes, and on the websites. So check those out and then we will catch you on the next one.
Today on the Book More Show, we have a great conversation with Phil Telpner, author of 'The GenX Guide to Financial Independence,' and owner and lead advisor of Breakout Private Wealth based in Illinois.
\n\nPhil has a great sense of who he can best help and the challenges they face. He starts by sharing his journey in finance and what inspired him to start his own company focused on providing tailored advice to meet the complex needs of Gen X families, especially women.
\n\nUnderstanding his target market helped him create his book to reach out and start conversations with these potential clients.
\n\nHe emphasizes the book's purpose in initiating important conversations by helping readers feel understood and overcoming the inertia of taking their first step.
\n\nWe had a great discussion on how books build meaningful relationships beyond lead generation, highlighting a book's role in referrals, connections and refining his messaging.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/146
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nPhil: I'm great Stuart. How are you?
\n\nStuart: Fantastic, thank you. We were just talking before we hit record and there's some interesting elements around the idea of having a book that's going to come up. So my mind's racing a little bit thinking down that route. But let's start at the beginning and for people who don't know you and the background, why don't you share a little bit about yourself and the organization and then we'll kind of transition into the book world?
\n\nPhil:Of course, my name is Phil Telpner. I'm the owner and lead advisor at my wealth management firm, breakout Private Wealth. We serve the complex needs of Gen X families, specifically I suppose Gen X women. People think somewhere around 45 to 60 or so, right when life really gets complicated, and we'll go into some of that. Perhaps my story is I've been involved in finance, so to speak, my whole life, since I've been 18. First half of my career was as a member of the Chicago Board of Trade. I traded off the floor for a private fund. I did some other stuff was trained, classically trained.
\n\nI guess in this industry by big Wall Street firms Morgan.
\n\nStuart: Stanley oh.
\n\nPhil: I shouldn't say that, but a couple big Wall. Street firms and, quite honestly, stored. It just came to a point where I was so constrained with the advice and way that I can impact and transform, take people from where they are, I suppose, to where they desire to be in that ecosystem sales driven. All that, and right about in the middle of the pandemic, I pretty much had enough and started my own company and I'm grateful that a lot of my clients followed, which is amazing, and we've been going strong.
\n\nStuart: That's the issues and that traditional finance into machine and it can turn people up because it's a hard kind of high pressure environment that's constantly moving, but also, I think, as you identified, the ability to make that personal connection with people and really offer advice and guidance that's specifically tailored to them and not driven by the needs of either sales quotas or what was in scope or out of scope of what you're allowed to sell. It's very constrained and I think a lot of people don't realise customers this is don't realise they're looking at it from the outside, thinking that a financial advisor they just have seen that everyone is fiduciary without knowing what the term even means, which isn't the case.
\n\nPhil: Yeah, no, far from it. It's just it's impossible to provide the right kind of advice when your, I'll say book of business has almost 200 people in it. Some are retired, some are in their 80s, some are in their 20s or 30s, everywhere in between. It's very hard for me. I left work every day feeling I don't know sad's the right word but frustrated that I just wasn't able to go deep enough with the clients to, like I said, impact them the way that I wanted to. Yeah, and like, I guess, in layman's terms, it's about selling more stuff, and selling more stuff has no benefit to the successful outcomes of your clients, really doesn't.
\n\nStuart: Particularly with the experience you've got. I mean, it's not like you want to two years into the career. So having a wealth of experience but not being able to execute on that, I can see why you took the decision to branch out by yourself.
\n\nPhil: Yeah, I wrestled with it for a long time and then, when COVID hit, I had 180 clients, most of them I didn't know, but then, all of a sudden, everybody wanted to know me. So while I did my best, it just reinforced the fact that you know, that's just not the business that I wanted to create for myself in order to really feel like it was a triage. It was like put a band-aid on it and move on.
\n\nStuart: Move to the next one.
\n\nPhil:Yeah, yeah, it wasn't.
\n\nStuart: You know, the ability to have thoughtful conversations, the ability to bring in subject matter, it just wasn't conducive to that Right, but you know, by yourself and kind of tying it in with the book which, as you mentioned, is the odd one. Maybe we didn't mention the title. The title is like the target group that you're working with, so the Gen X Guides of Financial Independence, that group of people you were talking about Gen X families, many female, that group as a target audience, as the group that you knew that you could help. The best was that intentional kind of you left the close the office door of the corporate world and open the other one, intentionally looking after those people. Or is that just what's transpired in the last couple of years and you found yourself doubling down in that group because perhaps it's something that's resonated or there's more, a better opportunity to help that group of people?
\n\nPhil:Great question. So, you know, sometimes, I think, when you're struggling or thinking about a niche, a lot of you know, a lot of times the niche is huge, no, and so a build on this niche and acquire clients, and all that is. I speak their language because, oh, that's me, I'm trying to. You know, career, marriage, aging parents, college, like you name it, and it all converges right at this time and it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming for anybody, and what happens when most people get overwhelmed is they do nothing. And unfortunately, we're too. I want to be careful, I want to say old, but we're too far along in our career where, like, doing nothing isn't an option.
\n\nStuart: Right, the inevitable March of time. I think it's the same as financial services or retirement planning, particularly within that bigger genre. But that and the doctors that we've worked with, in some circumstances at least. Obviously they're also constrained with what they can and can't say. But both of those areas doing nothing and outcome is going to happen. Doing nothing is going to mean that it's probably the least beneficial one. Ideally, starting things 10 years ago would have been the best idea, but we are where we are today and nothing is a bad outcome.
\n\nPhil: But one of the things that started me kind of on this, because of the situation I was in, I would have conversations with somebody, let's say, 10 years past, where I, you know, they're like staring at retirement or whatever, and we're having these just very difficult conversations because their vision of what they want to do now that is not sustainable and of course I have to be the one to tell them that. And the real sad part behind that is, had I had them in my office seven, eight, nine, 10 years ago, we'd be popping champagne right. So you know, it got me thinking, just like. Well, you know, it is such a critical time and we can really make, like I said, such an impact on the trajectory of somebody's financial life, maybe even life, just at the time when they feel most overwhelmed and just for whatever reason, inertia or whatever, just don't quite raise their hand and say I need help.
\n\nStuart: And that's the idea. So we often talk in terms of the books, about this job of work. What's the job of work that a book is doing and it's not? We're not. We're not selling books. Books aren't the product. We're not authors in the sense of fiction authors, where our career is around the books. So the job of work is doing something else and that doing is typically starting a conversation.
\n\nBut it's very interesting to think about from the perspective of having identified in niche, understanding that group of people, understanding what their problems are and what's preventing them from getting the outcome that they want, and then writing something that starts that conversation. So the book itself isn't will of technical advice on stockpicking and the various different retirement options. It's really helping people identify and overcome the inertia, like you were saying, of raising the hand and taking that first step. So was that something that came naturally, as you were kind of working with the team to put the outline together, or did you start from the position of, okay, we need to share some technical stuff and people need to do X, Y and Z, but actually, as it turns out, it's a slightly different conversation?
\n\nPhil: Yeah, no, I had, I think, worked it out prior to us working together that I needed the book. I wanted the book to be there for people to identify and say, hey, this guy gets it. These are my oh, I'm feeling the same way and I'm not alone and oh, I think he can help me. Let me get some more information and that's the that I wanted to write the book like nobody's going to read or have any interest in. You know a 10 step plan to do a backdoor Roth or something. There's people you can do that, right.
\n\nStuart: You can get.
\n\nPhil: Amazon, you can do all that. My goal for this was, like I said, to help people understand that. Number one, you're not alone. And number two, we work with a lot of these people. These are what we see, and all including what we have in our own life, Because, you know, I take off my advisor hat, I have a family and all these other things too, and that you know we can help. And if it's, you know, if that's not for you, then even better, totally cool.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nAnd number two because it's helps people identify who you can help and identify what the next steps are, who you resonate with, why they can resonate with you, identify themselves in the problems and the concerns that are raising and just start that comfortable journey.
\n\nIt's interesting, I think the we always say to people in terms of the funnel, the campaign, and kind of identify people at the first level and then kind of sift and sort of the second level, rather than trying to filter people out too early. But that comes from the perspective of. It's such a subtle difference I'm trying to think of the best wording to describe it that almost comes from a scarcity perspective of people sometimes want to filter out what they perceive as the tire kickers. They don't want to waste time on people who they don't feel they can make the most or get the most value from, as opposed to going out there with something broad that is broadly applicable. But there is an element of self identifying and if not sifting and sorting is a right word, but identifying and that I think, is a good way of thinking about it, much better than I want to write something that excludes the people who I don't want. Instead write the thing that is broadly valuable to the group that you've identified. But then if people don't resonate, that's fine.
\n\nPhil:It's a subtle difference, but yeah, no, I think that makes sense and you know I'm not selling widgets so I don't need. You know, we run a very high touch practice. So, yeah, it is clearly not for everybody and that's totally cool, but for the people it is for Right, it very much is for it is for them, right.
\n\nThe cool thing about that from a professional standpoint is those are really good people for the most part, and really good people attract other really good people, right, and it may business enjoyable work enjoyable Right. It makes me want to work forever and because it's very rewarding, far beyond the P and L of my business. It's very rewarding.
\n\nStuart: I think that's all elements.
\n\nSo oftentimes people will think of a book as kind of like a lead generation tool or a referral orchestrating tool and just think in terms of that kind of first level nuts and bolts of how it works in that campaign.
\n\nBut there's so many subtle elements to the fact that it now exists, one of those being, if someone resonates with the content, by the time you actually get to a phone call or a zoom call, they come into an office I was talking to. We did a podcast probably a couple of months ago now, but Paul the podiatrist was saying that he'll have people come in the office and quote back to him the things that he was saying. So it was no longer the case that he was trying to tell people for the first time they should follow this procedure or take this wellness routine or be mindful of their feet in this situation in a particular way, but people were quoting back. So imagine the same thing is going to happen with you. It's not no longer you having meetings with people where the fact that you're approaching their retirement in a certain way is new or novel. The whole reason that they're there is because they resonate with the ideas that are in the book or in the follow up.
\n\nPhil: Well, that's Wicked Smart, I think the one I'll say book, but everything that comes around the book does the heavy lifting for you. For lack of a better word right and like we just spoke about those people, the invisible. Like they'll raise their hand and by the time that we talk, or they come in, or we grab a breakfast or whatever it is, they're already drinking the Kool-Aid, I guess for lack of a better term right there, already aligned with our values with our way that we run our practice, with the value.
\n\nI don't have to pull out a PowerPoint and like put people to sleep with PowerPoints about how much money you should save, or something like that.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that idea of rapport building, and there's a baseline expectation that anyone who's dealing with a professional services provider they're going to provide that service. There's no one makes a call to someone and with a question of what can you actually do? What you say to the assumption is that you're doing it. So the difference is then either nuance of approach or the report that you're building with them, and I think that's such a leading with the kind of an empathetic approach to here's some broader problems that you might be suffering with or things that you're looking to fix, and a number of those come down to a financial burden or lack of certainty or outstanding questions or concerns. But building that empathy first and going in with hey, we're on the same page, we're suffering from the same problem as here's how we've helped people just like you, that's the thing that builds the report and a book.
\n\nI was talking to someone yesterday saying that they were kind of cross shopping us with some of the organizations and I was saying to them we're absolutely not a publishing company. Although a book is the thing that you end up with, we're not a traditional publishing company in the sense that book sales or ownership or intellectual property or that we want to give all of this back to you and the reason is because we want this to be a living document that you can take and run with and develop and tweak and change as the business is or as the feedback that you get from those real people changes. So that opportunity to build that rapport that we have with the authors and people who are thinking about doing it again comes from wanting to make the most for the other people, just as you are with the clients.
\n\nPhil:That you're bringing in so well said. So, the one thing that I struggled with for a little bit was perfectionism, of course, right, and I finally got to the point where I was pretty confident it was about 80% or so, roughly of the way I wanted it. And then I just said you know, okay, yes, let's go right, and I think you know your point about being able to. So you know what I'll change it. It'll change a little bit based on conversations I have there. I might add some track, you know, and that's totally cool, you have to do it, you have to start right, right, I think that's what people. It's just hard for some people, I guess.
\n\nStuart: And just as I didn't think about particularly thought by this before in this way, but it's come up through. This is why I love these conversations, because there's so many different perspectives and way of thinking about it in the live conversation and the idea that for your clients, the kind of the something that's holding the back from making those decisions either fear or lack of certainty or something around the process or procedure it's exactly the same for the people that we deal with. I mean hundreds and hundreds of people that we speak to, as I've had this idea for years but I've never got around to it. There's a lot of nuts and bolts and annoying little nuances that can trip you up and just you get stuck in the weeds and caught up. But one of the reasons why we intentionally keep the books, so we say to people quite clearly up front this isn't ghost writing.
\n\nWe've got a very specific process that leads to the content, the main reasons we do it that way. Not only does it make the cost more accessible for people, but it brings your tone, your voice, your way of speaking. The nuance in the language that you use in the creation process comes through in the final product, which then ultimately comes through when people walk through the door and talk with you and it's that familiarity, that rapport building. It's such a again a subtle and kind of third or fourth tier difference. But the idea of having something that's 80% good enough, that gets out there and starts the conversation, I mean separate from the whole kind of readership levels out there and the fact that we're not writing these books for entertainment. We're writing these books to help people take the next step and whether they actually read it or whether they just skim it and jump on a call and who not higher over your shoulder there in the back, yeah, talking about perfectionism.
\n\nSo I'm referenced in that book because there's a chapter about Dean, my business partner, and my name's mentioned in there. But I spell my name in the weird British way S T U A R T and in the book is S TE A R T S T W.
\n\nPhil:A R.
\n\nStuart: T, I did not let in perfectionism stop you from putting out there. It's definitely a plus.
\n\nPhil: That's why it's up there. Because, number one, I got a. I'm in a back office, but like that mindset is so important, whether you're, you know, writing a book or hiring a financial advisor is like I work with. I only work with smart people, so are they capable of doing it themselves? Probably is that the way that they want to spend their valuable resource, which is time. You want to do all the all everything that we do for yourself and not go to your kids, game or play or dance or side. I'll have date night, hang out with the boy or whatever your other life is. We are not going to get along anyway. So you know. But for most of my clients, like just being able to know that we are taking care of it and that we're co creating this plan and ongoing discussions with them.
\n\nStuart: And building that relationship over time.
\n\nI think that's the benefit.
\n\nSo you bring in all of the expertise you've got from all of the years of background and distilling that into the thing that is the most beneficial for the particular group of people who've decided you can help the best and through the pages of the book they've identified themselves as having some of those problems.
\n\nThe issues that are in there resonate with them. But to be able to distill all of that expertise into the thing that gets the result for them and then build that report over a longer time, I think that's another element of the book opportunity that is maybe not the one that people think about initially. So a lot of times people are thinking about the lead generation and having the book out there and people will identify and then join the path in. The conversation goes from there. But one of the more subtle opportunities is in referrals and having the book as a thing that existing clients can share with people who they hear talking about, talking about retirement issues or concerns or worries that they have and this whole idea of the book as gift giving and you're enabling your clients to be the hero to their friends by giving something of value, just creating something that has that downstream benefit. I think that's another more subtle element of, as I say, a second or third order element that's often overlooked.
\n\nPhil:Yeah, no, it's really. It's so interesting and I've spent some time on the marketing side of this so you know, having that tangible it's so important, probably in any business, I would guess for sure in a service business where, like, you're buying an outcome but that outcome isn't in 2024, most likely.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nPhil: Let's just say you're buying peace of mind, right, peace of mind is an overtime thing, right? And your comment on rapport couldn't be more spot on. And people forget. In my business, clients die, right, you know, maybe not the first phone call, but we're up there. Yeah, you know, things happen and divorce, all these life things that happen. We're on the front lines of all of those things. So, having that conversation, being able to have rapport, feeling comfortable with your advisor, knowing that you'll get a prompt return phone call, all these things are, you know, talk about like next level to the business, way more valuable than your asset allocation or something like that. That's table stakes at this point.
\n\nStuart: That's the point, isn't it? It's table stakes because, especially as we're moving into a interesting time in history where the opportunity that AI provides to do a whole load of base level things across the board some of them, a lot of them, may be better than people could do, but the thing that is, it's the relationship side of things and the actual understanding, not the knowledge, but the way that knowledge is implemented. For many service businesses, that is going to be a key differentiator over the next three, four, five years, as things kind of stabilize, to whatever new reality turns out to be. And I think the opportunity to create something in a book, where a book has a different, there's a psychological humans attribute a psychological value to a book as opposed to a document on a screen. But to be able to create something like that in a way that shares your opinion and your values and for those people who it resonates with, that's the connection. There's such a big separator between the people who, I think, understand that and those who are maybe looking at AI as a shortcut to not do the work. That's not going to be successful for them.
\n\nThere's going to be a whole load of baseline stuff that's just now out there. Like I wish you remember, there's a chart out there that shows the available hours of YouTube content since 2003,. Four whenever it started, and it just goes up into the trillions of areas of content. But if you were to have some kind of qualitative measure on that, not just a quantitative measure, that's going to be the same for content for everyone going forward.
\n\nSo those people who, those business owners who do nothing, are just going to get left further behind, because the next group up, the people who do the minimum possible automatically generated stuff, which is still better than the current level, but it's still not quite as good as doing individual stuff. So do nothing to get left behind. Do the bare minimum of just automated stuff okay, maybe, keep up. But if you've got the opportunity to create something that really is making a personal connection with people and then use AI to kind of augment it and distribute it in a more effective way or create variations on the theme in a more effective way, because it's scalable. But this idea of authoring your ideas in your way, of presenting it, passing that to actual other real human beings, that, I think is going to be the separator over the next period.
\n\nPhil:I would agree 100%. There are certain things in life you need to be able to look somebody in the eye and have a conversation and understand somebody. And AI, like you said, for some things, I think in a lot of ways, the more people are going to rely on that, the more they're going to crave for AI to AI, personal connection. The further away we get away from personal connections, the more I think people feel disjointed, not connected. I mean, like, pick on Facebook, right, I mean it's trying to connect people, but do you really feel connected? Or when you go for a beer with somebody, do you feel connected? Right? Or for coffee, commenting on somebody's adorable kids is great, but it's not a substitute for, hey, let's go grab a cocktail or something like that, and we're humans. I mean, we need personal interaction, right, we need that.
\n\nStuart: And, as you say, not every industry is going to be the third or fourth in the list for that phone call when something traumatic does happen. But in our own ways we're all on the spectrum of that connection and really trying to help. And I think for the majority of people who we work with, for the majority of people who you're dealing with, it's a subset of the bigger community. We're not high volume businesses, we're high touch businesses and to be able to have the book there as the start of that conversation, to show that, to demonstrate that it's something that you care about and you're passionate about, it's a separator for that subset of people who have the opportunity to enter your world, your sphere of influence. It just starts everything off on the right foot. We should check back at some point in the future because we're just we're just getting to the point that your book's being finished. So the marketing bit we're just kind of starting that journey. We haven't got there's not some strong feedback to share with the world.
\n\nYes, we should definitely check back on that. But one of the things I did want to touch on that you mentioned just before we started recording was almost like a pre-release, even before the book's done and out there and there's no. It's kind of like don't tell anyone. This isn't an official marketing campaign, but still, you made a couple of posts about the book and that it was just about finished and coming soon. Do you want to talk a little bit about what happens kind of unintentionally?
\n\nPhil: Yeah, so I was sitting on my deck on a Sunday afternoon and I pulled up a copy of the cover and I'm staring at it going should I do it? Should I do it? I don't know what. Okay, so I'm fairly active on LinkedIn, so I just put the picture up there and said coming soon and first 10 DMs or whatever, get a free copy in one to two weeks or whatever it's available. I mean my, it exploded. And I did the same thing on Facebook, but I'm not active on Facebook, barely at all. And same thing on Facebook and same exact, and these are one post on each platform.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nPhil: Same, exact. I know I walk into the gym in the mornings they're calling me Hemingway and stuff like that. So, like you know, I mean Dean always talks about invisible prospects, right, and that's kind of anecdotally what I've seen. People that you know I mean I know, but don't whatever are all of a sudden somehow pulled into my orbit or my sphere of influence, if you will. Whatever, literally just for one post.
\n\nStuart: Right and almost the I mean it wasn't.
\n\nPeople get so ramped up in their heads around the campaign and what to be structured and what's the followup and all of these details, which is almost kind of like a psychological procrastination against doing something.
\n\nJust quickly throwing a post up there just with a cover shot and saying, hey, come and see me if you want a copy, and again a hundred or so people replying and saying, hey, yeah, I'm in, send that to me. And it's difficult to tell the downstream impact of that. Who then shares that with someone else and talks to someone else, and almost from the smallest effort. And this is why books at the moment and for the foreseeable future, I think, have such a outsized value or outsized opportunity to share, over and above the actual effort or cost to create something. It really is this idea that it's. It's a great way of starting a conversation. It's a great way of showing how much you care by the words you've included in the advice or guidance that is put in there and it helps people who resonate with that idea. A clear next step to start that conversation and move it forward.
\n\nPhil: It's like you said about AI the more people consume podcasts and all these other digital formats which are amazing the more impressive or cool or whatever word you wanna use it is when you're holding a physical copy Right Of the book. It's like so the same thing, like we discussed with AI, perhaps, where the more valuable that human connection becomes.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nPhil: The more valuable that book becomes. So that's kind of my theory on it and, like I said, I'm not here to get 10,000 clients, so I mean, you know. So it just though the whole goal was to have it help some people. If it does, to inspire somebody to say, oh, this firm, this guy kind of gets me a little bit. I'm going through that too. Let me see if he can help me. Awesome, yeah, and it was fun. You guys made it fun. All my interactions with you, your team were very helpful and you know, just like I said before, us entrepreneurs could be a little crazy, so your team's got a lot of patience too, which is appreciated.
\n\nStuart: Well, I appreciate it. It's always exciting to get people on the phone talking to the progress to the project and progressing towards having it done at the end, Because one of the best things is to see people when they actually receive the copies and it's there and done and this thing that's been on their mind for a period of time and now gets completed, and now we can move on to the next stage in the really exciting bit of getting it out there in front of people, sharing the message, starting the conversations, and that's what that makes us excited to get to that stage. So, whatever we can do to help facilitate that and get through the pain in the neck bit so that it's out there in the world yeah, no it was.
\n\nPhil: here's something else I'll just add real quick as we're wrapping up. Maybe your listeners will find value to this.
\n\nStuart: One of the things that this whole process helped me was to refine my messaging.
\n\nPhil: So just the whole process of having to talk about it, having to write about it a little bit, helped me clarify my message, helped me think deeper about my perspective, clients or who I could help the most, and I don't even, couldn't even put a price tag on that. So I probably owe you like tens of thousands of dollars more, but honestly, I mean I was thinking about that the other day how interesting that was for me, because it did force me to stop and think and, like clarify my thoughts and communicate, and there's somebody that has to communicate with prospects and clients.
\n\nThat's what. I do improving the clarity of those conversations is so valuable.
\n\nStuart: Actually that's a great point. It's necessities for the mother in invention. So you're forced to sit down and go through that exercise for the purpose of creating the book and now you've got 50, 60, 70 pages, eight, nine chapters of those subheadings, the bullets, the important things that people talk about, where that clarity of thinking is just more front of mind because you had to go through the process in order to get it down on the page. It's a great added bonus that again in and of itself will have legs and benefits outside of just individual project Because, as you're talking more broadly about it and making those connections and spreading message in different ways, it just all ties back to this 10-pole asset that you've now got of the book. That makes the language and the consistency of the framework and the methodology and the approach. It just really ties it together in a nice bow that's got a good-looking cover on it.
\n\nPhil: Yeah, it's great, yeah, no.
\n\nStuart: Where can people find out more about the practice? And you want to make sure that people, as they're listening, can check out what you're doing over time.
\n\nPhil:Oh, that's very kind. So breakout private wealth is the name of our company, so you can hit the website brandigoutprivatewealthcom. I'm active on LinkedIn. So Phil Telbner, breakout private wealth. Through the website you can jump in and we keep 15-minute time slots or so open for anybody to jump in through the website and we'll just chat a little bit. Fantastic. Most of the time I can help answer a few questions or guide you and guide people in the right direction. That's cool. If it makes sense, they have another conversation.
\n\nThat's cool too, and the book coming out soon check social and all that good stuff for the book. We're putting together not just the book but a whole Gen X financial independent toolkit that's gonna come with the book too. So it's gonna be some cool stuff. I'm psyched. I'll send you one.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that'd be fantastic. I'll make sure that I put, but I'm definitely not in the sweet spot of Gen X Me right.
\n\nYeah, yeah, that's that drum beat of the marching time I can hear in the background as well. I'll make sure that we put links to the website and your LinkedIn profile on the show notes for the podcast and on the podcast feed as well, so as people are listening or watching along, they can just click through and connect. I highly recommend doing that. And then, as we get more into the full release and put some of those marketing steps in place, it'd be really great to have you back on and we can talk a little bit more kind of about the strategies that you've used and some of the more nuts and bolts of getting it out there and share with people how that's been going.
\n\nPhil::Oh yeah, I love it. It'd be fun.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, Phil. Thanks again for your time. These always go fast. Enjoy the rest of the week, Everyone listening or watching along. Definitely check out the links to Phil's business and the LinkedIn profile, and then we will catch everyone in the next one.
\n\nPhil:Thank you.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we have a great conversation with Phil Telpner, author of 'The GenX Guide to Financial Independence,' and owner and lead advisor of Breakout Private Wealth based in Illinois. \r\n\r\nPhil has a great sense of who he can best help and the challenges they face. He starts by sharing his journey in finance and what inspired him to start his own company focused on providing tailored advice to meet the complex needs of Gen X families, especially women.\r\n\r\nUnderstanding his target market helped him create his book to reach out and start conversations with these potential clients.\r\n\r\nHe emphasizes the book's purpose in initiating important conversations by helping readers feel understood and overcoming the inertia of taking their first step.\r\n\r\nWe had a great discussion on how books build meaningful relationships beyond lead generation, highlighting a book's role in referrals, connections and refining his messaging.","date_published":"2023-08-30T11:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/6a8d720e-9875-4524-8583-7d30677370fd.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37705042,"duration_in_seconds":2302}]},{"id":"e545cee7-eb04-4c95-93a6-b3c5c46739a4","title":"Ep145: Don't Leave Money on the Table with Michael Soos","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/145","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we have a great conversation with Michael Soos, author of Don't Leave Money on the Table, and a consultant who helps financial advisors create more effective Social Security and Medicare solutions for their clients.\n\nMichael has a wealth of experience and talks about the opportunities advisors have in partnering with a specialist to deliver more value for their clients and create larger income streams for their businesses.\n\nHis book is an excellent example of introducing a new idea to people rather than discussing a problem they want to solve. Financial advisors are what we refer to as 'visible prospects' because you can get a list or access that group directly compared with 'invisible prospects' who aren't identified in a list or group for us, for example, people feeling unsure about their Social Security options. Michael uses his book to introduce the idea they are leaving money on the table by not having the capability to offer more comprehensive services and, of course, offers a solution to help.\n\nWe also talk about Michael's 5x5x5 outreach strategy, something that can be amplified with a book and something I'd recommend everyone steal!\n\nI really enjoyed this conversation & you'll get many ideas on how to use a book in your business, especially if you're talking with peers.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nThe episode features financial expert Michael Soos who offers deep insights into the complexities of Social Security and Medicare.\nMichael highlights the lack of knowledge within the financial services industry regarding Social Security and Medicare claiming strategies.\nHe emphasizes the need for financial advisors to understand their clients' journeys and find their own niche within the industry.\nThe podcast explores the changing landscape of retirement income, focusing on the stark difference between retirement models of today and those from a few decades ago.\nMichael also shares his experience of writing a book about Social Security and Medicare, touching on the challenges of condensing complex financial knowledge into a digestible format.\nThe podcast delves into the power of books and social media as tools for content amplification and relationship building.\nWe discuss how to create engaging content around a book and use social media to get it in front of the right audience.\nMichael emphasizes the importance of using persuasive language and understanding the customer journey to ensure the message resonates with the right people.\nWe explore the strategy of leveraging books as a business tool, discussing the five by five method for maximizing a book's impact.\nThe episode concludes with the idea of partnering with complementary, non-competing businesses to get a book in front of the right audience.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nMichael Soos - LinkedIn\nSoos Consulting Group\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/145\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart Bell\nHey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here again in a rather hot Pennsylvania, so hopefully the lights and the closed windows and the AC off isn't going to make us perspire too much, but excited to share this one with you. We've got another guest author with us, michael Seuss. Michael, how you doing. \n\nMichael Soos\nI'm doing great, stuart. Thanks for having me on. \n\nStuart Bell\nPleasure. I'm excited this is going to be a slightly different take on a subject that perhaps has come up before in the podcast. So our client base, in part because of our relationship with Strategic Coach, crosses over with Financial Advisors a lot, which is the business that you're in. But the book takes a slightly different angle to that. It's not necessarily a consumer facing book, it's more of a peer to peer book. So why don't you start by giving a bit of background about you and the business and then we can transition to the book? \n\nMichael Soos\nSure I would love to. You know I've spent 34 years in the financial services industry with a, you know, major Fortune 500 company. You know, in my tenure there I, you know what I realized very quickly was spending a lot of time with financial advisors, financial planners, cpas, attorneys. You know I don't want to say this in a negative way, but there was really a lack of knowledge and understanding around social security, claiming strategies, successful claiming strategies and their knowledge of Medicare. American College also did a study I think this was years ago where they found out that there was about 17% of financial advisors in the industry that actually felt comfortable talking about social security and Medicare with their clients. \n\nSo you know, I've been doing this for a long time. It actually started about 20 years ago with my father, who was 63 at the time and trying to make decisions on what to do with Medicare. There was no real guidance and there was nobody to help my dad and he was just asking neighbors and friends what you know, what they should do. Obviously it's not probably the best advice you should get. So you know, I saw that as a challenge and just really the reason I wrote the book was to provide some guidance and understanding to financial advisors about those claiming strategies so they can help their clients. It's really sort of a you know, a do it all book, you know do it yourself book, but for financial advisors to help their clients understand those strategies. \n\nStuart Bell\nThat's the thing understanding the audience of the book, making an assumption of what their baseline knowledge is, so that you're not having to. You can up the level of the content because you're positioning this out of the financial advisor, so it doesn't have to be quite as one-on-one level as it would be if you were writing it for your dad. I was always fascinated. There's a good friend, dale, a marketing guy in Australia. I remember him saying years and years ago there's no niche too small. And at the time the marketing example is around picking very small niches in order to market too, and it's always continued to go smaller than bigger. You can always go smaller than you think. The same goes with financial services. I mean Social Security, medicare is one of those pieces of the puzzle which I've seen that most customers out there think that all financial advisors know all there is to know about this subject. But it's not until you start looking at it that you realize how deep it goes. \n\nMichael Soos\nYeah, it goes very deep and there's a lot of information. I mean, if you just Google Social Security and the Medicare, there's a lot of information out there and you just really don't know where to go or where to turn. But I'll give you a great point of reference. Most advisors don't feel as if they should lead with Social Security and Medicare, and when you think about the average client who may be approaching retirement, the number one thing on their mind is really not their investments per se. It's when do I start my Social Security benefits, how much does Medicare cost, when should I start Medicare and how does that tie into my overall financial plan? So there's a lot of complexities. \n\nI think it's not just you just turn it on and start collecting it and it's that easy. I think it's for advisors. I think it's an overall part of an overall financial plan Sitting down with your clients and figuring out how much income do they need, when do they need it, what's their longevity in their household, what's their health history. There's a lot of different complexities or questions that they can ask and frankly, it leads to a lot of what we call product solutions maybe life insurance or annuities or other types of solutions that might tie in to help them if something happens. So I've taken a great passion at this because of what happened with my dad 20 years ago. But what I'm starting to realize is, through all the questions and all the calls I keep getting from financial advisors saying, can I pick your brain or can I ask you a question? That's why I wrote the book. I wrote it as a guide, really to help advisors help their clients make those important life changing decisions. \n\nStuart Bell\nRight and those important life changing decisions. They are very real decisions. People coming to the conversation. Customers are coming to the conversation at the point in time where they're not 20, they don't have a long runway in order to make changes to decisions. It's this point in the journey, the decisions, that may now really make quite a substantial difference to what their outcome is. When the journey of coming to write the book you mentioned was coming from a lot of the questions that you were getting from other financial advisors, those questions were they just within a peer group and it was just peers asking peers, or was that in the more structured framework, you were going out and soliciting or become known as the go-to person around Social Security and Medicare for financial advisors? \n\nMichael Soos\nI actually didn't even know I was going to write a book or, to be honest with you, this came to me from another financial planner who had written a book with 90 minute books and suggested that with all my knowledge that I had on this topic, that I might want to consider that. So I'm not a writer, I'm a good speaker. I've done a lot of presentations before in front of people, but where I came to realize how important it was is that not only was I talking to financial advisors, but I was talking to CPAs attorneys and they were asking me questions and they were inquiring about these strategies and that just told me it's a much bigger issue beyond financial advisors. So if I can help them just understand sort of an encyclopedia of information and then they can consult with me or call me and then I can help them a little bit more, I think that's important. \n\nBut I want to make one point that I think is real important and that is if you looked like 20 or 30 years ago, the state of our retirement system is much different than it was today because many people that were retiring with a defined benefit pension plan you know probably 70, 75% of the people working were retiring from their company and they got a pension plan, which is a guaranteed paycheck for life, and then they had Social Security so that's another guaranteed paycheck that they could receive. \n\nAnd then they had very smaller nest egg. 401ks weren't really even relevant back then, 20 or 30 years ago and they had a small nest egg that they really, you know, relied on. Well, if you think about today, back then there was about 16 workers for every retiree paying into the system and paying taxes. Today there's less than three workers per retiree. People aren't getting pensions anymore. I mean, just ask any company that's hiring. If you ask them what their benefits are, they'll say, well, we have a good, a nice lucrative 401k. And you say, well, what about the pension? And they say, well, we don't have a pension. \n\nOur companies aren't hiring and younger folks today aren't retiring or won't retire with the pension, so they'll have Social Security. It's more of a reliance on that income and then they're going to have to rely on the money that they save or they invest. It was a much you know. Again, it's a much different model than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Social Security was never designed to be your only source of income when you retire. It was designed as a supplement to your existing retirement plan. So you have to look and engage with your advisor or your planner and find out. You know, what other sources of income do I have? \n\nStuart Bell\nAnd that's an interesting point, isn't it? The design of the system in the first place was never intended to be the sole purpose, because the understanding back then was there were large companies, corporations that were predominantly taking care of the short amount of time that you lived outside of once you'd retired. But the situation now where the responsibility is put back I mean it's not even put back on the individual, it's almost so. As you can tell from the accent, I'm not a local, but oftentimes you hear the this is going to open a can of worms. \n\nI'm only very superficially touching on it, but one of the big things that you hear in the US is our Europeans socialist countries and we don't want socialism. It's the worst possible thing in the world. But in a number of cases, like healthcare and retirement and the two that spring to mind, there was previously a situation where there wasn't socialized care here, but corporations were expected to take care of it. Now we're in a situation where everyone fights against the socialization of it. It doesn't want to get companies, doesn't want to have government involved, but it's also either oblivious or quite happy that companies are no longer involved either. So where the gap falls on the individual, who is probably, out of the three, the least capable, except at the extremes, the least capable of doing anything about it. \n\nMichael Soos\nSo Well, I'll simplify this for you if you don't mind. I mean and I talked to a lot of advisors about this too you know whether you're retired or you're working Um, it's pretty simple on how you spend your money. Okay, so you have discretionary and non discretionary spending, and I'll give you the example. Discretionary spending you know might be, you know the vacations or the golf, or you like to drink wine, or you know whatever you want to do. You know that's discretionary. That's up to you on how you spend that money. \n\nNon discretionary is your. You know your mortgage, your car payment, your taxes, your bills, your utilities, all those things that you have to pay for. You know I call it the difference between you know the things you have to pay for and the things you want to pay for. Right, the difference. But if you think about the things you have to pay for that non discretionary spending, you need a guaranteed source of income and I can't stress that enough you need a guaranteed paycheck. You're not working anymore. Therefore you need a guaranteed paycheck coming in every month To pay your bills, pay your mortgage, pay your expenses. Even if your mortgage is paid off, you still have insurance, you still have taxes. You still have, you know, other expenses and upkeep. \n\nSo the way I just try to simplify it for a lot of folks is you know you need a sense of guaranteed income to cover your non discretionary Expenses, anything above and beyond that. If you don't have, if you have a gap or you need to pay for additional Cost, then you have to create either create your own annuity or create your own guaranteed source of income. You know, to complement that or supplement that. So I mean I try to simplify that because I think a lot of folks don't realize that they need A guaranteed source of income and there's only three. There's only three that folks can rely on Social security, a pension we talked about that before and you know their own nest egg which they can turn into an annuity Ensured by an insurance company that can give them a guaranteed source of income or guaranteed growth. So you know, again, it's education. I always say education without implementation is just entertainment. It's kind of a funny. \n\nStuart Bell\nYeah. \n\nMichael Soos\nYou know, if you just tell somebody something and they don't do anything about it, or they don't do anything with the Information, you just entertain them for right. \n\nStuart Bell\nIt's not going to move the needle and they have their impending gap that's coming up Exactly this. So we often talk about writing a book, as the book's not the product. The product is the conversation that you're getting in with people. A number of people will write Specifically with a lead generation campaign in mind. I want to attract those outbound customers. That's not your situation. You're most filling a need that was there already, but I think this idea of the book is starting. \n\nThe conversation applies just as much, because you could write a textbook Three inches thick trying to cover absolutely everything, but what you've done is positioned it at the right level to give some knowledgeable people Further information. That takes them a step closer, but still it's pretty obvious if they want to really master the subject or go deep, there's more than could be contained in the pages of the book. So did you have, as you were thinking about pulling it together? Did you actually think about what that limit was? What makes sense to be in the book and what is? Maybe it's just going to get into the weeds? \n\nMichael Soos\nYeah, you know, I sat down at you know again, not knowing how to write a book. You know I created the outline and figured out you know what were the most important chapters that I needed to focus on. So, yeah, you know, knowing that there's a lot of information out there, I wanted to simplify it. Give folks, you know, sort of the most important aspects of Social Security and Medicare without you know, without overwhelming them in the book, but also use it almost as a business card or a calling card to have folks call me directly or book a Consultation. Or, you know, give me a call or go to my website or go to my company site and say you know, I need more information or I'd like more information. I want to talk to you a little bit. \n\nI don't expect people to read my book and become experts overnight. I mean, I didn't become an expert overnight. What I do expect them to do is to read it and say you know, can I take action on this? Can I? Is this giving me enough information to say it's important to me and my clients for me to contact Michael Right to have a conversation. It doesn't cost anything to have a conversation with someone. Have a conversation. If you want to go further, we can go further with that, but that's why I, you know that's I use the book, or, you know, I guess, creating the book in mind as an entree, you know, to my business, to open up the door for more people to contact me. \n\nStuart Bell\nWhich I think is the best approach that 99% of people and 100% of people listening to this can take. Because, just as you start off by saying in the call, you're not a writer. But we often say to people, if you were a writer, you'd already do this Right, not your business and your financial advisor. What you've got is a lot of good ideas based on all of your experience and all of the knowledge that you've gained over the years. So authoring that idea is separate from the task of having to write it and get it into a book. I think that holds up a lot of people. They do think that they need to be a writer in order to create Something bound together and have pages. But really, what social security, medical may be great examples of it. Even further, because All of the information, just the pure information, is available in government Panplates and books. It is, it's black and white, is what is. But the way that you've authored the idea and brought them together and structured it, and then how you take people when they do phone, through further steps and help them get to that next level, that's really authoring a good idea. \n\nThe financial services, the other financial services clients that you work with the other advisors. I'm guessing they're coming to you with all sorts of different levels of understanding In terms of converting a lead that you might get. Who's read the book and reached out for a call Into a client who's actually doing some work? Is your business set up? We've got a relatively formulaic program that brings people on it. They kind of buying a Michael product or is it more of like a service-based thing and you know generally what they're trying to get to? \n\nMichael Soos\nbut it's very tailored for each individual person at the end of the day, they're buying me right because I'm the product, I'm the service Right. So at the end of the day, I'm leveraging a lot of the relationships I've had over 34 years, people that already know me. I'll give you a great example. My last name is a little bit unique. You mentioned about Europe. My, my name has the orientation in Hungary. That's pronounced shosh in Hungary, in Hungarian, but it means of salt, or of the ground or of salt. \n\nBut a lot of people know me by my last name. It's a unique name backwards, forwards, upside down. It's. A lot of people don't even know my first name, they just know my last I. So I created my company in mind. You know, with my last name, people that know me that can come to me and Ask me information or ask me you know anything about. You know social security, and these are folks that already I've already had a relationship with or they've put me in front of their clients or they put me in front of their CPA or their attorney. Obviously I'm trying to forge new relationships and you know the great way of doing that is with the book right. \n\nYeah get them to read the book. And I'm to understand that you know I am sort of a resident expert in this, in this field, and that if they want to continue going forward, I don't charge anything for my initial consultation or an initial group meeting. If they want me to come in and talk to a Group of advisors or folks, just to see you know, are you interested? Do I have value? And if you find value in what I do, then we can proceed forward. But that's pretty much how I set it up. \n\nStuart Bell\nThat's that idea of having a hook around the name and anyone watching the video can see it on their shirt there. That idea of having the hook around the name, it's almost disarming. I used to say when I was in and out of the I've been permanently in the US since 2018, it's 23 as we record now. Prior to that, I was in and out for a number of years and in a number of meetings when I was following up with people, I'd always put in the signature or the British guy with the beard, because in a room full of Americans, when you're meeting 10 new people, they might remember the guy with the weird accent and the beard as opposed to everyone else who was there. So I really love the idea of having a hook because it just kind of gets the conversation going. There's a little bit of history around the name and what it means and it's easy for people to ask questions and start the conversation. \n\nThe thought of now that the book is complete, you've got the existence, free of influence and the people who know you, like you, entrust you already. You've got the opportunity when meeting people you can hand it out or follow up with people afterwards. But the idea of now that the book is created, it's the flagpole around which a lot of other content can be created. One of the things I really like to talk to people about, particularly where they've got a very targeted market, is the idea of, for example, linkedin marketing. \n\nUnless we're a champion addict, which most of us aren't, it's always a bit of a headache to think it's something they have to remember to do. But having the book created now in a way that you can just excerpt individual lines or sentences or the key phrase and then elaborate and illuminate it with hey, if this was interesting, there's more. Just get a copy of the book here. Have you thought about that level of not LinkedIn necessarily, but that level of using the content to get out there? Are there any ways that you're excited to try or have tried and have got some traction? \n\nMichael Soos\nYeah, like I think we were speaking personally before, I've done a podcast ready in Atlanta, georgia, with a really good friend of mine who's a mortgage broker and wanted to interview me. He's got a pretty wide audience. So I went down to his home. He's got a video studio in his home and we did a podcast probably a 45 minute podcast on social security and Medicare. But what he also taught me was to create these little snippets of video clips, and so what I did is create sort of a mini video studio in my home. \n\nI don't know much about it, but doing little clips on excerpts and from my book and just simply doing the excerpts and then getting them out on social media, whether it be Facebook or Instagram or whether it be LinkedIn. I have a pretty large network of contacts on my LinkedIn as well and I find that reaches a lot of folks. I'm getting a lot of people messaging me back saying, hey, can I get a copy of your book? Hey, when it comes out, can you send me a copy of it? And it hasn't even come out yet and they want it. So I think using social media today, versus maybe what we did 20 years ago when we didn't have it. I think I'm leveraging that as a tool to get in front of a lot more people. \n\nStuart Bell\nAnd in a very amplifying and efficient way. I mean, when you think about it, a weekly message, 52 messages to go out. Okay, triple that three times a week. You want to send out a message three times a week 152. No one's going to remember the content even halfway through that cycle. So you could even cut that back to 75 messages, repeat them and no one's going to point out and say, hey, I remember on July the 27th you said exactly the same thing. What's going on? I mean that just doesn't happen. \n\nSo there's the opportunity. You've gone out to amplify the book and just take those excerpts, even if you did it like lay the track as you go for the first six months, but now you've got 10 years worth of perpetual content all tied around this one main asset that you become known for and it's self-supporting. I like the idea of this. I think it's a persuasion. It's in persuasion. Robert Chaldini's book, where talks about kind of laying the track three or four steps ahead, often talk about this idea of imagine the customer journey a year down the track. So they've seen a piece of media. They didn't know you before. They've seen a piece of media that resonates with them. They've requested to copy the book and the language is mirrored, in that you're sending them an email sequence to try and engage them in the first instance, and the language is mirrored again. Then they'll reach out to schedule something and the person that's scheduling the thing, or the text on the page where they're scheduling a meeting, again represents or reflects the same language. \n\nNow they eventually, after all of these stages, they're either sat down in front of you or, like we are on zoom, and you start talking to them and saying, okay, the key thing about social security is this idea of needing an annuity, you need a fixed income because you've got all these non-discretionary things that you don't want to stay up at night. They're not hearing that for the first time. It's not getting on a call with Susan. It's the first time that you're hearing it, it's the eighth time. They've heard it in all sorts of different ways. \n\nAnd the likelihood of them taking action the point you made before we're not doing this for entertainment, we're doing it for education and movement, all of these persuasion things with all of the authority that books brings to it and all of the authority that social media at presence brings to it. But the fact that when they sit down in front of you. You know eight, nine, ten steps down the process. That, I think, is something that is so undervalued, because people think about writing a book, because they want to write a book, they don't necessarily think about all that. They want something to have in a campaign, they don't necessarily think of all of it. But yeah, that idea of really reinforcing your approach is a game changer. \n\nMichael Soos\nI'll give you a great example, and I've been using this for 20 plus years now, even with the evolution of social media. I called it my five by five campaign and essentially what that meant was is if I wanted to reach, let's say, 125 people, I could obviously take 125 copies of my book and send it out today. But I would also challenge you that if all 125 of those people picked up my book and said they want to reach Michael Seuss and called me, I don't have the capacity to follow up with 125 people. So I created this concept of five by five, which simply breaks it into three parts. It breaks it into an email, sending it out directly through the mail, and then follow up with a phone call. So email send it out and then a phone call, and I do five people a day, five days a week, times five weeks. At the end of those five weeks I measure what my results are or what the progress was at the end of those five weeks. \n\nNow, if you think about that, if I send out five on Monday and they receive five copies of my book and I follow up with them, let's say, on Wednesday or Thursday, I only have to make five phone calls. If I make five phone calls, I follow up with those five people. When I might get two or three of them that are interested the next day, I just do it all over again. Follow up with five. Again, I have the capacity to do five. I don't know if I have the capacity to do 125 right and the overwhelm. \n\nStuart Bell\nI mean going into it thinking, okay, I've got, I just need to do these five things today and I'm only going to do it for five weeks and then, if I hate it, I can never touch it again. But it's a commitment that's doable. Going into something with a list of 125 names, I mean that's overwhelming. Even generating the list in the first place, that's an interesting question actually. So this idea of reaching out to those five, or to get the 5555 in terms of the names that you reach out to, is that for someone listening thinking, hey, that's a great idea. I'm not a financial advisor, I'm not in Michael's neck in the woods, but I want to steal it. But where do you typically get those names from? Are they existing clients you're re-engaging with, or lists that you're buying, or well, it's really dependent on your market. \n\nMichael Soos\nReally depending, stuart. You know, in my market I have a network of financial advisors. I mean I can go down my street here and there's, you know, 30 financial advisors up and down my street. So you know, you could either go in, you know, go and look up financial advisors in your area and if there's somebody with a different market or a different business, they can do the same thing or they can use their existing network. I mean I'll challenge everybody on this call. \n\nI mean I'm sure if I asked you and I said you had to do it, in order to write your book you have to come up with a list of 125 names, you would write down 125 names, whether you knew them personally or you didn't. You would come up with those names and that's where you really start with that list. Scratch them off if you don't really want them, but you know, create the list and then figure out. There's no importance over who are the first five, who are the second five, it doesn't matter, it's just having a process. Yeah, and most people they start marketing and they don't measure their progress, they don't measure how successful that marketing is. That's why it did the five by five, because after five weeks I can sit down and study it, observe it, understand it. You know, did I have success with it? Do I need to do ten a day? Do I need to do three a day? Do I need to switch it up a little bit? You know I can change it if I want to do that right, but I think you know, not just to give you a plug on 90 minute books, but, going back to what we said before, I'm not a writer, I'm a speaker, I'm an educator. I've been in the business a long time. I know what I know and I know how I want to communicate it, but I didn't know that I could actually write a book before. \n\nI mean, I thought it was a very complicated process. I have to give 90 minute books a lot of. I know you didn't ask me to do this, but I have to give them a lot, a lot of praise because they made the process very simple, very easy. And doing the transcription, you know, interviewing you and just going through. You know that was a lot easier for me than sitting down and writing my own book on my own. You know, just going through and editing the transcription and then, once we edit it, you realize it's actually, and now and now it's a book or the contents of a book, and then you can add to it, delete from it, take away from it. You know whatever you want to do. It made the process so much easier for me. But, as you know, you have to invest in yourself and invest in your business. So if you're not, then you're not going to get anything out of it. But I give I give 90 minute a lot of credit. I would have never done it if I had not engaged with your company. \n\nStuart Bell\nAppreciate it. I mean, this is when, just before we started to recording, I was kind of giving you the background and saying that we're doing more guest interviews now with authors because, if nothing else, people for the first hundred or so episodes, I can only say you should write a book so many times. But one of the I guess, not surprising but certainly unanticipated benefits of doing it was the enthusiasm that people bring to the calls and the real life stories and examples of how people are using or plan to use it, the fact that it's done, it being a thing that they would never get around to doing. So I mean, I don't often think about the kind of world-changing opportunity that we've got, but now, having done over a thousand books, that's a thousand ideas that the majority of them wouldn't have got out there, and definitely not out there in that way and not by that person, were it not for, like I said, the straightforward process that we've got in taking what is perceived to be a big, difficult process and just stripping it down into the most kind of like lean, effective version to be able to use in something like the five by five funnel and just go back to that. I'm going to credit you when I steal this idea and share it with people in the future. \n\nBut I often have strategy calls with people as they've got to them in the process and I've got five things which are low hanging fruit that everyone can do, which stem from a number of calls, but this isn't on that list. I'm going to add it now. How straightforward is it? Like I say, anyone can create that list. When we were talking mentally, that immediately came up as a block for me oh yeah, that's that I could do that. That definitely sounds like something I could and should do. \n\nOh, but the list, the list. But you immediately got rid of that barrier because if I was forced to write down 125 names, I could do it. If I didn't want to do that, I could give it to one of the team and they could do it. If they didn't want to do it, I could give it to someone on up desk, or I work, work rather and outsource it and probably in July 2023, I could go to chat TTP and get chat TTP to give me a reasonable first draft. So just to be able to get that done and then reaching out becomes straightforward. And what a benefit. It'll be interesting once the books. Like you mentioned, we're just in the final stages of wrapping up the book, but it'll be really interesting to check back in six months or 12 months and say okay, you've got the stats from a five by five three years ago, when you were using something else. What differences it made now that, on the delivery stage, you're actually delivering your own book. That'll be really interesting to hear. \n\nMichael Soos\nWell, and think about it. You know, in order for me to do five by five, I have to order 125 copies of my book. That's investing in my business, right, and so if I don't, if I don't commit to that, then it's not going to work. So otherwise it's just money, money that I've spent that's lost. So it almost forces you. You know, a lot of times we don't think about the simple things, but you have to master the simple things and what I just said about five by five. Anybody can do that, and you anyone, any business. You don't have to be in financial services to do it. If you have any, if you're a baker or you're, you know, whatever it might be, you're in the stationary business, whatever. You know 125 people. There's a lot of people that need stationary, a lot of people that like to eat cookies and you know baked, baked items. So there's a lot of folks out there that need our services and need our ideas, and just simplifying those and mastering the simple things I think is important. \n\nStuart Bell\nYeah, I'm excited to check back in down the track and pinch this as an idea to share with other people and then feedback to you how they're doing with it, because oftentimes we get to the finish line less so now, but in the early days at least we get to the finish line of getting someone's book created and then it's, everyone reads aside relief and that's it, whereas really having the book done is the first step of everything. It's really the point zero, the base camp then, because the book's not a product, it's the right rules, everything else. So, in sharing with people okay, I'm getting to be finished Now what I can do now, what can I do? Rather, this is definitely getting handed to the list of what you can and should do and definitely, when I share this with people, I'm credit crediting you. \n\nWe've got I mentioned before we've had large footprint with financial advisors, just in part from our history and in part from relationship with coach. As people are listening to this and perhaps financial advisors are there thinking I've got a great business here, but some specialization in social security medical would really move the needle. What's a good place for people to find out more about what you do and, ultimately, what you offer? \n\nMichael Soos\nWell, they could just go to. I mean, if they want to just go to my website, I have the information on there. The book obviously is not out yet, but it says coming soon and there's my podcast and I'll probably put this podcast on there as well. They can go to soosconsultinggroup.com that's my last name, s o o s consulting groupcom very easy. Go there and they can find out a little bit about me, my bio or company, and what we do in our services. They want to book an initial consultation. They can do so. \n\nLike I said, I don't charge anything for an initial consultation or just have a conversation with someone to find out a little bit about them and their clients and what they need. And then, more importantly, I would just say it's just like going to a doctor. If you went to a doctor and you had a problem with your heart, you know your general practitioner doesn't operate on your heart. He sends you to a cardiologist or a cardiothoracic surgeon. So you know I see myself as a specialist in our industry and so, rather than doing it yourself, if you want to utilize my services, have me come out and speak in front of your clients or speak in front of a group. I'll be happy to do so. \n\nI've been doing that for 30 plus years, so that's really how they can get information for me. They can go to my website. There's even a chat function, stuart, where they can just chat. Click the chat button on the bottom of my website. So they don't want to contact me, they can just send me a question, or you know something that they want to say and then I'll respond back to them. \n\nStuart Bell\nSo so much more accessible. \n\nYep, this idea you mentioned being a specialist and I think, no matter which industry you're in, there's this idea that we've got in the beyond the book element of leveraging the book. \n\nOne of the things I talk about a lot is this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses, so reaching out to those people who aren't direct competitors. But really in this day and age, that idea of who is non-competing it's very close. I think in the old days if there were two CPAs in town and they're literally competing for the same clients because their footprint is the same, 300 businesses within 20 miles. The days of that are long, long gone and the reality is again take a strategic coach, game changer, free zone, frontier, amplifying technique or idea. The reality now is, even if you're thinking competing with someone and even if you're concerned about talking to a Medicare or social security expert because you're a CPA or your financial advisor and you should know it, the reality is the clients are going to get way more benefit and you'll make way more money by talking to a specialist and finding that one thing that has 5, 10% across the board. It's yeah, we're in a different world. \n\nMichael Soos\nWell, and the way I look at it is, there's no harm in just talking to me about social security and Medicare. It's not like I'm going to go out and write you know, mutual funds or annuities or life insurance and take business from you. You're using me as a almost an extension of your business or a part of your business. You know a valuable partner, someone who's part of our business, that I can go to, I can pick up the phone and I can call if I have a question. That's a very valuable service in today's day and age. \n\nIn the financial services business. \n\nStuart Bell\nYeah, it evidences the team and the capability way more than the clients. The advisors have the relationship with the clients. That's fine. Keep that. We want to be there behind the scenes providing the capability to amplify everything. The good thing about the podcast being video as well is that people can actually see your face and realize that you don't have two heads or horns. Nice to talk to. \n\nTime goes fast, I say at the end of every episode, but time flies by. It will be really great to check back in in a few months time after another five by five, five by five sequence of views in the book, because I think that will be an eye opener for people and definitely one worth checking back into. So we'll make sure that we put the links to the website and connecting with you in the show notes and our website where the show is hosted so, as people are listening to this, they can just click through and get directly. But again, I just want to say thanks to you time. We've really enjoyed catching up and look forward to hearing more on the next one. Thanks, stuart, I appreciate it. Thanks for the time today, fantastic. Thanks everyone for listening and, as always, we'll catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we have a great conversation with Michael Soos, author of Don't Leave Money on the Table, and a consultant who helps financial advisors create more effective Social Security and Medicare solutions for their clients.
\n\nMichael has a wealth of experience and talks about the opportunities advisors have in partnering with a specialist to deliver more value for their clients and create larger income streams for their businesses.
\n\nHis book is an excellent example of introducing a new idea to people rather than discussing a problem they want to solve. Financial advisors are what we refer to as 'visible prospects' because you can get a list or access that group directly compared with 'invisible prospects' who aren't identified in a list or group for us, for example, people feeling unsure about their Social Security options. Michael uses his book to introduce the idea they are leaving money on the table by not having the capability to offer more comprehensive services and, of course, offers a solution to help.
\n\nWe also talk about Michael's 5x5x5 outreach strategy, something that can be amplified with a book and something I'd recommend everyone steal!
\n\nI really enjoyed this conversation & you'll get many ideas on how to use a book in your business, especially if you're talking with peers.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/145
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nMichael Soos
\nI'm doing great, stuart. Thanks for having me on.
Stuart Bell
\nPleasure. I'm excited this is going to be a slightly different take on a subject that perhaps has come up before in the podcast. So our client base, in part because of our relationship with Strategic Coach, crosses over with Financial Advisors a lot, which is the business that you're in. But the book takes a slightly different angle to that. It's not necessarily a consumer facing book, it's more of a peer to peer book. So why don't you start by giving a bit of background about you and the business and then we can transition to the book?
Michael Soos
\nSure I would love to. You know I've spent 34 years in the financial services industry with a, you know, major Fortune 500 company. You know, in my tenure there I, you know what I realized very quickly was spending a lot of time with financial advisors, financial planners, cpas, attorneys. You know I don't want to say this in a negative way, but there was really a lack of knowledge and understanding around social security, claiming strategies, successful claiming strategies and their knowledge of Medicare. American College also did a study I think this was years ago where they found out that there was about 17% of financial advisors in the industry that actually felt comfortable talking about social security and Medicare with their clients.
So you know, I've been doing this for a long time. It actually started about 20 years ago with my father, who was 63 at the time and trying to make decisions on what to do with Medicare. There was no real guidance and there was nobody to help my dad and he was just asking neighbors and friends what you know, what they should do. Obviously it's not probably the best advice you should get. So you know, I saw that as a challenge and just really the reason I wrote the book was to provide some guidance and understanding to financial advisors about those claiming strategies so they can help their clients. It's really sort of a you know, a do it all book, you know do it yourself book, but for financial advisors to help their clients understand those strategies.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThat's the thing understanding the audience of the book, making an assumption of what their baseline knowledge is, so that you're not having to. You can up the level of the content because you're positioning this out of the financial advisor, so it doesn't have to be quite as one-on-one level as it would be if you were writing it for your dad. I was always fascinated. There's a good friend, dale, a marketing guy in Australia. I remember him saying years and years ago there's no niche too small. And at the time the marketing example is around picking very small niches in order to market too, and it's always continued to go smaller than bigger. You can always go smaller than you think. The same goes with financial services. I mean Social Security, medicare is one of those pieces of the puzzle which I've seen that most customers out there think that all financial advisors know all there is to know about this subject. But it's not until you start looking at it that you realize how deep it goes.
Michael Soos
\nYeah, it goes very deep and there's a lot of information. I mean, if you just Google Social Security and the Medicare, there's a lot of information out there and you just really don't know where to go or where to turn. But I'll give you a great point of reference. Most advisors don't feel as if they should lead with Social Security and Medicare, and when you think about the average client who may be approaching retirement, the number one thing on their mind is really not their investments per se. It's when do I start my Social Security benefits, how much does Medicare cost, when should I start Medicare and how does that tie into my overall financial plan? So there's a lot of complexities.
I think it's not just you just turn it on and start collecting it and it's that easy. I think it's for advisors. I think it's an overall part of an overall financial plan Sitting down with your clients and figuring out how much income do they need, when do they need it, what's their longevity in their household, what's their health history. There's a lot of different complexities or questions that they can ask and frankly, it leads to a lot of what we call product solutions maybe life insurance or annuities or other types of solutions that might tie in to help them if something happens. So I've taken a great passion at this because of what happened with my dad 20 years ago. But what I'm starting to realize is, through all the questions and all the calls I keep getting from financial advisors saying, can I pick your brain or can I ask you a question? That's why I wrote the book. I wrote it as a guide, really to help advisors help their clients make those important life changing decisions.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nRight and those important life changing decisions. They are very real decisions. People coming to the conversation. Customers are coming to the conversation at the point in time where they're not 20, they don't have a long runway in order to make changes to decisions. It's this point in the journey, the decisions, that may now really make quite a substantial difference to what their outcome is. When the journey of coming to write the book you mentioned was coming from a lot of the questions that you were getting from other financial advisors, those questions were they just within a peer group and it was just peers asking peers, or was that in the more structured framework, you were going out and soliciting or become known as the go-to person around Social Security and Medicare for financial advisors?
Michael Soos
\nI actually didn't even know I was going to write a book or, to be honest with you, this came to me from another financial planner who had written a book with 90 minute books and suggested that with all my knowledge that I had on this topic, that I might want to consider that. So I'm not a writer, I'm a good speaker. I've done a lot of presentations before in front of people, but where I came to realize how important it was is that not only was I talking to financial advisors, but I was talking to CPAs attorneys and they were asking me questions and they were inquiring about these strategies and that just told me it's a much bigger issue beyond financial advisors. So if I can help them just understand sort of an encyclopedia of information and then they can consult with me or call me and then I can help them a little bit more, I think that's important.
But I want to make one point that I think is real important and that is if you looked like 20 or 30 years ago, the state of our retirement system is much different than it was today because many people that were retiring with a defined benefit pension plan you know probably 70, 75% of the people working were retiring from their company and they got a pension plan, which is a guaranteed paycheck for life, and then they had Social Security so that's another guaranteed paycheck that they could receive.
\n\nAnd then they had very smaller nest egg. 401ks weren't really even relevant back then, 20 or 30 years ago and they had a small nest egg that they really, you know, relied on. Well, if you think about today, back then there was about 16 workers for every retiree paying into the system and paying taxes. Today there's less than three workers per retiree. People aren't getting pensions anymore. I mean, just ask any company that's hiring. If you ask them what their benefits are, they'll say, well, we have a good, a nice lucrative 401k. And you say, well, what about the pension? And they say, well, we don't have a pension.
\n\nOur companies aren't hiring and younger folks today aren't retiring or won't retire with the pension, so they'll have Social Security. It's more of a reliance on that income and then they're going to have to rely on the money that they save or they invest. It was a much you know. Again, it's a much different model than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Social Security was never designed to be your only source of income when you retire. It was designed as a supplement to your existing retirement plan. So you have to look and engage with your advisor or your planner and find out. You know, what other sources of income do I have?
\n\nStuart Bell
\nAnd that's an interesting point, isn't it? The design of the system in the first place was never intended to be the sole purpose, because the understanding back then was there were large companies, corporations that were predominantly taking care of the short amount of time that you lived outside of once you'd retired. But the situation now where the responsibility is put back I mean it's not even put back on the individual, it's almost so. As you can tell from the accent, I'm not a local, but oftentimes you hear the this is going to open a can of worms.
I'm only very superficially touching on it, but one of the big things that you hear in the US is our Europeans socialist countries and we don't want socialism. It's the worst possible thing in the world. But in a number of cases, like healthcare and retirement and the two that spring to mind, there was previously a situation where there wasn't socialized care here, but corporations were expected to take care of it. Now we're in a situation where everyone fights against the socialization of it. It doesn't want to get companies, doesn't want to have government involved, but it's also either oblivious or quite happy that companies are no longer involved either. So where the gap falls on the individual, who is probably, out of the three, the least capable, except at the extremes, the least capable of doing anything about it.
\n\nMichael Soos
\nSo Well, I'll simplify this for you if you don't mind. I mean and I talked to a lot of advisors about this too you know whether you're retired or you're working Um, it's pretty simple on how you spend your money. Okay, so you have discretionary and non discretionary spending, and I'll give you the example. Discretionary spending you know might be, you know the vacations or the golf, or you like to drink wine, or you know whatever you want to do. You know that's discretionary. That's up to you on how you spend that money.
Non discretionary is your. You know your mortgage, your car payment, your taxes, your bills, your utilities, all those things that you have to pay for. You know I call it the difference between you know the things you have to pay for and the things you want to pay for. Right, the difference. But if you think about the things you have to pay for that non discretionary spending, you need a guaranteed source of income and I can't stress that enough you need a guaranteed paycheck. You're not working anymore. Therefore you need a guaranteed paycheck coming in every month To pay your bills, pay your mortgage, pay your expenses. Even if your mortgage is paid off, you still have insurance, you still have taxes. You still have, you know, other expenses and upkeep.
\n\nSo the way I just try to simplify it for a lot of folks is you know you need a sense of guaranteed income to cover your non discretionary Expenses, anything above and beyond that. If you don't have, if you have a gap or you need to pay for additional Cost, then you have to create either create your own annuity or create your own guaranteed source of income. You know, to complement that or supplement that. So I mean I try to simplify that because I think a lot of folks don't realize that they need A guaranteed source of income and there's only three. There's only three that folks can rely on Social security, a pension we talked about that before and you know their own nest egg which they can turn into an annuity Ensured by an insurance company that can give them a guaranteed source of income or guaranteed growth. So you know, again, it's education. I always say education without implementation is just entertainment. It's kind of a funny.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah.
Michael Soos
\nYou know, if you just tell somebody something and they don't do anything about it, or they don't do anything with the Information, you just entertain them for right.
Stuart Bell
\nIt's not going to move the needle and they have their impending gap that's coming up Exactly this. So we often talk about writing a book, as the book's not the product. The product is the conversation that you're getting in with people. A number of people will write Specifically with a lead generation campaign in mind. I want to attract those outbound customers. That's not your situation. You're most filling a need that was there already, but I think this idea of the book is starting.
The conversation applies just as much, because you could write a textbook Three inches thick trying to cover absolutely everything, but what you've done is positioned it at the right level to give some knowledgeable people Further information. That takes them a step closer, but still it's pretty obvious if they want to really master the subject or go deep, there's more than could be contained in the pages of the book. So did you have, as you were thinking about pulling it together? Did you actually think about what that limit was? What makes sense to be in the book and what is? Maybe it's just going to get into the weeds?
\n\nMichael Soos
\nYeah, you know, I sat down at you know again, not knowing how to write a book. You know I created the outline and figured out you know what were the most important chapters that I needed to focus on. So, yeah, you know, knowing that there's a lot of information out there, I wanted to simplify it. Give folks, you know, sort of the most important aspects of Social Security and Medicare without you know, without overwhelming them in the book, but also use it almost as a business card or a calling card to have folks call me directly or book a Consultation. Or, you know, give me a call or go to my website or go to my company site and say you know, I need more information or I'd like more information. I want to talk to you a little bit.
I don't expect people to read my book and become experts overnight. I mean, I didn't become an expert overnight. What I do expect them to do is to read it and say you know, can I take action on this? Can I? Is this giving me enough information to say it's important to me and my clients for me to contact Michael Right to have a conversation. It doesn't cost anything to have a conversation with someone. Have a conversation. If you want to go further, we can go further with that, but that's why I, you know that's I use the book, or, you know, I guess, creating the book in mind as an entree, you know, to my business, to open up the door for more people to contact me.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nWhich I think is the best approach that 99% of people and 100% of people listening to this can take. Because, just as you start off by saying in the call, you're not a writer. But we often say to people, if you were a writer, you'd already do this Right, not your business and your financial advisor. What you've got is a lot of good ideas based on all of your experience and all of the knowledge that you've gained over the years. So authoring that idea is separate from the task of having to write it and get it into a book. I think that holds up a lot of people. They do think that they need to be a writer in order to create Something bound together and have pages. But really, what social security, medical may be great examples of it. Even further, because All of the information, just the pure information, is available in government Panplates and books. It is, it's black and white, is what is. But the way that you've authored the idea and brought them together and structured it, and then how you take people when they do phone, through further steps and help them get to that next level, that's really authoring a good idea.
The financial services, the other financial services clients that you work with the other advisors. I'm guessing they're coming to you with all sorts of different levels of understanding In terms of converting a lead that you might get. Who's read the book and reached out for a call Into a client who's actually doing some work? Is your business set up? We've got a relatively formulaic program that brings people on it. They kind of buying a Michael product or is it more of like a service-based thing and you know generally what they're trying to get to?
\n\nMichael Soos
\nbut it's very tailored for each individual person at the end of the day, they're buying me right because I'm the product, I'm the service Right. So at the end of the day, I'm leveraging a lot of the relationships I've had over 34 years, people that already know me. I'll give you a great example. My last name is a little bit unique. You mentioned about Europe. My, my name has the orientation in Hungary. That's pronounced shosh in Hungary, in Hungarian, but it means of salt, or of the ground or of salt.
But a lot of people know me by my last name. It's a unique name backwards, forwards, upside down. It's. A lot of people don't even know my first name, they just know my last I. So I created my company in mind. You know, with my last name, people that know me that can come to me and Ask me information or ask me you know anything about. You know social security, and these are folks that already I've already had a relationship with or they've put me in front of their clients or they put me in front of their CPA or their attorney. Obviously I'm trying to forge new relationships and you know the great way of doing that is with the book right.
\n\nYeah get them to read the book. And I'm to understand that you know I am sort of a resident expert in this, in this field, and that if they want to continue going forward, I don't charge anything for my initial consultation or an initial group meeting. If they want me to come in and talk to a Group of advisors or folks, just to see you know, are you interested? Do I have value? And if you find value in what I do, then we can proceed forward. But that's pretty much how I set it up.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThat's that idea of having a hook around the name and anyone watching the video can see it on their shirt there. That idea of having the hook around the name, it's almost disarming. I used to say when I was in and out of the I've been permanently in the US since 2018, it's 23 as we record now. Prior to that, I was in and out for a number of years and in a number of meetings when I was following up with people, I'd always put in the signature or the British guy with the beard, because in a room full of Americans, when you're meeting 10 new people, they might remember the guy with the weird accent and the beard as opposed to everyone else who was there. So I really love the idea of having a hook because it just kind of gets the conversation going. There's a little bit of history around the name and what it means and it's easy for people to ask questions and start the conversation.
The thought of now that the book is complete, you've got the existence, free of influence and the people who know you, like you, entrust you already. You've got the opportunity when meeting people you can hand it out or follow up with people afterwards. But the idea of now that the book is created, it's the flagpole around which a lot of other content can be created. One of the things I really like to talk to people about, particularly where they've got a very targeted market, is the idea of, for example, linkedin marketing.
\n\nUnless we're a champion addict, which most of us aren't, it's always a bit of a headache to think it's something they have to remember to do. But having the book created now in a way that you can just excerpt individual lines or sentences or the key phrase and then elaborate and illuminate it with hey, if this was interesting, there's more. Just get a copy of the book here. Have you thought about that level of not LinkedIn necessarily, but that level of using the content to get out there? Are there any ways that you're excited to try or have tried and have got some traction?
\n\nMichael Soos
\nYeah, like I think we were speaking personally before, I've done a podcast ready in Atlanta, georgia, with a really good friend of mine who's a mortgage broker and wanted to interview me. He's got a pretty wide audience. So I went down to his home. He's got a video studio in his home and we did a podcast probably a 45 minute podcast on social security and Medicare. But what he also taught me was to create these little snippets of video clips, and so what I did is create sort of a mini video studio in my home.
I don't know much about it, but doing little clips on excerpts and from my book and just simply doing the excerpts and then getting them out on social media, whether it be Facebook or Instagram or whether it be LinkedIn. I have a pretty large network of contacts on my LinkedIn as well and I find that reaches a lot of folks. I'm getting a lot of people messaging me back saying, hey, can I get a copy of your book? Hey, when it comes out, can you send me a copy of it? And it hasn't even come out yet and they want it. So I think using social media today, versus maybe what we did 20 years ago when we didn't have it. I think I'm leveraging that as a tool to get in front of a lot more people.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nAnd in a very amplifying and efficient way. I mean, when you think about it, a weekly message, 52 messages to go out. Okay, triple that three times a week. You want to send out a message three times a week 152. No one's going to remember the content even halfway through that cycle. So you could even cut that back to 75 messages, repeat them and no one's going to point out and say, hey, I remember on July the 27th you said exactly the same thing. What's going on? I mean that just doesn't happen.
So there's the opportunity. You've gone out to amplify the book and just take those excerpts, even if you did it like lay the track as you go for the first six months, but now you've got 10 years worth of perpetual content all tied around this one main asset that you become known for and it's self-supporting. I like the idea of this. I think it's a persuasion. It's in persuasion. Robert Chaldini's book, where talks about kind of laying the track three or four steps ahead, often talk about this idea of imagine the customer journey a year down the track. So they've seen a piece of media. They didn't know you before. They've seen a piece of media that resonates with them. They've requested to copy the book and the language is mirrored, in that you're sending them an email sequence to try and engage them in the first instance, and the language is mirrored again. Then they'll reach out to schedule something and the person that's scheduling the thing, or the text on the page where they're scheduling a meeting, again represents or reflects the same language.
\n\nNow they eventually, after all of these stages, they're either sat down in front of you or, like we are on zoom, and you start talking to them and saying, okay, the key thing about social security is this idea of needing an annuity, you need a fixed income because you've got all these non-discretionary things that you don't want to stay up at night. They're not hearing that for the first time. It's not getting on a call with Susan. It's the first time that you're hearing it, it's the eighth time. They've heard it in all sorts of different ways.
\n\nAnd the likelihood of them taking action the point you made before we're not doing this for entertainment, we're doing it for education and movement, all of these persuasion things with all of the authority that books brings to it and all of the authority that social media at presence brings to it. But the fact that when they sit down in front of you. You know eight, nine, ten steps down the process. That, I think, is something that is so undervalued, because people think about writing a book, because they want to write a book, they don't necessarily think about all that. They want something to have in a campaign, they don't necessarily think of all of it. But yeah, that idea of really reinforcing your approach is a game changer.
\n\nMichael Soos
\nI'll give you a great example, and I've been using this for 20 plus years now, even with the evolution of social media. I called it my five by five campaign and essentially what that meant was is if I wanted to reach, let's say, 125 people, I could obviously take 125 copies of my book and send it out today. But I would also challenge you that if all 125 of those people picked up my book and said they want to reach Michael Seuss and called me, I don't have the capacity to follow up with 125 people. So I created this concept of five by five, which simply breaks it into three parts. It breaks it into an email, sending it out directly through the mail, and then follow up with a phone call. So email send it out and then a phone call, and I do five people a day, five days a week, times five weeks. At the end of those five weeks I measure what my results are or what the progress was at the end of those five weeks.
Now, if you think about that, if I send out five on Monday and they receive five copies of my book and I follow up with them, let's say, on Wednesday or Thursday, I only have to make five phone calls. If I make five phone calls, I follow up with those five people. When I might get two or three of them that are interested the next day, I just do it all over again. Follow up with five. Again, I have the capacity to do five. I don't know if I have the capacity to do 125 right and the overwhelm.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nI mean going into it thinking, okay, I've got, I just need to do these five things today and I'm only going to do it for five weeks and then, if I hate it, I can never touch it again. But it's a commitment that's doable. Going into something with a list of 125 names, I mean that's overwhelming. Even generating the list in the first place, that's an interesting question actually. So this idea of reaching out to those five, or to get the 5555 in terms of the names that you reach out to, is that for someone listening thinking, hey, that's a great idea. I'm not a financial advisor, I'm not in Michael's neck in the woods, but I want to steal it. But where do you typically get those names from? Are they existing clients you're re-engaging with, or lists that you're buying, or well, it's really dependent on your market.
Michael Soos
\nReally depending, stuart. You know, in my market I have a network of financial advisors. I mean I can go down my street here and there's, you know, 30 financial advisors up and down my street. So you know, you could either go in, you know, go and look up financial advisors in your area and if there's somebody with a different market or a different business, they can do the same thing or they can use their existing network. I mean I'll challenge everybody on this call.
I mean I'm sure if I asked you and I said you had to do it, in order to write your book you have to come up with a list of 125 names, you would write down 125 names, whether you knew them personally or you didn't. You would come up with those names and that's where you really start with that list. Scratch them off if you don't really want them, but you know, create the list and then figure out. There's no importance over who are the first five, who are the second five, it doesn't matter, it's just having a process. Yeah, and most people they start marketing and they don't measure their progress, they don't measure how successful that marketing is. That's why it did the five by five, because after five weeks I can sit down and study it, observe it, understand it. You know, did I have success with it? Do I need to do ten a day? Do I need to do three a day? Do I need to switch it up a little bit? You know I can change it if I want to do that right, but I think you know, not just to give you a plug on 90 minute books, but, going back to what we said before, I'm not a writer, I'm a speaker, I'm an educator. I've been in the business a long time. I know what I know and I know how I want to communicate it, but I didn't know that I could actually write a book before.
\n\nI mean, I thought it was a very complicated process. I have to give 90 minute books a lot of. I know you didn't ask me to do this, but I have to give them a lot, a lot of praise because they made the process very simple, very easy. And doing the transcription, you know, interviewing you and just going through. You know that was a lot easier for me than sitting down and writing my own book on my own. You know, just going through and editing the transcription and then, once we edit it, you realize it's actually, and now and now it's a book or the contents of a book, and then you can add to it, delete from it, take away from it. You know whatever you want to do. It made the process so much easier for me. But, as you know, you have to invest in yourself and invest in your business. So if you're not, then you're not going to get anything out of it. But I give I give 90 minute a lot of credit. I would have never done it if I had not engaged with your company.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nAppreciate it. I mean, this is when, just before we started to recording, I was kind of giving you the background and saying that we're doing more guest interviews now with authors because, if nothing else, people for the first hundred or so episodes, I can only say you should write a book so many times. But one of the I guess, not surprising but certainly unanticipated benefits of doing it was the enthusiasm that people bring to the calls and the real life stories and examples of how people are using or plan to use it, the fact that it's done, it being a thing that they would never get around to doing. So I mean, I don't often think about the kind of world-changing opportunity that we've got, but now, having done over a thousand books, that's a thousand ideas that the majority of them wouldn't have got out there, and definitely not out there in that way and not by that person, were it not for, like I said, the straightforward process that we've got in taking what is perceived to be a big, difficult process and just stripping it down into the most kind of like lean, effective version to be able to use in something like the five by five funnel and just go back to that. I'm going to credit you when I steal this idea and share it with people in the future.
But I often have strategy calls with people as they've got to them in the process and I've got five things which are low hanging fruit that everyone can do, which stem from a number of calls, but this isn't on that list. I'm going to add it now. How straightforward is it? Like I say, anyone can create that list. When we were talking mentally, that immediately came up as a block for me oh yeah, that's that I could do that. That definitely sounds like something I could and should do.
\n\nOh, but the list, the list. But you immediately got rid of that barrier because if I was forced to write down 125 names, I could do it. If I didn't want to do that, I could give it to one of the team and they could do it. If they didn't want to do it, I could give it to someone on up desk, or I work, work rather and outsource it and probably in July 2023, I could go to chat TTP and get chat TTP to give me a reasonable first draft. So just to be able to get that done and then reaching out becomes straightforward. And what a benefit. It'll be interesting once the books. Like you mentioned, we're just in the final stages of wrapping up the book, but it'll be really interesting to check back in six months or 12 months and say okay, you've got the stats from a five by five three years ago, when you were using something else. What differences it made now that, on the delivery stage, you're actually delivering your own book. That'll be really interesting to hear.
\n\nMichael Soos
\nWell, and think about it. You know, in order for me to do five by five, I have to order 125 copies of my book. That's investing in my business, right, and so if I don't, if I don't commit to that, then it's not going to work. So otherwise it's just money, money that I've spent that's lost. So it almost forces you. You know, a lot of times we don't think about the simple things, but you have to master the simple things and what I just said about five by five. Anybody can do that, and you anyone, any business. You don't have to be in financial services to do it. If you have any, if you're a baker or you're, you know, whatever it might be, you're in the stationary business, whatever. You know 125 people. There's a lot of people that need stationary, a lot of people that like to eat cookies and you know baked, baked items. So there's a lot of folks out there that need our services and need our ideas, and just simplifying those and mastering the simple things I think is important.
Stuart Bell
\nYeah, I'm excited to check back in down the track and pinch this as an idea to share with other people and then feedback to you how they're doing with it, because oftentimes we get to the finish line less so now, but in the early days at least we get to the finish line of getting someone's book created and then it's, everyone reads aside relief and that's it, whereas really having the book done is the first step of everything. It's really the point zero, the base camp then, because the book's not a product, it's the right rules, everything else. So, in sharing with people okay, I'm getting to be finished Now what I can do now, what can I do? Rather, this is definitely getting handed to the list of what you can and should do and definitely, when I share this with people, I'm credit crediting you.
We've got I mentioned before we've had large footprint with financial advisors, just in part from our history and in part from relationship with coach. As people are listening to this and perhaps financial advisors are there thinking I've got a great business here, but some specialization in social security medical would really move the needle. What's a good place for people to find out more about what you do and, ultimately, what you offer?
\n\nMichael Soos
\nWell, they could just go to. I mean, if they want to just go to my website, I have the information on there. The book obviously is not out yet, but it says coming soon and there's my podcast and I'll probably put this podcast on there as well. They can go to soosconsultinggroup.com that's my last name, s o o s consulting groupcom very easy. Go there and they can find out a little bit about me, my bio or company, and what we do in our services. They want to book an initial consultation. They can do so.
Like I said, I don't charge anything for an initial consultation or just have a conversation with someone to find out a little bit about them and their clients and what they need. And then, more importantly, I would just say it's just like going to a doctor. If you went to a doctor and you had a problem with your heart, you know your general practitioner doesn't operate on your heart. He sends you to a cardiologist or a cardiothoracic surgeon. So you know I see myself as a specialist in our industry and so, rather than doing it yourself, if you want to utilize my services, have me come out and speak in front of your clients or speak in front of a group. I'll be happy to do so.
\n\nI've been doing that for 30 plus years, so that's really how they can get information for me. They can go to my website. There's even a chat function, stuart, where they can just chat. Click the chat button on the bottom of my website. So they don't want to contact me, they can just send me a question, or you know something that they want to say and then I'll respond back to them.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nSo so much more accessible.
Yep, this idea you mentioned being a specialist and I think, no matter which industry you're in, there's this idea that we've got in the beyond the book element of leveraging the book.
\n\nOne of the things I talk about a lot is this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses, so reaching out to those people who aren't direct competitors. But really in this day and age, that idea of who is non-competing it's very close. I think in the old days if there were two CPAs in town and they're literally competing for the same clients because their footprint is the same, 300 businesses within 20 miles. The days of that are long, long gone and the reality is again take a strategic coach, game changer, free zone, frontier, amplifying technique or idea. The reality now is, even if you're thinking competing with someone and even if you're concerned about talking to a Medicare or social security expert because you're a CPA or your financial advisor and you should know it, the reality is the clients are going to get way more benefit and you'll make way more money by talking to a specialist and finding that one thing that has 5, 10% across the board. It's yeah, we're in a different world.
\n\nMichael Soos
\nWell, and the way I look at it is, there's no harm in just talking to me about social security and Medicare. It's not like I'm going to go out and write you know, mutual funds or annuities or life insurance and take business from you. You're using me as a almost an extension of your business or a part of your business. You know a valuable partner, someone who's part of our business, that I can go to, I can pick up the phone and I can call if I have a question. That's a very valuable service in today's day and age.
In the financial services business.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah, it evidences the team and the capability way more than the clients. The advisors have the relationship with the clients. That's fine. Keep that. We want to be there behind the scenes providing the capability to amplify everything. The good thing about the podcast being video as well is that people can actually see your face and realize that you don't have two heads or horns. Nice to talk to.
Time goes fast, I say at the end of every episode, but time flies by. It will be really great to check back in in a few months time after another five by five, five by five sequence of views in the book, because I think that will be an eye opener for people and definitely one worth checking back into. So we'll make sure that we put the links to the website and connecting with you in the show notes and our website where the show is hosted so, as people are listening to this, they can just click through and get directly. But again, I just want to say thanks to you time. We've really enjoyed catching up and look forward to hearing more on the next one. Thanks, stuart, I appreciate it. Thanks for the time today, fantastic. Thanks everyone for listening and, as always, we'll catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we have a great conversation with Michael Soos, author of Don't Leave Money on the Table, and a consultant who helps financial advisors create more effective Social Security and Medicare solutions for their clients.\r\n\r\nMichael has a wealth of experience and talks about the opportunities advisors have in partnering with a specialist to deliver more value for their clients and create larger income streams for their businesses.\r\n\r\nHis book is an excellent example of introducing a new idea to people rather than discussing a problem they want to solve. Financial advisors are what we refer to as 'visible prospects' because you can get a list or access that group directly compared with 'invisible prospects' who aren't identified in a list or group for us, for example, people feeling unsure about their Social Security options. Michael uses his book to introduce the idea they are leaving money on the table by not having the capability to offer more comprehensive services and, of course, offers a solution to help.\r\n\r\nWe also talk about Michael's 5x5x5 outreach strategy, something that can be amplified with a book and something I'd recommend everyone steal!\r\n\r\nI really enjoyed this conversation & you'll get many ideas on how to use a book in your business, especially if you're talking with peers.","date_published":"2023-08-13T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/e545cee7-eb04-4c95-93a6-b3c5c46739a4.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27101176,"duration_in_seconds":2178}]},{"id":"e6202f9d-f722-4510-935c-76018d0f911e","title":"Ep144: Save Money, Have Fun with John & JJ Checki","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/144","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with John and JJ Checki. Father & son Financial Planning team based in Texas, and authors of a great book,_ Spend Time and Save Money_.\n\nTheir book is a fun introduction to their approach to retirement and helps people approach the subject from the perspective of living a great retirement rather than getting stuck in the weeds of financial planning.\n\nWe had the opportunity to discuss the process and the simplest way to create a book that starts the conversation. We also spoke about the idea that your book should be a living document rather than something carved in stone, allowing you to tweak and update it over time as you get real-world feedback on what resonates with clients.\n\nThe episode has some great ideas on how to use a book to find more leads, no matter what business you're in.\n\n \n\nSHOW HIGHLIGHTS\n\n\nJohn and JJ Checki are authors of a financial planning book and have a knack for simplifying complicated topics, turning them into relatable conversations.\nThey share their unique writing process and discuss how they transformed their book into a living document that evolves over time.\nThey delve into the behind-the-scenes stories of book writing and printing, including horror tales of book printing errors.\nThe Checkes use diagrams, mind maps, and procedures to break down financial jargon into understandable journeys for their clients.\nIn the latter part of the discussion, they focus on the importance of effective communication in financial planning, emphasizing the need for humor, openness, and a deep understanding of the local community.\nThey discuss how writing a book can deepen personal connections and make complex topics more approachable.\nThe Checkes also share their innovative ways of turning a book into a living asset, such as treating the book as a campaign and updating it as necessary.\nThe importance of getting to know clients and their families before making any financial decisions is also discussed.\nThe Checkes believe in the power of mind mapping as a tool for understanding and organizing knowledge and creating a personalized financial plan.\nThe importance of involving existing clients in the process of creating a book is highlighted, and they share their experiences of using this strategy.\n\n\n\nLINKS\nJohn Checki\nLinkedin | YouTube | Facebook\n\nJJ Checki\n Linkedin | Bookclub\n\nChecki Financial\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/144\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart Bell\nI have one. Welcome back to another episode of the Book more show. It's Stuart Bell here and today. I'm excited for how this is going to go. We just had a quick behind the scenes start to the conversation before we hit record, so this is going to be a really great conversation. So we've got John and JJ Checki with us today, who wrote a book. I actually got finished a couple of years ago now, but the reason I reached out is because, completely unrelated I called with some of the marketing firm and we were talking about books and and Mark I was talking to you said I was talking to someone a couple of weeks ago who'd written a book They'd be great clients and he sent through a copy of the cover and, lo and behold, he was on JJ's. \n\nJohn Checki\nSo, guys, welcome to the show, thank you, thank you, and we underscore that for the rest of you listening or watching, I've met the other founder of it, gene Jackson, a wonderfully genius of a fellow, and if you use the internet at all for marketing, you're using some of the techniques that he invented low those many years ago. And if you're lucky enough to play golf with him, tony Robbins, congratulations. If not, like the rest of us, you just have to get a reservation. But this book has been a great help to us, particularly for JJ and JJ. I'll let you fill in that part of the blank. \n\nJJ Checki\nYes, definitely Well one. The writing process was fun, which is probably how you had that conversation with Mark is. I highlight that to people who stop and ask about the process. What was that like? What was the experience? And I definitely point to 90 minute books because that was a pleasurable experience. It's own fun story how it did the opportunity came to be. But as far as the book itself, it's definitely been amazing have a resource to be able to give to somebody, whether that's a PDF version if they want a free one, or whether they want me to sign one and send it to them as well. So it definitely been a great resource and love having the opportunity to be able to do that. \n\nJohn Checki\nAnother feature of it. I've met any number of people who tell horror stories about how they had a book printed up and they have either their garage or a warehouse or an extra storage facility full of books. And you do not have to do that, no kidding, you just order them as you need them. It comes with a certain variety of books I forget how many it is but you don't order caseloads of books just so your wife or husband or friends can give you some grief and the mice love something to eat. \n\nStuart Bell\nYeah, we're definitely trying to mice. \n\nFor you to stress, you've had it. \n\nI want to say a few weeks ago, but it was probably a few months ago and I where they had that exact experience and in fact it got worse because they had some that were ordered but it had gone out of date some of the content and they needed to update it. But I think the original company had gone out of business but everything was printed in the company's name so they couldn't get access to any of the assets, so it really became a bit of a gravestone of a project that was then collecting dust in the back of the room. So this idea that we're creating a living document and the fact that we happened to be in a point in time where a book is a very effective way of starting a conversation with people, but the book itself isn't the product, it's a living version, why don't we jump back a little bit and think about how you guys came to the point of wanting to write a book in the first place? Was it a long burning passion or specifically thinking about the market. \n\nJJ Checki\nIf you want me to answer that first and then John can go, the more in depth. \n\nJohn Checki\nGo right ahead. \n\nJJ Checki\nI have this fun. The fun version or the silly version of it is once when we had the physical office here in the Dallas Fort Worth area. I walk into the office one morning and haven't even gotten to my desk yet and pop, as I call him. John looks at me and says we're writing a book, like okay, good morning. So it says, yeah, I just hired 90 minute books for to help us get to our message. Out there we're starting, and whatever day it was like okay, here we go, we're writing a book. \n\nSo John had a much more in depth answer to that, but that was my experience. \n\nJohn Checki\nI, since the earth cooled, have written things down on pieces of paper and I really trained myself when I went to Texas Christian University thinking that I was going to become a novelist and JJ's mom was kind enough to support us for a short, happy period of time when I was affectionately referred to as an unpublished novelist. And after three of those in a couple of years I got really tired of being a supported bum so I went and got to be a certified public account. But I've been working on a book title called how to have Fun and Still have Money for years and I even put a manuscript together and miraculously got it through compliance and I had to remind compliance when I put that on our website a couple of years back, because they keep forgetting stuff, we're losing files and if you keep fine, jj's, we're going to keep in file. I wanted to have a project that we did together. That's point number one. Point number two most people have an idea of some burning desire to share their ideas. Particularly financial advisors always have a hard luck story when they started, which is why we want to make sure no one else has that same hard luck story If you're making twice your age and it's back in 1980 and you're 40 and you're making $80,000 and your boss comes to your office and says if you could find a job by next Tuesday and it's Thursday that would be a great thing. And I thought the probability of May they just changed the tax law and gutted three different industries in Dallas of finding that kind of a job in five days is nominal. So we've renegotiated in terms of that and I became a financial advisor and much more appreciated that than being a tax guy. \n\nBut in terms of a message, jj's had a great period of time while he's networking, mentioning the book, passing out the book to people without asking immediately for an order. I was at a place called Osteo Strong and I was just chatting with a little lady because basically, people of our age I'm only 75, working and getting to be more than 75. And I just said to the lady because I gave their first speech, they gave on what Osteo Strong was about the advantages of aging, which is great fun. And I handed her the book and she looked at me and said huh, start a conversation, hand me a book. What do you ask me to do next? Write you a check. And I said I'm sure you have met in your lifetime or like that. But I'm just giving you a book. If you enjoy it, great. \n\nJJ Checki\nand if not, at least you can keep a door open with it and I've even started prefaceing that and saying are you a reader? And if they say yes, well, like, why have a book? If you're interested here you go, and if they kind of waffle, I go. You save me money by actually not taking the book. So if you don't want it, not going to bother me at all. \n\nStuart Bell\nIt's such a great point that it starts the conversation in a giving where, not with people's defenses up. You're going into something genuinely trying to help them and from that some business will come. But that's not, I think, for all of the podcasts, as people listen back and most of the people that we're working with, everyone's coming from this perspective if wanting to share and help first, in the belief that business will come later, not trying to ram something down people's throat and here on the planet earth. \n\nJohn Checki\nA helpful hint to anybody watching or listening is if you provide value first and you can demonstrate you're not a pickpocket even though you may or may not look like a pickpocket not any of us puts people at ease and if you've read Dr Kildini at all in terms of how people's minds kind of work and he wrote a book years and years ago and took 20 years for that message to actually become popular. Oh, by the way, and it was to help people defend themselves against the techniques that salespeople used on. I'm going to call them their victims, as opposed to their market. And instead of being appealing to that market, it turned out the people that he was trying to vilify, criticize. Salespeople kept hiring Chaldeany to come to their events, to talk to them, to teach them how to use these techniques. \n\nStuart Bell\nThere is that underlying belief that anything can work, for God or evil, and some techniques because it's helping people, but certainly be aware of the risks of the same techniques working and to kind of underscore that you can even include this in one of your books, and that is simply this. \n\nJohn Checki\nOnce JJ and I were being interviewed by an attorney who, comedically enough, was an ambulance chasing attorney but despite that, was very nice man and he had longed us. Part of his office periodically when we were in Austin, was really grilling us like attorneys like to do, and his wife was there too, because we always like to have both sides of the story. And I said, to summarize this I'm not sure if it's a U5 or U4, I get this so confused but I've been in business for 35 years and my office has always been five miles of the same location. You get to a very small circle and that's where I've been for the last 35 years and there are no complaints. \n\nJJ Checki\nRight In our industry that's the equivalent of a forensic background check is the broker check. So if you look at that and it's clean, that means something. And if someone. \n\nJohn Checki\nIf you're not in Phoenix for a few years, then get kicked out of town and they go to Atlanta for a few years. \n\nStuart Bell\nAnd the people who are basically migratory con artists, especially in the state business- as I say, the propensity of people writing negative reviews as opposed to positive reviews, the fact that you've got that, all of that social proof coming through, that you're delivering what you say and the conversations that you're starting manifest into some kind of real, tangible benefits at the end of it, such as Game Changer, particularly like saying, financial services. \n\nJohn Checki\nAbout somebody with white hair working with somebody with just a salt and pepper beard. Jd, tell us what you've discovered about testimonials and financial advisors. \n\nJJ Checki\nWell, it made me think of not having one. Always has the younger counterpart that's working together, but it does help on both directions. You have young and old clients looking at both of us and they might point to one or the other. They might say we're comfortable hiring you because pop is his experience. Or the opposite side. They'll say we want to hire you because we know long term you're going to be there with us At some point in the distant future. John will eventually hang it up and sail off into the sunset, but I'm not holding my breath. \n\nStuart Bell\nAgain the feeling that he's going to be both of us in this race. \n\nJohn Checki\nActually, the oldest financial advisor in the United States is in New York. I forget his last name, but he's only 106 years old. The big change for those of you that are in the financial business is now financial advisors according to what JD just found out a couple of weeks ago now can have testimonials which in the past you could not even have someone who loved you to death send out a referral card to somebody else when I first became a CPA. If you had JJ as your CPA and you came to me and said I want to fire JJ and hire you back when I became a CPA in 1976, I would have to call JJ and say you might want to call Stuart because I think you have a problem with him. I couldn't even give him my card in 1976. The world has changed a great deal. \n\nStuart Bell\nAs an opportunity we talked briefly about. We'll start talking about the book being a living document, not this thing that's cast in stone and then you're going to sink a swim with it. But the idea of now, the landscape has changed. You've got the opportunity to use the book as a tool in this new landscape, with all the references and testimonials and the opportunity for people to share. Not only can they make those on social media as an example or linked in, or you could now include them in the book where you couldn't before, but you can also reach out to existing clients and use the book as a referral tool, saying, hey, we were talking about potentially tweaking something within the book. \n\nNow, even though it's two, three years later after the first version was out, reaching back out to those existing clients and say, hey, we've just made it up to the book. Many people get it as possible, the great feedback. If you want to get it on social media, that's fine. If you want to, just let us know and we'll send you some copies to give to the person that you're thinking of. This idea of treating it as a living asset. It can update itself and flex and change depending on the market conditions or the rule changes. It's such a more empowering way of thinking as a book as a tool, rather than just the book is the product trying to write something, it's got an ISBN and that's it for all an eternity. \n\nJohn Checki\nAnd since modern businesses are evolving, where more and more people are saving an hour or two a day by not commuting from home to wherever the office used to be, and I used to have a nice collection of Jaguars and Mercedes Benzes and Alexis parked in the parking garage where our office was, because there were so many extra parking spaces available during the beginning of the pandemic, if we got a better offer and tried to convince the landlord that you know, I could shoot a cannon in the parking lot and the only thing I would hit would be a wall. So could you give us a reduction on our rent? And he said, no, this is a hot market. And I thought okay, we left that suite a year ago and it's still empty. Oh, by the way, so for those of you who are in one spot and thinking, gee, willikers, I don't want to put my address and my partners and what have you on the book. You can do that and later revise it later on, so you're not making it. \n\nStuart Bell\nAbsolutely. I'm making it as tailored as possible to the moment and then changing it if necessary to the next moment as I change, compared to trying to make something generic that's trying to fit all purposes. We often talk about our price point, as you guys know, is that we try to keep it as cost effective as possible, because that way then people can write books as they would think about a campaign. So, rather than writing a best seller type book where it's a kind of one and done, lock yourself in the cabin and have an unpleasant experience of writing for months and months thinking about it as this campaign, this is the most effective tool for this campaign and the mayor may not be another campaign and another further down the track or changes to tail of it. \n\nJohn Checki\nAnd JJ, if you don't mind, why don't you tell us about your participation in the dictation of the book with? That was like for you. \n\nJJ Checki\nOh, definitely Well, one I wanted to highlight with Stuart just said, which was another one of your podcasts. The author referenced that one particular section of the book really stood out and people really resonated with. So he's actually now peeling that out of the book and call it recreating. But using that as the basis for the second book that he's writing is because that was the tool that most people liked, or liked the most out of the book. So that's awfully an interesting concept as well, to be able to living, breathing thing versus just standing still. \n\nSo, and your question was the writing process or the dictating process. It was actually pleasure to be a part of. So, obviously, the outline you start with that. What are we writing about? What's the purpose of the book? Set that make sure it's set up in place. \n\nAnd then the actual interview was, which was a lot of fun. We enjoyed it. We had a good time, which you would expect from the title and the subject. As far as how we operate and finances, it's a serious thing, but at the same time, we like to have a good time with it. We like to actually exchange with our clients, not just to drive financial reports. So actually getting to write it and share some personal stories about the family, about some of the just the different stories that are in it. It was just a lot of fun and enjoyed the opportunity, of course, to work with my pop, and also it's fun to have both of us be on the back cover, so as we handed out, you guys like you might recognize somebody on this book in front of you, so it's a lot of fun. \n\nJohn Checki\nAnother side now. I was talking to a fellow who's representing a major insurance company that you see, way else, jump out of the water behind a golf, what have you? And he said how did you happen to find JJ? And I looked at him and I said do you notice how much he looks like me? And he said yes my son and we have the same name. \n\nJJ Checki\nYes. \n\nStuart Bell\nI just looked there nine months later and he was out, so it's been a long. I couldn't get any staff, so I had to create my own. \n\nJohn Checki\nAnd I did. For those of you who aren't in business, the oldest family business in the world is a Japanese company that's 1500 years old and they make, as I recall, buddhist temples. And there is a department in the University of Monterey and not California, but Mexico that devotes itself to family run businesses. \n\nSo, there's a long history not just Johnson and the Ford Motor Company of businesses which are family businesses. So I encourage you to go look at those various sources and, for those of you who are having trouble finding people that you'd like to hand it off to you might take a look at your family and find the one or two or three responsible ones out of the kids that you have, who you can do that or you can do the get off this ramp. You use the Roman custom of adoption, where you find somebody who's amazing and you have him or her or they sign an agreement that will actually take over your business but make sure your family is okay, which is where the word adoption came from. \n\nStuart Bell\nThat's an interesting background to the entomology of the word and actually that resonates a little bit with the podcast from last week with John Neuching, who they do a lot of family wealth and private office type business and their experience is really trying to make sure that transition is as smooth as possible. I think there's a lot of time where people, particularly on the smaller side of business, perhaps think of things as is almost an extension of self-employment, not really thinking of the business as an entity. \n\nJohn Checki\nBut when you start thinking about bringing in other family members it really gives that inter generational opportunity and to kind of underscore that further, when JJ first went from being a youth pastor for 10 years to helping me with my business, we put down procedures because I, as you might be able to tell from my pace of speech, am a nine quick start on a scale of 10. And JJ, what was your score? \n\nJJ Checki\nI believe mine was a one. \n\nJohn Checki\nScale of one to 10. \n\nJJ Checki\nI was one, he was nine. \n\nStuart Bell\nSo JJ doesn't seem like he would cause any problems at all. \n\nJohn Checki\nYeah, actually the probability of being able to work with anybody more than two points beside you is a non-start Right Statistically speaking. But you know you can't. I can't too well to make another sign, but that's another story. Jj is a natural baker, just like his mom was. She's since deceased, so he follows recipes very well and I have a wonderful cook, an Italian specialty, and particularly don't follow recipes. So we have procedures for JJ and we call that a three-ring binder, thanks to a particular mentor of ours, and it's been very helpful. \n\nStuart Bell\nThis idea of kind of translating that into how you help the clients, this idea of proceduralizing things and having a formula to work to, that kind of represents itself in the book to a certain degree, because you're presenting these, this framework of ideas that you then obviously talking to when you eventually meet people. So the proceduralizing of placing things in the three-ring binder and then how you're working with clients was the client work always that way was always a lot more procedural, just because the nature of the work it was in my case, and I'll tell you why. \n\nJohn Checki\nI'm a rather studious person by nature. It may not seem like it, but I always do a lot of research and I found that there are several different ways that people actually learn. And I was talking to a client of mine who was a chief lobbyist for a major company and he's a brilliant guy and he kept saying to me I just don't see what you're saying. So I turned to the back of the prospectus and it had one of those amazing charts that statisticians are so good picking the right date to start. They look really good. Sorry for my sarcasm and he said I'm not now, I see. So obviously he was a visual, so I've always had diagrams, particularly I like doing 3D diagrams and color in things like that to make it kind of artistic. Sorry, I can't draw, but I can actually do charts and graphs. \n\nSo we have a procedure that goes into circle which is never ending in terms of getting to know you, because we're not so brilliant that we can say at hello, I have got a great idea for your money, yeah, congratulations. And I talked to those people and if you're on LinkedIn, you get about 10 messages a day from people who want to connect with you and then have a value add, which is not a value add, it's just a bit. Would love to talk to you. But we first get to know our clients, get to find out what they've done, what their values are, who has already picked their pocket, who they really enjoy, who their golden apple or eggs are, who their kids are the good ones, the bad ones and the ones they hate to talk about so we can give them some helpful hints in terms of that sort of stuff. \n\nAnd yes, we do it in a humorous way, but we also record things and document every stinking thing, because I spent five years doing litigative support on a criminal tax and securities cases. So if it's not documented, it didn't happen. So it was absolutely that way. And then we send people a mind map which actually gives you a visual picture of you, your family and what it is you want to be when you grow up, whether you decide to grow up or not. And then we follow up and follow up like like made an ant that have nothing better to do. \n\nJJ Checki\nAnd that mind map is quite healthy helpful, excuse me because it gives a snapshot of who they are, where they are, where they're wanting to go, and it's a pretty good representation on one sheet of paper of what they want to accomplish and what they have accomplished. So it gives a roadmap for not just the early meetings but later on as well, of saying what's changed, Is this still what we're working towards? Have we accomplished that so we can check it off or move maybe categories and that's already now done and experientially. \n\nJohn Checki\nWe had a case where you meet a guy. He's, by himself, never been married. He married somebody who is a widow, was a ready-made family, so he suddenly goes through the holy guacamole. He had no idea how much marriage would change my life. And you're thinking I know you're not trying to be funny, but that was one of the funniest things I've heard this week. \n\nSo we drew a mind map for he and his wife and we went over each one of their kids, and their kids had a lot more stories than I've ever heard before, which is really saying something. So I just said, okay, we're going to put a diagram together in terms of a couple of different trust ideas for you, because one of them had lots of assets and one of them had lots of stories, which is a common situation. And this person was not some incredibly knockdown drag out lovely woman, just two normal Christian people who just were lucky enough to find each other, both widows. He was a widow or she was a widow, which is a great idea. Kids, you can't hear anything If you are a widow or a widow, you're much better off with a widow and widow, or as opposed to, yeah, the hunters of the world. But anyway. \n\nSo we did that and that document changed over time. She started to identify some of the problems within her family and decided to take measures. It reminded me when my kids were in college and I married a lady who had a couple of kids and I was paying half the tuition and her first husband father the kids was paying half the tuition. And then one day I got really tired of doing that. So I invited my darling wife to go ahead and start to get a job and help support her kids college habit. And when she discovered that she was making money and hadn't turned it over to the kids, she really got on their case and helped them straighten up and what have you? And eventually cut them off A lot of interest. \n\nYeah, yeah, because once somebody starts to pick your pocket, so we kind of help people with their blind size. And for husbands that think they can do everything all by themselves, we are great stress relievers and we can give you peace of mind because when markets change or other things happen, instead of pointing that finger at you, she can say or you can say you better call JJ or John or both of them because it's their fault, or thank them. \n\nJJ Checki\nI'm glad you referenced that working towards peace of mind, but it also reminded me of another story is a body shop owner that's a client had given him one of the books one day and I guess this was before he became a client and gave him the book. One day he's in his kitchen or whatever, looking for the book and he can't find it. So he asks his wife, he goes what happened to the book? She goes I'm reading it. So and then fast forward a little bit. When they had something coming up financially, she said to before you do anything else, give JJ a call. So literally that generated because I got a book in his hand and then the wife's hand ultimately, and to have a game opportunity to help for their family. \n\nStuart Bell\nThis idea you were talking about Robert Chavini before, and the whole idea of influence and persuasion In the nicest possible sense. The book is telling people what you want them to hear and what makes them an ideal client for you, meaning that you can have them to death. The fact that it's delivered in a package which has an outsized amount of credibility for technically what is, and glued together pieces of paper from Amazon. It needs that message so that now when you're saying something to people, you're not saying it for the first time and it's almost like you're repeating what the author of the book said, although obviously it's the same person. So this idea that it needs it goes ahead of you and starts the message and gets people aligned to the thinking and then, if they're aligned enough to knock on the door or jump on Zoom, you're already 10 steps down the process. \n\nThe other thing that sprained the mind as you were talking this idea of the mind map. In the scorecard book that I've got for the book blueprint scorecard, one of the ideas there is a purposeful outline and I'm a big mind mapper as opposed to like nesting or drawing things out. So the visual representation, both the clarity in the situation as it develops and the avoidance of doubt and the unique way that you're packaging it. I mean, I've done lots of these calls and we've helped a thousand people and a lot of them are financial advisors. It's the first time I've ever described someone doing the KYC and again to know people type thing and then mind mapping out so as a unique tool to help the whole process, talking about that, potentially having it mentioned in the book or, if not in the book, mentioning it when you first come in and then reinforcing it all the way through the process. It's just a way of building on itself in a way that amplifies the instructions or that further. \n\nJohn Checki\nwe learned over a period of time through John Bowen's work with group called CEG worldwide in terms of identifying the various types of people who accumulate wealth and which one of those you were that would be in my case and in JJ's case and which ones you really did not want to be anywhere around. And that was really handy. And on that mind map you can also, on the top of that, put down who this person actually is, which is very handy. And let them know that if we're trying to build a legacy, we're rowing the boat in the same direction and we understand that everybody who has at least three kids usually has that one kid. That changes your whole facial expression when you mention that kid's name, not in JJ's. He has three amazing children who are just well, well, well schooled and they're very polite. Even if they weren't my grandchildren, they're lovely people to have over because they're pleased and thank you folks, and they're absolutely amazing and of course they're above average like everybody's grandchildren, but that's another story. \n\nBut in terms of families, almost everybody has a reason why attorneys invented a spend thrift trust or a special needs trust and what we do to kind of underscore what check your financial dose is. We find people who think, whatever problem you have, one specific problem was the most interesting question they ever heard in their life and they researched the BG's out of that and they usually the top gun, whether it's Dean Jackson who comes up with more marketing ideas and one throwaway conversation that anybody ever talked about in your entire life and they just kind of have everybody in a state of awe because everybody who knows anything has heard of that person and wishes they had lunch with that person just one time and got to actually talk with them. And at least one of us has been lucky enough to pick the brains of some of the smartest people and their dues to pay to get to go ahead and talk to those people. You don't just hop in one day hey. \n\nTony, you got a minute that's not coming up, so when as you're paying your dues, and JJ is absolutely amazing at being in groups and making speeches and being on panels and he also publicizes the people that he sees on a regular basis, and JJ, why don't you highlight that? Yeah? \n\nJJ Checki\nit's something fun that I started doing earlier this year. I'd pop as a great example of sharing videos about everyday life. So I started doing that a little over a year ago, but more recently I started highlighting the people. I'm saying I'm at a networking event and highlighting some of the people who are there. So maybe it's a lady who's launching her company called Kid Cakes that her and her children literally brought about and took a video with her, shared it. So it's just us two talking say hey, who am I with today? And getting her share her story and then putting it out there. \n\nOr it's the local coffee shop to chai for that we frequently go to. So just, you know, to highlight other people. Back to the give and the influence is helping other people get in front of the audience that they want to get in front of and we're going to get taken care of. People are going to come and see us in one way or another. So it's just great getting to highlight others and, in the process, build up community and when it's the right time for someone to talk to us, then they know where to find us. \n\nJohn Checki\nWhich is how we actually pondered on in this podcast. Well, stuart was interviewing another fellow that I know from another group that lives in, of all places, england, so you two understood each other. I understand either one of you. He was talking about how we could do something and it turns out it's been my experience, having worked with people who worked on the atomic bomb and the New York rocket and other things like that Not Greg and just happened to be lucky to get in a battery charge. And a guy who worked at a lab said hey, John, what are you? \n\ndoing? Why don't you come to the lab they're hiring? It was 1967. An interesting time. But periodically you'll just run across people who really are amazing and if you highlight them they might remember you. I'll tell you the last joke on that. Perhaps and here it is If we do a bad job, or if you do a bad job, people will stop strangers on the street corner to talk about you. But if you do a great job somebody who asks you again and again do you know anybody who does that? You might actually mention that person's name. \n\nStuart Bell\nYeah, it's interesting the dynamics of the different way around. We talk about orchestrated referrals in a way of not having passive referrals hoping that someone will mention it, but giving them the opportunity to remember to mention it at the right time. Because most people's experience of a referral is they'll be talking to the referee, their friends and they'll friend will say oh, you know what? I was just talking to, Mary, last week, and I wish I remembered that you did what you did Not, because with all the will in the world you would like to have made that recommendation, that referral, but people never think, whereas the passion and the vitriol and the bad blood that comes along with the bad experience Years ago a couple of financial advisors from New York and they were from upstate New York, not the city, and people upstate New York, just like normal people with the people in New York, are even more chatty than I am in terms of a harsh sort of way, and they'll take that as a compliment. \n\nJohn Checki\nBut the guys from New York said we don't ask for referrals. We say if you give us a referral we'll never call them. So if you have somebody that wants to work with us, have them call us, because I'm not not asking you for names, not asking you for a list, I'm not telling. I get paid in three ways, not doing any of that silliness. So if you run across somebody that mentioned this stuff and you think we could be a good fit for them, have them, give us a call. And here's the reasoning If someone reaches out and picks up that 400 pound instrument known as a telephone and calls a stranger about one of the most sensitive topics on earth, they're really interested in talking to us. But if a complete stranger calls and says Mary Lou talked about me the other day or you the other day, and she said you have a problem with your finances, wouldn't you like to talk to us. That's not going to work out very well. \n\nStuart Bell\nThat idea of making sure that it's a human to human contact in the way that it is as effective as possible for people. It doesn't take much to think about it, but it's some of the many people don't think about it because they're doing day-to-day business. So I really love what you guys are doing across the board, both in reaching out with the book as a tool to start those conversations in a friendly way. What JJ is doing with the video is highlighting other people in the local area, not only to give you the opportunity to kind of be an influence maker or conversation maker, but if nothing else, it's just fun and entertaining. I mean, life goes fast and if it's a drag every day then it's a much longer journey than if it's fun. \n\nJohn Checki\nAnd for those of you wondering why there's so many jokes or what have you, it's funny within where I talk. When I first started financial planning, they said to not be funny when you give a speech. And despite trying my very best to not be funny while giving a speech on financial planning, people would laugh and I'd look at them and say that is not funny. And they'd say that is absolutely funny. So then a friend of mine said you should go to stand-up comedy school to learn how not to step on the laughs. \n\nSo there's nothing frightening than anybody talking to you about your most sensitive topic after health, and that is about your money, because everybody fears losing everything, living under a bridge and regretting that decision that you made that cost you your family, your future and your home. \n\nStuart Bell\nAnd I think it makes it much more accessible. In having those conversations where it's all doom and gloom and making people feel bad about their decisions or putting all the risk back on them so that they're not enthusiastic about making a choice Very different experience from bringing people along with the journey in a positive way, and I think that's what really comes across both in the book and, obviously, in talking with people. \n\nJohn Checki\nWe also have some people that, despite being very good at not spending as much money as they make, even just talking about social security and some penting stuff, and they came up with the expression. One of the clients has been a client since 1992 and he's referred to me by his big brother, who was the chief economist of IDS American Express at the time, not making that up, and he said I want belt and suspenders on my investments I call them once a quarter to go over it and have for the last several years just assuring them honest to God, everything is just fine and there are ways to do that. And JJ, you've had it reached in case on that very subject where a guy got impatient with the fact that he was the only guy in a bear market that was losing money. \n\nJJ Checki\nYeah, there's different product that will right fit for the people, which is the importance of get to know your client. So if, whether it's a client who invests in real estate and that's his business as well, well, there's certain things that can benefit him more, maybe covering his liabilities I'll just leave it at that. Or there's other investments that people are more interested in, the potential to gain what would have some protection as well. So there's definitely just finding what that pain point is. If someone doesn't care about some of those features, well, you go in a different direction. But if there's something that fits, it's finding someone tells me what they want and then finding what fits best for that situation. \n\nSo by no means I like to do this one, by no means is hey, here's a container, who wants it? No, it's. Who are you? What do you want? What do you want to accomplish? Now let me, if I don't already know the answer right away, let me go and research that with other experts who are passionate about what they do and bring the right solution to you and let's talk. So it's a very least. That to us is that is the backward, that's the way it should be done and is done. \n\nJohn Checki\nWe do have two requirements of clients. So that is number one you need to have a sense of humor. And number two and this is absolutely more essential even than number one you have to be coachable. If all you want to do is what you've already done, there's really no need for us to infringe on the amazing work you're already doing without having to share our own, without having to share our own stories. \n\nJJ Checki\nI'm sure that people that can may come to mind in your own world of someone that you could help greatly but isn't interested in your advice. So there's no reason beat your head against the wall to see if in fact, it eventually you break the wall versus your head. So finding people who actually are coachable and willing to not just willing, but ready to take advice and take action. \n\nJohn Checki\nSo so don't waste any time going to a donut shop and giving a talk on physical fitness. \n\nStuart Bell\nAnd that, in a way, is another reason why books are effective in the funnel, because, even with the expectation that people aren't reading it cover to cover, but there's an expectation that they're receiving it, they're aware of what it is and at the very least, look at the table of contents to get a feel that they're in the right place. And anyone who's positively reading back the chapter titles to you or referencing things that you've written, that is evidence that they are coachable, because the people who don't want to know are probably not even going to go as far as saying, yes, I'm a reader and take the copy of the book that you're offering. \n\nJJ Checki\nI think I said that earlier I don't remember if it was pre-podcast or in the podcast is, even when I'm talking with someone and I ask if they're, if they like to read, they're a reader. Say yes or no and then say if you'd like a copy, here's a copy of the book and if they hesitate I'll go. I don't need to add to the stack on your shelf, it doesn't bother me at all and actually saves me money by not sending you the book. So no worries at all and just move on to the next. Move on with whatever we're talking about. So it's fun. \n\nJohn Checki\nYeah, the process of 90-minute books is painless. They really coach you through it. They've been doing it now for enough years where they know what they are doing and their staff does too. There's a good fit. They kind of help you through it. And what we did to finally finish up with the book is they supplied us with some artwork in terms of what the cover could look like. And I learned a long time ago it's a much better idea to show the people who already like you and have done business with you and are still doing business with you say, hey, which one of these covers most describes us and resonates with you? And we did that, took a survey because it's always easier to find out. But people, not you, not your son, not your wife, not your grumpy whatever, we don't have any of those Like, but you're satisfied, happy, advocating for you, clients like and what a great way of involving people in the process. \n\nStuart Bell\nKnowing that book is about to be created, they've got an engaged view of what, what's happened, they feel a part of it, a part of the family. So to then be able to go back once it's created and say, hey, thanks for your imports, it's finished now. If you know anyone who would benefit from that, just let us know and we'll get a copy. The great way of including people, which, again, is like he likes to bake. \n\nJohn Checki\nI've encouraged him and he's picked it up in terms of actually passing out various treats that he and his amazing, gifted and talented family actually make. The JJ and his family are skilled bakers for sure, and I've encouraged them to go ahead and do that. All I do with people is give them sermenettes and occasionally have to go over for some wonderful red sauce in the Southern Italian tradition. \n\nStuart Bell\nI don't usually feel any resentment of working virtually and being either in Florida or Pennsylvania, but now I kind of wish I was a little bit closer to you guys. I must need lunch, because that sounds good. \n\nJJ Checki\nOh, we came across, so I have to share this, since you just prepped or kind of introduced. It is. We have some delicious cookies on our stove, on our kitchen counter right now. It's a combination of s'mores, traditional graham cracker, marshmallow chocolate and chocolate chip cookies. I can't stand the recipe where you actually combine both and bake it and they're as good as it sounds. \n\nJohn Checki\nThey're delicious and also JJ is helping one of his client friends with their business and that were actually our treats and has passed those out to people and sent those to people that are now in the office, because an awful lot of people like to meet virtually as opposed to in person. My widows and widowers much prefer meeting in person because they've already been stung and they have a sense of needing to have physical contact. So we are lucky enough here in the Dallas Fort Worth area to still have offices that still let people in. You don't have to worry about asking, unless you just want to have one. \n\nStuart Bell\nAnd, like I say, along with everything that, the circle that you were talking about in terms of getting to know the clients and what's the right fit for them, being able to offer virtual and in person, it's just being adaptive to the times and what the individual person needs, rather than a one size fits all. I always say that time goes fast. In the podcast piece I kind of say, well, talk for half an hour and then we'll get to that point and see where we are. Even it's in already. It'd be great to get back with you guys at some point in the future and do a follow up. In the meantime, what's a good place that people can go to learn more about the organization, either just to see what you're doing or if they're in the room? \n\nJohn Checki\nI have displayed our website, which is not very hard to realize. It's checkiefinancialcom and JJ. Why don't you describe or display your phone number also, just for me. \n\nJJ Checki\nWell, yeah, for me, I would say that the LinkedIn is definitely a good place to go. So my name. So if I could figure out how to change my name on the screen. \n\nStuart Bell\nBut to LinkedIn yeah, if you look up there, yeah, so JJ check it, a third on me. \n\nJJ Checki\nSo junior is actually my pop, so that throws people off. But yeah, so it's, that's fun stuff. \n\nStuart Bell\nWell, I make sure that I put the links directly to both of them in the show notes. So thank you Listening both on podcast players, all on the website. They can just click straight through and we both do lots of videos. \n\nJohn Checki\nMy videos are more centered around the doves that live in our atrium, the various herbs and they're all legal herbs that I put in pasta sauce not the kind of herb that you just thought of in terms of those of you that are into psych and my darling wife, who's in show business and sings with the new kings of swing and teaches yoga and spin movies and recorded and was a contemporary of Madonna but decided not to live in a castle in her old age, says why do you keep doing videos? Who on earth is interested in that? One of our clients not even one of my happier clients, with client that likes JJ a lot more than he likes me because I asked him too many personal questions, said I really enjoy those videos. \n\nWe encourage people to do videos, and JJ does them highlighting other people's businesses, which is a very generous thing that you do, jj, so congratulations on doing that. \n\nJJ Checki\nThank you. I like doing a mixture of personal whether it's the rock climbing gym, a fun outing for the family, our kitchen baking s'mores, or more on the professional side, of a lesson learned in a particular setting or and highlighting others. So I'm having a lot of fun with it Once again, originally highlighted from my pop taking videos all the time. Then I finally realized well, this is a good way to get in front of people, so I'm doing that more now. \n\nStuart Bell\nWell, I'll tell you what. If you want to view, can see me the links to both of those channels. I'll make sure I include those in the notes as well, because I think this idea that business is so it's easy to get stuck in the weeds on the day to day stuff, but if you can find a way to make some expression outside of connections with real people, it just puts much more of a human touch on things. \n\nJohn Checki\nAnd we do have the very last, very last point. Years ago I was shooting some videos and when you do videos in your financial advisors, tough to get those through compliance. So I submitted the scripts and what have you? And JJ and I you can see we have good rapport with each other because we've known each other all his life and the videographer said, oh, I'd love to shoot a video of YouTube. \n\nAnd I said you know, you have no idea the trouble I went through to get that one. But so I said, just to shut you up, we did that. So I just pointed to JJ and said JJ, what have you learned over the last couple of years? And you can see a very proud father when it's on the YouTube and it's John Checke TV channel on YouTube where JJ reshotted exactly what we do, how we did it. And you can see a very proud father realizing that his son has actually listened to us and learned what we actually do and can actually say it all by himself, with no prompting other than just being asked a question. So that's a vintage JJ way back when he knows even more now than he did back then. \n\nStuart Bell\nBut the connection that you guys have got is fantastic. My family is still back in the UK, fortunately, my brother's in the US and we work quite closely together. So I appreciate that family connection and it comes to it. I can only imagine the sense of the clients have got when they're getting both sides and both characters and both approaches. It really is much more. It's a synergistic result. The thumb is far greater than the two big individual parts. Thanks for your time. This really has gone fast. I know I think I say every episode. It really has gone fast. It'd be great to check in at some point in the future. In the meantime, as I say, I'll put all of the links directly to you guys and the company in the show notes so people can find. But again, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure, and everyone for listening. I'm sure you've got lots. Check out John and JJ and we'll catch you in the next one. \n\nJohn Checki\nHave fun and stay well. Thank you, have fun. Thanks, Stuart. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with John and JJ Checki. Father & son Financial Planning team based in Texas, and authors of a great book,_ Spend Time and Save Money_.
\n\nTheir book is a fun introduction to their approach to retirement and helps people approach the subject from the perspective of living a great retirement rather than getting stuck in the weeds of financial planning.
\n\nWe had the opportunity to discuss the process and the simplest way to create a book that starts the conversation. We also spoke about the idea that your book should be a living document rather than something carved in stone, allowing you to tweak and update it over time as you get real-world feedback on what resonates with clients.
\n\nThe episode has some great ideas on how to use a book to find more leads, no matter what business you're in.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nJJ Checki
\n Linkedin | Bookclub
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/144
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nJohn Checki
\nSo, guys, welcome to the show, thank you, thank you, and we underscore that for the rest of you listening or watching, I've met the other founder of it, gene Jackson, a wonderfully genius of a fellow, and if you use the internet at all for marketing, you're using some of the techniques that he invented low those many years ago. And if you're lucky enough to play golf with him, tony Robbins, congratulations. If not, like the rest of us, you just have to get a reservation. But this book has been a great help to us, particularly for JJ and JJ. I'll let you fill in that part of the blank.
JJ Checki
\nYes, definitely Well one. The writing process was fun, which is probably how you had that conversation with Mark is. I highlight that to people who stop and ask about the process. What was that like? What was the experience? And I definitely point to 90 minute books because that was a pleasurable experience. It's own fun story how it did the opportunity came to be. But as far as the book itself, it's definitely been amazing have a resource to be able to give to somebody, whether that's a PDF version if they want a free one, or whether they want me to sign one and send it to them as well. So it definitely been a great resource and love having the opportunity to be able to do that.
John Checki
\nAnother feature of it. I've met any number of people who tell horror stories about how they had a book printed up and they have either their garage or a warehouse or an extra storage facility full of books. And you do not have to do that, no kidding, you just order them as you need them. It comes with a certain variety of books I forget how many it is but you don't order caseloads of books just so your wife or husband or friends can give you some grief and the mice love something to eat.
Stuart Bell
\nYeah, we're definitely trying to mice.
For you to stress, you've had it.
\n\nI want to say a few weeks ago, but it was probably a few months ago and I where they had that exact experience and in fact it got worse because they had some that were ordered but it had gone out of date some of the content and they needed to update it. But I think the original company had gone out of business but everything was printed in the company's name so they couldn't get access to any of the assets, so it really became a bit of a gravestone of a project that was then collecting dust in the back of the room. So this idea that we're creating a living document and the fact that we happened to be in a point in time where a book is a very effective way of starting a conversation with people, but the book itself isn't the product, it's a living version, why don't we jump back a little bit and think about how you guys came to the point of wanting to write a book in the first place? Was it a long burning passion or specifically thinking about the market.
\n\nJJ Checki
\nIf you want me to answer that first and then John can go, the more in depth.
John Checki
\nGo right ahead.
JJ Checki
\nI have this fun. The fun version or the silly version of it is once when we had the physical office here in the Dallas Fort Worth area. I walk into the office one morning and haven't even gotten to my desk yet and pop, as I call him. John looks at me and says we're writing a book, like okay, good morning. So it says, yeah, I just hired 90 minute books for to help us get to our message. Out there we're starting, and whatever day it was like okay, here we go, we're writing a book.
So John had a much more in depth answer to that, but that was my experience.
\n\nJohn Checki
\nI, since the earth cooled, have written things down on pieces of paper and I really trained myself when I went to Texas Christian University thinking that I was going to become a novelist and JJ's mom was kind enough to support us for a short, happy period of time when I was affectionately referred to as an unpublished novelist. And after three of those in a couple of years I got really tired of being a supported bum so I went and got to be a certified public account. But I've been working on a book title called how to have Fun and Still have Money for years and I even put a manuscript together and miraculously got it through compliance and I had to remind compliance when I put that on our website a couple of years back, because they keep forgetting stuff, we're losing files and if you keep fine, jj's, we're going to keep in file. I wanted to have a project that we did together. That's point number one. Point number two most people have an idea of some burning desire to share their ideas. Particularly financial advisors always have a hard luck story when they started, which is why we want to make sure no one else has that same hard luck story If you're making twice your age and it's back in 1980 and you're 40 and you're making $80,000 and your boss comes to your office and says if you could find a job by next Tuesday and it's Thursday that would be a great thing. And I thought the probability of May they just changed the tax law and gutted three different industries in Dallas of finding that kind of a job in five days is nominal. So we've renegotiated in terms of that and I became a financial advisor and much more appreciated that than being a tax guy.
But in terms of a message, jj's had a great period of time while he's networking, mentioning the book, passing out the book to people without asking immediately for an order. I was at a place called Osteo Strong and I was just chatting with a little lady because basically, people of our age I'm only 75, working and getting to be more than 75. And I just said to the lady because I gave their first speech, they gave on what Osteo Strong was about the advantages of aging, which is great fun. And I handed her the book and she looked at me and said huh, start a conversation, hand me a book. What do you ask me to do next? Write you a check. And I said I'm sure you have met in your lifetime or like that. But I'm just giving you a book. If you enjoy it, great.
\n\nJJ Checki
\nand if not, at least you can keep a door open with it and I've even started prefaceing that and saying are you a reader? And if they say yes, well, like, why have a book? If you're interested here you go, and if they kind of waffle, I go. You save me money by actually not taking the book. So if you don't want it, not going to bother me at all.
Stuart Bell
\nIt's such a great point that it starts the conversation in a giving where, not with people's defenses up. You're going into something genuinely trying to help them and from that some business will come. But that's not, I think, for all of the podcasts, as people listen back and most of the people that we're working with, everyone's coming from this perspective if wanting to share and help first, in the belief that business will come later, not trying to ram something down people's throat and here on the planet earth.
John Checki
\nA helpful hint to anybody watching or listening is if you provide value first and you can demonstrate you're not a pickpocket even though you may or may not look like a pickpocket not any of us puts people at ease and if you've read Dr Kildini at all in terms of how people's minds kind of work and he wrote a book years and years ago and took 20 years for that message to actually become popular. Oh, by the way, and it was to help people defend themselves against the techniques that salespeople used on. I'm going to call them their victims, as opposed to their market. And instead of being appealing to that market, it turned out the people that he was trying to vilify, criticize. Salespeople kept hiring Chaldeany to come to their events, to talk to them, to teach them how to use these techniques.
Stuart Bell
\nThere is that underlying belief that anything can work, for God or evil, and some techniques because it's helping people, but certainly be aware of the risks of the same techniques working and to kind of underscore that you can even include this in one of your books, and that is simply this.
John Checki
\nOnce JJ and I were being interviewed by an attorney who, comedically enough, was an ambulance chasing attorney but despite that, was very nice man and he had longed us. Part of his office periodically when we were in Austin, was really grilling us like attorneys like to do, and his wife was there too, because we always like to have both sides of the story. And I said, to summarize this I'm not sure if it's a U5 or U4, I get this so confused but I've been in business for 35 years and my office has always been five miles of the same location. You get to a very small circle and that's where I've been for the last 35 years and there are no complaints.
JJ Checki
\nRight In our industry that's the equivalent of a forensic background check is the broker check. So if you look at that and it's clean, that means something. And if someone.
John Checki
\nIf you're not in Phoenix for a few years, then get kicked out of town and they go to Atlanta for a few years.
Stuart Bell
\nAnd the people who are basically migratory con artists, especially in the state business- as I say, the propensity of people writing negative reviews as opposed to positive reviews, the fact that you've got that, all of that social proof coming through, that you're delivering what you say and the conversations that you're starting manifest into some kind of real, tangible benefits at the end of it, such as Game Changer, particularly like saying, financial services.
John Checki
\nAbout somebody with white hair working with somebody with just a salt and pepper beard. Jd, tell us what you've discovered about testimonials and financial advisors.
JJ Checki
\nWell, it made me think of not having one. Always has the younger counterpart that's working together, but it does help on both directions. You have young and old clients looking at both of us and they might point to one or the other. They might say we're comfortable hiring you because pop is his experience. Or the opposite side. They'll say we want to hire you because we know long term you're going to be there with us At some point in the distant future. John will eventually hang it up and sail off into the sunset, but I'm not holding my breath.
Stuart Bell
\nAgain the feeling that he's going to be both of us in this race.
John Checki
\nActually, the oldest financial advisor in the United States is in New York. I forget his last name, but he's only 106 years old. The big change for those of you that are in the financial business is now financial advisors according to what JD just found out a couple of weeks ago now can have testimonials which in the past you could not even have someone who loved you to death send out a referral card to somebody else when I first became a CPA. If you had JJ as your CPA and you came to me and said I want to fire JJ and hire you back when I became a CPA in 1976, I would have to call JJ and say you might want to call Stuart because I think you have a problem with him. I couldn't even give him my card in 1976. The world has changed a great deal.
Stuart Bell
\nAs an opportunity we talked briefly about. We'll start talking about the book being a living document, not this thing that's cast in stone and then you're going to sink a swim with it. But the idea of now, the landscape has changed. You've got the opportunity to use the book as a tool in this new landscape, with all the references and testimonials and the opportunity for people to share. Not only can they make those on social media as an example or linked in, or you could now include them in the book where you couldn't before, but you can also reach out to existing clients and use the book as a referral tool, saying, hey, we were talking about potentially tweaking something within the book.
Now, even though it's two, three years later after the first version was out, reaching back out to those existing clients and say, hey, we've just made it up to the book. Many people get it as possible, the great feedback. If you want to get it on social media, that's fine. If you want to, just let us know and we'll send you some copies to give to the person that you're thinking of. This idea of treating it as a living asset. It can update itself and flex and change depending on the market conditions or the rule changes. It's such a more empowering way of thinking as a book as a tool, rather than just the book is the product trying to write something, it's got an ISBN and that's it for all an eternity.
\n\nJohn Checki
\nAnd since modern businesses are evolving, where more and more people are saving an hour or two a day by not commuting from home to wherever the office used to be, and I used to have a nice collection of Jaguars and Mercedes Benzes and Alexis parked in the parking garage where our office was, because there were so many extra parking spaces available during the beginning of the pandemic, if we got a better offer and tried to convince the landlord that you know, I could shoot a cannon in the parking lot and the only thing I would hit would be a wall. So could you give us a reduction on our rent? And he said, no, this is a hot market. And I thought okay, we left that suite a year ago and it's still empty. Oh, by the way, so for those of you who are in one spot and thinking, gee, willikers, I don't want to put my address and my partners and what have you on the book. You can do that and later revise it later on, so you're not making it.
Stuart Bell
\nAbsolutely. I'm making it as tailored as possible to the moment and then changing it if necessary to the next moment as I change, compared to trying to make something generic that's trying to fit all purposes. We often talk about our price point, as you guys know, is that we try to keep it as cost effective as possible, because that way then people can write books as they would think about a campaign. So, rather than writing a best seller type book where it's a kind of one and done, lock yourself in the cabin and have an unpleasant experience of writing for months and months thinking about it as this campaign, this is the most effective tool for this campaign and the mayor may not be another campaign and another further down the track or changes to tail of it.
John Checki
\nAnd JJ, if you don't mind, why don't you tell us about your participation in the dictation of the book with? That was like for you.
JJ Checki
\nOh, definitely Well, one I wanted to highlight with Stuart just said, which was another one of your podcasts. The author referenced that one particular section of the book really stood out and people really resonated with. So he's actually now peeling that out of the book and call it recreating. But using that as the basis for the second book that he's writing is because that was the tool that most people liked, or liked the most out of the book. So that's awfully an interesting concept as well, to be able to living, breathing thing versus just standing still.
So, and your question was the writing process or the dictating process. It was actually pleasure to be a part of. So, obviously, the outline you start with that. What are we writing about? What's the purpose of the book? Set that make sure it's set up in place.
\n\nAnd then the actual interview was, which was a lot of fun. We enjoyed it. We had a good time, which you would expect from the title and the subject. As far as how we operate and finances, it's a serious thing, but at the same time, we like to have a good time with it. We like to actually exchange with our clients, not just to drive financial reports. So actually getting to write it and share some personal stories about the family, about some of the just the different stories that are in it. It was just a lot of fun and enjoyed the opportunity, of course, to work with my pop, and also it's fun to have both of us be on the back cover, so as we handed out, you guys like you might recognize somebody on this book in front of you, so it's a lot of fun.
\n\nJohn Checki
\nAnother side now. I was talking to a fellow who's representing a major insurance company that you see, way else, jump out of the water behind a golf, what have you? And he said how did you happen to find JJ? And I looked at him and I said do you notice how much he looks like me? And he said yes my son and we have the same name.
JJ Checki
\nYes.
Stuart Bell
\nI just looked there nine months later and he was out, so it's been a long. I couldn't get any staff, so I had to create my own.
John Checki
\nAnd I did. For those of you who aren't in business, the oldest family business in the world is a Japanese company that's 1500 years old and they make, as I recall, buddhist temples. And there is a department in the University of Monterey and not California, but Mexico that devotes itself to family run businesses.
So, there's a long history not just Johnson and the Ford Motor Company of businesses which are family businesses. So I encourage you to go look at those various sources and, for those of you who are having trouble finding people that you'd like to hand it off to you might take a look at your family and find the one or two or three responsible ones out of the kids that you have, who you can do that or you can do the get off this ramp. You use the Roman custom of adoption, where you find somebody who's amazing and you have him or her or they sign an agreement that will actually take over your business but make sure your family is okay, which is where the word adoption came from.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThat's an interesting background to the entomology of the word and actually that resonates a little bit with the podcast from last week with John Neuching, who they do a lot of family wealth and private office type business and their experience is really trying to make sure that transition is as smooth as possible. I think there's a lot of time where people, particularly on the smaller side of business, perhaps think of things as is almost an extension of self-employment, not really thinking of the business as an entity.
John Checki
\nBut when you start thinking about bringing in other family members it really gives that inter generational opportunity and to kind of underscore that further, when JJ first went from being a youth pastor for 10 years to helping me with my business, we put down procedures because I, as you might be able to tell from my pace of speech, am a nine quick start on a scale of 10. And JJ, what was your score?
JJ Checki
\nI believe mine was a one.
John Checki
\nScale of one to 10.
JJ Checki
\nI was one, he was nine.
Stuart Bell
\nSo JJ doesn't seem like he would cause any problems at all.
John Checki
\nYeah, actually the probability of being able to work with anybody more than two points beside you is a non-start Right Statistically speaking. But you know you can't. I can't too well to make another sign, but that's another story. Jj is a natural baker, just like his mom was. She's since deceased, so he follows recipes very well and I have a wonderful cook, an Italian specialty, and particularly don't follow recipes. So we have procedures for JJ and we call that a three-ring binder, thanks to a particular mentor of ours, and it's been very helpful.
Stuart Bell
\nThis idea of kind of translating that into how you help the clients, this idea of proceduralizing things and having a formula to work to, that kind of represents itself in the book to a certain degree, because you're presenting these, this framework of ideas that you then obviously talking to when you eventually meet people. So the proceduralizing of placing things in the three-ring binder and then how you're working with clients was the client work always that way was always a lot more procedural, just because the nature of the work it was in my case, and I'll tell you why.
John Checki
\nI'm a rather studious person by nature. It may not seem like it, but I always do a lot of research and I found that there are several different ways that people actually learn. And I was talking to a client of mine who was a chief lobbyist for a major company and he's a brilliant guy and he kept saying to me I just don't see what you're saying. So I turned to the back of the prospectus and it had one of those amazing charts that statisticians are so good picking the right date to start. They look really good. Sorry for my sarcasm and he said I'm not now, I see. So obviously he was a visual, so I've always had diagrams, particularly I like doing 3D diagrams and color in things like that to make it kind of artistic. Sorry, I can't draw, but I can actually do charts and graphs.
So we have a procedure that goes into circle which is never ending in terms of getting to know you, because we're not so brilliant that we can say at hello, I have got a great idea for your money, yeah, congratulations. And I talked to those people and if you're on LinkedIn, you get about 10 messages a day from people who want to connect with you and then have a value add, which is not a value add, it's just a bit. Would love to talk to you. But we first get to know our clients, get to find out what they've done, what their values are, who has already picked their pocket, who they really enjoy, who their golden apple or eggs are, who their kids are the good ones, the bad ones and the ones they hate to talk about so we can give them some helpful hints in terms of that sort of stuff.
\n\nAnd yes, we do it in a humorous way, but we also record things and document every stinking thing, because I spent five years doing litigative support on a criminal tax and securities cases. So if it's not documented, it didn't happen. So it was absolutely that way. And then we send people a mind map which actually gives you a visual picture of you, your family and what it is you want to be when you grow up, whether you decide to grow up or not. And then we follow up and follow up like like made an ant that have nothing better to do.
\n\nJJ Checki
\nAnd that mind map is quite healthy helpful, excuse me because it gives a snapshot of who they are, where they are, where they're wanting to go, and it's a pretty good representation on one sheet of paper of what they want to accomplish and what they have accomplished. So it gives a roadmap for not just the early meetings but later on as well, of saying what's changed, Is this still what we're working towards? Have we accomplished that so we can check it off or move maybe categories and that's already now done and experientially.
John Checki
\nWe had a case where you meet a guy. He's, by himself, never been married. He married somebody who is a widow, was a ready-made family, so he suddenly goes through the holy guacamole. He had no idea how much marriage would change my life. And you're thinking I know you're not trying to be funny, but that was one of the funniest things I've heard this week.
So we drew a mind map for he and his wife and we went over each one of their kids, and their kids had a lot more stories than I've ever heard before, which is really saying something. So I just said, okay, we're going to put a diagram together in terms of a couple of different trust ideas for you, because one of them had lots of assets and one of them had lots of stories, which is a common situation. And this person was not some incredibly knockdown drag out lovely woman, just two normal Christian people who just were lucky enough to find each other, both widows. He was a widow or she was a widow, which is a great idea. Kids, you can't hear anything If you are a widow or a widow, you're much better off with a widow and widow, or as opposed to, yeah, the hunters of the world. But anyway.
\n\nSo we did that and that document changed over time. She started to identify some of the problems within her family and decided to take measures. It reminded me when my kids were in college and I married a lady who had a couple of kids and I was paying half the tuition and her first husband father the kids was paying half the tuition. And then one day I got really tired of doing that. So I invited my darling wife to go ahead and start to get a job and help support her kids college habit. And when she discovered that she was making money and hadn't turned it over to the kids, she really got on their case and helped them straighten up and what have you? And eventually cut them off A lot of interest.
\n\nYeah, yeah, because once somebody starts to pick your pocket, so we kind of help people with their blind size. And for husbands that think they can do everything all by themselves, we are great stress relievers and we can give you peace of mind because when markets change or other things happen, instead of pointing that finger at you, she can say or you can say you better call JJ or John or both of them because it's their fault, or thank them.
\n\nJJ Checki
\nI'm glad you referenced that working towards peace of mind, but it also reminded me of another story is a body shop owner that's a client had given him one of the books one day and I guess this was before he became a client and gave him the book. One day he's in his kitchen or whatever, looking for the book and he can't find it. So he asks his wife, he goes what happened to the book? She goes I'm reading it. So and then fast forward a little bit. When they had something coming up financially, she said to before you do anything else, give JJ a call. So literally that generated because I got a book in his hand and then the wife's hand ultimately, and to have a game opportunity to help for their family.
Stuart Bell
\nThis idea you were talking about Robert Chavini before, and the whole idea of influence and persuasion In the nicest possible sense. The book is telling people what you want them to hear and what makes them an ideal client for you, meaning that you can have them to death. The fact that it's delivered in a package which has an outsized amount of credibility for technically what is, and glued together pieces of paper from Amazon. It needs that message so that now when you're saying something to people, you're not saying it for the first time and it's almost like you're repeating what the author of the book said, although obviously it's the same person. So this idea that it needs it goes ahead of you and starts the message and gets people aligned to the thinking and then, if they're aligned enough to knock on the door or jump on Zoom, you're already 10 steps down the process.
The other thing that sprained the mind as you were talking this idea of the mind map. In the scorecard book that I've got for the book blueprint scorecard, one of the ideas there is a purposeful outline and I'm a big mind mapper as opposed to like nesting or drawing things out. So the visual representation, both the clarity in the situation as it develops and the avoidance of doubt and the unique way that you're packaging it. I mean, I've done lots of these calls and we've helped a thousand people and a lot of them are financial advisors. It's the first time I've ever described someone doing the KYC and again to know people type thing and then mind mapping out so as a unique tool to help the whole process, talking about that, potentially having it mentioned in the book or, if not in the book, mentioning it when you first come in and then reinforcing it all the way through the process. It's just a way of building on itself in a way that amplifies the instructions or that further.
\n\nJohn Checki
\nwe learned over a period of time through John Bowen's work with group called CEG worldwide in terms of identifying the various types of people who accumulate wealth and which one of those you were that would be in my case and in JJ's case and which ones you really did not want to be anywhere around. And that was really handy. And on that mind map you can also, on the top of that, put down who this person actually is, which is very handy. And let them know that if we're trying to build a legacy, we're rowing the boat in the same direction and we understand that everybody who has at least three kids usually has that one kid. That changes your whole facial expression when you mention that kid's name, not in JJ's. He has three amazing children who are just well, well, well schooled and they're very polite. Even if they weren't my grandchildren, they're lovely people to have over because they're pleased and thank you folks, and they're absolutely amazing and of course they're above average like everybody's grandchildren, but that's another story.
But in terms of families, almost everybody has a reason why attorneys invented a spend thrift trust or a special needs trust and what we do to kind of underscore what check your financial dose is. We find people who think, whatever problem you have, one specific problem was the most interesting question they ever heard in their life and they researched the BG's out of that and they usually the top gun, whether it's Dean Jackson who comes up with more marketing ideas and one throwaway conversation that anybody ever talked about in your entire life and they just kind of have everybody in a state of awe because everybody who knows anything has heard of that person and wishes they had lunch with that person just one time and got to actually talk with them. And at least one of us has been lucky enough to pick the brains of some of the smartest people and their dues to pay to get to go ahead and talk to those people. You don't just hop in one day hey.
\n\nTony, you got a minute that's not coming up, so when as you're paying your dues, and JJ is absolutely amazing at being in groups and making speeches and being on panels and he also publicizes the people that he sees on a regular basis, and JJ, why don't you highlight that? Yeah?
\n\nJJ Checki
\nit's something fun that I started doing earlier this year. I'd pop as a great example of sharing videos about everyday life. So I started doing that a little over a year ago, but more recently I started highlighting the people. I'm saying I'm at a networking event and highlighting some of the people who are there. So maybe it's a lady who's launching her company called Kid Cakes that her and her children literally brought about and took a video with her, shared it. So it's just us two talking say hey, who am I with today? And getting her share her story and then putting it out there.
Or it's the local coffee shop to chai for that we frequently go to. So just, you know, to highlight other people. Back to the give and the influence is helping other people get in front of the audience that they want to get in front of and we're going to get taken care of. People are going to come and see us in one way or another. So it's just great getting to highlight others and, in the process, build up community and when it's the right time for someone to talk to us, then they know where to find us.
\n\nJohn Checki
\nWhich is how we actually pondered on in this podcast. Well, stuart was interviewing another fellow that I know from another group that lives in, of all places, england, so you two understood each other. I understand either one of you. He was talking about how we could do something and it turns out it's been my experience, having worked with people who worked on the atomic bomb and the New York rocket and other things like that Not Greg and just happened to be lucky to get in a battery charge. And a guy who worked at a lab said hey, John, what are you?
doing? Why don't you come to the lab they're hiring? It was 1967. An interesting time. But periodically you'll just run across people who really are amazing and if you highlight them they might remember you. I'll tell you the last joke on that. Perhaps and here it is If we do a bad job, or if you do a bad job, people will stop strangers on the street corner to talk about you. But if you do a great job somebody who asks you again and again do you know anybody who does that? You might actually mention that person's name.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah, it's interesting the dynamics of the different way around. We talk about orchestrated referrals in a way of not having passive referrals hoping that someone will mention it, but giving them the opportunity to remember to mention it at the right time. Because most people's experience of a referral is they'll be talking to the referee, their friends and they'll friend will say oh, you know what? I was just talking to, Mary, last week, and I wish I remembered that you did what you did Not, because with all the will in the world you would like to have made that recommendation, that referral, but people never think, whereas the passion and the vitriol and the bad blood that comes along with the bad experience Years ago a couple of financial advisors from New York and they were from upstate New York, not the city, and people upstate New York, just like normal people with the people in New York, are even more chatty than I am in terms of a harsh sort of way, and they'll take that as a compliment.
John Checki
\nBut the guys from New York said we don't ask for referrals. We say if you give us a referral we'll never call them. So if you have somebody that wants to work with us, have them call us, because I'm not not asking you for names, not asking you for a list, I'm not telling. I get paid in three ways, not doing any of that silliness. So if you run across somebody that mentioned this stuff and you think we could be a good fit for them, have them, give us a call. And here's the reasoning If someone reaches out and picks up that 400 pound instrument known as a telephone and calls a stranger about one of the most sensitive topics on earth, they're really interested in talking to us. But if a complete stranger calls and says Mary Lou talked about me the other day or you the other day, and she said you have a problem with your finances, wouldn't you like to talk to us. That's not going to work out very well.
Stuart Bell
\nThat idea of making sure that it's a human to human contact in the way that it is as effective as possible for people. It doesn't take much to think about it, but it's some of the many people don't think about it because they're doing day-to-day business. So I really love what you guys are doing across the board, both in reaching out with the book as a tool to start those conversations in a friendly way. What JJ is doing with the video is highlighting other people in the local area, not only to give you the opportunity to kind of be an influence maker or conversation maker, but if nothing else, it's just fun and entertaining. I mean, life goes fast and if it's a drag every day then it's a much longer journey than if it's fun.
John Checki
\nAnd for those of you wondering why there's so many jokes or what have you, it's funny within where I talk. When I first started financial planning, they said to not be funny when you give a speech. And despite trying my very best to not be funny while giving a speech on financial planning, people would laugh and I'd look at them and say that is not funny. And they'd say that is absolutely funny. So then a friend of mine said you should go to stand-up comedy school to learn how not to step on the laughs.
So there's nothing frightening than anybody talking to you about your most sensitive topic after health, and that is about your money, because everybody fears losing everything, living under a bridge and regretting that decision that you made that cost you your family, your future and your home.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nAnd I think it makes it much more accessible. In having those conversations where it's all doom and gloom and making people feel bad about their decisions or putting all the risk back on them so that they're not enthusiastic about making a choice Very different experience from bringing people along with the journey in a positive way, and I think that's what really comes across both in the book and, obviously, in talking with people.
John Checki
\nWe also have some people that, despite being very good at not spending as much money as they make, even just talking about social security and some penting stuff, and they came up with the expression. One of the clients has been a client since 1992 and he's referred to me by his big brother, who was the chief economist of IDS American Express at the time, not making that up, and he said I want belt and suspenders on my investments I call them once a quarter to go over it and have for the last several years just assuring them honest to God, everything is just fine and there are ways to do that. And JJ, you've had it reached in case on that very subject where a guy got impatient with the fact that he was the only guy in a bear market that was losing money.
JJ Checki
\nYeah, there's different product that will right fit for the people, which is the importance of get to know your client. So if, whether it's a client who invests in real estate and that's his business as well, well, there's certain things that can benefit him more, maybe covering his liabilities I'll just leave it at that. Or there's other investments that people are more interested in, the potential to gain what would have some protection as well. So there's definitely just finding what that pain point is. If someone doesn't care about some of those features, well, you go in a different direction. But if there's something that fits, it's finding someone tells me what they want and then finding what fits best for that situation.
So by no means I like to do this one, by no means is hey, here's a container, who wants it? No, it's. Who are you? What do you want? What do you want to accomplish? Now let me, if I don't already know the answer right away, let me go and research that with other experts who are passionate about what they do and bring the right solution to you and let's talk. So it's a very least. That to us is that is the backward, that's the way it should be done and is done.
\n\nJohn Checki
\nWe do have two requirements of clients. So that is number one you need to have a sense of humor. And number two and this is absolutely more essential even than number one you have to be coachable. If all you want to do is what you've already done, there's really no need for us to infringe on the amazing work you're already doing without having to share our own, without having to share our own stories.
JJ Checki
\nI'm sure that people that can may come to mind in your own world of someone that you could help greatly but isn't interested in your advice. So there's no reason beat your head against the wall to see if in fact, it eventually you break the wall versus your head. So finding people who actually are coachable and willing to not just willing, but ready to take advice and take action.
John Checki
\nSo so don't waste any time going to a donut shop and giving a talk on physical fitness.
Stuart Bell
\nAnd that, in a way, is another reason why books are effective in the funnel, because, even with the expectation that people aren't reading it cover to cover, but there's an expectation that they're receiving it, they're aware of what it is and at the very least, look at the table of contents to get a feel that they're in the right place. And anyone who's positively reading back the chapter titles to you or referencing things that you've written, that is evidence that they are coachable, because the people who don't want to know are probably not even going to go as far as saying, yes, I'm a reader and take the copy of the book that you're offering.
JJ Checki
\nI think I said that earlier I don't remember if it was pre-podcast or in the podcast is, even when I'm talking with someone and I ask if they're, if they like to read, they're a reader. Say yes or no and then say if you'd like a copy, here's a copy of the book and if they hesitate I'll go. I don't need to add to the stack on your shelf, it doesn't bother me at all and actually saves me money by not sending you the book. So no worries at all and just move on to the next. Move on with whatever we're talking about. So it's fun.
John Checki
\nYeah, the process of 90-minute books is painless. They really coach you through it. They've been doing it now for enough years where they know what they are doing and their staff does too. There's a good fit. They kind of help you through it. And what we did to finally finish up with the book is they supplied us with some artwork in terms of what the cover could look like. And I learned a long time ago it's a much better idea to show the people who already like you and have done business with you and are still doing business with you say, hey, which one of these covers most describes us and resonates with you? And we did that, took a survey because it's always easier to find out. But people, not you, not your son, not your wife, not your grumpy whatever, we don't have any of those Like, but you're satisfied, happy, advocating for you, clients like and what a great way of involving people in the process.
Stuart Bell
\nKnowing that book is about to be created, they've got an engaged view of what, what's happened, they feel a part of it, a part of the family. So to then be able to go back once it's created and say, hey, thanks for your imports, it's finished now. If you know anyone who would benefit from that, just let us know and we'll get a copy. The great way of including people, which, again, is like he likes to bake.
John Checki
\nI've encouraged him and he's picked it up in terms of actually passing out various treats that he and his amazing, gifted and talented family actually make. The JJ and his family are skilled bakers for sure, and I've encouraged them to go ahead and do that. All I do with people is give them sermenettes and occasionally have to go over for some wonderful red sauce in the Southern Italian tradition.
Stuart Bell
\nI don't usually feel any resentment of working virtually and being either in Florida or Pennsylvania, but now I kind of wish I was a little bit closer to you guys. I must need lunch, because that sounds good.
JJ Checki
\nOh, we came across, so I have to share this, since you just prepped or kind of introduced. It is. We have some delicious cookies on our stove, on our kitchen counter right now. It's a combination of s'mores, traditional graham cracker, marshmallow chocolate and chocolate chip cookies. I can't stand the recipe where you actually combine both and bake it and they're as good as it sounds.
John Checki
\nThey're delicious and also JJ is helping one of his client friends with their business and that were actually our treats and has passed those out to people and sent those to people that are now in the office, because an awful lot of people like to meet virtually as opposed to in person. My widows and widowers much prefer meeting in person because they've already been stung and they have a sense of needing to have physical contact. So we are lucky enough here in the Dallas Fort Worth area to still have offices that still let people in. You don't have to worry about asking, unless you just want to have one.
Stuart Bell
\nAnd, like I say, along with everything that, the circle that you were talking about in terms of getting to know the clients and what's the right fit for them, being able to offer virtual and in person, it's just being adaptive to the times and what the individual person needs, rather than a one size fits all. I always say that time goes fast. In the podcast piece I kind of say, well, talk for half an hour and then we'll get to that point and see where we are. Even it's in already. It'd be great to get back with you guys at some point in the future and do a follow up. In the meantime, what's a good place that people can go to learn more about the organization, either just to see what you're doing or if they're in the room?
John Checki
\nI have displayed our website, which is not very hard to realize. It's checkiefinancialcom and JJ. Why don't you describe or display your phone number also, just for me.
JJ Checki
\nWell, yeah, for me, I would say that the LinkedIn is definitely a good place to go. So my name. So if I could figure out how to change my name on the screen.
Stuart Bell
\nBut to LinkedIn yeah, if you look up there, yeah, so JJ check it, a third on me.
JJ Checki
\nSo junior is actually my pop, so that throws people off. But yeah, so it's, that's fun stuff.
Stuart Bell
\nWell, I make sure that I put the links directly to both of them in the show notes. So thank you Listening both on podcast players, all on the website. They can just click straight through and we both do lots of videos.
John Checki
\nMy videos are more centered around the doves that live in our atrium, the various herbs and they're all legal herbs that I put in pasta sauce not the kind of herb that you just thought of in terms of those of you that are into psych and my darling wife, who's in show business and sings with the new kings of swing and teaches yoga and spin movies and recorded and was a contemporary of Madonna but decided not to live in a castle in her old age, says why do you keep doing videos? Who on earth is interested in that? One of our clients not even one of my happier clients, with client that likes JJ a lot more than he likes me because I asked him too many personal questions, said I really enjoy those videos.
We encourage people to do videos, and JJ does them highlighting other people's businesses, which is a very generous thing that you do, jj, so congratulations on doing that.
\n\nJJ Checki
\nThank you. I like doing a mixture of personal whether it's the rock climbing gym, a fun outing for the family, our kitchen baking s'mores, or more on the professional side, of a lesson learned in a particular setting or and highlighting others. So I'm having a lot of fun with it Once again, originally highlighted from my pop taking videos all the time. Then I finally realized well, this is a good way to get in front of people, so I'm doing that more now.
Stuart Bell
\nWell, I'll tell you what. If you want to view, can see me the links to both of those channels. I'll make sure I include those in the notes as well, because I think this idea that business is so it's easy to get stuck in the weeds on the day to day stuff, but if you can find a way to make some expression outside of connections with real people, it just puts much more of a human touch on things.
John Checki
\nAnd we do have the very last, very last point. Years ago I was shooting some videos and when you do videos in your financial advisors, tough to get those through compliance. So I submitted the scripts and what have you? And JJ and I you can see we have good rapport with each other because we've known each other all his life and the videographer said, oh, I'd love to shoot a video of YouTube.
And I said you know, you have no idea the trouble I went through to get that one. But so I said, just to shut you up, we did that. So I just pointed to JJ and said JJ, what have you learned over the last couple of years? And you can see a very proud father when it's on the YouTube and it's John Checke TV channel on YouTube where JJ reshotted exactly what we do, how we did it. And you can see a very proud father realizing that his son has actually listened to us and learned what we actually do and can actually say it all by himself, with no prompting other than just being asked a question. So that's a vintage JJ way back when he knows even more now than he did back then.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nBut the connection that you guys have got is fantastic. My family is still back in the UK, fortunately, my brother's in the US and we work quite closely together. So I appreciate that family connection and it comes to it. I can only imagine the sense of the clients have got when they're getting both sides and both characters and both approaches. It really is much more. It's a synergistic result. The thumb is far greater than the two big individual parts. Thanks for your time. This really has gone fast. I know I think I say every episode. It really has gone fast. It'd be great to check in at some point in the future. In the meantime, as I say, I'll put all of the links directly to you guys and the company in the show notes so people can find. But again, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure, and everyone for listening. I'm sure you've got lots. Check out John and JJ and we'll catch you in the next one.
John Checki
\nHave fun and stay well. Thank you, have fun. Thanks, Stuart.
Originally known as a trusted legal partner, John shares how his early relationships led to the initial, unexpected success in the financial services world, and as his approach resonated with clients, referrals started flooding in. This approach eventually led to his book aimed at helping successful business owners transition their businesses.
\n\nJohn's experience with his business and how his book has become invaluable in following up with high-value leads is fascinating, and again, there is a lot to take away from this conversation.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/143
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nJohn Iannucci
\nVery well, Stuart. How are you doing today?
Stuart Bell
\nReally good. Thank you. I'm actually just back from a vacation, so it should be a Nice, a relaxed point. Let's start by sharing. This is going to be a slightly different one, in the sense that I usually talk to people who I've maybe interacted with from the book process, but I don't necessarily know personally. As such we've met before we know each other a little bit more, and in trying to bring too much assumed knowledge to the call and bring all the listeners along for the journey, so why don't we start with a bit of background about what you and the firm do, and then we'll jump off from now?
John Iannucci
\nSure so, Stuart. I've been a practicing tax attorney, a state planning and business accession planning lawyer, for the last 37 years, but about 18 years ago my career really took a big left turn. I was practicing law and I was doing state planning and business accession planning for very successful families around the United States. I was working, primarily licensed, in Pennsylvania and Florida, and I had a client come to me to review a particular life insurance strategy as part of his overall state plan. And when I reviewed that plan, I didn't particularly like it. I didn't like the way it was designed. I was creating a trust to hold a life insurance policy, but this policy had some special features that I wanted to dig into and get to know a bit and ultimately, over a period of months, I revised the way that strategy was structured and my client closed on that life insurance policy and right after that, the insurance company that issued the policy reached out to me and asked if I had any interest in receiving referrals and, as every lawyer would love to have, I thought, sure, I'm licensed in Pennsylvania and Florida, I'd love to receive referrals, and they explained to me that they weren't so interested in me acting as a lawyer, as they were interested in me getting involved in financial services, initially in life insurance, and so I thought about it and after about 30 days I got my life insurance license and floodgates opened up.
I was getting referrals from life insurance companies, brokerages, life insurance agents who had stumbled upon a very significant case that they were having difficulty with, and so I was getting all these different strategies life insurance strategies referred to me to review, structure and help present typically to a client's sophisticated team of advisors. During that process, as I got to know those clients and I was doing this literally nationwide I would have clients invariably ask me if I would be interested in managing their investments as well. They got to know me, they got to understand my philosophy about investments and the financial services and the state planning, business accession planning, and I didn't know if I could do that or not. I wasn't interested in having a relationship with a broker dealer and being kind of controlled and constrained in which financial products I could recommend. And then, through a friend, I learned that I could create an independent registered investment advisory firm, which is what I did. I created ILG Private Wealth and again the floodgates opened up. I had so many clients and referrals from clients and other relationships that I had established over the years, that we started doing comprehensive, integrated financial planning for our clients.
\n\nAnd we quickly realized, Stuart, that in our opinion, the financial services industry was broken, that there was a lot of intentional confusion, we thought, being created by various banks and broker dealers who were trying to describe who was a fiduciary and who was not and what that meant. And, as you know, the industry got so wild that the Department of Labor suddenly decided it had to interject itself into that whole process to describe what we had to do as financial advisors, that what was considered to be in the best interest of clients, which was just astounding to me. At that time. I thought every financial advisor, just like every lawyer, should be operating under the fiduciary standard and doing exactly what was in the best interest of the client. So I didn't realize that there was all this argument and dissension and argument going on about who is and who isn't a fiduciary. But we realized that into the business was sadly broken and as a result of that, we formed a multifamily office that literally helps our clients with everything that touches their financial lives.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nNow, let's say, interesting pivot from a almost coincidentally stumbling into a whole successful separate stream, as opposed to many people who are kind of intentionally trying to go into or dominate market Successfully had in the early days. How much of it was a combination of timing, of what you were doing was something different of the legacy of the relationships that you brought to it, versus kind of your approach not coming to it from the financial services with all the baggage that comes with it but almost going over the complete footage. Sherry, you think of it?
John Iannucci
\nThat's a great question. I would say that you know, a very significant percentage of my early success was a result of the trust that I had earned and the relationships I developed over practicing law in Pennsylvania and Florida. So I had a number of clients and associates and friends who trusted me and knew they could trust me with their clients and with their friends and family. And so in the early days a very substantial portion of my success was the result of kind of that legacy of our standards, our fiduciary standard and dealing with clients. And then I think what happened was clients actually realized that we had a new paradigm when it came to overall management of investments. We integrated this thought process of asset protection planning being the core of everything we do. You know, we emphasize the fact that, first and foremost, with all of our successful families, we want to make certain that their assets are protected. We don't want them to lose what they worked so hard to earn over those years. And then obviously part of asset protection planning is to protect their assets against inflation and higher interest rates and those things. So we have to manage their investments in a way to outpace inflation and outpace interest rate hikes and so on, so that they don't lose money just by hoarding cash under their bed. Right, you have to be a good steward to those investments and manage them in a way to grow and continue to grow.
But, as a tax attorney, the other layer that we were able to put on was the importance of an active annual tax management strategy or program.
\n\nWhen you look at the statements of many broker dealers, for instance, you'll notice on the back of the statement it comes right out and says we do not provide you with tax advice. Well, oddly enough, finra, the organization that's tasked with governing broker dealers and the securities industry, says the biggest risk to retirement today is not market volatility, it's taxed. And so the largest wealth managers in the world can't provide their clients with any tax advice. It's on their statements. They tell you in writing that they can't do that. But as a tax attorney and an independent registered investment advisory firm, we provide tax advice to our clients as an integral portion of what we do for them on an annual basis. And so, as people realized that we were doing that in such a comprehensive fashion, we started to get referrals from clients who were happy with what we were doing, as well as other advisors who realized we were really creating a true multifamily office in that new paradigm of overall asset protection planning as the core of their wealth and estate plan.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nIt's interesting thinking about always kind of comes to these shows, thinking about how to A share kind of your story with people but B how to give people something that they can use and take away, being more comprehensive and not just shutting the things that traditional advisors don't deal with under the kind of the jail of jail free card of well, I'd love to, but the boss says that I can't type thing. We've spoken a little bit in the past about this idea of working and collecting together with other organizations On this successor. You guys have had been able to deliver that in-house. I have actually used to suggest that other people who don't have that skill look externally and try and bring it in under like a holistic banner of working partnership, rather than just sending it away, trying to bring for the issues Right.
John Iannucci
\nThe difficult part there, Stuart, is the fact that typically advisors whether they be a CPA or a lawyer, an estate planning lawyer, a wealth manager typically what happens is they get so entrenched in their very narrow silo of what it is they do that there's very little interaction between those trusted advisors and so, as a result, everybody's kind of working in their individual lane without understanding and anticipating how what they do impacts everybody else. We regularly describe to our clients the fact that when you go to a physician and you get a medication, the first thing they should be asking you is what other medication are you taking? There's no perfect medication, there's no perfect answer, and every medication has a tendency to interact and have side effects caused by that interaction between two drugs. It's the same thing when it comes to having kind of disparate, broken, segmented advisors that are working within their lanes and not understanding how their individual services interact with one another. So oftentimes when we work with a new client, they already have an established CPA firm. That's wonderful, they have a great legal team, but they don't have a confidant that's sitting next to them helping manage that team to all pull in the same direction and not interpreting, if you understand what that team is doing.
I have very successful clients come to us with a stack of documents that says this is my state plan or my business succession plan. I don't have the faintest idea what it says. Can you help me understand what it is those documents do and what I can expect if I pass or my wife passes or if I sell my business? So they don't have that confidant to sit next to and kind of manage the team and interpret what that team is doing? And thank God thank God because my years have experienced, I've been blessed with the opportunity to interact with those people on a regular basis. So quite regularly I become that confidant, that trusted person that really manages the rest of the team and interprets what's going on to make sure that you know the boss is always in charge and understands what's happening and they're all pulling in the direction he or she has set.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nIt's the medical analysis, an interesting one because it's almost the same. In that scenario you almost need that confidant to be able to take in, or the medical advice again, because even in a scenario where you think he was much more holistically or joined together looking at the patient outcome, you see those siloed go to the specialist, wait for those people while they're dancing. So it's an analogy I think that will resonate with a lot of people.
John Iannucci
\nRight, you know, Stuart, it's funny that you bring that up because hospitals have actually created a position for a physician that manages the work of all the individual specialists, and I think some hospitals call them physiatrists, and really that's how we describe our practice. You know, we do what we do very well, but we understand that for our clients, we also have to manage what everybody else on his team or her team are doing, to make sure, again, that it's integrated and all working in a coordinated fashion.
Stuart Bell
\nYeah, do you ever run into an issue where, ideally, if you could take over, take control of someone's situation and say leave it with me, just do exactly what I say for five years and we'll be in a good position down the road? But then it runs up against some of the resistance of what people bring to it. How much of a challenge is it, even quite a unique position in having such a broad sphere of influence. So how much of a challenge is it bringing people along with our journey and saying, no, we've got this and here's some guidance to follow through, versus the pushback of I'm used to this traditional model and I've got someone over here doing that.
John Iannucci
\nRight, you know, Stuart, it's really kind of a gradual process as they get to know us. When clients come to us and they say to me, I have somebody yet and they name a big broker dealer and I say, well, that's great, I mean, they're a wonderful broker dealer. What can I help you with? And they come to me because they feel like something's missing, something that they expect to get from a financial advisor or a state planning lawyer or a business succession team. Something they're expecting to get is missing. They know it's missing, but they can't really identify what it is. So they almost have this fear of missing out. Is there some secret that I don't know about that I should be incorporating in my planning process, right? And so they come to me with it with those kinds of questions, but a fair amount of skepticism, because most of those families are very successful and so they have alpha personalities. You can't tell them what to do.
It's really a process of educating them on the pluses and minuses of various strategies and helping them come to a conclusion about which strategy is right for them and their family, and then also convincing them of the importance of integrating their family into that process at some point as well, because all the best intentions of the world sometimes go completely sideways when a matriarch or patriarch passes, dies, and they never had a conversation with their family members about why they're doing what they're doing, and so we try to help them understand that we're going to educate them as part of the process.
\n\nWe're certainly going to give them advice, because that's what they pay us for, but we make certain never to be in a position of kind of demanding they do certain things or strong arming them into doing certain things, because typically with those personalities they run away. They want to be in charge, they want to make their own decisions, and so ours is one of really kind of gently guiding them down the path they choose, after we've had the opportunity to really educate them on all the different options that they have.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThat journey of kind of no-liking trust coming back and getting. A lot of the business, as you said, either comes from referrals from other people or referrals from existing clients, particularly now. Right, this was so long, so I think the door with a friendly recommendation makes that general a little bit smoother. But because the breadth of the region is so wide, I guess it is easy to take one step at a time and gradually bring people free. As always, going into a podcast like this, there's some questions in my mind and kind of leading the conversation back towards the book conversation. So this idea of educating and bringing people to a new way of thinking and helping them understand rather than just strong arming them into a set of things that they have to do, kind of changing the ties nicely to the book and the idea of why create that and what went into it. So share a little bit about the book, I guess what your early thoughts were. Go through kind of chronologically what the early thoughts were around creating it.
John Iannucci
\nWell, in my experience in private practice as a lawyer, what I realized, when I unfortunately had the experience to observe, was the number of very successful, closely held family businesses that, candidly, were destroyed by bad decisions about the transition, ultimately, of the business. And so I realized that it was vitally important, I felt, for successful business owners to understand at some level all the different options they have when it comes to transitioning their business. But I also wanted them to understand that, whether they cooperate in that transition or not, it's going to happen someday.
And so I thought it was very important for them to understand that you're better off steering that ship than being dragged behind it, even if you put your head in the sand and pretend it's not going to happen, there are several ways in which that transition will happen without your cooperation, death and disability being two of the big ones. You're suddenly disabled and can't run the company anymore, and suddenly that team isn't prepared, your team isn't prepared. So I really wanted to explain. Given the fact that there are literally tens of trillions of dollars in family-owned businesses transitioning over the next five to ten years, I thought it was critically important for them to understand hey look, I have options and I should be putting together a plan. Even if I don't want to transition my ownership of the business now or even in the foreseeable future. It's critically important to operate the business in a fashion that maximizes the value of that business in the marketplace. Right, because it's some point. Your business will either go to an executive team or family members or, ultimately, the market, and regardless of which direction it goes, operating your business in that paradigm to maximize the value to a third party is the best way to operate your business going forward, and there are very specific things that the market looks for to increase the value of your business, and so I wanted to highlight those I will tell you.
\n\nThere was one other really important fact I wanted to talk to people about in this book and give them a you know, a quick 50,000 foot view. So many clients who have children, where one is in the business and two are outside the business, think that to make their estate plan fair between their children, they have to divide their business up equally between those or among those children. And when you have that dynamic, when you set up that dynamic as a part of your estate plan, you're creating an habit. You'll have one child running the business, making compensation out of the business, and you might have two children who are on the outside as passive shareholders, looking for dividend distributions, looking for their interest to be liquidated or bought out by their sibling.
\n\nYou're creating a very bad dynamic between your children when you pass. And so I went to some limit to talk to people in the book, and I do in person, about the fact that fair isn't always equal. Giving one child a business that's worth 20 million dollars isn't necessarily worth 20 million dollars if that child can't turn around immediately and sell it for 20 million dollars. They have to work in that business, and so I like to develop strategies that minimize the opportunity for that acrimony between children when you pass with a successful business. In my view, that's the number one killer of businesses in the second and third generation for successful business owners when they try to distribute it equally among their children and some of those children aren't in the business.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThat as a conversation starts. I mean, one of the taglines that we use all the time is the book's not the product, the conversation is the product, the reason that we're trying to do it, but that as a conversation starts, based on the wealth of experience you've got. I imagine that for the majority of people that's not their expectation. They're thinking of the equal is fair paradigm and just helping structure it. So it's as simple as possible. That conversation is quite an eye-opener for people as you start getting deeper and deeper into it and almost the way of resolving the problem. It's easy to think about oh, cut something into thirds. It's like the parable of cutting a baby in half and so on. It's like that because it's such an easy way of thinking that I have to distribute things evenly.
The solution not to do that almost seems more complicated in the short term but then obviously more beneficial in the long term. It was interesting. It was a point that I'd never particularly thought about. One of the things that you mentioned that has come up before, though, with other clients that we've worked with, is this idea of transferring problems coming up at the point that the succession plan is implemented, so the person passes away. The next generation are potentially fighting over the remains, and because the desires have been communicated very well, the problem then hits at that point. We've worked with some management firms in the past to write books where the client will write the book as a story of their life.
\n\nJohn Iannucci
\nAbsolutely.
Stuart Bell
\nAlmost using it for the purpose of starting the conversation with the kids. Hey, we've been doing this work. Here's the story of the background. You want to know all these details. And using it at the point because people find it difficult just having those conversations in a friendly family environment, let alone where there's some inconvenience there already.
John Iannucci
\nYou're spot on there, Stuart. I think that's a fabulous idea as an icebreaker, as a way to begin that conversation, because when you first suggest to a client who's successful that they start having what we call family governance meetings to have this conversation about why you're doing what you're doing and what you're thinking about, and kind of preparing people for that day, there's a lot of resistance to that. It's amazing how many spouses and children have no idea what the patriarch or matriarchs are estate plan is or even why they're dividing up their estate the way they are. And you know, once I'm able to convince them gradually, slowly, that we should be having these conversations and explaining and getting input from the family and how much that will work to save that family after that patriarch or matriarch's passing, we finally get them to that point. But I think, like you said, writing a book like that to begin that conversation about their life, their business, what they're thinking wow, what a great starter. Yeah.
Stuart Bell
\nIt's the idea of the book being the conversation starts and not the product. It opens up so many doors. I think so many business owners are thinking about the book in a traditional sense of writing and it will help me become famous and then people will come knocking on my door. I mean the last probably pretty slim. It's difficult enough for best-selling authors to let loan professional business owners that have got the project into the gas.
But the idea of using that as a jumping off point when you were thinking about creating the book, your book that we're talking about, the piece of mind, retirements mind, retirement planner yes, I'm still in a whole day mode, my tongue isn't working quite as my head. So when you're thinking about writing that, there's two schools of thought when we're working with people, one is using it as a lead generation tool, so very much at the top of the funnel and introducing new people. And then the second one is as more of a conversion tool, and that conversion tool might be for warm introduction, so referral. So it's still a degree, but it's when that first no one knows me to someone who's aware of me either side of that fence. So do you see it more on one side of the fence or another more, introducing very cold people and using it in a lead generation sense? Or is a lead conversion tool? Someone's already knocked on the door and this is part of their education towards your way of thinking.
\n\nJohn Iannucci
\nWell, you know it's interesting. My experience is that with this book, what I was intending originally was I thought this would be kind of a cool piece that I could hand out, and you know, it would almost be like another business card to explain what I do and what I think and so on, to introduce people to my process and my thought process. But what's happened is that as I meet people in networking kind of or social circumstances and I see that they've got a very successful family business, I use it as a follow up where I say, hey, look, I've got something I think you might be interested in. I'd love to send you a little book that I wrote about, you know, succession planning for the successful business owner. Can I drop it in the mail for you? And it's amazing that favorable response I get. And if I add a little note inside with my cell phone number on it, it's incredible how many times I get a phone call from that person or from somebody that person spoke to saying, hey, I'd like to follow up, I'd like to learn a little bit more about what you described in your book.
And so it's been an excellent way to follow up with people I meet. It's not aggressive or offensive to them. It's actually educational. They appreciate it. They actually dropped me a note saying, wow, this is a great little read. It opened my eyes to the different options that I have available. I didn't realize I had so many options. So to me it's that great follow up after an initial interaction with somebody that I'd really like to get to know and see if we're appropriate for each other, see if it makes sense for us to consider working together, and that's how I use it. I don't think I intended to use it in that fashion before, but I can tell you that's worked out extremely well for me now as a follow up after that initial engagement.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThe businesses where, like you and I well, we're actually meeting people you more than me, in fact. We're meeting people and having that human interaction. The disarming element of giving something first, that kind of leading of the content. All marketing could be good or evil depending on your intention, so it's a similar role on the good side, but to be able to give something that's disarming.
I'm such a huge fan of writing a personal note and folding a page over and not only giving something to begin with, but you've put the intentionality and the thought and the personal connection to make it individual for them. It's no one who else does that. Everyone else out there is thinking in terms of adds huge volume in. If people don't convert within a day, then they were deadly, move on to the next. But hold brain and jealousy which, for if you're selling widgets on Amazon, then that might be a valid strategy.
\n\nBut for us, where we're dealing with individual people, there's lifetime value, there's relationships. It really serves to bridge the gap and start to make a connection With the content. Sometimes people have a almost a scarcity mentality of I don't want to put too much in there because it will give the game away, which obviously is the opposite of the truth. So not so much when we're giving too much away, but in terms of the breadth of what to include, because obviously, with what you're doing and the varying individuals, I imagine that you could have been still writing at 500 pages and still have enough information in that. So what was the thought process around? Okay, what makes sense to include and what makes sense to it.
\n\nJohn Iannucci
\nYeah, see, for us, I think, as we were going through that process to determine how expansive we were in this book, what we really wanted to get across to our potential prospects and friends and potential clients, we wanted to make sure that we touched certain pain points that we knew they had. We knew they had certain things because of our experience that would wake them up at 2 am and cause them to have that racing you know the racing thoughts and what we wanted to do was make certain they understood from the book that first we understood what they were going through. We understood those problems and we understand them in great detail, that we've addressed those issues before to our client's satisfaction and that you know there is help. And so we wanted to provide them with enough education to help them understand that there is somebody out there that understands my issues, that has addressed my issues successfully in the past and that I could speak to right, that is willing to help me and talk to me about. Okay, we understand this is how we would see you addressing those issues, so that you have that kind of sleep through the night confidence, right. So we decided we wanted to give enough of the information away that they realized we knew what we were talking about and we knew their pain points and that we get address those pain points because ultimately, you know, writing a book at 500 pages for a client who's addressing these kinds of issues, they're not even going to finish the book because it would be so technical, right? You know they realize that they have to engage a team.
You know, I love the book that our buddy inspired. You know who, not how. You know, dean Jackson being the inspiration behind that book I always talk to my clients about. You know, when you're a successful businessman, it doesn't mean you can be successful in everything, businessperson in everything. You can't become a lawyer overnight. You can't become a tax secretary overnight. What you've got to become an expert at is determining who can help you, not how you can do it. This isn't a DIY project, right.
\n\nAnd so you know, I reference that book all the time because, to me, that was a real game changer for me, not only for how I present my business and what I do, but for how I think myself. Right, could I have sat down and tried to hire a publisher and do all these things to write this book? Sure, and do it myself? Sure. But what I learned in working with you and your team, working with Dean, was this is a who, not how. This is.
\n\nYou guys made this process so enjoyable and easy that I didn't mind dedicating the resources in the time to it, because it was almost an interview process with me, right, and it helped me get the information out there quickly better done than thinking about it next week, right, or next year, or I should have done it two years later. But you know your team was that who for me, or that's right, that who for me, and I try to explain to my clients as well when they're thinking about all these complicated strategies. It's not how do I address this, it's who, what team can address this for me in a manner that I can manage and be comfortable with right?
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThe speed of gain it done. I mean, for the scope of what we do is relatively straightforward. I mean, walk isn't implementing a wealth management plan, it's got a divine work. But even the speed of gain it done and the learnings that we've gone through over a thousand times now right, more clients even more so I mean there's just no way it's practical for people to do it themselves. All the other sets of struggling through and trying to find all the individual players right, the book that starts the conversation, that introduces the idea, that gives them the certainty that there is an answer. The next question is then just are you the right people to execute the conversation that moves on? The book is the conversion tool in the sense of no one's going to sign on the dotted line just based on your book or anyone's book. But it is that start in the conversation, that analogy of kind of the lost knowledge of doing it yourself. When I was in the UK I imported a little Japanese sports car from Japan and a friend had done it a few times before. So I thought that sounds like a good idea, I'll admit it, and it must have taken months of just reminding one of the things that have to pass a test like inspection in the country and one of the things that it failed on five different occasions. It fails for different times. One of them was because the fog light was two inches far that way. So knowledge, now I know I'm never in the UK anymore, so I'm not going to import another sports car, but all of that headache, it's not the I could move, I could put it in different places. It's not that I can't do it, like you said. It's not that you can't write the book itself, it's just the efficient piece of time and to be able to create something that starts the conversation and helps people make the phone ring in a way that they're not so much predisposed, but at least there's a jump in up point for the conversation. It's really powerful.
I think what I like particularly about the book that you wrote is this friendly, friendly but authoritative. I guess is mainly or friendly but knowledgeable, maybe more than authoritative. So you brought to it. It is a broad subject, it is a complicated subject. There's the underlying, without necessarily explicitly saying it. There's an understanding written into it that this is a broad and complicated and varying. It's a very personalized service for each person. But we've got this and, as you said, we understand it. So it's something that I like about the way that we do the processing terms of interviewing people and trying to keep their language and their cadence and tone of voice, because it does Again, the book isn't designed to be. The book isn't the product, it's not a story that's romantically perfect and it's going to win some awards for literature. It's people, to who you are and your approach and that personal element comes through. I was asked people do you get that feedback as a explicitly or kind of inferred from people? That is more of a personal connection than academic piece.
\n\nJohn Iannucci
\nAbsolutely. Yeah, I do get that feedback and I think that when you give something of value like a book as a part of the process of getting to know people, and that that book touches on subjects that are very personal to them, very troubling to them at times, I think what you find is that it establishes almost immediately a certain level of trust. This guy's like me, this person is like me, this person understands me, and there's a certain level of trust that you get. Now you've got to earn a lot more and you've got to demonstrate a lot more expertise, but it's that personal relationship and a book like this, I think, helps introduce that personal relationship and engender that personal relationship and, at the end of the day, it's all about personal relationships.
We tell clients that managing investments today is a commodity Managing your stocks and your bonds. If you have somebody who's a true fiduciary and is doing it at a fair fee, the results you're going to get over a 10-year period or plus or minus in, you know, in the irrelevant amount. What's really important is all these other ancillary services that are so important to you and your family in the growth and protection and transition of your wealth that you know that's kind of what we're getting across. That's the information we're getting across to people, and this relationship, my relationships with my clients are really based upon personal relationships and personal trust that we will lead no rock unturned to help them discover the answer to their issue Right, and this book helps us start that process.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nI think it's a whole other series of podcasts afterwards, but in 2023, as we recorded this middle of 2023, this was really the year that AI hit mainstream in terms of availability and kind of passing that threshold of usefulness to the average person.
But, business owners across the board, the next five years are going to be game changing, because so much of the, so much of the nuts and bolts of the work is going to be commoditized. What isn't going to be commoditized, though, is that relationship and the trust that you, as a business owner, can build with someone so many people think of. I just want to get AI to build a book for me, and council is completely thinking about it. There's going to be a thousand other people that do that, but if you can create a process that gets your personal connection across your methodology, then mirrors the language that you use and the terms in which you talk, and then, with AI, by all means to amplify and leverage it and distribute it much further than you could have done two years ago. But, yeah, I think in the next few years, just to identify the relationships are going to be so much more key, because so much more than nuts and bolts will be commoditized.
\n\nJohn Iannucci
\nThat's right. That's right. So much is being commoditized in every industry, including financial services. It's that relationship, ultimately, that will win the day. You know, I get amazed by the kinds of things my clients call me for, and what help. It has nothing to do with managing their investments. It's because I'm a confidant with respect to their business and their investments that I turn into a confidant and everything. And one of my clients likes to jokingly refer to me as Ray Dunovan. If you've seen that show on HBO, he was called the Fixer, and so my clients think of me as the Fixer. Whenever they have an issue, whether it's in relationship to their investments, their state plan or business succession plan, whatever it is, I get the first phone call.
Stuart Bell
\nSo I'm the Fixer, I'm the financial Fixer Kind of pixely out of your face. These podcasts always go fast. Before we start recording I usually say to people we'll go for 30 minutes and then see how it goes. And we're at four already. So I see for a appreciate the time. I know that everyone listening is going to get a lot out of this. I want to make sure that people have got access to you and find out more. So where's a good place for people to go to learn more about?
John Iannucci
\nit. So we're really lucky. We have a great URL. It's we can help you, spelled out wecanhelpyou.com. If they go to wecanhelpyoucom, it refers them right over to our website. They can get a copy, by the way, of our book Happily to send them an autographed copy, and we'd love to talk to them about anything that's keeping them up at night, but that's the easiest way to get us. We can help youcom.
Stuart Bell
\nFantastic. Well, we'll make sure we put links in the show notes so I'm sure people could remember anyway but podcast players there'll be a link in there or looking on the website the crossover of our clients, just the nature of what we do in our relationships. We've got a lot of people in the services space and they'll see business owners you send us directly. If they're thinking about wealth and succession plan, it's a no brainer to go and check out Other people who are in a similar space. Does it make sense for those guys if they've got clients that could be a good fit for you to reach out?
John Iannucci
\nAbsolutely. We partner with other professionals all the time and so, whether they happen to be in the financial services business or they're a lawyer or CPA or whatever, we partner with other sophisticated, trusted advisors all the time, so we're happy to speak to any of them about anything we do, and you know we're built to serve, so we're here to help any way we can and look forward to any questions.
Stuart Bell
\nFantastic. Well, thanks again. So much for your time, john. Always a pleasure speaking with you. I know we get a chance to talk about podcasts Everyone listening to. Highly recommend checking out the website. Like I said, we'll put a link in the show notes for you, and thanks for listening. We'll catch you in the next one.
John Iannucci
\nThanks so much, Stuart.
Today on the Book More Show, we are joined by Kevin Berwald, chartered financial planner, CMO of Catalyst4Growth, a sales team development organization, and author of Your Unicorn Client Acquisition Process.
\n\nKevin has a great story, from running a successful financial services company to helping other professionals through Catalyst4Growth. We talk about how his book is now adding more and more value in developing that business and how a book is a perfect partner to one of their most successful strategies, helping people create a compelling professional biography for referral success.
\n\nTogether, we delve into the psychology behind a book's authority, how this same authority translates into an authoritative biography, and how the right resources can make the writing process efficient and affordable.
\n\nThis is a great chat, and Kevin brings some executable insights from a very successful career.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/142
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nKevin Berwald
\nI'm doing fantastic. Thanks for asking.
Stuart Bell
\nThis is gonna be a good show. We just were quickly catching up before we hit record. We're gonna try and keep this to a minimum of four or maximum of four hours and see where we go from there. Why don't we start with a bit of background, so share with the listeners kind of your backstory, what you guys do across there, and then we can kind of transition into some book stuff.
Kevin Berwald
\nYeah, sure, i started in the financial really the financial services industry in 1988.
I really haven't been anywhere else, almost all in marketing and distribution.
\n\nIn 2021, i got the opportunity to retire and not have to work anymore, and as I sat back and was thinking about what I'd done over my lifetime and one of my early mentors I'll mention his name, he's Mark Shearer.
\n\nHe's no longer with us anymore, but Mark used to always say that what you learn and what someone gives you, you have the responsibility at some point to pass on, and a couple of my friends reminded me that there are some things that I should probably put in a book. I was talking to a friend of mine who referred me to you, actually, and he was saying and I was mentioning I need to put this information in a book, some of these points that have helped me and so many other people be really successful in life as best I can, so that I can pass what he called knowledge torches onto the future. So it was really bugging me to do this and I needed to find a venue to get there, and so that's what happened and that's how I got to you And that's the first book that I put together in row.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThat's such a, it's such an opportunity and not many people think about it. You kind of think about the capturing the legacy, capturing the knowledge. We're also busy in the day to day work. Was it the fact that you had retired from the day to day business that gave you the time and the freedom to think about this thought now? Or was it the kind of pressure from someone else saying you should do it? you should do it? Was it more of a capacity thing rather than an intention thing?
Kevin Berwald
\nI think it's a little bit of both. You know, the funny thing is when you decide not to go to work anymore on a daily basis is you've got to have something to fill that void. And I've been a certified financial planner since 1995, cfp And so I knew that I needed to plan and set things up for what might happen in the future. So I had done lots of cool stuff, like I bought a 35 acre property that I could hunt and farm and raise honey bees on, spent a lot of time with my church. I live on an island right now I'm looking out at the water. That's a beautiful day. There's geese and swans and everything that are out there, and my boats are out there so I can fish and boat.
But eventually, as I was not paying attention or thinking about work, i just had one. I had two people actually that said you know, you need to write this book And it just kind of came at me from and not that I hadn't wanted to. I had threatened over the years to write this book. In fact I'd written two more workbooks that were related to it but never turned it into something that could be, you know, publishing out there for anyone to eventually get a hold of. So it was kind of a little pressure but it snuck up on me There's that concept as well.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nIf people think about the benefit of books as I mean we primarily talk about them in terms of lead generation tools and business building tools The benefit is that a book has a lot of psychological elements that come along with it.
Like the whole Robert Cialdini persuasion type world of people come with perceived baggage of what a book is and the authority that it carries. That's a benefit for us as we're trying to use it, but it's also something that holds people back because they think you kind of switch into like the school mentality of oh, this is gonna be homework that's marked by someone else And there's all of this sitting in a cabin under candlelight and years of torturous work to do it, whereas the benefit these days is the actual creation of it is relatively straightforward. I mean, it's the process that we try and leverage to make it as accessible and cost effective as possible At any point. Was that something that was holding back as well, the kind of traditional idea that this is gonna be much more of an effort than it needs to be? Were you kind of held back from starting by that first step?
\n\nKevin Berwald
\nI might think about that in two ways. One is one of my things that I like to live by or think about, not necessarily a standard, but I think about the fact that processes are always stronger than the individual. And if you put yourself inside of a process, like working with 90 minute books, then you're gonna at least have a framework where, along the line I wouldn't say it holding you accountable, but at least behind you to support and say we need you know we're working on, this is where we're at, this is the next step. It's like the beauty of your emails that you send out once a month with the 12 or whatever word emails. I mean that's absolute genius. But at the same process it's creating a process not to use the same word twice, but I did kind of keep you involved and not put it on the back shelf and just forget about it.
But there is, to your point, there's no doubt about it that putting a book together, there is that risk. You're putting yourself out there and you're going to be critiqued in some way or another. So at the same time it's great to have professionals behind the scene that are really good at what they do, to prompt you and kind of help. You see things a different way, from a completely different angle, completely different industries to make it. So you have the confidence that you're putting something out there that's quality enough to represent you the right way, so that people will perceive you when they read or see the book in a way that you'd rather have them perceive and see. And that really was wonderful what you put together to help me do it, cause I'm not sure I would have actually finished it without that. I told you about where I was in life, but I might've just poked at it, but it was the process that got me where I'm going.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nAnd that's a great point as well. This idea that it's a like I said I don't know what the right word is either. It's not quite accountability, but that process there that keeps the train moving. And this idea that in 2023, and we've done a couple of shows AI based over the last six months or so, so it's really going to accelerate and change in the next months and years. But this idea that the old world of publishing was kind of like carving in stone tablets or getting a monk to lay something out on a press and it's kind of one page at a time. That's not the case today. Now it's a very dynamic world of we might print 10 copies or 100 copies, or one person or 1000 person downloads it today, but tomorrow, when the next person downloads it, it could be different. So if something does need tweaking and changing, it's this idea of it doesn't have to be set in stone and getting something out there and then reacting and responding to the feedback that you get. That's the modern way of doing it. It's not thinking about something in a traditional sense, which is take months and years behind the scenes, hopefully get something there and spend all the time in budget on this one version And then okay, now we need to pivot, and that's a problem. Instead, think about it much more as a living thing. It's just manifested in a physical sense, so kind of bridging those two worlds.
There's a point that I'm going to ask you about in a second, about how you pivoted, what you're doing, but to tie in with the AI conversations and the future pacing of that. This is really going to change over the next coming months and years, because the ability of people to get stuff out there, helped by AI to generate the stuff, means that the volume of stuff out there is only going to increase, and increase dramatically. So if you're in a situation where you're doing nothing as in the sense of not doing nothing, but you're not doing this, not putting something out there, you're going to get left behind by everyone that's putting out something. Now. The qualitative versus quantitative debate then comes in. This is going to be a whole load of AI junk out there, one of a better term. So it's not just a silver bullet. That means it will.
\n\nYou still need a message that AI can amplify, but going from it's no longer a case where you can do nothing, i don't think, and being in a position where you can get that. First, get over the obstacles and hurdles and the fear of getting something out there. Know that the marketplace is very iterative and very fast moving, so hopefully that removes some of the barriers. It bridges into one of the things I wanted to ask you. You were talking about changing the from the first book, having a slightly different approach for the second, and that really came from feedback of having something out there in the world. So talk a little bit about that if you can.
\n\nKevin Berwald
\nI'd love to. So the original book that we created I wanted to keep it really in control. Other than, you know, introducing it to a few hundred people and getting it out there for them to review and see was important, but what I was really using it for was when I was doing specific meetings, specific coaching, specific seminars well, during COVID, so specific zoom all the time right And then constantly recommending or buying the books and mailing them out to people so that they would get the stuff. And I was also wanting to use it for predominantly for when I'm teaching or working with individuals and trying to help them grow their business, help them make more money, make their lives easier, by helping them think a little bit differently than they were before about focusing in on the what they're real It's a word that's used a lot, ideal client profile but actually zeroing in on what a real ideal client profile is and being able to quantify those values of what that person is or businesses that you're trying to attract to you by different quantitative metrics that you can quantify and then be able to circle back and say, yeah, that actually does make sense. That is who I want my business to be filled with three to five years from now When I think about where I want to be. That's who it needs to be. But, more importantly, here's why Some of the key elements are are they people you like?
A lot of people never put that first and foremost. If you're going to surround yourself in a business three years from now with 50 more clients than you had today, or pick another number, it certainly is, in my opinion, a lot better if they're people that you actually like, get along with and think the way you do So, then it doesn't feel like work. You're just interacting with people that you enjoy being with, and that's really a very high metric on my scale of figuring out who those clients should be as well as being financially effective for your business, not being waste of time. People who will take your advice when you give it, people who are great referral sources for you, should also be in that metric of who your real ideal clients are And what the time horizon is of how long they'll be your client, and all those things need to be blended together, which creates really a different identity for every individual. So that's what we really coach to, and we find that if we can help people take whatever resources they have, including their time, and the amount of sales interactions they can actually have. If you configure I can, you know I can do 20 sales interactions a month. Well, if we can take those 20 sales interactions of the rest of time and actually apply it to the right client with the highest propensity and probability to do business with them, you never guess what happens. They make more money, they have more time on their hands because you're not spending time doing things they don't want to do, talking to people they don't want to talk to you And they're having a lot more fun. And that's what the book was designed to do to talk about seven or six knowledge torches that help you, that work around your sales process, of what you've been doing, to make you think and see differently, to be more successful. Now, the funny thing about that is because I controlled it.
\n\nWe used a unique name title for the book So it wouldn't necessarily be overly recognized of what it was, and we use the word unicorn and it was a unicorn client acquisition process. Now, i know what it means and I can describe it to someone, but someone just on the street would look at it and might not really know what it is And that was intentionally done. And then now we've driven it down and changed the title So it actually has the word, but not so much that we had to archive the old book, just adapting the title and the cover to actually have the words referral on it and emphasize the world word client acquisition. So that was the first thing in the evolution, because now we want it to be more recognizable Now that I'm now that me and my partner and our business associates have started another LC where we can actually take on more clients, it's tough to really handle the inflows sometimes and you don't want to tell people you can't help them or be able to be as assertive them. So but now that we have, we've changed the title to make it a little more, i guess, less opaque and more transparent as to what it is And then switch the contact information over to the new LLC from the old one.
\n\nI guess I could go to the next point and then I could tell you about what you were kind of alluding to was. We put this book out and it had six knowledge torches in it that have to do with setting goals, who your ideal client profile is like. We were just talking about how to set the stage for what you're going to do before you take off. You're prepared when you're there, opening conversations using note taking, which is it sounds so blasé, but if you're an effective note taker, know how to use it to control a situation and influence people. It's so strong to be able to learn how to do that and listen and then quantifying the value of what you do and how to ask people to do business with you. You put those things out there in this book and you never know which one's going to resonate the most. And the most interesting thing about this book is that what resonated the most isn't in any of the six knowledge torches up front. It was something that was buried back in the setting the stage portion, which is creating an individual professional biography that is used as an introduction tool by your referral sources to introduce you to other people and solve some of the primary problems of why it's so hard to get those introductions to your ideal client profile once you figure it out who it is.
\n\nAnd the biggest thing, the biggest hurdle is if anyone's watching this and they just listen to this one point. This is one thing they should tee into and I'll set it up with a question about anything I'm going to say. This is the point that resonates the most with most people. I ask, if I asked anyone listening to this podcast, if I went to their current clients and I asked them this question would you refer people to this person who's serving you in whatever way? right now I wouldn't say it that way, but I can't say it in a specific occupation, it's. Would you refer people to that? And you know what they say. And I would say nine times, eight times out of 10, without any further thought. They always say of course I would.
\n\nNow, if you let that sink in just a little bit, you would think holy cow, people just need to be asking for more introduction to referrals. But they always not always, i would say at least half the time. After that they pause and they say but who would I introduce them to? And number two how would I do it? Right, see, we talked earlier about losing weight or playing the piano or getting better at golf. We all like to do that. But how? And that's to stop. You can't have something that stops someone to make some thing.
\n\nSo the professional biography is a tool that has seven elements in it that help individuals think through who their ideal client profile is, what their value propositions are, a little bit about themselves and their personality. There's a few other things in there, but it's a tool that when someone has it and they want to refer someone to you, it takes the risk away from them to say here's a piece I'd like you to read And, if it resonates with you, there's a call to action on the bottom of how to get a hold of this person And they can do it with some really kind words. A lot of times it's just a text to somebody and they'll copy me in on the text or they'll email it and they'll copy me in on the email with some really hopefully glowing words, right words. Right Now I've been introduced without them having to physically introduce it. It's an easy process. They understand who I'm looking for or who the person we're coaching to is looking for, and they've already have their contact information. Yeah, it's beautiful.
\n\nAnother way just to throw it that works really well is not just from referral sources. But say, i'm at the golf course and someone says, kevin, what do you do? You know I'll say, well, let me do this, let me give you my professional biography. Scan it over. It'll give you a real good impression and understanding of what I do and who I work with. And after you look at it, let's talk. Then what's your email or your text number or you know? just download it from phone to phone. But what I want is their phone number or contact information. Right, if it seems like the right person, yeah.
\n\nAnd now, key to all that is I'm controlling their perception of who I am before I meet them, and that's the most important thing. For an example I mentioned earlier about, you know, honeybees, and I have a farm where I raise bees and some people really love it. That's on this piece And my picture is on there, very specific picture that looks a certain way that's attractive to the audience that I want to work with. And I multiple times walked somewhere and someone said Kevin, how are you doing? I heard you wrestled in college. My son And they start talking to me for five or 10 minutes I'm not even sure who they are, but it's so read my professional biography knew that I raised these or I wrestled, or I live on an island and there's boats in my backyard, love the fish and hunt.
\n\nWhatever it is, they get to know me first, and so isn't that what we really want And is the connection of those ideal client profiles that we can talk to you and do life with, that are financially symbiotic with us, that can refer us to more people like that right, and what's the easiest way possible for us to be introduced to them and connect without a lot of risk. And that's what this is all about And that's what the second book is. That we pulled out of the first book because we didn't know what was going to be which would resonate the most. That was it, and so now we're taking the second book that we're in process with you right now to work just on the development and working on the professional biography as a referral and introduction tool.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nIt's such a great example because it kind of evidences the methodology. In the first place You're talking about the whole approach, and the whole idea is around deciding who it is that you want to be in business with, deciding what the criteria are, how you can serve them best, how they can work with you best, having that kind of thought process, taking a moment to think about it. But then, out of the back of the book, the feedback that you got was this particular area. So you've identified the people who you would most like in that whole world, and then of the ones in that whole world, they've kind of evidenced to themselves, or they've evidenced by themselves to you, which elements of it you can then best help them with. And then you're doing another iteration of providing that value and creating the asset that delivers it, to start the conversations. So it's kind of self-referential pattern of trying to be as helpful as possible, trying to deliver that value, collecting all of those knowledge torches together, but then looking for which ones spark more and create more of a light and flame, and then double down on that to create more things. Not that the old ones getting thrown out of the window. The old ones still exist. It's still there, but you've got the opportunity to really kind of amplify the signal that you're getting back in from the audience.
And it's so insightful as you speak, and someone who's been through that process because sometimes we'll talk to people about okay, you need to, we'll try and pull out from them which are the most resonating elements, but sometimes it's difficult. I mean, we're talking about creating books, which is sometimes enough of a mental load for people just to pull the stuff together. We don't want to stop the track completely, waiting for answers to these questions that people might find difficult, but to have that flexibility to change afterwards and then double down. So, the clients that you're now working with the second book and those people who you're trying to help, that group of people who are inspired by the professional bio and that's the thing that is resonating with them is that the same group of people that were around in the first instance the older clients so are these? is it kind of bridging off now into a separate group?
\n\nKevin Berwald
\nWell, it's interesting, great question. The first book we started thinking about who I was and where my mindset was not to work hard. It's not that I don't like to work hard, it's that it was time in life where I wanted to play a lot harder. Right, i'm going to work. I want to work funer and I'm going to play hard. That's my emphasis in life right now. So when I wrote the first book initially, the reason I contained it is I did not want to get big and I didn't have a lot of staff and resources.
Well, now we've morphed over to our second book, our second business, which is called Catalyst for Growth, where we actually work with individuals to find those one percentage points of improvement where, if we can find and make it just a little bit better in what they do, the composite of all those one percent improvements creates all those catalysts, create a movement for them to just grow their business substantially. So that's what we're doing now. Part of that what we want to do in working with the same clients we did before, but now broadening the base as well, because we've got more people to work with us now is we want to figure out what that piece is which will draw them to the website. So we're going to expand it And so the second book, which will be done pretty well who knows should be done could be done. Right now Just can't get 15-aged boys that are in La Crosse and swimming and all kinds of stuff. But when that's done they'll get this book, hopefully by referral, and they'll start working and they'll realize I need a tool to complete this piece. And so I suggest right up front that they go to our website, which is catalyst, the number four, numeralforgrowthorg, catalystforgrowthorg And they'll find the biography generator.
\n\nSo when we talk about all seven elements, the question is okay, just the first part. Your picture that you use sounds like it's not important, but if anyone, i've been married for 20 years but I hear dating apps have swipe left and right. Allegedly You want to be attracted to your audience And in fact I was taught public speaking in the 90s by Adina Communications at a major university, and I'll just add this quick 30-second story because it pinpoints what I'm going to say. Next, you go into his class of freshman. There's an auditorium picture, a couple hundred kids looking down. They were in high school a few months earlier. Now they're in college and probably all been out partying whatever they've been doing as they go on to do beginning of the semester.
\n\nAnd he would walk up on stage and he would say all right, everybody grab a pencil and paper and I want you to write down the answers to these questions What kind of car do I drive? What kind of pet do I have? What's a political persuasion am I? What's my net worth? He'd ask four or five questions like that. Right, everybody just writes down feverishly. When they're done writing, he would throw up the syllabus for the semester and he would start talking and within a minute or less someone would raise their hand and say professor, what is the answer to these questions that you just gave us? And he'd say the answer is just like it is for you.
\n\nWhen someone meets you for the very first time, they will create hundreds of biases and thoughts of who you are and what they think you are, and the problem with that is they only go away one at a time when they're proven wrong.
\n\nSo when you introduce to your audience that you want to be attracted to, you got one first shot And so your picture has to be right.
\n\nWhat you say in your introduction about who you are another point, if I were someone listening to this I would key into has nothing to do with you personally. When you say it to someone, the only words you should say are the words that your client wants to hear, and nothing else matters. It doesn't matter how great you are, what your experience is, none of that matters. It only matters what they want to hear, and those are the only things that should be written in that first part, because they see your picture that resonates with them. They hear the words they want to hear. Then they hear some things about you personally. They say you know, this guy's not scary, i could hang out with person. That's what crosses the chasm before you get to your value proposition and what a great professional you are and the best at whatever you do, from cake making to whatever it is. You may be the best, but you know what They don't care.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah, what can come next is a great way of bridging into something that we talk, marrying up with something that we talk about in terms of the readability of books or the readerships. Rather, books is low across the board, and that goes for for fiction books, where the whole job of work of the book is to entertain someone. Even that readership is low. Once you get into the business side of books, it's even lower. But the job of work, almost more than anything else, is to reinforce to people that they're in the right place. Exactly as you said, people want to know that the decision that they've made to even have this interaction is going to get them to where they want to go And there's nothing scary that turns them away.
So, the title of the book, the table of contents, the call to action and then, to a lesser degree, the content it's really, it's a whole job of work is that someone's out there in the world? they've come across you for whatever reason. This is just compelling enough that, yes, i want to take the next step with that minimum viable commitment step, to make a phone call, visit the website. It's the fact that it shouldn't be scary. Such an interesting take that, from a visual perspective in terms of photos, from a bio perspective, from how you construct your emails. It's all the same. It's all about what they're thinking and their next step in the journey. That just really resonated as he talked about it, this idea that you've got of starting the second business rather than the first business. So when we think about the job of work of the book, the first one seems like it was very much used with existing clients or with people who were in the world already, as almost a motivating or educating tool to take them down a path that they're already on.
\n\nKevin Berwald
\nIt's actually very controlled because I would teach from it. Knowledge torches are a week of content, of teaching As a consultant. they could pick what they want or we could walk through all six. at the end of culmination They would have a plan and a way that they could go, connect and grow their business and charge towards those ideal clients that they have.
Stuart Bell
\nRight. That actually is another great reminder for people. The job of work of a book that we don't necessarily always talk about but it does come up in terms of it's a reinforcing element to the business that you do with people further down the track. So we often talk about it as a top of the funnel lead generation piece. but the book blueprint scorecard, for example, there are eight mindsets, the eight building blocks that are in here titles, subheadings, single target, audience, call to action. They're the exact things that we talk about when we're going through the book or if I'm having strategy calls with people that I'm going through as well. The ability, like you experience to actually teach from the book almost, or be giving a point and then reinforce it by pointing to printed words on the page. It's such a psychological cue to help people accept it and move on rather than question it and judge and fight against it. I mean, that's an element we don't talk about much.
The second book, then, more of a lead generation tool, is going to a wider audience and hopefully through referrals, to a pretty significant path. Was that an active decision in terms of? okay, i'm going into the first one, thinking about it in terms of how it's going to be used in a more closed way. And now I'm going into the second one, thinking about it in terms of referrals, and did that impact the structure of it or the bits that you were including or the level of content? I'm kind of thinking that the first one might have been quite a deeper level of content and the second one might be more of an introduction level of content because of where it sits in that funnel.
\n\nKevin Berwald
\nYeah, Well, the first one was giving people just enough information to break their legs, as it were. So they would say, oh, i need that, and then they go. I don't have any idea how to do that. And then they follow it. So each one of the knowledge torches in the book are just enough, but not enough right. Not quite two hundred and twelve degrees to boiling point right, just a little lower where they need to contact me to figure it out, assuming that they actually read it and went through it. That was the goal.
The second one because the professional biography. And just to circle back, when people read that they need to get this bio generator right, so they'll read the book and if they get anywhere into it, they're going to realize I need this bio generator. Where do I get it? They got to go to our website. So that's the first thing. So it's designed to help people, yes, but then move them to our website to get we can get, you know, the drug oh, i'm better contact how to resolve whether or not we're going to fit or mesh, have chemistry together, all those things. So it is more a specific, exact description to go through each seven elements and develop their own professional biography when they're done Won't be, i don't know, maybe a hundred and fifty pages, probably a hundred pages tops, i would guess, maybe less than that, but something they can read and say. Each element this is my element, this is how I build it, build it. The second element, this is go through each one of them linear, line by line, with the primary purpose of getting them to the point where they have their own introduction referral tool. But this is the crossing, the chasm point. This is where it makes.
\n\nThis is what has really grabbed me in a couple instances recently, because if I don't build this book, i'm getting some. I don't know. There was Memorial Day, right, so I didn't get any in the last few days, but before Memorial Day I was getting at least one person a day calling me wanting to do this. So I didn't even know Right. So I need to send them a book because I can't spend three hours with everybody walking through. But if I give them homework to do most of the work, i can do 20, 30 minutes and be just as effective, probably more effective. So that's what it's designed to do is to get us, to get people into the website, to help people do their homework before they call us, so it's a lot easier to do. But here's the point that resonated.
\n\nCircling back to what I just said is doing two meetings in Tampa this year And in both instances, the first time I thought it didn't really, i thought it was just happened right. The second time it happened I realized no, this is fact. So of all these clients that were potential clients, so these are all prospects that showed up big whiteboard, i'm asking them a question you know, what do you want your business to look like in a few years? They say, and I say what's holding you back on the whiteboard? I'm writing down the things that are holding them back. Both times when I look at pictures going back, they both said the same thing.
\n\nNow it cycles down to one word, which is marketing. They don't know how to convey. This is what they were saying. They don't know how to convey their value proposition and what they do to the right group of people. That's all about marketing. They'll always say if I just had a better website. But what they're really saying, if I could just get my message out and say it the right way? Well, the interesting thing about creating the professional biographies that makes you write all those things down.
\n\nWe found out. It was the stepping stone to their marketing program. So people would do this and then they'd come back and we'd see this robust marketing program that grew from that first piece, which was just starting, and creating the seven elements in the ideal client profile, And they had the profile with the biography, the professional biography, And that blew me away. They just needed the first step and the first start, which then leads back into what's our impetus to do this is. We get them to our website and then they want to build a marketing plan. We built marketing plans for all kinds of business all over the country, big and small, national footprints, local footprints. It's what my partners have done, more than me, But with their resources we put all these two things together And we're hoping it turns into something that looks like a lot more fun than even what we're anticipating.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nIt's such a great insight into. it's often that first step. It's like what's the Groundhog Day movie when he steps off the curve and falls in the fall The first steps of the do's. It's that first step that you almost like breaking the seal that then unleashes things and being able to give people a tool where they can put enough intentionality behind it to create something that is the framework for something much bigger. But it's in a bite-sized chunk. It's manageable. They can see the end of where it all plugs together. Plus, then you've got the tools that help them to create it and the book that supports the actual ideas behind it. That first step I can really imagine that is the gatekeeper to a lot of the other stuff that you're then doing further down the track.
Another way of getting close on time. I wanted to quickly talk about referrals. So the idea we talk about it sometimes in the beyond the book element of once the book's created, there's various ways that you can use it, the referral strategy being one, and this idea that, as you said, 80% of people would happily refer people to it, but what usually happens is you'll see them six months later and I'll say oh, did Bob give you a call. I told him he should give you a call, or oh you know what. I was just talking to Mary last week and I wish I'd have remembered and I would have made that connection, because people don't A recognize that a referral opportunity exists or B have that easy way to make the connection.
\n\nLike you were saying. what's the step that makes the referral So for the people who are creating the profiles, the bios? are they using it? Do they get that as well? Do they understand that referral opportunity or have they seen it more as? a I need this is something to do, but not necessarily thinking I need this because it works in this way. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, i know what you're.
\n\nKevin Berwald
\nI think I know what you're asking for. I think I know what I'm asking for. No, i mentioned earlier that processes are stronger than the individual. Everybody wants to die and everybody wants to play better golf, play piano, whatever it is, but you've got to figure out the easiest, simplest way to do it. And so when you create a professional biography and people start using it once or twice and they see it resonate, they just get it all. The light bulbs go on. It was simply just making it very easy for them to do. First of all, writing it means I can convey my value proposition. Now I can.
Actually, if you ask people what do they do, sometimes they say the silliest things. What they do It doesn't resonate with the person they're talking to And sometimes it makes people recoil. Right, it has to. Everything needs to be approached the right way and approached to the right client, and when the light bulbs go on that there is a process that's simple. This isn't the only one. That's just one way to do it. I'll give you another example in just a second.
\n\nBut thinking it through and knowing it, like if you've read the book Think and Grow Rich, right, there's that point about having something in mind that you have centered on right. But the first thing is you've got to center on something. What is that person you're actually gonna see? And I use this analogy a lot when my wife was my oldest son's gonna be 17 this month And I remember when my wife was pregnant the first time And I never realized that I think it's like 6% of the population is always pregnant women. Right, i never noticed them, but as soon as my wife was pregnant, i saw them everywhere. Or the little red sports car you know if you buy one and the next thing you know, whatever car you bought last, you're gonna see it everywhere. And so the focal point is once you actually figure out who you wanna get introduced to and you figure out an easy way to do it and you incorporate it into your everyday process. You don't bring it out once in a while, you bring it out all the time. The professional biography is printed and in digital format with you always, whether it's on your phone or any client you're talking to, and it becomes habit, right. So here's how simple it really is. Not to blow up my whole strategy, but there's a book called Freddie the Frog. It's a little green frog.
\n\nI hear this story from one of my close friends. He worked with a guy who was with an insurance company 30 years ago and he used to. Whoever we talked to. He brought a little frog out and sat it on the desk and he said you know, i'm just saying this here to remind me to ask you a question when I'm done. And at the end the people are looking at the frog and they'd say what's the frog for? He goes, i wanna figure out who else I can introduce to Freddie the Frog. And he'd ask for referrals. Now, the first thing I've ever heard in my life. I could never do it myself. I have too much pride, but that guy led the country and refurbished a new business.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nBecause no one else is orchestrating it, or having that intentionality, going into the situation knowing that was gonna be the outcome. I mean it doesn't take much to differentiate yourself from the crowd At the end of the day. That extra level of specificity or targeting an audience, i mean we see it all the time. With some of the books I've we've done a thousand or so now And the level of random small niches that people work in, you'd think that there's never enough business to be that tailored But to dominate such a small area or small industry these days it's more than possible. So to have that intentionality behind your biography, behind the setup, to know that these are the people who I wanna work with, who are the fun people, who are the profitable people, who are the ones that we can help most, and have that, like I said, that avatar dialed in, it just really helps all of that intentionality With.
Kevin Berwald
\nThe next thing is I developed this professional biography Right, mine's in my book. I'm holding one of them right now. I accept it. You use it. If you don't have one. You don't have a green frog. The question is, how do you have a green frog that someone will resonate with, remember, understand who you're looking for and make it very easy for them to refer people to you, and That's it. So, so many benefits to creating it, whether it's launching marketing plans, figuring out what you want to do, what you want your business to look like, and it's just that easy, simple first step. I mean yeah, but I mean, if you're gonna write a book, it's probably a good idea and I know you agree with this to know who your clients that you're targeting, because if you don't, it's you know. You never know you could hit the lotto.
Stuart Bell
\nBut yeah, but it's a big gamble. Much better to put a little bit of thought behind it and at least hopefully get it dialed in a little bit Well.
Kevin Berwald
\nI agree.
Stuart Bell
\nTime goes fast, like I knew it was. If you're up for it, it'd be great to do another call a little bit further down the track. And two things I'm thinking is one, just check back in with the book further down the track, see how that's going, just to give people a book update. But the other thing, if you're up for it, would be great to do like a little training session or a little way to Expand on your actually your methodology a bit more, because I think all the people who are receiving this are all people who have expressed an interest in a book as a lead generation tool. So obviously they're in business and I think this methodology, this approach, would be a benefit for everyone. So if you're up for doing a quick intro training session for people and obviously well then point people back to the site, but so it'd be great to that at some point in the future as well, really add some value.
Kevin Berwald
\nI would for sure. In fact, the quote that I use on my professional biography is from Napoleon Hill. It says it is literally true that you can succeed best and quickest by helping others to succeed. Yeah, so from that mindset, i'd be happy to help, you know, help people be successful, help people make more money, expand their business, make their life easier. That's really the only job we have, right, exactly.
Stuart Bell
\nYeah, it makes all the difference. It's the success. If that comes in a vacuum, away from everyone else, i mean it's better than no success, but it's nowhere near as good as feeling. We were talking about the podcast just before we started recording and doing more client podcasts now than the earlier seasons when it was really Me and Dean will be in Betsy talking about the process Way, way more. I mean I could talk about it all day, but it's really much more enjoyable Getting to see people and hearing their experience. So, yeah, on the shoulders of Giants for sure. Well, until we get that scheduled, where's the good place where people can find out more? you mentioned their website before, but just put that back out there So people can jump the gun and check things out for themselves. You bet the easiest way.
Kevin Berwald
\nWay isn't that? there's the big bomber. How do you want people to contact you? Contact you once, but you can go to our website, which is catalyst, the numeral for growth dot org catalyst for growth dot org. And you could email me directly kberwald@catalyst4growth.org and I'll get back to you. Generally I can get back to people or someone will get back to you the same day. Sometimes it takes two days if we're really busy over Memorial Day. But, yeah, happy to help out any way we can.
And, candidly speaking, i'll just tell you an all candor. But I just told you which was taught to me by multiple people a culmination of all kinds of people will help me be successful in life. I don't think I have a really original idea in my mind. It's all been borrowed from other people that I've been blessed to be, you know, schooled by and create something like this. But I can tell you that I've never, a single time, in all candor, i've never seen anybody not get more referrals by doing what we just did. I've never seen it not work. It is always work. The only time it hasn't worked is, as we talked about earlier. Some people will create a book and then, once they're done, it's like whoo, that's over, right. But they actually use it and show it to people and use some of the strategies to just get that biography of people to read. They've always gotten more referrals than they did without it. Yeah, we'd love to help people grow their business.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThat's fantastic. Well, we'll make sure to report the link in the show notes So in podcast players or as people looking on the website they can just click through. We'll get something scheduled for sure to do a quick The 101 level of it, and then people can follow up with you directly for the next level after that. But game was plug.
Kevin Berwald
\nIt's on the back of my book. So if you get online and you look for the unicorn client uniform unicorn client acquisition process book, my phone number and my emails on the back and a copy of one of my professional biographies It's all in the book.
Stuart Bell
\nFantastic. Well, i'll tell you what I'll link to that as well and then make sure that people have got all the channels to get through. Right, cool, kevin, been an absolute pleasure, really looking forward to catch up on the next one. Everyone is listening. Definitely recommends checking out the links that we'll put in the notes and we chat to Kevin directly. But until the next one, thanks for your time and we'll speak soon.
Kevin Berwald
\nVery fun, have a profitable day.
Stuart Bell
\nThank you.
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Jackie Campbell, certified financial planner, public accountant, and author of a new book Be Prepared, a great book that helps people create a peace-of-mind plan to support their family in an emergency.
\n\nShe shares her journey in the financial services industry, starting with a love for math and stumbling into a position with a CPA firm right out of high school before transitioning into being a young female business owner, owning her own practice, developing a passion for helping people create financial plans that support their goals.
\n\nJackie also shares the thought process behind her book and how it is a valuable jumping-off point for critical conversations.
\n\nThis is a great episode with lots of actionable insights.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/141
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nI am doing great. Thanks, Stuart, for having me.
Stuart Bell
\nFantastic. So Jackie is a certified financial planner and author of Be Prepared.
Jackie Campbell
\nYes, a certified financial planner and a certified public accountant. And yeah, I'm excited about the book that just came out.
Stuart Bell
\nI was getting confused. So I've been in the US for five years now Yeah, five years, and then back and forth three years before that. So my background is on the IT side of financial services back in the UK, not on the customer side. But whenever I'm talking to financial advisors, cpas, the accountants, i always get that I always double pressed myself, thinking I was in UK terminology or US terminology. And it's funny how you kind of switch into. I think I'm not defaulting US but I think that I'm falling back to UK. So it's like sometimes tripping over the words, picking the wrong word, but usually it's right around. So if I stumble over words partway through, it's because my mouth is getting ahead of my brain. That's good talking to me.
Jackie Campbell
\nThat's fine. I picked up on it just a little bit. That's my clarifier.
Stuart Bell
\nPeople often say, oh, where you from? Pick it up on the accent. So I have to say, well, either Florida in the office, or Pennsylvania home, or the UK originally. So it depends how they're asking. Once your background then, have you been in this business for a number of years? Did you come to it straight out of college with something you've kind of transitioned into?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, i kind of stumbled onto a position with a CPA firm a startup at public accounting firm right out of high school. So I've been doing this for quite a few years now And I have had my own practice here Campbell and company for 30 years. Celebrating our 30th year And you know I just I love math. I was on the math team. It just seemed like a natural, you know, transition, natural career for me And, you know, also becoming a certified financial planner and just kind of pulling that whole entire 360 degree view together for business owners and for individuals, just just just something that I've, you know, been passionate about. I love solving problems. I didn't, i guess I didn't realize it, but you know, when you're on the math team you kind of kind of nerdy and you like solving problems.
Stuart Bell
\nSo I just so greatly found a career straight from school that you've enjoyed and stuck with and really kind of found that passion straight away. I think a lot of people kind of have to circle around to it a little bit before they land on the thing that they ultimately want to do, but it really sounds like it resonated right out of the gates The organizations he worked for and then transitioning into your own practice. Was that a pretty natural progression as well? Kind of as an outsider I kind of think of CPAs and accountants who has taken that path? quite often It's kind of doing the journeymen work with another organization But then ultimately a lot of people tend to go out on their own. Was that your experience as well?
Jackie Campbell
\nOh, yeah, yeah, i started with a small to mid-sized firm and you know, you learn the wealth of knowledge. just learning from somebody who's got all the experience is just priceless and invaluable. And we moved when we moved to Central Florida. that's, that was part of, you know, finishing up school and I tried some private accounting as well, but I didn't, i didn't really care for that. I didn't like the part about worry about somebody else's finance and them being able to pay the bills and salaries and stuff. So, yeah, it just was a goal that came to be. And I was one of the youngest CPAs CPA firm owners right in the Tampa Bay area. Oh, fantastic.
Stuart Bell
\nThat as a journey in itself, then that must be quite, that must be quite an interesting journey because you get recognition and that as a I don't want to say something that you would turn my so much, but my brother's a Yopo I've mentioned on the show a few times before, but he maybe not so much now, but he was pretty young in the industry as well, And the whole young person development loop around it. The fact that female young business owner, all of those elements when we're going back with some age, so when we're going back to when we were starting, those must have been some milestone moments as well. When looking at the peer group that's out there, has that changed recently And you find that that's less of an issue now? Or is it the case that being a successful female owned business is actually more of a take to hang a hat on those words?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, i mean just to answer your question. I think that it has changed significantly in the past three, three decades. And you know, i just remember that when I, you know, first started, you know the clients will come in and they would, you know they're near retirement age and they would say, are you sure you're old enough to know what you're doing? And I'm like, yes, I'm older than you think I am And you know that changed somewhere right in between. That nobody asked me that anymore, but you know I kind of miss those days.
But yeah, it was definitely a bit of a challenge. You know it is a man's world. I mean still in financial services. You know my husband works with me now he retired from another career And when we go to events outside of our area together they just assume he is the financial advisor and he is the owner of a campaign company. You still follow his lead. Yes, yeah, it's interesting. It's still a challenge, you know. But you know he always says, oh no, this is. You know, my wife is the brains. You know this is her company, you know, but it's definitely changed and improved through the years. I think it's much easier for women these days.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah, it's always interesting. It's kind of not one of the side trackers, too much on the tangent, but obviously why English accents approach in 50 years old the setup of the. You kind of pass through, don't really notice it. My career, before owning the business I mentioned just before we started recording, was for corporate IT back in the PDK and financial services in London And that environment. I mean it was really, i think although maybe I should go back and look but I really think it was kind of like a 50-50 split male, female. I think I always worked for female managers, so no, we noticed it so much.
But a last couple of the shows that we've done have been talking to people where it's been much more of a struggle, much more of a real issue that they've actually had to fight to overcome. So that kind of spectrum. It's been interesting talking about the books as an extra authoritative piece that anyone can do. But it maybe goes some way to seek the box that psychologically helps people get past whatever natural bias that they've got towards establishing you as the authority And I don't think that was necessarily the reason that you did it At all, but any small element that helps overcome that. it's definitely interesting to have more conversations with people where that's been more of a thing that they've been thinking about.
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nYeah, i mean, you know you would think that it's really not a challenge these days, but it's still. It's still kind of is and you know, but it's at the end of the day it's just. You know, how much knowledge do you have? and I think you know, in the financial services arena and especially as a fiduciary, you know it's about building trust and once you can get that solid foundation with trust and that, you know I might not know all the answers, but I do know people and I do have the ability to research that and find out the best solution and the correct solution for you.
You know, and there's so much accuracy that is required in the CPA profession. You know the numbers need to be accurate. Nobody wants to overpay taxes by even a dime. You know those are all extra pressures. You know that come on someone. So it definitely provides a little bit extra challenge. But it's just, you know, if you're a fiduciary and you're confident in what you can do and really the ultimate goal is to help the client be the hero of their story, it makes it a little easier.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nRight, and that's openness and transparency that I think all organizations have to have these days, but perhaps it comes easier to some people than others.
Again, if you look at stereotypes, the kind of bravado I'm just going to go in there and tell you what it is the kind of old, old, established career type person Going into organizations now and not even from the perspective of other things, i don't know, but coming in from the perspective of how things are changing what happened last year, what happened five years ago, the rules and the regulations and how they've interpreted all of these things are changing.
\n\nSo, going in from the perspective of, hey, we're on this journey together. There are things that are always changing. We're bringing our expertise and capability around the rules and the regulations, but the interpretation and how we can maximize your individual situation is going to change by and by client Having that, being able to build that relationship with people and start the conversation from the set, from saying, hey, we're going to look at every facet, every option that we've got and really diving to make the most of it. Imagine that for clients, that's the thing that they're looking for. They're looking for that confidence and reassurance that they're in the right place and you are the person to get them to their finish line Right.
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nAnd it's more than just about one part of your financial plan or your retirement plan or your business plan. It's just about pulling all those things together, And a lot of financial services is seen as a one-time thing, but it's really. It's being part of the journey with someone. So you build that relationship with them and, gosh, I'm so, so blessed Being able to celebrate someone having their 100th birthday and now I'm working with their children and their grandchildren and even great-grandchildren coming into the picture. It's just so rewarding. But you're right, It's so much more than just the numbers or just a product, one meeting. It's just about building that longer-term relationship.
Stuart Bell
\nLike I said, you know multi-generational relationships with people. I mean, at the end of the day, it's not a transactional business that we're in. Most of the people who we work with, most of the people who you're working with, i guess, as clients, are in the business of building relationships for long-term, lifetime value. It's not how many businesses around there are just transactional, kind of coming to the store by something and disappearing and never come back again. So to be able to see that journey and help people as their situation change and also know their situation. So we've been in 90-minute books. We've been in business since 2015,. So we're in our 20-23, eight years.
I'm a accountant. I mean we rely on them to know actually what the business is doing and what we're trying to achieve, not just come in and look at a number and give a view on it. It kind of transitions into the book a little bit. So the book is Be Prepared and it talks about helping people set up the Be Prepared for the worst-case scenario so they're not leaving their family with a difficult situation. When you look across the whole business and any book that you could have written, why pick that one as the starting point for conversations?
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nWell, this one had a special meeting for me personally and I think, no matter what you see other people go through the experiences, the difficult times especially, it's different when you go through it personally. Having helped families and then when my own father became ill, that was like a kind of time standstill. When you're involved in it, and intimately involved in it, i just realized, wow, am I doing enough to help those that I love and care about the most and make sure that everything is all in order? We just don't see ourselves getting older. You don't see yourself in your own story and all movie, so to speak. But that was just a big wake-up call and I wanted to make sure that I was able to help others to kind of not make some of those same mistakes. That was just a personal why.
For me I did the strategic coach. Unique ability and the way that I analyzed things is to be able to look at things from a 360 degree lens and getting at your affairs in order. That's just part of an important plan Being prepared, living in Florida with the hurricanes, we're always disaster prepared, working on that, talking about it, but also being disaster prepared for your own personal life, if you think of. We all, at the end of the day, want to be as organized as we can and be as helpful to our family, our spouses, our loved ones, and there's typically one CFO to the family, and whoever that CFO is, they have their own unique filing system, and you may think it's normal, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, but it's just about making sure that whoever comes behind you, make it as easy for them as possible and give them that, those breadcrumbs, so to speak, so that they can come right behind your financial life and just fill in if and when you're not able to do that.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nLike I say, it often happens in situations that either a completely out in the blue and an accident or something traumatic happens or you don't realize how quickly things are progressing. And I can imagine that there are. My grandparents have passed away now but fortunate parents are still alive, but they're certainly getting on a little bit in age. I can remember seeing it with my grandparents. The decline and the falling off was relatively quick. I mean, it probably wasn't in terms of the actual calendar years that passed, but in terms of your interaction with the family members, thinking that there's always a tomorrow or you'll get around to it, and then, at the point where you can't quite remember everything or things get missed, it does leave quite a big hole for people to try and fill in and do some detective work on the back end. So it's either not around or not able to answer the questions as clearly as perhaps you once were when you set up in the first place. It's such a we often talk, obviously being on the book side and the creation side, but we're often talking to people relatively narrowly about the creation of the book as a lead generation tool or as a tool to start the conversations, because we've got some time constraints around it. We don't necessarily always get the opportunity to dive too much into people's stories or how they get to the point of writing the book they want to write. But your example, i think, is the perfect blend of having a personal reason for writing something, clearly seeing that, having this be prepared book which highlights what you should do to make sure that there is a folder that you can pass on to someone who's there left picking up the pieces, having that personal journey into it. It marries so well with what we might well have had as a conversation of saying, okay, we're trying to achieve a kind of a marketing outcome and this is a great way of doing it because it's a small subject that's very kind of self-contained. It's easy for people to understand. There's not a huge amount of kind of prior knowledge that needs to be brought to it. You can deliver all of the value in that book.
I've been talking to people about going deep on a narrow subject rather than kind of superficial and broad. Really deliver value to that one thing because there's always a conversation to connect that conversation. The next kind of circle out. So what I really like about the book The Eurow is it's serving those two purposes. It's a great marketing tool because it is that people can resonate with it. Have that. I want that response. It's easy to consume, it's easy to get the feeling of progression and doing something and then there's a very clear logical progression to a further conversation and it's obviously that passion project. So, when it comes to what was included and what was included and what wasn't included, was that relatively straightforward? Do you have a kind of a clear view of what the table of contents was, what that kind of lands, and see what the landscape was when you started?
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nYeah, i think. So the table of contents was really easy. I know I had worked I believe it was with Susan that helped me with the title, because the title I had picked out. She said, no, i think you need to be a little bit more clear with this. And so we came up with the be prepared and I love that, by the way, just being intentional, being prepared, cleaning up your messes, I mean that just speaks to me. But the table of contents was pretty easy. I kind of knew what I wanted to do. Where I struggled was when I started overthinking about the personal aspect. The forward actually was the most difficult for me to write because my why?
Stuart Bell
\nRight, yeah, actually that's interesting, i guess. Well, make sure we can point people towards where they can find out more. Get a copy of the book before we finish, but your forward, particularly because it does have that more personal connection. Was that the challenge? Because obviously there's the connection to your dad and the journey that you went through. Was it really that personal element of it that there was the difficult thing? Was it difficult in trying to just contextualize it for other people reading it? Was it more internal or external?
Jackie Campbell
\nIt was definitely more internal. I would say I had it 80, 90% done. And then I sat on it for a while and because I thought, well, i just have to be perfect with this because of the personal nature but I really didn't have to be perfect It just sort of one day it dawned on me. I'm like why. You know, okay, all progress begins with starting to tell the truth right, especially to yourself. And you know why is this so challenging for me? And you know it ultimately came down to.
You know, i didn't want to be the hero, because that is not the purpose of this book at all. It's not the purpose of any of the 360 degree financial planning that I do for my clients. It's to help them be the hero of their own story. And I think that once I had that, it's like I want to be able to set someone up like my own parents, my mom, my dad, to be the hero. And you know what am I giving them? enough to be able to get that foundation started. Or you know the checklist and the important aspects of it. And once I figured that out, i'm like that's it. It was just smooth sailing from there and we got it wrapped up pretty quickly, i think after that.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah, it is. It's one of those things. Well, whatever the hold back is because we see it a lot of the times with I mean, let's probably say 60% of clients who we work with get to the end of the process, but it's not just bang my bang, get it knocked out and it's fine because everyone brings something to it, whether that something is a very clear approach and definitely wants to go in a direction, but struggle with time or focus, or the what's the word on the book, the affection, the procrastination, analysis, paralysis, that kind of overthinking you either before they get started or once there's the version one and thinking about how to get it finished off. So you're definitely not alone in that respect. But it's interesting that most people in fact the podcast I recorded the day before yesterday, as we would call this exactly the same situation had kind of disappeared for a year or two and then just came back and it was just one small tweak that Robert finally thought about and that kind of unlocked the rest of it.
So I think some people feel bad that this is happening. Could we talk about in terms of a 90-minute book and getting it to market quickly and kind of then responding and pivoting, potentially based on feedback. So I think people can feel bad about it, but it's definitely a forward. Progress is progress And as long as there's a prioritization there to make sure that it's not sat in the shelf forever, it's just kind of let it percolate long enough to get past whatever that hold up is and move forward.
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nThat's not your spot on, and that would be my encouragement to other people who have something to do. Don't let a 90-minute book take you a quietest few as many months and years as it took me to get it all finished. It really is, you know, once you have the idea. I mean you made it so simple to do. You've got a great system, a great process, and it was really me, i mean. We got the cover done really quick too, so the front and the back And so the entire system was, and the process was really easy. It's just that one little bit. So I would definitely encourage people not to get caught up in having to be perfect.
Stuart Bell
\nRight. I think I should go back and look at some of the shows or think about some of the future ones that we're recording in the next few months and ask people our plan is always or our anticipation, if you like, is always get the first version out there relatively quick and then pivot after that. This isn't kind of a tablet written in stone We're not publishing cows. that owns everything, and making changes is difficult. We want to get it done and get it to you as quick as possible, but I think, anecdotally at least, the majority of people get hung up before they actually get it out in front of people, as opposed to our vision of the lean model of getting it out there and then pivot, based on feedback or how it is actually out in the world.
And I think it's the benefits of a book as a marketing tool is the book has some magic to it beyond just some printed words on pieces of paper.
\n\nPeople have expectations of what books are, and books are kind of things that sound shells and should be revered a little bit, which obviously isn't true at all. But I think people get hung up on that a little bit and want it to be perfect before it even goes out there, as opposed to putting out something out there. that's a work in progress and bringing the audience along with them and asking for feedback and seeing if it makes sense and using it as a jumping off point for lots of any conversations. Looking back now and knowing that it took a little bit longer than perhaps you thought going into it, how comfortable are you that in an idea world or doing the next one? would you possibly get out there earlier that perhaps it isn't as polished and get your own feedback and other people's feedback but have it out there doing something, or would you still prefer to take the time to being more confident of the first version that goes out there?
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nI think being more comfortable with the first version is probably going to be more accurate. I mean, obviously you do the editing there for us at 90-Minute Books And I had some other team members just proofread it just to make sure that it made sense to everyone else And I think, just doing it, the book itself, i mean the purpose is this is not going to be a national bestseller, right, it's really to get some information out to someone that you really trust and want to help and or already are working with, or you're trying to help additional people provide that service, and this not being the main part of our capabilities or what we do to help someone. It's certainly part of that 360 degree. I had the document storage system that goes along with it. I mean, that's really. You know this is the my when file And you know we all have our own black book, our box, whatever we're doing to store our important documentation. But you know what else is the book trying to support And I already had that in place.
So you know it's not like the book was my standalone, the only thing that I have. It's just there, you know, to inspire someone and just to remind them. You know that. You know. Hey, this is important for me. She's spot on with what she's recommending here. You know, and just you know, clean up your messes. I'm a real big fan of that And I think the book is just a way just to get that message across, instead of just you know, lecturing all the time.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nRight, it's starting the conversation, isn't it? There's an opportunity to have a jumping off point for a bigger discussion And I think, as you have with the forms of that, the book isn't the product. You're not trying to sell the book and the book isn't the be-all and end-all. It's the starting point. It's an easy way to introduce people to an idea, but the idea is all of this rest of the world of things that's going to. Some will resonate with some people and other pieces will resonate with other people. That starting that idea, that it's the starting point of a conversation. The conversation is going elsewhere.
I often hope that's the thing that frees people up from whatever is holding them back from getting their ideas. I mean, you've been in business for 30 years. There's probably few situations that you haven't come across in the past. If you can create assets, whether it's a book or a podcast or something else, that kind of helps people start that conversation and take the first step. I mean, as business owners, there's people who are kind of passionately involved in what we're doing.
\n\nYou sometimes just want to take people and shake them a little bit and say, hey, listen, this is the piece of information you need, or, hopefully, this is the piece of information you need to unlock a further journey towards something. Whatever access, we've got to have that conversation. A book obviously is a great one, but so are all the other tools. I think it takes some of the pressure off. A lot of people get caught up on this kind of school exercise of whatever your submitted report is. It needs to be perfect. If someone with a red pen is going to market and give you a passing or failing grade where this is the complete opposite of that, it's really just a start.
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nExactly. No one has to be perfect and nothing is ever going to be perfect, right? Because our financial life, our passwords, for example, they change on a daily basis almost. But just having some sort of road map so that somebody can kind of come and fill in your shoes, that was my goal here to inspire them. And if it's not a danger to you and it's not a worry to you and it doesn't bother you, then it's not a problem for you.
But for many people they just want to make sure they've gone through those bad experiences And they've seen and have some really hard one wisdom of what didn't work from another family member and how difficult it was. So it's just to give them that reassurance that, okay, i need to keep doing what I'm doing or maybe I can make this a little bit better. Jackie's right, i need to at least use a password tool or something. And even if something is simple is making sure and write down the login to your phone. I mean those have really important consequences if and when it is time and it's important. So just making sure and going through some of those things. if you have pets, what medications are there on, what is their, who is their veterinarian, all those things. if your family members don't live near you, they don't know what goes on a daily basis. So it's just some of those little things that might be easily overlooked. And, at the end of the day, what I find is most of us just want to have that happy, epic, hallmark kind of life and really do what we love, have the freedom to have the relationships with who we really want to spend time with, and once we get to retirement, freedom of time is so important, but we forget the business aspect of it. So this is just a little general, you know, tap on the shoulder and just a great way to kind of get your affairs in order if and when the time comes.
\n\nAnd my perfect example was you know our photographs. you know, when we grew up, you know we had the old what, the one 10s, the codex and the Polaroids, and you have the, your photos. if you think about it, you have them in scrapbooks, you have still some negatives, some of the film, and then today you have those things still most likely, but you also have things on your phone, things on a tablet, things on a computer, things in the cloud. So that is the exact way that our financial life is. It's just kind of all over the place. You know, 30 years ago, tracking behind somebody, if somebody was sick and in the hospital or unable to take care of their financial affairs or passed away, eventually things would come in the mail And you would know they have an account here, they have a safe deposit box here. you would be able to eventually put the puzzle together. Now it's electronic and there's no puzzle to really put together.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nIt's such a great point And actually there was something that he said in the as he started off. They're saying that some people they're happy with the situation that they're in. So it may even be the case that oftentimes we think about writing the book as someone's going to follow through step by step and start A and get to Z, but that's not necessarily the case either. There's just as much value for people just taking one snippet or even going through the whole thing and thinking, oh yes, I've got all these things checked off and it gives them peace of mind and they can move on to something else. That and combined with, like you said, the lack of an electronic trail now, particularly if you've the worst case scenario, you didn't have access to someone's email account when they passed away. I mean, that is the repository of everything these days and without that, they say, mail is very unlikely to turn up and give you an indication of where things are.
Jackie Campbell
\nRight and I'm getting more and more of clients.
I know here in the state of Florida we have unclaimed property and I just spoke to someone recently and they had some letters.
\n\nThey were some unclaimed funds of about $6,000 that they don't know if it came from a relative or they don't know the underlying what it was, but it was money at a bank and they're like well, you know, i don't think I would just walk away and leave $6,000 sitting somewhere.
\n\nBut you know, life insurance policies, things like that's ultimately where it shows up and then you know you just have to. It just costs more to actually get it to who you want it to go to. So it's just picking up one little tip to make what you have in your financial life a little bit easier. You know or you know I work with clients that you they become the successor trustee, they become the power of attorney for someone's estate and that's a real challenge. I mean, that's a real job for many and the more organized and tidy it is, the easier for that successor, you know. But putting that puzzle together they often have to hire multiple professionals to kind of figure everything out and just those little tips can save a lot of money at the end of the day.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nMoney and grief and heartache. I mean, you can imagine talking to or thinking of your own situation and there's no situation where someone came up to you and said hey, are you interested in creating a scenario where you're going to give pain and angst and headache to your close loved ones? you're obviously going to say no, but by not addressing this beforehand, dropping all of this or them having this dropped in their lab at a time, at a moment where obviously it's very emotionally charged and they're dealing with the actual issue of you being incapacitated or, worse, not being here anymore. I mean, it really is. There's a significant responsibility for all of us to try and make it as easy as possible for whoever is left behind.
Jackie Campbell
\nOh yeah, and getting your affairs in order. If you know whatever you want your funeral arrangements to be or not to be, you know spell those out. Especially. I find a lot of complications when there's a blended family, when you know more than one marriage or more than one set of children. You know there's different ideas of what mom and dad wanted and you know, at the end of the day, you know leave your spouse, your loved ones, your children, whoever that may be, with a conscience. If you write those things out, then you know it's what mom and dad wanted and you know I don't know many people that don't want to honor what their parents would want.
Stuart Bell
\nRight. Yeah, it's definitely much easier. All of these conversations have to have to happen sometime. It's easier to proactively have them and deal with it now than deal with the consequences later. One question I always ask people is think about the book as a tool in the bigger business. Now some people don't think of them as very much marketing tools at the front of the funnel. Other people think of them as kind of authority building tools and other people think of it as like a referral opportunity to give trusted people to share. Going into this on, now that we're at the end of the process, did you have an idea of how you were thinking about using it? or, now it's finished, does it fit into the bigger business plan in a way that's kind of structured, leading people towards the next step, or is it still early days on that front?
Jackie Campbell
\nYeah, no, i think you know, it's definitely something. When we have wealth management clients, we work with them on this and we provide them some of these tools and have that conversation. That is one thing and it also enables us to give a tool to them to open up and being able to start a conversation with their family members. Giving them the book is like oh, this is great, we have a checklist, a guarding your legacy checklist. It's just a really simple five pages, just having that conversation. You know, hey, i had this conversation with Jackie, my certified financial planner and my accountant. Jackie handles everything just about dealing with money for me and my family and I thought this might be a good resource for you too, just to help them open up and start having those conversations.
Because talking with your parents about you know, hey, what's going to happen, you know when the time comes and you know, not everyone is open about the assets they have, where things are, you know how to kind of come behind and who's going to get what. So it just is a chance to actually start having those conversations before it's too late and then, even if it's just referring them to a professional, you know, i've always told my children. You know, if anything ever happens to me and your dad, you know this person is our trusted you know friend that's going to handle everything and this is the attorney that you need to talk to so they'll help you. You know, figure everything out. But not everyone is open and shares everything.
\n\nI have some clients who just have a family meeting once a year and they go through their my when file and they kind of tell them everything. Okay, if anything happens, here's where things are. They just don't want them to be surprised and caught off guard. A lot of that comes from their own experiences. But I think for that reason and just to you know, have an opportunity to continue talking to people we love. You know working with people, and now it's no longer with the internet, with zoom, and you're not restricted to just one county, one state, one community, it's pretty much worldwide and you know any little bit of impact and influence that we can have just to make somebody's life or confidence a little bit better. That's really the goal here.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah, like you say, we've got knowledge and understanding of our own sphere of influence in our own realms. The most we can do is to share that with people and help making their lives easier. I know we're wrapping up a time I got. I just looked at the carpet and before we start I said we go for half an hour and I'll probably look at the carpet and realise that we're over time and exactly that's happened. But just one quick one.
You mentioned there people use the book as an opportunity for them to have conversations And I think that's a little thought of fact, particularly for financial planners, wealth management people, anyone who's dealing with that legacy conversations the opportunity now that you've given them something that they can use as a jumping off the conversations in their own family, whether it's the book or the folder. It's just having a reason for them to talk about it in a story where either they might forget or not have the confidence or the language or the comfort in raising it just at the dinner table. Now there's a reason to have that conversation, which is obviously just going to be beneficial because it gets their conversation going. I think that's a very underlooked opportunity or benefit of having the books that start that conversation. So time's gone fast. I really appreciate you telling me. Thank you for sharing your story with people. Where can people go to find out more? I want to make sure they've got opportunities to check out what you guys are doing.
\n\nJackie Campbell
\nYeah, online at MyCampbellAndCocom and we can have information there about the win file and the book and all the other services that we offer. And also the book is available on Amazoncom, so I actually got a copy in my hand this week, so thank you for that. And you know, photo credits is the most beautiful beaches in the world in the Panhandle, florida.
Stuart Bell
\nSo that's the benefit of living there. It's lots of nice photo opportunities for things. Jackie, again thanks for your time. We really really love to catch up again in the six months and see how things are going Well. This latest season of podcasts, talking to authors more directly, has been great, and what I've said to most of them is let's check back in 65 months, because I'm sure you'll start getting stories back from people where it's actually had a real impact And it'll be really exciting to be able to share some of those stories, not just from the business perspective but how it's made a change in people's lives. So if you're up for that, it'd be really great to have you back And I'll make sure we put the links to the website and the Amazon link in the show notes. So, as people are watching and listening, just check out the show notes and we'll link directly to that. And just thanks again for your time and we'll speak soon.
Jackie Campbell
\nThank you, stuart, and thank you to 90-Minute Books. Your team has been absolutely amazing through the entire process.
Stuart Bell
\nFantastic. Thank you Appreciate it. Make sure to pass the message on Everyone. Thanks for listening again, As I say, check out the links to the Jackie's company and the book in the show notes and we'll catch everyone next time.
Today on the Book More show, we're talking with Vanessa Vasquez de Lara, a family attorney in Miami, Florida, about her new book The Florida Man's Guide to Getting Divorced.
\n\nVanessa's expertise in family law and her passion for helping dads navigate this difficult time comes through in the book as she looks to provide support in the divorce process and resources to help much more holistically.
\n\nIt's a great conversation that highlights the opportunity to engage with potential clients and the people supporting them by leading with something that genuinely adds value.
\n\nHer approach in working with other experts to create the book is also a fascinating example of the synergy of working with complementary, non-competing professionals to create a win-win for everyone.
\n\n\n\n
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/140
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nVanessa
\nI'm good. How are you Stuart?
Stuart
\nFantastic Good, thank you. We're just on a Tuesday after the holiday weekend, so peak energy for recording the podcast and hitting the floor running For sure, for sure. So why don't we start by telling people a bit about the background of the film and what you do and how we can transition into the book? What I really love about this book is we often talk about the specificity of the book and how it targets a particular niche audience, and you also think it's a perfect example. So give us a background on the film and yourself and we'll talk a bit more about the book.
Vanessa
\nThank you. So I've been practicing for almost 20 years. I'm a family attorney in Miami Florida and I've had the firm. We're actually celebrating 11 years. We're actually having a anniversary and book launch party in a few weeks. I'm really excited about that.
So I've been practicing and doing only family life for quite a bit now and we love helping families, but we especially love helping men and helping and being able to bring some of the different issues that they particularly have to the forefront, which is why, when I decided to write a book, we decided to niche it down and have it be specifically to that target audience. They do tend to be a little bit more concerned, a little bit more surprised. The statistics are that women tend to file more often to start a divorce case. So it's actually something that men sort of sit back and sit around and are a little bit unhappy, but they're not necessarily taking that action and moving forward. So we've actually seen that a lot in our practice and that's why I thought that would be a good way of sort of giving them some of the information that they don't always know to ask and some of the information that they may not realize that they don't know.
\n\nStuart
\nIt's such a great insight into the idea that not only do you see it kind of numerically, the numbers of people that you see, but that group of people who you can maybe help more are maybe the ones who are caught in the back foot because they're not correct to be the ones initiating it.
I can imagine I was divorced myself in the UK and unfortunately it was as amicable as it could be, but you definitely see situations where it's absolutely not and I can imagine the person being caught on the back foot of a less than amicable separation. There's so many questions and so many specifics to the individual circumstance. When thinking about writing a book, then how do you decide which is the right level of information to go with? because oftentimes we'll talk to people and we're trying to say or suggest being specific and target it for that perfect avatar and a lot of times the initial response is always well, it depends, this situation, it could be one and this situation could be another. Obviously, we know that people just consuming that information at the first level they're just really after the lay of the land. But did you have a similar challenge? You're deciding what the right level was to write.
\n\nVanessa
\nSo this is not a book that's going to tell you exactly what's going to happen in your divorce. There's so many different things that can really affect that. I wasn't interested in trying to talk to everybody and tell them well, if this happens, you know, choose your own adventure. If this happens, then this happens and that happens. But if you go this other route, this happens and this happens, so you know. So there's so many different things that can affect the actual core divorce case. That's actually not what we go through in the book, because I also didn't want to do a disservice to people by not having every possibility. Once you start down that track, you kind of want to, you know, cover every possibility. So what I really wanted to do was to educate these particular consumers, which are divorcing dads, about a lot of the issues that they don't really think about because they are men who typically don't carry that mental load in their homes, or because they've never been divorced before, or because of many different reasons. So I really what I really do is I talk about the process and what you can expect and what you should be thinking about. One of my favorite lines in the book is you can either pay for your kids' college education or my kids' college education, that is. Litigation is really very stressful and expensive And at the end of the day, there are unfortunately some clients that end up spending the equivalent of a college education on their case. So we love to see people settle And the best way to do that is by being an informed consumer, by being able to make sure that you have thought about not necessarily thought about everything, but thought about all of the different things that sometimes we find. You know clients six months and 12 months down the road go, but I didn't even realize that there was a connection there And some of it is not obvious, you know we have. What we did was that we took, that I took experts on things where these are the type of experts that I would consult with or that I would hope my clients would consult with, either before, during or after their divorce case, and I put them all together to kind of share that expertise so that my clients would be better prepared if they're going to be going through a divorce, be prepared while they're going through it And, if it's already happened, kind of some of the things that maybe you didn't think about, that you should be prepared for in, as you know, as time goes on, and some of the less obvious ones are we have an image consultant that talks about how you put your image out there, how you put your image out there for court, how you put your image out there when you're going to start dating again. Those are some of the things that are maybe not obvious and things that people would say wow, i really should be thinking about what I look like on Zoom or what my background looks like on Zoom, since we're still doing so many court hearings on Zoom.
But it's something that's important to think about. We don't always. We sometimes, as attorneys because we do this all the time think well, but it's common sense, you shouldn't be in your pajamas, sitting in your bed, court hearing. But you know, this is a really stressful process for a lot of people, and so sometimes what I think of is common sense. You're so stressed out and anxious about it that you may not realize crap, i really shouldn't be sitting in my pajamas, not my bed, during my court hearing. So sometimes it's about, you know, just kind of giving that reminder about some of the things that you really want to be thinking about, but maybe you haven't thought about.
\n\nStuart
\nSo many things are unpacked there, and this is why I'm so excited to jump on this call, because it's such the perfect example. We often talk about the books. It's not that choose your own adventure you're not going to get. You can't deliver all of the information for people to make all of the choices, whether it's a choice to work with you or a choice to do something themselves within the pages of a book. It's just infractical. But there's a perfect opportunity to start the conversation And what you've done is highlighted and picked out the examples of those conversations which are going to position you as their friendly advocate in a somewhat several-country-over-a-word, in a way that I'm obviously still a weekend note, in a way that's just positioned to you as their friend in the environment And whether, as people are listening to this and watching it, whether that's your business or whether your business is as kind of two-sided as divorce cases are, but still positioning yourself as the person who's offering friendly advice into a world that is way more complicated.
Because, just to say, it's common sense to you, because you're in it every day, and even if it's not the most complicated of things, like someone taking two seconds to think about it understands that you should probably put a shirt if they were going to court, then have the same approach of doing on Zoom, but people don't think about it because this is their first-time experience and get and then layer on all the stress as well.
\n\nIt's an example of providing that friendly information that starts the conversation. So I often talk to people about going deep on one subject rather than superficially broad, because going too superficially broad it seems a bit bait and switch into. Well. Now the next step is you need to come into the office. Well, obviously that's the case, but you want to present it in a friendly way. I think what you've done is walk that line very well between. It is a longer book than traditionally do and the breadth of subjects is maybe slightly wider, but you've still walked the line very well in providing great information at a level that sits well and doesn't feel bait and switchy into well. Here's a couple of throwaway comments, but the only answer is to come in and see us. There's really value provided in the book itself.
\n\nVanessa
\nWe are really big on educating our potential clients, and even clients that are not potential clients but who simply need more information. So we have so many videos and so many. We have an online course that can help walk a divorce and dive through a lot of the common questions that they ask. So we felt that this was a way of showcasing a lot of the things that they wouldn't even know to ask, that they wouldn't necessarily know to search for, because if they haven't been through it or if maybe their friends maybe they're younger and their friends haven't been through the same type of issues, maybe their friends didn't own a house or their friends didn't have some of the assets that they have.
So it might just be something that it is a broad swatch of topics so that you can kind of hit the different things that are sort of surrounded, from mental health to coaching, to image, to selling your house, to your bank accounts, to your credit, to your estate planning. There's really a lot of things that people don't always associate with a divorce or haven't kind of thought through that process, and that's what we thought to do is to continue that educational journey for people who are going through such a difficult time that sometimes you don't want to ask your friends, you don't want to ask people that you know you want to understand it better. So that's kind of what we wanted to make sure that we could provide that ability to get that information, send you to a place where you can get more resources and be able to really understand a little bit better about what you're getting yourself into.
\n\nStuart
\nI think that's a great point. We're often talking about I'm not oversimplifying it but helping people get over the barrier from not having anything to creating something that they can get out there. So we're sometimes really trying to help people go with a minimum effective answer, because otherwise they never do anything. We've got people who we talk to and talk to for years and years before they actually get started. But your example is a great one of someone who's coming in and we certainly got a lot of clients like this, but perhaps we don't talk about them enough.
You're coming in with a lot of assets and a lot of resources and a lot of directions that you can support people coming in to the divorce world, but for many different entry points whether it's, like you say, dealing with the kids situation now, or dealing with their asset allocation, or even down to the image and getting back out of their dating I think not only do you have the opportunity to show people, no matter which direction they came in, show people the next step and the next step in this idea of the minimum viable commitment, these small little steps before they become a client. You've got lots of additional resources to put them in that direction. We've also got the opportunity now to reach people in many different ways. So now that the book exists, running ads or having talking points about any of those six or seven core subjects that covered it just gives you such a kind of a tentpole asset to talk about in lots of different environments.
\n\nVanessa
\nDo you go, and then what I love is that, and what I love is that we gave you the information for these people, because maybe you do think crap, i do need to figure out what my image should be.
I need to do better, i need to, i want to get out there. We gave you the information for the image consultant so that maybe you know you already passed your divorce and you don't need an attorney to help you right now. But you kind of wanted to figure out what you maybe you didn't know or what you should have known And that might be a resource that would be really helpful for you. So we provide the contact information for all of the experts in our book so that perhaps, if you don't need an attorney, maybe you already have one. You know that's fine, but now there might be other pieces that you know that you could really use, and we provide access to those experts that maybe you wouldn't have known about or that you would have encountered. You know, because that's not your world. It is my world, but it's not your world.
\n\nStuart
\nAnd you giving them the access to people where there's a certain amount of I don't want to say vetting is not quite my word but you're talking with people who you know are doing a good job and have experts in their field, so providing additional kind of knowledge layer that the consumer, that the dad, might not know. Yeah, it's another. We could have shows. We should do more shows on this, actually, because there's so much to unpack on this one, that idea that you had of bringing in the experts to talk about their speciality again, in keeping it kind of the most simple version of it, we often talk about people using their own knowledge and putting that out there Did you initially have that idea that you wanted to bring in the other people to share their knowledge, or did you start from the position of I can easily talk about this much, but then there's the next layer out. So did you start from your own work and then build out, or did you start the project really thinking about building those experts in from the start?
Vanessa
\nSo this is not my idea. I'm in an amazing coaching group called Had a Manage, a Small Offer, and this was actually one of the things that they had suggested. I don't know that how many of us have actually picked up the idea and ran with it, but it was something that you know that was mentioned during a workshop And I just thought that was such a genius thing to put together some of my most trusted colleagues that you know that were sort of like a wrap around service that if I were to put, you know, my team together on how to help my clients outside of just practicing family law, these would be kind of the team members that would be able to bring to the table a lot of powerful abilities and knowledge and etc. So when I heard that workshop, i immediately started writing out a list of the people that I would want to collaborate with And almost everybody said yes.
And so we started from, you know, from the point of being able to provide that sort of wrap around service where I spoke about, you know the specifics and some of the different things that you need to be considering about during a divorce. But then we sort of wrapped around all the services with all of the experts, so it was one of those things that I thought would be a quick project. It did not turn out to be as quick as I had hoped, but I am super excited that we're finally we have it. I've got my copies that you guys sent me. I've ordered Amazon copies and we are getting ready to launch in two weeks.
\n\nStuart
\nAnd this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses and building the footprint you've got out in a wider world. This has been on that in a slightly different direction. So we sometimes talk about, once you have your book completed, reaching out to complementary, non-competing businesses where there's the crossover of clients, but starting this project from the other way round, of going out to that broader group. There's so many opportunities now And I think some people think they maybe only think one step ahead So they think, okay, writing a book for me, for my leads, and an immediate funnel. But the approach that you've got now establishes in a very subtle way you guys as the legal experts within this much broader world of all the experts that are involved, and the opportunity that you've got to share the book into those and allow those people to use it as marketing because it promotes you such a great, more strategic play rather than just the tactical writer book get leads.
Vanessa
\nYeah, i mean we have been collaborating, you know, with our co-authors and working to make sure that they're putting it out there, all of the local ones. One of our contributors is actually based in South Carolina, but all of our local ones are, you know, are coming to our book launch party. We've encouraged them to invite, you know, everybody that they know to put it out on their social media. And it gives them authority as well because now they're in a published book. So it's a, you know, it's really a great give and take where they're able to share that with their clients and their customers on a very specific, you know, kind of piece of advice that they can give their divorceing dad. So it kind of expands on that ability to sort of cross network with, you know, with many experts, while sort of being in a position of authority, because now we have, you know, it's a published book.
I am, i am very hopeful and expectant that we'll be able to reach Amazon bestseller. So, you know, we'll be able to kind of be able to share that with not just our potential clients, our current clients, people who just you know are in our community, but also all of the other co-authors and contributors with their clients as well. So it's kind of a really cool what I'm, what I'm hoping for, a really cool ripple effect.
\n\nStuart
\nParticularly because the book itself is so helpful for people. It's not such a, it's not a how-to book. It's not a book answering specific, narrow questions. It's broadly applicable to such a wide group, and whether the people themselves are going through the experience, the rules is one of those things. So we're only one or two degrees separated from someone going through it. So, knowing that it is such a friendly, accessible introduction to the world, it doesn't take many steps to imagine that orchestrated referral type setup of people remembering that it's available and then being able to give it to other people.
Vanessa
\nYeah, we're actually experiencing here in Florida. There is quite a few changes in the family laws that we're expecting our governor to you know, to potentially sign into law pretty soon. So if I would have made it into a very specific well, this is what happens, when this happened, i would have been dead in the water in potentially another month when our, when our statutes all potentially change, because there's a big, you know, circle of change that we expect is probably going to come when those laws change. So this way we've kind of provided you with the information that is very universal for Florida laws.
I only practice really in South Florida, which is Miami-Dade County and Brownwood County, but we can help on certain issues. We can help in all of Florida, like prenuptial agreements, things where the location as long as you have Florida law, the location doesn't matter. But the reality is that this is the useful book for anybody in Florida because it is based on what you know, what our laws are with respect to a lot of things, and it relates to things that are outside of the law, like I mentioned, you know, about selling your home and about your image, about your health, about your mental health, which are things that are not specific to and that's really to Florida. It's just sort of tailored to Florida because that's where we are and that's where my experts are.
\n\nStuart
\nYeah, and that's where I mean when we think about the business case for it there's Florida itself is more than big enough to create as big a business as you could possibly want. I mean, it's the language that you use in there. Even on subjects that are relatively generic and country-wide, there's still the way that you phrase it or the examples that you give. The language they use it's tailored to the county which sorry, the state, which just makes it more accessible and more of a smooth transition into that next step.
I was going to ask about something that's got in my mind but it will come back.
\n\nBut one of the things he did mention.
\n\nIt got pushed out by this idea of the law changes later, potentially later in the month or next month, even without the book being specifically written on, whatever the previous laws were or the new laws, the fact that the Rawson family law and the changes are going to be out there as a conversation to be able to topic, bridge off those changes and into the specific book. There's going to be a lot of people who are the subject's going to be front of mind now because of the changes And even though the book doesn't specifically cover those, to bridge off those conversations to have social media posts and videos and send emails out. I mean, you can imagine a scenario where sending an email out to all of the existing lists that you've got, talking in brief about the changes that are coming up or the fact that there are changes coming up, but hey, we just wrote a book that covers all of the fundamental laws or the basics just an opportunity to bridge in those conversations into something that you've got and starts that conversation.
\n\nVanessa
\nAnyway, i'm definitely hopeful that you know that is the conversation that we're having not as wide as I would have thought with all the changes that are coming, but it's definitely something that, if and when these statutes get signed in, we expect that all will be signed in. Even if most are signed in, it's going to, you know, to really revolutionize and change a lot of sort of basic concepts in family law here in Florida, and especially for men. I mean we're talking about they are going to. The biggest change that is being discussed right now is where a dad is going to be the legal father right from the child's birth when they're not married to the mom, and that's complete 180 from how it is now.
Right now our law says that a dad only an unwed mother is the natural guardian of a minor child. Now they're changing that potentially to the unwed mother and the father who has signed the birth certificate are the natural guardians of a minor child. So that's really revolutionary and it's really kind of catching up to what the reality is, which is that many couples now are not married And so that has caused a big issue for our dads where moms could just, you know, sort of have all the rights to the child and the father has to go to court in order to get those rights. So we do expect that those conversations are going to be amplified if those statutes, you know, pass. And we're hopeful that this book, although it's for divorcing dads, it's really for anybody. It is just that we want it to make sure that the people who really need it and who are really, i think, searching for this type of material, would find it and it would call their names, because it is the Florida man's guide to getting divorced.
\n\nStuart
\nRight And that's that specificity of the title to be able to stop someone in their day-to-day conversation.
So whether they're on Facebook or Instagram and they're seeing an ad, or whether they see a piece of material at one of the co-authors place of work, or an email that they send out, something that stops them, that says I want that.
\n\nthe talent that you've got is nicely specific enough to be very there's no ambiguity about who it's for and to be able to stop that conversation.
\n\nSome things that are springing to mind around the law changes and the fact that the book now exists.
\n\nthere's going to be a demand out there for experts talking about this thing, because news channels and other outlets have to fill a news cycle with something relevant to the moment, so they're going to be looking around for experts to be able to have a commentary on the things that are changing. So the fact that a book exists now reaffirms your establishes you even more as an expert, let alone the 11 years of history of the company and all of the people that you've helped. the niche set up of the title and the book and the fact that it is targeting it maybe not the group of people it's almost like the second group of people everyone kind of thinks I think primarily about the women in the situation which is maybe why you see dance court on the back foot but the fact that you are talking to these people. there's going to be a new cycle coming up in the next couple of weeks that is going to be desperately looking for people, So there's a huge opportunity to actively outreach on things like HR app, the journalists website.
\n\nLet's help a reporter out, right, exactly. So all of those opportunities. I mean the timing is almost perfect to bridge off some of those examples. You were talking quickly, a bunch of time. I know you're busy with the day-to-day work, not just chatting to me. So one last question quickly. then You mentioned that writing the book was the idea from the workshop and you jumped on it and ran with it very quickly. The process, as many things, is never quite straightforward as we hope. going into things, did you start the project and now that it's complete, the hope of reaching out to certain groups and engaging in a funnel type thought of reaching out to certain groups of people and engaging with them and then taking them on to the next step? Do you have that funnel kind of clear in your mind about how you use in the book and where you're leading people to the next step? Or is that kind of laid the track as it goes and kind of see what happens over the next few weeks now that it's out there?
\n\nVanessa
\nSo I mean we do have. We've created a lot of material for this specific potential client, for a divorceing dad, for that Florida man who's looking to get divorced, and so we do have a website DivorcingDadsGuidetoCourt.com which, prior to the book launch, sort of just gives answers, questions and refers you to other resources, but also adds you to our list if you want to be told when the book launch is happening. Now that we've got the book already on Amazon, we do have the information there so that people are able to directly go and purchase the book. Our hope is to be able to share this with our potential clients and be able to give them a resource that they may have not expected from us, and we will probably be at least initially sending that out to all of our potential clients and anybody who's basically requesting it, because it's important and I want to make sure that the knowledge is out there and, ultimately, that we are able to help people.
Our firm, our initiatives, are really intended to although it seems kind of strange for a family firm, but I'd love to see people stay married.
\n\nThat's typically not going to be something that I can help with once you get to me, but we have resources and we're trying to make sure that we're offering resources that are not just legal services. We've got a parenting support group that we offer as a free service to the community once a month. It's led by an expert therapist that's able to help parents, clients, non-clients, divorce, non-divorce anybody who's struggling with a parenting issue. We have that resource available for parents to be able to get that kind of support, with other parents having with the therapist and with other parents being available. We strive to really make sure that we are supporting not just our community of clients but really our community as a whole. We're aligned with a foundation that provides scholarships to underprivileged kids. We've got the Supreme Scholars Foundation. I created that after I lost my little brother during COVID. Our firm's mission is not only to impact people as they're coming into our doors but really impact in a much broader way.
\n\nStuart
\nI think that passion for helping people will come through in the book itself and just the approach of what you're trying to do. It's really a number of the conversations around just the tactics and the book creators out there. It's really great to have that conversation about the bigger picture and helping. I think that's what comes through on the podcast. A lot is everyone that we speak to, everyone that gets to the end of a project, everyone that's kind of being engaged enough and enthusiastic enough to come on a podcast is obviously passionate about what they do. The fact that you guys have got such a holistic approach to the family law and the relationships as a whole all that really comes through in the book and I'm sure it's going to be hugely well received by people Because the information it's difficult for people to get hold of and now you've brought that all together in one place Such a great resource.
Vanessa
\nDivorcingDadsGuidetoCourt.com. We wanted to make it simpler and easier to remember.
Stuart
\nDivorcingDadsGuidetoCourt.com. I'll make sure that we put a link in the show notes as well so people can get to it. The law firm itself. If people want to go directly to the law firm website, is there another place that people can go there, Or is that one the best?
Vanessa
\nSo once you're in Divorcing Dads guide to court, you will be sort of you know that's a page that puts you into our entire ecosphere, so you'll be able to schedule case evaluation if you need one. Look at our videos, look at our blogs, look at our team. We have an amazing team. I'm the head, but we've got four other associates here and we've got a team of 18 people really making sure that we are helping as many families as possible.
Stuart
\nFantastic. Thanks again for your time. I know you're super busy. I really appreciate sharing this with people. We'll make sure to put a link to the site and I really recommend people go through and A get a copy of the book and B check out the videos as well. It's a very holistic approach that you've got to support in all of the questions and answers that people might have. So thanks again for your time. We're looking forward to checking in a little bit down the track and see how it's going, but for now, thank you.
We had a great conversation about his business and how he was able to use the work he's done with clients and the questions they often have as inspiration, and how it's a culmination of years of his experiences and insights in business. He also gives us a peek into his new venture, Finding90, and how it ties in with his book's philosophy.
\n\nIt was also insightful to hear Rob talk about the power of iterative book publishing, and we discussed how the traditional publishing model can be laborious and costly and not allow for an iterative or adaptive process that comes from actually using your book to engage new clients.
\n\nFinally, Rob and I explore how to maximize the marketing of your book by creating downstream assets and amplifying the content in the most effective ways possible. We discuss writing for various social channels, bridging topical conversations to evergreen content, and reinforcing your book's message from the stage.
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SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/139
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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Rob Marr
\nGood thank you. Good to be here. Thanks for asking me to come and chat to you.
Stuart Bell
\nI'm excited and always good to intersperse the American accents with non-American accents so that I don't feel like it's just me. Rob's the author of the Lost 90% Fantastic book. Rob, why don't you give an intro into what you do and the company and we'll kind of transition a little bit into the book and what the plan there was?
Rob Marr
\nYeah, thank you. I suppose the book was a culmination of a series of thoughts and points I've been making in my coaching business over the previous kind of 10 years. I remember first talking about the ideas of training, coaching and mentoring way back in kind of 2009, 2010 and really feeling like when I spoke about it and how it related to people's competence and so on, it just seemed to land with people Like a light bulb came on. I was like, okay, this is good, this is a good way of explaining this. And then, you know, as many people do, i often aspire to writing a book and thinking about how it might be.
The business kind of developed and then it's actually kind of split into two different spaces now. So there's my space, the Rob Marr business, where people bought me to come and deliver workshops and seminars and sessions and there's coaching and mentoring and so on. And then there's our large, mostly multinational corporations, typically in the US and Canada, and then the other side of the business, there's a new company that we formed last year called Finding90, which kind of relates to the book, and the thesis or the idea is that most organizations are missing that 90% of people's development, which is mentoring and coaching, and often the training element is that it actually should only be 10% of the development journey is actually treated like 100% of the journey. So what we end up with this situation is like a lot of training is used to manage performance or because there's a shortfall, or it's a kind of we better do some training kind of a thing, and then ends up being this cliff edge scenario where you were given some training, the training is done, therefore the person has learned their stuff, but actually we all know in reality, just receiving information doesn't manifest any skills at all.
\n\nSo really I just wanted to kind of capture the idea that really we're doing a disservice to our colleagues in companies and corporations all over the world by not factoring in this mentoring and coaching piece. So really, that new business, finding90.com we're really being laser focused into a market that I've been working in for several years now with some really quite wonderful colleagues. Actually, our next book, with 90 Minutes Books, is going to be very focused on a particular niche that we want to use this incredible model to share some guidance, some suggestions, some structure to a particular market. So it's been a brilliant journey and it's been incredible to see something I've been talking about for so long, actually in book format, and being able to share that with other people.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nI think as well the opportunity to kind of crystallize your thoughts and your way of thinking.
We're doing a book titles workshop next week, which I need to send an email about, actually, but that idea of oftentimes it's that's the first step knowing kind of at a high level what you want to write about, what you want to engage people on, gets people thinking in the right direction.
\n\nBut the next level to that, if you can tie it into a model that you've got your particular way of thinking, i think it just amplifies it so much because not only are you talking about training and development, not only are you talking about mentoring the only you're talking about some of the corporate values and benefits of doing it in this way but the fact that you can tie it into your model so that when you are eventually speaking with people there's some touch points all the way through the book. It's not just at a high level on the same page, but really all the way down. The elements that you're talking about and the way that you present it, the language and the references that you make. It's almost like self-reinforcing. Did you find that came naturally? Was it was a pretty straightforward? you were building the book to the framework, or did you start with the bigger ideas and then you had to kind of retrofit the framework in it to make it really gel?
\n\nRob Marr
\nSo that's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it in that term before, but I think that's almost exactly what happened. I started out with kind of a very high level amount of thought, like a whole idea about what the book should be about. And then, even when I got my first draft through after talking to your colleagues it was I realized how much was missing, still like it was. Another kind of version of it came out of that, where I had to then sit down and do a little bit more work, a little bit more thinking, apply a bit more structure, and I think that was really helpful. And then what happened was we actually published the first version of that book and I'm a very iterative type of person, so I'll keep working at things and I don't tend to kind of do. I don't prepare very well, so I tend to execute first and then try, and you know, fix things out exactly, yeah, so in post-production.
So we put the book out there. And then there was a few things I was challenged by of some of those points you just mentioned here around how focused is the book? how clear is it on its message? does the branding align to the business? does it really is it a good foil for what I'm trying to sell? and I thought there was some things we can improve.
\n\nCame back to you guys again, i have to say the service has been incredible. Just we're really well looked after, great support. We changed the color scheme, we changed the font, we changed even the texture of the paint. Everything was kind of just moved on another level. And then, even from talking to yourself just as recently I think it was this week just even sharing some ideas with you and getting your expertise, but how we can use this book and then the subsequent book to really focus in on our markets. When I thought about that, it's interesting what I started out with was this really broad idea and then I realized that some of the challenges with that are then you've got to find a really big market to sell a really broad idea to and The value of then coming back almost like we're bounding off that Massive barrier and then coming back and to go well, who is this for exactly? and instead of, i suppose, the question, end of being well, who do I want it to be for? which then brought us it into kind of a more narrow market, and then again, as you kind of gave me some great guidance this week, you can go more niche. So it's been a really interesting process.
\n\nI thoroughly enjoyed it. I have to say it's I've been a bit fits and starts with it and probably would have liked to have executed it a bit quicker, but that was all on me. But that time period stew I don't know if you've seen that with other authors or not, but the fact it took a bit longer was to its benefit in a way, because the actual creation of the book was quite quick. I mean, that's the whole point of the business. That was good. But because that was quick, that was nearly the golden it. Because it was fast, it allowed me to then use the other bits of time Which you could spend laboriously pouring over the message of the content. It allowed That to happen much more organically. So it's been just a really interesting learning process actually.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYeah, and there's Parallels, i see, in the conversation that you were talking about with organizations. They think that the so my background is corporate. It kind of like 15 years ago now. So this idea that training is the budget to buy, to expire a user or lose it and the actual Being, the training being trained is 100% of the thing, which is less effective than thinking in the round. Similar with books, people.
My kind of oil, as I'm talking to people, is traditional publishing and I keep air quoting all the time. But traditional publishing as the counter and the most the least effective way for most business owners to create something that benefits the business. Because the traditional publishing model is this big, laborious project That's almost carved in stone. It's a one-shot deal. All the money is put into that upfront And there's no kind of limbic time to think about how it changes and varies or to dial in the message. It's kind of like branding. When you go out to like a branding agency, there's so much work put into this big effort to get From beginning to end all of the elements the logo, the website, the email, the social media But like there's such a big thing that it doesn't allow for this iterative process of. Hey, i think I'm starting here, but I won't need the opportunity to dial this piece in. Yeah, i'll kind of of getting the 80% version out there was quick as possible, and then I Keep making the.
\n\nI can't remember who said Colin Powell or someone like that, or General Schwartzkopf or something like that. They're saying that no plan survives contact with the enemy, or Mike Tyson's version of everyone's got a plan, until they get punched in the face. It's not actually get it out there when we start using it. If you go with a more cost-effective first version that gives you like Mental time and financial budget changes down the track, so much more effective for most people Because we're not writers. Our job isn't to write a book that then sells for money and The book being the project, the product. Our job is running the business and this is just a very effective Lea generation and rapport building tool. So the opportunity that it gives, just as you said, to get it dialed in Now it's the response been. So.
\n\nYou said that there was some feedback on the clarity of message in the first version. That feedback as it comes in. I think some people are kind of apprehensive of that And they almost want it perfect before it goes out there, whereas my view is definitely get it out there and then be collaborative with the audience, like this is a group We're all trying to be. We're trying to move the training game forward together. So I appreciate the feedback and, look, I'm trying to incorporate it here. Was that your experience, or did you have that apprehension that you wanted it perfect first time, and how did that?
\n\nRob Marr
\nThat's a good question, i think. When I started out, i think I thought I wanted it to be perfect the first time and kind of works towards that goal, but then I realized that it's not really realistic and I, when I thought about the book, i didn't want it to be. I mean, one of the attractive elements to this is kind of the length of the book. It's a very readable size and I, you know, I'm never going to sit down and write a measure what matters or a drive Daniel, I'm never going to be that research led individual I'm going to be using calling on my own experience, my customers experiences, real life scenarios, and I just want it to be like a Plain book is how I call it which is like pick it up on it, just go, I'll read that on the plane and you could probably raffle through most of it in an hour or two. Yeah, so that's why I wanted for it. So then, when I started getting feedback in, then I had another reread and there was bits I just wasn't happy with and wanted to change. That's been really beneficial and I think One of the reasons I wouldn't have tried to do it before was this idea of this heavy investment, like you said just you're in the previous point you made. It's like it feels like it's gotta work and That is a that's a massive amount of pressure to again, you've made it quite well. If you're a busy business owner and you're trying to run the thing, grow sales, manage your customers and so on, you haven't got really time to be an author in that sort of writer, in that traditional way of sitting down laboriously, capturing all of your thoughts, researching it, going to the libraries It's just not possible. So you're right, it's become a real calling card.
I've actually done a series of the series of conferences there in Canada just over the last couple of months, which is huge fun and just being able to buy a bunch of books myself, i bring them over, hand them out, and I was just really delighted with how people were grabbing them off the table and you know I was just giving the books away and and then people afterwards emailing me saying could you send me five copies, could you send me ten copies for our management team? and in some ways I won't know what they think of it because I'm no one's going to take the time unless I ask them to come back and feedback to me at this stage, but the credibility of having your message in a book and having you taking the time to do that is hugely powerful. So I think the feedback was helpful to getting it to a level where I felt super proud of it, and I am proud of it for what I wanted it to be. I'm not proud of it in context to eulises, but I'm proud of it in the context of did it capture my thoughts? does it share a simple message? is it easy to read? can someone pick it up and put it down and get a sense of what it is to work with me? or to some of the themes. It's been really powerful from that perspective.
\n\nSo I suppose I would have been more apprehensive about the risk of doing a book but then working with yourself, your team. That that kind of left me then because it's like actually, do you know what? this is a really brilliant way to get into the market. As you say, get the 80%, don't get it out there, get the reaction to it. Because then your enthusiasm for the next one is like you're like, yeah, let's do it again.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nYou just want to get on with it and start publishing more often right and the point that you made when you started talking about the individual niche, years and funnels and campaigns so much more an effective way of thinking about each book rather than thinking about, okay, I'm going to invest a hundred thousand dollars and two years of my life into the one thing that has to achieve all things, because the likelihood of that happening is much lower. But then also the effectiveness in a campaign if you've got a HR manager here and a training manager here and a head of department here and and the staff members themselves here. Those four constituents, the one course, the one piece of training that you provide, might actually be the thing that you this is the most beneficial for them to be delivered. But where they're coming into it, the start of their conversations you talked about the book is thinking about like a plain reading book. We talk about them in terms of conversation, starting books, because the job of work of starting those four conversations, the jumping off points and the perspectives and the examples are all very different.
So eventually having ones for different campaigns and whether it's as close as that or whether it's a little bit more diverse, like the different companies, the different organizations, different industries that you might be speaking to this idea of thinking about in the book as a conversation, starting point to a campaign, and I almost think that this day and age there's something more rapport building or relationship building with something that's imperfect.
\n\nI always wanted to call the company like practically imperfect books, because that kind of realism of, hey, we've got this model that works so well. I just wanted to quickly in and without all that overhead and the pomp and circumstance of a traditional book, just get this thought to you so we can start a conversation. It makes you much more accessible, yeah, and sets that tone that this is step one in a conversation. But obviously the next thing is we need to jump on a call or you need to check out this video where I'm going into more detail. So I think that's the second benefit as well the accessibility and the idea of building that relationship it's momentum too, isn't it?
\n\nRob Marr
\nand I think, when I think about the value of it from a content perspective I mean, I'm I certainly wouldn't be described as prolific on social media I think maybe if I post one thing a week or something, usually about one year today, these people, or whatever, it's pretty limited. But when I was talking to someone today about kind of getting some additional marketing support just to improve the output from zero to something, just even that as a content repository, like all these contables, all these thoughts, all these pieces of content, that it can exist within a book and you can capture all of that so quickly, and then there's nearly no limitation, is that these days, Stuart? so how far you can spin your content out into multiple different varieties of social media, and it's just incredible, even just verbally recording it and then having that as a singular podcast or having it as an audio file just to share with the client. It's the scope once you've documented it.
Stuart Bell
\nIt's just unbelievable it's actually quite interesting. I've got a draft email that I need to send out to you and a number of the other guys who I'm probably going to send it to people who've been on the podcast first, just because I've got a little bit more of a relationship, having been on the phone with you for 45 minutes. So I'm going to send it to you and some of the other recent people who've been on the show to say, okay, we always talk about ourselves as a marketing company, not a publishing company, and the books are just a very effective marketing tool. We give it all to you. You own it all. It's your stuff. We're just helping execute that as opposed to traditional publishing. But ironically, what we're pretty bad at doing is saying okay, now that you've got the thing, here's some marketing ideas around it. We obviously do strategy calls you kind of alluded to that before we jumped on a call but we don't create a whole lot of downstream assets. So last week I was brainstorming what those downstream assets might be. We've also got a podcasting company as well, where we help people do podcasts, and for the people who do the book and the podcast, there's even more material as that repository. But those individual assets, those social media assets. We're on the same page at the same time. It's always funny when that happens.
It's okay, I've got this thing, what can I do to amplify it in the most effective way possible? and I think for some people they come to it from the perspective of they're the people who wrote it. So you've got all of the subconscious stuff in your head, the stuff that didn't make it in the book, the bigger picture stuff that fills in the blanks. You've got the book itself, which is 10,000 words of actual detail and it's very easy to think about. Okay, well, i can, maybe I can do one post there on this and one video here on this, but then I've kind of exhausted it because I've talked about the one things. When the reality is from the receiver's point of view, the person on the other end of the social channel there may be seeing one in 10 things. If that would be a good result. So the opportunity you've got to write five things on there and five things on this and five things on this, the fear of repetition that we've got as the creators really isn't the same on the recipient side, because they just don't get the same exposure. So that amplification is very easy to generate a year's worth of stuff, a year's worth of evergreen stuff that can then be repeated. So you've got kind of like a perpetual cycle based on the content that you've now got And the unlimited opportunity to elaborate on an individual post or do what I'd heard I always call it topic bridging. I'm assuming I heard that from somewhere else, but the idea of topic bridging, so something timely might happen, but then you can bridge it into something evergreen that's in the book, that opportunity is really quite special.
\n\nThe other thing I was thinking, as you were talking about using the books, as you were speaking at different events, the opportunity to reinforce that from the stage. So so many people will say, okay, there's books at the back of the room, go grab a copy. Or there's the bags that people sometimes get, there's a copy in there. But if you're really trying to reinforce the piece that you're talking about again, do it in a classy way, not kind of cheesy, overregging it kind of way, having the book there and say, okay, everyone, now we're going to turn to page five. See what we say there. We talk about this being a key element. Get your pen out, circle it, because I know that you're going to leave.
\n\nWhen we talk today, we're here for 20 minutes. You're going to see 10 other people speaking, but these things are really going to make a difference when you get back to the office. So we're going to have fun exercise together. Circle this take two seconds to write in the blank space what you're thinking is the key thing to make a change so that when you get back to the office next week you're not thinking all you know what. I really enjoyed speaking to Rob, but what was it that he says? we're going to fall down the edge of the page.
\n\nOkay, now we're going to move to page 10, we're going to do the same, and you can make a joke about it as well, or not a joke, but you can do it in a fun way. Hey, look, we're coming up on lunchtime. You've listened to a lot of people speaking. You want to get to food. I want to make this as easy as possible. Today here in the room isn't going to be a game changer for your business. Monday, when you get back in the office, all of the emails are going to come back in. A week's going to disappear. A month's going to get disappear. So there's ways of like gamifying it a little bit, and it's always exciting or interesting when you see people thinking about using things in these different ways.
\n\nRob Marr
\nI hadn't thought of it in that term, because I suppose what one tends to do is you end up using a kind of a workbook scenario where, if you're running a dynamic workshop or you might use two or three slides to make a point. I use a lot of group discussion, a lot of dialogue, a lot of kind of role play and it's kind of pretty interactive. But I hadn't thought about how you could even reference the book's content in some of those situations to kind of go if you want to read a bit more about that, it's in here on page. That's a really clever idea. So yeah, that's interesting, thank you.
Stuart Bell
\nAnd there's two things I think that resonates with or relates to. One is for the audience making it more usable for them because, just like you say, being trained in the event is only 10% of it. The other 90% is the implementation and remembering to use these tools down the track. So leading into it and saying to people hey, listen, this isn't the first rodeo. You're professionals. This is probably the fourth or fifth one you've been to in the last 12 months. We all know that in 10 days from now, you might remember the fact that I had a beard and a slight Irish accent, but you're not going to remember what I'm saying in the moment And that's going to make a difference. So, like getting the more involved and the different learning styles, so it's not just being talked to, you can bring in a physical component to it And the other thing from your benefit, it reinforces your message. So it's not just that you're talking from stage and all.
That guy said it. So there's some authorities. In fact, he said it and he's on stage. But now, okay, he said it and it's written in a book And in a week's time I've got the book on my shelf and I can refer back to it. So it kind of subconsciously Those kind of persuasion type elements of reinforcing it I think there's an element of that as well Could be used for good or for evil. So we're going to use it for good.
\n\nRob Marr
\nThat's a great point. I really haven't thought about that, but that's a really good suggestion.
Stuart Bell
\nThank you, yeah cool You think you do is get people to rip the pages out, say, okay, we know that of a book, there's going to be two things in this book that are useful to you And the other thing to do is at the end of we're going to talk through some things at the end of it, i want you to rip two pages out there and the most meaningful, and then throw the rest of the book away. Like you can really take that, because no one else Everyone else thinks of books as things that are on a shelf and should be revered and not even page folded down. So really taking it to that extra level of, i mean, that would be a memory anchor.
Rob Marr
\nAnyway, yeah.
Stuart Bell
\nWell, business. I want to make sure we got some time to talk about what you do and the the opportunity that you've got to talk with people. So the idea of the book and being the 90% and separating that actual being trained from the benefit of training and development generally and mentoring, So the organizations that you're working with. Your accent actually I was thinking mine is still being pretty reddish, although I grew up in North Wales by really don't have a Welsh accent. It's similar. So you're in Ireland at the moment.
Rob Marr
\nYeah.
Stuart Bell
\nClients are mainly in the US and Canada.
Rob Marr
\nThat's correct, yeah, so about 80% of the people I work with are in North America. So I work in animal pharmaceuticals, in digital travel, marketing, so I do try to focus in areas which are resilient, i guess. So you know, a bad year in most of those markets is still an okay year, whereas some of the markets I would have perhaps started out in the waters to choppy. So I also recognize I needed to be in a bigger marketplace too. I think you know when you're, when you're working in Ireland it's a pretty small, small populace Yeah, probably about the same size as Greater Manchester, and you know it's a small market, that there's a great market. People are wonderfully friendly and very helpful and very open actually here in Ireland. But I just recognize, if I was going to be able to scale that business up and start this new business, that I wasn't going to be able to do that to the extent that I wanted to do in Ireland And I probably felt I'd moved on from the UK at that point.
I do love working, i genuinely love working in America and Canada. I find that the enthusiasm towards learning, towards growth and development, is just incredible, and the positivity, the attitudes towards learning, implementation of the learning. It's really a different experience altogether, and I think when I was talking to one of my coaches very early on about this change and I was describing this event that I run and it was just completely like you know, those career high moments where you go, that was just phenomenal experience. And he said, see, you've had a taste of how you want to feel. And I was like that's exactly what it is. Just have a taste of that And I want to. I want more of that on a regular basis. So that's the plan really.
\n\nI do a tremendous amount of video calls, which is one of the advantages of Zoom. I mean, you're over there and I'm over here, and it's still able to kind of communicate seamlessly. So that is a very effective tool. But still, i love I probably do 10 trips over there during the year And they're always highlights, they're always memorable experiences, yeah.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nThe people that you're dealing with. So the people that you're working with might not, in a corporate sense, might not be the ones who are paying you directly because it's coming through the organization. So do you typically work with the individual, the people who are I'm trying to think of a less craft way of saying it than to talk about the people who pay you. Do you pay by the organizations to train their staff or by the individuals looking for career development?
Rob Marr
\nIt's almost exclusively organizations paying me to come and work with their teams. So it tends to be a combination of events, so like a conference or a national sales meeting, followed up with some kind of individualized coaching and mentoring. But it's usually sponsored by the company. So they're paying for the sessions And it might be a couple of projects on the move. It might be like one a quarter or sometimes it's every month if they're attending a program or a workshop that we're delivering.
We tend to try and make sure that the cadence is more frequent for the coaching and mentoring, just to try and really transition the skills. The quarterly calls tend to be more problem solving. You know, like right, we've got this situation now. This is what we did last quarter, this is what we need to focus on this quarter. But no, it's this exclusively yeah, nearly exclusively the corporation. I tend to.
\n\nSome of it is by design, but I try to target companies that are international. So my clients literally range from Asia Pacific right the way across to the West Coast of the USA and Canada and kind of everywhere and everything in between. So there's a lot of diversity of people, of cultures, which I find fascinating. But it's the company have different objectives or the companies have different objectives, but my target is always to work with companies with great scope but also great internal similarity, so they could be usually typically multi divisional. So there might be there's a sales team here, there's a sales team there. There's a leadership team here there's. So the work is easily replicate not easily replicated, the people are all different, of course, but that there's synergy to it There's a channel I treat.
\n\nYeah, i think the way I think about it is the. They're wonderful channels because you get to start to learn the culture of the organization. You start to see what's the way they work, what way they operate, how that differs in different territories And it allows it to feel, even though you could be working to two, three, four, five years at a time, you can feel part of that team, part of that business And you know it's lovely sometimes I mean I've had it said recently you know you're part of the family, you're part of the group And it's to me that feels very gratifying, being not just as culture consultant, being dropped into do a piece of work. But when you're someone that people lean on to talk about sometimes talk about nearly anything and feel that you can be helpful in some way, it's incredible.
\n\nI'm sure that's not the core to go back to your original point, that I'm sure that's not the overarching core, but gold businesses want to grow sales, they want to develop leaders, they want things to move forward. But I'm so blessed with the people that I work with that their overriding motivation is always towards their people. That is That really for me. That would be a cultural misfit if the company wasn't. Ultimately, it's all about my team, it's all about my people, the investment in those people. I'm very privileged to work with companies that have that focus the global organization. They don't get it right every time, of course, they don't not saying that, but The drive is there to want to do a good job for their people.
\n\nYeah and then To be part of that is is incredible. So, yeah, they're nowhere better than North America in many ways, although, of course, there are exceptions. It's incredible companies in the UK, credible companies across Europe and into Asia, where they're, of course, exactly the same, but I find, on the whole, the culture in North America towards training, learning, development is, it's, untouchable.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nAnd sometimes I could say it's how you resonate with them and how they resonate with you. So the same company in a different location and just a few different, a few small changes. It might be difficult to put your exact finger on, but when you know when you resonate, you know when you resonate and that works well. Yeah so, as HR managers or sales team managers are listening, what's the best way of finding out more about you and what you do? Where can people go to find out more?
Rob Marr
\nWell, linkedin is a good place to start. I suppose I always talk to people about the best way to get me in, because You know sometimes it's hard with budgets and things like that. You need to find something that's going to add some value, and it's going to add some. You'll see something tangible at first of it. So what I'd encourage people to do first of all, think about what do we need to have a specific impact on in terms of skills, our team, our leaders, our sales. What behaviors are we trying to shift? What changes of behaviors? That is absolutely my sweet spot.
It's not just about delivering content. It's about actually manifesting a change of behavior in teams, in leaders and their attitudes and so on, and that's the work I love to do the most. So, first of all, have a think about where those changes might need to be, and then, of course, you could reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm usually pretty responsive on there with you'll find it less than 24 hours. I can shout out my mobile number if you like. I'm here if that's it. So that's 353-87-689-4928, and then email Rob Marr or rob at finding90.com. Any of those places are good to get hold of me, fantastic.
\n\nStuart Bell
\nWell, we'll put links to all of those in the show notes. So, as you're watching or listening to this, just head back to the show notes and In the podcast player or on the website you'll see the links there. And then we should definitely catch up Six months down the track and see how things are going and see what's changed in the in Rob's world.
Rob Marr
\nAbsolutely. I feel like I need to talk to you more often because you've given me two golden ideas in less than a week, Stuart, so I feel I might be tapping your expertise more regularly.
Stuart Bell
\nI tell you what I stopped on strategy calls, on podcasts. I say to people that Sometimes if I with you, it's probably fine because we've got kind of that accent, we're dialed in. But some people I say, if I start talking too fast because I get enthusiastic At any point, if you can't understand me, just stop me and I'll slow down Or I'll suddenly take a breath and realize that I'm starting to get a little bit horse and croaky. And the AI software that does the, does the transcripts for the calls, shames me because the email will come through and it'll say that The guest talked for two minutes and you talked for 48 minutes, so that Yeah, I'm definitely not sure of enthusiastic ideas.
So yeah, we definitely do that again.
\n\nRob Marr
\nWell, it's brilliant, it's great, It's great energy and creativity, so it's much appreciated and Generally it's been such a pleasure working with your team and just process book creation Has been just, it's been fantastic. So I'm looking forward to creating a few more books over the next few years with you, with you also.
Stuart Bell
\nWell, fantastic, and thank you as well. It's always good to catch up with people and Get to share their story a little bit more, and hopefully some of our ideas will spark other people as well and help them get their message out there. Well, it's fun with that, everyone. Thanks for watching, listening again. Make sure you check out the show notes for Rob's contact details and then, as always, we'll catch you in the next one.
It's a great conversation about the obvious and surprising benefits of having a book that reinforces you as the expert in your chosen business. Paul's passionate caring for his clients and the professionalism his practice brings to people, and his book is the latest way he's added to this expertise.
\n\nHe also shares some valuable insights on narrowing down your focus when creating a book that builds your business, making it more manageable for you and beneficial for the reader.
\n\nIt's great to hear his story of people's reactions to the book and how much value it's creating.
\n\nSUMMARY
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Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/138
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nPaul: Pleasure to be here. It's great to see you again.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's great. We just had a strategy call earlier this morning when we went through some things, so it's good to have this as a follow-up. Why don't we start by sharing a little bit more about what you guys do with the audience? Tell us a little bit about their practice and your story.
\n\nPaul: Yeah, sure I may put Iodress. I've been in practice a little over 40 years with two offices, one in Maryland and one in Virginia, and we have done the whole gamut of all-foot care that we see We've created a little niche on the things that we'd like to do and, as a result, we've been doing a lot of marketing with regard to those things, which has been able to expand those areas in our office. So myself and my associate have been utilizing multiple areas of marketing to take care of that stuff. So now we're trying to expand our resources at the same time.
\n\nStuart: It's such a great opportunity, once you've been in business for any period of time, to know what it is that you enjoy doing, what you've got some unique capabilities for what customers resonate with, rather than early days kind of taking on all-comers. So has that been a real focus of the last few years, to really doubling down on what you guys do well?
\n\nPaul: Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail right on the head.
\n\nCertainly, when you start you want to do everything because you know how to do everything and then after a while you find there's some special little areas that are just wildly enjoyable, that you get really good at and you just want to do more of that, knowing that there aren't that many people who take on those tiny little niches with the passion that we do. We've understood all that, we've embraced it, we've created protocols in our office so even if we have another doctor that would come in, they're not starting anew with learning how to treat these pathologies. We just have the protocols nailed so we get to the source immediately. My partner and I just love being able to create those things because we know that if we have proper protocols in place, good diagnosis, then we have a home run with the results, with what we do.
\n\nStuart: Right and just as you said at the end there, it makes a lot too different for the patients because for them, the fact that you could do 50 other things, they don't care about that. They've got the one issue that they're trying to resolve. So to have an end to an experience that really gives them the outcomes that they're looking for, but also the process going through it. It's a smooth, seamless experience, such a better pair for the patient.
\n\nPaul: Yeah, maybe we like to create a plan. So when you walk in, you're going to get a full evaluation diagnosis, with all the modalities that we need to get the proper diagnosis. We then have a plan in place. We don't just wing it. We just certain things that work, certain things that don't work. We're not going to waste your time because you're in pain when you come here. So we don't want you to be in pain for very long. We want to get rid of that and heal you and have you go on with your active lifestyle. So, as a result, again, people know when they come in here, they're going to leave here knowing full well what we're trying to do. They're an active role in the process and there are no questions that they have when they leave because, basically, they know and understand what we're trying to do.
\n\nStuart: Right, it's not your first rodeo. You've been through this before and know the types of questions that they would have on their mind, I guess, even if they don't necessarily know or know how to articulate them. So that ability to make people feel at ease, clearly articulate what the next step is again just makes for a better end to an experience. And, as you said, as you bring on new staff, I guess, whether that's doctors or the admin staff that are there as well it's just so much easier to plug them into the process to make sure that it's operating as you want it to operate.
\n\nPaul: Yeah, my favorite moment is right when we're finished with the appointment. I'll always say do you have any more questions for me? And then there aren't no more questions because we covered everything. Especially those people who come in with a list that they've written down of all their questions and they go over them again. They go no, no, I got it all. Very important moment that we can have, knowing that we've covered that all for them.
\n\nStuart: Right and putting them at ease and knowing that you're doing a good job for them. It kind of ties across into the book subject. So what I really love about your book is the niche nature of it. We often talk to people. One of the early decision they need to make is picking this single target market, and if you can narrow it down, it's more easy to create the book. It's more easy to create the follow on protocols around the book and how you're going to use it. It's easy for the readers to identify that they want the answer to this problem and then the call to action, the next step, is much more obvious. So do you want to talk a little bit about the niche that you picked and what was it that led to picking this book as the one to do now?
\n\nPaul: Sure, I mean we've done a couple of books, but this particular one, as the title says this my damn toes hurt, and what does that mean?
\n\nSo in our office we've created, and I've done, a lot of experience with utilizing minimally invasive surgical procedures to correct a lot of the deformities that we see in the toes that don't require one to go to the hospital, that don't require extensive reconstructive surgery, that we can do in the office under local anesthesia. And, having taken that knowledge and information that I know that I'm one of the very few that do these procedures, but knowing that not everybody needs surgery, so there was a mindset of let's inform our patients, or people who are prospective patients, or people who may never be patients but are living somewhere else, who have this problem, that they now have a resource to understand in simple terms of what the problem is. Here are the diagnostic steps to figure out what's going on and here are the things that can be done, from the most simple techniques to something that we can then basically surgically fix so that it's a permanent solution.
\n\nStuart: That idea of understanding that there's lots of different options and your customers clients, patients ultimately live within that group. But by delivering them the valuable information, you're also able to deliver it to other people who either will never be customers because they just don't need it, or might not be today, but they might be in a year's time. That really opens up the opportunities to deliver that value and create something that leads people on a journey from my damn toes to on the outside and identifying the problem through to some steps that they can take themselves to. Okay, now the next step is you need to come in. Was it difficult to identify which bits to include in the book and which bits not to include? Or, from the experience, was that pretty straightforward?
\n\nPaul: Well, I think, from my knowledge of what we were trying to get across and my experience with treating this particular problem, that I had an idea of what I wanted to say. But obviously, with 90 minute book personnel the fabulous people that you have there together we were able to collaborate and figure out a way to put it all into a concise order that we can then just go through the process of getting it out there. So, putting it down myself I certainly had it out there as an outline, but actually putting the words to paper, putting it into a readable format that's where you know the 90 minute book people came in were immensely helpful making that happen.
\n\nStuart: Appreciate it. It's almost like there's a benefit of not being domain experts, because we can come into it knowing the framework, knowing what we want to create as a scaffold, as a structure, but not get caught up on the details of the actual words or needing to know what comes first A, b or C. We can ask the questions from an outsider point of view, from a kind of an uninformed point of view in a way, but that allows you to answer the questions which are a little bit more straightforward and basic, but that allows you to structure it in a way that is, in a way that moves the conversation forward from this idea of the title through to the call to action. I know from my own perspective, even writing the books that I've written as the kind of insider and owning the company, I still get wrapped around my own head in terms of which words go where, because you've got all of this assumed knowledge or subconscious knowledge that it's sometimes difficult to separate out. So, even going through the process myself, I still use the guys to go through that process and make sure that it adheres to the scaffold, which means that it gets done, as opposed to it being an idea there for years and years but never actually making it onto paper.
\n\nSome people have a concern that it's too. They don't want to be too basic and they're worried or get hung up that they want to include more and more or go in at a higher level and more detailed level, as if they're writing for kind of academic peers rather than customers. Was that something that was easy to get past as well? You had a been in business for 40 years. You know the customer conversations that are going on, so was it easier to keep that framework in mind?
\n\nPaul: Very much so, because my history with dealing with people every day is as much as there is a small segment of the population that want to know all the minutiae and all the details they really care about is just fix the thing. I'm happy if you want to tell me all the information, but I don't need all the information. So what I realized is that those who want all the information, we share it. We go through detail in the office, we go through all the X-rays and everything that we do, but I realized that I don't need to get that detail out there because there are definitely other places where people can get it, but I wanted them to hear it from me and how I am going to deliver it. So my feeling was if you could just keep it as simple as possible yes, you have, you might have this problem now.
\n\nIf you don't, you may know somebody who does. If you don't, at some point in your life you and or somebody you know may have this problem. So let's keep it really simple. It's as if saying all right, I have this problem. Gee, this guy is an expert in the area. I'm going to call him and then I want to see what he has to say about my potential, he has to say about my particular problem, and then we get the details when we make the evaluation and the examination. I don't have to put that all in a book. I think at that point I'd be losing more people than I'd be informing.
\n\nStuart: Right. It's such a great point, like in. It's a drive and I learned to drive in the UK. Everyone drive, stick shift across there. It's almost like looking for a driving instructor and everyone providing information on how the clutch works in a car. It's very relevant. It's far too detailed and down the track. There's a time and a place for that. But the job of work of these books is to start a conversation and that conversation naturally goes elsewhere. The job of work isn't to be the academic novel or academic piece on this particular discipline. It's not to be a novel. We're not trying to. People aren't getting a copy of the book to be entertained. They want the answer, the outcome, and it's almost the confidence and certainty that you're bringing by putting your perspective, keeping it straightforward and simple and friendly and accessible for people. It's that good feeling that you're instilling and giving people a clear call to action. That's the thing that moves the conversation forwards, not trying to overwhelm people with numbers or knowledge or medical background.
\n\nPaul: Yeah, I mean I think you've had a great analogy with that. You know, sandra should vehicle is that there's a time and a place for that Getting somebody in the door knowing that they have a problem. Sometimes you'll scare somebody away with too much technical information and all they really need to know is I found the place to go. I'm happy that there's some information out there. I understand what Dr Ross's thought process might be. When I get there, based on what I'm reading in the book and I'm happy to go in, I trust that I'll get great care. So that's actually the only one to get across that. Where do I turn? Where I as a patient turn to get the care for a particular problem, but I don't know where to go Right, but I think, more so with the medical field.
\n\nStuart: there may be any other A lot of fields, like lawyers and teachers. There's a stress associated with those businesses that the people feel because they want the outcome of their case or they want their kid to be taught well. But with the medical field having such a visceral, painful problem, as well as something that you need sorting out, it just adds an extra level of emotion to people's decisions as well as the actual resolving the problem in the first place. You said something when you were talking there about when people read it. They get a feel for your perspective and what your approach is.
\n\nThat's something that doesn't come up that often, but I think it's a very valid point that as people request a copy of the book, they've got some certainty and confidence that you're the person to go to. But when they open the door and step in the office for the first time, you also know that they've read the words and they're coming in with a certain expectation, or coming in with a certain expectation, knowing your take on things. So if there was anything in there that they really disagreed with, they wouldn't walk through the door in the first place. So it must make the. I guess there's an anticipation because we're in early days now, but there's an anticipation that when people do actually open the door and step in, you kind of singing from the same hymn sheet, so you kind of they're on the same page as you are. So that must smooth the journey a little bit as well.
\n\nPaul: Well, it does mean, you know the intent isn't to like hide anything, it's just more of an emotion I want them to have. Not only can I trust this guy, can I trust this office. I already have expectations of what's going to happen because I have information from the book so that when they walk in the door they're not surprised. That being is more confirming what they've read in the book and then they know that they're in the right place. And then I know, when someone has comes in, has read the book, that the transition to doing whatever needs to be done, even if it's just minor, conservative care, they know that it's not all about coming in and what we want to do is push surgery. That's not the intent.
\n\nThe intent is here is a chronic foot problem that we see a lot of all day long. There's so many complications that occur if you ignore it that I'd rather just catch it early, treat it quickly, manage it conservatively if he can, knowing there's some really minor in office procedures that can be done to address the problems. And no matter what is no matter what. The problem is that you're confident that we can take care of it.
\n\nStuart: I often think that it's.
\n\nPeople sometimes know what the right thing to do is, whether it's taking some different physical activity themselves, or whether it's some exercises that they need to do, or whether they know ultimately, that they need some surgery or bigger interaction.
\n\nBut it's often difficult for them to get to the point of okay, well, I'm actually going to do it now, so that the knowing that it should be done in the doing get two different things. It'll be interesting to see over time as a lot of these things are explained or touched upon in the book. If you've got the opportunity to, when people come in for that meeting and you've got a copy of the book by the side and you can point to it and say, as we said here, remember, this is the thing that we need to do now. It'll be interesting to see whether that's reassured or not. Reassuring what sort of looking for reaffirming, in a way, because now they've read it themselves, they're hearing you say it, now you're pointing back to the thing that they'd already read. I wonder if, psychologically, that will kind of get them to the point quicker of actually taking the action that they need to take, because it's more reinforcing.
\n\nPaul: I think the answer to that is yes, but you'll have to realize, sometimes when people come in for any kind of medical something, there's a bit of anxiety and a bit of not hearing everything. That one thing, and that's why, getting back to the book, it's there. They can resource it that. Yeah, this is what we said based on what you read. So it just confirmed that. So you know as much as it's just another mechanism of affirmation that whatever problem that you might have, specifically your, you know, your toe issue, we got it. You know it's very comforting to know that they can go back to this book. See, put the book with a live human being in a face. That you know. Again, I think you hit him down the head. But it's more reaffirming that when they do come in and we do present in an organized fashion what's going on and create the plan, yeah, that confidence is there and it's the transition to doing whatever we need to do is very, very easy.
\n\nStuart: Right. One of the things he said there is putting the face to the words. It's something that we don't have such a personal, not biasism like word. But the credibility and authority pieces of the book puzzle is something that I don't talk about much because I think it's very overtalked about out there. So I probably do a slight disservice by not talking about it enough just as a reaction to what's out there.
\n\nBut this idea of credibility and authority that comes along with being the author, I know we've done podcasts with people in the past who said not quite that they get stopped in the street or airports, but it certainly happened from time to time.
\n\nWhere there's I actually get up with the podcast, I'll talk to people and they'll say I've listened to all of the podcasts. I was listening to you talk on such and such a podcast and my immediate reaction is anxiety because I think, oh, what did I say? But so far, 10 years in, I'm pretty consistent on what I say. So I guess that's good. But there is an element of people are looking for that reassurance that they're going to a place that is reputable, that the doctor knows what he's talking about, that there's a good outcome that other people have had, so actually reading the book and then meeting the person that wrote the book, I would imagine there's not a small element that adds to the overall good feeling that people have when they walk through the door and see the person. His face is on the back of the book that they wrote.
\n\nPaul: Sure, I mean. I mean it's no different than if I was reading a book about something and I actually got a chance to talk to the author and understand where they're coming from and feel confident that what I was reading wasn't Just secondhand information. That's truly what this person believes and has put a lot of thought into it and has a lot of experience into it. So it puts it out there as being, you know, the authority in this particular entity. So there is that comfort of putting, I think, putting a live human being to the written words, even though there is a photograph on the cover which helps. But you know, once you put that all together, take all the pieces of the puzzle, you can actually touch it, feel it, have some texture to it. It makes it a better outcome in whatever we're doing, because that sense of uncertainty seems to be eliminated when they walk in the door.
\n\nStuart: Right and that, I think, is so much of the puzzle that we're trying to solve.
\n\nWe know, as business owners have been in business for many years, that we can solve the people if only they get out of their own way and let us do the thing that they need to do Now. Obviously, there's a lot of nuance to that and some more legitimate and less legitimate reasons why people aren't ready to move now. But all of these, when we were talking earlier today on the strategy call that we did, you described as arrows in the quiver. The book is now another arrow in the quiver of ways that you can help people get over that hurdle, to walk through the door and solve their problem. I think that's a great analogy for people to think about, because it's not like this is the be all and end all. Having a book now isn't going to magically solve all of the problems, but it just creates so many more opportunities to allow people to make that decision themselves that this is the right place, this is the right time and this is the right action to take in order to overcome the problem that they've had for a long time.
\n\nPaul: No, I agree with that, and you can use that another arrow in the quiver if you'd like. I'll let you use that. I'll credit you for sure. I appreciate that. But they agree, you can't rely on any one thing, any one piece of marketing, to be it.
\n\nSay I'm going to spend X number of dollars on this piece of marketing to do X, Y and Z and it doesn't work Well, doesn't mean that doesn't work. Maybe it wasn't the right thing at that moment in time or he didn't do along enough. We didn't do it well, there's so many reasons. So it's an understanding of you know the true marketing scenario of all the mechanisms that are out there to market who you are, what you are, what your services are, what you're trying to do. So you know knowing what we do here and hitting all the areas that we can hit.
\n\nThis was another mechanism that I just wanted to have that out there, not only to show a sense of understanding what I think patients need to know, but having them to have physically see something that their doctor took the time, energy and effort to put the information out there in a book and not just copying somebody's website or putting information they got from somewhere else. This is my proprietary information that I put out there that makes a difference to them. So this, in conjunction with all the other things that we do, just as I guess, yes, another arrow in the quiver of the many arrows that we have to get the word out.
\n\nStuart: Right, you said an interesting point there about the fact that their doctor has taken the time to put this information together. One of the book blueprint scorecard mindsets that we've got that talks about the kind of eight building blocks to a book. One of them in there is this idea of value-driven content, which is obviously what our framework is built around, and it's this idea of what we don't want is kind of we used to see in the early days not so much now I think we're better at beating out of people, but what we used to see in the early days is people very kind of secretive about their process. They want to give enough information to tease people that there's a solution to the problem, but then the bait and switch at the end of it are you need to jump through this hoop in order for me to give you the rest of the information and this idea.
\n\nI think it's as the world has evolved and now there's even more information out there than there was five years ago, certainly 10 years ago, so people are less kind of trying to hold on to it and more understanding that they need to share that information. But back to your point, the idea that it's you that's pulled it together with your framework, with your take on a particular situation, with the love and care that you've got to help people resolve their problem, all packaged together in a book which has its own authority, and there's an element of gift giving. To receiving and giving a book, it really makes a difference above and beyond just the packaging of some words on a piece of paper in its own right. The way that it's bundled together, I think, carries a lot more of the emotion than, like I say, just a blog post or an email would do.
\n\nPaul: Well, it's really fascinating in that I have the books displayed in each of the treatment rooms in both of our offices and the few minutes that a patient is waiting before I get into the room, obviously they see it and inevitably it's this proud moment of them of saying see, dr Ross, you wrote that book. That's amazing, I'm so proud. I mean they're proud of that. They're going to a doctor who is now creating to be an authority into a certain niche of what they're coming for. That part is really pretty special. I didn't expect that at all. I looked at it as everybody else, but actually the people who are here, they'll love it. They're very excited to say that my doctor, I'm going to the doctor who wrote a book.
\n\nStuart: Right, there is a again we talked about this briefly before the kind of psychology of why people refer. But there is an element of it's a family and people want to be part of the family that they can be proud of. And you're the fact that you've written something and created it as a book and it's published and it's out there physically in the world. There's a kind of I don't want to say like a reflected light, but there's a certain amount of pride that they can have, that they know and have known for years the person, they knew you before you wrote the book. It kind of builds that sense of family and community and, silly as it seems and there's certainly ways that could be used for bad, but using it for good, it just brings people into the fold and allows them to be part of the biggest success in healing people.
\n\nPaul: Yeah, I mean it's and you know it's. You know I joke about it with them. Yeah, I wrote the book. Yeah, I'm going to be going on tour in a week. I'm having a lot of office hours, you know, and they look at me like really, no, not really, but you know, be kind of fun. That's not going to ever happen. But the warmth with which it's being received by the patients are in the office. This is outstanding. So I can only imagine what might be transpiring with anybody else who might see it and has that same sensation. Knowing that, again, I'm going to the doctor who wrote the book on the problem that I'm having a problem with, right.
\n\nStuart: So something that amplifies so I cut you off a little bit there. I was just going to say it is definitely something that amplifies the overall success. So, like you were saying, it's not the only arrow in the quiver of the marketing tools you've got. It's not the only empathy building tool or relationship building tool that you've got in the overall practice. This is a reflection of everything else you do the care that the reception staff have for people, the neat and tidy nature of their practices, the fact that you've got clean equipment, that the office is nice and bright, that you follow up with people to check in to make sure that they're OK after the surgery or after the treatment. It's not a fully rounded, holistic approach to taking care of people.
\n\nPaul: Well, it's no different than I think of myself as a patient when I've gone into a doctor's office and, from the moment I have to make an appointment to the moment I leave, what is the entire experience about? What's the phone call Like? What's their website like? How's the person who's answering the phone? How's the person that's greeting me? How's the person that's putting me into the room? How does the room look? What does the office look like? How's the furniture, their pictures or their old magazines? What's the doctor like? Is he driven?
\n\nI mean, all of this is the experience Knowing that you can choose to go to any other doctor on the planet. Why do you choose me? And I want you to know that you chose me for the right reason, so that when you leave here you can say that was an amazing experience. I'm going to tell all my friends about that guy and about that office and the way we treat everybody, because that's really where it starts. Not treating a disease or an entity, you're treating a human being and treat them the way you want to be treated, and the foot problem becomes secondary.
\n\nStuart: Right yeah, Treating people like human beings. I think that's something that everyone can do well to remember. It's not non-averse, are certainly not the people that we deal with in the book. Business. Non-averse are in a transactional business. All of us are in the relationship business. It's just their end product is different for all of us, but it's all relationships.
\n\nPaul: Oh yeah, I mean. I always say you want to see what an amazing relationship is like is walk into any four seasons, go to Disney World and see how they treat everybody. And that's what I want to be treated like. And I want my patients to have that same experience when they're here, knowing that they choose to come here and not forced to come here. They choose to come, so I want to be sure that they know that they chose properly.
\n\nStuart: Right, I just want to say thanks for your time in coming on the sharing. These podcasts always go so quick. I think I've ended each of the last eight or nine podcasts by saying to someone hey, we'll have to definitely check back in in six months and see how it's going. So thanks again for your time. Before we go, just want to make sure that people have got access to you and know where the practice is if they want to come visit, Obviously if they're in their area or if they just want to check out what you're doing. So what's a good place for people to go to find out more?
\n\nPaul: Sure, you can do one of two things. You can certainly give us a call at 301-656-6055. Or you can check us out on our website at your yor podiatrycentercom.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, I'll make sure we've got a link in the show notes for all of these, so, as people are listening on the podcast player or looking on the website, there'll be links straight across. Well, just thanks again for your time. It's really inspiring to listen to people who have actually pulling the trigger and doing this and using it in a way like you are. And, as I say, if you're up for it, we'll check back in six or seven months and see how it's going.
\n\nPaul: Oh, that's my pleasure spending the time with you today and we'd love to have that chat again in six months.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Okay, everyone. Thanks for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Paul Ross, Founder & CEO of The Podiatry Center, with clinics in Maryland and Virginia, about his latest book 'My Damn Toe Hurts,' and how it's helping him dominate another niche within their business. \r\n\r\nIt's a great conversation about the obvious and surprising benefits of having a book that reinforces you as the expert in your chosen business. Paul's passionate caring for his clients and the professionalism his practice brings to people, and his book is the latest way he's added to this expertise.\r\n\r\nHe also shares some valuable insights on narrowing down your focus when creating a book that builds your business, making it more manageable for you and beneficial for the reader.\r\n\r\nIt's great to hear his story of people's reactions to the book and how much value it's creating.","date_published":"2023-05-28T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/ea745c52-cd89-4265-8739-b3f6c7c05ee2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21566416,"duration_in_seconds":1787}]},{"id":"9909e497-bbcd-497c-b0b8-d8f692844902","title":"Ep137: Transforming Commercial Spaces with Jim Richardson","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/137","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Jim Richardson, who runs MKR Building Solutions, a concierge service for commercial building owners and managers in the Boston area. \n\nJim shared his story of developing his business from giving away or outsourcing services for free, to having an in-house team and a network of subcontractors he controls to not only retain that revenue, but also ensure the same quality of work is done in all jobs he manages.\n\nWe talked about the importance of developing a marketing process that works while he's busy. His new book is part of a package to send to potential customers that gives them an understanding of what MKR Building Solutions does and how it can help them before having a one-on-one discussion. Something that starts the conversation and predisposes people to want to work with you.\n\nThis is a great episode with someone who has a clear plan to dominate thier niche, and a book that supports this goal.\n\n\nLINKS\nJim Richardson\nMKR Building\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/137\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n","content_html":"Jim shared his story of developing his business from giving away or outsourcing services for free, to having an in-house team and a network of subcontractors he controls to not only retain that revenue, but also ensure the same quality of work is done in all jobs he manages.
\n\nWe talked about the importance of developing a marketing process that works while he's busy. His new book is part of a package to send to potential customers that gives them an understanding of what MKR Building Solutions does and how it can help them before having a one-on-one discussion. Something that starts the conversation and predisposes people to want to work with you.
\n\nThis is a great episode with someone who has a clear plan to dominate thier niche, and a book that supports this goal.
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/137
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
\n
Today on the Book More Show, I caught up with Dean Jackson at the studio to talk about the impact of AI on book writing and explore how AI, rather than 'doing it for you,' can help amplify your ideas and opinions while still providing the psychological benefits of having a book.
\n\nAI can be a fantastic tool to quickly split-test different parts of your broader idea to find the one that resonates with your audience, but we talk about why establishing a unique perspective is more important than ever in a world where generic AI-generated content is on the rise.
\n\nIt can help create an experience that meets your reader's attention requirements, and we discuss how 'Actual Intelligence' paired with artificial intelligence can be the rocket fuel that gets your idea out there fast.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nDean:I'm good the specialist of guests. Specialist of guests, I like it.
\n\nStuart:We were at the house last night watching some of the abundance 360s and a lot of the conversations was around AI.
\n\nDean:AI. What now?
\n\nStuart:Yeah, who Chat what? Yeah Chat GPT, okay, not TP, okay. So the level at which that conversation was happening was obviously way in advance of what we're talking about, but still it's on everyone's mind Chat, gcp. No need to survey any content, the robots are going to do it all for us. So I've got some opinions on it. Tell me, I'm sure you have.
\n\nDean:Yeah.
\n\nStuart:I've been doing recently with people who have written books. A lot of the podcasts with guests have written books, but the thing that is different is that it's their opinion. So a lot of the AI options I think around the baseline just moves up. It's no longer as difficult to think of ideas because a robot can give you great ideas. It's no longer difficult to think about the first 50 to 60% of something because it's all, it's the facts, it's the information that's out there. But I think the real opportunity for people is it almost goes back to a grand conversation. It's the opportunity to establish their opinion, why their take on it is different and the robots that you can help support that and even create some of the downstream material or add to some of the downstream material.
\n\nI think the real difference, the real opportunity that people have got, is to establish their perspective. Our perspective on writing books very specific, very different from other people. I don't think anyone would mistake our view compared with other peoples. The AI can help support some of that message, but still establishing that fact. The second point is just the fact that other people aren't going to think that way. They're going to be looking for the low hanging fruit, the easy option of just pressing a button and churning some stuff.
\n\nDean:I think everybody thinks this magical thing that this chat GPT is going to just write this book for me and everything is magical. But it actually. If you look at what, if we look at the landscape of what we do at 90 minute books. In the effort of creating a book, it's created in a way to be the most effortless way to create a book, it's actually less work to create a book using our AI process actual intelligence, real people doing the establishing what the outline is.
\n\nStuart:Do you want to outline that? It's got to be lining the sand for that as a phrase.
\n\nDean:Well, it's really. I think that's the difference, though, right Is that, if you look at the job of work for the author, the entrepreneur, the person who let's just back it up all the way to, why would we even be doing a book in the first place? And the reason that we're doing a book is to turn invisible prospects into visible prospects and to educate and motivate people so that they think the thoughts that we need them to think, understand the things that we need them to understand, see examples of how the things that you're talking about actually work, so they can draw the conclusion that working with Stuart would be a good idea. That's the job of work that we're hiring the book to do in the first place right If we sum it all up in a nutshell Now.
\n\nWhat that comes down to then is if you're the author, you're the entrepreneur, you've got all the knowledge, you've got everything that you want to say and it's just a matter of extracting it in the least intrusive way, least burden of time on you to extract that from your brain, get it into a digital format.
\n\nAnd the fastest bandwidth way to get your thoughts into a digital form, which is what we need, is through your mouth into a recording device. That's what it is. As soon as we record something that you've turned your thoughts into words into a recording, now it's digitized. We've got the audio, we can get that transcribed, we can turn that into a transcript, we can edit it all without you having to do anything. It's such a you know, if you lay it side by side, it's really the easiest way. It's easier than computerized AI, because you still have to then Prompt all of the stuff and you're still counting on. I think, ultimately, the big decision you have to make is as the book I'm trying to write. Am I trying to write a book report book, or am I trying to write a field report book?
\n\nRight and the difference is that a book, report, book, if all you're trying to do and we've used AI to do Books like that we just created a Medicare guide. That just it's all facts. It's all things that are already known and available on the internet. We're compiling it, putting it in a way that is Format. It doesn't we're not counting on any entrepreneur to give their you know, objective.
\n\nInformation it's factual stuff, right. So if you're, there's many things that that would fit for. If it's you know how to's on a certain thing that's already known, tutorial type of things, you could get Chat GPT to write those kind of books. But I call them definitely book reports because it's just researching and Compiling and formatting information that's already known and available, no guarantees of how factually accurate it is. We've seen, right, that's you got to. Still got a double check.
\n\nYeah, everything and that requires a GPT tickler to prompt the right things that you want. It's not just hey, write me a book on this. It's, that's not as easy as that. But if you want to write a field report which is sharing your subjective experience based opinion, council advice, guidance based on experience in real-world situation, with supporting stories that only you have had, that's not what a AI is going to be able to do. You need capital, A I actual intelligence to do that, and that's where the 90-minute book process comes in.
\n\nStuart:And that's the difference going forward as well, as more and more people think, looking for that silver bullet of the easy option, the number of book, report, books is going to increase because it's an easy option.
\n\nDean:I think I don't remember the numbers, but the number of chat GPT written books that are credited. These are ones that are credited in the Amazon store as a author or co-author. Chat GPT have hockey sticked.
\n\nStuart:Right.
\n\nDean:Well, I guess that's. It's only logical that it's hockey stick. It's only been three or four months that it's even been an option, but that number is going up, up. There's going to be a dearth Is a dearth, a big number of them.
\n\nStuart:Is that? Yeah, it's supposed to be glut Glut. I don't know. I don't know.
\n\nDean:That's it so any grammarians on the listening to this right now. I've always wondered what is a dearth compared to a glut? I'm going to assume I think that a dearth means it could be so many of them, an abundance of them.
\n\nStuart:One of those words now we're saying it more and more. One moment please.
\n\nDean:Live. Hey Siri, what is a dearth and distinguished American painter? No, that's not what I'm looking for.
\n\nStuart:And it's the problem with AI you don't necessarily always get what you think you get.
\n\nDean:Oh no, sorry about that. A dearth is a scarcity or a lack of something. There is a dearth of evidence. So forget what I said. There's not going to be a dearth of chat GPT books there's going to be an abundance of them, and abundance.
\n\nStuart:So this idea that now becomes the baseline.
\n\nThere's definitely a place for those books in an oval funnel, but it's not necessarily the first thing in the most valuable thing that you could do, the thing to establish you as opposed to your competition, particularly when you're in a field that isn't.
\n\nThere's no shortage of financial advisers, no shortage of doctors, so to be able to differentiate yourself from the crowd, this idea of having the opinions come through and the thing that you're sharing, just as you said, is your experience and your stories, which are unique, even separate from the fact that you are, to a certain degree, pre-programming and pre-conditioning people to think in that way, so that the first time that they walk through the door, they're already predisposed to be aligned with your way of thinking. It definitely seems to be a silver bullet problem of thinking this is just going to be a push button, but the contrast to that, as you alluded to, is the ease of the actual intelligence option. The easiest way is just to talk about the things that you know, using a model that structures it in a way that achieves the job of work.
\n\nDean:It's a bit. We do the prompt thing. You're the intelligence we draw it out from you.
\n\nStuart:Right.
\n\nDean:And everybody, it's easy to talk, yeah.
\n\nStuart:So I think the place where it does have a benefit is potentially downstream. So we talk about often I have a book now what it's not a kind of build it and they will come type problem, although I did hear a podcast the other day where they were adamant that it was build it and he will come, they will come.
\n\nDean:Okay.
\n\nStuart:So the opportunity is now that the book's created. You've got an outcome at the end of it, a call to action that you want people to do, and leading up to that is a table of contents, that kind of roadmap, stepping stones them from the beginning to the end. So the content within the book helps you elaborate your ideas and motivate and educate people to take that. The opportunity with ChatGTP is to take that to. Did I say GTP again? Yeah, you did.
\n\nDean:Every time.
\n\nStuart:Hopefully I'm trying to change them, not have them change me. So the opportunity is to have ChatGTP elaborate on some of those ideas. You've now got an asset in the book that shares your opinions on, say, five subjects, five elements within the book. Those elements are going to resonate with people in many different ways. To have the content to address each of those options, of all the different ways that people think about a particular thing, ChatGTP is a great way to very quickly brainstorm and elaborate on that. So starting off with the seed idea of the chapter title and then give me more variations will reveal ways of thinking about it. You didn't necessarily think about it because you come into it with your way of thinking. So I think it definitely gives there's an amplification opportunity, but amplifying your ideas amplifying someone else's ideas.
\n\nThis idea of trying to be more broad once the thing is created, but that thing is yours and something that you own that can be used in multiple ways. I think that's really the hockey stick opportunity of sharing that thought wider and broader.
\n\nDean:Find that their ChatGTP is a really great brainstorming partner. You think about that as a great way of thinking about it, Like if you're thinking about what would be good content ideas to write articles or email follow-up things, about what would be some questions about this particular topic that I could write and that's. It's really good in figuring those things out and prompting like that and that way you can use it as a guidance to get to prompt your thoughts about you answering the questions. You know.
\n\nStuart:Yeah, yeah, that's a great point as well, this idea of there's. So bringing it back to. We often use the analogy of what conversation would you have if someone just walks through the door and asks you about your business? The real world, this idea of conversational conversion to the real world example, and then repeat that in there or reflect that in the email, the idea that the AI is a thousand people coming in and asking those questions. It just is such a faster way of moving through all of the talking points to be as broad as possible, not just narrow. The other thing that we've been using it recently for is with a couple of people who have got more. We've worked with a couple of clients recently who have got good Facebook skills in terms of.
\n\nFacebook ads. So they've got platforms and teams that can vary quickly and cost effectively do a lot of split testing, so very small costs but, split, test different things.
\n\nSo this idea of chat GPT coming up with lots of variations around the words of a particular subject and then these particular teams are very capable at testing them. It's an interesting way of getting that real world feedback quicker. So should I call it this or this or should I position it in this way or this? They've had quite a lot of success in that testing it in the real world. So it's your ideas, your focus, your expertise, your opinions, but maybe just tailoring the language, something to resonate a little bit with the audience. We've got the idea of the minimum viable book. On the minimum effective book, I've got a preference for the minimum effective book, kind of pre-selling this before it actually gets written and finished. So hopefully no one's going to beat us to it. But those two books are exactly the same books, but whether one subject resonates more than the other, having chat GCP come up with lots of variations on those things.
\n\nDean:Well, I think that's really. You know this, this, lots of you know the rapid onslaught of more book options now that there's going to be more and more to read. I think it's what's not increasing. Is our attention right, our ability to sit and consume those books. I've been doing a series of podcasts about book, books that I've read, or how the lessons I've learned over, you know, 34 years of doing this here, and one of the things that I realized is that I had so much more time to read in the 90s, you know, in the early, the first half of doing that and until you know, up until the iPhone, where that's just such easy dopamine.
\n\nStuart:Right, that short hits yes.
\n\nDean:And it's such you know there's a burden of time, like you look at anybody's screen time on their phone and you look and see like how many hours a day sometimes mine gets into double digits. I mean, you know of screen time and it's just like some of it is useful, some of it is just going into, you know, a tick tock. You know it's just so easy to get in and get one minute. It's never not satisfying right, there's always a win.
\n\nStuart:And always the potential of something funnier and better. The next one. That's what I mean, and it's so easy to just contaminate.
\n\nDean:Everything's going that way now. Youtube shorts, facebook Reels, instagram, tick tock they all look the same. You can't tell which stream you're in. They're all trying to. You know, because that's the winning formula has been just infinite scroll of stuff that the algorithm is pushing to you, right, so that versus the you know, manual nature of reading a book. That's why I think these short books that take advantage of the shorter window and it's a service to people to be able to condense and organize your thoughts into a.
\n\nyou know from concentrate, get just the good stuff in the book. You know fluff like everybody's bought books that you buy this 250 page book that could have easily been explained in 50 pages and would have been more useful and better. And that's what I look at is let's just start with that.
\n\nStuart:Yesterday, as we're recording today. On Thursday yesterday I recorded a podcast with Brandon Poe, who I think is sort of probably be the show that goes live before this one. But here's the whole point. He's on his fourth book now, so the first one was a traditional one, three with us. So he was talking about handing them out an event that they were at, a big accounting event, and had several phone calls from people where they were saying I read it on the flight on the way home because it's 50 pages, one concept and starts the conversation.
\n\nDean:Yeah.
\n\nStuart:Yesterday we were watching the 360, the abundance of 360 feed and Tony Robbins was on talking about the life force book, which must have passed me bad. I didn't even know it was one. That was exactly what.
\n\nDean:It's a huge book.
\n\nStuart:Yeah, that's my first thing was I really want to read that. There's lots of interesting seems like there's lots of interesting stuff there. My second thought was on Amazon. It's 728 pages.
\n\nDean:Yeah.
\n\nStuart:I'm not going to read that.
\n\nDean:Right, exactly, I'm going to do the best well in wealth.
\n\nStuart:I've got the drive back up to Pennsylvania next week so I might audiobook it because.
\n\nDean:I'm guessing that it will be a 24 hour audiobook, but even that I mean this these hours that things are shifting, you know, and our attention spans are needed to get the payoff. And certainly you know, as long as it's an entry into a who, not how type of relationship that your clients are craving from you. Yeah, the positioning as being a who for someone not just showing people how that's that was valuable. I mean, it used to be valuable to learn and show people how to do stuff, because that was the only way that they would really Right. That was their option. Learn, that's what they were looking for. Looking for the how do I do that?
\n\nStuart:Yeah, I often use the same with people that the book's not the product, the conversation's the product, and comparing it with traditional publishing, where the book is the product.
\n\nDean:Yeah.
\n\nStuart:Publishers are interested in book sales and volumes and the money that comes back from it. Yeah, I got an email the other day from I think it was Book Baby, one of the published self-requisition services out there, and they were. It was something that I'd never thought about before, but they were talking about chargebacks for authors. So there, I think the position of their email was that they don't do chargeback. So if you in a traditional world, if you get your book into a bookstore but the bookstore eventually returns it, whatever royalty that you were paid which they gave an example, and I mean I know how small the royalties are, but it was really reminded of a $20 book, you ended up with $1.75.
\n\nBut then of that $1.75 for the return, they reclaimed the royalty payment but also charged you the return shipping for the book. So you can be in a situation in a traditional world where the book is the product of actually being underwater. I mean, it's such a crazy scenario compared with, like you say, the thought that the book is an introduction to a conversation and the conversation is leading to you being who to solve their problem, which is really what people want.
\n\nDean:Yeah.
\n\nStuart:Yeah, yeah, that difference, the opportunity that I think people need to know now about the robot side of things is it's not a civil bullet, it's people are going to just press a button and try and get it to it for them, but that's going to be a low value piece. There's going to be a lot of them out there, so to separate you from the competition. It's really establishing your ideas, your perspectives, and that's why people is building that rapport, why people want to work with you.
\n\nDean:And we're saying all of this with only knowledge of GPT-3. That's why I want to really say that? Because I have not had a chance yet to interact with GPT-4, which may be if we're to believe everything that we're hearing, it may be the equivalent of having a graduate student working for you to just set them on a task and write the whole thing. It may get easier, but I think it's still about the it's still more book reports.
\n\nStuart:That's what I mean, and that's the thing.
\n\nDean:There's no other way. This is the best way and that's what people really want. The differentiator of a field report I look at all of the books that I've been talking about on my series of the most impactful books in my life are not they're not book reports. They're field reports from people who actually created insight and can articulate it and share it in a valuable way that I get from. I think about what Robert Cialdini.
\n\nI think about six weapons of influence and persuasion that those aren't technical, just book reports. Those are based on thinking, observing, setting up experiments, executing the experiment, analyzing the data and coming to his explanation of it in a way that you can see that when you get somebody to take some initial action, the odds of them taking the next step are exponential. And that's kind of where that was one of the thoughts that led to using a book as the first step in something. If I've got courses about how to take great photographs of people and I am offering a book to people called how to Take Great Photographs of People, that if I'm offering the people who download my book a weekend experience of an immersive course on taking great photographs of people, odds are they're going to be very interested in that, because they raised their hand to tell me the congruency of it.
\n\nStuart:it's such a clear path. We think about mapping out that journey from the conversation starter to the first easy way of getting started, that kind of mafia offer in their profit activators. But it's all of the psychological benefit of a book, all of the credibility that it carries and all of the authority to be able to bottle that up into something that also meets their attention requirement and gives a clear next step, an obvious logical next step. That's where the real difference comes in yeah, yeah, super exciting.
\n\nFantastic. Well, we'll check back in as we bow down to our mobile overlords and see how the world looks.
\n\nDean:then we can deploy actual intelligence for people still serving up actual intelligence since 2013. Since 2013.
\n\nStuart:Fantastic. Well, thanks, as always. Everyone thanks for watching. I'll link to Dean's series on the 10 most influential books in the show notes, so make sure you check out that. Yes, and we'll catch you in the next one, awesome.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, I caught up with Dean Jackson at the studio to talk about the impact of AI on book writing and explore how AI, rather than 'doing it for you,' can help amplify your ideas and opinions while still providing the psychological benefits of having a book. \r\n\r\nAI can be a fantastic tool to quickly split-test different parts of your broader idea to find the one that resonates with your audience, but we talk about why establishing a unique perspective is more important than ever in a world where generic AI-generated content is on the rise. \r\n\r\nIt can help create an experience that meets your reader's attention requirements, and we discuss how 'Actual Intelligence' paired with artificial intelligence can be the rocket fuel that gets your idea out there fast.","date_published":"2023-05-07T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/97559f0b-5200-4540-9c7d-0773c56f8c47.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":16972474,"duration_in_seconds":1404}]},{"id":"0ccecb58-8b93-4527-b13a-b48a22e9bdb2","title":"Ep135: Getting Prequalified with James Khoury","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/135","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with James Khoury, a mortgage expert with 18 years of experience, as we dove into simplifying the home buying process for first-time buyers and his book, 'Finally Getting Prequalified'.\n\nWe explored how a book can start the sales conversation by using some of the biggest questions clients have and James's example of the five key areas everyone needs to consider when looking for a mortgage: credit, budget, education, funding, and debt. James shared valuable insights on navigating these areas, emphasizing the importance of education and understanding your options. \n\nWe also discussed the long-term benefits of building strong, lasting relationships with clients and the power of sharing personal stories through books. Listen in as we delve into the building blocks of onboarding clients, including how James's book, educational classes, and social media presence all tie together to create a cohesive approach to helping potential clients. This is an episode you won't want to miss!\n\n\nLINKS\nJames Khoury\nThe Khoury Team\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/135\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart:\nHey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today I'm excited to be joined by James Corey James Hodeon. \n\nJames: Hey, good Thank you for having me, Stuart. I appreciate it. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. We're both coming off the back of Coles, I think. So I tripped over my words already, so hopefully everyone listening will give us a little bit of leeway if we have little bits of a stumbling and stuttering and coughing as we go through. Great to finally catch up. I've been excited by this one because your book which I'll obviously get into the details, but your book is really the transcendental example of starting the conversation with some of the biggest questions that people have got in mind and then using it as a jumping off point. So I want to start with a bit of a background on you and the business and where you located, and then we can jump into the book. \n\nJames: Yeah, absolutely, thank you. Thank you again for having me. I'm excited to be here and share this with everybody. Ultimately, what we're looking for is to help consumers know, especially ones that have difficulties when you're looking to purchase a home, because I think for most people that's the ultimate goal is to become a homeowner, have something of your own, your kingdom, your castle, whatever you want to call it. We all work hard and want a place to go home to. \n\nThat's RO, and I found over the years of the last 18 years of being in finance and doing it that these five keys that we talk about in the book are the biggest hurdles for people. So I kind of wanted to essentially put something together and simplify it, because it's really not as difficult as it may think, as long as you have the right guidance along the way. Right, we've all. You can pull up and read anything you want on the internet and find whatever you want to, however you want it to be. \n\nIf you're looking for something negative, you certainly can. For positive, you certainly can, but this is just a nuts and bolts of the reality, of what it takes, what we need to do and how we get there, and my background has been doing this, as I mentioned, 18 years. It's a long time my entire adult life and I felt like it was time to put this out there and help people achieve that dream. If there was any thoughts that somebody couldn't do it, I wanted to let them know that you can, and I'm a prime example of myself. \n\nStuart: And let's get there. I'll throw up for people watching on the video. So the book itself is called Finally Getting Pre-Qualified. So obviously, a mortgage pre-qualification guidance, this idea that the five straightforward keys and the idea of simplifying it and giving people bite-sized chunks to sink their teeth into. I think a lot of people get themselves wrapped up when they're thinking about creating a book, because they overcomplicate it and think it either has to be unique or has to be an idea that's not been thought of before, or they have to include absolutely everything, when the reality is. This is the starting point of a conversation. So did you have a similar challenge when you were thinking about it in terms of what to include or what not to include, or was it pretty straightforward? 18 years of experience, these are absolutely your five starting places. \n\nJames: Yeah, I felt like these were the five most important things, because what have been some of the hurdles along the way are part of these five keys. So it's navigating through them, okay. Well, what does it mean? When you hear this terminology, you know credit. What are they looking for? For example, credit, and we talk I talk about that in there and I want people to understand that that's just one of the areas. So there's five key areas that everyone has to go through. \n\nIt doesn't matter, you know, as long as you're looking for a mortgage, obviously if you're paying cash or something, that you're not going through these. But the rest of us, 90% of the people that don't that have to get financing. You have these perceptions that you may have heard over the years that I need to have X amounts put down, I have to have this, and a lot of those are not true, especially in today's financing, and I think education is the biggest part of it and advising the consumers that you do have options. You don't have to have 20% because, let's face it, the market is so expensive now, housing everywhere, that majority of people, especially young, you know, the millennials that are looking to purchase even some Gen Zs now are getting into that as well. Don't have that capital, you know. So how can you avoid that and still become a homeowner? \n\nStuart: That's a great point, because some of the fundamental beliefs that people have might have been based on information that was true at the time, particularly if you get this information from a parent, but it's not necessarily true today. So, kind of rethinking what the reality is and helping people, kind of reposition what the real things are, going to make a difference versus what they might think. It's going to be that introduction to the conversation that ultimately leads to the next step, which is always going to be more detailed, and the devil's always in the detail. But the conversations that you have, these five keys that you've got, does that come in the majority of the conversations? This is really the starting point for most, no matter where they're coming from. This is really at least one of these five areas. \n\nJames: It really is, because they all need to be discussed, right, Like we have credit, budget, education and funding and debt, right, and all of those are touched upon and different facets of the conversations that you may have and think about, like credit, for example, well, where do I have to be? I think one of the myths is you have to have 800 credit, 750 credit, which is really good, and if you do, that's fantastic. I commend you Well during the people don't. But just because the scores aren't that high doesn't mean that you don't have options that are actually good options. So that's one area. \n\nBudget is important, because I also tell everyone, just because you can afford something on paper and you qualify for it doesn't mean it's in your budget, right, Because ultimately, there's so many other facets of life that they don't account for, especially if you're thinking about it First time full buyer. Maybe you live with your parents, you've never paid rent, or maybe you've paid rent, but it includes everything, and now you have utilities. You have all these other expenses on top of it. So it is so imperative that people understand that going into it just because something looks good on paper and it works right Doesn't mean it's in your best interest. \n\nStuart: That idea of affordability, not just jumping through the hoops. I mean, that's a difficult conversation to have with someone because, as you say, the prices just that the baseline price on the property are so much more expensive than when you and I were that much younger. So the cost of just the first element is that much more. When you start adding in all of the things that you forget about and it really is two or three things that aren't accounted for can lead to an extra 100, 200, 300 dollars a month, which can be the difference between really living on the edge and having at least a little bit of a cushion to account for rainy days or unexpected incidents. With the people that you're dealing with. Thinking about who your customers are, is it mainly first time buyers and that younger age group, or is it movers or refinancers, people who have been around the block more than once and understand it? What's their level of education? \n\nJames: Really good question. On that I would say me personally. I deal with the majority of first time home buyers. I'm affiliated with a lot of nonprofits so we do a lot of education, educational classes, so majority are first time home buyers looking to purchase. I actually even with the refines over the last few years I actually still did significantly more purchases than refinances, which is not typical of what the market was. But I've always been a purchase heavy person and I geared towards that. \n\nObviously, repeat clients and investors but the majority are, I would say, it's their first home and I think a lot of times they're referred to me is because anyone that's been in the business that has known me a long time. No, hold their hand, I'll walk them through it, I'm patient, I'll respond. Things like that make them feel comfortable because I look at myself. I've purchased many properties over the years and it's a lot and it's overwhelming to me and I do this every day. So can you imagine a 27 year old buying their first home like what that's going to feel like? So I put myself in that shoes and I will hold their hand to the finish line and I don't mind enjoying it because at the end of the day. I want them to be comfortable, confident and know that they made the right decision. \n\nStuart: Right that approach, that hand holding approach, and understanding that it is complicated for people it's even highly educated people or people who don't get flustered and overwhelmed Just the volume of work that's required to get through the home-run process. It's not straightforward and the system isn't designed to be as it wasn't designed from a kind of UX perspective of making it as user-friendly to on-board people as possible. It's just a legacy system that's got a lot of challenge and individual moving parts to it. When thinking about the book and what you were including, was that a thought as well? You were very much thinking about? So were you thinking about the people who are reading it and how to streamline it and characterizing with the rest of your process? 100%? \n\nJames: I wanted it to be streamlined so that first time home buyers specific or anyone in general, but specifically her first time home buyers that may have had those questions along the way or may have had the apprehensions of, hey, maybe I can't do this or maybe I'm not ready to know, maybe they're not and maybe this helps them realize that they're close but they should wait because of their budget, or maybe that you know what you actually really are ready and if you want to and it's the time that makes sense for you, then you can do it. It's ultimately just giving them that knowledge. It's kind of like my hand-holding right, hand-holding them through the process. This is the exact same way. I'm giving them scenarios that have been happening in real life, that we've gone through some myself. I'm giving them real life examples of how to navigate through some of those things, because the ultimate goal is I want them to be homeowners, but I want them to sustainability right. I don't want them calling me in six months saying I can't afford this. What am I going to do? \n\nNo one wants that. You know that is the most heartbreaking thing. You've worked so hard to get there and now you're struggling. But if we can help you get that, what you need to, so that you know you're ready if something unexpected happens or something to that nature. You know confidently that you'll be able to stay and be there and move forward and then bounce back. But if you don't go through that and have that outlined, then you just no one wants to buy a house. And then you're heating. What happens if your heating goes in? Six months? It's possible Things happen Like you know that as a whole water there's, the most randomest things will happen and you're like yeah, and it's not inexpensive. \n\nStuart: Homeownership always reminds me of weddings or kids. You just can start adding zero on the end of it. There's a podcast I listen to. I remember the host talking about travel and he said it wasn't until I was in my 40s that I realized to make travel stress-free you need an additional $1,000, that you just budget and pretend that it's gone already. So then when the car rental place adds on a fee, or when there's extra parking, or when there's an extra train trip or something you need to throw in if that's all accounted for, it just relieves so much stress. If you're going in just bang on your budget and you've got no additional contingency, then every additional thing someone asking for an ice cream you're looking at the price of it before you think whether you want an ice cream or not. It's so stressful. \n\nJames: True, no one wants to live like that. It's tough, but if you put yourself in that position, then that ice cream could make or break you for the weekend. I hate to see that. It's a tough situation, but if you're ready we'll get through it. \n\nStuart: And it must be even more personal when you're dealing with a lot of referrals and repeat business and recommendations from organisations that you know work with. It's not like this is a very transactional business, where whole leads are coming in and then you just farm into more fells. Well, you've got a real relationship with these people. So knowing that you're putting them in a position that best serves their outcome not just allows them to do the transaction that they might want to do first, both on the kind of on the low side and the high side, but it's really thinking about the person that you're working with as a person and their kind of life going forwards beyond the point that you've finished working with them. That referral based business has much more of a real connection than just a transaction based business. \n\nJames: Yeah, it's way more important to me. I don't look at it as it's a transaction. You're purchasing a home. I'm helping you. I look at it as we're lifelong friends and I'm near from you. So I've had clients that I want to say now, like 14 years, where now one of them, like their kids, are buying which is hilarious to me but they will not do anything without calling and say what do you think of this? Or they get something in the mail on some random thing and they'll call me. I love that because to me it's not a transaction. \n\nIf I were doing this for the transaction, I wouldn't have done the book. I'm doing it because I want those relationships in the long lasting and I want you to think about. If you want to buy, call me. At the end of the day, it's not about money on my edge. I've been very successful, fortunately, doing this a long time. I care about the individual and if someone comes to me with something that is a better deal than we're able to offer, I'm very transparent and say this makes sense because of this. It's not about ego, it's about those relationships and those mean more to me than anything. I treat them like I would want my family treated and that's how you have to look at it, not just in a house or this and anything you do in life. I think if you put that out there like that, you're going to get better results and better long-term sustainable relationships. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it really has been in it for the long term. And thinking about the people on the other side of the conversation, I think that's what's beneficial. That's why I like talking to people about books. Because of all of the possible sales, lead generation type work, referral type work that you could do websites, line page emails a book really does carry something more than itself. \n\nI think it's a carryover from when we were kids and even before that there's a value given to books which now, in a self-publishing world, I mean we're trying to leverage that a little bit because it's easy for us to create them. We don't have to go to a publisher and get approval to do it and it doesn't have to be laid out on a printing dress with a monk type setting everything. So there's definitely advantages that we can leverage, but the idea of sharing your small story, what's personally important to you, why these things are important, wrapped up in the pages of books that you can give to someone, that just sets the scene, builds the foundation of the relationship in a much more meaningful way than just a landing page or an email or the digital options that we've got now. When you were thinking about creating the book in the first place. Was it a long journey before thinking about it to eventually get started, or was it pretty quick? You saw us on a. \n\nJames: I want to say that it was about a five and a half year journey when. \n\nI thought about it till completion and about a year and a half when it started, to finish, because life gets in the way, right, like anything else, you get busy. I wanted five years ago I had conversations with several people in my life that this would be really good, like I think it would be beneficial, and life goes on. And then the beginning of 2022, I said this is the year it's going to happen and that's when it started. There was a gap in between and finished at the beginning of about this year, 2023, but yeah, it was worth it, though At the end, I wanted to provide value. I mentioned the first time home buyers and doing a lot of those educational courses. I just wanted to be able to bring them with me and say, here you go, Like, if this are read, this is subsequent to this class, I think you'll get value to it and that's what it was about to me adding value in people's lives that are looking to get pre-qualified and finally buy their dream home. You know it was worth it. \n\nStuart: It's funny, isn't it? I mentioned a couple of times that we have conversations all the time with people who jump on the list and have an initial call with us years and years ago, and then time goes, and then, obviously, covid added the kind of time warp of two years anyway, and it equally seems to take a bit. \n\nJames: Probably would have been a good time to write a dance to it. Probably would have been a good time. \n\nStuart: I look back and think, oh man, how much of a missed opportunity was that in terms of things slowed down a little bit. I remember. So I'm 47, I remember my first job out of college was a financial services type job but we didn't have emails. I can remember getting an email in that job, but two or three years into that job. So that pace of life so much slower. But I'm sure there were other things that distracted us back then as well. But then, more recently I can't really comment to other people that scorecard book, the book looping scorecard that I wrote. I was looking back and I've got a mind map and I took a picture of six years ago of the initial outline for that and although all of the ideas in there, like you, are things that we talk about day in, day out, to actually get it finished or even started took long enough, probably care to admit. So it happens to all of us. A couple of shoes problem of so busy dealing with other people's books that don't get around to your own. \n\nJames: Yeah, I imagined. \n\nStuart: One of the things that get back on subject, one of the things that Spark to thought, just as you were talking, is the idea of the much class and home buyers class, the educational pieces that you do a lot of already. \n\nSo this was quite a strong thing funnel used from in the nicest sense of the word, but that opportunity to talk to potential clients. So the book itself, as you describe it, is a great way of supporting and almost reinforcing your message after the class. It also ties nicely in as a free class option. So if people using it as a referral tool, people you've worked with in the past, if you hear someone talking about struggling with them or with your house in questions, give them a copy of the book and then the book leads to the class as well. So talk a little bit about this idea, maybe not quite so formal, but this idea of how all of these things tie together. So there's conversations going on, there's a book out there that talks about things. There's a class that you have, there's probably other assets that you've got. How do they kind of tie together? \n\nJames: I'm guessing, thematically, they all have the same topic, obviously but yeah, they all really do, right, because everything starts with a conversation. Everybody's a little bit different, right? So some people are more methodical and want to kind of read through and look, so the book is perfect. Some people are more visual and want that face to face, so maybe one of those classes is a really good opportunity. Some people just like content. \n\nSo, if social media and other aspects that you put out, content that talks about programs or give little nuggets right, everybody's attention spans a little bit different, so some people are going to want to sit there and go through this and analyze it, and I think this is right for them. Other people want to just hear you talk all about it, right, like, I'm very visual and thought, so I need to like see it, hear it and I also need to read it. So for me it's kind of like all of them. But this gives everybody, of all different avenues, their exact way to be able to relate to it and absorb it and use that to get the nod. Whether it's the book or those classes or, like I said, social media as well, I think they but ultimately they all do work hand in hand collectively, because if you go to one and you get some nuggets from here and here. All together you create that big picture. \n\nStuart: That's such a great way of thinking about it, because the kind of fundamental idea that you've got so many things, certain other things that form the building blocks of how you'd onboard people, but now you've got the opportunity to pick and choose which one are the matches best for them, because you can tell in the conversation or you can't tell in the conversation because that doesn't come up but by presenting the opportunity to share these different messages. And it's always reinforcing because each of the class and social media posts and the emails in the book, each of them are really delivering the same message but in different ways. So they're reinforcing. And it might be I forget it was a Harvard study or something like that where it takes kind of seven contact points for people to become a client what the true math is these days for different industries. But having the different elements that you can refer people to, that really helps build those elements in and just gives more opportunity that someone's gonna see something from you at the point that they're ready to take that next step. \n\nJames: That makes it less transaction as well. To that relationship. Give them all the different areas that meets their specific. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think we see it and I see my own experience of working with other companies as well, not as a provider but as a customer. There's many times where I would fully be on board with starting today. But if something just comes up, so it doesn't quite happen. Or today's maybe not the day, but a year from now is definitely the day. So if someone stays in touch with me, it's always in the back of my head. My computer screams at me sometimes because I've got too many tabs open, because I've got terrible habit of leaving tabs that I want to come back to at some point in the future. \n\nBut that's funny. It builds up to an insane amount. But this idea of having things that you can stay in touch with, people, understanding that you never really know when they're going to convert, just because they raised their hand today doesn't necessarily mean that today's the day for them. But to be able to use the stick with the book, use the book as an example to create some emails around and then refer back to as kind of like a tentpole piece of content Do you find that similar in the industry? People will enter your world or will know about you quite a long period of time before they actually turn into customers. \n\nJames: Absolutely, and part of it is not. Everyone's buying a house every day. So you're using those knowledge, you're taking that knowledge and information, you're jotting it into your memory, writing it down, however you know, keep tabs on that right and then, when it comes time, you go back to it. So just because you have consultations or you're doing those seminars doesn't mean that you're going to those people, are going to be in your lives at all. Let's just say they are. They could be three years down the road. \n\nI've had clients in the past that have seen social media posts on stuff that we've posted and reached out and said, hey, this was great, I saved this from three years back and now you know they followed us along the way and we've taught them right. So they learned what this means, what that means and different avenues of the business. And then they come to us. So goes back to that relationship, right it's. You never know when someone sees something right, when they're going to eventually need it and it's in any business, not just ours. But you see things, you want it, like it, but it's not time for it. But when it comes back to it, you go and then find it, and that's essentially what this was kind of like the last piece of that. This book was the last piece of putting all of that together, like there's all these other areas that you can find us Now here's the last one. \n\nStuart: And it's such a amendment free your pressure, free way of people joining the world on you, knowing that they're more interested now than they were three years ago Someone opting into something it's a very non-threatening way of starting that conversation or re-engaging people and in a way that ties in completely with everything else that you've got done, I think for the referral type businesses people like you who've got a strong footprint and a strong community, always having it there to be able to allow other people to refer it as well. \n\nSo sending out that checking email saying, hey, it's been a year just checking in. If you've got any questions, let me know. Or sending out an email that talks about an education piece about rate changes and people's options, and then having that super signature of. By the way, if you know anyone that's got any other questions, grab a free copy of the book here. It's a great resource. Just allow us for such a non-threatening option for people to understand more about you guys and what you do. It's a great way of being a community first or a value first option for starting that conversation. \n\nJames: Yeah, absolutely, and it's not salesy, it's not a sales pitch, it's very direct. These are typical standard conversations. The keys are of what goes on with every person we speak with, and we thought this was just the perfect way here to go. And exactly, you know someone that needs it. Here's a copy of the book. Just read through it. If there's any subsequent questions that I can help elaborate, articulate better, that's specifically for you. I'd love to help out and that's all it is. It's just bridging that entire gap and kind of putting it all together. And this was the final piece and I'm excited about it. \n\nStuart: It's great to finally get it and the cool thing actually you've got a book leads back to the course as well. So those people who are more material. So it really is that it closes the loop, like I said, the final piece of the puzzle that closes loop. It's going to be really interesting to check back in on progress. Like you say, it's only just recently finished. We really had a chance to get it out there in the world too much, but it'd be really interesting to check back in kind of six, eight months and see how it's going. So if you're up for that, it'll be really good to do another show a little bit further down the track. \n\nJames: Yeah, I'd absolutely love to. It would be fantastic. \n\nStuart: Any pointers? So obviously we send out the show mainly goes to people who are on our list. So these are people who have expressed an interest in writing a book or obviously, our past clients. Any pointers? For people who are thinking about it but they haven't pulled the trigger yet. \n\nJames: And I say this do it, it's the best that you're gonna do. You will not regret it. It may take time and if you say you're gonna do it, like me five and a half years ago, it's okay. It takes you five and a half years, seven and a half years. Get it done, it's gonna feel good and you're gonna feel like you're adding that value. So, whatever you're trying to do whether it's for your business, never it may be to your life, to people. You're adding value and that's ultimately what this meant to me was I'm adding one piece of value and if it can help any consumer learn or believe that this is possible, that's worth it to me. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. As we're wrapping up, let's make sure that people can find out more about what you guys do. So where's a good place for people to go to learn more about James and the family? \n\nJames: Yeah, absolutely Simple. You can connect with us, our website, our team website. We closeyourloanscom. Very simple, Closeyourloanscom. You can also check us out on Facebook, Instagram and all of that at the Corey team. So it's the last thing, Corey team, you'll find us. We have a lot of content. We'll do a lot of spoofs, funny things and along the way, and that value was fantastic. \n\nStuart: Well, I'm sure we've got links to all of these in the show notes, so, as you're listening, check out the show notes either in the podcast player or over on the website. James, just wanna say thanks again. It's been really good to catch up. I'm glad that both of our voices held out a little bit. \n\nWe rescheduled them last week to make sure. So, on the road to recovery, I'm really excited. Just before we started recording, we said that we'll do a strategy call, just kind of brainstorm some ideas, because the work that I've done with other people who've written similar books with similar purposes in different industries, they've really had some great results and use them in certain ways. So I'm excited to share those with you and, like I said, well, jump back on another podcast in six months time on the track and we can update people on how the progress has gone. \n\nJames: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me, stuart. I appreciate it. This was fantastic and it's a blessing to be here with you. \n\nStuart: No problem at all. Well, thank you everyone. Thanks for watching. Make sure you check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with James Khoury, a mortgage expert with 18 years of experience, as we dove into simplifying the home buying process for first-time buyers and his book, 'Finally Getting Prequalified'.
\n\nWe explored how a book can start the sales conversation by using some of the biggest questions clients have and James's example of the five key areas everyone needs to consider when looking for a mortgage: credit, budget, education, funding, and debt. James shared valuable insights on navigating these areas, emphasizing the importance of education and understanding your options.
\n\nWe also discussed the long-term benefits of building strong, lasting relationships with clients and the power of sharing personal stories through books. Listen in as we delve into the building blocks of onboarding clients, including how James's book, educational classes, and social media presence all tie together to create a cohesive approach to helping potential clients. This is an episode you won't want to miss!
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/135
\nHow does your book idea score against the 8 book building blocks we use here all the time: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nJames: Hey, good Thank you for having me, Stuart. I appreciate it.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. We're both coming off the back of Coles, I think. So I tripped over my words already, so hopefully everyone listening will give us a little bit of leeway if we have little bits of a stumbling and stuttering and coughing as we go through. Great to finally catch up. I've been excited by this one because your book which I'll obviously get into the details, but your book is really the transcendental example of starting the conversation with some of the biggest questions that people have got in mind and then using it as a jumping off point. So I want to start with a bit of a background on you and the business and where you located, and then we can jump into the book.
\n\nJames: Yeah, absolutely, thank you. Thank you again for having me. I'm excited to be here and share this with everybody. Ultimately, what we're looking for is to help consumers know, especially ones that have difficulties when you're looking to purchase a home, because I think for most people that's the ultimate goal is to become a homeowner, have something of your own, your kingdom, your castle, whatever you want to call it. We all work hard and want a place to go home to.
\n\nThat's RO, and I found over the years of the last 18 years of being in finance and doing it that these five keys that we talk about in the book are the biggest hurdles for people. So I kind of wanted to essentially put something together and simplify it, because it's really not as difficult as it may think, as long as you have the right guidance along the way. Right, we've all. You can pull up and read anything you want on the internet and find whatever you want to, however you want it to be.
\n\nIf you're looking for something negative, you certainly can. For positive, you certainly can, but this is just a nuts and bolts of the reality, of what it takes, what we need to do and how we get there, and my background has been doing this, as I mentioned, 18 years. It's a long time my entire adult life and I felt like it was time to put this out there and help people achieve that dream. If there was any thoughts that somebody couldn't do it, I wanted to let them know that you can, and I'm a prime example of myself.
\n\nStuart: And let's get there. I'll throw up for people watching on the video. So the book itself is called Finally Getting Pre-Qualified. So obviously, a mortgage pre-qualification guidance, this idea that the five straightforward keys and the idea of simplifying it and giving people bite-sized chunks to sink their teeth into. I think a lot of people get themselves wrapped up when they're thinking about creating a book, because they overcomplicate it and think it either has to be unique or has to be an idea that's not been thought of before, or they have to include absolutely everything, when the reality is. This is the starting point of a conversation. So did you have a similar challenge when you were thinking about it in terms of what to include or what not to include, or was it pretty straightforward? 18 years of experience, these are absolutely your five starting places.
\n\nJames: Yeah, I felt like these were the five most important things, because what have been some of the hurdles along the way are part of these five keys. So it's navigating through them, okay. Well, what does it mean? When you hear this terminology, you know credit. What are they looking for? For example, credit, and we talk I talk about that in there and I want people to understand that that's just one of the areas. So there's five key areas that everyone has to go through.
\n\nIt doesn't matter, you know, as long as you're looking for a mortgage, obviously if you're paying cash or something, that you're not going through these. But the rest of us, 90% of the people that don't that have to get financing. You have these perceptions that you may have heard over the years that I need to have X amounts put down, I have to have this, and a lot of those are not true, especially in today's financing, and I think education is the biggest part of it and advising the consumers that you do have options. You don't have to have 20% because, let's face it, the market is so expensive now, housing everywhere, that majority of people, especially young, you know, the millennials that are looking to purchase even some Gen Zs now are getting into that as well. Don't have that capital, you know. So how can you avoid that and still become a homeowner?
\n\nStuart: That's a great point, because some of the fundamental beliefs that people have might have been based on information that was true at the time, particularly if you get this information from a parent, but it's not necessarily true today. So, kind of rethinking what the reality is and helping people, kind of reposition what the real things are, going to make a difference versus what they might think. It's going to be that introduction to the conversation that ultimately leads to the next step, which is always going to be more detailed, and the devil's always in the detail. But the conversations that you have, these five keys that you've got, does that come in the majority of the conversations? This is really the starting point for most, no matter where they're coming from. This is really at least one of these five areas.
\n\nJames: It really is, because they all need to be discussed, right, Like we have credit, budget, education and funding and debt, right, and all of those are touched upon and different facets of the conversations that you may have and think about, like credit, for example, well, where do I have to be? I think one of the myths is you have to have 800 credit, 750 credit, which is really good, and if you do, that's fantastic. I commend you Well during the people don't. But just because the scores aren't that high doesn't mean that you don't have options that are actually good options. So that's one area.
\n\nBudget is important, because I also tell everyone, just because you can afford something on paper and you qualify for it doesn't mean it's in your budget, right, Because ultimately, there's so many other facets of life that they don't account for, especially if you're thinking about it First time full buyer. Maybe you live with your parents, you've never paid rent, or maybe you've paid rent, but it includes everything, and now you have utilities. You have all these other expenses on top of it. So it is so imperative that people understand that going into it just because something looks good on paper and it works right Doesn't mean it's in your best interest.
\n\nStuart: That idea of affordability, not just jumping through the hoops. I mean, that's a difficult conversation to have with someone because, as you say, the prices just that the baseline price on the property are so much more expensive than when you and I were that much younger. So the cost of just the first element is that much more. When you start adding in all of the things that you forget about and it really is two or three things that aren't accounted for can lead to an extra 100, 200, 300 dollars a month, which can be the difference between really living on the edge and having at least a little bit of a cushion to account for rainy days or unexpected incidents. With the people that you're dealing with. Thinking about who your customers are, is it mainly first time buyers and that younger age group, or is it movers or refinancers, people who have been around the block more than once and understand it? What's their level of education?
\n\nJames: Really good question. On that I would say me personally. I deal with the majority of first time home buyers. I'm affiliated with a lot of nonprofits so we do a lot of education, educational classes, so majority are first time home buyers looking to purchase. I actually even with the refines over the last few years I actually still did significantly more purchases than refinances, which is not typical of what the market was. But I've always been a purchase heavy person and I geared towards that.
\n\nObviously, repeat clients and investors but the majority are, I would say, it's their first home and I think a lot of times they're referred to me is because anyone that's been in the business that has known me a long time. No, hold their hand, I'll walk them through it, I'm patient, I'll respond. Things like that make them feel comfortable because I look at myself. I've purchased many properties over the years and it's a lot and it's overwhelming to me and I do this every day. So can you imagine a 27 year old buying their first home like what that's going to feel like? So I put myself in that shoes and I will hold their hand to the finish line and I don't mind enjoying it because at the end of the day. I want them to be comfortable, confident and know that they made the right decision.
\n\nStuart: Right that approach, that hand holding approach, and understanding that it is complicated for people it's even highly educated people or people who don't get flustered and overwhelmed Just the volume of work that's required to get through the home-run process. It's not straightforward and the system isn't designed to be as it wasn't designed from a kind of UX perspective of making it as user-friendly to on-board people as possible. It's just a legacy system that's got a lot of challenge and individual moving parts to it. When thinking about the book and what you were including, was that a thought as well? You were very much thinking about? So were you thinking about the people who are reading it and how to streamline it and characterizing with the rest of your process? 100%?
\n\nJames: I wanted it to be streamlined so that first time home buyers specific or anyone in general, but specifically her first time home buyers that may have had those questions along the way or may have had the apprehensions of, hey, maybe I can't do this or maybe I'm not ready to know, maybe they're not and maybe this helps them realize that they're close but they should wait because of their budget, or maybe that you know what you actually really are ready and if you want to and it's the time that makes sense for you, then you can do it. It's ultimately just giving them that knowledge. It's kind of like my hand-holding right, hand-holding them through the process. This is the exact same way. I'm giving them scenarios that have been happening in real life, that we've gone through some myself. I'm giving them real life examples of how to navigate through some of those things, because the ultimate goal is I want them to be homeowners, but I want them to sustainability right. I don't want them calling me in six months saying I can't afford this. What am I going to do?
\n\nNo one wants that. You know that is the most heartbreaking thing. You've worked so hard to get there and now you're struggling. But if we can help you get that, what you need to, so that you know you're ready if something unexpected happens or something to that nature. You know confidently that you'll be able to stay and be there and move forward and then bounce back. But if you don't go through that and have that outlined, then you just no one wants to buy a house. And then you're heating. What happens if your heating goes in? Six months? It's possible Things happen Like you know that as a whole water there's, the most randomest things will happen and you're like yeah, and it's not inexpensive.
\n\nStuart: Homeownership always reminds me of weddings or kids. You just can start adding zero on the end of it. There's a podcast I listen to. I remember the host talking about travel and he said it wasn't until I was in my 40s that I realized to make travel stress-free you need an additional $1,000, that you just budget and pretend that it's gone already. So then when the car rental place adds on a fee, or when there's extra parking, or when there's an extra train trip or something you need to throw in if that's all accounted for, it just relieves so much stress. If you're going in just bang on your budget and you've got no additional contingency, then every additional thing someone asking for an ice cream you're looking at the price of it before you think whether you want an ice cream or not. It's so stressful.
\n\nJames: True, no one wants to live like that. It's tough, but if you put yourself in that position, then that ice cream could make or break you for the weekend. I hate to see that. It's a tough situation, but if you're ready we'll get through it.
\n\nStuart: And it must be even more personal when you're dealing with a lot of referrals and repeat business and recommendations from organisations that you know work with. It's not like this is a very transactional business, where whole leads are coming in and then you just farm into more fells. Well, you've got a real relationship with these people. So knowing that you're putting them in a position that best serves their outcome not just allows them to do the transaction that they might want to do first, both on the kind of on the low side and the high side, but it's really thinking about the person that you're working with as a person and their kind of life going forwards beyond the point that you've finished working with them. That referral based business has much more of a real connection than just a transaction based business.
\n\nJames: Yeah, it's way more important to me. I don't look at it as it's a transaction. You're purchasing a home. I'm helping you. I look at it as we're lifelong friends and I'm near from you. So I've had clients that I want to say now, like 14 years, where now one of them, like their kids, are buying which is hilarious to me but they will not do anything without calling and say what do you think of this? Or they get something in the mail on some random thing and they'll call me. I love that because to me it's not a transaction.
\n\nIf I were doing this for the transaction, I wouldn't have done the book. I'm doing it because I want those relationships in the long lasting and I want you to think about. If you want to buy, call me. At the end of the day, it's not about money on my edge. I've been very successful, fortunately, doing this a long time. I care about the individual and if someone comes to me with something that is a better deal than we're able to offer, I'm very transparent and say this makes sense because of this. It's not about ego, it's about those relationships and those mean more to me than anything. I treat them like I would want my family treated and that's how you have to look at it, not just in a house or this and anything you do in life. I think if you put that out there like that, you're going to get better results and better long-term sustainable relationships.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it really has been in it for the long term. And thinking about the people on the other side of the conversation, I think that's what's beneficial. That's why I like talking to people about books. Because of all of the possible sales, lead generation type work, referral type work that you could do websites, line page emails a book really does carry something more than itself.
\n\nI think it's a carryover from when we were kids and even before that there's a value given to books which now, in a self-publishing world, I mean we're trying to leverage that a little bit because it's easy for us to create them. We don't have to go to a publisher and get approval to do it and it doesn't have to be laid out on a printing dress with a monk type setting everything. So there's definitely advantages that we can leverage, but the idea of sharing your small story, what's personally important to you, why these things are important, wrapped up in the pages of books that you can give to someone, that just sets the scene, builds the foundation of the relationship in a much more meaningful way than just a landing page or an email or the digital options that we've got now. When you were thinking about creating the book in the first place. Was it a long journey before thinking about it to eventually get started, or was it pretty quick? You saw us on a.
\n\nJames: I want to say that it was about a five and a half year journey when.
\n\nI thought about it till completion and about a year and a half when it started, to finish, because life gets in the way, right, like anything else, you get busy. I wanted five years ago I had conversations with several people in my life that this would be really good, like I think it would be beneficial, and life goes on. And then the beginning of 2022, I said this is the year it's going to happen and that's when it started. There was a gap in between and finished at the beginning of about this year, 2023, but yeah, it was worth it, though At the end, I wanted to provide value. I mentioned the first time home buyers and doing a lot of those educational courses. I just wanted to be able to bring them with me and say, here you go, Like, if this are read, this is subsequent to this class, I think you'll get value to it and that's what it was about to me adding value in people's lives that are looking to get pre-qualified and finally buy their dream home. You know it was worth it.
\n\nStuart: It's funny, isn't it? I mentioned a couple of times that we have conversations all the time with people who jump on the list and have an initial call with us years and years ago, and then time goes, and then, obviously, covid added the kind of time warp of two years anyway, and it equally seems to take a bit.
\n\nJames: Probably would have been a good time to write a dance to it. Probably would have been a good time.
\n\nStuart: I look back and think, oh man, how much of a missed opportunity was that in terms of things slowed down a little bit. I remember. So I'm 47, I remember my first job out of college was a financial services type job but we didn't have emails. I can remember getting an email in that job, but two or three years into that job. So that pace of life so much slower. But I'm sure there were other things that distracted us back then as well. But then, more recently I can't really comment to other people that scorecard book, the book looping scorecard that I wrote. I was looking back and I've got a mind map and I took a picture of six years ago of the initial outline for that and although all of the ideas in there, like you, are things that we talk about day in, day out, to actually get it finished or even started took long enough, probably care to admit. So it happens to all of us. A couple of shoes problem of so busy dealing with other people's books that don't get around to your own.
\n\nJames: Yeah, I imagined.
\n\nStuart: One of the things that get back on subject, one of the things that Spark to thought, just as you were talking, is the idea of the much class and home buyers class, the educational pieces that you do a lot of already.
\n\nSo this was quite a strong thing funnel used from in the nicest sense of the word, but that opportunity to talk to potential clients. So the book itself, as you describe it, is a great way of supporting and almost reinforcing your message after the class. It also ties nicely in as a free class option. So if people using it as a referral tool, people you've worked with in the past, if you hear someone talking about struggling with them or with your house in questions, give them a copy of the book and then the book leads to the class as well. So talk a little bit about this idea, maybe not quite so formal, but this idea of how all of these things tie together. So there's conversations going on, there's a book out there that talks about things. There's a class that you have, there's probably other assets that you've got. How do they kind of tie together?
\n\nJames: I'm guessing, thematically, they all have the same topic, obviously but yeah, they all really do, right, because everything starts with a conversation. Everybody's a little bit different, right? So some people are more methodical and want to kind of read through and look, so the book is perfect. Some people are more visual and want that face to face, so maybe one of those classes is a really good opportunity. Some people just like content.
\n\nSo, if social media and other aspects that you put out, content that talks about programs or give little nuggets right, everybody's attention spans a little bit different, so some people are going to want to sit there and go through this and analyze it, and I think this is right for them. Other people want to just hear you talk all about it, right, like, I'm very visual and thought, so I need to like see it, hear it and I also need to read it. So for me it's kind of like all of them. But this gives everybody, of all different avenues, their exact way to be able to relate to it and absorb it and use that to get the nod. Whether it's the book or those classes or, like I said, social media as well, I think they but ultimately they all do work hand in hand collectively, because if you go to one and you get some nuggets from here and here. All together you create that big picture.
\n\nStuart: That's such a great way of thinking about it, because the kind of fundamental idea that you've got so many things, certain other things that form the building blocks of how you'd onboard people, but now you've got the opportunity to pick and choose which one are the matches best for them, because you can tell in the conversation or you can't tell in the conversation because that doesn't come up but by presenting the opportunity to share these different messages. And it's always reinforcing because each of the class and social media posts and the emails in the book, each of them are really delivering the same message but in different ways. So they're reinforcing. And it might be I forget it was a Harvard study or something like that where it takes kind of seven contact points for people to become a client what the true math is these days for different industries. But having the different elements that you can refer people to, that really helps build those elements in and just gives more opportunity that someone's gonna see something from you at the point that they're ready to take that next step.
\n\nJames: That makes it less transaction as well. To that relationship. Give them all the different areas that meets their specific.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think we see it and I see my own experience of working with other companies as well, not as a provider but as a customer. There's many times where I would fully be on board with starting today. But if something just comes up, so it doesn't quite happen. Or today's maybe not the day, but a year from now is definitely the day. So if someone stays in touch with me, it's always in the back of my head. My computer screams at me sometimes because I've got too many tabs open, because I've got terrible habit of leaving tabs that I want to come back to at some point in the future.
\n\nBut that's funny. It builds up to an insane amount. But this idea of having things that you can stay in touch with, people, understanding that you never really know when they're going to convert, just because they raised their hand today doesn't necessarily mean that today's the day for them. But to be able to use the stick with the book, use the book as an example to create some emails around and then refer back to as kind of like a tentpole piece of content Do you find that similar in the industry? People will enter your world or will know about you quite a long period of time before they actually turn into customers.
\n\nJames: Absolutely, and part of it is not. Everyone's buying a house every day. So you're using those knowledge, you're taking that knowledge and information, you're jotting it into your memory, writing it down, however you know, keep tabs on that right and then, when it comes time, you go back to it. So just because you have consultations or you're doing those seminars doesn't mean that you're going to those people, are going to be in your lives at all. Let's just say they are. They could be three years down the road.
\n\nI've had clients in the past that have seen social media posts on stuff that we've posted and reached out and said, hey, this was great, I saved this from three years back and now you know they followed us along the way and we've taught them right. So they learned what this means, what that means and different avenues of the business. And then they come to us. So goes back to that relationship, right it's. You never know when someone sees something right, when they're going to eventually need it and it's in any business, not just ours. But you see things, you want it, like it, but it's not time for it. But when it comes back to it, you go and then find it, and that's essentially what this was kind of like the last piece of that. This book was the last piece of putting all of that together, like there's all these other areas that you can find us Now here's the last one.
\n\nStuart: And it's such a amendment free your pressure, free way of people joining the world on you, knowing that they're more interested now than they were three years ago Someone opting into something it's a very non-threatening way of starting that conversation or re-engaging people and in a way that ties in completely with everything else that you've got done, I think for the referral type businesses people like you who've got a strong footprint and a strong community, always having it there to be able to allow other people to refer it as well.
\n\nSo sending out that checking email saying, hey, it's been a year just checking in. If you've got any questions, let me know. Or sending out an email that talks about an education piece about rate changes and people's options, and then having that super signature of. By the way, if you know anyone that's got any other questions, grab a free copy of the book here. It's a great resource. Just allow us for such a non-threatening option for people to understand more about you guys and what you do. It's a great way of being a community first or a value first option for starting that conversation.
\n\nJames: Yeah, absolutely, and it's not salesy, it's not a sales pitch, it's very direct. These are typical standard conversations. The keys are of what goes on with every person we speak with, and we thought this was just the perfect way here to go. And exactly, you know someone that needs it. Here's a copy of the book. Just read through it. If there's any subsequent questions that I can help elaborate, articulate better, that's specifically for you. I'd love to help out and that's all it is. It's just bridging that entire gap and kind of putting it all together. And this was the final piece and I'm excited about it.
\n\nStuart: It's great to finally get it and the cool thing actually you've got a book leads back to the course as well. So those people who are more material. So it really is that it closes the loop, like I said, the final piece of the puzzle that closes loop. It's going to be really interesting to check back in on progress. Like you say, it's only just recently finished. We really had a chance to get it out there in the world too much, but it'd be really interesting to check back in kind of six, eight months and see how it's going. So if you're up for that, it'll be really good to do another show a little bit further down the track.
\n\nJames: Yeah, I'd absolutely love to. It would be fantastic.
\n\nStuart: Any pointers? So obviously we send out the show mainly goes to people who are on our list. So these are people who have expressed an interest in writing a book or obviously, our past clients. Any pointers? For people who are thinking about it but they haven't pulled the trigger yet.
\n\nJames: And I say this do it, it's the best that you're gonna do. You will not regret it. It may take time and if you say you're gonna do it, like me five and a half years ago, it's okay. It takes you five and a half years, seven and a half years. Get it done, it's gonna feel good and you're gonna feel like you're adding that value. So, whatever you're trying to do whether it's for your business, never it may be to your life, to people. You're adding value and that's ultimately what this meant to me was I'm adding one piece of value and if it can help any consumer learn or believe that this is possible, that's worth it to me.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. As we're wrapping up, let's make sure that people can find out more about what you guys do. So where's a good place for people to go to learn more about James and the family?
\n\nJames: Yeah, absolutely Simple. You can connect with us, our website, our team website. We closeyourloanscom. Very simple, Closeyourloanscom. You can also check us out on Facebook, Instagram and all of that at the Corey team. So it's the last thing, Corey team, you'll find us. We have a lot of content. We'll do a lot of spoofs, funny things and along the way, and that value was fantastic.
\n\nStuart: Well, I'm sure we've got links to all of these in the show notes, so, as you're listening, check out the show notes either in the podcast player or over on the website. James, just wanna say thanks again. It's been really good to catch up. I'm glad that both of our voices held out a little bit.
\n\nWe rescheduled them last week to make sure. So, on the road to recovery, I'm really excited. Just before we started recording, we said that we'll do a strategy call, just kind of brainstorm some ideas, because the work that I've done with other people who've written similar books with similar purposes in different industries, they've really had some great results and use them in certain ways. So I'm excited to share those with you and, like I said, well, jump back on another podcast in six months time on the track and we can update people on how the progress has gone.
\n\nJames: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me, stuart. I appreciate it. This was fantastic and it's a blessing to be here with you.
\n\nStuart: No problem at all. Well, thank you everyone. Thanks for watching. Make sure you check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with James Khoury, a mortgage expert with 18 years of experience, as we dove into simplifying the home buying process for first-time buyers and his book, '_Finally Getting Prequalified_'.\r\n\r\nWe explored how a book can start the sales conversation by using some of the biggest questions clients have and James's example of the five key areas everyone needs to consider when looking for a mortgage: credit, budget, education, funding, and debt. James shared valuable insights on navigating these areas, emphasizing the importance of education and understanding your options. \r\n\r\nWe also discussed the long-term benefits of building strong, lasting relationships with clients and the power of sharing personal stories through books. Listen in as we delve into the building blocks of onboarding clients, including how James's book, educational classes, and social media presence all tie together to create a cohesive approach to helping potential clients. This is an episode you won't want to miss!","date_published":"2023-04-30T10:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/0ccecb58-8b93-4527-b13a-b48a22e9bdb2.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":21058441,"duration_in_seconds":1701}]},{"id":"32ea132f-3d36-4c0f-acdf-c22fdfc148c1","title":"Ep134: Debt B Gone with Tim and Pat Ash","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/134","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Tim & Pat Ash, Divorce Attorneys and Financial Advisors from Farmington Hills, Michigan, about their latest book Debt B Gone.\n\nI love speaking with people who want to write a book that helps people, and it's even more engaging when it's based on a personal experience.\n\nTim & Pat created their framework to help people see debt differently. Based on their journey of financial freedom, it's a process that's helped many clients change their lives, and they saw the opportunity to start many more conversations using a book to introduce the approach.\n\nIt's the perfect example of the 'Name it and claim it' type of book we often talk about, and a great conversation demonstrating how a personal connection can build rapport with potential clients, leading to a lifetime relationship.\n\nThe Debt B Gone website is launching in the coming weeks, so Keep an eye on DebtBGone.org to watch this platform develop.\n\n\nLINKS\nTim and Pat Ash\nDebtBGone.org\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/134\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n****\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore show. It's Sue Bell here, and today joined by Tim and Pat Ash Guys, great to see you. Thanks for making time to be here. Yeah, well, thank you. \n\nTim: Thank you for inviting us. \n\nStuart: No problem. So do you guys work together, based out of Michigan financial and lawyers and financial advice to the same clients? \n\nPat: Yeah, not at the same time by trade. We're Tim as a lawyer. Yes. \n\nStuart: Okay, so that's an interesting dynamic. I think most of the other podcasts we've done have just been with individual authors rather than people who have written together. Don't stop by giving people a bit more of a background on how you guys got started, how the practice came together and the two elements of it. \n\nTim: First of all, my name is Tim Ash and I have been a lawyer for a little over 30 years now and I'm just pretty much in the area of divorce and family law. \n\nSo where this debt begone book came about is really out of our own relationship, patty and I. We were going through life. She was a marketing executive for AT&T yellow page portion and her career kind of came to an end and our reality started crashing, in that we had really saved enough money and we haven't planned properly for retirement because we were too busy living paycheck to paycheck, and so that's where I think our life took a turn and we started to explore why it is that we were living paycheck to paycheck and we ran into various people along the way and various needs and so forth, but one of the things was the Dave Ramsey plan taught us to budget and to work together as a couple, and then, through Stan and some other people on the insurance side, taught us about a whole life policy that can literally be used to help us reduce our debts and reduce our savings, and that's where, in about 2018, we came up with the idea of debt begone, our book that's just being published now. \n\nPat: Let me get it. Tim had mentioned Dave Ramsey. What we just you know what we thought very hard about is the Dave Ramsey program is great, you get out of debt, but what do you have at the end? You have nothing. \n\nStuart: So your debt starts again. \n\nPat: So what we had, that's when we went to explore other options and the options of using an insurance chassis to have people save their money and pay out their debts. But at the end, because of an insurance chassis, there's money there for them to use. So that's kind of so. We invested it in our own life, we took it about our own life and started doing that, and now we just want to teach others Because you've had that success, you've experienced it, you've lived through it yourself. \n\nStuart: So it gives such a real experience to want to be able to share with other people. And then, of course, the professional skills to be able to actually help them, not just suggest to a friend that it would be a good thing to do, but there's tools and resources. You've got to facilitate it for people. While I'm thinking, let me get a cover of the book just up on screen here for anyone who's watching along. There we go, the cover. I love the cover because it's such a it's. I want to say it's uplifting for people just listening. It has a balloon. It's a higher balloon on the cover itself, but it's. It's really uplifting. \n\nThis idea of whole life and I'm not sure whether so my background is in the IT side of financial services in the UK my past career years ago so it's an area that I've always been interested in. But having worked for the last 10 years with people in the US, the idea of using whole life as a facility, as a well building tool, is something that I'm not familiar with. So I'm not sure whether it's just the products aren't the same coming from the UK, or whether it's a technique that's just not available, but that as an idea, it definitely seems to be less familiar to people rather than more familiar to people. So do you find that in talking to people, this is really the so in the seed of an idea? It's kind of explaining what it? \n\nis not just something that people know about and you're just offering it to people on it. \n\nPat: What it is, how it can benefit your life, how it can benefit your portfolio and again, that be gone the products and services that we use to do this. There's a few insurance companies that offer a product that is completely designed for a high rate of return, so that you can then take that money, borrow it from yourself and pay your debts. \n\nTim: Right. Here's why I'm excited to be here. His 90 minute book is so fantastic, because this is such a new idea. We are now able to tell it by way of a story. Through Patty and I, through our own struggles, we take a little bit of a different turn, but we basically we were in a position in our marriage that we were ready to draw up divorce papers. We did go eventually to bankruptcy to get a fresh start. We've been through a lot of things to get where we're at, but realizing that this whole life policy and this idea of getting rid of debt is more transformative, you have to change your mind. You have to really think differently. So the idea of a story in a book that 90 minute books could help us to draw out is just. It's a fantastic way to plant the seed of a new idea, and I do think this is a new idea. \n\nStuart: Right, we also refer to the best day books. They're kind of setting the scene for something that people might not know about. It's the opportunity to, in a slightly longer format than just a quick conversation or a page on a website, allows you to get into the details and really starts to build rapport. \n\nPat: The concept of this. That's really what we call bank on yourself. The concept of banking on yourself has been around a long time, so we took that concept and embellished it with a story. Obviously, like Tim said, we have experienced it, but we embellished it, put characters in it so that you, the reader, can see the happy results of the subject, not just off sitting there and telling them it'll work for them. They can read it, they can see it, they can reflect on it, rather than just a person sitting there trying to represent something. \n\nStuart: Right. It's such an interesting insight, isn't it? Because, as you say, you could tell someone the same story being sat in front of them. But to a certain degree, particularly if you don't have a rapport yet with them, if they're new to your world, it does feel like people have got their defenses up a little bit. They're expecting to be sold to back, put them on the back foot, whereas consuming something in their own environment. \n\nEven the idea of kind of like the subliminal authority of a book. That's not necessarily what we're trying to go primarily, but there's definitely a subliminal element to it, subconscious elements. It's a third party vetted body that made sure that these words are on a page and therefore I think they're received in a better way. The idea of writing a book in the first place isn't necessarily something that everyone jumps to. Was that a thought that you'd had for a while, or had you seen other people do something similar? \n\nTim: We had through our travels of learning about finances through the insurance industry read your family bank and Larry McLean was a big influence on us, on you know this is a great product. Why aren't more people doing it? And so, as we implemented that in our own life and got rid of our own, you know, credit card debt, and now we're managing our debt in a way that we never would have thought of. And so it's to me the biggest factor of going back and looking at why we got into financial trouble. It's not because of how much money we made. We made a lot of money, but we continued to focus on the. Now, you know we didn't look at oh, we should save X amount of dollars every month because it'd be good to have savings. Savings, just it wasn't valued to us. \n\nAnd now we look at savings as a big value, a big portion of our Dollar amount. We commit two thousand dollars every month to our savings plan through our family bank or bank on myself, whatever you want to call it. But this idea that you hold this money in then and then you can borrow from it is very powerful. But you still have to get rid of that mentality of she was if I want something. Can I afford it? If that's not the right question to ask, it's really do you need it? Do you really want it? The consequences of what it might provide in your family If you were to come become unemployed or your paycheck should go down or inflation should go up those are the kind of concerns that you should be asking. People don't, and that's why they end up living as the way we did Paycheck to paycheck. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's just go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh, so I was just gonna say quickly it is an interesting insight, isn't it? Because it's not necessarily that. It's a the mechanism for making it work. It isn't necessarily Just a tool or a silver box, a silver bullet product. It's a change in mindsets. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. \n\nPat: That's where it has to start if you can't put a budget together and make savings your priority I mean, your government gets so much You're tithing then should be next and then your savings should be that you should be paying yourself. \n\nRight then we deal with the lifestyle and what we can do. And if you look at someone's lifestyle, they say, well, where am I going to get the $2,000? We're going to get the $500. To do that, I'm strapped. We involve a debt coach. So once they sign on to the concept of wanting to learn, we assign them a debt coach and that debt coach helps them look at where they're spending money, where they're wasting money. Maybe it's Overdraft on checks, maybe it's they're paying double the amount to a visa card because they want to get ahead. Whatever it is, we take a look at that. We find the funds within their own they're on economy and then we apply those funds to the savings that. That becomes their savings. \n\nTim: It is sorry to go for it. \n\nI'm just gonna say, as patty's talking about this, the book within it is debt elimination university, and debt elimination university is a five week course which Focuses on first saving your money, knowing what you're, knowing your money, knowing where it goes every month, and then applying that money to Basically taking your savings and applying it to your bank and then watching your bank as it eliminates your debts. \n\nAnd then, after your debts are over, you can then see where you borrow from yourself Instead of an emergency going to visa. Those three classes are kind of the what I'd call the substantive part of the class, of the teaching. But then the last two are about your Transforming your mind, thinking differently, understanding that you don't have to have it now, or you don't have to keep up with the Joneses, or you need to forgive yourself or some people. You just need to love yourself. Stop, you know, with these comfort type things that you're doing, just Change the perspective of how you look at your life. And then the last class is about hope and vision and gratitude and living your life in a different, transformed way. So it's a part substantive and then it's part transformative through your mind, and I think both of those elements are really important because it does create the full picture. \n\nStuart: I mean a bandaid over clearing some debts, like you say. It's not necessarily going to be a long-term solution If you get to the end and then you just start the cycle again. Those elements there within the book. It was in relatively straightforward as you were thinking about creating it, what to include and what not to include, or was the sum back and forth on kind of how much is enough to to Share the message and they're not turned into a kind of the next great American novel which would still be on the shelf and not helping anyone, I think the more of the struggle was Because we've taken a website, created classes. \n\nTim: Patty and I filmed ourselves through these classes that actually you know now I threw the book but now you can go on the website and now it was like, are we going to charge for the classes? Are we going to? You know, this is something that is being done. We're like no, we decided a hard decision was we want to give this away. We want people to just be able to put in this code, you know, a promo code free and be able to go in and look at these classes and get the forms and get the ideology and that way they can figure out themselves. Because it's a process. \n\nYou may be willing to do one aspect of it but not another, and if you're not doing all the transformative things, then you're really not ready to, let's say, go out and get a whole life policy, because if you're not going to save money, if you don't save money like every month regularly, if that's not part of your plan yet, then you're not ready. You need to get used to that plan. So the website, the book and different things that we're doing are all about trying to give people an idea of whether they really want to move into this type of life or not. Because I could tell you you want to. You want to move into the life. It's a beautiful thing for us not to worry about debt anymore. I mean, it's just freeing. \n\nPat: Well, and that's the debt coach too is a very specific and very important part of this process, because that debt coach becomes your coach and you tell them what your issues are and that you can't. You know, and that's that debt coach. So, like we talked about, look at their current economy and figure out how they can actually put themselves into a savings position. \n\nStuart: That's it Interesting way of thinking about it, because you have not only the opportunity to share the knowledge with people through the book and the free course to get them to that first stage, highlighting the importance of the debt coach the fact that it's a difficult thing to do yourself because you've maybe got 20 or 30 years of habit and experience gets you to this place. The likelihood of just reading something or completing something and then switching into a different mindset is quite, quite a challenge. So I can imagine that debt coach and the elements outside of or in between the pages the things aren't necessarily immediately talked about or, if you were trying to do yourself, not immediately written on a list. I imagine those are some of the things that can be the game changer that gets people to thinking about the whole thing in a different way. Do you get much feedback from people in that way to say that the coaching element was really the thing that set them on the right path? \n\nPat: I would say yes, that is definitely where the rubber meets the road. \n\nTim: Yes, I think, as we sat down and we met with people along the way, the hardest part is they're not really ready to consistently put savings forward and put it first place, and so that's kind of why our first class is savings is the key. If you can't save money consistently, then you can't get out of paycheck to paycheck living. You're going to continue to increase your debt and your money will be worth less in your economy. It's just a reality. You want to face that reality. We're willing to face it with you. We've done it. We want to help them to come and to be free, and to do that. It isn't. We're working and so this is not a second job for us. This is a desire to want everybody to become debt-free, to have savings, to realize how important savings are and to live financially in a way that it doesn't control their genes anymore. That's the big thing. That was the big thing for us. \n\nPat: Well, the way we put our program together is at 65, we want everything paid off our office building and our home. Most people don't retire because they still have a mortgage and their retirement won't cover what they need with that house. So they end up selling their house or moving in with their children or getting something smaller that they think they can afford. But those are all reactive things that happen in your life. If you plan and be proactive, those things will never be part of the conversation, because you've now set yourself up to pay your debt, and then debt includes your mortgage. \n\nStuart: There's those elements of future Stuart and future Tim and future Paddy, being stuck because of past, our own past actions or not really thinking enough ahead. It's kind of overestimating the short term and underestimating the long term. For our parents, absolutely no for Veil and everywhere. Our daughter's 18, she's just working at her first job and we were just submitting some taxes for the first time this year. I was saying to check out with the employer because they might do a pension matching scheme. So you're not going to miss the two or 3% today. \n\nBut starting at 18, fortunately I was in a position to have a corporate job relatively early on. So for 10 years or so I was getting some pension funding going in there. But for the next 10 years it wasn't what I was thinking about. I was kind of going out on my own and not really I can't even justify by saying didn't have the funds, didn't have the funds but didn't have the foresight to continue that. So now in later years thinking okay, well, there was a good 10 years and now probably a 10 year gap and then thinking about catching up. So the people that you're helping I'm guessing it's more people who are in mid to later life because they're coming to it from having your experience, a good life, living life, not necessarily thinking about the future, building up some debts. So is that mainly the clients, so people who are in the second half rather than the first half, or do you get younger people as well? \n\nPat: Well, we work with both and let me give you an example of the younger people. \n\nWe've got children coming out of debt with college debts, I'm sorry, coming out of college with a lot of debt. I worked with one gentleman who went to a local private college, came out with $150,000 in student loans. Most of them are written on his parents, because a student can only take so much out. So we set up a plan, devised a plan to pay his debt off first and then he'll pay his parents debt off as he goes along. So as he accumulates enough, he takes one of those loans, he pays it and then what he was paying on that loan now he puts it back into his bank to accumulate again and then he can pay the next one off. So that's kind of how it works. So, and again, it's a long process that takes more than this to explain what you do with your money, but ultimately he should be out of debt in eight years where some of these people, some of these we have a doctor that's got a $300,000 student loan. I mean, they're carrying a house payment with them and they don't have to be. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such an interesting option that seems to be so universally applicable. There's more people that this can help than less, but it's something that so few people are aware of. I'm the last person to be a conspiracy theorist, but it definitely makes you question why, what it is about, the way that society is set up, and I don't know whether I don't think there is a room for the people rubbing their hands together and thinking how can we keep this a secret from people? I definitely think there is. An amount of people get overwhelmed and just bury their head in the sand, either intentionally or not, and just live day to day and don't want to think about it, because either it's too overwhelming or confusing. \n\nPat: They're living their life, they're raising their kids, they're buying bigger houses, they're buying cars. So if we can catch people early to your point, if we could catch them in their 20s and 30s and they're already probably already have a mortgage, they probably already have two car apartments, they probably have student loans, they probably go right on that, relied on that visa to do whatever it had to be done because they're strapped with children. If we can catch them early and change their mindset early, that would be great. \n\nStuart: That would be great. \n\nPat: But to the flip side of it is yes, we get, especially with the family law practice, we get people that are going okay, I have to take half my debt Now, I just had to sell my house, whatever they. Now, what do I do? And that's where we say okay, now there's a way you can eliminate these debts, there's a way that you can start your own retirement or your own path so that you because even now you split your retirement you know, dad got half, mom got half. So we get people off stages of life and for all reasons. \n\nStuart: So that second group is there ever a situation where it's I don't want to say too late, but is there? Well, I guess yeah, is there ever a situation where it is too late? Does this approach require a certain amount of time and just the practicalities of it? I mean, it's, it's at least a period of time, or is there always an option? Or is sometimes that option just well, we can make it less bad? \n\nTim: Well, if you're, I was speaking to a lady who was in her later sixties and she called about because she was receiving some alimony and her alimony was going to be up in another less than a year, and so she was living on this alimony and I said, well, you know what else? You know what other retirement savings or things do you have? And she didn't have anything. She was living in a house, so the house had value, but she then had an equity loan on the house because she ran into some areas of debt. And then she had a credit card with some, I remember, but it's somewhere under 10 grand. And now it's like, okay, she's getting this $2,000 or so in alimony. What's she going to do? I don't know that. I have an answer for that. I mean, she hasn't saved. She's going to get social security, which is going to replace her alimony, maybe. But people who don't have retirement savings and who haven't made a plan, I don't think you can make a plan for them when they get to 60, 70, 80 years old. \n\nPat: People start to plan when they run out of money, as opposed to you plan being not run out of money. That's the problem, right. \n\nStuart: It's the critic dealing with the critical issues, not with the planning ahead. So if there's no runway in terms of time and funds, this isn't a great money out of nowhere For the people who are worried that they've missed the boat and left it a little bit too long. I'm guessing that there's a pretty broad middle ground, from late 30s to 50s maybe, where there is an opportunity to make a difference. \n\nPat: There are definitely people that we can say I'm sorry, I can't help you because in Tim's situation person didn't work. There was no life that they created for themselves. They lived off of what they were getting. It's gone. \n\nTim: I think the answer there is that area where this type of thing can make a difference. It's the passion that drives Patty and I to say, hey, we were in this situation. Luckily, we did save some 401k money, we did do some things right, but we didn't end up in bankruptcy. So we understand how we did things wrong as well. So if there's any way we could pass that on to other people that are coming up in the 20s, 30s or certainly by 40s, because we did that 50. We started at really 50 is when Patty was separated from her company and we really realized we'd made a lot of mistakes and eventually started really focusing on what can we do to think differently. It wasn't easy, but now I'm so grateful that we did and now we just want to share that. \n\nStuart: Yeah kind of our passion and that group in the middle. So there's the young people at this end who've got all the time in the world to make some choices and start small. Even if they start small, just thinking ahead, you've got time on your hands. There's people at the under end of the spectrum that have the ship sailed a little bit. Unfortunately, the time is maybe there's just not enough runway, but this pretty broad middle from 30s to 50s. I imagine that there's a lot of people in that area that you can help in a lot of different situations. Where here's the idea that's been communicated in the book. But if that idea resonates at all, now you guys are bringing in the expertise to say, ok, well, this person, this would be their correct plan and this person would be another correct plan. Exactly, is that what you see? Quite a lot that kind of. \n\nPat: That's where the debt coach comes in, because they can see all the elements and their job is to do the best program for what the client needs, not what they need with the client needs. \n\nTim: It is also a reason why we took our age back to in our mid 40s in the book, because that's where we could have really made some really good different changes in our life if we would have taken our own advice right now. \n\nPat: You can answer your point some of the characteristics that we're looking for. Obviously we want them employed. They should have exponentially. There should be debt and mortgages always something that's good to demonstrate how quickly you can get out of debt and pay your mortgage. \n\nStuart: Right, which again isn't what people are thinking. They think in terms of 30 years and it just always being a payment there. So presenting the options with something that's easy for people to understand, but in a very different framework, must make quite a difference. \n\nPat: One of the beautiful things is that when they do borrow from themselves, that money is tax free. Right Borrowing tax free. They can pay up their debts tax free. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nPat: So and then obviously, they can either choose to pay themselves back or they can choose not to, but depending on where they're at in life. \n\nStuart: And that must give quite an amplifying effect. So not only do you have the access to the money in the first place a very different interest rate from borrowing on credit cards but the debt free element of it must kind of amplify the fact that sorry tax free money, that tax money that you're saving, can then be reinvested and make the part even bigger. There's really some synergies to it. Yeah, you guys are up in Michigan, right? Yes, and most of the clients you deal with locally, or are you expanding further field? \n\nTim: Mostly it's local at this point. \n\nPat: Yeah. But the book will go to anybody, so we'll help anybody Right. We just have to have a debt coach that's licensed in that state, which is not a problem. Right, yes we can help anybody in any state, but yet to start this process and to get it rolling, we're focusing on Michigan and that's what we say, that to people all the time. \n\nStuart: This idea of kind of 50 mile famous. If you're going to expend any effort and energy into sharing the message, it's not that you're going to turn away out of state people and say sorry, we can't, the doors are closed. But the effort to get the ball rolling makes so much sense to do it locally, even in terms of just the narrative and the stories and the experience and the frame of references talking to people who are within that local area. Just the conversations that you have with people are going to be more connected because you're physically there as well. \n\nPat: Well, if you affect one, you can affect many, you know, and that's so we're going to look to, you know, our church as an example. How can we introduce us to our congregation? Those are the types of face to faces that we anticipate, but we certainly online campaign that will start once this book is published is, you know, obviously another way for us to try to reach people that we can't touch physically. \n\nStuart: Yeah, so that rolls into kind of the cult action on the book and the back cover and what ideally you'd want people to do next after receiving it, either from an online campaign or a friend, referring them for the best value for them and the useful way that you can help. Someone gets a copy of the book. What's the best first step for them to take next? \n\nTim: And next step is to contact a debt coach, to engage a debt coach, and then go through the pages of the book with, you know, the debt elimination program, each class doing the homework. I would also engage at the same time with the computer, because the classes help not just on the pages. Maybe read the book first and say, well, I'm interested or I'm not. Then maybe take the next step and go to the computer classes and maybe understand a little bit more. You know, at some point, though, that debt Coach is going to have to be pivotal. If you really want to make real change in your life, you're going to have to have somebody that comes alongside of you, help you financially, transfer form your mind. \n\nStuart: And I guess that's both from like the knowledge and the encouragement, but also the accountability. It's difficult to break your own habits without. \n\nPat: Absolutely that debt coach. You know the intention is to have that debt coach stay with you until all your debts are paid off. \n\nStuart: Right. \n\nPat: So to help you focus on what you should pay off, first things of that nature. So they'll stay with you until you're out of debt. \n\nStuart: Which builds a relationship and more of a rapport and get to know your person. \n\nPat: Yeah, it's hard, and at that point that debt coach can figure out what else that client might need. Right, the first and foremost, you cannot retire if you're carrying a bunch of debt. Right, you just can't Poor planning. So you know you got to start somewhere and get rid of your debt, and then we'll start focusing on the other stuff. \n\nTim: Right and see I go different. I go no, you have to learn how to save money first. If you don't have any money to save, then I don't know how you can even begin to pay your debts, because it's only going to come back to you. \n\nPat: I kind of said that, with savings being a given, Wow, savings is never a given. \n\nTim: It's in our country. It's like people save less than 5% of their income and that's even generous to say that. Right, there's a lot of them. They don't save, they just have a negative position. If they need money, the card breaks down, they go to Visa or at consolidation or something along those lines. It's no that you've got to be able to set aside. How much money do you want to save every month and then make a 10-year commitment to that? You know, I understand things happen and maybe, but you're totally willing to make a 30-year commitment on your house. What the heck's the problem with making a 10-year commitment on your savings? Right, it's a mindset. And people, they just don't have that money. They don't pay $600 for the car for seven years, $600, but tell them they have to save $600 for 10 years and they totally freak out. \n\nStuart: Yeah, like I said, that mindset change. You were talking about the videos that you recorded. Do you both record videos as part of the program? \n\nPat: Yes, yes, yeah. \n\nStuart: I think that's an interesting dynamic that it brings even in the approach that you were just talking about a couple of seconds ago, a very slightly different approach to really the same thing. But the fact that there are the two of you, you're going to resonate with people in different ways or people are going to pick up on the different points. I think that's an advantage over just an individual right in the book. It's just their perspective. \n\nPat: Yeah, you read people and you figure out. You know, tim, I think this person is better with you, or Patty, I think you should talk to them. You just read their body language or dynamics, what they're made of, and then you figure out how you want to approach them. But definitely, I mean, what do we say? The average American can't even afford a $400 emergency. \n\nTim: Right, but it's scary, isn't it? Yes, the thing is, we realized, in talking to people, though, people are different stages and they'll sit here and they'll tell you oh yeah, I'm ready to do this, but then, when it comes right down to it, they're not. Or maybe they do it for a year and then they, you know, and that doesn't do any of us any good. I mean, this has got to be a win-win. You've got to really want to transform. If you don't keep going through the classes until you get it, or until you really desire that you want to, you might read the book and go well, that was an interesting story, and I think I really I like what Tim and Patty are doing, but it's not for me. Okay, that's fine. Or you could say well, I'm interested in this, I'll take the next step and I'll sign up for the classes. Or maybe you're so enthusiastic about it, you do the book and you sign up for the classes and you get the dead coach. You get the whole thing and you try to figure out what else can. \n\nI know, and that's the person that we're kind of looking for you want to really help someone who really wants to help themselves. \n\nStuart: And, as you say, you don't know what stage people are at and often I guess they don't know what stage they're at. So at least by reaching people at the top of the funnel, at the beginning of their thought process even if it takes them a year or two to get to the point that they're ready to work with you at least you've started that conversation and given some that can value and the opportunity to stay in touch until they are ready to go and hopefully at that point they're fully engaged and ready to jump on and make those choices to have a different outcome and I think it's exactly about planning the seed. \n\nTim: That's what you do you plant the seed, you wait. We fully expect that this is a new concept or it's an old concept that's bringing in a new way, whatever way you look at it. But we're saying, okay, we're not here, we're not living on this, we're not making a. You know, we're not looking at making money on this, we're looking to form lives. That's what we want to do. So if it takes two or three years to get where people catch on, but it's like fire, though, once something catches on right it takes off Right, it goes and goes fast. \n\nStuart: That's what we're excited looking at, that we're seeing a lot of transformed lives. \n\nTim: We're seeing American people who are, and we're seeing the debt. You know that. What's the calculation of debt? Now, we want to see that go down overall. We want to see people saving money not 5%, but maybe 15%, you know, let's see that number. That'd be a great number to see. So that's what is exciting. \n\nPat: And when you put it into perspective and we use pie charts to show people what their reality is. And the reality is that what over what would we say? 41% is generally lifestyle, a little over 30s debt. \n\nStuart: I mean so? \n\nPat: that slice of savings is so small it hardly shows up. So you know, when they see how they're living and they see what they should be doing, then they start to. But like Jim said, you can take a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. \n\nTim: They have to decide. \n\nPat: They have to decide. This is a personal decision. \n\nTim: And that's what the book and our website, that's what you know. We don't want to force anybody to do anything, but we want to give everybody a good idea of what they could be in life, how free, how financially free and otherwise they could be free to make better decisions in their lives. Free to, you know, enjoy things that they never thought of before. You know that kind of thing. \n\nStuart: And the psychological freedom like you started off by saying to free up from that baggage, that overhead, of having that constant worry all the time is life changing. \n\nPat: Oh yeah, it is so joyful to be able to take a breath and know that I don't have the debt that I had, and it's so joyful to know, at 65, I'm going to have a choice Do I want to retire or not? \n\nStuart: Because my house is paid for. So if I you know if I can. \n\nPat: There's so many more options open to you if you don't have debt. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah. \n\nPat: That opens up the options of everybody to be. \n\nStuart: So, again, super appreciate the time coming on. It's so. It's been really enjoyable the last couple of episodes I've done speaking with people who are clearly passionate about what they do. You can kind of see it and feel it coming through, not only in the books that we're helping people write but in the conversations that we have here. So where's the best place for people to find out more, as they're listening to this and want to kind of jump on board or just see what you're doing, where's the best place for them to go? \n\nTim: It would be a go to our W dot debt B, just a B, not B, e, b goneorg, that be goneorg. It's the best way to get information on our website, and so forth. \n\nStuart: Perfect. Well, I'll make sure there's a link to this in the show notes and the and the web page that goes along with it. So as people are listening, they can just click on the show notes on their podcast player or a lot of people go to the website, so we'll make sure there are links there and the cover of the book. As I say, it's one of my favorites because it's a lot brighter than the others and it really kind of communicates that uplifting opportunity. \n\nPat: You're free. Freedom You're free. \n\nStuart: Right, my grandparents lived in Bristol when I was a kid in the UK and there's a big Bristol balloon festival, so it's it's personally resonating. \n\nFor that reason, I just want to say thanks again for your time. It's been a real pleasure to go through the process and it's really exciting to see the book come to fruition and get out there. One of the other things that's also exciting for us on this side is we're obviously we've done a thousand books with people now, so we see people go through the process and some people do more and some people do less and like with your clients not everyone's ready or they've come and joined the program. They're not always ready to go all the way through, but the fact that you've got a program that's built around it, there's a framework within the book. There's the introduction with the idea, there's the online courses that helps people even more, your videos and then the service itself, that holistic approach, so that wherever people are, they can come and board the train and there'll be something waiting for them. So, yeah, highly recommend everyone going over to debtbegonorg and then check out what Tim and Pat have done. \n\nPat: Thank you. \n\nStuart: No problem. Thank you guys, really appreciate it. Everyone thanks for listening. Again, as I say, if you're looking on the podcast player, then head over to the website to just make sure that you get the show notes and we will catch everyone in the next one. Thank you. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Tim & Pat Ash, Divorce Attorneys and Financial Advisors from Farmington Hills, Michigan, about their latest book Debt B Gone.
\n\nI love speaking with people who want to write a book that helps people, and it's even more engaging when it's based on a personal experience.
\n\nTim & Pat created their framework to help people see debt differently. Based on their journey of financial freedom, it's a process that's helped many clients change their lives, and they saw the opportunity to start many more conversations using a book to introduce the approach.
\n\nIt's the perfect example of the 'Name it and claim it' type of book we often talk about, and a great conversation demonstrating how a personal connection can build rapport with potential clients, leading to a lifetime relationship.
\n\nThe Debt B Gone website is launching in the coming weeks, so Keep an eye on DebtBGone.org to watch this platform develop.
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/134
\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nTim: Thank you for inviting us.
\n\nStuart: No problem. So do you guys work together, based out of Michigan financial and lawyers and financial advice to the same clients?
\n\nPat: Yeah, not at the same time by trade. We're Tim as a lawyer. Yes.
\n\nStuart: Okay, so that's an interesting dynamic. I think most of the other podcasts we've done have just been with individual authors rather than people who have written together. Don't stop by giving people a bit more of a background on how you guys got started, how the practice came together and the two elements of it.
\n\nTim: First of all, my name is Tim Ash and I have been a lawyer for a little over 30 years now and I'm just pretty much in the area of divorce and family law.
\n\nSo where this debt begone book came about is really out of our own relationship, patty and I. We were going through life. She was a marketing executive for AT&T yellow page portion and her career kind of came to an end and our reality started crashing, in that we had really saved enough money and we haven't planned properly for retirement because we were too busy living paycheck to paycheck, and so that's where I think our life took a turn and we started to explore why it is that we were living paycheck to paycheck and we ran into various people along the way and various needs and so forth, but one of the things was the Dave Ramsey plan taught us to budget and to work together as a couple, and then, through Stan and some other people on the insurance side, taught us about a whole life policy that can literally be used to help us reduce our debts and reduce our savings, and that's where, in about 2018, we came up with the idea of debt begone, our book that's just being published now.
\n\nPat: Let me get it. Tim had mentioned Dave Ramsey. What we just you know what we thought very hard about is the Dave Ramsey program is great, you get out of debt, but what do you have at the end? You have nothing.
\n\nStuart: So your debt starts again.
\n\nPat: So what we had, that's when we went to explore other options and the options of using an insurance chassis to have people save their money and pay out their debts. But at the end, because of an insurance chassis, there's money there for them to use. So that's kind of so. We invested it in our own life, we took it about our own life and started doing that, and now we just want to teach others Because you've had that success, you've experienced it, you've lived through it yourself.
\n\nStuart: So it gives such a real experience to want to be able to share with other people. And then, of course, the professional skills to be able to actually help them, not just suggest to a friend that it would be a good thing to do, but there's tools and resources. You've got to facilitate it for people. While I'm thinking, let me get a cover of the book just up on screen here for anyone who's watching along. There we go, the cover. I love the cover because it's such a it's. I want to say it's uplifting for people just listening. It has a balloon. It's a higher balloon on the cover itself, but it's. It's really uplifting.
\n\nThis idea of whole life and I'm not sure whether so my background is in the IT side of financial services in the UK my past career years ago so it's an area that I've always been interested in. But having worked for the last 10 years with people in the US, the idea of using whole life as a facility, as a well building tool, is something that I'm not familiar with. So I'm not sure whether it's just the products aren't the same coming from the UK, or whether it's a technique that's just not available, but that as an idea, it definitely seems to be less familiar to people rather than more familiar to people. So do you find that in talking to people, this is really the so in the seed of an idea? It's kind of explaining what it?
\n\nis not just something that people know about and you're just offering it to people on it.
\n\nPat: What it is, how it can benefit your life, how it can benefit your portfolio and again, that be gone the products and services that we use to do this. There's a few insurance companies that offer a product that is completely designed for a high rate of return, so that you can then take that money, borrow it from yourself and pay your debts.
\n\nTim: Right. Here's why I'm excited to be here. His 90 minute book is so fantastic, because this is such a new idea. We are now able to tell it by way of a story. Through Patty and I, through our own struggles, we take a little bit of a different turn, but we basically we were in a position in our marriage that we were ready to draw up divorce papers. We did go eventually to bankruptcy to get a fresh start. We've been through a lot of things to get where we're at, but realizing that this whole life policy and this idea of getting rid of debt is more transformative, you have to change your mind. You have to really think differently. So the idea of a story in a book that 90 minute books could help us to draw out is just. It's a fantastic way to plant the seed of a new idea, and I do think this is a new idea.
\n\nStuart: Right, we also refer to the best day books. They're kind of setting the scene for something that people might not know about. It's the opportunity to, in a slightly longer format than just a quick conversation or a page on a website, allows you to get into the details and really starts to build rapport.
\n\nPat: The concept of this. That's really what we call bank on yourself. The concept of banking on yourself has been around a long time, so we took that concept and embellished it with a story. Obviously, like Tim said, we have experienced it, but we embellished it, put characters in it so that you, the reader, can see the happy results of the subject, not just off sitting there and telling them it'll work for them. They can read it, they can see it, they can reflect on it, rather than just a person sitting there trying to represent something.
\n\nStuart: Right. It's such an interesting insight, isn't it? Because, as you say, you could tell someone the same story being sat in front of them. But to a certain degree, particularly if you don't have a rapport yet with them, if they're new to your world, it does feel like people have got their defenses up a little bit. They're expecting to be sold to back, put them on the back foot, whereas consuming something in their own environment.
\n\nEven the idea of kind of like the subliminal authority of a book. That's not necessarily what we're trying to go primarily, but there's definitely a subliminal element to it, subconscious elements. It's a third party vetted body that made sure that these words are on a page and therefore I think they're received in a better way. The idea of writing a book in the first place isn't necessarily something that everyone jumps to. Was that a thought that you'd had for a while, or had you seen other people do something similar?
\n\nTim: We had through our travels of learning about finances through the insurance industry read your family bank and Larry McLean was a big influence on us, on you know this is a great product. Why aren't more people doing it? And so, as we implemented that in our own life and got rid of our own, you know, credit card debt, and now we're managing our debt in a way that we never would have thought of. And so it's to me the biggest factor of going back and looking at why we got into financial trouble. It's not because of how much money we made. We made a lot of money, but we continued to focus on the. Now, you know we didn't look at oh, we should save X amount of dollars every month because it'd be good to have savings. Savings, just it wasn't valued to us.
\n\nAnd now we look at savings as a big value, a big portion of our Dollar amount. We commit two thousand dollars every month to our savings plan through our family bank or bank on myself, whatever you want to call it. But this idea that you hold this money in then and then you can borrow from it is very powerful. But you still have to get rid of that mentality of she was if I want something. Can I afford it? If that's not the right question to ask, it's really do you need it? Do you really want it? The consequences of what it might provide in your family If you were to come become unemployed or your paycheck should go down or inflation should go up those are the kind of concerns that you should be asking. People don't, and that's why they end up living as the way we did Paycheck to paycheck.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's just go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh, so I was just gonna say quickly it is an interesting insight, isn't it? Because it's not necessarily that. It's a the mechanism for making it work. It isn't necessarily Just a tool or a silver box, a silver bullet product. It's a change in mindsets. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
\n\nPat: That's where it has to start if you can't put a budget together and make savings your priority I mean, your government gets so much You're tithing then should be next and then your savings should be that you should be paying yourself.
\n\nRight then we deal with the lifestyle and what we can do. And if you look at someone's lifestyle, they say, well, where am I going to get the $2,000? We're going to get the $500. To do that, I'm strapped. We involve a debt coach. So once they sign on to the concept of wanting to learn, we assign them a debt coach and that debt coach helps them look at where they're spending money, where they're wasting money. Maybe it's Overdraft on checks, maybe it's they're paying double the amount to a visa card because they want to get ahead. Whatever it is, we take a look at that. We find the funds within their own they're on economy and then we apply those funds to the savings that. That becomes their savings.
\n\nTim: It is sorry to go for it.
\n\nI'm just gonna say, as patty's talking about this, the book within it is debt elimination university, and debt elimination university is a five week course which Focuses on first saving your money, knowing what you're, knowing your money, knowing where it goes every month, and then applying that money to Basically taking your savings and applying it to your bank and then watching your bank as it eliminates your debts.
\n\nAnd then, after your debts are over, you can then see where you borrow from yourself Instead of an emergency going to visa. Those three classes are kind of the what I'd call the substantive part of the class, of the teaching. But then the last two are about your Transforming your mind, thinking differently, understanding that you don't have to have it now, or you don't have to keep up with the Joneses, or you need to forgive yourself or some people. You just need to love yourself. Stop, you know, with these comfort type things that you're doing, just Change the perspective of how you look at your life. And then the last class is about hope and vision and gratitude and living your life in a different, transformed way. So it's a part substantive and then it's part transformative through your mind, and I think both of those elements are really important because it does create the full picture.
\n\nStuart: I mean a bandaid over clearing some debts, like you say. It's not necessarily going to be a long-term solution If you get to the end and then you just start the cycle again. Those elements there within the book. It was in relatively straightforward as you were thinking about creating it, what to include and what not to include, or was the sum back and forth on kind of how much is enough to to Share the message and they're not turned into a kind of the next great American novel which would still be on the shelf and not helping anyone, I think the more of the struggle was Because we've taken a website, created classes.
\n\nTim: Patty and I filmed ourselves through these classes that actually you know now I threw the book but now you can go on the website and now it was like, are we going to charge for the classes? Are we going to? You know, this is something that is being done. We're like no, we decided a hard decision was we want to give this away. We want people to just be able to put in this code, you know, a promo code free and be able to go in and look at these classes and get the forms and get the ideology and that way they can figure out themselves. Because it's a process.
\n\nYou may be willing to do one aspect of it but not another, and if you're not doing all the transformative things, then you're really not ready to, let's say, go out and get a whole life policy, because if you're not going to save money, if you don't save money like every month regularly, if that's not part of your plan yet, then you're not ready. You need to get used to that plan. So the website, the book and different things that we're doing are all about trying to give people an idea of whether they really want to move into this type of life or not. Because I could tell you you want to. You want to move into the life. It's a beautiful thing for us not to worry about debt anymore. I mean, it's just freeing.
\n\nPat: Well, and that's the debt coach too is a very specific and very important part of this process, because that debt coach becomes your coach and you tell them what your issues are and that you can't. You know, and that's that debt coach. So, like we talked about, look at their current economy and figure out how they can actually put themselves into a savings position.
\n\nStuart: That's it Interesting way of thinking about it, because you have not only the opportunity to share the knowledge with people through the book and the free course to get them to that first stage, highlighting the importance of the debt coach the fact that it's a difficult thing to do yourself because you've maybe got 20 or 30 years of habit and experience gets you to this place. The likelihood of just reading something or completing something and then switching into a different mindset is quite, quite a challenge. So I can imagine that debt coach and the elements outside of or in between the pages the things aren't necessarily immediately talked about or, if you were trying to do yourself, not immediately written on a list. I imagine those are some of the things that can be the game changer that gets people to thinking about the whole thing in a different way. Do you get much feedback from people in that way to say that the coaching element was really the thing that set them on the right path?
\n\nPat: I would say yes, that is definitely where the rubber meets the road.
\n\nTim: Yes, I think, as we sat down and we met with people along the way, the hardest part is they're not really ready to consistently put savings forward and put it first place, and so that's kind of why our first class is savings is the key. If you can't save money consistently, then you can't get out of paycheck to paycheck living. You're going to continue to increase your debt and your money will be worth less in your economy. It's just a reality. You want to face that reality. We're willing to face it with you. We've done it. We want to help them to come and to be free, and to do that. It isn't. We're working and so this is not a second job for us. This is a desire to want everybody to become debt-free, to have savings, to realize how important savings are and to live financially in a way that it doesn't control their genes anymore. That's the big thing. That was the big thing for us.
\n\nPat: Well, the way we put our program together is at 65, we want everything paid off our office building and our home. Most people don't retire because they still have a mortgage and their retirement won't cover what they need with that house. So they end up selling their house or moving in with their children or getting something smaller that they think they can afford. But those are all reactive things that happen in your life. If you plan and be proactive, those things will never be part of the conversation, because you've now set yourself up to pay your debt, and then debt includes your mortgage.
\n\nStuart: There's those elements of future Stuart and future Tim and future Paddy, being stuck because of past, our own past actions or not really thinking enough ahead. It's kind of overestimating the short term and underestimating the long term. For our parents, absolutely no for Veil and everywhere. Our daughter's 18, she's just working at her first job and we were just submitting some taxes for the first time this year. I was saying to check out with the employer because they might do a pension matching scheme. So you're not going to miss the two or 3% today.
\n\nBut starting at 18, fortunately I was in a position to have a corporate job relatively early on. So for 10 years or so I was getting some pension funding going in there. But for the next 10 years it wasn't what I was thinking about. I was kind of going out on my own and not really I can't even justify by saying didn't have the funds, didn't have the funds but didn't have the foresight to continue that. So now in later years thinking okay, well, there was a good 10 years and now probably a 10 year gap and then thinking about catching up. So the people that you're helping I'm guessing it's more people who are in mid to later life because they're coming to it from having your experience, a good life, living life, not necessarily thinking about the future, building up some debts. So is that mainly the clients, so people who are in the second half rather than the first half, or do you get younger people as well?
\n\nPat: Well, we work with both and let me give you an example of the younger people.
\n\nWe've got children coming out of debt with college debts, I'm sorry, coming out of college with a lot of debt. I worked with one gentleman who went to a local private college, came out with $150,000 in student loans. Most of them are written on his parents, because a student can only take so much out. So we set up a plan, devised a plan to pay his debt off first and then he'll pay his parents debt off as he goes along. So as he accumulates enough, he takes one of those loans, he pays it and then what he was paying on that loan now he puts it back into his bank to accumulate again and then he can pay the next one off. So that's kind of how it works. So, and again, it's a long process that takes more than this to explain what you do with your money, but ultimately he should be out of debt in eight years where some of these people, some of these we have a doctor that's got a $300,000 student loan. I mean, they're carrying a house payment with them and they don't have to be.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's such an interesting option that seems to be so universally applicable. There's more people that this can help than less, but it's something that so few people are aware of. I'm the last person to be a conspiracy theorist, but it definitely makes you question why, what it is about, the way that society is set up, and I don't know whether I don't think there is a room for the people rubbing their hands together and thinking how can we keep this a secret from people? I definitely think there is. An amount of people get overwhelmed and just bury their head in the sand, either intentionally or not, and just live day to day and don't want to think about it, because either it's too overwhelming or confusing.
\n\nPat: They're living their life, they're raising their kids, they're buying bigger houses, they're buying cars. So if we can catch people early to your point, if we could catch them in their 20s and 30s and they're already probably already have a mortgage, they probably already have two car apartments, they probably have student loans, they probably go right on that, relied on that visa to do whatever it had to be done because they're strapped with children. If we can catch them early and change their mindset early, that would be great.
\n\nStuart: That would be great.
\n\nPat: But to the flip side of it is yes, we get, especially with the family law practice, we get people that are going okay, I have to take half my debt Now, I just had to sell my house, whatever they. Now, what do I do? And that's where we say okay, now there's a way you can eliminate these debts, there's a way that you can start your own retirement or your own path so that you because even now you split your retirement you know, dad got half, mom got half. So we get people off stages of life and for all reasons.
\n\nStuart: So that second group is there ever a situation where it's I don't want to say too late, but is there? Well, I guess yeah, is there ever a situation where it is too late? Does this approach require a certain amount of time and just the practicalities of it? I mean, it's, it's at least a period of time, or is there always an option? Or is sometimes that option just well, we can make it less bad?
\n\nTim: Well, if you're, I was speaking to a lady who was in her later sixties and she called about because she was receiving some alimony and her alimony was going to be up in another less than a year, and so she was living on this alimony and I said, well, you know what else? You know what other retirement savings or things do you have? And she didn't have anything. She was living in a house, so the house had value, but she then had an equity loan on the house because she ran into some areas of debt. And then she had a credit card with some, I remember, but it's somewhere under 10 grand. And now it's like, okay, she's getting this $2,000 or so in alimony. What's she going to do? I don't know that. I have an answer for that. I mean, she hasn't saved. She's going to get social security, which is going to replace her alimony, maybe. But people who don't have retirement savings and who haven't made a plan, I don't think you can make a plan for them when they get to 60, 70, 80 years old.
\n\nPat: People start to plan when they run out of money, as opposed to you plan being not run out of money. That's the problem, right.
\n\nStuart: It's the critic dealing with the critical issues, not with the planning ahead. So if there's no runway in terms of time and funds, this isn't a great money out of nowhere For the people who are worried that they've missed the boat and left it a little bit too long. I'm guessing that there's a pretty broad middle ground, from late 30s to 50s maybe, where there is an opportunity to make a difference.
\n\nPat: There are definitely people that we can say I'm sorry, I can't help you because in Tim's situation person didn't work. There was no life that they created for themselves. They lived off of what they were getting. It's gone.
\n\nTim: I think the answer there is that area where this type of thing can make a difference. It's the passion that drives Patty and I to say, hey, we were in this situation. Luckily, we did save some 401k money, we did do some things right, but we didn't end up in bankruptcy. So we understand how we did things wrong as well. So if there's any way we could pass that on to other people that are coming up in the 20s, 30s or certainly by 40s, because we did that 50. We started at really 50 is when Patty was separated from her company and we really realized we'd made a lot of mistakes and eventually started really focusing on what can we do to think differently. It wasn't easy, but now I'm so grateful that we did and now we just want to share that.
\n\nStuart: Yeah kind of our passion and that group in the middle. So there's the young people at this end who've got all the time in the world to make some choices and start small. Even if they start small, just thinking ahead, you've got time on your hands. There's people at the under end of the spectrum that have the ship sailed a little bit. Unfortunately, the time is maybe there's just not enough runway, but this pretty broad middle from 30s to 50s. I imagine that there's a lot of people in that area that you can help in a lot of different situations. Where here's the idea that's been communicated in the book. But if that idea resonates at all, now you guys are bringing in the expertise to say, ok, well, this person, this would be their correct plan and this person would be another correct plan. Exactly, is that what you see? Quite a lot that kind of.
\n\nPat: That's where the debt coach comes in, because they can see all the elements and their job is to do the best program for what the client needs, not what they need with the client needs.
\n\nTim: It is also a reason why we took our age back to in our mid 40s in the book, because that's where we could have really made some really good different changes in our life if we would have taken our own advice right now.
\n\nPat: You can answer your point some of the characteristics that we're looking for. Obviously we want them employed. They should have exponentially. There should be debt and mortgages always something that's good to demonstrate how quickly you can get out of debt and pay your mortgage.
\n\nStuart: Right, which again isn't what people are thinking. They think in terms of 30 years and it just always being a payment there. So presenting the options with something that's easy for people to understand, but in a very different framework, must make quite a difference.
\n\nPat: One of the beautiful things is that when they do borrow from themselves, that money is tax free. Right Borrowing tax free. They can pay up their debts tax free.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nPat: So and then obviously, they can either choose to pay themselves back or they can choose not to, but depending on where they're at in life.
\n\nStuart: And that must give quite an amplifying effect. So not only do you have the access to the money in the first place a very different interest rate from borrowing on credit cards but the debt free element of it must kind of amplify the fact that sorry tax free money, that tax money that you're saving, can then be reinvested and make the part even bigger. There's really some synergies to it. Yeah, you guys are up in Michigan, right? Yes, and most of the clients you deal with locally, or are you expanding further field?
\n\nTim: Mostly it's local at this point.
\n\nPat: Yeah. But the book will go to anybody, so we'll help anybody Right. We just have to have a debt coach that's licensed in that state, which is not a problem. Right, yes we can help anybody in any state, but yet to start this process and to get it rolling, we're focusing on Michigan and that's what we say, that to people all the time.
\n\nStuart: This idea of kind of 50 mile famous. If you're going to expend any effort and energy into sharing the message, it's not that you're going to turn away out of state people and say sorry, we can't, the doors are closed. But the effort to get the ball rolling makes so much sense to do it locally, even in terms of just the narrative and the stories and the experience and the frame of references talking to people who are within that local area. Just the conversations that you have with people are going to be more connected because you're physically there as well.
\n\nPat: Well, if you affect one, you can affect many, you know, and that's so we're going to look to, you know, our church as an example. How can we introduce us to our congregation? Those are the types of face to faces that we anticipate, but we certainly online campaign that will start once this book is published is, you know, obviously another way for us to try to reach people that we can't touch physically.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, so that rolls into kind of the cult action on the book and the back cover and what ideally you'd want people to do next after receiving it, either from an online campaign or a friend, referring them for the best value for them and the useful way that you can help. Someone gets a copy of the book. What's the best first step for them to take next?
\n\nTim: And next step is to contact a debt coach, to engage a debt coach, and then go through the pages of the book with, you know, the debt elimination program, each class doing the homework. I would also engage at the same time with the computer, because the classes help not just on the pages. Maybe read the book first and say, well, I'm interested or I'm not. Then maybe take the next step and go to the computer classes and maybe understand a little bit more. You know, at some point, though, that debt Coach is going to have to be pivotal. If you really want to make real change in your life, you're going to have to have somebody that comes alongside of you, help you financially, transfer form your mind.
\n\nStuart: And I guess that's both from like the knowledge and the encouragement, but also the accountability. It's difficult to break your own habits without.
\n\nPat: Absolutely that debt coach. You know the intention is to have that debt coach stay with you until all your debts are paid off.
\n\nStuart: Right.
\n\nPat: So to help you focus on what you should pay off, first things of that nature. So they'll stay with you until you're out of debt.
\n\nStuart: Which builds a relationship and more of a rapport and get to know your person.
\n\nPat: Yeah, it's hard, and at that point that debt coach can figure out what else that client might need. Right, the first and foremost, you cannot retire if you're carrying a bunch of debt. Right, you just can't Poor planning. So you know you got to start somewhere and get rid of your debt, and then we'll start focusing on the other stuff.
\n\nTim: Right and see I go different. I go no, you have to learn how to save money first. If you don't have any money to save, then I don't know how you can even begin to pay your debts, because it's only going to come back to you.
\n\nPat: I kind of said that, with savings being a given, Wow, savings is never a given.
\n\nTim: It's in our country. It's like people save less than 5% of their income and that's even generous to say that. Right, there's a lot of them. They don't save, they just have a negative position. If they need money, the card breaks down, they go to Visa or at consolidation or something along those lines. It's no that you've got to be able to set aside. How much money do you want to save every month and then make a 10-year commitment to that? You know, I understand things happen and maybe, but you're totally willing to make a 30-year commitment on your house. What the heck's the problem with making a 10-year commitment on your savings? Right, it's a mindset. And people, they just don't have that money. They don't pay $600 for the car for seven years, $600, but tell them they have to save $600 for 10 years and they totally freak out.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, like I said, that mindset change. You were talking about the videos that you recorded. Do you both record videos as part of the program?
\n\nPat: Yes, yes, yeah.
\n\nStuart: I think that's an interesting dynamic that it brings even in the approach that you were just talking about a couple of seconds ago, a very slightly different approach to really the same thing. But the fact that there are the two of you, you're going to resonate with people in different ways or people are going to pick up on the different points. I think that's an advantage over just an individual right in the book. It's just their perspective.
\n\nPat: Yeah, you read people and you figure out. You know, tim, I think this person is better with you, or Patty, I think you should talk to them. You just read their body language or dynamics, what they're made of, and then you figure out how you want to approach them. But definitely, I mean, what do we say? The average American can't even afford a $400 emergency.
\n\nTim: Right, but it's scary, isn't it? Yes, the thing is, we realized, in talking to people, though, people are different stages and they'll sit here and they'll tell you oh yeah, I'm ready to do this, but then, when it comes right down to it, they're not. Or maybe they do it for a year and then they, you know, and that doesn't do any of us any good. I mean, this has got to be a win-win. You've got to really want to transform. If you don't keep going through the classes until you get it, or until you really desire that you want to, you might read the book and go well, that was an interesting story, and I think I really I like what Tim and Patty are doing, but it's not for me. Okay, that's fine. Or you could say well, I'm interested in this, I'll take the next step and I'll sign up for the classes. Or maybe you're so enthusiastic about it, you do the book and you sign up for the classes and you get the dead coach. You get the whole thing and you try to figure out what else can.
\n\nI know, and that's the person that we're kind of looking for you want to really help someone who really wants to help themselves.
\n\nStuart: And, as you say, you don't know what stage people are at and often I guess they don't know what stage they're at. So at least by reaching people at the top of the funnel, at the beginning of their thought process even if it takes them a year or two to get to the point that they're ready to work with you at least you've started that conversation and given some that can value and the opportunity to stay in touch until they are ready to go and hopefully at that point they're fully engaged and ready to jump on and make those choices to have a different outcome and I think it's exactly about planning the seed.
\n\nTim: That's what you do you plant the seed, you wait. We fully expect that this is a new concept or it's an old concept that's bringing in a new way, whatever way you look at it. But we're saying, okay, we're not here, we're not living on this, we're not making a. You know, we're not looking at making money on this, we're looking to form lives. That's what we want to do. So if it takes two or three years to get where people catch on, but it's like fire, though, once something catches on right it takes off Right, it goes and goes fast.
\n\nStuart: That's what we're excited looking at, that we're seeing a lot of transformed lives.
\n\nTim: We're seeing American people who are, and we're seeing the debt. You know that. What's the calculation of debt? Now, we want to see that go down overall. We want to see people saving money not 5%, but maybe 15%, you know, let's see that number. That'd be a great number to see. So that's what is exciting.
\n\nPat: And when you put it into perspective and we use pie charts to show people what their reality is. And the reality is that what over what would we say? 41% is generally lifestyle, a little over 30s debt.
\n\nStuart: I mean so?
\n\nPat: that slice of savings is so small it hardly shows up. So you know, when they see how they're living and they see what they should be doing, then they start to. But like Jim said, you can take a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.
\n\nTim: They have to decide.
\n\nPat: They have to decide. This is a personal decision.
\n\nTim: And that's what the book and our website, that's what you know. We don't want to force anybody to do anything, but we want to give everybody a good idea of what they could be in life, how free, how financially free and otherwise they could be free to make better decisions in their lives. Free to, you know, enjoy things that they never thought of before. You know that kind of thing.
\n\nStuart: And the psychological freedom like you started off by saying to free up from that baggage, that overhead, of having that constant worry all the time is life changing.
\n\nPat: Oh yeah, it is so joyful to be able to take a breath and know that I don't have the debt that I had, and it's so joyful to know, at 65, I'm going to have a choice Do I want to retire or not?
\n\nStuart: Because my house is paid for. So if I you know if I can.
\n\nPat: There's so many more options open to you if you don't have debt.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah.
\n\nPat: That opens up the options of everybody to be.
\n\nStuart: So, again, super appreciate the time coming on. It's so. It's been really enjoyable the last couple of episodes I've done speaking with people who are clearly passionate about what they do. You can kind of see it and feel it coming through, not only in the books that we're helping people write but in the conversations that we have here. So where's the best place for people to find out more, as they're listening to this and want to kind of jump on board or just see what you're doing, where's the best place for them to go?
\n\nTim: It would be a go to our W dot debt B, just a B, not B, e, b goneorg, that be goneorg. It's the best way to get information on our website, and so forth.
\n\nStuart: Perfect. Well, I'll make sure there's a link to this in the show notes and the and the web page that goes along with it. So as people are listening, they can just click on the show notes on their podcast player or a lot of people go to the website, so we'll make sure there are links there and the cover of the book. As I say, it's one of my favorites because it's a lot brighter than the others and it really kind of communicates that uplifting opportunity.
\n\nPat: You're free. Freedom You're free.
\n\nStuart: Right, my grandparents lived in Bristol when I was a kid in the UK and there's a big Bristol balloon festival, so it's it's personally resonating.
\n\nFor that reason, I just want to say thanks again for your time. It's been a real pleasure to go through the process and it's really exciting to see the book come to fruition and get out there. One of the other things that's also exciting for us on this side is we're obviously we've done a thousand books with people now, so we see people go through the process and some people do more and some people do less and like with your clients not everyone's ready or they've come and joined the program. They're not always ready to go all the way through, but the fact that you've got a program that's built around it, there's a framework within the book. There's the introduction with the idea, there's the online courses that helps people even more, your videos and then the service itself, that holistic approach, so that wherever people are, they can come and board the train and there'll be something waiting for them. So, yeah, highly recommend everyone going over to debtbegonorg and then check out what Tim and Pat have done.
\n\nPat: Thank you.
\n\nStuart: No problem. Thank you guys, really appreciate it. Everyone thanks for listening. Again, as I say, if you're looking on the podcast player, then head over to the website to just make sure that you get the show notes and we will catch everyone in the next one. Thank you.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Tim & Pat Ash, Divorce Attorneys and Financial Advisors from Farmington Hills, Michigan, about their latest book _Debt B Gone_.\r\n\r\nI love speaking with people who want to write a book that helps people, and it's even more engaging when it's based on a personal experience.\r\n\r\nTim & Pat created their framework to help people see debt differently. Based on their journey of financial freedom, it's a process that's helped many clients change their lives, and they saw the opportunity to start many more conversations using a book to introduce the approach.\r\n\r\nIt's the perfect example of the 'Name it and claim it' type of book we often talk about, and a great conversation demonstrating how a personal connection can build rapport with potential clients, leading to a lifetime relationship.\r\n\r\nThe Debt B Gone website is launching in the coming weeks, so Keep an eye on [**DebtBGone.org**](https://www.debtbgone.org/) to watch this platform develop.","date_published":"2023-04-16T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/32ea132f-3d36-4c0f-acdf-c22fdfc148c1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":27997429,"duration_in_seconds":2258}]},{"id":"4f379219-66ad-4fbf-a921-7754a7a923a1","title":"Ep133: Maximizing Your Assets with Brannon Poe","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/133","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Brannon Poe, Founder of Poe Group Advisors, a US and Canadian firm specializing in helping owners optimize, buy or sell accounting practices.\n\nBrannon has authored three books with us, and today we get to talk not only about his approach but also about how each of his books supports a different part of the conversation he has with potential clients.\n\nThis is a business with very long nurture times, and it's not unusual for it to take years for someone to become a client, so Brannon talks about the opportunities his books create to stay in touch with people and add value, no matter how the conversation goes.\n\nThis is a great call with someone who has mastered a book's potential to start a conversation, and it really highlights the many ways the assets he has in his books can be maximized.\n\n\nLINKS\nBrannon Poe\nPoe Group Advisors\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/133\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n****\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got a great guest, Brannon. Brannon, welcome to the podcast, thank you. Thank you, stuart, glad to be here, great to have you. I was saying in last week's show I talked to someone here that I've spoken to before, which is a little unusual. Usually I've spoken to people at least in a call or a quick on boarding call. Brannon, yours in a slightly different situation again, because I feel like I know you because we've got some mutual connections in the background. You're on your third book now, so as a name I've obviously seen it passing through the system a lot, but it's I feel like I know you more because we've got third party connections, both through Dean and another friend of ours, dave. So it's great to make a connection. For the sake of the audience who haven't yet had the introduction, tell us a bit more about what you guys do and a bit of your background. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, I'm a CPA and I started my career with Xinjiang and quickly realized that Publix was not for me and I started selling CPA firms in the year 2003. So we've been on it for about 20 years and that's what we do. We sell firms in the US and in Canada, and in 2020, we launched a up, an online workshop called Accounting Practice Academy, and that's when we started our first book with you guys, and Academy has really helped. We help accountants who own a practice, help them do much better and get their hours down and get their profits up. \n\nStuart: And is that always with the intention of selling them Eventually, or are some people in the program just to exponentially grow what they've got? \n\nBrannon: It's interesting. I've always been curious about you know, I've been coached myself and I'm a believer in business coaching and I had this sort of vision for launching a program for accountants many years ago, and it's very difficult to get a platform off the ground in person the things that the coach has done and some of these other networks. It's really pretty remarkable because it's hard to get people to travel and get that thing started, so a lot of times what you have to do is you start privately and then you can build it up once you have a following, and I just wanted to launch something that would help accountants. I felt like we had a lot of knowledge. We actually wrote our first book in 2010 and I wrote it old, hard way, the old fashion, and that was the first sort of where we put our knowledge into, and I never intended it to be a get ready for a sale program. \n\nAnd then I got accused of that. Like when we launched it said you're doing this to feed your brokerage business and honestly that wasn't the intent, but that has been the effect. So it has been a good feeder because a lot of times people when they're thinking about selling, that's when they really think, okay, I need to get my business in shape for a sale. So we have all sorts of people in. We have people who are selling, we have younger people who just want to build a good foundation. \n\nStuart: You mentioned, the people often have the thought of making some improvements or the catalyst for taking that step is an external trigger of thinking about selling, or I'm guessing that some people have had an external event that kind of wakes them up and snaps them out of it a little bit. Those two groups of people the younger guys who are just looking to exponentially grow but they're really in it, and the people who are thinking, okay, this is maybe I need to do something, ready to sell the get self, and very similar people to be coached. And there's suggestions that are being made because underlying gets the same things that need to happen whether you're looking to grow and stay in it or grow it to get out of it. I'm guessing the fundamentals are the same but the approach might be different. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, Our program is very much about fundamentals and mindsets. Those are to be more universal and they apply to young people, older people, doesn't matter where you are, they're fundamentals. \n\nStuart: And. \n\nBrannon: I think the only difference is like sometimes there's more energy and excitement in the younger crowd because they've never. Some of these mindsets are very new to them and for some of the more experienced CPAs that are going through the program they're reminders, and but they still need the reminder. \n\nStuart: And I guess there must be a frustration to a certain degree, and the more experienced group have. This is something that I should have known years ago. That can be a frustration in that. Yeah. \n\nBrannon: I've had a couple of people say the only thing I regret about taking this is that it didn't take it 10 years ago. \n\nStuart: Yeah, Is that old and out of. The best time to plant a tree was 100 years ago. The second best time is today and without a time machine, just crack on in today's of the day to yeah, exactly yeah. My wife years ago as a in between she's a teacher. So in between some jobs she was helping people with like home organizing, getting things squared away like an English Marie Curie type not Marie Curie, that was completely different Marie. \n\nBut she really did that for a short period of time and enjoyed the actual work of it. But what made it and immediately go back into teaching was she said that it was turned into only 10% of the fundamentals of organization and getting things sorted out and then 90% was marriage guidance. I'm just all the psychological elements of why people weren't doing the obvious steps. There's a slightly more professional environment so you're probably not doing so much marriage guidance but I imagine a lot of it is more around the mind. There's an animat of it which is definitely associated with the mindsets and the psychology and not necessarily with the knots and bolts or numbers of the CPA practice. \n\nBrannon: We did a lot of studying when we're creating the, what we did a lot of studying about change, human change how do you create change in people? And that's an interesting like. That's a whole topic of its own. That's extremely interesting, and we all know our own. I think people have their own goals to changing, and so one of the things that we really focus on in the workshop is honing in on what those are for people. We call it FTIs failure to amend so we get people to become very aware of where they've had problems changing in the past and also aware of where they've succeeded. Okay, here's that. If I want to change, this has worked for me in the past. Maybe it's how you lost weight or how you started a next program, and those are the same things that apply to changing your business. \n\nStuart: It's interesting to see because my background is IT, project management and the very kind of should frame or was. \n\nThis is going back a few years now, but there was a very structured framework around the work that we did and a lot of that coming out of projects was the kind of post-mortem at the end of every projects to try and get that lessons learned, and it's definitely the case that as an exercise wasn't utilized as much as it could have been. \n\nThe theory around it is that every project going forward then looks at the lessons learned, not only to avoid problems but also pick up on best practices. But it's something that I don't think I've ever seen anyone else talk about outside of those management disciplines and the idea of taking that extra time to look at where those successes and failures were and think about taking that moment to think about the thinking of what was successful and what wasn't. That, I think, is a it's a difficult to sell in coaching programs to say that one of the main what a main thing that you're going to get out of this is the fact that it's a period of time away from the day to day just to think about the thinking of this. But the benefits of that. It's really quite an intangible it's. I don't know if you've experienced the same or you get that same feedback from your members. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, we we've been a little bit surprised at how people have taken action. Like, we built this hoping and thinking that, okay, that this is going to work, because we did do a lot of individual things prior to building a program. That's a group model and it was. But we were blown away that people are taking action in such a big fashion and we thought that's going to be the hardest thing to have to do. \n\nWe can give all the great ideas and their business, because most of the people that come into our program are very busy. They're actually over scheduled and so it's very tempting for them just to fall back into their old habits, and so we were aware of that. Going in, it's like how do we keep people to make moves here? How do we get to make the change? Take all these great ideas and put them into action, and I feel like we built the right amount of accountability. Accountability is a big component of it and also with the awareness and making the idea simple and not over complicating things If it's complicated, people are just not gonna. \n\nStuart: Practical implication of understanding all of a complex model is difficult enough. But when you add that, particularly, as you say, if people are over scheduled and that's one of the main reasons why they raise an ad and say, hey, I need some, I need to do something different Dump in a whole load of extra complicated stuff, the likelihoods with the best will and the likelihood of that being done is slim. So breaking it down into bite-sized chunks, that kind of bridges nicely into kind of the book conversation, because we often have this. I think I said it in last week's show as well. I was saying that we have a lot of conversations with people who are coming with ideas, but the ideas are coming from that 10 years of experience perspective. \n\nI need to tell people this level of information where really the majority of books, where we're trying to engage with people, is at this level. It's the 101 introduction. They're just starting their journey, so don't over complicate it by delivering the 202 level of knowledge. It's starting at that position. So for you guys in the program, was it intentional or a happy coincidence to really I don't want to say strip back, but really think about the simple implementation steps? \n\nBrannon: Absolutely. We wanted to make this very simple, very bite-sized. There were a lot of programs, when we looked at our competition, that were and I think this is, you know, this is an interesting thing about professionals in a lot of different professions. I see it in law, for sure, and in accounting, and there's, like you mentioned, it's this hey, I've got to show my knowledge. I've got to that more is more like if I write a, if I? \n\nwrite a 2000 page book or if I come up with a super complicated, people are going to value that more somehow. And it's the opposite, because people need something actionable. They don't, they won't. They don't need to know how much. They need to know what you know. That will actually move the needle for them. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and yeah, they start in their journey. That's the exact thing to bear in mind. That it's they're starting their journey. It's great to have additional things later, but it's the wrong place to have it at the beginning part of that conversation. Whether the conversation is just sales discovery call at the very early part or importing into the early days, it's. \n\nI made that mistake last. At the end of last year, someone invited me to dial into a webinar to give a quick presentation on some book things and I just finished the school card book that goes through the eight book mindsets. So I was probably overly proud of that. It is super valuable, but it's not a. It's not the first part of the conversation. It's the second or third part of the conversation. The invitation that I got was to really talk to a group of people who hadn't necessarily thought about writing a book at all and trying to deliver in a short period of time these eight mindsets, which is super useful, but not if you're going from. I've never even thought about writing a book. What's the benefit? So completely the little postmortem that I did myself afterwards completely judge the the right level and not that I was intentionally trying to show how much like overwhelm with how much we know, but just trying to deliver too much of the wrong value or the right value, but at the wrong time. \n\nBrannon: So it is really a balancing act it is, and you've got to keep people engaged, and so there's got to be entertainment value. We hired a coach to help us build the program from the perspective of just engagement, like human engagement, because a lot of our programs are video, there's a video component, and so we wanted to keep people engaged. And one of the things I'll never forget she told me that our coach was think about a Hollywood movie, like you turn into a side Miami. When there's crime scene investigators, investigation movies, what's the first thing that happens in the first? Yeah, the drama in the dead body. \n\nDead body there's always dead body right away and she's you got to have that. You need that in your, in your videos is what's your dead body in the first minute? \n\nStuart: it's you got to capture people do you know what it's such an interesting thing. We've had a lot of conversations in the last few days and this could be a whole other conversation. Maybe we do another podcast at some point in the future, diving into this little bit. So I've had so many conversations the last couple of weeks or couple of months talking about the chat, gpt type, revelation moment and abundance 360 is on at the moment. So we've been dialing into those live streams this idea of of content being much more easily generated through ai. But I think the point can't be done is this idea of engagement. So a base level of content is going to go from here to here, because it's easier for people to create that generation of relevant stuff just gets done. \n\nBut when you think about it in terms of your program, let's say, for example, we're three years down the track generating video modules that go along with your core agenda, that might get easier from an ai perspective, but that idea of delivering the engaging content that's not necessarily going to be there and not there in the way that that is into your brand, to you, your way of doing things. So for you to have gone through those steps to think about, okay, we're going to make some content that is engaging, that keeps people, gives them a hook to get tuned into, to raise that energy level, and then it's tailored to our program, so we've got some personality and perspective on top of it. That's going to be such a difference maker because the baseline is being raised, like everyone not everyone, but more people are going to be able to go from zero to something, to be able to go from something to something better. That's going to be a challenge and it looks like that was quite a big thing that you addressed in the setup. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, it was something we were very aware of, because people can only read so much at one time, people can only listen for so long at one time, so you have to bring in and you have to engage them and sometimes leave some space in there and there's a science to it. \n\nStuart: For sure, and that idea of leaving the space around the logical steps as someone is coming in from not knowing who you are at all to having some introduction that gets them to a landing page or something or a podcast or something that allows them the opportunity to raise their hand through those first three points to the call to action. \n\nThat minimum viable step of what text it is such a go from nothing to something is the 80%. Spend a lot of time saying to people don't get too hung up on it, at least in the first iteration, get the first working version out there and then you can always tweak but the dial in and the refining it. Once you've got that space to think about refining it is quite a step. So you mentioned you've got three books I guess four books and a traditional book and then three books that you're writing with us. The first one was the unplugged vacation, which I'm guessing comes from this idea that you've got a lot of over subscribed people. Do you want to talk about that one a little bit and what the impetus behind the book was and who the audience was that you were trying to serve? \n\nBrannon: Yeah, the unplugged vacation was addressing the major issue that our clients have. And I had a call with a younger CPA years ago and he said he wanted to sell us. And I started asking him like do you enjoy what you do? Yeah, I like the profession, I love my clients, I'm engaged, I love my staff, like everything's good. He was just burned out. \n\nI said when's the last time you had a vacation? And it had been quite a while for him. And I said look, before you sell your paper, go, take a week off, go somewhere really cool. Don't take your laptop, don't take your smartphone, go and just completely unplug and then come back and see if you like your business. He's still in practice. Okay, yeah, I knew this was a need because so many people in today's world, so many people are staying connected all the time. They don't disconnect and our brains need to unravel and it's actually a big benefit to your business. And so that was. And we give this book out at conferences. We took it to an AI CPA conference in Las Vegas right when we published it and we printed off a couple of copies and we were just handed off. So we would come up to people and say do you check email when you're on vacation? \n\nAnd they would be like, yeah, we're like you need to read this book, and they would take the book, they'd put it under their arm and walk around the conference. We saw these orange books all over the conference, so it was great for that. \n\nStuart: It's such a so many opportunities to use books in different ways. We've done some podcasts in the past talk about some of those different ideas but the fact that there's a relatively straightforward way of getting it created it's not the traditional publishing lock yourself in a cabinet and six months and thousands of dollars of editing. So there's a vast cost effective way of creating something. And then, once you've got the asset, the tool, there's a suite of ways in which you can use it. And even if you're using it in the print sense and using it as a kind of elaborate business card in conferences the cost of printing them, I think, even if we include shipping, which is obviously the heavy things, that adds to it a bit but $3 or so to get something printed. Trying to get something printed or the Merchie give it away, type G ball type things that people do at conferences which are debatably affected of value that's created in this thing because it's sharing something. There is an element of it's one of the psychological tricks, if you like all the book the fact that it exists and it's printed on the page. It carries so much more weight than just a brochure or a letter or a pen with your name on it. It's really interesting to think about those ways, now that you've done the work of creating something, the ways that you can use it. \n\nThat conversation with people do you take? Do you check email on vacation? It's such a great follow up question. So we often talk about, now that you've got the book, the autoresponder, when someone opts in for a copy, those five or six touch points is the opportunity to get that conversation going. And second email so the first email is delivering the book, the second email we refer to as beer email, a short personal expecting a reply, that do you check emails when you're on vacation. It's such a disarming and that opens up the gates to a conversation. I imagine that's something that has resonated with you guys and then with the people you asked the question. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, the expressions on their faces were very interesting to watch, it was. \n\nStuart: It's not. It's not what you would expect someone to ask you, and it's. It forces you to stop and think for a second before answering it. Yeah. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, we got a lot of different answers and some people was like, of course doesn't everybody. \n\nStuart: How could you not yeah? \n\nBrannon: So it was an interesting and we had a great conference because there was, I think, about 2000 people there, so it was a lot of people to test it out. \n\nStuart: On An idea of writing a book sparked by the conversation with that CPA. Is that a book? Obviously, there's two more followed on from that. So we're thinking in terms of very different funnels and different approaches, different opportunities for people to come into the world. Has that first book, the unplugged vacation one, do you find that is typically used as like a lead generation piece at the top of the funnel to people who don't know you, or is it more like a lead conversion piece? People come in maybe from different channels, but this is a great way of people who are aware of you, of elevating the conversation and sparking a different thought process. \n\nBrannon: because it's an engaged question, that's a it's a little bit of a difficult thing for us to answer because we are a very heavy content driven company and we're very, if you think about our transactional. We broke our CPA firms, so most of our business is extremely transactional and our sales cycle is very lengthy. So sometimes I'll talk to people five, even 10 years before they want to sell. \n\nSo we have this lengthy pipeline and we've used it both as a lead generation like at the conference with people who didn't know us, and we've used it as a conversation follow-up. So let's say I'm nurturing a long-term lead, someone who's thinking about selling their business, and they call me three, four years prior and they're burned out, and I've just from a conversation that I might have with them on a common follow-up call. Then I go oh, I've got this book for you, let me send this to you, and so I think it helps nurture the relationship even more. And we, when you think about our product, it's a very high value, it's a high trust type of yeah. \n\nStuart: And that rapport building the fact that there are all different tools that you can deploy depending on how the conversation goes. Again, it's an asset that's created in one point of time, that's useful for decades down the track to be able to pull out as something that really adds value to the conversation. Because I imagine that it's not thinking about that example. You're checking back in with someone years down the track. This happens to come up in conversation, sending them that copy of the book. It's not closing in the sense of it's not jamming in a sales tool into a conversation. It's really all value and helpful information and building that relationship even more, knowing that it is such a long lead time for conversions. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, exactly. If you're in any kind of sales work and the sales cycle is really lengthy, you'll learn really quick. You can't push people when they're not ready. \n\nStuart: I talked about the. I've mentioned it on a couple of shows recently. There was a book that someone had recommended years ago. I think it's actually out of print now. It's called One Selling by an Australian academic called Michael Gleason, and here's I can't one. That is an acronym for something and the fact that he's Australian. That's why I'm guessing that's what led to the title. \n\nBut one of the things that he talks about in that book is this idea of check moves. So here's work with sales teams is that the sales people are never finally in control of the sale. That's always in the hands. They're the ones that make the decision. So it's misplaced to incentivize or track sales people on closures. What you should be tracking is closing opportunities, so what he'll check moves. So every time you do an outreach they would lead to a close check that track that. \n\nAnd it's really horses the bit that you said. You can't force someone into it, but by staying there as a trusted partner, as a trusted advisor or someone useful in their world, knowing that will, being there at the point that they decide that today is the day for them, is the secret, and this being another Even then. Again, we sometimes have conversations with people who are talking about books and want to put the cart before the horse and run down the track of thinking about five before they've even done one. But even if you had one book to be able to pull out a use, full chapter or useful takeaway that kind of reinforces the conversation, and then follow up with the book by using it to deliver more value, you definitely don't three or four. It can be done with one. It's just thinking about ways of now I've got this asset, how can I use it in a way that adds value? That leads to the second book. The second book was positioned slightly differently. Don't give us a bit of a background on that one. \n\nBrannon: So we the second book was scaling, scaling cloud firms. In the last, I'd say, five to seven years, we've seen an increasing number of fully virtual CPA firms that are being sold now, and I think these firms were probably started being created maybe 2010 ish, and so we really didn't see any sales of those firms until a few years afterwards. And it's becoming a bigger and bigger part of our business. So we thought, hey, we'd like to get out front as the thought leader and be useful in this industry. So we essentially took some of our knowledge, put it in the book for scaling, knowing that a lot of these cloud firm owners are very entrepreneurial and they're very interested in growth. A lot of those firms grow very quickly, so that's what they're interested in, and so we wrote something to help them and then, hopefully, if they're interested in acquiring or selling, they'll think of us when that time comes. \n\nStuart: Such a great way of thinking about a niche, like taking a moment to think about the trajectory of the industry as a whole or if there's a segment coming up and, like you say, there's an opportunity with being the first to market with something that introduces the idea. \n\nAnd it doesn't need to be like the book itself is 70 pages or so. It's not like you wrote again six months in a cabriolet and writing the 2000 page tome on cloud computing. It's just hitting the idea because, as you said, these are long converting opportunities into dynamic and moving environment. So it's in the idea, always knowing that there's more stuff off book, out of book. There's kind of building on it. It really allows you to be quite lean and move quickly to get something up there. That introduces a fascinating thought process to think about the different assets that you've got in the books. There's like a founding fundamental walk addressing a problem that a lot of people have got. There's a new early market. Here's a thought technology that is evolving as we speak, and then the third book, trying to talk about the third book and where that sits in the spectrum. \n\nBrannon: So the third book, which it's one of those ideas like why didn't I have this idea 10 years ago? It's how to prepare your CPA firm for a sale. So we actually had a white paper that was about 10 pages long called our succession planning guide, which has been very successful, and now that we have the business alongside the brokerage business, this sort of serves both audiences. We felt like this would be a great tool for promoting our coaching business. \n\nIt would also be a great tool for people that don't really want to be coached but might want some easy sort of low hanging fruit ideas to get their business in shape to sell and then hopefully, if we give them value and it's helpful, when they do go to sell, they'll call us. \n\nStuart: And that's exactly the point, isn't it? \n\nIt's not like the job of work of the book is close those people immediately, it's to make them aware of you so all of your potential clients could be interested in that book, whether it's today or 10 years down the track. \n\nSo it thinking of the books is that first step, and I think that's a big difference between the 90 minute book approach and the traditional approach. \n\nThe traditional book either publishes the thinking about it in terms of the book itself being the product. Therefore it needs to be so big and it needs to be. It needs to be able to justify a $20 hardback cost and we want to sell 20,000 of them or it's people think about traditional type of books is I want to put all of my knowledge in here so that people are overwhelmed by the book, so that they immediately throw me up asking to do business with me and it does complete the sale cycle for me, when the practicality of that, the reality is that's not the case. It's like you've described customers who are one to 10 year journey of absorbing information and then at some point they're going to be ready. The benefit of the books that you've created is it starts that conversation and to a certain degree, in their mind, you've adopted the incumbent position. It doesn't guarantee that they'll come to you, but it certainly makes it more likely. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, and it gets them in our funnel right. It gets them in our ecosystem of content, which we're big content creators. It's a great tool and I think it's also even if it's a 50 page book, you're still an author and you're still. It gives you credibility in your space and people don't want to read a long book, not busy professionals I had. When we got back from the Las Vegas conference that I talked about earlier, I got an email from a gentleman who was there and he said hey, I read your book and, coming back from the conference and can you send me five or six other copies, I want to send this to some of my CPA buddies that I know, sure what's your address, and we send him five other copies or 10 other copies or whatever. And it doesn't have to be a long read and, matter of fact, it's better if it's not for most busy people. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's this idea of your thing, the idea of, like, how to sell the CPA practice or how to put it to be. That could be a college credit course. You could have like months and months worth of stuff that could go into it or scale it back. It could be 200 pages or scale it back further. It could introduce the idea and the concepts and deliver the beginnings of value and then give people the way to get more. It's the start of the conversation. It's such a key difference because, like you say, it makes it more likely that it will be read and it makes it more likely that it will done, because you started off the call by talking about the first traditional book you did and it was more painful than the last three. So, with them being busy, the likelihood of going from nothing to something is way more valuable than going from, from not having thinking about doing something but not actually having it, because you never get it finished. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, and only that, but I think the two, the mindset that I would encourage people that are writing a book and thinking about it is it's better if it's not long and just give them the real meaty stuff. Don't be afraid to give them stuff that's really going to help them, because the more you think about helping your reader, more that book is going to do the job that you want it to do, right their authenticity and their value comes across. \n\nStuart: People can tell if you're holding things back or if it's just superficial, and then the call to action is when I need to come into the office and, well, lock the door behind you and I'll grab you for two hours. \n\nIt's working these times, super, appreciate it's your time. I would be really great at some point and they're not teachers in the future to jump on another call and talk about the. You guys are such big in terms of content and delivering value beyond the book, so it'd be really great to jump on another call at some point if you've got time to really dive into that, because you guys have got not only the ability to create that content but you've got a mindset of creating it and continuing to deliver value, and the books feed into that funnel and trigger some of it and their anchor points for some of those later conversations. So that whole ecosystem that you've got of having various different assets that you plug together and I'm sure it's now in a situation or known date which is much more advanced than it was to begin with. So if you have time at some point and not to just in future be great to dive into that a little bit more. \n\nBrannon: Yeah, be happy to we. In fact, we are in the process of reorganizing our website because we have so much content that we found out that, hey, our content's a bit scattered, so we need to bring it into one hub and have it all Easter. At least you can find your path to it fairly easily, and maybe that'll be a good point to touch back with you. \n\nStuart: Yeah, and we can do. You can share the kind of before and after, because I think it is it's an organic problem. It starts off. You're not a content creation business as such, so you didn't start off by building everything to scale to 100 people consuming the content, and I think this is the problem that everyone gets. You start off by having a blog and then maybe having a YouTube channel and then it just gets very spread out so to be able to consolidate it and link it together. Yeah, that'd be a point to do that. Thanks again for your time. I don't want to make sure that people have got access to check out more of what you guys do. So what's a great resource or place for people to go to find out more? \n\nBrannon: best place is just good on our website, which is ho group advisorscom. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. We'll make sure we put some links in the show notes for it, both on the podcast feed and the website of the episode. So as you listen to this, check that out. Obviously, if you've got any interest, if you're CPA firm and you've got interested in the coaching side of the business or you're thinking about selling or setting it up that way, but even if you're in any other business, recommend checking out just to see what what Brannon and the guys are doing. This has been really enjoyable. Like I said, a million questions. I could think we could talk for another hour, but that'd be really good to check back in again. So thanks again for your time this morning. Thanks everyone for listening. Definitely check out the show notes. We'll put the link there to Po Group Advisors. And thank you, we'll catch you in the next one. \n\nBrannon: Thank you, Stuart. Look forward to coming back. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Brannon Poe, Founder of Poe Group Advisors, a US and Canadian firm specializing in helping owners optimize, buy or sell accounting practices.
\n\nBrannon has authored three books with us, and today we get to talk not only about his approach but also about how each of his books supports a different part of the conversation he has with potential clients.
\n\nThis is a business with very long nurture times, and it's not unusual for it to take years for someone to become a client, so Brannon talks about the opportunities his books create to stay in touch with people and add value, no matter how the conversation goes.
\n\nThis is a great call with someone who has mastered a book's potential to start a conversation, and it really highlights the many ways the assets he has in his books can be maximized.
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/133
\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, I'm a CPA and I started my career with Xinjiang and quickly realized that Publix was not for me and I started selling CPA firms in the year 2003. So we've been on it for about 20 years and that's what we do. We sell firms in the US and in Canada, and in 2020, we launched a up, an online workshop called Accounting Practice Academy, and that's when we started our first book with you guys, and Academy has really helped. We help accountants who own a practice, help them do much better and get their hours down and get their profits up.
\n\nStuart: And is that always with the intention of selling them Eventually, or are some people in the program just to exponentially grow what they've got?
\n\nBrannon: It's interesting. I've always been curious about you know, I've been coached myself and I'm a believer in business coaching and I had this sort of vision for launching a program for accountants many years ago, and it's very difficult to get a platform off the ground in person the things that the coach has done and some of these other networks. It's really pretty remarkable because it's hard to get people to travel and get that thing started, so a lot of times what you have to do is you start privately and then you can build it up once you have a following, and I just wanted to launch something that would help accountants. I felt like we had a lot of knowledge. We actually wrote our first book in 2010 and I wrote it old, hard way, the old fashion, and that was the first sort of where we put our knowledge into, and I never intended it to be a get ready for a sale program.
\n\nAnd then I got accused of that. Like when we launched it said you're doing this to feed your brokerage business and honestly that wasn't the intent, but that has been the effect. So it has been a good feeder because a lot of times people when they're thinking about selling, that's when they really think, okay, I need to get my business in shape for a sale. So we have all sorts of people in. We have people who are selling, we have younger people who just want to build a good foundation.
\n\nStuart: You mentioned, the people often have the thought of making some improvements or the catalyst for taking that step is an external trigger of thinking about selling, or I'm guessing that some people have had an external event that kind of wakes them up and snaps them out of it a little bit. Those two groups of people the younger guys who are just looking to exponentially grow but they're really in it, and the people who are thinking, okay, this is maybe I need to do something, ready to sell the get self, and very similar people to be coached. And there's suggestions that are being made because underlying gets the same things that need to happen whether you're looking to grow and stay in it or grow it to get out of it. I'm guessing the fundamentals are the same but the approach might be different.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, Our program is very much about fundamentals and mindsets. Those are to be more universal and they apply to young people, older people, doesn't matter where you are, they're fundamentals.
\n\nStuart: And.
\n\nBrannon: I think the only difference is like sometimes there's more energy and excitement in the younger crowd because they've never. Some of these mindsets are very new to them and for some of the more experienced CPAs that are going through the program they're reminders, and but they still need the reminder.
\n\nStuart: And I guess there must be a frustration to a certain degree, and the more experienced group have. This is something that I should have known years ago. That can be a frustration in that. Yeah.
\n\nBrannon: I've had a couple of people say the only thing I regret about taking this is that it didn't take it 10 years ago.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, Is that old and out of. The best time to plant a tree was 100 years ago. The second best time is today and without a time machine, just crack on in today's of the day to yeah, exactly yeah. My wife years ago as a in between she's a teacher. So in between some jobs she was helping people with like home organizing, getting things squared away like an English Marie Curie type not Marie Curie, that was completely different Marie.
\n\nBut she really did that for a short period of time and enjoyed the actual work of it. But what made it and immediately go back into teaching was she said that it was turned into only 10% of the fundamentals of organization and getting things sorted out and then 90% was marriage guidance. I'm just all the psychological elements of why people weren't doing the obvious steps. There's a slightly more professional environment so you're probably not doing so much marriage guidance but I imagine a lot of it is more around the mind. There's an animat of it which is definitely associated with the mindsets and the psychology and not necessarily with the knots and bolts or numbers of the CPA practice.
\n\nBrannon: We did a lot of studying when we're creating the, what we did a lot of studying about change, human change how do you create change in people? And that's an interesting like. That's a whole topic of its own. That's extremely interesting, and we all know our own. I think people have their own goals to changing, and so one of the things that we really focus on in the workshop is honing in on what those are for people. We call it FTIs failure to amend so we get people to become very aware of where they've had problems changing in the past and also aware of where they've succeeded. Okay, here's that. If I want to change, this has worked for me in the past. Maybe it's how you lost weight or how you started a next program, and those are the same things that apply to changing your business.
\n\nStuart: It's interesting to see because my background is IT, project management and the very kind of should frame or was.
\n\nThis is going back a few years now, but there was a very structured framework around the work that we did and a lot of that coming out of projects was the kind of post-mortem at the end of every projects to try and get that lessons learned, and it's definitely the case that as an exercise wasn't utilized as much as it could have been.
\n\nThe theory around it is that every project going forward then looks at the lessons learned, not only to avoid problems but also pick up on best practices. But it's something that I don't think I've ever seen anyone else talk about outside of those management disciplines and the idea of taking that extra time to look at where those successes and failures were and think about taking that moment to think about the thinking of what was successful and what wasn't. That, I think, is a it's a difficult to sell in coaching programs to say that one of the main what a main thing that you're going to get out of this is the fact that it's a period of time away from the day to day just to think about the thinking of this. But the benefits of that. It's really quite an intangible it's. I don't know if you've experienced the same or you get that same feedback from your members.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, we we've been a little bit surprised at how people have taken action. Like, we built this hoping and thinking that, okay, that this is going to work, because we did do a lot of individual things prior to building a program. That's a group model and it was. But we were blown away that people are taking action in such a big fashion and we thought that's going to be the hardest thing to have to do.
\n\nWe can give all the great ideas and their business, because most of the people that come into our program are very busy. They're actually over scheduled and so it's very tempting for them just to fall back into their old habits, and so we were aware of that. Going in, it's like how do we keep people to make moves here? How do we get to make the change? Take all these great ideas and put them into action, and I feel like we built the right amount of accountability. Accountability is a big component of it and also with the awareness and making the idea simple and not over complicating things If it's complicated, people are just not gonna.
\n\nStuart: Practical implication of understanding all of a complex model is difficult enough. But when you add that, particularly, as you say, if people are over scheduled and that's one of the main reasons why they raise an ad and say, hey, I need some, I need to do something different Dump in a whole load of extra complicated stuff, the likelihoods with the best will and the likelihood of that being done is slim. So breaking it down into bite-sized chunks, that kind of bridges nicely into kind of the book conversation, because we often have this. I think I said it in last week's show as well. I was saying that we have a lot of conversations with people who are coming with ideas, but the ideas are coming from that 10 years of experience perspective.
\n\nI need to tell people this level of information where really the majority of books, where we're trying to engage with people, is at this level. It's the 101 introduction. They're just starting their journey, so don't over complicate it by delivering the 202 level of knowledge. It's starting at that position. So for you guys in the program, was it intentional or a happy coincidence to really I don't want to say strip back, but really think about the simple implementation steps?
\n\nBrannon: Absolutely. We wanted to make this very simple, very bite-sized. There were a lot of programs, when we looked at our competition, that were and I think this is, you know, this is an interesting thing about professionals in a lot of different professions. I see it in law, for sure, and in accounting, and there's, like you mentioned, it's this hey, I've got to show my knowledge. I've got to that more is more like if I write a, if I?
\n\nwrite a 2000 page book or if I come up with a super complicated, people are going to value that more somehow. And it's the opposite, because people need something actionable. They don't, they won't. They don't need to know how much. They need to know what you know. That will actually move the needle for them.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and yeah, they start in their journey. That's the exact thing to bear in mind. That it's they're starting their journey. It's great to have additional things later, but it's the wrong place to have it at the beginning part of that conversation. Whether the conversation is just sales discovery call at the very early part or importing into the early days, it's.
\n\nI made that mistake last. At the end of last year, someone invited me to dial into a webinar to give a quick presentation on some book things and I just finished the school card book that goes through the eight book mindsets. So I was probably overly proud of that. It is super valuable, but it's not a. It's not the first part of the conversation. It's the second or third part of the conversation. The invitation that I got was to really talk to a group of people who hadn't necessarily thought about writing a book at all and trying to deliver in a short period of time these eight mindsets, which is super useful, but not if you're going from. I've never even thought about writing a book. What's the benefit? So completely the little postmortem that I did myself afterwards completely judge the the right level and not that I was intentionally trying to show how much like overwhelm with how much we know, but just trying to deliver too much of the wrong value or the right value, but at the wrong time.
\n\nBrannon: So it is really a balancing act it is, and you've got to keep people engaged, and so there's got to be entertainment value. We hired a coach to help us build the program from the perspective of just engagement, like human engagement, because a lot of our programs are video, there's a video component, and so we wanted to keep people engaged. And one of the things I'll never forget she told me that our coach was think about a Hollywood movie, like you turn into a side Miami. When there's crime scene investigators, investigation movies, what's the first thing that happens in the first? Yeah, the drama in the dead body.
\n\nDead body there's always dead body right away and she's you got to have that. You need that in your, in your videos is what's your dead body in the first minute?
\n\nStuart: it's you got to capture people do you know what it's such an interesting thing. We've had a lot of conversations in the last few days and this could be a whole other conversation. Maybe we do another podcast at some point in the future, diving into this little bit. So I've had so many conversations the last couple of weeks or couple of months talking about the chat, gpt type, revelation moment and abundance 360 is on at the moment. So we've been dialing into those live streams this idea of of content being much more easily generated through ai. But I think the point can't be done is this idea of engagement. So a base level of content is going to go from here to here, because it's easier for people to create that generation of relevant stuff just gets done.
\n\nBut when you think about it in terms of your program, let's say, for example, we're three years down the track generating video modules that go along with your core agenda, that might get easier from an ai perspective, but that idea of delivering the engaging content that's not necessarily going to be there and not there in the way that that is into your brand, to you, your way of doing things. So for you to have gone through those steps to think about, okay, we're going to make some content that is engaging, that keeps people, gives them a hook to get tuned into, to raise that energy level, and then it's tailored to our program, so we've got some personality and perspective on top of it. That's going to be such a difference maker because the baseline is being raised, like everyone not everyone, but more people are going to be able to go from zero to something, to be able to go from something to something better. That's going to be a challenge and it looks like that was quite a big thing that you addressed in the setup.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, it was something we were very aware of, because people can only read so much at one time, people can only listen for so long at one time, so you have to bring in and you have to engage them and sometimes leave some space in there and there's a science to it.
\n\nStuart: For sure, and that idea of leaving the space around the logical steps as someone is coming in from not knowing who you are at all to having some introduction that gets them to a landing page or something or a podcast or something that allows them the opportunity to raise their hand through those first three points to the call to action.
\n\nThat minimum viable step of what text it is such a go from nothing to something is the 80%. Spend a lot of time saying to people don't get too hung up on it, at least in the first iteration, get the first working version out there and then you can always tweak but the dial in and the refining it. Once you've got that space to think about refining it is quite a step. So you mentioned you've got three books I guess four books and a traditional book and then three books that you're writing with us. The first one was the unplugged vacation, which I'm guessing comes from this idea that you've got a lot of over subscribed people. Do you want to talk about that one a little bit and what the impetus behind the book was and who the audience was that you were trying to serve?
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, the unplugged vacation was addressing the major issue that our clients have. And I had a call with a younger CPA years ago and he said he wanted to sell us. And I started asking him like do you enjoy what you do? Yeah, I like the profession, I love my clients, I'm engaged, I love my staff, like everything's good. He was just burned out.
\n\nI said when's the last time you had a vacation? And it had been quite a while for him. And I said look, before you sell your paper, go, take a week off, go somewhere really cool. Don't take your laptop, don't take your smartphone, go and just completely unplug and then come back and see if you like your business. He's still in practice. Okay, yeah, I knew this was a need because so many people in today's world, so many people are staying connected all the time. They don't disconnect and our brains need to unravel and it's actually a big benefit to your business. And so that was. And we give this book out at conferences. We took it to an AI CPA conference in Las Vegas right when we published it and we printed off a couple of copies and we were just handed off. So we would come up to people and say do you check email when you're on vacation?
\n\nAnd they would be like, yeah, we're like you need to read this book, and they would take the book, they'd put it under their arm and walk around the conference. We saw these orange books all over the conference, so it was great for that.
\n\nStuart: It's such a so many opportunities to use books in different ways. We've done some podcasts in the past talk about some of those different ideas but the fact that there's a relatively straightforward way of getting it created it's not the traditional publishing lock yourself in a cabinet and six months and thousands of dollars of editing. So there's a vast cost effective way of creating something. And then, once you've got the asset, the tool, there's a suite of ways in which you can use it. And even if you're using it in the print sense and using it as a kind of elaborate business card in conferences the cost of printing them, I think, even if we include shipping, which is obviously the heavy things, that adds to it a bit but $3 or so to get something printed. Trying to get something printed or the Merchie give it away, type G ball type things that people do at conferences which are debatably affected of value that's created in this thing because it's sharing something. There is an element of it's one of the psychological tricks, if you like all the book the fact that it exists and it's printed on the page. It carries so much more weight than just a brochure or a letter or a pen with your name on it. It's really interesting to think about those ways, now that you've done the work of creating something, the ways that you can use it.
\n\nThat conversation with people do you take? Do you check email on vacation? It's such a great follow up question. So we often talk about, now that you've got the book, the autoresponder, when someone opts in for a copy, those five or six touch points is the opportunity to get that conversation going. And second email so the first email is delivering the book, the second email we refer to as beer email, a short personal expecting a reply, that do you check emails when you're on vacation. It's such a disarming and that opens up the gates to a conversation. I imagine that's something that has resonated with you guys and then with the people you asked the question.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, the expressions on their faces were very interesting to watch, it was.
\n\nStuart: It's not. It's not what you would expect someone to ask you, and it's. It forces you to stop and think for a second before answering it. Yeah.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, we got a lot of different answers and some people was like, of course doesn't everybody.
\n\nStuart: How could you not yeah?
\n\nBrannon: So it was an interesting and we had a great conference because there was, I think, about 2000 people there, so it was a lot of people to test it out.
\n\nStuart: On An idea of writing a book sparked by the conversation with that CPA. Is that a book? Obviously, there's two more followed on from that. So we're thinking in terms of very different funnels and different approaches, different opportunities for people to come into the world. Has that first book, the unplugged vacation one, do you find that is typically used as like a lead generation piece at the top of the funnel to people who don't know you, or is it more like a lead conversion piece? People come in maybe from different channels, but this is a great way of people who are aware of you, of elevating the conversation and sparking a different thought process.
\n\nBrannon: because it's an engaged question, that's a it's a little bit of a difficult thing for us to answer because we are a very heavy content driven company and we're very, if you think about our transactional. We broke our CPA firms, so most of our business is extremely transactional and our sales cycle is very lengthy. So sometimes I'll talk to people five, even 10 years before they want to sell.
\n\nSo we have this lengthy pipeline and we've used it both as a lead generation like at the conference with people who didn't know us, and we've used it as a conversation follow-up. So let's say I'm nurturing a long-term lead, someone who's thinking about selling their business, and they call me three, four years prior and they're burned out, and I've just from a conversation that I might have with them on a common follow-up call. Then I go oh, I've got this book for you, let me send this to you, and so I think it helps nurture the relationship even more. And we, when you think about our product, it's a very high value, it's a high trust type of yeah.
\n\nStuart: And that rapport building the fact that there are all different tools that you can deploy depending on how the conversation goes. Again, it's an asset that's created in one point of time, that's useful for decades down the track to be able to pull out as something that really adds value to the conversation. Because I imagine that it's not thinking about that example. You're checking back in with someone years down the track. This happens to come up in conversation, sending them that copy of the book. It's not closing in the sense of it's not jamming in a sales tool into a conversation. It's really all value and helpful information and building that relationship even more, knowing that it is such a long lead time for conversions.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, exactly. If you're in any kind of sales work and the sales cycle is really lengthy, you'll learn really quick. You can't push people when they're not ready.
\n\nStuart: I talked about the. I've mentioned it on a couple of shows recently. There was a book that someone had recommended years ago. I think it's actually out of print now. It's called One Selling by an Australian academic called Michael Gleason, and here's I can't one. That is an acronym for something and the fact that he's Australian. That's why I'm guessing that's what led to the title.
\n\nBut one of the things that he talks about in that book is this idea of check moves. So here's work with sales teams is that the sales people are never finally in control of the sale. That's always in the hands. They're the ones that make the decision. So it's misplaced to incentivize or track sales people on closures. What you should be tracking is closing opportunities, so what he'll check moves. So every time you do an outreach they would lead to a close check that track that.
\n\nAnd it's really horses the bit that you said. You can't force someone into it, but by staying there as a trusted partner, as a trusted advisor or someone useful in their world, knowing that will, being there at the point that they decide that today is the day for them, is the secret, and this being another Even then. Again, we sometimes have conversations with people who are talking about books and want to put the cart before the horse and run down the track of thinking about five before they've even done one. But even if you had one book to be able to pull out a use, full chapter or useful takeaway that kind of reinforces the conversation, and then follow up with the book by using it to deliver more value, you definitely don't three or four. It can be done with one. It's just thinking about ways of now I've got this asset, how can I use it in a way that adds value? That leads to the second book. The second book was positioned slightly differently. Don't give us a bit of a background on that one.
\n\nBrannon: So we the second book was scaling, scaling cloud firms. In the last, I'd say, five to seven years, we've seen an increasing number of fully virtual CPA firms that are being sold now, and I think these firms were probably started being created maybe 2010 ish, and so we really didn't see any sales of those firms until a few years afterwards. And it's becoming a bigger and bigger part of our business. So we thought, hey, we'd like to get out front as the thought leader and be useful in this industry. So we essentially took some of our knowledge, put it in the book for scaling, knowing that a lot of these cloud firm owners are very entrepreneurial and they're very interested in growth. A lot of those firms grow very quickly, so that's what they're interested in, and so we wrote something to help them and then, hopefully, if they're interested in acquiring or selling, they'll think of us when that time comes.
\n\nStuart: Such a great way of thinking about a niche, like taking a moment to think about the trajectory of the industry as a whole or if there's a segment coming up and, like you say, there's an opportunity with being the first to market with something that introduces the idea.
\n\nAnd it doesn't need to be like the book itself is 70 pages or so. It's not like you wrote again six months in a cabriolet and writing the 2000 page tome on cloud computing. It's just hitting the idea because, as you said, these are long converting opportunities into dynamic and moving environment. So it's in the idea, always knowing that there's more stuff off book, out of book. There's kind of building on it. It really allows you to be quite lean and move quickly to get something up there. That introduces a fascinating thought process to think about the different assets that you've got in the books. There's like a founding fundamental walk addressing a problem that a lot of people have got. There's a new early market. Here's a thought technology that is evolving as we speak, and then the third book, trying to talk about the third book and where that sits in the spectrum.
\n\nBrannon: So the third book, which it's one of those ideas like why didn't I have this idea 10 years ago? It's how to prepare your CPA firm for a sale. So we actually had a white paper that was about 10 pages long called our succession planning guide, which has been very successful, and now that we have the business alongside the brokerage business, this sort of serves both audiences. We felt like this would be a great tool for promoting our coaching business.
\n\nIt would also be a great tool for people that don't really want to be coached but might want some easy sort of low hanging fruit ideas to get their business in shape to sell and then hopefully, if we give them value and it's helpful, when they do go to sell, they'll call us.
\n\nStuart: And that's exactly the point, isn't it?
\n\nIt's not like the job of work of the book is close those people immediately, it's to make them aware of you so all of your potential clients could be interested in that book, whether it's today or 10 years down the track.
\n\nSo it thinking of the books is that first step, and I think that's a big difference between the 90 minute book approach and the traditional approach.
\n\nThe traditional book either publishes the thinking about it in terms of the book itself being the product. Therefore it needs to be so big and it needs to be. It needs to be able to justify a $20 hardback cost and we want to sell 20,000 of them or it's people think about traditional type of books is I want to put all of my knowledge in here so that people are overwhelmed by the book, so that they immediately throw me up asking to do business with me and it does complete the sale cycle for me, when the practicality of that, the reality is that's not the case. It's like you've described customers who are one to 10 year journey of absorbing information and then at some point they're going to be ready. The benefit of the books that you've created is it starts that conversation and to a certain degree, in their mind, you've adopted the incumbent position. It doesn't guarantee that they'll come to you, but it certainly makes it more likely.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, and it gets them in our funnel right. It gets them in our ecosystem of content, which we're big content creators. It's a great tool and I think it's also even if it's a 50 page book, you're still an author and you're still. It gives you credibility in your space and people don't want to read a long book, not busy professionals I had. When we got back from the Las Vegas conference that I talked about earlier, I got an email from a gentleman who was there and he said hey, I read your book and, coming back from the conference and can you send me five or six other copies, I want to send this to some of my CPA buddies that I know, sure what's your address, and we send him five other copies or 10 other copies or whatever. And it doesn't have to be a long read and, matter of fact, it's better if it's not for most busy people.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's this idea of your thing, the idea of, like, how to sell the CPA practice or how to put it to be. That could be a college credit course. You could have like months and months worth of stuff that could go into it or scale it back. It could be 200 pages or scale it back further. It could introduce the idea and the concepts and deliver the beginnings of value and then give people the way to get more. It's the start of the conversation. It's such a key difference because, like you say, it makes it more likely that it will be read and it makes it more likely that it will done, because you started off the call by talking about the first traditional book you did and it was more painful than the last three. So, with them being busy, the likelihood of going from nothing to something is way more valuable than going from, from not having thinking about doing something but not actually having it, because you never get it finished.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, and only that, but I think the two, the mindset that I would encourage people that are writing a book and thinking about it is it's better if it's not long and just give them the real meaty stuff. Don't be afraid to give them stuff that's really going to help them, because the more you think about helping your reader, more that book is going to do the job that you want it to do, right their authenticity and their value comes across.
\n\nStuart: People can tell if you're holding things back or if it's just superficial, and then the call to action is when I need to come into the office and, well, lock the door behind you and I'll grab you for two hours.
\n\nIt's working these times, super, appreciate it's your time. I would be really great at some point and they're not teachers in the future to jump on another call and talk about the. You guys are such big in terms of content and delivering value beyond the book, so it'd be really great to jump on another call at some point if you've got time to really dive into that, because you guys have got not only the ability to create that content but you've got a mindset of creating it and continuing to deliver value, and the books feed into that funnel and trigger some of it and their anchor points for some of those later conversations. So that whole ecosystem that you've got of having various different assets that you plug together and I'm sure it's now in a situation or known date which is much more advanced than it was to begin with. So if you have time at some point and not to just in future be great to dive into that a little bit more.
\n\nBrannon: Yeah, be happy to we. In fact, we are in the process of reorganizing our website because we have so much content that we found out that, hey, our content's a bit scattered, so we need to bring it into one hub and have it all Easter. At least you can find your path to it fairly easily, and maybe that'll be a good point to touch back with you.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, and we can do. You can share the kind of before and after, because I think it is it's an organic problem. It starts off. You're not a content creation business as such, so you didn't start off by building everything to scale to 100 people consuming the content, and I think this is the problem that everyone gets. You start off by having a blog and then maybe having a YouTube channel and then it just gets very spread out so to be able to consolidate it and link it together. Yeah, that'd be a point to do that. Thanks again for your time. I don't want to make sure that people have got access to check out more of what you guys do. So what's a great resource or place for people to go to find out more?
\n\nBrannon: best place is just good on our website, which is ho group advisorscom.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. We'll make sure we put some links in the show notes for it, both on the podcast feed and the website of the episode. So as you listen to this, check that out. Obviously, if you've got any interest, if you're CPA firm and you've got interested in the coaching side of the business or you're thinking about selling or setting it up that way, but even if you're in any other business, recommend checking out just to see what what Brannon and the guys are doing. This has been really enjoyable. Like I said, a million questions. I could think we could talk for another hour, but that'd be really good to check back in again. So thanks again for your time this morning. Thanks everyone for listening. Definitely check out the show notes. We'll put the link there to Po Group Advisors. And thank you, we'll catch you in the next one.
\n\nBrannon: Thank you, Stuart. Look forward to coming back.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Brannon Poe, Founder of Poe Group Advisors, a US and Canadian firm specializing in helping owners optimize, buy or sell accounting practices.\r\n\r\nBrannon has authored three books with us, and today we get to talk not only about his approach but also about how each of his books supports a different part of the conversation he has with potential clients.\r\n\r\nThis is a business with very long nurture times, and it's not unusual for it to take years for someone to become a client, so Brannon talks about the opportunities his books create to stay in touch with people and add value, no matter how the conversation goes.\r\n\r\nThis is a great call with someone who has mastered a book's potential to start a conversation, and it really highlights the many ways the assets he has in his books can be maximized.","date_published":"2023-04-03T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/4f379219-66ad-4fbf-a921-7754a7a923a1.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":29887391,"duration_in_seconds":1817}]},{"id":"829193e0-438d-46cd-a2de-2e9fd7caf873","title":"Ep132: Pivoting Your Book with Michael Nula","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/132","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Michael Nula, Founder and former CEO of Elite Physical Therapy, which he grew to 13 locations, serving 60,000 patients before integrating the firm into Ivy Rehab Network. He is now the Founder and Executive Director of Nula Training Systems (NTS), a physical therapy business coaching & professional development company.\n\nMichael started his physical therapy career in school following a personal experience of treatment following a sports injury. Over the past 20 years, he's built a very successful practice across Rhode Island, with multiple locations and thousands of clients, and he brought together his knowledge and passion for helping people in his book, The First Step, in 2015.\n\nAfter integrating the practice into Ivy Rehab Network, he's used this wealth of experience to launch NTS and help other physiotherapy practices build their business. Understanding he's now looking to attract a slightly different type of client, he took the opportunity to update his book to not only provide value to potential patients but also demonstrate the NTS approach to business development clients.\n\nThis is a great call looking at the lessons Michael learned from building his company and hearing how a book can pivot to support the new goals of an entrepreneur. \n\n\nLINKS\nMichael Nula\nNula Training Systems\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/132\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell and here we've got Great Guest. I'm really looking forward to talking. We've had a couple of guests recently who have finished their books recently, so I'm more familiar with what they've done with it. Michael, who we're about to speak to, actually finished a couple of years ago and then has developed a bit since then. So this is going to be really in conversation to see how that book's developed over time. So, Michael Nula welcome to the show. \n\nMichael: Thank you, stuart, good to be here. \n\nStuart: Great to have you. So you're a physiotherapist up in Rhode Island. Why don't we start by just sharing with everyone a bit of the Michael Nuller story? Talk about their practice, where you're based and what you specialize in. \n\nMichael: Yeah, I fell into therapy really by accident. On my last year of high school. I had suffered a really bad knee injury that was misdiagnosed, and I learned later that I had torn my patella tendon, and so at that time I was playing basketball at my school. I had to forfeit the season and spent the entire year in physical therapy. But as they say, one door closes and another opens. I fell into this profession absolutely, just adored it, and everything after that was really a becoming a therapist and owning my own one day, and then, interestingly in the middle, I became a high school teacher and so but then continued the path to become a therapist. \n\nStuart: So. So in school there wasn't kind of you weren't going in with a physiotherapy type. That wasn't the end goal. It was really based on the personal experience that you changed. \n\nMichael: That's right. Yeah, had I not gotten hurt and required therapy, I don't know that I would have fallen in love with it, and sort of came to that conclusion, but someday this is what I want to do and have my own practice. Yeah, yeah. \n\nStuart: I mean it really establishes such a strong connection. If you've had an experience that really kind of anchors everything you're doing because you almost come to it from the patient's perspective, not from an academic or theoretical perspective or kind of like the outcome of being in that industry your introduction is the exact same introduction that all of the subsequent patients are likely to have. \n\nMichael: That's right and that's why, at the core, I you know I care deeply about the patient experience, you know, and I went to me when I went through my experience. It wasn't like I was enamored with the experience itself. I fell in love with the profession and so my way was OK. This is a really cool profession. It helps people. I love helping people, I love science, I love being active and seeing others be active. This is something I want to do, but when I do it I want to especially make sure the energy I put into is building that patient experience. \n\nAnd so so I, you know, fast forward. I started my practice 20 years ago and then now last year I just turned over my to my longtime business partner and we brought in a big partner, ivy Rehab Network, which is a world-class network partner. And now that's created this for me to get into physical therapy, coaching and professional development and also start a therapy program here in Rhode Island that in two years will be opening it up so that we can start to take doctoral students and kind of need a place with the new generation of physical therapists. \n\nStuart: And that's the trajectory of a career, from the beginnings, of just deciding to be in this industry through to specialising and building your practice, into selling into part of a bigger organisation and now sharing your knowledge, both from the coaching perspective and the education perspective. I mean that's really quite the life cycle and there must be a lot of lessons that you bring into the coaching because you've had such a strong personal experience of being in the business for an extended period of time, through bicycles and multiple changes in the expectations and getting a wish of age. So we both started pre-internet really I mean my first job. I think I was saying to someone a couple of weeks ago I didn't have emails for the first couple of regular jobs that I had. So you must have experienced the same that customer expectation or their understanding has changed quite a lot over that period. \n\nMichael: It has. Yeah, thankfully, I mean, I did come in the new side of things with websites and email and so forth, but it wasn't what it is now, you know. And yeah, I've really lived through every phase of therapy private practice, you know. We started. I started with, you know, one clinic and then grew to 13 clinics and 125 ease and did that with a partner who's also a therapist and just amazing experience. But always, at the core of it, I'm a teacher at heart, I'm a coach at heart and I love people and seeing them enjoy a great experience, and so now I'm just so passionate about helping, you know, the entire profession that are, you know, trying to continue to grow and develop and refine their businesses in this really complex landscape that we're in, right, I mean it's an issue to evolve right. \n\nStuart: And at a faster and faster pace. It's very difficult to sit back and just relax on something that has worked and not always be thinking, okay, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And I'm guessing that's a lot of the experience that you bring to people in the side of things, just because, again, you've seen so many iterations and moving from one practice to 13 is a significant growth. I imagine there's similarity in the delivery of service is going to be there, but running the business is going to be completely different from an individual location to elections. So that experience that you're bringing it's really going to help them shorten that learning curve from not trial by error, trial by someone else's experience. \n\nMichael: That's right. Yeah, you know and I, you know, respect that a lot of times the majority of the attention of the practice owner is just on what's in front of them, right, Trying to get through the day, get through the week, what's sort of like the immediate things on fire and creating pain, right, and so just sort of managing present time. But you know, one thing I've learned through the years is the importance of being able to look ahead and project ahead and, you know, keep the vision strong for the entire team. \n\nYeah, and so bringing external eyes like me, with my background, you know, I get excited to kind of meet them where they're at and kind of try to figure out where you're going and then how can we work together to get there. \n\nStuart: It's interesting, the breakthrough bleeper events that we do down in Orlando, the entrepreneur events that we do down there. \n\nOne of the benefits I say to people is being in union with eight other business owners. \n\nThey're going to talk about their problems but you've got the benefit of not having their baggage. So it's very difficult to step out of your own of the fires that are going on and just look dispassionately at the issues to try and come up with us, because consciously or subconsciously, all of the fires are still burning and your kind of view is tainted by that, by the reality of the day today. So, just as other business owners who are at those events, it's easy for them to offer advice because they're not constrained by the practicalities and for their own business they can think about that situation for themselves and sometimes it sparks things there which they wouldn't necessarily think, having almost exactly the same conversation. But if it was about them individually. So I'm guessing that's what you see a lot of. You're able to go in there and talk to people things that they really should know or would know if they were given someone else advice. It's just difficult for them to get to that point themselves. \n\nMichael: Right. And then the advantage I have is having that kind of separation where I'm not inside their practice day to day like they are. I'm able to review things with them objectively. And I think that's where we're able to be most productive and effective is by looking at all the facts and what's objective and kind of take a step back from some of the emotion that also goes into running a business. Today we get frustrated, sometimes we get clouded, we want things a certain way yesterday, so being able to kind of just slow things down enough to take a look at where again, where are you and where are you trying to go, and then just objectively let's map out some steps and strategies and etc. \n\nStuart: It kind of reminds me of so if we talk about the book, so the book was written. Was it 2015 originally? I think it was that far. \n\nMichael: That sounds about right. \n\nStuart: I was looking back at some of the files before we were just jumping on the call and it was interesting to have that initial thought of, oh, that makes sense, and then two seconds later to have the thought of well, actually doesn't make sense, because that's now seven or eight years ago and that seems like a long time where just seeing 2015 doesn't feel like a long time. \n\nBut one of the things that stood out about what you're talking about now in terms of the coaching and the book is it was originally in, so I'll just grab the cover of it and put on screen for people who are along with the video. So the first step, one of the chapters in the first version was talking about patients having experience in the pain but then leaving it until it's critical. And then they're in a very different situation of having to deal with the problem when perhaps there's fewer options or there's more urgency or the time frames are more constrained. Just as you were talking about the business coaching, it's actually there's some polls that quite often the business decisions or the decisions to grow or to stop a problem are sometimes left until they become critical as well. So it's just funny that you were talking in that context, yeah, from the book as well. \n\nMichael: Yeah, you know, this book also was kind of a labor of love in terms of, you know, philosophical approach to taking care of oneself and well-being, and it was this idea of let's get, let me get a you should, with my business partner, jason, out there to just educate society on physical therapy. What is it to you know, because it's come such a long way right, what is this beautiful option that's in front of us? What are some things I could think about with how I manage pain today that I can approach naturally, conservatively, effectively, but then learn things along the way that I can do to maybe minimize or reduce the likelihood of that problem coming back, maybe get learned the core of the root cause, so that you know that contribution that's what inspired this work, you know, whatever that was back in 2015. But then now, you know, kind of doing a revision was just to kind of renew this commitment to this approach and wanting to educate society. \n\nBut then, as I'm working with this around the country, you know, inviting them to reflect on their philosophy and their approach but, more importantly, their outreach and what doing with teaching initiatives in their communities, because the reality is we still have a lot of people walking around this country, and the world for that matter, that have painful problems, not really know what to do to manage them, have a desire to feel better, do don't really know what to do. What's the next step? And we're in this, like we mentioned earlier, really complex world. A lot of information's moving now talking about internet. It's at our fingertips and it's coming at such a rapid pace that it's creating this cognitive flooding among people, where they get numb and paralyzed and they don't know what to do. \n\nRight, Should I, should I, shouldn't I? And they're stuck in this paralysis. So you know. So trying to celebrate the you know the therapy communities in where you know we're here to help at the largest level. We're a resource, we're a terminal for society and, you know, working with CIS to help elevate them more so they're loud and proud and available to their communities as a resource to then collaborate with other healthcare professionals, right and so that's the difference. \n\nStuart: Like you say, it's no longer the case the information and the answers is restricted to the professionals. So it's not the case that you can only get a referral from a GP, a family doctor, and you get one choice and that's the choice. It's no longer that all of the options aren't available for the people who want to go and look for it, but the opportunity to build a relationship with the community so that you're a trusted source of information, of adding value, improving the quality of life, and then, somewhere down the track, there's some business transaction. That means that it's also profitable to do that. It's such a game changer now and, I think, for the next foreseeable future, particularly when you think about things like I was just watching a catching up on a YouTube video before we jumped on the call talking about chat DPP for, like the latest iteration, there we use some of the AI stuff or the podcast transcripts and in the pulling out some of the book, as we're creating some of the books and some AI stuff in there. Yeah, so this idea that there's information in data has been. \n\nThe first problem was that people didn't know about it. Then everything was made available. So now, like you're saying there's a filtering problem. That filtering problem is just going to get worse, where now the creation job gets 100 times easier because it can be done at scale. So to be the organization that's making a connection, that's almost getting back to front gate type approach of a person talking to another person, this is going to be technological ways of helping that, but sharing your vision either you yourself or you, as in one of the companies that you're helping sharing that vision. Why physiotherapies important, what difference it can make, what the easy way of getting started is, what things to watch out for. That connection is really going to be the thing that changed. \n\nMichael: It's powerful and now more than ever private is around the globe, need to make sure they're continuing to develop and grow their organization so that they're present and they're organized Right. So you know, with all this because people the society's reaching and searching for solutions to take care of their bodies there's a lot of energy in longevity, medicine, right and recovery. And you know, with this energy and attention we're going to see life spans go even further, we're going to see people being more active longer. So, like any fine machine you own and with enough miles on it, it needs tune ups, it needs repair, it needs enhancement and TLC. And so what better than you know physical therapy to be well positioned to make sure that again they're loud and proud and well known and thought of within their communities? \n\nbut have to be organized and you know in the ready. So so, being able to spot where there might be some hidden dangers or some stops in how some workflows are organized and the absence of systems or outdated systems and processes right, not necessarily technology, but a systematic approach of doing things that provide the great patient experience right, and that's a great point because it does become the line for what's required moves over time and gets higher and tougher over time. \n\nStuart: The technology is making some things easier, but the kind of just making sure that the fundamentals are taken care of. Any problems at that level really become barriers to moving on and they'll impact the organizations, I think, in an exponential way compared to the past, with fewer clients, a longer turnaround time, less demand, less immediate, the expectation of immediate responsiveness With all of those not so much there. So when you think family doctor back in the 50s would have a handful of clients. They get around to them. They got around to them. Maybe someone could go to a neighbor and use a phone to call three, but it might be two days later. Now you're expecting to log into a portal and have an immediate to everything. So not having those systems in place, I imagine, is going to be even more detrimental than it would have been in the past. \n\nMichael: That's right. Trying to solve that problem, that's right. And then rising their certain professional competencies too that we need to manage today's complex patient and to effectively collaborate with other health carepers. So you know, what are we doing to train our teams? What are we doing to elevate and develop our teams? What are we doing to make sure that we're always developing our mindset and progressing, that we're not still thinking with old ways of thinking and old ideas. But raising this world is evolving at a very rapid pace, so we have to remain adaptively meet and, quite frankly, exceed the needs of today's society. \n\nStuart: So that's right, exactly, yeah, there's so much opportunity there. It's really particularly a few and a few passionate about, because then all of this opportunity is just a light that you're drawn towards. It's not a light and it's a train about to run you over. It's kind of exciting. The book has a way of starting that conversation with clients and setting a set of values and delivering something that's kind of all giving. We talk about that quite a lot. It's a way of starting that conversation with adding value. The book itself was originally written more for patients to get that message out, and now it's changed a little bit in the latest iteration. Can you talk for a moment about what those early thoughts were, the idea of going from no book to a book? What was that transition? Why pick that as the way of getting in front of people, and what was it you really wanted to share with them in that first version? \n\nMichael: Yeah, I wanted something that would help the conversation, like you mentioned earlier, with the general public and also referring providers. You know, the reality is we've got not just doctors referring, but there's nurse practitioners, physician assistants, there's nurse case managers, there's discharge nurses, then there's different administration professionals. Right, you have a coordinator in some of these offices and healthcare systems. So it was trying to find a way how can we help the conversation, how can we also put some stable information out there that you know here's where physical therapy is now. Not sure where you're at with your know-how on physical therapy or if you or even know what we're doing these days or how to get our help or when it's indicated. But so it was trying to create something that could kind of organize it and also share our philosophy, you know, to well-being that. \n\nYou know pain doesn't have to be a way of life. You know it's interesting, right, every machine we own. It's our responsibility to figure out how does it work, right, and so the body is like that too. So when you have these warning lights on, like pain, you know you need to know how to address those things. And then, above now, as I'm working with privates around the country, it's you know what are you doing to address the pain points in your business, so that you can serve the patients who are coming to you with pain and then you can effectively manage your team, who have their challenges, their issues right. They're difficult conversations, they're, you know, obstacles. They're trying to. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting that there's a parallel between the patient experience and the business owner experience. I mean, the. The details are different, but there's definitely a similarity in that journey of kind of some of the acceptance not the deming cycle and not the 12 step program, but why would that framework is that accept it first and then address it and then kind of revisit it afterwards. Yeah, one of the groups you were talking about which is a fan. I'm going to try and remember this one as an example when I'm talking about it in the future. It's this idea of complimentary, non-competing businesses. So when I'm talking on calls with people about how to use the book further down the path, then there's obviously new clients that they're using it as a lead generation tool. There's existing clients and there's rules. \n\nThere's also this idea of complimentary non-competing businesses and the whole nurse practitioners, the case managers, whole three of people who are crossing over with your clients, who are perfect that you can serve the best. So taking a moment to stop and identify who those are and what information that they might find valuable. This is a great example, as I'm going to try and remember this one, for they're doing their day-to-day job. They're not physiotherapists. They've got some awareness, but it might be outdated. So using this as a tool of saying, hey, if you have clients who are experiencing this and they're not getting the benefits from what they're trying, this might be a great path to help them. Did that? Was there much, much acceptance of that? Did that with groups of people? This complimentary, non-competing group is one that I feel is always because people don't think about it. So I'm always looking for examples of where people have gone down that route and it's really kind of resonating. \n\nMichael: Yeah, we got a ton of feedback, not just from the community as we put this book in hands of patients, but again referring healthcare. There's a fun part about collaborating with you folks is that it's a short read, it's not a long read, and recognizing that today's professional, especially healthcare professionals, they're on the fly, they're on the move, they don't want some novel. So this provided a really concise, condensed kind of read and it got great feedback on it. As they said, it was tight, it was easy to follow. \n\nStuart: They realized some things. \n\nMichael: It provided some value in how they're routing and triaging patients. \n\nStuart: And helps it to stay front of mind as well. I guess because I was on a call yesterday with a financial advisor and they were talking about an older traditional book that they've written and the uptake on it wasn't quite what they were hoping for and it was big and like all of the problems of traditional books. So I was saying to him because he was feeling a little bit dejected, the fact that hadn't a build in they will come type thing, it hadn't quite worked out that way. So you just got to remember that people are busy. I'm sure that if you interviewed each and each person that received a copy of it, they would absolutely tell you that they would love to read the book. So future future Michael really wants to read the book. Past Michael really wants to have it, have had it read. It's just current Michael doesn't have time to do it. So I can, they really want to do it, they really want it to be done, but, yeah, just don't have time. So that concise message that just takes the conversation one step further. \n\nMichael: It's just the beginning of a relationship that you got and I'm so passionate about this profession and seeing it do well and, at the very least, what I'm hoping is that this just creates this sort of like link. \n\nAs people think of pain, they think could physical therapy help it right. And so if that facilitates a conversation with their doctor, or if we're talking about a doctor or other health care provider that's thinking about, okay, I have a patient in pain somewhere, they're starting to signal their brain like, let me just keep this in the choice bank therapy as indicated. And then you know, if we're all working hard in our communities to position ourselves as experts in therapy, experts in science, that we're taking time to educate our communities. All those nice health care providers they'll think you know front of mind, like you know what we know this group or we know this guy or this gal that they're geez, they always seem to be talking about therapy and their therapist out there, just sharing and educating. Why don't I reach out and see if they might be able to help? I've got this tough case. I think might need physical therapy, not sure. And then we talk through it and now we've got a relation. \n\nMight not have otherwise happened if that if something like this isn't circulating out there, and it's like you said. \n\nStuart: It's that starting point. The job of work of the book is done when it makes that first connection. It's not that the book is designed to sell someone and a client walks through the door. It's the start and you can imagine a situation where what would be an example, the Boston Marathon and trying to think about where you are, the Boston Marathon I'm sure that doctors get an increase in people with leg related issues as people who are suddenly training for the marathon. So sending something reminding them of the book that they've already received as a talking point, but then a very timely reminder of something that they might see. The relationship's always been established because of the book in the first place. Now there's a reminder. Oh yeah, I did have a connection there and this might be relevant. Join the dots and start the conversation. \n\nMichael: You got it. My greatest desire would be, quite frankly, that elevating everyone's awareness about physical therapy will push them, in their communities, to reach out to their local therapy place that they have some confidence in and want to learn more about how it can help them. Because we need to help society stay moving to stay healthy, and so to do that therapy is just so important. We can figure out why aren't you moving, why aren't you being as active as you normally are, and let's see what we can do about that. \n\nStuart: I remember in the UK there was so much across in 2018. So this is a bit of an old ad, but there were some stroke ads in the UK. The health service was paying for some stroke related ads and, of course, now I'm going to prove that it didn't necessarily work entirely, because I can't remember exactly what the acronym was, but I think there was like five steps and it was an acronym for each of the five steps and their ad campaign was helping people recognize the early stages. So it was something about people's. You might not recognize that someone might be having a stroke, but you might not recognize it here at the five warning sites like face dropping slightly, speech slurred mine sounds a bit slurred, but it's because I've got a cold still and then they gate. So just the fact that it's raising awareness of some preventative steps. Rather than letting it get to a critical stage, there's the opportunity to do something early which might mean that the outcome is fast, shorter, less painful, keeps mobility longer. Really, just keeping that conversation going. \n\nMichael: And the cool part is it's saving people time and money. You know when they're thinking of first step. Should it be therapy? Could it be therapy? It's just amazing integrating that in early in the intervention plan what that's doing to help people save time and money, you know, in the long run. \n\nStuart: So the book itself has gone through a couple of iterations. So this is something I wanted to drill into a little bit because, as I say, a lot of the people that we've talked with recently, they've just recently released the book, so I haven't had time to kind of let it season and then get some feedback and pivot in a position in a slightly different direction For you guys. The one was fast to get out there. It did the job of work. It was doing that great engagement. More recently you mentioned moving the practice into the bigger group, taking more time to develop the business coaching side of things and then in the book to support that goal a little bit more and very keen. \n\nThe one of the big differences that I try and share with people on the 90 minute book approach rather than the traditional publishing approach is that these books are to be living things. It's not like you've signed a deal on a line that started and it was knocked into a stone tablet and then you can never change it without either paying thousands of more dollars or much time and effort to do it. Fast thing that can pivot. I always like that saying no plan survives contact with the enemy, or like it's started approach Once it's out there. You get that. So can you talk a little bit about this latest iteration and what the thought was behind tweaking it a little bit and how much change you made and what now is the purpose of it? \n\nMichael: Yeah, so the idea now was, as I'm out there working with more privates around the country, helping them forward their goals and continue to grow and develop their practices confidently, it's still staying at the core, some of my passion At the core. \n\nI'm a teacher, but I'm also a healer, I'm a physical therapist and I'm staying current and that's important to me, that I'm still making decisions out into society with information that's helpful and then also for all these other privates out there, inspiring them to pick up the book. \n\nFeel good about that. I'm out there as an ally here to also. Maybe this helps them reflect on what their educational initiatives are in their communities, helps them with their conversations that maybe they're thinking about developing or even starting that they haven't already and challenge them to kind of take a look at their active following and can they engage them further. Because the fun part is when you've helped one patient at a time to do really well and improve their health and have an exceptional experience. They're an ambassador in their community, in their home, their work, their neighborhood, and it just inspires people to help each other more. Look to see what we can do to help each other in this crazy fast world that we're in, and I'm thinking even about you can't go anywhere now where you don't see people looking down at their device. \n\nStuart: So how do we? \n\nMichael: help people, remind them to get your eyes up, look around, someone kind of crouched or posturally twisted, moving a differently, nursing and compensating in some way. Then lend a hand and just reach and say, hey, are you okay? What do you? I noticed you're limping or moving a little bit difficulty. What's going on? And that take an interest, be curious and then ask my favorite question have you tried therapy yet? You know, talk to your doctor, see if it could help. \n\nStuart: Yeah, particularly as you say, with an aging population, it's easy for people to mask injuries and brush them off and again growing up in kind of the UK healthcare system, which might not be the fastest around, but it's. There's no direct charging for things, so people aren't reluctant to seek therapy because of costs, which obviously is a big deal over in the over here in the US. So, sharing with people that there might be a it's not necessarily going to be an expensive fix, particularly if they catch it early. There might be some things that really really allow them to preventative steps that keeps things moving for longer. \n\nI think that's one of the big takeaways that I've taken from this. Is that reminder that it is. There is so much opportunity in the preventative care stage of things and thinking of the bodies and machine, just like you get your car service. It makes sense to kind of keep on top of things rather than I don't know if it's the curse of youth like you always imagine that you're full out of a tree when you're 10 years old and you bounce back up and carry on. You kind of miss a step at 40. And it's a little different. \n\nMichael: You kind of have to think about it a little bit more. \n\nRight, but you know it's appreciating and respecting that the body's changing. You know, over time, and you know any machine that we hold for a longer time, you know we're managing it differently through the years. I mean, the first time you get your car, your brand new car, you can be rough, you can get out there and just go. Then, as the years go on, you know you're letting it warm up in the driveway before you go for it. You're mapping out the trip. How many miles is there? You know, should I, is this really the car I should take for that? Right? And so, as we were evaluating, is this city that I should really be engaging in or should I be modifying? You know, because we'd never tell people just stop moving or stop being active. We're just saying every seven to 10 years, are you just reviewing what you're doing for activity and being honest about you know kind of modifying some things? I mean that's why professional athletes aren't staying in professional sports until they croak right there. \n\nThey have a life cycle, you know and we have certain life cycles for certain things, but it doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means you do it a little differently right and so the fun parallel for me now is helping private businesses also realize that's the mindset in their business as well. \n\nBe proactive in what you're doing to take really good care of your machine, your company, your business, so you can really deliver great care, great service, which is the reason why we get into this field in the first place. And then what are you doing to evolve and modify it over time? You know you just can't run the business the same way you did on day one With each few years at Gisby. We need to keep developing, we need to be modifying, adjusting, because we're adapting to the changing needs and also the changing landscape around us. Right, that's so funny, right we? It's like I had this conversation with someone not long ago about change versus variety, you know, and it's like change is tough for some of us, even though we know the only thing that's changed. But something about variety we're cool with. \n\nWe like shaking it up a little bit every now and then, so, but how do we get the little best of both worlds and just keep evolving and keep trying to get better. That's really the fun and the goal. \n\nStuart: How do I get a little better Right that nuance of logic as well? It's such an interesting observation. Change versus variety the two what's happening, could be described in either way, but understanding the language, which I guess comes back to the book in a certain way. It's the way that things within the book are going to be either more or less so, taking some time to think about that and then, in the practice as well, understanding that not everyone's going to be thinking the same way that the physiotherapists might, because they're in it all the time. \n\nAgain, with creating the books, we sometimes talk to people who've been in business for a number of years but they're struggling to think about what should be included, and it's often a case that they're thinking too complex. Their equivalent when they're thinking about books in their industry is academic pieces or big traditional books written at a high level, because that's the kind of peer level that they're on, having been in the business for 10 years, but understanding that this is starting a conversation with Dave or Mary who's looking at this subject for the very first time, bringing it back down to that kind of 101 friendly introduction level that is meeting them, where their conversation is going on, and it's easy for people to underestimate how valuable what they see as the basic information is, because for other people that basic information is pretty advanced thinking. \n\nMichael: You got it, yeah, and there's the art right of what we're doing. We have art and science right and there's that art, that's that receptivity, like just being able to sense and perceive and sort of feel what the people are that you're trying to help serve, support, do really great by. It's like getting a vibe and being able to meet their needs and I always like to say, exceed their needs. Knock their socks off right. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you've got that opportunity, you've got the passion. It would be unfortunate if there were just some systemic things that stopped that from happening. Delivering the best service but then having email not going out or billing thing fail or an appointment get missed the fundamentals of the business. Cracking that code means that your passion for exceeding can really kind of shine in the best way. That's right, super appreciated of your time. It's really exciting to have this conversation with someone who wrote a book a number of years ago and then see how it developed. Just as we're wrapping up, let's talk a little bit about the coaching that you're doing for other organization and who is the best helping and I'm guessing that it's not just local in Rhode Island, it's anywhere. \n\nMichael: That's right. I'm working with this around the country. My company's called Nula Training Systems. It's a therapy, business and professional development firm. We're doing professional executive business coaching but also have some workshops for some courses for team trainings, coming on site and spending a day with a business owner to work on their business and outline strategies and action plans so that they're achieving exceeding their goals and doing really any support that they're really needing. A lot of times business owners are they're facing difficult decisions. They perceive they have some hidden dangers or unachieved opportunities in their practice. \n\nThey're trying to have a level of prediction trying to gauge ahead, trying to make big decisions that also impact the future. Some are also trying to manage a growing and changing workforce and trying to figure out how do I just get everybody getting along working together, supporting each other, so we can support our communities. So you know, my services help with that and always available for discovery. Call for people to learn more. \n\nStuart: And the like we just talked about for the last 30 minutes or so, that breadth of experience and the opportunity to go into an organization as an outsider, as a kind of knowledgeable outsider, and just be able to give an opinion or give an opinion without the baggage that has to be, I imagine, so for people. Thank you, we'll make sure that there's links to the website in the show notes, so if people are interested, then definitely check out that. We'll make it as easy as possible to get through the practice itself. What's the website for the practice? If people are in the NulaTrainingSystemscom. \n\nMichael: Invite them to reach out and you can go to the contact page and sign up for a discovery call and a chance to get to know each other and, if anything, make a friend, but also to have some information, learn more about what we're doing. \n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, thanks again, michael, it's been a real pleasure. It'd be interesting to catch up in another six or seven months, now that the latest version of the book has just come through an update on that one. So it'll be interesting to check back in and see how the practice, the development, practices developing and see what's happened over this year. So, yeah, looking forward to checking back in. \n\nMichael: Thank you, Stuart, appreciate it. \n\nStuart: Thanks everyone. Thanks for listening. As I say, check out the show notes for links to Michael's stuff and the cover is one of. I actually really like this cover. There was a early version of it that was on the version one, but the latest version has been updated to. It really shines, so really suggest jumping over to the Book More Show website and looking at the cover. That's just over my shoulder. Okay with that, thank you. We'll catch everyone in the next one. ","content_html":"Michael started his physical therapy career in school following a personal experience of treatment following a sports injury. Over the past 20 years, he's built a very successful practice across Rhode Island, with multiple locations and thousands of clients, and he brought together his knowledge and passion for helping people in his book, The First Step, in 2015.
\n\nAfter integrating the practice into Ivy Rehab Network, he's used this wealth of experience to launch NTS and help other physiotherapy practices build their business. Understanding he's now looking to attract a slightly different type of client, he took the opportunity to update his book to not only provide value to potential patients but also demonstrate the NTS approach to business development clients.
\n\nThis is a great call looking at the lessons Michael learned from building his company and hearing how a book can pivot to support the new goals of an entrepreneur.
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/132
\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell and here we've got Great Guest. I'm really looking forward to talking. We've had a couple of guests recently who have finished their books recently, so I'm more familiar with what they've done with it. Michael, who we're about to speak to, actually finished a couple of years ago and then has developed a bit since then. So this is going to be really in conversation to see how that book's developed over time. So, Michael Nula welcome to the show.
\n\nMichael: Thank you, stuart, good to be here.
\n\nStuart: Great to have you. So you're a physiotherapist up in Rhode Island. Why don't we start by just sharing with everyone a bit of the Michael Nuller story? Talk about their practice, where you're based and what you specialize in.
\n\nMichael: Yeah, I fell into therapy really by accident. On my last year of high school. I had suffered a really bad knee injury that was misdiagnosed, and I learned later that I had torn my patella tendon, and so at that time I was playing basketball at my school. I had to forfeit the season and spent the entire year in physical therapy. But as they say, one door closes and another opens. I fell into this profession absolutely, just adored it, and everything after that was really a becoming a therapist and owning my own one day, and then, interestingly in the middle, I became a high school teacher and so but then continued the path to become a therapist.
\n\nStuart: So. So in school there wasn't kind of you weren't going in with a physiotherapy type. That wasn't the end goal. It was really based on the personal experience that you changed.
\n\nMichael: That's right. Yeah, had I not gotten hurt and required therapy, I don't know that I would have fallen in love with it, and sort of came to that conclusion, but someday this is what I want to do and have my own practice. Yeah, yeah.
\n\nStuart: I mean it really establishes such a strong connection. If you've had an experience that really kind of anchors everything you're doing because you almost come to it from the patient's perspective, not from an academic or theoretical perspective or kind of like the outcome of being in that industry your introduction is the exact same introduction that all of the subsequent patients are likely to have.
\n\nMichael: That's right and that's why, at the core, I you know I care deeply about the patient experience, you know, and I went to me when I went through my experience. It wasn't like I was enamored with the experience itself. I fell in love with the profession and so my way was OK. This is a really cool profession. It helps people. I love helping people, I love science, I love being active and seeing others be active. This is something I want to do, but when I do it I want to especially make sure the energy I put into is building that patient experience.
\n\nAnd so so I, you know, fast forward. I started my practice 20 years ago and then now last year I just turned over my to my longtime business partner and we brought in a big partner, ivy Rehab Network, which is a world-class network partner. And now that's created this for me to get into physical therapy, coaching and professional development and also start a therapy program here in Rhode Island that in two years will be opening it up so that we can start to take doctoral students and kind of need a place with the new generation of physical therapists.
\n\nStuart: And that's the trajectory of a career, from the beginnings, of just deciding to be in this industry through to specialising and building your practice, into selling into part of a bigger organisation and now sharing your knowledge, both from the coaching perspective and the education perspective. I mean that's really quite the life cycle and there must be a lot of lessons that you bring into the coaching because you've had such a strong personal experience of being in the business for an extended period of time, through bicycles and multiple changes in the expectations and getting a wish of age. So we both started pre-internet really I mean my first job. I think I was saying to someone a couple of weeks ago I didn't have emails for the first couple of regular jobs that I had. So you must have experienced the same that customer expectation or their understanding has changed quite a lot over that period.
\n\nMichael: It has. Yeah, thankfully, I mean, I did come in the new side of things with websites and email and so forth, but it wasn't what it is now, you know. And yeah, I've really lived through every phase of therapy private practice, you know. We started. I started with, you know, one clinic and then grew to 13 clinics and 125 ease and did that with a partner who's also a therapist and just amazing experience. But always, at the core of it, I'm a teacher at heart, I'm a coach at heart and I love people and seeing them enjoy a great experience, and so now I'm just so passionate about helping, you know, the entire profession that are, you know, trying to continue to grow and develop and refine their businesses in this really complex landscape that we're in, right, I mean it's an issue to evolve right.
\n\nStuart: And at a faster and faster pace. It's very difficult to sit back and just relax on something that has worked and not always be thinking, okay, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And I'm guessing that's a lot of the experience that you bring to people in the side of things, just because, again, you've seen so many iterations and moving from one practice to 13 is a significant growth. I imagine there's similarity in the delivery of service is going to be there, but running the business is going to be completely different from an individual location to elections. So that experience that you're bringing it's really going to help them shorten that learning curve from not trial by error, trial by someone else's experience.
\n\nMichael: That's right. Yeah, you know and I, you know, respect that a lot of times the majority of the attention of the practice owner is just on what's in front of them, right, Trying to get through the day, get through the week, what's sort of like the immediate things on fire and creating pain, right, and so just sort of managing present time. But you know, one thing I've learned through the years is the importance of being able to look ahead and project ahead and, you know, keep the vision strong for the entire team.
\n\nYeah, and so bringing external eyes like me, with my background, you know, I get excited to kind of meet them where they're at and kind of try to figure out where you're going and then how can we work together to get there.
\n\nStuart: It's interesting, the breakthrough bleeper events that we do down in Orlando, the entrepreneur events that we do down there.
\n\nOne of the benefits I say to people is being in union with eight other business owners.
\n\nThey're going to talk about their problems but you've got the benefit of not having their baggage. So it's very difficult to step out of your own of the fires that are going on and just look dispassionately at the issues to try and come up with us, because consciously or subconsciously, all of the fires are still burning and your kind of view is tainted by that, by the reality of the day today. So, just as other business owners who are at those events, it's easy for them to offer advice because they're not constrained by the practicalities and for their own business they can think about that situation for themselves and sometimes it sparks things there which they wouldn't necessarily think, having almost exactly the same conversation. But if it was about them individually. So I'm guessing that's what you see a lot of. You're able to go in there and talk to people things that they really should know or would know if they were given someone else advice. It's just difficult for them to get to that point themselves.
\n\nMichael: Right. And then the advantage I have is having that kind of separation where I'm not inside their practice day to day like they are. I'm able to review things with them objectively. And I think that's where we're able to be most productive and effective is by looking at all the facts and what's objective and kind of take a step back from some of the emotion that also goes into running a business. Today we get frustrated, sometimes we get clouded, we want things a certain way yesterday, so being able to kind of just slow things down enough to take a look at where again, where are you and where are you trying to go, and then just objectively let's map out some steps and strategies and etc.
\n\nStuart: It kind of reminds me of so if we talk about the book, so the book was written. Was it 2015 originally? I think it was that far.
\n\nMichael: That sounds about right.
\n\nStuart: I was looking back at some of the files before we were just jumping on the call and it was interesting to have that initial thought of, oh, that makes sense, and then two seconds later to have the thought of well, actually doesn't make sense, because that's now seven or eight years ago and that seems like a long time where just seeing 2015 doesn't feel like a long time.
\n\nBut one of the things that stood out about what you're talking about now in terms of the coaching and the book is it was originally in, so I'll just grab the cover of it and put on screen for people who are along with the video. So the first step, one of the chapters in the first version was talking about patients having experience in the pain but then leaving it until it's critical. And then they're in a very different situation of having to deal with the problem when perhaps there's fewer options or there's more urgency or the time frames are more constrained. Just as you were talking about the business coaching, it's actually there's some polls that quite often the business decisions or the decisions to grow or to stop a problem are sometimes left until they become critical as well. So it's just funny that you were talking in that context, yeah, from the book as well.
\n\nMichael: Yeah, you know, this book also was kind of a labor of love in terms of, you know, philosophical approach to taking care of oneself and well-being, and it was this idea of let's get, let me get a you should, with my business partner, jason, out there to just educate society on physical therapy. What is it to you know, because it's come such a long way right, what is this beautiful option that's in front of us? What are some things I could think about with how I manage pain today that I can approach naturally, conservatively, effectively, but then learn things along the way that I can do to maybe minimize or reduce the likelihood of that problem coming back, maybe get learned the core of the root cause, so that you know that contribution that's what inspired this work, you know, whatever that was back in 2015. But then now, you know, kind of doing a revision was just to kind of renew this commitment to this approach and wanting to educate society.
\n\nBut then, as I'm working with this around the country, you know, inviting them to reflect on their philosophy and their approach but, more importantly, their outreach and what doing with teaching initiatives in their communities, because the reality is we still have a lot of people walking around this country, and the world for that matter, that have painful problems, not really know what to do to manage them, have a desire to feel better, do don't really know what to do. What's the next step? And we're in this, like we mentioned earlier, really complex world. A lot of information's moving now talking about internet. It's at our fingertips and it's coming at such a rapid pace that it's creating this cognitive flooding among people, where they get numb and paralyzed and they don't know what to do.
\n\nRight, Should I, should I, shouldn't I? And they're stuck in this paralysis. So you know. So trying to celebrate the you know the therapy communities in where you know we're here to help at the largest level. We're a resource, we're a terminal for society and, you know, working with CIS to help elevate them more so they're loud and proud and available to their communities as a resource to then collaborate with other healthcare professionals, right and so that's the difference.
\n\nStuart: Like you say, it's no longer the case the information and the answers is restricted to the professionals. So it's not the case that you can only get a referral from a GP, a family doctor, and you get one choice and that's the choice. It's no longer that all of the options aren't available for the people who want to go and look for it, but the opportunity to build a relationship with the community so that you're a trusted source of information, of adding value, improving the quality of life, and then, somewhere down the track, there's some business transaction. That means that it's also profitable to do that. It's such a game changer now and, I think, for the next foreseeable future, particularly when you think about things like I was just watching a catching up on a YouTube video before we jumped on the call talking about chat DPP for, like the latest iteration, there we use some of the AI stuff or the podcast transcripts and in the pulling out some of the book, as we're creating some of the books and some AI stuff in there. Yeah, so this idea that there's information in data has been.
\n\nThe first problem was that people didn't know about it. Then everything was made available. So now, like you're saying there's a filtering problem. That filtering problem is just going to get worse, where now the creation job gets 100 times easier because it can be done at scale. So to be the organization that's making a connection, that's almost getting back to front gate type approach of a person talking to another person, this is going to be technological ways of helping that, but sharing your vision either you yourself or you, as in one of the companies that you're helping sharing that vision. Why physiotherapies important, what difference it can make, what the easy way of getting started is, what things to watch out for. That connection is really going to be the thing that changed.
\n\nMichael: It's powerful and now more than ever private is around the globe, need to make sure they're continuing to develop and grow their organization so that they're present and they're organized Right. So you know, with all this because people the society's reaching and searching for solutions to take care of their bodies there's a lot of energy in longevity, medicine, right and recovery. And you know, with this energy and attention we're going to see life spans go even further, we're going to see people being more active longer. So, like any fine machine you own and with enough miles on it, it needs tune ups, it needs repair, it needs enhancement and TLC. And so what better than you know physical therapy to be well positioned to make sure that again they're loud and proud and well known and thought of within their communities?
\n\nbut have to be organized and you know in the ready. So so, being able to spot where there might be some hidden dangers or some stops in how some workflows are organized and the absence of systems or outdated systems and processes right, not necessarily technology, but a systematic approach of doing things that provide the great patient experience right, and that's a great point because it does become the line for what's required moves over time and gets higher and tougher over time.
\n\nStuart: The technology is making some things easier, but the kind of just making sure that the fundamentals are taken care of. Any problems at that level really become barriers to moving on and they'll impact the organizations, I think, in an exponential way compared to the past, with fewer clients, a longer turnaround time, less demand, less immediate, the expectation of immediate responsiveness With all of those not so much there. So when you think family doctor back in the 50s would have a handful of clients. They get around to them. They got around to them. Maybe someone could go to a neighbor and use a phone to call three, but it might be two days later. Now you're expecting to log into a portal and have an immediate to everything. So not having those systems in place, I imagine, is going to be even more detrimental than it would have been in the past.
\n\nMichael: That's right. Trying to solve that problem, that's right. And then rising their certain professional competencies too that we need to manage today's complex patient and to effectively collaborate with other health carepers. So you know, what are we doing to train our teams? What are we doing to elevate and develop our teams? What are we doing to make sure that we're always developing our mindset and progressing, that we're not still thinking with old ways of thinking and old ideas. But raising this world is evolving at a very rapid pace, so we have to remain adaptively meet and, quite frankly, exceed the needs of today's society.
\n\nStuart: So that's right, exactly, yeah, there's so much opportunity there. It's really particularly a few and a few passionate about, because then all of this opportunity is just a light that you're drawn towards. It's not a light and it's a train about to run you over. It's kind of exciting. The book has a way of starting that conversation with clients and setting a set of values and delivering something that's kind of all giving. We talk about that quite a lot. It's a way of starting that conversation with adding value. The book itself was originally written more for patients to get that message out, and now it's changed a little bit in the latest iteration. Can you talk for a moment about what those early thoughts were, the idea of going from no book to a book? What was that transition? Why pick that as the way of getting in front of people, and what was it you really wanted to share with them in that first version?
\n\nMichael: Yeah, I wanted something that would help the conversation, like you mentioned earlier, with the general public and also referring providers. You know, the reality is we've got not just doctors referring, but there's nurse practitioners, physician assistants, there's nurse case managers, there's discharge nurses, then there's different administration professionals. Right, you have a coordinator in some of these offices and healthcare systems. So it was trying to find a way how can we help the conversation, how can we also put some stable information out there that you know here's where physical therapy is now. Not sure where you're at with your know-how on physical therapy or if you or even know what we're doing these days or how to get our help or when it's indicated. But so it was trying to create something that could kind of organize it and also share our philosophy, you know, to well-being that.
\n\nYou know pain doesn't have to be a way of life. You know it's interesting, right, every machine we own. It's our responsibility to figure out how does it work, right, and so the body is like that too. So when you have these warning lights on, like pain, you know you need to know how to address those things. And then, above now, as I'm working with privates around the country, it's you know what are you doing to address the pain points in your business, so that you can serve the patients who are coming to you with pain and then you can effectively manage your team, who have their challenges, their issues right. They're difficult conversations, they're, you know, obstacles. They're trying to.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting that there's a parallel between the patient experience and the business owner experience. I mean, the. The details are different, but there's definitely a similarity in that journey of kind of some of the acceptance not the deming cycle and not the 12 step program, but why would that framework is that accept it first and then address it and then kind of revisit it afterwards. Yeah, one of the groups you were talking about which is a fan. I'm going to try and remember this one as an example when I'm talking about it in the future. It's this idea of complimentary, non-competing businesses. So when I'm talking on calls with people about how to use the book further down the path, then there's obviously new clients that they're using it as a lead generation tool. There's existing clients and there's rules.
\n\nThere's also this idea of complimentary non-competing businesses and the whole nurse practitioners, the case managers, whole three of people who are crossing over with your clients, who are perfect that you can serve the best. So taking a moment to stop and identify who those are and what information that they might find valuable. This is a great example, as I'm going to try and remember this one, for they're doing their day-to-day job. They're not physiotherapists. They've got some awareness, but it might be outdated. So using this as a tool of saying, hey, if you have clients who are experiencing this and they're not getting the benefits from what they're trying, this might be a great path to help them. Did that? Was there much, much acceptance of that? Did that with groups of people? This complimentary, non-competing group is one that I feel is always because people don't think about it. So I'm always looking for examples of where people have gone down that route and it's really kind of resonating.
\n\nMichael: Yeah, we got a ton of feedback, not just from the community as we put this book in hands of patients, but again referring healthcare. There's a fun part about collaborating with you folks is that it's a short read, it's not a long read, and recognizing that today's professional, especially healthcare professionals, they're on the fly, they're on the move, they don't want some novel. So this provided a really concise, condensed kind of read and it got great feedback on it. As they said, it was tight, it was easy to follow.
\n\nStuart: They realized some things.
\n\nMichael: It provided some value in how they're routing and triaging patients.
\n\nStuart: And helps it to stay front of mind as well. I guess because I was on a call yesterday with a financial advisor and they were talking about an older traditional book that they've written and the uptake on it wasn't quite what they were hoping for and it was big and like all of the problems of traditional books. So I was saying to him because he was feeling a little bit dejected, the fact that hadn't a build in they will come type thing, it hadn't quite worked out that way. So you just got to remember that people are busy. I'm sure that if you interviewed each and each person that received a copy of it, they would absolutely tell you that they would love to read the book. So future future Michael really wants to read the book. Past Michael really wants to have it, have had it read. It's just current Michael doesn't have time to do it. So I can, they really want to do it, they really want it to be done, but, yeah, just don't have time. So that concise message that just takes the conversation one step further.
\n\nMichael: It's just the beginning of a relationship that you got and I'm so passionate about this profession and seeing it do well and, at the very least, what I'm hoping is that this just creates this sort of like link.
\n\nAs people think of pain, they think could physical therapy help it right. And so if that facilitates a conversation with their doctor, or if we're talking about a doctor or other health care provider that's thinking about, okay, I have a patient in pain somewhere, they're starting to signal their brain like, let me just keep this in the choice bank therapy as indicated. And then you know, if we're all working hard in our communities to position ourselves as experts in therapy, experts in science, that we're taking time to educate our communities. All those nice health care providers they'll think you know front of mind, like you know what we know this group or we know this guy or this gal that they're geez, they always seem to be talking about therapy and their therapist out there, just sharing and educating. Why don't I reach out and see if they might be able to help? I've got this tough case. I think might need physical therapy, not sure. And then we talk through it and now we've got a relation.
\n\nMight not have otherwise happened if that if something like this isn't circulating out there, and it's like you said.
\n\nStuart: It's that starting point. The job of work of the book is done when it makes that first connection. It's not that the book is designed to sell someone and a client walks through the door. It's the start and you can imagine a situation where what would be an example, the Boston Marathon and trying to think about where you are, the Boston Marathon I'm sure that doctors get an increase in people with leg related issues as people who are suddenly training for the marathon. So sending something reminding them of the book that they've already received as a talking point, but then a very timely reminder of something that they might see. The relationship's always been established because of the book in the first place. Now there's a reminder. Oh yeah, I did have a connection there and this might be relevant. Join the dots and start the conversation.
\n\nMichael: You got it. My greatest desire would be, quite frankly, that elevating everyone's awareness about physical therapy will push them, in their communities, to reach out to their local therapy place that they have some confidence in and want to learn more about how it can help them. Because we need to help society stay moving to stay healthy, and so to do that therapy is just so important. We can figure out why aren't you moving, why aren't you being as active as you normally are, and let's see what we can do about that.
\n\nStuart: I remember in the UK there was so much across in 2018. So this is a bit of an old ad, but there were some stroke ads in the UK. The health service was paying for some stroke related ads and, of course, now I'm going to prove that it didn't necessarily work entirely, because I can't remember exactly what the acronym was, but I think there was like five steps and it was an acronym for each of the five steps and their ad campaign was helping people recognize the early stages. So it was something about people's. You might not recognize that someone might be having a stroke, but you might not recognize it here at the five warning sites like face dropping slightly, speech slurred mine sounds a bit slurred, but it's because I've got a cold still and then they gate. So just the fact that it's raising awareness of some preventative steps. Rather than letting it get to a critical stage, there's the opportunity to do something early which might mean that the outcome is fast, shorter, less painful, keeps mobility longer. Really, just keeping that conversation going.
\n\nMichael: And the cool part is it's saving people time and money. You know when they're thinking of first step. Should it be therapy? Could it be therapy? It's just amazing integrating that in early in the intervention plan what that's doing to help people save time and money, you know, in the long run.
\n\nStuart: So the book itself has gone through a couple of iterations. So this is something I wanted to drill into a little bit because, as I say, a lot of the people that we've talked with recently, they've just recently released the book, so I haven't had time to kind of let it season and then get some feedback and pivot in a position in a slightly different direction For you guys. The one was fast to get out there. It did the job of work. It was doing that great engagement. More recently you mentioned moving the practice into the bigger group, taking more time to develop the business coaching side of things and then in the book to support that goal a little bit more and very keen.
\n\nThe one of the big differences that I try and share with people on the 90 minute book approach rather than the traditional publishing approach is that these books are to be living things. It's not like you've signed a deal on a line that started and it was knocked into a stone tablet and then you can never change it without either paying thousands of more dollars or much time and effort to do it. Fast thing that can pivot. I always like that saying no plan survives contact with the enemy, or like it's started approach Once it's out there. You get that. So can you talk a little bit about this latest iteration and what the thought was behind tweaking it a little bit and how much change you made and what now is the purpose of it?
\n\nMichael: Yeah, so the idea now was, as I'm out there working with more privates around the country, helping them forward their goals and continue to grow and develop their practices confidently, it's still staying at the core, some of my passion At the core.
\n\nI'm a teacher, but I'm also a healer, I'm a physical therapist and I'm staying current and that's important to me, that I'm still making decisions out into society with information that's helpful and then also for all these other privates out there, inspiring them to pick up the book.
\n\nFeel good about that. I'm out there as an ally here to also. Maybe this helps them reflect on what their educational initiatives are in their communities, helps them with their conversations that maybe they're thinking about developing or even starting that they haven't already and challenge them to kind of take a look at their active following and can they engage them further. Because the fun part is when you've helped one patient at a time to do really well and improve their health and have an exceptional experience. They're an ambassador in their community, in their home, their work, their neighborhood, and it just inspires people to help each other more. Look to see what we can do to help each other in this crazy fast world that we're in, and I'm thinking even about you can't go anywhere now where you don't see people looking down at their device.
\n\nStuart: So how do we?
\n\nMichael: help people, remind them to get your eyes up, look around, someone kind of crouched or posturally twisted, moving a differently, nursing and compensating in some way. Then lend a hand and just reach and say, hey, are you okay? What do you? I noticed you're limping or moving a little bit difficulty. What's going on? And that take an interest, be curious and then ask my favorite question have you tried therapy yet? You know, talk to your doctor, see if it could help.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, particularly as you say, with an aging population, it's easy for people to mask injuries and brush them off and again growing up in kind of the UK healthcare system, which might not be the fastest around, but it's. There's no direct charging for things, so people aren't reluctant to seek therapy because of costs, which obviously is a big deal over in the over here in the US. So, sharing with people that there might be a it's not necessarily going to be an expensive fix, particularly if they catch it early. There might be some things that really really allow them to preventative steps that keeps things moving for longer.
\n\nI think that's one of the big takeaways that I've taken from this. Is that reminder that it is. There is so much opportunity in the preventative care stage of things and thinking of the bodies and machine, just like you get your car service. It makes sense to kind of keep on top of things rather than I don't know if it's the curse of youth like you always imagine that you're full out of a tree when you're 10 years old and you bounce back up and carry on. You kind of miss a step at 40. And it's a little different.
\n\nMichael: You kind of have to think about it a little bit more.
\n\nRight, but you know it's appreciating and respecting that the body's changing. You know, over time, and you know any machine that we hold for a longer time, you know we're managing it differently through the years. I mean, the first time you get your car, your brand new car, you can be rough, you can get out there and just go. Then, as the years go on, you know you're letting it warm up in the driveway before you go for it. You're mapping out the trip. How many miles is there? You know, should I, is this really the car I should take for that? Right? And so, as we were evaluating, is this city that I should really be engaging in or should I be modifying? You know, because we'd never tell people just stop moving or stop being active. We're just saying every seven to 10 years, are you just reviewing what you're doing for activity and being honest about you know kind of modifying some things? I mean that's why professional athletes aren't staying in professional sports until they croak right there.
\n\nThey have a life cycle, you know and we have certain life cycles for certain things, but it doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means you do it a little differently right and so the fun parallel for me now is helping private businesses also realize that's the mindset in their business as well.
\n\nBe proactive in what you're doing to take really good care of your machine, your company, your business, so you can really deliver great care, great service, which is the reason why we get into this field in the first place. And then what are you doing to evolve and modify it over time? You know you just can't run the business the same way you did on day one With each few years at Gisby. We need to keep developing, we need to be modifying, adjusting, because we're adapting to the changing needs and also the changing landscape around us. Right, that's so funny, right we? It's like I had this conversation with someone not long ago about change versus variety, you know, and it's like change is tough for some of us, even though we know the only thing that's changed. But something about variety we're cool with.
\n\nWe like shaking it up a little bit every now and then, so, but how do we get the little best of both worlds and just keep evolving and keep trying to get better. That's really the fun and the goal.
\n\nStuart: How do I get a little better Right that nuance of logic as well? It's such an interesting observation. Change versus variety the two what's happening, could be described in either way, but understanding the language, which I guess comes back to the book in a certain way. It's the way that things within the book are going to be either more or less so, taking some time to think about that and then, in the practice as well, understanding that not everyone's going to be thinking the same way that the physiotherapists might, because they're in it all the time.
\n\nAgain, with creating the books, we sometimes talk to people who've been in business for a number of years but they're struggling to think about what should be included, and it's often a case that they're thinking too complex. Their equivalent when they're thinking about books in their industry is academic pieces or big traditional books written at a high level, because that's the kind of peer level that they're on, having been in the business for 10 years, but understanding that this is starting a conversation with Dave or Mary who's looking at this subject for the very first time, bringing it back down to that kind of 101 friendly introduction level that is meeting them, where their conversation is going on, and it's easy for people to underestimate how valuable what they see as the basic information is, because for other people that basic information is pretty advanced thinking.
\n\nMichael: You got it, yeah, and there's the art right of what we're doing. We have art and science right and there's that art, that's that receptivity, like just being able to sense and perceive and sort of feel what the people are that you're trying to help serve, support, do really great by. It's like getting a vibe and being able to meet their needs and I always like to say, exceed their needs. Knock their socks off right.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you've got that opportunity, you've got the passion. It would be unfortunate if there were just some systemic things that stopped that from happening. Delivering the best service but then having email not going out or billing thing fail or an appointment get missed the fundamentals of the business. Cracking that code means that your passion for exceeding can really kind of shine in the best way. That's right, super appreciated of your time. It's really exciting to have this conversation with someone who wrote a book a number of years ago and then see how it developed. Just as we're wrapping up, let's talk a little bit about the coaching that you're doing for other organization and who is the best helping and I'm guessing that it's not just local in Rhode Island, it's anywhere.
\n\nMichael: That's right. I'm working with this around the country. My company's called Nula Training Systems. It's a therapy, business and professional development firm. We're doing professional executive business coaching but also have some workshops for some courses for team trainings, coming on site and spending a day with a business owner to work on their business and outline strategies and action plans so that they're achieving exceeding their goals and doing really any support that they're really needing. A lot of times business owners are they're facing difficult decisions. They perceive they have some hidden dangers or unachieved opportunities in their practice.
\n\nThey're trying to have a level of prediction trying to gauge ahead, trying to make big decisions that also impact the future. Some are also trying to manage a growing and changing workforce and trying to figure out how do I just get everybody getting along working together, supporting each other, so we can support our communities. So you know, my services help with that and always available for discovery. Call for people to learn more.
\n\nStuart: And the like we just talked about for the last 30 minutes or so, that breadth of experience and the opportunity to go into an organization as an outsider, as a kind of knowledgeable outsider, and just be able to give an opinion or give an opinion without the baggage that has to be, I imagine, so for people. Thank you, we'll make sure that there's links to the website in the show notes, so if people are interested, then definitely check out that. We'll make it as easy as possible to get through the practice itself. What's the website for the practice? If people are in the NulaTrainingSystemscom.
\n\nMichael: Invite them to reach out and you can go to the contact page and sign up for a discovery call and a chance to get to know each other and, if anything, make a friend, but also to have some information, learn more about what we're doing.
\n\nStuart: Fantastic. Well, thanks again, michael, it's been a real pleasure. It'd be interesting to catch up in another six or seven months, now that the latest version of the book has just come through an update on that one. So it'll be interesting to check back in and see how the practice, the development, practices developing and see what's happened over this year. So, yeah, looking forward to checking back in.
\n\nMichael: Thank you, Stuart, appreciate it.
\n\nStuart: Thanks everyone. Thanks for listening. As I say, check out the show notes for links to Michael's stuff and the cover is one of. I actually really like this cover. There was a early version of it that was on the version one, but the latest version has been updated to. It really shines, so really suggest jumping over to the Book More Show website and looking at the cover. That's just over my shoulder. Okay with that, thank you. We'll catch everyone in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Michael Nula, CEO of Elite Physical Therapy, with 13 locations across Rhode Island. More recently, founder of Nula Training Systems (NTS), a physical therapy business coaching & professional development.\r\n\r\nMichael started his physical therapy career in school following a personal experience of treatment following a sports injury. Over the past 20 years, he's built a very successful practice across Rhode Island, with multiple locations and thousands of clients. He brought together his knowledge and passion for helping people into his book, 'The First Step,' in 2015.\r\n\r\nMore recently, he's taken this wealth of experience to help other physiotherapy practices build their business by launching NTS. Understanding he's now looking to attract a slightly different type of client, he took the opportunity to update his book to not only provide value to potential patients but also demonstrate the NTS approach to business development clients.\r\n\r\nThis is a great call to look at some of the lessons Michael learned from building his company and see how a book can pivot to support the new goals of an entrepreneur. ","date_published":"2023-03-26T09:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/829193e0-438d-46cd-a2de-2e9fd7caf873.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":24344515,"duration_in_seconds":1957}]},{"id":"05702f6d-9e61-470a-9496-1eba9ca6dd01","title":"Ep131: Serving a Community with Rajesh Jyotishi","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/131","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Rajesh Jyotishi (RJ), Financial Advisor based in Atlanta and Author of The 5 Biggest Risks in Retirement & Money Talk.\n\nRJ has been a pillar of the Indian community in Atlanta for many years and started a financial column in a magazine he helped create back in the 90's. Several years ago, he distilled this knowledge into a traditional book called 'Money Talk,' and last year he created a conversation-starting book, 'The 5 Biggest Risks in Retirement', to answer 5 of the most important retirement questions his community has.\n\nThis is a great call as we talk about how RJ dialed in his audience by understanding who he can best help, how he chose the information to share in a conversation-starting book, and how he's using it to serve his community better.\n\nRJ's passion for delivering value comes through in everything he does, and this call is a great reminder there are people out there hunting for the information in your head, and your book is a great way to help them start their journey.\n\n\nLINKS\nRajesh Jyotishi\nInsurance Wala\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/131\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n****\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here and excited again because we're sharing one of our authors' stories. So today we've got Rajesh Jatishi with us. I'm just going to start with a quick disclaimer. I haven't done a number of compliance books that have to go through compliance. I'm kind of aware of the different compliance levels of each organisation, so let me just share this one quickly. \nSo Rajesh is a registered representative of Dempsey Lord Smith LC, which is a registered broker dealer and a member of FINRA SIPC. So advisory services are offered through Dempsey Lord Smith LC. And obviously all of this is opinion, none of its financial advice. Definitely don't take financial advice from me. Take financial advice from Rajesh, but only in person. So, rajesh, thanks for joining us. You've been in Lanto I was just looking at the buyout at Atlantis since 75, in financial services industry, since 91. To me I think we're similar age, so to me that doesn't seem like long at all, but I guess 91 is quite some time. So why don't you start by sharing the background and a bit more of your story and then we can get into the book? \nRajesh: Oh great, Thank you for having me here, Stuart. I'm really looking forward to this. So I came into the financial services back in 1991 and I'm originally from India. So back in 1991 here in Atlanta, there was really not a whole lot of ways that you can even reach out to the Indian community, because there was no media, there was no print, there was no radio stations. So at that time we actually launched a magazine at that time. \nSo I'm also one of the co-founders of a very popular magazine here locally called Tuber, which is KHA B-A-R, and we grew it for a long time. I was with the magazine for 22 years. I also host the Money Wise column in the magazine and about 10 years ago I sold it to my ex-business partners. But that's how I got into the financial services too. So it was a way to serve the community in a different sort of way, and over the years we've seen a lot of changes in the industry. I mean, if you look back from 1991, just remember the dot-com era and the dot-com bomb bust, and then we went to the 2008 crisis and recently the pandemic. So life is always throwing some curveballs at us. \n\nStuart: That definitely makes the 30 or so years go very fast. \n\nRajesh: So which came first? \nStuart: Did the magazine come first or the financial services career come first? \nRajesh: Actually, the financial services came first In my previous job. Before I got into the financial services, I used to work for a company that published a construction report and I was their production manager and I had some great relationships with my ex-boss and everything, so they would actually give us a key to their place once a month where we would go in with our own paper, use their opening equipment to be able to publish our little. We started out as a coupon mirror like Valpak, and then evolved it into a newsletter and then a newsprint magazine and then a four-color glossy magazine as it is today. But without the help of my ex-employer there's no way we could have started our publication. \nStuart: Right. What a fantastic way of making the most of spare capacity, being able to use those resources that I'm guessing to. It was obviously a generous offer, but to a certain degree they were kind of sat idle in those times. So being able to I don't know that we've talked about it on the podcast before, but Dean's got the kind of an acronym of VCR vision and capability and reach and the VCR method gets to market. It's more recent examples of kind of like the Kylie Jenner type makeup line of utilizing someone else's expertise and resource but her reach. But what you were doing back in the 90s, kind of identifying that gap in the market and then finding the resources to fulfill it. Such a great opportunity that is so true. \n Rajesh: Yep. I'm always looking for ways to provide values, basically by bottom mission statement. \nStuart: I should say Right, and that's the identifying the need in the marketplace or in the community, even more than marketplace, the community to share, have this place to share useful information to an audience that isn't otherwise being served. We'll get to the book in a minute, but that kind of is the seed of that journey as well. There's information and uses in your head and what's the easiest way of getting it to out to the community. So the uptake of that and I'm guessing it must have been received pretty well, in part because it was something that didn't exist before. It was the first kind of game in town. But was there anything through that journey? That was a surprise. I guess you kind of went into it with a certain expectation but, having printed and published it for a few years, was there anything that came from? It was unexpected. \n\nRajesh: Well, actually we did not even know if you were going to be able to sustain it, because the Indian community back in Atlanta back in 1991 was very small. So we would literally only take three-month agreements from clients for advertising because, just in case we had to shut it down, we didn't want to take any extra money, we had to owe it to them. \nStuart: Right, yeah, that's a great point as well, because you kind of going into it laying the track as you go, so not wanting to or having the right balance of driving it forward, but not over committing and I guess the community element as well. You're picking up advertisers from within the community. They're probably putting faith and trust in you. So you don't want to be in a situation where all of a sudden things don't go as planned and then you're left with uncomfortable conversations in a relatively small community. \nRajesh: So I think our main strength was that we were able to grow with the community. So during the 96 times we had the Olympics here in Atlanta, right, and during that time after that, we saw a huge growth in the Indian community. After that, and especially during the dot-com era, because there are a lot of software engineers from India that migrated here and then the communities from around the country found out that standard of living in Atlanta is much, much more reasonable than New York or Los Angeles or any of those other places. So there was a lot more influx of immigrants in our community and we got a chance to grow with the community at the same time Right. \nStuart: That really is a seed of that idea of building with something. It kind of reinforces this idea of it's easy to overestimate the short term and underestimate the long term. I think human beings generally kind of think in this much shorter timeframe and have much more optimistic outcomes but then sometimes miss the wood for the trees and don't see the potential huge growth over a 5, 10, 25 year timeframe as opposed to just a few months, Switching it into the financial career then and then leading towards the book. You mentioned that you were running the column in the magazine. I often talk to people who are thinking about writing a book in terms of frameworks because sometimes, particularly if they've been in business for a period of time, it's an easy thing to build a book around, to kind of have that framework, have that way of thinking and then build assets that support it, because it's an easy way to share that idea. Did you find that with the magazine column and then leading to the day-to-day business and eventually the book? Did you have a very framework type approach or was it much more kind of a guinea-ant type column of just questioning answers? \n\nRajesh: Well, I really like to do creative work story. So for my 25th anniversary, I wrote my first book called the Money Top Retirement in the State Planning for Indian Americans. It's right here and it's also on Amazon in Audio, inprint and e-books. So it was just something that was more of a bucket list goal than anything else. I just wanted to write a book. And what do you write a book about? So I really like the spiritual and motivational type of things, but there are so many books on that already. I knew financial services, but there are so many books on that as well too. \nSo I thought why don't I write a book on retirement in the state planning for the Indian American community? Because I understand the mindset, the culture that we come from, which is a little bit different than the Western mindset. In the Eastern mindset, when the parents get older, sometimes you live with the children, the children take care of them, so a lot of their retirement in the state planning type of objectives are a lot different than the Western community here. So in my first book, that's basically what we focused on Just talking about the basics in terms of why we need to be more aware of the way things are done in the West, for example, like long-term care planning, because we don't know who our kids are going to marry, what their cultural values are going to be, and even if they can afford to take care of us, they may not be able to because they're traveling and whatnot. So the idea behind it was just to ask a lot of questions and share some stories, and that would prompt people to think a little bit more about their futures. \nAnd I got a lot of positive feedback from the people that read the book, so I was very encouraged by that. So to celebrate my 30th anniversary, I wrote the second book, which is the one that we're here to talk about the Five Biggest Risks in Retirement. Thank you In this one here. What I realized when I wrote the first book is that most people don't have time nor the inclination to read a big book. Right, yeah, especially if it's on financial services. It's not like the most entertaining subject in the world. \nSo that's why we wrote a much more smaller book, something that can be consumed in 30 minutes to an hour, or maybe at the most like 90 minutes, and just to get them to start thinking about the most important things they need to be worrying about. Yeah, and in the book we also give them some solutions too. Not just the problems, but here are some of them, solutions that they can consider if they feel like that they have that potential risk in their life. \n\nStuart: It's such there's so many things to unpack from even just those few minutes of description, because the two examples that you've got the original book, which is a more traditional book, and then the 90 minute book, which is more targeted at a specific campaign. So the two things I really like from what you said is this idea in the first book of understanding who the audience is. So you're a financial planner. If people look on the 90 minute book's website, in the gallery there's more than one financial retirement based book. So finding that position or angle or the way that you present it, from knowing and understanding the audience and not thinking how is this going to appeal to the broadest group of people? But how is it going to appeal to the group of people that I engage with and can add the most value to Such a fantastic way of thinking about it, whether it's a traditional book or a 90 minute book? Because it separates you from the market and, at the end of the day, we're creating these books for the most part not to sell copies of the book's authors but to sell the ideas and then encourage people to ultimately allow us to help them some more. \nThe specifics on the first one that you talked about, which I, even in leading up to this, I never really thought about, was the idea of educating the Indian community on the difference in the Western culture and where they are now just the products that are available. \nSo not even so much writing the book that was talking to the Indian community about how they might be currently thinking or what they might have wanted to do, ideally based on the values that they brought with them from overseas, but instead saying here's the values, here's what we're trying to maintain, but here's the practical steps of how it currently exists and the kids might not be here in the same way that they would have been previously. The feedback I can imagine you were saying was great feedback and I'm guessing that there were some lessons that you took from that or some of the points that resonated that then ended up in the second book that was more specifically based on a campaign and perhaps a more business focused outline. So was that the case? Did you really take the lessons or the ones that resonated with people from the first into the second? \nRajesh: Well, most definitely so. In the first book, what I did was I did a serving of my clients, friends, prospects, you know email lists or social media, and just asked a bunch of questions in terms of you know, on different subjects, you know how prepared you feel that you are for retirement, what are your two biggest worries, those type of things. And then I also included some of those results in the book just to reiterate, say, hey, you guys told me this thing, you know, this is your, these are your answers. So so what I learned from that is that most people have, you know, the most common worries that they have is that you know living their money, health care expenses, not being able to take care of themselves, the risk of longevity, in terms of you know, those type of things. So a lot of that did make a difference in helping me write it in the five risk books too. Obviously, there's a whole lot more risk than five right, right. \nBut I use an analogy in the book. You know if you had to climb Mount Everest, you know the tallest mountain in the world you know if you reached the top, would you consider yourself a success? If you said yes, you would only be half right, because in order to be a real success, you got to reach the top and also come down safely too. And Everest actually claims more lives on the way down than it does on the way up. Why? Because you know people, you know let their guard down. \nStuart: Yeah, yeah, that's such a fantastic insight, isn't it? Because sometimes misplacing, where the goal is not having it quite at the right point. So I mentioned we do a number of books with financial services, people, obviously all different kind of angles to it, but it's not the first time I've heard someone describe this issue of they'll. People will have a target of $500,000 in a retirement account or a million dollars in a retirement account, and they kind of focus on that number and not actually what it means. So no concept of the bigger portfolio, what they're trying to do, or no concept of the balance or the income being the more important, maybe then just the net worth number. \nSo it's very insightful and I think the benefit of the five risk book which, by the way, if people are watching on YouTube rather than just the audio there's a screenshot just on my shoulder here, the cover I love the cover that you've got. I think the colors just pop in and a very obvious metaphor again for people listening that watching it's a kind of domino falling type metaphor and then being able to stop it. So this idea of the elements of the five risks being the starting point of the conversation, as you said, obviously there's more than five, but it's a good starting point to help people conceptualize perhaps the most important or the most accessible, and then there's an obvious next step that leads through. So is it easy to pick which five to include? \nRajesh: I would say yes, because a lot of them are just very straightforward. I mean, the five risks are taxes, inflation, stock market risk, health care costs and what was it going? Longevity, Longevity. So those are the five biggest risks, which is something that we see on an ongoing type of basis. We look at the current inflation that somewhere we're experiencing the volatility in the markets, the fact that we're all living much longer. \n\nStuart: And the five are ones in the top of people's minds. So, given that you're trying to start the conversation with someone at the beginning of their journey with you, it would be crazy to think about some esoteric risk on systemic failure of an insurance broker, of a stock provider. I mean, be pointless talking about that element, at least after 2009. It might have had more airtime then, but joining people where they're thinking about and leading them towards it it's one of the issues that we have when we're talking to people who've been in business for a long time is that the level of understanding and the level of knowledge and the level of complexity that you tend to be dealing with once you've been in business for a while, you move past the base level, because that's either taken care of by a system or a junior partner or something else you as the business owner or the person more senior. It tends to deal with more complicated things. So it's definitely a conversation that we have to try and remind people to just remember where the people are coming from. They're at the beginning of this conversation and you might think these pieces of information are too basic to include, but for the audience, this is exactly what their thoughts are the frameworks that you've got the five risks. \nIt's another thing that I really like about this book and I actually use it as an example when I'm talking to people quite often, because it's very straightforward. If you only looked at the table of contents, there's a very straightforward journey from the promise of the cover or the title through the chapters towards a call to action at the end. So, as you're thinking about bridging people into the next step, as they're getting a copy of the book and then thinking what to do next, I like your follow on actions that you've got in the book. Do you want to talk a little bit about where you lead people after they've read the content? \nRajesh: So one of the things that we have inside the book is a resource page so that some of the things that we talk about in there. I also have a YouTube channel where we have webinars on demand as well as we talk about the solutions to some of the problems that we talk about in the book. So one of the things that we offer them is where they can go for the resources if they want to learn a little bit more, like buy ways to pay for a long-term care, because it's something that not a whole lot of people know how to do, and there are a lot of people that may actually need to depend on Medicaid to qualify for that, and I actually went to a certification program to be a certified Medicaid planner last year, just for the knowledge, not because I wanted to do the Medicaid planning, but I realized it's a very complex space. It varies from state to state, and in order to qualify for Medicaid, you have to kind of spend down your assets in order to do so, and while doing that, sometimes what happens is that they empower the spouse, the surviving spouse, which is more often than not the lady of the house, because the men need to care earlier that they are using their cash and their savings to pay for it. They empower themselves in order to qualify for Medicaid. But I mean, that is just an example. \nSo when we talk about a lot of these types of things, the resource pages are really helpful. And if you go to our website and you download well, first of all, the five risks are available on Amazon and everything but if you want a free download of the book, you can go to our website at insurancewallacom, which is insurance-w-a-l-a-dot-com, and just put in your name and email address and you'll get a link to download a free copy of it. And if you do that, you will also maybe you will get a campaign of some of the resources that I talked about in the book. It's a two, three thing. I'm not going to spam you and all that type of stuff. I'm not really going to have the time nor the inclination to do anything like that, but I didn't want it to just reiterate the points that are in the books, because you know it is. \nWe read a book, so it's important that we forget about it. You know, out of sight, out of mind type of thing. So the objective behind it is still to get people to take some form of action. I mean, even if the action is, say look, I don't really have a plan, I'm going to have to work on something. Yeah, I may need to rely on my kids to take care of me, or I may have to do, you know, part-time work or something like that. \nStuart: Right so, but it just you start thinking, go into with your eyes open and have an awareness of what the situation is, not be kind of delusional, hoping that it'll be something that it's not going to be. Obviously there's enough time to do something about it, but at least having that awareness and acceptance is the first step. The follow-up campaign that you were talking about there in terms of amplifying some of the points within the book, within emails Again, it's a point I talked to a lot of the one-on-one clients, the strategy clients, about how can we kind of make the most of this asset now it's created and I often use the example of my email box is a bit of a disaster in two parts One because I don't always get to all of the emails, but the other reason, which is relevant, is because I mark as unread the things I actually want to do something about and with the perfect execution and the perfect will in the world, then I get back to all of these things, but time moves on and something else will happen and I don't get back to it. So the opportunity that you've got to follow up with people, both within that campaign immediately after they update those next seven to 10 days, but also in the long run. \n\nWe've got this concept of people make the decision to take the next step. You can't force that decision on them and really there's only two choices Is it for them it's either today or it's not today, and if it's not today, it could be a week or a year or a decade in the future. But by staying in touch with them over the long term and sharing, reinforcing this useful, valuable information, you've got the opportunity to intersect with them the day. That is the day for them, let's say, whether it's today or a couple of years down the track. And it's not a case of spamming them, it's not selling the list to someone else. \nIt really is a case of amplifying and sharing the useful information, which is something that they opted in and requested in the first place, just trying to add value, and I think, like you've done, the five elements within the book are those five easy things to conceptualize and get started on, but the supporting elements that are on the website and the YouTube channel just really add some depth in a broader sense. So, as someone's interested in this element, they can dive a little bit deeper, or someone else will be interested in another element and there's resources for them. We talked there briefly about the book being available on the website. How else are you using it at the moment? So using the physical versions and the digital version? \n Rajesh: Yes, so when people opt in on the digital version, I just asked them and if they want a paper copy, just email me. Then we just mail it to them. Or when we meet with clients and stuff, we will give them a copy. And here's a little book that I wrote might be helpful for you, and if there's any way I can help, just let me know. It just allows them to understand my perspective on some of the things that we're discussing, because everyone has their own money philosophy, right, so engine. \nStuart: Yeah, exactly that idea of not filtering people, but the people who get a copy of the book, who come into the office sat down in front of you. There's such a benefit because they feel like they know you, there's some rapport being built, you know that they've got some amount of not education but framework, at least that you're talking about things in a similar way, rather than coming for a discovery call out of the blue and then maybe it turns out that they've got a completely separate perspective. So it definitely does a job of, as I say, not filtering so much but rapport building before that conversation. I really like the idea and I've suggested to a couple of people. I need to follow up with them to see if they actually ever did it. But for the people who are sending out the physical copies, we're looking for opportunities to kind of amplify that even further. This idea of either folding a page down and writing a little personal note on the page or putting a little bookmark in and saying, oh, this is actually my favourite point, is just to kind of amplify that personal connection a bit more. The idea of the, to a certain degree, the book being a gift is an element of gift giving, about receiving something physical. So I always want to follow up with someone to see if they ever did it, but just add that little bit more of a personal touch. Actually, I don't know why I'm waiting for someone else to do that. I should just do it with our books, the Breakthrough Blueprint books that we've got over our own. We sent some of those. I should just do it with that. Okay, sorry, I was digressing that. The reaching out to new clients coming in and they've got the opportunity to get a physical copy and the digital copy. Do you do anything with kind of that? You might have heard us talk on the podcast before. \nJim Hackings is an immigration lawyer, a good friend of mine. He's actually my immigration lawyer as well, someone I would recommend anyone to work with. So in some of the work that we've done together we've talked about this idea of him being the go-to person for that family. It's such a personal connection, it's such a charged environment, the whole immigration process, that you really do become that family's go-to person. And passive referrals come in all the time just because there's such goodwill around it. So the opportunity to orchestrate those referrals a little bit and use the books to send them out to people in the immigration sense after they've got the immigration benefits. Okay, the next step is to look at this next tier of people. If you had opportunity to do that with clients and use the book as more of an orchestrated referral tool to say, hey, if you hear anyone talking about tax problems or retirement concerns, here's a copy of the book you can give them. \nRajesh: Yeah most definitely, and we also, you know, in the process of creating a webinar behind the five biggest risks and where we go more in depth on each risk and the challenges and solutions and everything else. It may even do this like a series of webinars too, because I think nowadays people gather information multiple ways Some are readers, some are watchers, some are listeners, so we want to make sure that we offer all the different mediums. Sometimes the most effective way is just the emails that we would send out. You're saying. You know, here's a little article I wrote on five ways to pay for long term care. \nAnd it's something that can be consumed in a couple of minutes, drives a point home, and if they're interested, then they can contact us and we can figure out what solutions are going to be right for them. \n\nStuart: Right. That's why I love five, like three to five things in a book. I'm holding up four fingers, I don't know why. Three things in a book that are on point for the overall subject. They're easy to consume and easy to get started Because then you've got the opportunity. \nSo the webinars that you were talking about I can envisage an element of that, where either it's recorded as a single go or recorded as five parts and the email follow up is the five parts. So almost sending them the copy of the book and saying, okay, here's what's going to happen over the next five days. For the quick start, people, here's a copy of the book, get started. Over the next five days I'm going to send you five short webinars where I actually go deep and go into some of the behind the scenes things and then from those five elements there will be excerpts and one, two minutes snippets from the you could use in social media advertising or promoting the fact that people can download and get the full copy of the thing here. The email that you were going to, you mentioned going out and talking about the five steps to pay for long term care. The super signature at the bottom of that PS is two ways to get started. If you want a copy of the book to read the other five risks, just grab a free copy here. And the best next step is to personalize this for you. So come into the office, schedule a discovery call. We can assess do a retirement risk assessment for you individually the fact that it's such an anchor piece for all of this other opportunity to add value and reach out to people. It really is such a benefit because it makes that next step easy for people to consume. \nI just noticed the time. I've always got slightly carried away in podcasts. I look up and realize that half an hour goes past very quick. So I just want to be conscious of your time and really appreciate you coming on and sharing this with people. As we're heading to wrapping up. Is there anything about the process of the two books not even so much the process of the two books, but how they've been received out there and some of the benefits that you've seen as a business owner and more as someone who's really passionate about helping the community? Is there anything that's come from the books that's been unexpected or wasn't necessarily what you had in mind going into it? \nRajesh: Well, I think it just gives some validation for some, and I'm hosting the column in the magazine for 25 years, so that's already there. I already have a pretty good reputation in our community with the services that we provide. So I mean all of those type of things. But I think having the books basically just gives you additional credibility, especially if you're talking to newer people that are not aware of you. \n\nAnd I think, in having some of the other things available, like the YouTube channel and whatnot, if people can just see and hear you and your demeanor, I think it makes a big difference than just talking over the phone or reading in a book too, so it just allows them to really connect it a little bit more personal sort of way. So that's really been my intention is just to once again provide value, which is a number one requirement. I mean, I'm only one man, so I can't serve the entire world, but at the same time, whoever needs help and wants to reach out to me, I'll do what I can Right. So you know, and I practice what I preach too. So anything I wrote in my books whether it be on the long term care planning, the way to reduce market risk I practice what I preach in the book too, and have done for a number of years. \n\nStuart: I mean, that's the thing that comes across. It's the I don't even want to say credibility, because that's not the right word but it's the authenticity, to a certain degree, of your approach and your passion with helping the community through the column, the longevity of that, the extra value that you're providing in other resources and other mediums. But just this approach and I can definitely imagine that the people that engage with that, who don't know you until they come in that first contact point, is going to be so much more, so much more of a personal connection than it would be otherwise. \nRajesh: But I really enjoyed doing the books with 90 minutes books, you know, stored and I actually have another one that's already in the works on finding affordable health insurance, because my wife and I they care for a couple of thousand people every year, you know, for qualifying for Obamacare, medicare, all the other type of things, and it is an area of expertise that we've developed, and so I got already started on the book, you know, and I'm looking forward to release that later on this year as well, too Fantastic, and it's just another way of seeing, you know, is this a better way than doing the big, larger books, you know, because I do need to do a revision of the money top, because now five years has gone by, a lot of things have changed All right, so we've got some new lessons learned from the pandemic which can be included in the original book as well too. \n\nStuart: Right, exactly, I mean that idea of making sure that something is not set in stone and it can be updated to keep it relevant and keep it valuable. \nI mean that's the benefit of 90 minute books as an example, because they are much smaller and easier to manage and maintain, but any book it definitely should. Be the case that I think there's this traditional sense that it's I don't know whether it comes from where books came from, in the sense of like printing presses and the fact that it was virtually impossible to create them. So they do very much get this concept of being set in stone and that's it. And even when you look at like technical things, like ISBNs and revision numbers, it's very much based on as soon as the inks dry on the page, that's it and it can never be changed. And then something else is a different thing, which really doesn't reflect today's society and how quickly information changes. So I'm really looking forward to helping get that second, one or third one out there and looking around a funnel for that as well. So as we wrap, then I want to make sure that people have got access to you and what you guys are doing. So what is the best place for people to follow along and check out more of what you and the business are doing. \nRajesh: Well, the best way would be just our website at insurancewallicom, which is insurancewacom. It's a unique name, being a sense that Walli just means a provider of, so that's a. I also have another website too, for Shalin Financial, which is more of the financial site. Shalin is my older son's name, so the company was named after him. Ah, fantastic. But the insurancewallicom has got a lot of our resources to look down loads and all the different things, and if you'd like to join our email blast, you're more than welcome to download a free copies of both of my books. When I do creative work, it's more about sharing than selling. \nSo I just like to reach as many people as possible. \nStuart: And that's the underlying. I think that's the benefit of having helped over a create a thousand books now and I think we're about 900 or so authors. The theme across everyone is this giving first mentality and sharing value, and we've got so much collective knowledge in our heads, unfortunately. I mean, it's this sad side of being in business for 10 years that you must see the same people pass away Unfortunately and you think of all of that knowledge that they take with them. So it's definitely the benefit of working with guys like you and our other authors. It's that giving first mentality. So I'll make sure we've got links to insurance wallet in the show description. Hopefully it's easy enough for people to remember as well. Coming from the UK, there's obviously a big Indian community in the UK. So when I remember seeing the URL on the book as it was going through in the first place and it brought a smile to my face because it was a term I hadn't heard for a few years. So I'll make sure that we put a link to that in the show notes. So, rj, just want to say thanks again for your time. You really shared some great information here. Hopefully it's encouraged some people to jump in help their communities as well. So thanks again, and we'll check back in in a couple of months or a year and see how things are going, or maybe after the next book launches. We'll check in again and up there. It was a pleasure, stuart. Thank you for having me here. No problem, everyone. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you in the next one. ","content_html":"RJ has been a pillar of the Indian community in Atlanta for many years and started a financial column in a magazine he helped create back in the 90's. Several years ago, he distilled this knowledge into a traditional book called 'Money Talk,' and last year he created a conversation-starting book, 'The 5 Biggest Risks in Retirement', to answer 5 of the most important retirement questions his community has.
\n\nThis is a great call as we talk about how RJ dialed in his audience by understanding who he can best help, how he chose the information to share in a conversation-starting book, and how he's using it to serve his community better.
\n\nRJ's passion for delivering value comes through in everything he does, and this call is a great reminder there are people out there hunting for the information in your head, and your book is a great way to help them start their journey.
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/131
\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: That definitely makes the 30 or so years go very fast.
\n\nRajesh: So which came first?
\nStuart: Did the magazine come first or the financial services career come first?
\nRajesh: Actually, the financial services came first In my previous job. Before I got into the financial services, I used to work for a company that published a construction report and I was their production manager and I had some great relationships with my ex-boss and everything, so they would actually give us a key to their place once a month where we would go in with our own paper, use their opening equipment to be able to publish our little. We started out as a coupon mirror like Valpak, and then evolved it into a newsletter and then a newsprint magazine and then a four-color glossy magazine as it is today. But without the help of my ex-employer there's no way we could have started our publication.
\nStuart: Right. What a fantastic way of making the most of spare capacity, being able to use those resources that I'm guessing to. It was obviously a generous offer, but to a certain degree they were kind of sat idle in those times. So being able to I don't know that we've talked about it on the podcast before, but Dean's got the kind of an acronym of VCR vision and capability and reach and the VCR method gets to market. It's more recent examples of kind of like the Kylie Jenner type makeup line of utilizing someone else's expertise and resource but her reach. But what you were doing back in the 90s, kind of identifying that gap in the market and then finding the resources to fulfill it. Such a great opportunity that is so true.
\n Rajesh: Yep. I'm always looking for ways to provide values, basically by bottom mission statement.
\nStuart: I should say Right, and that's the identifying the need in the marketplace or in the community, even more than marketplace, the community to share, have this place to share useful information to an audience that isn't otherwise being served. We'll get to the book in a minute, but that kind of is the seed of that journey as well. There's information and uses in your head and what's the easiest way of getting it to out to the community. So the uptake of that and I'm guessing it must have been received pretty well, in part because it was something that didn't exist before. It was the first kind of game in town. But was there anything through that journey? That was a surprise. I guess you kind of went into it with a certain expectation but, having printed and published it for a few years, was there anything that came from? It was unexpected.
Rajesh: Well, actually we did not even know if you were going to be able to sustain it, because the Indian community back in Atlanta back in 1991 was very small. So we would literally only take three-month agreements from clients for advertising because, just in case we had to shut it down, we didn't want to take any extra money, we had to owe it to them.
\nStuart: Right, yeah, that's a great point as well, because you kind of going into it laying the track as you go, so not wanting to or having the right balance of driving it forward, but not over committing and I guess the community element as well. You're picking up advertisers from within the community. They're probably putting faith and trust in you. So you don't want to be in a situation where all of a sudden things don't go as planned and then you're left with uncomfortable conversations in a relatively small community.
\nRajesh: So I think our main strength was that we were able to grow with the community. So during the 96 times we had the Olympics here in Atlanta, right, and during that time after that, we saw a huge growth in the Indian community. After that, and especially during the dot-com era, because there are a lot of software engineers from India that migrated here and then the communities from around the country found out that standard of living in Atlanta is much, much more reasonable than New York or Los Angeles or any of those other places. So there was a lot more influx of immigrants in our community and we got a chance to grow with the community at the same time Right.
\nStuart: That really is a seed of that idea of building with something. It kind of reinforces this idea of it's easy to overestimate the short term and underestimate the long term. I think human beings generally kind of think in this much shorter timeframe and have much more optimistic outcomes but then sometimes miss the wood for the trees and don't see the potential huge growth over a 5, 10, 25 year timeframe as opposed to just a few months, Switching it into the financial career then and then leading towards the book. You mentioned that you were running the column in the magazine. I often talk to people who are thinking about writing a book in terms of frameworks because sometimes, particularly if they've been in business for a period of time, it's an easy thing to build a book around, to kind of have that framework, have that way of thinking and then build assets that support it, because it's an easy way to share that idea. Did you find that with the magazine column and then leading to the day-to-day business and eventually the book? Did you have a very framework type approach or was it much more kind of a guinea-ant type column of just questioning answers?
Rajesh: Well, I really like to do creative work story. So for my 25th anniversary, I wrote my first book called the Money Top Retirement in the State Planning for Indian Americans. It's right here and it's also on Amazon in Audio, inprint and e-books. So it was just something that was more of a bucket list goal than anything else. I just wanted to write a book. And what do you write a book about? So I really like the spiritual and motivational type of things, but there are so many books on that already. I knew financial services, but there are so many books on that as well too.
\nSo I thought why don't I write a book on retirement in the state planning for the Indian American community? Because I understand the mindset, the culture that we come from, which is a little bit different than the Western mindset. In the Eastern mindset, when the parents get older, sometimes you live with the children, the children take care of them, so a lot of their retirement in the state planning type of objectives are a lot different than the Western community here. So in my first book, that's basically what we focused on Just talking about the basics in terms of why we need to be more aware of the way things are done in the West, for example, like long-term care planning, because we don't know who our kids are going to marry, what their cultural values are going to be, and even if they can afford to take care of us, they may not be able to because they're traveling and whatnot. So the idea behind it was just to ask a lot of questions and share some stories, and that would prompt people to think a little bit more about their futures.
\nAnd I got a lot of positive feedback from the people that read the book, so I was very encouraged by that. So to celebrate my 30th anniversary, I wrote the second book, which is the one that we're here to talk about the Five Biggest Risks in Retirement. Thank you In this one here. What I realized when I wrote the first book is that most people don't have time nor the inclination to read a big book. Right, yeah, especially if it's on financial services. It's not like the most entertaining subject in the world.
\nSo that's why we wrote a much more smaller book, something that can be consumed in 30 minutes to an hour, or maybe at the most like 90 minutes, and just to get them to start thinking about the most important things they need to be worrying about. Yeah, and in the book we also give them some solutions too. Not just the problems, but here are some of them, solutions that they can consider if they feel like that they have that potential risk in their life.
Stuart: It's such there's so many things to unpack from even just those few minutes of description, because the two examples that you've got the original book, which is a more traditional book, and then the 90 minute book, which is more targeted at a specific campaign. So the two things I really like from what you said is this idea in the first book of understanding who the audience is. So you're a financial planner. If people look on the 90 minute book's website, in the gallery there's more than one financial retirement based book. So finding that position or angle or the way that you present it, from knowing and understanding the audience and not thinking how is this going to appeal to the broadest group of people? But how is it going to appeal to the group of people that I engage with and can add the most value to Such a fantastic way of thinking about it, whether it's a traditional book or a 90 minute book? Because it separates you from the market and, at the end of the day, we're creating these books for the most part not to sell copies of the book's authors but to sell the ideas and then encourage people to ultimately allow us to help them some more.
\nThe specifics on the first one that you talked about, which I, even in leading up to this, I never really thought about, was the idea of educating the Indian community on the difference in the Western culture and where they are now just the products that are available.
\nSo not even so much writing the book that was talking to the Indian community about how they might be currently thinking or what they might have wanted to do, ideally based on the values that they brought with them from overseas, but instead saying here's the values, here's what we're trying to maintain, but here's the practical steps of how it currently exists and the kids might not be here in the same way that they would have been previously. The feedback I can imagine you were saying was great feedback and I'm guessing that there were some lessons that you took from that or some of the points that resonated that then ended up in the second book that was more specifically based on a campaign and perhaps a more business focused outline. So was that the case? Did you really take the lessons or the ones that resonated with people from the first into the second?
\nRajesh: Well, most definitely so. In the first book, what I did was I did a serving of my clients, friends, prospects, you know email lists or social media, and just asked a bunch of questions in terms of you know, on different subjects, you know how prepared you feel that you are for retirement, what are your two biggest worries, those type of things. And then I also included some of those results in the book just to reiterate, say, hey, you guys told me this thing, you know, this is your, these are your answers. So so what I learned from that is that most people have, you know, the most common worries that they have is that you know living their money, health care expenses, not being able to take care of themselves, the risk of longevity, in terms of you know, those type of things. So a lot of that did make a difference in helping me write it in the five risk books too. Obviously, there's a whole lot more risk than five right, right.
\nBut I use an analogy in the book. You know if you had to climb Mount Everest, you know the tallest mountain in the world you know if you reached the top, would you consider yourself a success? If you said yes, you would only be half right, because in order to be a real success, you got to reach the top and also come down safely too. And Everest actually claims more lives on the way down than it does on the way up. Why? Because you know people, you know let their guard down.
\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, that's such a fantastic insight, isn't it? Because sometimes misplacing, where the goal is not having it quite at the right point. So I mentioned we do a number of books with financial services, people, obviously all different kind of angles to it, but it's not the first time I've heard someone describe this issue of they'll. People will have a target of $500,000 in a retirement account or a million dollars in a retirement account, and they kind of focus on that number and not actually what it means. So no concept of the bigger portfolio, what they're trying to do, or no concept of the balance or the income being the more important, maybe then just the net worth number.
\nSo it's very insightful and I think the benefit of the five risk book which, by the way, if people are watching on YouTube rather than just the audio there's a screenshot just on my shoulder here, the cover I love the cover that you've got. I think the colors just pop in and a very obvious metaphor again for people listening that watching it's a kind of domino falling type metaphor and then being able to stop it. So this idea of the elements of the five risks being the starting point of the conversation, as you said, obviously there's more than five, but it's a good starting point to help people conceptualize perhaps the most important or the most accessible, and then there's an obvious next step that leads through. So is it easy to pick which five to include?
\nRajesh: I would say yes, because a lot of them are just very straightforward. I mean, the five risks are taxes, inflation, stock market risk, health care costs and what was it going? Longevity, Longevity. So those are the five biggest risks, which is something that we see on an ongoing type of basis. We look at the current inflation that somewhere we're experiencing the volatility in the markets, the fact that we're all living much longer.
Stuart: And the five are ones in the top of people's minds. So, given that you're trying to start the conversation with someone at the beginning of their journey with you, it would be crazy to think about some esoteric risk on systemic failure of an insurance broker, of a stock provider. I mean, be pointless talking about that element, at least after 2009. It might have had more airtime then, but joining people where they're thinking about and leading them towards it it's one of the issues that we have when we're talking to people who've been in business for a long time is that the level of understanding and the level of knowledge and the level of complexity that you tend to be dealing with once you've been in business for a while, you move past the base level, because that's either taken care of by a system or a junior partner or something else you as the business owner or the person more senior. It tends to deal with more complicated things. So it's definitely a conversation that we have to try and remind people to just remember where the people are coming from. They're at the beginning of this conversation and you might think these pieces of information are too basic to include, but for the audience, this is exactly what their thoughts are the frameworks that you've got the five risks.
\nIt's another thing that I really like about this book and I actually use it as an example when I'm talking to people quite often, because it's very straightforward. If you only looked at the table of contents, there's a very straightforward journey from the promise of the cover or the title through the chapters towards a call to action at the end. So, as you're thinking about bridging people into the next step, as they're getting a copy of the book and then thinking what to do next, I like your follow on actions that you've got in the book. Do you want to talk a little bit about where you lead people after they've read the content?
\nRajesh: So one of the things that we have inside the book is a resource page so that some of the things that we talk about in there. I also have a YouTube channel where we have webinars on demand as well as we talk about the solutions to some of the problems that we talk about in the book. So one of the things that we offer them is where they can go for the resources if they want to learn a little bit more, like buy ways to pay for a long-term care, because it's something that not a whole lot of people know how to do, and there are a lot of people that may actually need to depend on Medicaid to qualify for that, and I actually went to a certification program to be a certified Medicaid planner last year, just for the knowledge, not because I wanted to do the Medicaid planning, but I realized it's a very complex space. It varies from state to state, and in order to qualify for Medicaid, you have to kind of spend down your assets in order to do so, and while doing that, sometimes what happens is that they empower the spouse, the surviving spouse, which is more often than not the lady of the house, because the men need to care earlier that they are using their cash and their savings to pay for it. They empower themselves in order to qualify for Medicaid. But I mean, that is just an example.
\nSo when we talk about a lot of these types of things, the resource pages are really helpful. And if you go to our website and you download well, first of all, the five risks are available on Amazon and everything but if you want a free download of the book, you can go to our website at insurancewallacom, which is insurance-w-a-l-a-dot-com, and just put in your name and email address and you'll get a link to download a free copy of it. And if you do that, you will also maybe you will get a campaign of some of the resources that I talked about in the book. It's a two, three thing. I'm not going to spam you and all that type of stuff. I'm not really going to have the time nor the inclination to do anything like that, but I didn't want it to just reiterate the points that are in the books, because you know it is.
\nWe read a book, so it's important that we forget about it. You know, out of sight, out of mind type of thing. So the objective behind it is still to get people to take some form of action. I mean, even if the action is, say look, I don't really have a plan, I'm going to have to work on something. Yeah, I may need to rely on my kids to take care of me, or I may have to do, you know, part-time work or something like that.
\nStuart: Right so, but it just you start thinking, go into with your eyes open and have an awareness of what the situation is, not be kind of delusional, hoping that it'll be something that it's not going to be. Obviously there's enough time to do something about it, but at least having that awareness and acceptance is the first step. The follow-up campaign that you were talking about there in terms of amplifying some of the points within the book, within emails Again, it's a point I talked to a lot of the one-on-one clients, the strategy clients, about how can we kind of make the most of this asset now it's created and I often use the example of my email box is a bit of a disaster in two parts One because I don't always get to all of the emails, but the other reason, which is relevant, is because I mark as unread the things I actually want to do something about and with the perfect execution and the perfect will in the world, then I get back to all of these things, but time moves on and something else will happen and I don't get back to it. So the opportunity that you've got to follow up with people, both within that campaign immediately after they update those next seven to 10 days, but also in the long run.
We've got this concept of people make the decision to take the next step. You can't force that decision on them and really there's only two choices Is it for them it's either today or it's not today, and if it's not today, it could be a week or a year or a decade in the future. But by staying in touch with them over the long term and sharing, reinforcing this useful, valuable information, you've got the opportunity to intersect with them the day. That is the day for them, let's say, whether it's today or a couple of years down the track. And it's not a case of spamming them, it's not selling the list to someone else.
\nIt really is a case of amplifying and sharing the useful information, which is something that they opted in and requested in the first place, just trying to add value, and I think, like you've done, the five elements within the book are those five easy things to conceptualize and get started on, but the supporting elements that are on the website and the YouTube channel just really add some depth in a broader sense. So, as someone's interested in this element, they can dive a little bit deeper, or someone else will be interested in another element and there's resources for them. We talked there briefly about the book being available on the website. How else are you using it at the moment? So using the physical versions and the digital version?
\n Rajesh: Yes, so when people opt in on the digital version, I just asked them and if they want a paper copy, just email me. Then we just mail it to them. Or when we meet with clients and stuff, we will give them a copy. And here's a little book that I wrote might be helpful for you, and if there's any way I can help, just let me know. It just allows them to understand my perspective on some of the things that we're discussing, because everyone has their own money philosophy, right, so engine.
\nStuart: Yeah, exactly that idea of not filtering people, but the people who get a copy of the book, who come into the office sat down in front of you. There's such a benefit because they feel like they know you, there's some rapport being built, you know that they've got some amount of not education but framework, at least that you're talking about things in a similar way, rather than coming for a discovery call out of the blue and then maybe it turns out that they've got a completely separate perspective. So it definitely does a job of, as I say, not filtering so much but rapport building before that conversation. I really like the idea and I've suggested to a couple of people. I need to follow up with them to see if they actually ever did it. But for the people who are sending out the physical copies, we're looking for opportunities to kind of amplify that even further. This idea of either folding a page down and writing a little personal note on the page or putting a little bookmark in and saying, oh, this is actually my favourite point, is just to kind of amplify that personal connection a bit more. The idea of the, to a certain degree, the book being a gift is an element of gift giving, about receiving something physical. So I always want to follow up with someone to see if they ever did it, but just add that little bit more of a personal touch. Actually, I don't know why I'm waiting for someone else to do that. I should just do it with our books, the Breakthrough Blueprint books that we've got over our own. We sent some of those. I should just do it with that. Okay, sorry, I was digressing that. The reaching out to new clients coming in and they've got the opportunity to get a physical copy and the digital copy. Do you do anything with kind of that? You might have heard us talk on the podcast before.
\nJim Hackings is an immigration lawyer, a good friend of mine. He's actually my immigration lawyer as well, someone I would recommend anyone to work with. So in some of the work that we've done together we've talked about this idea of him being the go-to person for that family. It's such a personal connection, it's such a charged environment, the whole immigration process, that you really do become that family's go-to person. And passive referrals come in all the time just because there's such goodwill around it. So the opportunity to orchestrate those referrals a little bit and use the books to send them out to people in the immigration sense after they've got the immigration benefits. Okay, the next step is to look at this next tier of people. If you had opportunity to do that with clients and use the book as more of an orchestrated referral tool to say, hey, if you hear anyone talking about tax problems or retirement concerns, here's a copy of the book you can give them.
\nRajesh: Yeah most definitely, and we also, you know, in the process of creating a webinar behind the five biggest risks and where we go more in depth on each risk and the challenges and solutions and everything else. It may even do this like a series of webinars too, because I think nowadays people gather information multiple ways Some are readers, some are watchers, some are listeners, so we want to make sure that we offer all the different mediums. Sometimes the most effective way is just the emails that we would send out. You're saying. You know, here's a little article I wrote on five ways to pay for long term care.
\nAnd it's something that can be consumed in a couple of minutes, drives a point home, and if they're interested, then they can contact us and we can figure out what solutions are going to be right for them.
Stuart: Right. That's why I love five, like three to five things in a book. I'm holding up four fingers, I don't know why. Three things in a book that are on point for the overall subject. They're easy to consume and easy to get started Because then you've got the opportunity.
\nSo the webinars that you were talking about I can envisage an element of that, where either it's recorded as a single go or recorded as five parts and the email follow up is the five parts. So almost sending them the copy of the book and saying, okay, here's what's going to happen over the next five days. For the quick start, people, here's a copy of the book, get started. Over the next five days I'm going to send you five short webinars where I actually go deep and go into some of the behind the scenes things and then from those five elements there will be excerpts and one, two minutes snippets from the you could use in social media advertising or promoting the fact that people can download and get the full copy of the thing here. The email that you were going to, you mentioned going out and talking about the five steps to pay for long term care. The super signature at the bottom of that PS is two ways to get started. If you want a copy of the book to read the other five risks, just grab a free copy here. And the best next step is to personalize this for you. So come into the office, schedule a discovery call. We can assess do a retirement risk assessment for you individually the fact that it's such an anchor piece for all of this other opportunity to add value and reach out to people. It really is such a benefit because it makes that next step easy for people to consume.
\nI just noticed the time. I've always got slightly carried away in podcasts. I look up and realize that half an hour goes past very quick. So I just want to be conscious of your time and really appreciate you coming on and sharing this with people. As we're heading to wrapping up. Is there anything about the process of the two books not even so much the process of the two books, but how they've been received out there and some of the benefits that you've seen as a business owner and more as someone who's really passionate about helping the community? Is there anything that's come from the books that's been unexpected or wasn't necessarily what you had in mind going into it?
\nRajesh: Well, I think it just gives some validation for some, and I'm hosting the column in the magazine for 25 years, so that's already there. I already have a pretty good reputation in our community with the services that we provide. So I mean all of those type of things. But I think having the books basically just gives you additional credibility, especially if you're talking to newer people that are not aware of you.
And I think, in having some of the other things available, like the YouTube channel and whatnot, if people can just see and hear you and your demeanor, I think it makes a big difference than just talking over the phone or reading in a book too, so it just allows them to really connect it a little bit more personal sort of way. So that's really been my intention is just to once again provide value, which is a number one requirement. I mean, I'm only one man, so I can't serve the entire world, but at the same time, whoever needs help and wants to reach out to me, I'll do what I can Right. So you know, and I practice what I preach too. So anything I wrote in my books whether it be on the long term care planning, the way to reduce market risk I practice what I preach in the book too, and have done for a number of years.
\n\nStuart: I mean, that's the thing that comes across. It's the I don't even want to say credibility, because that's not the right word but it's the authenticity, to a certain degree, of your approach and your passion with helping the community through the column, the longevity of that, the extra value that you're providing in other resources and other mediums. But just this approach and I can definitely imagine that the people that engage with that, who don't know you until they come in that first contact point, is going to be so much more, so much more of a personal connection than it would be otherwise.
\nRajesh: But I really enjoyed doing the books with 90 minutes books, you know, stored and I actually have another one that's already in the works on finding affordable health insurance, because my wife and I they care for a couple of thousand people every year, you know, for qualifying for Obamacare, medicare, all the other type of things, and it is an area of expertise that we've developed, and so I got already started on the book, you know, and I'm looking forward to release that later on this year as well, too Fantastic, and it's just another way of seeing, you know, is this a better way than doing the big, larger books, you know, because I do need to do a revision of the money top, because now five years has gone by, a lot of things have changed All right, so we've got some new lessons learned from the pandemic which can be included in the original book as well too.
Stuart: Right, exactly, I mean that idea of making sure that something is not set in stone and it can be updated to keep it relevant and keep it valuable.
\nI mean that's the benefit of 90 minute books as an example, because they are much smaller and easier to manage and maintain, but any book it definitely should. Be the case that I think there's this traditional sense that it's I don't know whether it comes from where books came from, in the sense of like printing presses and the fact that it was virtually impossible to create them. So they do very much get this concept of being set in stone and that's it. And even when you look at like technical things, like ISBNs and revision numbers, it's very much based on as soon as the inks dry on the page, that's it and it can never be changed. And then something else is a different thing, which really doesn't reflect today's society and how quickly information changes. So I'm really looking forward to helping get that second, one or third one out there and looking around a funnel for that as well. So as we wrap, then I want to make sure that people have got access to you and what you guys are doing. So what is the best place for people to follow along and check out more of what you and the business are doing.
\nRajesh: Well, the best way would be just our website at insurancewallicom, which is insurancewacom. It's a unique name, being a sense that Walli just means a provider of, so that's a. I also have another website too, for Shalin Financial, which is more of the financial site. Shalin is my older son's name, so the company was named after him. Ah, fantastic. But the insurancewallicom has got a lot of our resources to look down loads and all the different things, and if you'd like to join our email blast, you're more than welcome to download a free copies of both of my books. When I do creative work, it's more about sharing than selling.
\nSo I just like to reach as many people as possible.
\nStuart: And that's the underlying. I think that's the benefit of having helped over a create a thousand books now and I think we're about 900 or so authors. The theme across everyone is this giving first mentality and sharing value, and we've got so much collective knowledge in our heads, unfortunately. I mean, it's this sad side of being in business for 10 years that you must see the same people pass away Unfortunately and you think of all of that knowledge that they take with them. So it's definitely the benefit of working with guys like you and our other authors. It's that giving first mentality. So I'll make sure we've got links to insurance wallet in the show description. Hopefully it's easy enough for people to remember as well. Coming from the UK, there's obviously a big Indian community in the UK. So when I remember seeing the URL on the book as it was going through in the first place and it brought a smile to my face because it was a term I hadn't heard for a few years. So I'll make sure that we put a link to that in the show notes. So, rj, just want to say thanks again for your time. You really shared some great information here. Hopefully it's encouraged some people to jump in help their communities as well. So thanks again, and we'll check back in in a couple of months or a year and see how things are going, or maybe after the next book launches. We'll check in again and up there. It was a pleasure, stuart. Thank you for having me here. No problem, everyone. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you in the next one.
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Karim ElMofty, dentist with Southdown Dental in Mississauga, Ontario and coauthor of How Do I Take Care of My Children's Teeth, a book that helps parents make confident dental choices for their children from newborns through teens.
\n\nKarim and his partners at Southdown are passionate about dispelling dental myths and providing great information and have established KnowDental.ca as an educational resource to help improve people understanding of good dental hygiene. Their latest book builds on this work with parents as the audience.
\n\nIt's a great conversation looking at ways this book supports their educational goals, as well as all the ways they can use it as a referral tool with the families they've been supporting for generations.
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/130
\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got another great interview with one of our authors. We've got Karima Almofty, who's a dentist based out of actually, I don't know where you are geographically, Karim, where are you based?
\n\nDr. Karim: I'm currently practicing in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada.
\n\nStuart: Ah, fantastic. So Karim's on the fly, joining us on the move. So if you're watching the video, don't be surprised that it says thumbnail and you don't see him talking. But we really wanted to grab the moment and get this recorded. So I guess the best place to start is Karim, if you share with people what the business is, and then who it is that you're serving at the moment, and then we can jump off from there.
\n\nDr. Karim: Okay, perfect. Hi Stuart, how are you? Thank you for hosting me here and having this conversation. I am very happy to be telling my story. I'm very excited about this book. So my name is Karim Almofty, I'm a dentist. I work in Mississauga, Ontario. I have advanced training in children dentistry, pediatric dentistry. I'm a general practitioner but I'm looking into this area more and I'm looking also into the dental public health, specifically the oral health education, where I finished my master's degree in Egypt almost what? Seven, eight years ago almost and yeah, now the business is dentistry. We're doing dental service in South Down Dental Mississauga. I work with my partners, slash mentors, Dr Khaled Khaled, Dr Bob Vavaruzos, who both co-authored the book. I work with them, I learn from them. It's a great team we have here. I'm focused towards oral health education as well, so this also triggered the book to try to provide answers and to tell the story of how to take care of your children's teeth.
\n\nStuart: Basically, it's such a great niche because there is something, there is an education piece that's missing. I think I remember being so. I'm 46, 47. So I remember back when I was in school there were dental hygienists in the school, would come around every so often, but here in parents' talk now I'm not sure whether that's the case and again, that was in the UK, so maybe that's never been the case in North America. But the opportunity to share information with people in a pretty accessible way. I'll make sure we link to the cover of the book in the show notes. So it's such a great and engaging cover. And this idea of talking to parents about how they can make better choices, did you find that was a problem? People were coming in and really not knowing what the best choices were to make and looking for that information.
\n\nDr. Karim: Unfortunately. Yes, and of course to varying degrees. So you mentioned being located in the UK. Now I'm working out of Mississauga, Canada. I used to live in Egypt before where I did most of my education. I had some training in the States, had some training, brief training in China. So everywhere you go, the information is out there, but I Don't know you know the saying that we live in a world today of where information is abundant, but the actual answers to questions scares right. So, of course, you can Google anything, you can look for anything on Bing, you can use any search engine you can think of, but now chat GPT, it seems, but where is the actual answer to the question that I have?
\n\nStuart: so.
\n\nDr. Karim: I can't really call it a problem, because Everywhere you go, there is an ongoing system that makes sure that people get the answers to the question and understand how to take care of their health, how to take care of their teeth. Everyone who goes to a doctor the doctor would will tell him a little bit about how to go ahead, how to do that. But we can always benefit from more simplification, more Facilitation of the science, of the current science, because science is always changing methods that used to work 10 years ago. Maybe we have better methods today, maybe. So this is what I'm talking about. It's not a problem, but we can definitely benefit from more information About the topic, except, especially when it's directed to the parents, who are they just really do what they're best. They just really do want to do what's best for their children.
\n\nStuart: So, yeah, it's in a moment in their life when they're kind of desperate for information and really trying to be as helpful as possible. It's. This isn't a situation where there's a pressing need that they need to resolve the problem and a Desire to make the right choices, because they're kind of very tuned into the long-term consequences.
\n\nDr. Karim: Yes, yes and also yes.
\n\nStuart: I was just gonna say I liked what you were saying as well about. There isn't a shortage of information out there these days. Two minutes of googling for something and you'll find a wealth of information, but that doesn't necessarily help in the final decision of what the instruction is or what the practical advice is. There's a lot of theoretical advice and a lot of conflicting advice. So your approach of writing something that's kind of comprehensive on this one subject that's helpful. Did you find it difficult narrowing down what to include and what to exclude? Or, based on your general practice, is it easy to know which of the top five or six things to address?
\n\nDr. Karim: So that's a very good question because actually you pointed at exactly the technique I used to Arrange the subject and subjects in the book and to narrow down the different topics I'm talking about. This is not a scientific book Like. If you're looking for the science and the evidence and there is no shortage of that you will know how to find it in different types of books. And, at the same time, this is not a book that's talking about recent trends and all of this Direction. Also, there is another book for that but this is actually a book that was put together from you can call it the frequently asked questions that all the time we are trying to answer in different ways.
\nSo the challenge was actually not to look at different topics to talk about. The challenge was how to simplify the information, try to put it down in a practical way and, at the same time, make people understand that every case will always be different. Every person is different, everybody is different. So of course, you have to seek medical advice, but the general advice as to how to take care of your health it will remain general right. So that was the challenge how to narrow it down but at the same time, it's impossible to target health advice to every person in the world in one book. It doesn't work this way, yeah.
Stuart: Those three or four things that you hit on there. As some of the conversations we have day in, day out with people, I'm trying to help them overcome whatever barrier or block they've got to get and started. So oftentimes we'll have people who are it's the two ends of the spectrum. Sometimes people will be doubtful that they know enough information and other times people will have too much information or too advanced information and they're trying to jump too far down the track. So when we think of the job of work is to engage those people at the top of the funnel to provide help in the early stages of the conversation, then if you've been in business for more than a year, you probably know enough of those frequently asked questions that you mentioned to pull something together that's really helping people. And if you've been in business for 10 years, then it's valuable to remember that all of the basic stuff that you take for granted, other people really find it valuable because they're earlier in the journey. So I really like again that you were trying to pull together something that's focused on helping those people but not getting bogged down in the fact that every case is actually unique. But we need to sell some somewhere.
\n\nDr. Karim: Absolutely, and there is an added layer of complexity to this, Stuart. It's this part is directed to every new parents out there. When you're a new parent, the amount of work that you have to put into your everyday life, the lack of sleep, the motivation to do everything in the perfect way to your child all of this adds a lot to the pressure to new parents, and how to integrate this health message, this oral health message, into their everyday life has to be practical. We have to know that we always target to the 100%, but if you get to the 60%, if you get to the 70%, you're still doing your best. Your best is different than my best, is different than everyone else's. So this individual advice also it's very important to know that Of course, we wanna do the 100%. Everyone wants to do the best for their children, but I don't know. We have to also give ourselves a break. You know, yeah.
\n\nStuart: It's the exactly it's that element of giving yourself a break and understanding that all of the effort that you do ink is targeted in the right way and not allow the fear of the hundred percent or the fear of missing the market a little bit to cause much much mental baggage or stress in a time that's very stressful anyway.
\n\nDr. Karim: I don't know if I don't know if this last part gave away that I am a new parent myself or not.
\n\nStuart: yet you can hear the passion and the sympathy.
\n\nDr. Karim: There you go, there you go.
\n\nStuart: Well that I mean you're getting the that exact experience out of dentistry, which obviously is your field of expertise. You must notice it in all of these other ways. I always kind of I think it was a TV show or movie, or I've heard in some marketing speak the example of someone going in and buying baby carriage or baby stroller, baby chair thing and the salesman saying, well, we've got this model in this model, but for people who really love their children, then there's this model which is more expensive. So that whole industry of adding extra pressure. You must, as a new parent, feel that in non dentistry related things to a certain degree.
\n\nDr. Karim: Oh, of course, Of course, of course.
\n\nStuart: I think the accessibility of the book. So, as you started, the book itself is called how do I take care of my children's teeth. So it's very non judgmental. It's not adding any additional pressure, it's just providing an answer in the title kind of question magnet book types we talk about sometimes, or how to book types.
\n\nDr. Karim: Yeah.
\n\nStuart: Well as people. I know this is a relatively recently finished project, but have you got any feedback yet from real people receiving this and how it's being received by parents?
\n\nDr. Karim: I'm really looking forward to hear this feedback and I'm expecting it very soon.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's. We're always excited to see podcasts with people, so we tend to jump in a little bit early and before examples, but it does give us the opportunity to say, hey, we have to come back in a few months and check in, so let's jump then. So it's not, we've just finished. It. It's not in the hands of parents. We're going to pivot and we'll get a lot of information coming back from them as they're receiving it. When you started the project, did you have a feel or an idea of how you were getting it to those people? You talked about the education piece, but then you've got all of your clients and people coming into the practice. Did you have an idea for the distribution element?
\n\nDr. Karim: Yes, the book is going to be available on Amazon. You can buy it through Amazon, which is the most accessible way, it seems, nowadays. At the same time, we will actually be. We will have the book available for dental office in the South Down Dental here in Mississauga Every oral health education project that South Down Dental sponsors.
\nSo, south Down Dental, we really believe in community engagement, we really believe in the spread of the oral health message, so we go sometimes they sponsor sessions to go to schools around, to go to all different groups of people to teach them about oral health. Through through a company called no Dental that I started, we use educational games and tools and what we make the oral health message fun and reachable and accessible. So, anyways, any in any way that South Down Dental is reaching out to people, most probably this book is going to be distributed out and given to our audience, together with two other books actually that were previously published by Dr Khaled Khaled, who are available right now at the office as we speak. So we really believe in spreading the information out. That's really the bottom line.
Stuart: And what great opportunity. I mean, you can imagine the scenario where kids are coming home after a dentist has been into school and they come home with a little cheap toothbrushes and a couple of flyers. But as the parents are going through the bag at the end of the day and then pull out the book, how do I take home my children's teeth? Accessible formats, it's easy to consume. There's some clear next steps and some options that people can take towards their end.
\nSo much more engaging and start in the relationship, particularly in an area I mean the practice is in, mrs Argo. It has a geographic location to it, so being known as the people who are helping within that 50 mile radius, that's, 100% of your clients live in that area. So to be able to deliver something of value, we talk sometimes in the Beyond the Book module of how to get it out there, of this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses. So, for example, we're sometimes talking about doctors working with camera practice or accountants working with printers, because they're in the same kind of industry but not the exact same services. This opportunity to share more of your information in the educational space, because, on the flip side, the government organizations or the non-government organizations who are trying to do that charity work are desperate for providers to help do that sponsorship. So it's such a great opportunity.
Dr. Karim: That's a beautiful way of putting it. That's, I think this is exactly how we see it. It's really complementing each other's effort. Everyone is doing his best as the community, as our, as different efforts, provided by different people, by different specialists, by different people in their own organizations. They all want to do their best, they all want to realize their goals and to make sure that they did everything the right way. But the overlapping of the efforts, in a very positive way, can only benefit the recipients of these services, you see. So I think this is how we see it. I'm dreaming one day that this book and this kind of oral health promotion and education, it could be used by every dental office. Right?
\n\nStuart: There's a couple of things that spring to mind. So we did a podcast not so long ago with a financial advisor called Bill Bloom. I'll link to it in the show notes. But he wrote a couple of books with us. One of them was called Retire as you Desire, which was a very short book relatively speaking, but it just hit on a couple of key points and talked about a framework that they then elaborated into other things. So now the whole onboarding process from this particular channel is around this retire as you desire framework. So you were talking about the educational games and the opportunities to talk to different groups. You can really see this whole world coming together where the how do I take care of my children's teeth? There's the book and the game and flashcards and pointers and just the whole world. Oh yeah.
\n\nDr. Karim: The ecosystem. Absolutely. We want the information provided to us in a very nice, pleasant, non-time-consuming way for everything in our life. I think this is where we are heading. It's a personal opinion, so why not deliver this information with a huge science background to people in the way that they are going to do it? Two people in the way that they like?
\n\nStuart: So yeah, you can imagine and again my mind starts running a little bit with these ideas you can imagine a website supporting the book and then for the eight or so chapters that are in here, I'll just quickly run through them for the people listening. So there's talking about babies' teeth, getting children to brush their teeth, milk teeth, and then going through to adolescents and sports injuries, helping teens with their progress. But you can imagine a website supporting each chapter because there's additional information and elaborations and maybe the walk-along videos and the video technique, called where you Like, the video that the describer type video is where you've got, like the animations that go along with the different bullet points.
\n\nDr. Karim: Right.
\n\nStuart: So helping people as they come into the office and they're talking about one particular problem, or they're talking about a friend or family member with one particular problem, Giving them a copy of the book highlighting that particular chapter, pointing them to the website where there's more resources, all of that leading back to okay, this is the general information, but at some point you need the specific information for your case. Being able to provide that to other providers, it really is the jumping off point for a much bigger, accessible education piece.
\n\nDr. Karim: Absolutely. And, Stuart, allow me to add something here. This is, you can think I like how you're running really towards the important points here. And you're talking about the digital world, of course, because this is where everything is heading, if we're not even there yet. But let me remind you that everything we interact with in the digital world until now, in most cases, of course, is just using our visual experience or you hear something, or but the classic ways of engaging as many senses as possible and use games to transfer the information and to show people how something happens on big teeth models.
\nLet me invite you to the website of NoDental knowdentalca and actually the social media accounts so you can, if you have access to a screen now, the at NoDental knowdental on Facebook, on Instagram, on LinkedIn. So this is actually the game, the company that does the gamification of every message there. So we have this Fantastic. We show children how the cavity actually happens with a chemical reaction on a teeth model, on teeth model. We show them how to brush their teeth in competing games. Of course, One of the options is going to be digital games and virtual reality we're looking into this now but old school games where you actually experience the fun of playing with something outdoors. This will always be the gold standard, so yeah.
Stuart: My wife is a kindergarten teacher at a Waldorf school. Oh there you go. Excuse me, they're very experiential and kind of all through. They've got I think they're three through six. They've got a mixed stage kindergarten. So all of their day to day stuff is very experiential and physically connecting things with any kind of learning opportunities rather than academic first approach. I can see I just Googled there at no dental, I just threw that into the search engine and there's a big picture of I think it's you with some huge teeth.
\n\nDr. Karim: Yes, there it is.
\n\nStuart: That example of being able to share because I think it is. Not only is the you touched upon the pressure and the uncertainty and the the concerned that parents have, but also there's the things that the kids are bringing to and they're being in an unusual environment and being disturbed about the process and potentially being in pain in the first place anyway. So being able to bridge that gap and make it just less of a daunting experience really does tie together so well.
\n\nDr. Karim: Yeah, of course, as much as possible. If you, if you move now we're talking about prevention and how to take care of your teeth, but then if you move further in the chapters of the book, we eventually reach the treatment. We eventually reach the types of treatment, not as an advice, of course, to what treatment to get this is, of course, is decided by the dentist but the parents. They want to know. Today we have, we want to know what's going on, how are we getting the treatment? Whenever we can do, of course, regular dentistry, we do it. The other options of sedation and sleep dentistry Dr Khaled Khaled is actually a dental anesthesiologist, so at South down dental we have the option of putting patients to sleep. We get all the dental work needed to be done while they're asleep. Dr Bob Vavaruzos he provides all the orthodontic and braces service services and treatments needed, along with the general dentistry that he provides. So we there is the treatment part that we are also explaining and trying to simplify as a general idea, of course, alongside how to prevent the disease, of course, which is what everyone wants.
\n\nStuart: And that, as the reader of the book, not only are you trying to find the immediate information, but to know what the path ahead looks like and what the options are. You start off the conversation by saying there's no shortage of information out there. You can Google as many things as you want and go as deep as you want, but what you're really doing is building the relationship with people so that you're their go to person throughout their whole journey, whether they're just in with what can I best do for my baby today, through to teen dentistry and then adult dentistry as well. So once you've built that relationship, but building it in this instance, through one particular channel. I know we've done other books for other people in the past talking about kind of pain free dentistry and sedation alternatives, because they've picked that particular channel as the starting point, the jump and off point, but picking this one. As you mentioned, you have other books as well, but picking this one as a jumping off point for the building a foundation for the rest of someone's life.
\n\nDr. Karim: No for sure it really establishes. One of the most amazing things that we see at the office is a patient, for example, who used to need sedation dentistry when he was younger. It was very difficult for a reason or another, and then he's growing and he's getting used to, or she's getting used to, having regular dental treatment whenever needed without sedation dentistry. So this is exactly when we feel that this is one of the purposes. It was Pain free experience, it was a trouble free experience whenever needed. That could just help the patient reach a point where he is okay to get regular dental service done. And you're talking about building the relationship. It's even more beautiful to see the cross generational relationship. This dental office was In its same location, working there for 30 years, 30 something years. I joined a few years ago, but they've been there for forever, so actually they treated patients and then now they're seeing their children and their grandchildren. There's nothing more fulfilling than seeing good patient relationship evolve and the seeing people's lives moving forward and you're adding something positive to it. You know right.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that relationship. You get to know them and it's seeing their kids come through of patients that you would have seen, like you personally, but the practice would have seen as small kids themselves. Yeah, we're in a world that you were saying earlier. How much you've moved around, obviously now in the US from the UK, but surprising how many people are in an area and don't leave the area, or when they find Someone that they know and trust, a willing to travel two or three hours just to keep that connection. So it really does establish the groundwork. The other thing that springs to mind as well, talking about that, really established footprints, the list of patients and people who never became patients. I guess that you must have access to To be able to share an email with those people and just say, hey, we've written this resource. It's really valuable. It takes a lot of pressure off new parents. If a family members just hasn't you born, your friend hasn't you born, just let us know and we'll get them a copy of this book. Such a great way of spreading the message. Three people who know, like and trust you already, and it's not like.
\n\nDr. Karim: You're not a great idea, of course.
\n\nStuart: And it's not like you say to them hey, we do a good job, you like us, so refer all your friends. You're starting by giving value. You're saying, hey, if you know people who are struggling and don't know what choices to make, then we've got this resource that can help them out and it's really leading with that, giving hands such a great opportunity to build on those relationships that are there already. Yeah, yeah, I'm conscious of your time. We've got a thing that I just want to say thanks again for dialing, and I know you're busy getting from one place to another, so just really appreciate the time. Is there anything, as we've jumped around a little bit here, is there anything that we've missed that you think it's useful for people to know about this book or about just the idea of writing a book in the first place?
\n\nDr. Karim: I think we covered most of the important points that you actually directed me to cover most of the important points. Thank you for that, and thank you for inviting me and for allowing me to use this platform to spread the information about what we're doing, our vision to the future. Everything I think is covered here. It's the passion of spreading information, the passion of spreading the value of what you're doing and what you wish To be more of out there in the world and just yeah, I know writing a book is one of the very first ways people did this and will always be the gold standard of doing this.
\nSo no, thank you so much. It was a wonderful conversation.
Stuart: My pleasure and that's really what we're passionate, as well as helping people kind of break down that barrier. The traditional publishing world is difficult and expensive and time consuming and it stops people from sharing a message in a format that people receive is very valuable and very, very accessible. So the more people we can help, the better. So I'm just thanks to you for coming on and share your story. Hopefully encourages a few other people to Take the plunge and know it's that they can kind of take from your passion and understand the importance of sharing the message. I'll make sure that we include all of the links to no dental and south down the practice, just so people can follow along with the journey, and we'll make sure we get you a copy of the podcast as well so you can feel free to use that in any way that you help. And, yeah, just really excited to check back in in a few months with you and see how things have gone and give everyone an update.
\nWonderful looking forward fantastic, okay, well, thanks everyone for listening. As always, we've got the video up on the website and all of the links to touch creams information will be there as well, so check out the show notes and we'll catch you all in the next one.
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Bill DeBoer, owner of DeBoer's Auto in New Jersey and author of Profitable Fleet Management, a book that helps small and medium size companies manage their fleet of vehicles to ensure they continue to serve the business needs and proactively stay in service. He recently finished his book and recorded a book launch with recent guest Rich Bontrager, and we caught up to see how he's been using his book.
\n\nBill has the value-driven approach we often talk about. Passionate about helping other business owners, he understood that his book could help his ideal client today and be a resource to organizations whose fleets are just starting. They may be too small to be clients now, but by providing value, he's building relationships with people who will become clients tomorrow as their fleets inevitably grow.
\n\nHe's also using their proprietary technology to grow their company into other states, and his book allows him to build a bigger footprint outside of New Jersey and find customers and partners ahead of any investment.
\n\nIt's a great conversation, and I really appreciate how Bill is looking to drive value in each element of his book funnel.
\n\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/129
\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here and today great interview with one of our authors who just recently finished the book. So I really wanted to get his insights into what it's been doing for his business and also because it's a little bit of an unusual business as well. I mean, as we think about examples of people writing books, bill's business isn't the one that springs to mind. So, bill DeBore, welcome to the show.
\n\nBill: Thank you, stuart, it's nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
\n\nStuart: No problem at all. So I start off by saying that your business isn't one that necessarily springs to mind when we're talking about examples of books. So do you want to give the audience a bit of a background on who you are? Let me get up an image of the book as well. So the book is Sure. Let me on the screen here. The book is Profitable Fleet Management. So what's your company and what do you guys do for people?
\n\nBill: Yeah, so we have a business DeBore Zotto in Hamburg, new Jersey. We've been in business for just over 40 years now and we take care of people's cars, trucks, vans and all that. So pretty much the book was spawned out of. A couple of years ago we were looking for ways to increase our business and we started knocking on doors of the small and medium-sized businesses out there that have fleets of that size and started seeing some real pain points inside of those businesses with regards to how hard it is for them to manage it, how much of a pain it is.
\nIt's like the unwanted stepchild inside of these businesses. So, after kicking that around and we're growing and we're adding capacity to our building, we're in the middle of a buildout. We're adding six more bays. The shop is going to be set up specifically for these types of fleet vehicles, the taller vans and stuff like that. Our existing shop is an older facility and the roof line is a little bit lower, so we're going to be set up way better to handle that and we thought it would be a great idea to write this book, launch it and then use it as a lead tool to help fill up the shop when we get it open.
Stuart: This idea that we talked to a lot of people about in terms of picking a single target market, and not that it's exclusive of everyone else. It's not that you have to turn away other business, but the idea of reaching out in a campaign sense and picking that target market. You were talking about other vehicles and other types of non-van fleet people that you can help. What made you pick that area as opposed to something else? Was it an area that you wanted to break into, or is it the most profitable area or the area you can help the most?
\n\nBill: Well, it's a couple things. So in our business I mean, those fleets are a good, steady supply of vehicles for us to work on. In our business everything comes down to car count how many cars we have to work on. And the thing about fleets that is attractive to us as a business is that we can deal with one or two people and collect 30 to 40 vehicles with only a couple contact points, where for us to do 40 vehicles, that's 40 different phone calls, 40 different people. We got to deal with a lot more work that goes into that. So the fleet business works well for that.
\nThe other thing that comes in handy too is typically the ebbs and flows with repairs seems to correlate with these other businesses. So when they are slow is when they have time to put their vehicles into the shop to get their maintenance done and their repairs done, and it's typically at the same time that we are getting slow seasonally. So they time together really well so that we can average out our workflow and keep a nice steady flow of work coming into the business with it.
Stuart: So such a perfect marriage. A lot of organizations that we talk about the coach inside the business is this idea of excess capacity. So if you're doing something but there is excess capacity, you've really got that. The engineers, the tech, so they're anyway, the equipment's there anyway. It really gives you a lot of leeway to do some quite innovative things in terms of reaching out to people and creating a win-win situation because you've got the capacity set there. I mean, it really does expire at the end of the day when the mechanic goes home. If he's been sat around doing nothing, then you can't get that time back Exactly.
\n\nBill: To be able to marry it.
\n\nStuart: It's that being in business for 40 years gives you a lot of insights into that ebb and flow and the seasonality of what you're doing and the lifecycle of the maintenance of different fleets. Is that a competitive advantage that you've got? Being able to proactively reach out to people and sow the seed of what might be about to happen, almost before it actually happens?
\n\nBill: Absolutely. That's what the book does. It's a real simple read. I made it so that it can help people at whatever level they are at in their business with these fleets.
\nTypically, what happens is it's your plumber, it's your electrician that turns business owner now. Then they get the one van, which is fine, they can manage it on their own. Then they start layering on more people, more vehicles. It grows to a point where they've got an office manager and now this gets dumped in the office manager's lap. They don't have any idea what they're doing, other than, hey, send them to the truck for an oil change and they think that they're taking care of it. It's really not nothing of the sort. They send it to a quick loop that has lower level technicians. Their skill levels are entry level, unlike ours, where they're master certified. They can spot things before they happen and we can get in front of things to keep them on the road.
\nAgain, as the business ebb and flows, when they're busy and they need those vehicles to go, they're ready. There's no critical breakdown during those time periods With the book. What we did was we took the approach where we can go in, drop the book off and, depending on whether they're fit for us or not. We can coach them into becoming a fit for us as well. If they're in there and maybe they can't quite afford the service level that we provide, it gives them a lot of tools to go and implement in their business that they can get their handle on the fleet expenses and start dialing them in and then growing to the size fleet that is a really good fit for us.
Stuart: It's such a great approach because not only most people I think about finding the customers who are ready to go. Now, so much of that advertising, burn and churn is to try and find those people who do something today. A lot of time you've probably heard me say before on podcasts or when we've spoken, my brother's a yacht broker. Well, they're the distributor for a specific brand, but in a previous life he was a yacht broker, walked in as a relatively junior broker to an office where I think the guy had passed away. I really should fact check this story. I can't remember whether he retired or passed away it changes the dynamic of the story a bit, but anyway he was no longer there. There was literally a draw label dead leads. One of the first things it filled in was went through that draw and reached out to the people and sales came from literally a draw that was labeled dead leads.
\nBeing back to your approach of the book, so many people are trying to find the people who are looking for fleet managers. Now, today They've got a problem they're trying to fix by starting that conversation and building that relationship earlier by adding value. It just makes such logical sense that as they grow to that level of needing it. They already have the relationship with you. You're their guy. Why would they even look anywhere else To be able to provide them that value in the book, to educate them make the most of where they are today? Was that in terms of when you think about what to write? Was that an obvious first choice for you, or did you go back and forth on which bits to include or which bits to where? Maybe too complicated?
Bill: Not really. It just all flowed together really nice once. I decided to go ahead and pursue the project, made the outline with the chapters and all flowed from that. My background is in.
\nI happen to be in the automotive business. It's a family business that I grew up in. Originally we were retailing cars. When I came into it I established the service department, but I went to college for business. I also went and got my automotive technology degree as well. While I was at college I learned all that.
\nBut business is a strong suit of mine. I built with the book. I wrote the business aspects into it. I'm speaking to the other business owner as a business owner and what I have used in my business that's worked for me that they can implement into their business. After one or two weeks we start off right with profit first accounting, which is a nice method to control cash flows inside of a small business. It helps them plan for the expenses with the repairs, the acquisition of new vehicles and that sort of stuff so that they're not scrambling for cash when they have situations arise. That's a lot of what the book is there for to try to help these guys, if they're not in that position, to grow into that position by teaching them this stuff as well.
Stuart: One of the book blueprint mindsets is this idea of value-driven content and it really sets the scene In the early days although we don't see it so much now, but in the early days of the book business there were people who were talking about oh, they wanted to give away all of their best stuff in the book and it's such an alien concept. It wasn't really coming from a marketing background. That was never really anything that we were, it was just a thought that hadn't popped into mind. I think the likelihood of being able to give away enough that you're actually giving value, but obviously saying to people oh, there's always more, there's more. That's out of the scope of this book. It's not that I'm holding things back, it's just that it's out of scope.
\nAnd then delivering as much value as possible within the pages creates that relationship and literally adds value and then builds towards a next step, rather than saying to someone well, there's five things I could tell you, but it's too complicated for you, so either come and pay me all, you're on your own. Do you get that feedback from people as they read it? I mean, I've read the book as well, and even not, as I have one card, not a fleet, but even there there's value that I get from it. Just thinking outside of this specific example, I imagine for people who are office managers, who have had a fleet dropped on them or the fleet's developed over time, they must really get a lot from it.
Bill: The thing, too, is I wrote the book. We live in our little corner of the world. It's not like I can service the entire country, but there's something in there for everybody and the problem that I see locally here is just across the entire nation. So leading up to this book, I've been producing content on a regular basis about fleet management, trying to get control on this stuff, and through our blogging and our YouTube stuff out there, I've already generated calls from around the country, people that have this unwanted stepchild dumped in their lap, calling me for advice. They want to pay me to be a consultant, which I don't really have the time or bandwidth for, but the pain is real out there and I wrote the book so they can be helped and try to get a handle on what they need to.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, as you say, the local being 50 mile, famous for being able to legitimately help people where you've got the bandwidth and infrastructure to help is one thing, but there is a good feeling about knowing that this is universally applicable and you're actually able to help people. And it almost sets the idea of kind of like digging the well before you need the water expansion later into another area. Potentially this kind of lays the groundwork for customer base in that area or bridging into other things. So no bandwidth at the moment for consulting or doing the one on one work. But you're not the first person that we've talked to, probably on a podcast, Actually. I'm thinking of a couple of people where years down the track, their businesses have pivoted into something that they weren't necessarily expecting. That's not going to be the case for everyone and even if the opportunity is there, it's often people don't want to take it up.
\n\nBill: That's the one action. The one thing that we're looking to see and get feedback from the book as it rolls out nationwide and if we get leads or people calling us up that aren't in our direct area that we can service, to obviously connect them with the book but also test that market out there to see we can go in and become a. We're exploring the idea of being a fractional fleet manager. So what that would look like is we have a tech stack that we can go into, say, a company that's in California or wherever around the country. We can deploy this tech stack that we use it currently locally with our existing fleets, go in there and we can manage from afar. While we may not be touching the cars and fixing them, we can do the actual fleet management piece of it make sure that they're staying on top of all the maintenance schedule on the vehicles for service and taking that burden off of whoever's managing it inside of the office.
\nBecause what happens like when we talk about the fleet business, you get small, medium-sized businesses and then there's the enterprise level, and when you get to the enterprise level, we service a lot of those fleets as well. But there's some major companies out there that manage these fleets for people. But small, medium-sized businesses don't have the bandwidth or the cash flow to afford those types of services. So with us being a fractional fleet manager, we would be able to come in. They can pay us for the little bit of time that they need for somebody to manage the fleet affordably, get it off of their plate until they either stay with us or they can grow up to the next level with their business.
Stuart: That's an interesting point as well, because that expansion and knowing where you sit in the overall eco structure really means that you can maximize the benefit for those people, knowing that some people will grow into it but also that some people will grow out of it. A lot of listeners are probably strategic coach members because we've got a big footprint with Coach. So their idea of, like the free zone, frontier and this who, not how mentality of creating something that's bigger than the sum of the parts, so you've been able to help an organization in the other side of the country that has great capability but maybe not the infrastructure or the technology to be able to come in and provide that for them. I mean it's such a win-win, not only for you to expand the footprint, for the customers to get a better service, but also for those shops to be able to make a more robust model, the people who, so the office managers or the fleet managers that are interacting.
\nWe talk about this idea of the book being the start, the conversation, towards that doing business. If it's a point that some people get tripped up on, they kind of know or see other people using a book as a lead generation tool. They kind of conceptualize it as a good idea. But sometimes people struggle with okay, well, how do I transition that into someone raising their hand to do business? I really like what you've got on the back cover of the book. Talk a little bit, if you can, about how you make that transition. So someone raises their hand and gets a copy of the book somehow. How does that conversation then go?
Bill: Yeah, so we got a couple different downloadable tools that I talk about inside of the book the cost per mile worksheet. We have a pre-drive checklist for drivers so that they're doing regular inspections, which is key to keeping these cars on the road. For these fleets, I mean. Typically the major breakdowns and the catastrophic breakdowns occur because they go extended time between intervals and they end up with low fluids, and the way to catch that stuff is to have a regular inspection process. So we have the inspection checklist that they can download and then, ultimately too, they can book a discovery call with me where I can kind of help them out with their fleet, talk to their pain points and send them in the right direction of alleviating that pain. Give them some Tylenol for it, right?
\n\nStuart: That took out building your success on the success of others, the fact that you've got the vehicle checklist that the local managers can give to the drivers. That is almost preventative to the I mean there's a case to say that's taken, read out of your table or whatever the analogy is but it's really adding value and building that relationship in a way that makes it easy for them to get on board with Such a fantastic idea of basing your success on their success. And again, I imagine that just builds the rapport even faster.
\n\nBill: Yeah, and these are simple tools. They're simple spreadsheets and stuff that they can download and start implementing and they're a business, like I said again, if they can't afford our services with our fractional fleet service, when we go in with the tech stack, that's already built into everything that we do. So we talk about this paper checklist that they can go through with the drivers. Our digital version of that is linked up with our tech stack and they can have. Every driver have their own, whether they use an iPad or a phone for the business they can go in and do the inspections right on that. Everything gets reported up. Any issues go up to us as the fleet manager and we can start looking at them and addressing them. Also takes care of a lot of safety issues, make sure that we stay in front of that stuff for the fleet and just the whole host of other things. But again, starting out and helping people where they're at, meeting them where they're at, helping them grow their businesses I mean that's really what I'm passionate about.
\nI really love small and medium businesses and talk about growing businesses.
Stuart: And that I think that's authenticity, if that's not an overused word these days, but that comes through in the book as well. I think you can read some things that clearly look like marketing pieces that are just given enough to get you to the next stage, and then other pieces like the book, where it's clearly you know the business, you know their pain points and you're really trying to deliver as much as possible. Talking to getting in front of the right people then. So none of the books created. The next stage obviously is getting in front of the people who can best be served by it. So what are you doing at the moment? I know it's somewhat early days, but what are you doing at the moment to get the visibility out there and to get it in front of the right groups of people?
\n\nBill: Well, we just started. We just we did a live book launch this week with Rich the Trigger, bond Trigger and his company Rock the Stage Media, I think it is. So he helped us out. We did a spotlight interview on me we're highlighted me a couple of weeks ago, a little 15 minute clip that got put together. Then we did the live book launch Tuesday evening of this past week and he brought on some special guests, actually some of our existing customers, and you know they all read the book. They gave their testimonials how it's helped them, how we helped them in their business. And you know we also took it.
\nI went to high school with a voice actor or actress and she laid down the audible version of this, which just got approved and uploaded the other night too. So yeah, so you know we've got freefleetbookcom where people can go on to lead generation. They can download the digital copy for free If they'd like to get a physical copy right now we have a limited supply of them that we're giving out if they wanna pay postage and then obviously they can buy it on Audible for the audio version or on Amazon for the regular hard copy as well. But I'm just trying to pump it out there. The other thing that we're looking at getting in front of is other podcasts for those industries that we serve and also getting with those trade publications to help them out by either giving them written content that they can supply in their trade publications to help out the fleet piece of their businesses so they can try to make them get in front of it.
Stuart: Have you seen the Success Magazine ad that Dean did a while ago for Email Mastery?
\n\nBill: Yeah, yeah, I did see a copy of that.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, did we talk about it? We did a strategy call a couple of weeks ago. Did I send that to you as part?
\n\nBill: of that. Yeah, you shared that to me. Yeah, perfect.
\n\nStuart: I'm going to take that now.
\n\nBill: I just saw it before.
\n\nStuart: I'll link it in the show notes for anyone who wants to check it out and hasn't seen it already. But this idea of providing content in a kind of advertorial type way, so providing because all the individual steps that you've got in the book and all of the other things that kind of are related to it, but not necessarily just in the book, that's definitely article length information that's super valuable and give people the bite-size pieces and then offer the free copy of the book as the next step. Hey, if you like this, grab a copy of this for more. It's such a perfectly dialed in way of amplifying the message. Are you guys present on LinkedIn in a meaningful way?
\n\nBill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we're on LinkedIn. Actually, when we did with Rich, we did it non-traditional way or I guess maybe a newer way. I felt like instead of registering for Zoom, a Zoom call, where he registered people and we invited guests and people and tried to fill the room, I decided to go another route where we just went live on all the multiple streams and got it out there. Not everybody can come and watch it at the time that it occurs, so I figured if we just went live and then all those rebroadcasts or once it was on their live, people could watch a rebroadcast as they will. So we went live on YouTube, linkedin, facebook and pumped it all out there.
\n\nStuart: We'll link the if we can grab a link to the. I always find it difficult navigating LinkedIn sometimes, which is why I'm not as active as I should be on there, because my frustration level gets too high. But we'll find the replay link for the LinkedIn version and stick that in the show notes as well here, Because I think not only is it interesting to see what you did in the kind of look behind the scenes way, but it's also interesting for people to see that kind of live element of the customers coming on and talking about it. And so you're presenting the various elements of the book, because the point of the podcast here is too full. Not only is it to kind of highlight what you've done with the book and what you do in the business, but also really, if people copy and cheat and take the shortcuts from everything that we've learned over the time, then it can only serve to do them better. I think I'm pretty safe to say that we haven't done another fleet management book. Sometimes with the financial advisors it's maybe a little bit more challenging because we've definitely done more than one retirement planning book. But yeah, if people can be inspired by different industries, that definitely helps everyone. It helps everyone out.
\n\nBill: I think to go back to your point too how a lot of people hold back so much information in a book. I didn't feel that in this at all, because I feel like the more that you're out the information, like you can go out and coach people and talk to people, the amount of information that they implement is so small compared to what you actually put out there. If you give them everything all in the book to it, they're still going to come to you for some more information. I think it's the best if you're fully transparent, get all the information out there and then see what happens from there.
\n\nStuart: You're right, because it's particularly. We were talking about chat GTP the other day and as that develops and gets even more robust Google's been around for 20-something years Chat GTP kind of takes it to the next level a little bit and just makes it more interactive, going one or two levels deep. It's not like the actual information isn't out there, but people's ability through either an understanding or even just a capacity to actually do it. I think that's really the biggest problem that 90% of people have got. It's not knowing what to do, it's just having the full picture or the capacity to do it. I agree, share is I mean, it's what we did in the Scorecard book went slightly overboard on the videos and things in that book, but sharing as much information as possible. It just really gets people to the point that they know and understand that you are the right person to help them and they've started to build that rapport anyway. So I'm more likely to select you as they realise that, hey, I'm not going to get to do this myself, I really need someone else just to do it.
\n\nBill: Yeah, so we talk about especially in our business. There's a huge side to just automotive repair. It's called do-it-yourself the auto parts store service customers that work on their cars at home. Then there's a do it for me market, which is what we're in. People bring the vehicles to us and I feel like the same thing is true with the business. In my years 25 plus years of being in this career path I found at times I didn't have the budget so I had to do it and follow the book and maybe spend a little bit of extra time. And then there's other times in my life that I've found where I can just hurry up and bypass and save a whole lot of time and jump to the front of the line by calling somebody. So again, I don't think holding back information ever really helps anybody.
\n\nStuart: No, because people can tell as well. You definitely get that feel for when someone's just wanting to move to the next conversation and get someone to sign on the line that started. Come up on time. Super appreciate the time you spent today. I think people are going to get a lot from this. I want to make sure that they can check out more of what you're doing. So there was freefleetbookcom.
\n\nBill: Yep. Freefleetbookcom is where you can get the book. Anybody feel free to connect with me professionally. I jumped in Bill DeBoer I think I have the only handle with that on there, so it's pretty easy to find or DeBoer's Auto is the business, so check us out.
\n\nStuart: See what we've got going on. And we'll make sure to put links to all of those in the show notes as well. So, as you're listening, just hop over to the show notes, which I think also appear in the show notes of the podcast player, so should all be clickable, just to get straight through Anything that we haven't touched on. That you wanted to like. If someone was asking you if they should write a book for their business, is there anything that kind of springs to mind that might, that they might not realize?
\n\nBill: No, I mean, I think that you know, depending on what you're in, I mean I think everybody's got a book in them and 90 Minutes obviously does a really nice job of packaging this all together. You know it just got on the call this afternoon with a marketing colleague that we haven't talked in a while and just catching up talking about the book, and you know, on the discussion, like he's probably got like 10 different book ideas that he could just, you know, just sitting out there and it never really dawned on him to you know, put it in this. And then you know a lot of how he generates his business, is going by to you know these industry trade shows and giving away these, you know the stupid trinkets and probably the other stuff that nobody ever wants right Worship drawers and magnets and pens, yeah. Right, and you know I told them. You know I mean how great would it be just to have a book and hand out a book to everybody, in what a Greek of a way versus all the pens and whatnot that they have.
\n\nStuart: So yeah, fantastic. Well, it's been a pleasure. Thanks again for your time. Thank you, I would say. I'll make sure that we've got showing the notes and links to everything that you're doing, so I highly recommend people check that out and we'll do another strategy call a little bit further down the track and we'll check back in and then we should do another podcast as well and keep people in the loop of the world domination that's starting not far from me here in Jersey.
\n\nBill: Yeah, Sounds good man.
\n\nStuart: Alrighty Thanks, Bill Thanks.
\n\nBill: Thanks for watching.
\n\nStuart: We will catch you in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Bill DeBoer, owner of DeBoer's Auto in New Jersey and author of _Profitable Fleet Management_, a book that helps small and medium size companies manage their fleet of vehicles to ensure they continue to serve the business needs and proactively stay in service. He recently finished his book and recorded a book launch with recent guest [Rich Bontrager](https://www.90minutebooks.com/podcast/124), and we caught up to see how he's been using his book.\r\n\r\nBill has the value-driven approach we often talk about. Passionate about helping other business owners, he understood that his book could help his ideal client today and be a resource to organizations whose fleets are just starting. They may be too small to be clients now, but by providing value, he's building relationships with people who will become clients tomorrow as their fleets inevitably grow.\r\n\r\nHe's also using their proprietary technology to grow their company into other states, and his book allows him to build a bigger footprint outside of New Jersey and find customers and partners ahead of any investment.\r\n\r\nIt's a great conversation, and I really appreciate how Bill is looking to drive value in each element of his book funnel.","date_published":"2023-02-26T08:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/731b03c6-0c45-4610-91cf-0dcc7dc44a16.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":20282767,"duration_in_seconds":1680}]},{"id":"3c41c0a6-e1e9-4990-8188-fb8ec77bee9c","title":"Ep128: Helping People Help Others with Geoff Hoatson","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/128","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're talking with Geoff Hoatson, elder law lawyer at Family First Firm in Altamonte Springs, Florida and author of Next Stop: Nursing Home, a book that helps people who are looking to protect their wealth, inheritance, and utilize Medicaid for nursing home and specialist support. \n\nGeoff's business is in an interesting position because a lot of the time, the people they're talking to and trying to engage the family members of an older relative who are in a difficult position and need that full-time care. So although their clients are ultimately the patient, the person needing care, the conversation starts with the family members.\n\nThis is a fascinating conversation about how they help by revealing options people aren't aware of, all while keeping a balanced approach to their client and the family member who may be asked to make decisions.\n\nI really enjoyed catching up with Geoff, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how a book is making a difference in helping people help their families preserve wealth.\n\n\nLINKS\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/128\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nAbout Family First Firm\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here. Today we've got a great interview with Jamie Smart. So Jamie's the author of three books, one with us and two traditional books. The first, clarity, is actually coming up for its 10 year anniversary, so a refreshed version, all updated, is just on the way out. \n\nWe had a chat with Jamie talking about what he's learned over the last 10 years in using the books in his business, how his business has developed since having the books and what's really come from it. And this idea of using your book as a greenhouse to nurture the relationships with people and how it's a great opportunity to build a rapport. And this idea of getting the clients to the point where they know like and trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you. So great episode. I love talking to Jamie. We've met in person a number of times back in the UK. So with that, let's get to the episode. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. Today we've got, I think, a returning guest. I think, jamie, you've been on this show before. You've definitely been on some of the other shows. \n\nI've been on shows, that's for sure, yeah definitely been on shows, so people will hopefully recognise the voice, if not the face, because now we've got glorious Technicolor video. So Rob is Rob. I just said Rob off camera. I got Rob in my head. Jamie's here because we're talking about a 10 year relaunch of one of his books and then there's a couple of other books he's gotten stable, so it's a great opportunity to touch base and see how he's been using the various books in the different funnels, what has come from them in something that's now 10 years down the track, which is kind of surprised both of us. So, jamie Smart, why don't you give everyone a quick Jamie Smart catch up if this is their first experience? \n\nGeoff: Got it so okay. So I'm Jamie and I'm a business owner, a coach, a trainer. I teach a lot of coaches, work with businesses, that sort of thing. My kind of niche, if you like, is mindset. So I talk about the principles behind clarity and subtractive psychology, and the basic idea is that you know how most people have a lot on their mind. I mean, you know how most people had a lot on their mind 10 years ago. \n\nStuart: Well, now, most people really have a lot on their mind. \n\nGeoff: Well, we teach people a simple understanding that takes things off your mind, so you have the confidence and presence and well-being to enjoy your life and do whatever you're here to do. So that's what we're up to, and my first book, clarity, came out 10 years ago. That became a bestseller, followed up by a book called Results, which became a Sunday Times bestseller. But in there I also created a book with Stuart and Dean called well, originally it was called your exponential practice scorecard, so it was aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers. I've changed the name of that about five times and so now it's called the Thriving Coaches Scorecard and we've got the Thriving Coaches Scorecard, the Thriving Coaches Facebook group, the Thriving Coaches podcast, and the idea is that all these things create what I call a greenhouse, which is an idea I got from, and a book is an example of a greenhouse. \n\nIt's an idea I got from a guy called Chris Tomasulo about a million years ago and he said look, if you want to grow a plant in the desert, you've got to put up a greenhouse and irrigate it. He said well, I heard him say this in like 2003 or 2004,. Right, so early days of the internet. He goes the internet is a desert. No one's ever going to find you there. He says if you want to cultivate relationships in that desert, you need to put up a greenhouse and you need to irrigate it, and that metaphor really struck me, and so I see all these things each book, each podcast, each Facebook group. It is a greenhouse for nurturing and cultivating relationships with people, some of whom are going to want to do business with you. \n\nNot all of them. Not everyone who reads this book or this book is going to want to do business with me, but some of them will. Some of them will read them and go. Oh my God, I never want to have to deal with this guy. \n\nStuart: At least it's all collecting yeah yeah, that's cool too. \n\nGeoff: So the idea, what's happened over the last 10 years is I've learned lots about all kinds of things, including marketing and how to use a book and that sort of thing, because, well, you'll know this, stuart, it's kind of funny. When Clarity first came out, I had this kind of idealized vision, which was basically step one the book hits the bookshops. Step two here come the clients, and while there was some of that, it doesn't work like that. It didn't work exactly like that. There were some people who just called. So this was before I started working with you guys. This is like 2013. \n\nThere were people who would call up, say, hey, I just read the book, I want to book on a program, or they go online or whatever. But it wasn't quite the deluge that I was hoping for, and so what I realized is, while the book is great, the book's a greenhouse, a great way of people building relationship. You also need ways to kind of stay in touch and serve them and take people on a journey which I learned from Dean, which is to basically educate and motivate. The book is a great way of educating and motivating people to the point. Can I tell you my way of understanding it? Yeah for sure. \n\nWell, my assumption is that there's two things people absolutely have to have before they're going to work with you. This is true as a coach, but it's a change worker, and a trainer, but it's probably true of a pretty much anything. The first thing is they got to have a relationship with you. They got to know you and like you and trust you, and that takes a certain amount of time to build. Now, if someone's going to do eye surgery on you or open heart surgery on you, you probably need quite a bit more knowing and liking and trusting than if they're going to make a sandwich for you, but so it's going to be relevant by degree, not by type. \n\nStuart: By degree it varies. Yeah, yeah. \n\nGeoff: So, number one, they've got to know you and like you and trust you, and that's going to take some time to build that relationship. But the other thing is they've got to have some problem or want or need or desire that they want to solve and they want your help with. And the thing is an insight for me, which I may have got from you guys or I may have innovated on my own was I realized that at the time someone goes out to solve a problem, almost by definition, they don't know enough about the problem space to come up with a good solution and they don't know enough about the problem space to decide whether you're a good person I help them with it or not. So they need that time of getting to know you, getting to know what matters to them. They need time to get present to what they really need. I found that a book is a great way of getting someone to start that journey and then to take them up. \n\nStuart: Educate and keep the conversation going. Yeah, exactly the idea that for most of us in the businesses that we're in so professional services business it's not like we're plumbers, where in a plumbing world you're going to have two types of clients those who immediately need something because water is pouring out of the ceiling and those who have got a job somewhere further down the track. So for us, as professional services people, we're mainly in that second group. There's not many of our clients who absolutely categorically need to do this very second. So that, by very definition of the work that we do, means that it's a longer conversion period, it's more relationships-based, because they haven't got that driving need to get it sorted out immediately. \n\nIt's when it tips that threshold of now's the time, now's my time, now's the time to do it for me. Yes, the people I'm surrounded by, the people I'm invested in, are the ones to do it with and there's a clear and obvious, easy path to move it forward. It's not like it's. Yes, I know that these, yes, I know now's the time for me. Yes, I know that these people are way to do it. But it's difficult and convoluted and cumbersome to get going If we can ease that path by making offers regularly so that when today's the day for them, they can just raise their hand and get started. It's such a difference maker from either building it and hoping they'll come or making people jump through hoops in order to evidence that they're the right clients for you, because you're trying to sift them and select them out or filter them out before they even come through. \n\nSo that kind of conversation starting book leading to a conversational conversion framework. \n\nYou're right, there's going to be some people who are just always going to be consumers in the world, but by putting out the same information to all of those people, the ones who are clients are going to be compelled to take the step from that greenhouse, as you describe it. I think it's such a great analogy as well because it's very kind of visual, kind of looking out the window. Here We've got a greenhouse just down in the garden which in January is covered in ice, but in the summer it's a greenhouse. But this idea of nurturing things and nurturing different things, so one greenhouse here, another greenhouse here and another one there, all nurturing different conversations I think that's an easy way for people to understand what it is you're talking about in terms of having these different approaches and the different books help in those, and the different presences, like the podcast and all these ways you've gotten engaging with people, all leading back to the same framework and that framework gives people an easy path to kind of continue that journey. \n\nGeoff: Yeah, well, and even something like an email list looks to me like, or a Twitter feed or something like. That is a greenhouse. There's this you heard of sub-stack, right, there's this couple of guys who write an article a paid article that comes out a couple of times a week on sub-stack and their greenhouse is Twitter. So they're tweeting I don't know a dozen times a day or something and sharing occasional long tweet threads and that sort of thing and giving free previews of the article. But then you go over there and it's really high quality stuff. After a little while of reading their tweets and reading their preview posts, you're like man, this guy knows what he's talking about. I'm in right, or I'm not interested in what this guy's talking about. I'm going to mute them. \n\nWell, yeah, the thing that strikes me I don't know if this is certainly not unique to my business, but certainly any business where the person's going to be working closely with you my rule of thumb is that before someone's going to sign up to work closely with you, they're probably going to need to spend somewhere between four and eight hours with you, whether that's listening to stuff or reading stuff, or watching videos or reading articles or reading books and a book is a great depending on the length of the book. A great is a great way of getting a chunk of that. If it's a book that they're going to refer to again and again, it's a great. So even if it's a small book, but it's one that they'll keep referring to and dipping into and that sort of thing, it's a great way of building that relationship. \n\nStuart: It ties into what you were saying about the problem set. Oftentimes they don't understand the problem set A podcast I'm not sure how this is going to fall into the release schedule, so I think it was maybe three weeks ago, as people are listening to this, when it releases. Three weeks ago we recorded a show with Betsy, just touching on the beginning of the year. What suggestions would we make? And one of the key things is just this idea of content in 2023 really being a watershed moment. So it's been a game changer for the last couple of years, but really, I think 2023, with the advent of chat, gdp and the ability to more quickly create a baseline of content, everyone else is going to start jumping on that bandwagon. So if you don't have anything, you're going to get left behind. If you're just doing what everyone else is doing, like the bare minimum AI version, okay, you're going to keep up, but the opportunity is really to add something new. \n\nSo we were talking about a similar thing in people not understanding the problem set and asking questions that maybe aren't the most relevant questions. So we came up with a quick model that, even if you don't know what to write about, but you think a book is a good idea, then an easy way of creating something is what we've started referring to as the five by five model. So five questions that customers ask and there's easy ways of getting that information. Five questions or five things that they should be asking. So this is you sharing your inside information, and then five action steps, five things that they can take, and then the other two fives to round it out, and all beyond the board. \n\nBut those, just as you were saying that, them not understanding their problem set, so needing to spend some additional time with you in order to understand exactly where they are and evidence to themselves that you're the right person to help them solve the problem. Breaking those things down I mean, the idea of the five by five book is to quickly and easily create something that's kind of in a subject, but thinking about developing those additional hours. So that book would take I'm not the fastest reader would take an hour to read, okay, so what we're going to do for those other seven hours. Well, each of those 10 elements that we've just identified, there's an hours worth of podcast in each of those elements to drive a little bit deeper. So the ability now to nurture all of those things in the greenhouse from a couple of seed plants but then propagate some other things kind of killing this metaphor a little bit. \n\nBut maybe it's a death's jerk, go for it. I know that's it. It's a good metaphor. Let's hammer the heck out of it. But it's such an easy thing to do because, like you said, clarity, the whole purpose of that. There's so much going on compared with I was talking to someone again a storytime. I was talking to someone a couple of weeks ago might even have been before Christmas. So I'm 47 now. \n\nMy first job out of college was in 95. And it really was on 96. But it really wasn't. I can remember being at my first job when we were given email addresses. So I was working before we had email addresses. I think I still had a personal email address because Geeky techie did that personally. But trying to think back to a time when you worked in a job there wasn't constantly interrupted by email, it's almost thinking what were we doing? But clarity, so to take away some of the noise and be able to focus on certain things, this whole framework that we're talking about, of generating this eight hours worth of stuff, of having these opportunities for people to join the funnel at the top, staying in touch with them later, it can seem overwhelming. So to be able to break that down into something that's easy and manageable and unsubject, that's, scope constrained but valuable. I think all of that adds into the clarity of the marketing piece of thinking about this as an approach. \n\nGeoff: I couldn't agree more. The thing that I found like for me, as you'll probably remember, when I did the exponential practice scorecard book, that was at the beginning of sort of experimenting with this stuff and building it out and that sort of thing, and it really helped me to just nail down the book, so that I because then I had to to me in a way and this is maybe a weird way of putting it, but once the book was done, there was a pretty much kind of fix like it was almost like the keystone of everything else that go up. It's kind of funny actually that this might be interesting. So how it strikes me, stuart, is that when I wrote clarity right, so clarity came out in 2013. \n\nI started writing it in 2011 as part of a kind of promotional exercise. I said to my audience so I got a bunch of people on my email list I said I'm going to write a book, I'll send you a chapter a week. Here it goes. So I wrote that and then over time, you know, ended up getting into bookstores in 2013. \n\nBut what I didn't realize was that this book was like a seed that was getting planted in the ground and what grew out of it is the whole business that I have today. So I've got the clarity certification training, the clarity events, training that all the my girlfriend and I are kicking off a program this weekend called the Clarity Professional Program. So that kind of that book was a keystone for the whole business. The what is now the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book is a keystone for that particular aspect of our business teaching coaches how to build a thriving practice. And the thing that suddenly struck me the new edition of Clarity is coming out literally end of this month as we record, so end of January is the 10th anniversary edition. And what suddenly struck me earlier last year was that that's a new seed that I'm planting in the ground and something new is going to grow from that. And some of it's going to be the same stuff I've already got, just, you know, re-energized by the new book and all that sort of thing. But some of it's going to be new stuff because, of course, I'm in a different place and it's a different book and the audience is in a different place. So it's really cool. But here's the other thing related to that might be interesting from what can you do with a book? So after a few years, what's? \n\nA lot of people have read your book, a lot of people who are connected to you, so I don't know. A bunch of people in the world have read my books, but only a relatively small number of those are within my close greenhouse, like they're seeing my Facebook messages, they're reading my emails, that sort of thing. A bunch of people read the book. It's on their bookshelf. They never heard from me again, that kind of thing. \n\nBut there are a bunch of people who are kind of in my world, so to speak, and those are the people who are also my best clients, the most likely people to do business with me again when they need help with something and that sort of thing. So those are the people who we've cultivated relationship with over the years. So we're getting ready for the new edition to launch and my publishers emailed me last week. They said oh, jamie, I'm sure you haven't forgotten this, but you need to do pre-orders on Amazon now. Basically, you need a bunch of people to go in pre-order from Amazon to get the book. I was like I had forgotten, so I'm like oh, what am. \n\nI going to do so. I go onto Facebook and I say hey guys, 10th anniversary edition of Clarity is coming out. I need your help. We've got to do pre-orders, and here's why. But here's the thing I'm not trying to get a best seller here. I just want people who are going to read the book, because I know if you read the book, it's going to make a difference to you. So if you really want to read the book, you can be one of the first people to get a copy of it. Just go to Amazon and place your pre-order and it'll be the first ones that get mailed out on 20th anniversary. \n\nWell, hundreds of people. It's like send one to me, send one to me. Send one because they want to be part of it. Because they're not? Yes, I'd like to think they're doing it because it's going to be such a great group book. But here's the thing that people may miss. A big part of why they want to do it is they want to help you out, especially when you're talking about content. If people are connected with a content creator and enjoying their content and like what they're saying, like where they're coming from, like their perspective on the world, they want you to do well Because, for a bunch of reasons A, they're nice, they care about you, it endorses the fact that they're buying into your view of the world as well, so it's all good. So to me, the book is this keystone that allows all those relationships to grow from it. So it's really cool. \n\nStuart: It's an interesting asset and I say to people a lot that 90-minute books is a marketing company. It just happens that books is the most effective way of achieving what we're trying to achieve. So it's unclear how long this psychological element will continue, but there's definitely a disproportionate psychological advantage of having a book. I just recorded a podcast yesterday with Rob Legenhausen, who's a financial planner like a wealth management firm. So they've written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, because a lot of their work is specifically around dividends rather than portfolio work or ETFs, mutual funds so that's their perspective. So he's had a book for a couple of months now. \n\nHe was saying the majority of his clients are slightly older than us and those people are very keyed into. Well, he was saying I don't know whether it's just because those people are slightly older and they come from an old publishing mentality. So if he was talking with 18 year olds it might not be the same. But just physically, having the book is a game changer. It stops people in their tracks, there's an authority around it and it builds that community much more than a newsletter does or an email does, even though the content is still effectively the same thing. It's worked on a page, but the psychology around it is still different. \n\nGeoff: It really is, I think. Well, it may be different to 18 year olds and things. The things that strikes me, stuart, is that books are lindy, like books have been around for I don't know when was the printing press the 1600s, the 1500s? So books have been around about 500 years. Iphones have been around about 14 years. So books are way more lindy than iPhones. So books are way more lindy than Kindles. Now, kindles is a really useful way to consume information, but there's a way in which books are kind of magical objects, and I don't mean that in a woo woo way. I mean it's just like a deck of cards or I don't know. Ok, I've got books and decks of cards. They have a certain totemic quality to them Basically. \n\nEven the word author is like the root of the word authority. So there's, they imbue a certain amount of authority and credibility. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, we were talking on. I can't. This year has been a strange year in the sense that it's there's been so many people have reached out so I've for years I've offered like strategy calls out there Just say hey, because I love talking about this type of thing, as you can tell from the podcast. So I pretty much always offered strategy calls but not that many people have picked up on them, so I can't actually tell. At the end of last year people might have noticed, but at the end of last year I made a commitment to be more front of camera facing, like broadcasting more of our stuff. But for 10 years we've kind of run it in the background but not really overly publicized it or talked about it that much, because it doesn't come naturally to me. I don't. If I'm thinking about doing something, I'm thinking about fixing the problem or doing something behind the scenes, not publishing something out front. So anyway, towards the end of the year I made a commitment to change that a little bit. So it might be partly that might be other factors. \n\nBut talking on strategy calls about this idea of of authoring, the idea not writing a book. So writing a book is a technical element which is a headache and pain in the neck, and that's why 90 minute books exist, because we tried to say the writing element away from it, because that's not the important piece. The important piece is being the author of an idea, and you can be the author of an idea on Twitter or in a book or on a video, but it's the shaming ideas which is the main thing. The functionality or the process of doing the book is almost secondary. Yes, end up with a product, but again that idea out there. It's a big difference. \n\nGeoff: I can tell you a real, I can give you a real time example that has happened on this call. When you said, oh yeah, my last guest was Rob, who's written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, I mean immediately went I get it. I need to speak to Rob, right Done, like just you telling me the title of his book. Now here's the thing, but here's the thing that people made. Here's the thing that looks so amazing about that to me. \n\nRob didn't come to you and say I want to write a book called the. I mean, he may have, but my assertion is, if Rob's like almost every author, he came to you and said I want to write a book called those 17 ways to do X, y and Z. And you guys were like you know what, rob? I think there may be an even better title out there. Let's see if we can find it. And what he's got with the Dividend Lifestyle is a title that for the right people and I'm one of them they're like I get it. I need to have a conversation with that man. Done Right, yeah, like that's powerful. Now, my guess is that I did that. Behind it will have existed that phrase the Dividend Lifestyle may well not have existed if it wasn't for Rob going through the process Right. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's so funny. I mean the one of the reasons we? Well, there's two reasons for switching the setup of this show to be more focused on individuals and their books, and whether they've written them with us or not, it doesn't matter, it's just the idea of getting the book out there, more focused in the conversation, starting books rather than the traditional books, because that's really what we're encouraging people to do. But still, users or not doesn't matter, just get the damn thing out there. But one of the reasons for one of the other reasons for switching is because we spent 100 episodes kind of retelling the same story, kind of hammering home the same points, and after 100 episodes you kind of think I've been here before, but once transpired in the last, I think we're. Maybe this is the eighth or ninth one of this type that we've done, but still the same message comes through. But it's so much more contextual or real, having a conversation about it rather than just trying to educate about it. Because the ideas that we've got in the book blueprint, scorecard, the framework book, the eight mindsets that talk about the choosing a single target market, a title that resonates and amplifying sub-adding, minimum, viable commitment calls to action, to make it easy to take the next steps. And then, looking at the internal parts, the purposeful outline, so it guides people. Something where value-driven content, so you're giving people value in the content, you're not trying to bait and switch them into a meeting. \n\nThe beneficial constraints, which is one that no one thinks about. What without constraints? Because we're all business owners listening to this, no one. We've set our lives up specifically that we haven't got people telling us what to do. But the downside to that is three years later, five years later, we still haven't done the thing. So the idea of beneficial constraints. And then, beyond the book, how are we going to actually use it? To put it in a greenhouse, to amplify it, and not just build it? And they will come so to be able to have these real-life examples and not just teach. I mean, hopefully people are getting much more value than just listening to me, benny Betze, hear every week about why you should do it. I'm sure this tangent was going somewhere, but I've lost the thought. \n\nGeoff: Well, I tell you what I get there's a bunch of things I get from it, which is that, among other things, obviously this podcast is also a greenhouse. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with you. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with your guests, so there's a win-win there. But here's the other thing that strikes me. Stuart, like I think, you and I first met on the first breakthrough blueprint that Dean did in London that I came on, which must be, I'm going to say, like 10 years ago nearly nine years ago, something like that. \n\nStuart: Time goes fast. \n\nGeoff: Well, so I've done a certain amount of business with you guys, right, but not like millions of dollars. I've been spent millions of dollars with you, but we got a great relationship and like I. So this is an offer, also an opportunity to continue developing that relationship. Like you told me, oh yeah, we're hoping to do a breakthrough blueprint in London. So I'm like man, yeah, it's about time I'd like to go on that again. You know all that sort of stuff, right, so it's all part of it. It's an opportunity for people to. I once heard Alex Mandozian put it brilliantly. He said he wants people to turn up the volume or change the channel. So it's like so it's not about making something that everyone's going to like, it's that you're creating something that people are going to learn from and build that relationship, and yeah. \n\nStuart: I just think it's great One of the interesting things and want to be respectful of your time because I can talk for far too long, unlike me, right. Like I know this could be a long episode for people listening. Just get some. We're both drinking, so get some coffee and buckle in. One of the things, though that's interesting, you were talking about the framework and turn up the volume or change the channel. That's such a clear message that I think the majority of people can take. \n\nSo the conversations that we have with people, two things happen all the time. One I first thought about this years ago and we've had a conversation with you years ago and still haven't done it. So that's the first thing, the kind of get off the fence and just do it, don't overthink it, it could be done by now. And the second one is this idea of a framework. So a lot of people will come thinking about the book as a broad thing. They're scared about choosing the single target market because most businesses can do five things at least and they don't want to double down. And that makes it difficult for people to turn up the volume because they're never sure about what they're going to get. It's kind of like TV channels or podcasts. You pretty much can understand this podcast is never going to talk about relationships or technology, because we're talking about books as a marketing tool. So there's a clarity around that, the framework. So again, the conversation with Rob from yesterday is clear my head because it was just today. But the dividend lifestyle I was asking him what they do as an onboarding process for clients and how can they bridge what they're already doing into a framework that uses the dividend lifestyle names. So, just like you were talking about in the clarity framework, you've got a whole world surrounding this. Now, the opportunity to name it and claim it around a framework just gives people commonality of language and I think that helps build rapport and helps build the relationship because you're all you're talking about a known set of language. \n\nBack in my corporate IT days there's a whole load of acronyms and terms and frameworks and models that people use in the business and it's almost a little bit exclusionary. We talked about this with the financial advisors and the lawyer type clients that we have. There's a risk of the language being exclusionary if it's talked about in a certain way, but there's the opportunity for a framework to be inclusionary. That's even a word. I've been in America too long and making up words. Inclusive, that's the obvious word and there's the opportunity for the framework to be inclusive because you can build a structure around things. So you were talking about having worked in our world, in Deans world, for coming up on 10 years now. The B3B looping framework is a language that we can use to bring it all together. So that's really an interesting insight from some of the conversations in the last few days of building that rapport and kind of feeding the plants in the greenhouse. \n\nGeoff: Well, the thing I appreciate about the framework you guys use in Breakthrough Blueprint and I think this is the thing that really strikes me is it's a framework that, as soon as I learned it as soon as it took a little while, because it's like seeing something going on, it's like seeing something that's already there, but that's the thing I loved about it it got me closer to the reality of what's already going on. \n\nAnd the thing I love about that framework is that it simplifies things by getting you closer to reality. So it's not an abstract concept or idea. It's not even a prescriptive framework. It's a descriptive framework. It's describing something that's already true, that's already at play in every business, and that's what made it so powerful. It's what I've done with the book Clarity as well. I've tried to make it purely descriptive, so it gets you closer to something that's already going on for you in your business, in your relationships, in your mind, because if you can make a framework that works like that, it's going to unleash so much power for people, and I think that's what you guys have done with Breakthrough Blueprint or Breakthrough. \n\nStuart: BNN. Yeah, and the same with the book scorecards and the same with all of the ones where we have a Well, I could hear it in the book scorecard. \n\nGeoff: I could hear some of the. I was sensing it already. Sorry to interrupt. \n\nStuart: No, well, just as you were saying, trying to keep it so that it's easy to understand and universally applicable, and it just changes by a degree. So just jumping back to the we're kind of wrapping up now. Jumping back to the three books that you've got. So Clarity's, on its 10th anniversary revision Results, is there, and the Thrive Framework one. Those three are they part of? What's the best way of saying this? They're obviously all part of the same thing, because they're all part of your world and how you help people, but do they the way that you use them? I'm just trying to bridge this for other people who are listening, who don't have any books yet and can might feel overwhelmed by the idea of having one. That alone. Three Do you use them in quite different ways? Are they addressing different markets or do they build on each other? Good question, they're thematically very similar. \n\nGeoff: Okay, so in reverse order, the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book, aka the Exponential Practice Scorecard, aka the profitable Coaches Scorecard, that specifically aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers, people who are looking to build a thriving business doing the work that they're passionate about in terms of helping other people out. So coaches, therapists, change workers, that sort of thing. Now there's a special sweet spot, which is it's leveraging all of the stuff from this book and this book for a very specific outcome. So in every single one of those steps it turns out that the main thing that for that audience specifically, who traditionally hate selling, hate marketing, anything like that, it's showing how understanding the principles behind clarity can turn selling from being a icky, manipulative that sort of thing to actually being heartfelt, connective relationship, enhancing all that sort of stuff. So it's leveraging the stuff from these books in a specific application. You could say. So the application is building a thriving coaching business as an application of the principles in these books. \n\nThe book clarity, which is the first one, is the most general of all the books, so it's for any one. So we've had everyone from business owners to charity leaders, to prison inmates, to people in recovery centers, to army veterans. I did a talk on this stuff at the NATO Defense College in Rome last summer. We've had people from all walks of life reading clarity, writing to us about. It sold about 70,000 copies so far, so it's our most general book. And then results is a. All the books are what I term as business-friendly personal development. Results is a more business. Your mom could read clarity and go. That was lovely. Results is a more business-focused out coding of the principles behind clarity. \n\nSo it's working on the same kind of More, kind of actionable. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nGeoff: So I think of it as being three elements. There's what I call grounding, which is kind of the mindset piece. There's impact, which is the difference you make to people, and then there's leverage, which is how you get paid for it, so it's who you're being, what you're doing and how you're making the cash register ring. So results is divided into those three sections, and so is the thriving coaches scorecard book, because it's a more business-friendly coding, whereas clarity isn't. Clarity is all about you and your mind and your relationships and stuff. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting the different perspectives and the different use cases for it. So, going into clarity again, we're a nine-minute book audience, so most of the people listening are thinking about it more specifically in terms of that single target market and the marketing piece. So clarity is coming from that broader perspective. It's almost like Very general. \n\nYeah, yeah. Sometimes we refer to them as manifesto books, although again, we usually talk about smaller books, but introducing that topic, but the way that they build together, I think, whether you're, as you're listening to this, whether or watching this, as you're thinking about the book to go out, there is definitely the fixing and solving a problem which is very specific. Here's what you should know, almost like the how-to type book, this idea of a manifesto book as well. Introducing an idea obviously you don't need to. It doesn't have to be as big or as broad as clarity. That's a substantial, what we would call a traditional book. \n\nBut the idea of introducing that idea, even if it's just positioning your way of thinking out in the world and kind of planting a flag and, just as you said, you don't know what's then going to grow from it, even if you don't have a very clear strategy for the marketing. Very specifically, from the book to an auto responder, to a flagship broadcast, to an offer, even if that's not in place. Again, going back to that idea that 2023 is really going to be a watershed moment for content, naming and claiming that and getting it, planting a flag out there, and then who knows what will come from it. If nothing else, I think that's worthwhile for people who are listening to this and on the fence. \n\nGeoff: I think that makes a lot of sense and you guys do that right. You'll help people write a manifesto book. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense because, as much as anything, one of the things that clarity has done for my business is it's one of the biggest jobs it's done is as a positioning tool. It's positioned, it's basically said this is what the understanding is, this is what it is, this is what it is and here's who it's for, here's who it can help. All that sort of stuff and a lot of this will resonate with you. \n\nI'm sure, stuart, a lot of people when I meet them, they go oh I wanted to work with you, that sort of thing. I bought your book. I didn't actually read it. They're still working with me because they bought the book, because that was the first step, and then they listened to a podcast and that sort of thing and then, before they know it, we're working together because they've had enough input from whatever sources were right for them to do it, but it was the book that got them started on the path. \n\nStuart: It's the element, it's one of the elements of that know I can trust. So whether or not they read it, I posted something yesterday. I tweeted out a little essay thing that I wrote saying no one reads anymore. You should write a book, and it just talks about readership rates and how relatively low they are, even for fiction, where the job of work is literally to read. So why would anyone read your book? But the point is that it exists, that you've got it, that there's the opportunity to start conversations. So such a great point. Where can people find out more and make sure that we give people access? Because I've read Clarity and it's the original version, so it's definitely really helps that cut through the noise. So again that if none of the others way worth that way with the time in reading, so where can people go to get copies of all of them? \n\nGeoff: So all the books are on Amazon wherever you are. It just, funnily enough, it just hit number one in business development and entrepreneurship in the UK before it's even been released, so that's our fastest number one ever. The Thriving Coach's scorecard is free on our website, so if you go to jamesmartcom, you can download it for free there Though I'm going to be talking to you, Stuart, about getting it paid for on Amazon, so I don't know if I'll keep the free version there. But also we released it on the podcast and stuff like that, the audio version, just because it's a great way of people consuming the information. And then Results Clarity the little book of Results, the little book of Clarity. You can find out about them at Amazon or wherever you get books, and the jamesmartcom has everything. And then I mean all the usual social places at jamesmartcom, so I'm on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and all that stuff. \n\nStuart: Well, I'll make sure to put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, just hit on the most podcast players, play the show notes. Or, if you're following the email, just check out the website. I'll link to the US stores just because it's easy to go from here, but I think Amazon will automatically redirect if you're in a different region, so that'll be the easiest way. And definitely check out jamesmartcom for all things jamesmart. \n\nGeoff: Thanks, man, great to see you. \n\nStuart: Great to see you too. It's time to come fast. Thanks again for your time, and then we'll check in less than 10 years in the future. \n\nGeoff: Looking forward to it. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Geoff Hoatson, elder law lawyer at Family First Firm in Altamonte Springs, Florida and author of Next Stop: Nursing Home, a book that helps people who are looking to protect their wealth, inheritance, and utilize Medicaid for nursing home and specialist support.
\n\nGeoff's business is in an interesting position because a lot of the time, the people they're talking to and trying to engage the family members of an older relative who are in a difficult position and need that full-time care. So although their clients are ultimately the patient, the person needing care, the conversation starts with the family members.
\n\nThis is a fascinating conversation about how they help by revealing options people aren't aware of, all while keeping a balanced approach to their client and the family member who may be asked to make decisions.
\n\nI really enjoyed catching up with Geoff, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how a book is making a difference in helping people help their families preserve wealth.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nWe had a chat with Jamie talking about what he's learned over the last 10 years in using the books in his business, how his business has developed since having the books and what's really come from it. And this idea of using your book as a greenhouse to nurture the relationships with people and how it's a great opportunity to build a rapport. And this idea of getting the clients to the point where they know like and trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you. So great episode. I love talking to Jamie. We've met in person a number of times back in the UK. So with that, let's get to the episode. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. Today we've got, I think, a returning guest. I think, jamie, you've been on this show before. You've definitely been on some of the other shows.
\n\nI've been on shows, that's for sure, yeah definitely been on shows, so people will hopefully recognise the voice, if not the face, because now we've got glorious Technicolor video. So Rob is Rob. I just said Rob off camera. I got Rob in my head. Jamie's here because we're talking about a 10 year relaunch of one of his books and then there's a couple of other books he's gotten stable, so it's a great opportunity to touch base and see how he's been using the various books in the different funnels, what has come from them in something that's now 10 years down the track, which is kind of surprised both of us. So, jamie Smart, why don't you give everyone a quick Jamie Smart catch up if this is their first experience?
\n\nGeoff: Got it so okay. So I'm Jamie and I'm a business owner, a coach, a trainer. I teach a lot of coaches, work with businesses, that sort of thing. My kind of niche, if you like, is mindset. So I talk about the principles behind clarity and subtractive psychology, and the basic idea is that you know how most people have a lot on their mind. I mean, you know how most people had a lot on their mind 10 years ago.
\n\nStuart: Well, now, most people really have a lot on their mind.
\n\nGeoff: Well, we teach people a simple understanding that takes things off your mind, so you have the confidence and presence and well-being to enjoy your life and do whatever you're here to do. So that's what we're up to, and my first book, clarity, came out 10 years ago. That became a bestseller, followed up by a book called Results, which became a Sunday Times bestseller. But in there I also created a book with Stuart and Dean called well, originally it was called your exponential practice scorecard, so it was aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers. I've changed the name of that about five times and so now it's called the Thriving Coaches Scorecard and we've got the Thriving Coaches Scorecard, the Thriving Coaches Facebook group, the Thriving Coaches podcast, and the idea is that all these things create what I call a greenhouse, which is an idea I got from, and a book is an example of a greenhouse.
\n\nIt's an idea I got from a guy called Chris Tomasulo about a million years ago and he said look, if you want to grow a plant in the desert, you've got to put up a greenhouse and irrigate it. He said well, I heard him say this in like 2003 or 2004,. Right, so early days of the internet. He goes the internet is a desert. No one's ever going to find you there. He says if you want to cultivate relationships in that desert, you need to put up a greenhouse and you need to irrigate it, and that metaphor really struck me, and so I see all these things each book, each podcast, each Facebook group. It is a greenhouse for nurturing and cultivating relationships with people, some of whom are going to want to do business with you.
\n\nNot all of them. Not everyone who reads this book or this book is going to want to do business with me, but some of them will. Some of them will read them and go. Oh my God, I never want to have to deal with this guy.
\n\nStuart: At least it's all collecting yeah yeah, that's cool too.
\n\nGeoff: So the idea, what's happened over the last 10 years is I've learned lots about all kinds of things, including marketing and how to use a book and that sort of thing, because, well, you'll know this, stuart, it's kind of funny. When Clarity first came out, I had this kind of idealized vision, which was basically step one the book hits the bookshops. Step two here come the clients, and while there was some of that, it doesn't work like that. It didn't work exactly like that. There were some people who just called. So this was before I started working with you guys. This is like 2013.
\n\nThere were people who would call up, say, hey, I just read the book, I want to book on a program, or they go online or whatever. But it wasn't quite the deluge that I was hoping for, and so what I realized is, while the book is great, the book's a greenhouse, a great way of people building relationship. You also need ways to kind of stay in touch and serve them and take people on a journey which I learned from Dean, which is to basically educate and motivate. The book is a great way of educating and motivating people to the point. Can I tell you my way of understanding it? Yeah for sure.
\n\nWell, my assumption is that there's two things people absolutely have to have before they're going to work with you. This is true as a coach, but it's a change worker, and a trainer, but it's probably true of a pretty much anything. The first thing is they got to have a relationship with you. They got to know you and like you and trust you, and that takes a certain amount of time to build. Now, if someone's going to do eye surgery on you or open heart surgery on you, you probably need quite a bit more knowing and liking and trusting than if they're going to make a sandwich for you, but so it's going to be relevant by degree, not by type.
\n\nStuart: By degree it varies. Yeah, yeah.
\n\nGeoff: So, number one, they've got to know you and like you and trust you, and that's going to take some time to build that relationship. But the other thing is they've got to have some problem or want or need or desire that they want to solve and they want your help with. And the thing is an insight for me, which I may have got from you guys or I may have innovated on my own was I realized that at the time someone goes out to solve a problem, almost by definition, they don't know enough about the problem space to come up with a good solution and they don't know enough about the problem space to decide whether you're a good person I help them with it or not. So they need that time of getting to know you, getting to know what matters to them. They need time to get present to what they really need. I found that a book is a great way of getting someone to start that journey and then to take them up.
\n\nStuart: Educate and keep the conversation going. Yeah, exactly the idea that for most of us in the businesses that we're in so professional services business it's not like we're plumbers, where in a plumbing world you're going to have two types of clients those who immediately need something because water is pouring out of the ceiling and those who have got a job somewhere further down the track. So for us, as professional services people, we're mainly in that second group. There's not many of our clients who absolutely categorically need to do this very second. So that, by very definition of the work that we do, means that it's a longer conversion period, it's more relationships-based, because they haven't got that driving need to get it sorted out immediately.
\n\nIt's when it tips that threshold of now's the time, now's my time, now's the time to do it for me. Yes, the people I'm surrounded by, the people I'm invested in, are the ones to do it with and there's a clear and obvious, easy path to move it forward. It's not like it's. Yes, I know that these, yes, I know now's the time for me. Yes, I know that these people are way to do it. But it's difficult and convoluted and cumbersome to get going If we can ease that path by making offers regularly so that when today's the day for them, they can just raise their hand and get started. It's such a difference maker from either building it and hoping they'll come or making people jump through hoops in order to evidence that they're the right clients for you, because you're trying to sift them and select them out or filter them out before they even come through.
\n\nSo that kind of conversation starting book leading to a conversational conversion framework.
\n\nYou're right, there's going to be some people who are just always going to be consumers in the world, but by putting out the same information to all of those people, the ones who are clients are going to be compelled to take the step from that greenhouse, as you describe it. I think it's such a great analogy as well because it's very kind of visual, kind of looking out the window. Here We've got a greenhouse just down in the garden which in January is covered in ice, but in the summer it's a greenhouse. But this idea of nurturing things and nurturing different things, so one greenhouse here, another greenhouse here and another one there, all nurturing different conversations I think that's an easy way for people to understand what it is you're talking about in terms of having these different approaches and the different books help in those, and the different presences, like the podcast and all these ways you've gotten engaging with people, all leading back to the same framework and that framework gives people an easy path to kind of continue that journey.
\n\nGeoff: Yeah, well, and even something like an email list looks to me like, or a Twitter feed or something like. That is a greenhouse. There's this you heard of sub-stack, right, there's this couple of guys who write an article a paid article that comes out a couple of times a week on sub-stack and their greenhouse is Twitter. So they're tweeting I don't know a dozen times a day or something and sharing occasional long tweet threads and that sort of thing and giving free previews of the article. But then you go over there and it's really high quality stuff. After a little while of reading their tweets and reading their preview posts, you're like man, this guy knows what he's talking about. I'm in right, or I'm not interested in what this guy's talking about. I'm going to mute them.
\n\nWell, yeah, the thing that strikes me I don't know if this is certainly not unique to my business, but certainly any business where the person's going to be working closely with you my rule of thumb is that before someone's going to sign up to work closely with you, they're probably going to need to spend somewhere between four and eight hours with you, whether that's listening to stuff or reading stuff, or watching videos or reading articles or reading books and a book is a great depending on the length of the book. A great is a great way of getting a chunk of that. If it's a book that they're going to refer to again and again, it's a great. So even if it's a small book, but it's one that they'll keep referring to and dipping into and that sort of thing, it's a great way of building that relationship.
\n\nStuart: It ties into what you were saying about the problem set. Oftentimes they don't understand the problem set A podcast I'm not sure how this is going to fall into the release schedule, so I think it was maybe three weeks ago, as people are listening to this, when it releases. Three weeks ago we recorded a show with Betsy, just touching on the beginning of the year. What suggestions would we make? And one of the key things is just this idea of content in 2023 really being a watershed moment. So it's been a game changer for the last couple of years, but really, I think 2023, with the advent of chat, gdp and the ability to more quickly create a baseline of content, everyone else is going to start jumping on that bandwagon. So if you don't have anything, you're going to get left behind. If you're just doing what everyone else is doing, like the bare minimum AI version, okay, you're going to keep up, but the opportunity is really to add something new.
\n\nSo we were talking about a similar thing in people not understanding the problem set and asking questions that maybe aren't the most relevant questions. So we came up with a quick model that, even if you don't know what to write about, but you think a book is a good idea, then an easy way of creating something is what we've started referring to as the five by five model. So five questions that customers ask and there's easy ways of getting that information. Five questions or five things that they should be asking. So this is you sharing your inside information, and then five action steps, five things that they can take, and then the other two fives to round it out, and all beyond the board.
\n\nBut those, just as you were saying that, them not understanding their problem set, so needing to spend some additional time with you in order to understand exactly where they are and evidence to themselves that you're the right person to help them solve the problem. Breaking those things down I mean, the idea of the five by five book is to quickly and easily create something that's kind of in a subject, but thinking about developing those additional hours. So that book would take I'm not the fastest reader would take an hour to read, okay, so what we're going to do for those other seven hours. Well, each of those 10 elements that we've just identified, there's an hours worth of podcast in each of those elements to drive a little bit deeper. So the ability now to nurture all of those things in the greenhouse from a couple of seed plants but then propagate some other things kind of killing this metaphor a little bit.
\n\nBut maybe it's a death's jerk, go for it. I know that's it. It's a good metaphor. Let's hammer the heck out of it. But it's such an easy thing to do because, like you said, clarity, the whole purpose of that. There's so much going on compared with I was talking to someone again a storytime. I was talking to someone a couple of weeks ago might even have been before Christmas. So I'm 47 now.
\n\nMy first job out of college was in 95. And it really was on 96. But it really wasn't. I can remember being at my first job when we were given email addresses. So I was working before we had email addresses. I think I still had a personal email address because Geeky techie did that personally. But trying to think back to a time when you worked in a job there wasn't constantly interrupted by email, it's almost thinking what were we doing? But clarity, so to take away some of the noise and be able to focus on certain things, this whole framework that we're talking about, of generating this eight hours worth of stuff, of having these opportunities for people to join the funnel at the top, staying in touch with them later, it can seem overwhelming. So to be able to break that down into something that's easy and manageable and unsubject, that's, scope constrained but valuable. I think all of that adds into the clarity of the marketing piece of thinking about this as an approach.
\n\nGeoff: I couldn't agree more. The thing that I found like for me, as you'll probably remember, when I did the exponential practice scorecard book, that was at the beginning of sort of experimenting with this stuff and building it out and that sort of thing, and it really helped me to just nail down the book, so that I because then I had to to me in a way and this is maybe a weird way of putting it, but once the book was done, there was a pretty much kind of fix like it was almost like the keystone of everything else that go up. It's kind of funny actually that this might be interesting. So how it strikes me, stuart, is that when I wrote clarity right, so clarity came out in 2013.
\n\nI started writing it in 2011 as part of a kind of promotional exercise. I said to my audience so I got a bunch of people on my email list I said I'm going to write a book, I'll send you a chapter a week. Here it goes. So I wrote that and then over time, you know, ended up getting into bookstores in 2013.
\n\nBut what I didn't realize was that this book was like a seed that was getting planted in the ground and what grew out of it is the whole business that I have today. So I've got the clarity certification training, the clarity events, training that all the my girlfriend and I are kicking off a program this weekend called the Clarity Professional Program. So that kind of that book was a keystone for the whole business. The what is now the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book is a keystone for that particular aspect of our business teaching coaches how to build a thriving practice. And the thing that suddenly struck me the new edition of Clarity is coming out literally end of this month as we record, so end of January is the 10th anniversary edition. And what suddenly struck me earlier last year was that that's a new seed that I'm planting in the ground and something new is going to grow from that. And some of it's going to be the same stuff I've already got, just, you know, re-energized by the new book and all that sort of thing. But some of it's going to be new stuff because, of course, I'm in a different place and it's a different book and the audience is in a different place. So it's really cool. But here's the other thing related to that might be interesting from what can you do with a book? So after a few years, what's?
\n\nA lot of people have read your book, a lot of people who are connected to you, so I don't know. A bunch of people in the world have read my books, but only a relatively small number of those are within my close greenhouse, like they're seeing my Facebook messages, they're reading my emails, that sort of thing. A bunch of people read the book. It's on their bookshelf. They never heard from me again, that kind of thing.
\n\nBut there are a bunch of people who are kind of in my world, so to speak, and those are the people who are also my best clients, the most likely people to do business with me again when they need help with something and that sort of thing. So those are the people who we've cultivated relationship with over the years. So we're getting ready for the new edition to launch and my publishers emailed me last week. They said oh, jamie, I'm sure you haven't forgotten this, but you need to do pre-orders on Amazon now. Basically, you need a bunch of people to go in pre-order from Amazon to get the book. I was like I had forgotten, so I'm like oh, what am.
\n\nI going to do so. I go onto Facebook and I say hey guys, 10th anniversary edition of Clarity is coming out. I need your help. We've got to do pre-orders, and here's why. But here's the thing I'm not trying to get a best seller here. I just want people who are going to read the book, because I know if you read the book, it's going to make a difference to you. So if you really want to read the book, you can be one of the first people to get a copy of it. Just go to Amazon and place your pre-order and it'll be the first ones that get mailed out on 20th anniversary.
\n\nWell, hundreds of people. It's like send one to me, send one to me. Send one because they want to be part of it. Because they're not? Yes, I'd like to think they're doing it because it's going to be such a great group book. But here's the thing that people may miss. A big part of why they want to do it is they want to help you out, especially when you're talking about content. If people are connected with a content creator and enjoying their content and like what they're saying, like where they're coming from, like their perspective on the world, they want you to do well Because, for a bunch of reasons A, they're nice, they care about you, it endorses the fact that they're buying into your view of the world as well, so it's all good. So to me, the book is this keystone that allows all those relationships to grow from it. So it's really cool.
\n\nStuart: It's an interesting asset and I say to people a lot that 90-minute books is a marketing company. It just happens that books is the most effective way of achieving what we're trying to achieve. So it's unclear how long this psychological element will continue, but there's definitely a disproportionate psychological advantage of having a book. I just recorded a podcast yesterday with Rob Legenhausen, who's a financial planner like a wealth management firm. So they've written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, because a lot of their work is specifically around dividends rather than portfolio work or ETFs, mutual funds so that's their perspective. So he's had a book for a couple of months now.
\n\nHe was saying the majority of his clients are slightly older than us and those people are very keyed into. Well, he was saying I don't know whether it's just because those people are slightly older and they come from an old publishing mentality. So if he was talking with 18 year olds it might not be the same. But just physically, having the book is a game changer. It stops people in their tracks, there's an authority around it and it builds that community much more than a newsletter does or an email does, even though the content is still effectively the same thing. It's worked on a page, but the psychology around it is still different.
\n\nGeoff: It really is, I think. Well, it may be different to 18 year olds and things. The things that strikes me, stuart, is that books are lindy, like books have been around for I don't know when was the printing press the 1600s, the 1500s? So books have been around about 500 years. Iphones have been around about 14 years. So books are way more lindy than iPhones. So books are way more lindy than Kindles. Now, kindles is a really useful way to consume information, but there's a way in which books are kind of magical objects, and I don't mean that in a woo woo way. I mean it's just like a deck of cards or I don't know. Ok, I've got books and decks of cards. They have a certain totemic quality to them Basically.
\n\nEven the word author is like the root of the word authority. So there's, they imbue a certain amount of authority and credibility.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, we were talking on. I can't. This year has been a strange year in the sense that it's there's been so many people have reached out so I've for years I've offered like strategy calls out there Just say hey, because I love talking about this type of thing, as you can tell from the podcast. So I pretty much always offered strategy calls but not that many people have picked up on them, so I can't actually tell. At the end of last year people might have noticed, but at the end of last year I made a commitment to be more front of camera facing, like broadcasting more of our stuff. But for 10 years we've kind of run it in the background but not really overly publicized it or talked about it that much, because it doesn't come naturally to me. I don't. If I'm thinking about doing something, I'm thinking about fixing the problem or doing something behind the scenes, not publishing something out front. So anyway, towards the end of the year I made a commitment to change that a little bit. So it might be partly that might be other factors.
\n\nBut talking on strategy calls about this idea of of authoring, the idea not writing a book. So writing a book is a technical element which is a headache and pain in the neck, and that's why 90 minute books exist, because we tried to say the writing element away from it, because that's not the important piece. The important piece is being the author of an idea, and you can be the author of an idea on Twitter or in a book or on a video, but it's the shaming ideas which is the main thing. The functionality or the process of doing the book is almost secondary. Yes, end up with a product, but again that idea out there. It's a big difference.
\n\nGeoff: I can tell you a real, I can give you a real time example that has happened on this call. When you said, oh yeah, my last guest was Rob, who's written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, I mean immediately went I get it. I need to speak to Rob, right Done, like just you telling me the title of his book. Now here's the thing, but here's the thing that people made. Here's the thing that looks so amazing about that to me.
\n\nRob didn't come to you and say I want to write a book called the. I mean, he may have, but my assertion is, if Rob's like almost every author, he came to you and said I want to write a book called those 17 ways to do X, y and Z. And you guys were like you know what, rob? I think there may be an even better title out there. Let's see if we can find it. And what he's got with the Dividend Lifestyle is a title that for the right people and I'm one of them they're like I get it. I need to have a conversation with that man. Done Right, yeah, like that's powerful. Now, my guess is that I did that. Behind it will have existed that phrase the Dividend Lifestyle may well not have existed if it wasn't for Rob going through the process Right.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's so funny. I mean the one of the reasons we? Well, there's two reasons for switching the setup of this show to be more focused on individuals and their books, and whether they've written them with us or not, it doesn't matter, it's just the idea of getting the book out there, more focused in the conversation, starting books rather than the traditional books, because that's really what we're encouraging people to do. But still, users or not doesn't matter, just get the damn thing out there. But one of the reasons for one of the other reasons for switching is because we spent 100 episodes kind of retelling the same story, kind of hammering home the same points, and after 100 episodes you kind of think I've been here before, but once transpired in the last, I think we're. Maybe this is the eighth or ninth one of this type that we've done, but still the same message comes through. But it's so much more contextual or real, having a conversation about it rather than just trying to educate about it. Because the ideas that we've got in the book blueprint, scorecard, the framework book, the eight mindsets that talk about the choosing a single target market, a title that resonates and amplifying sub-adding, minimum, viable commitment calls to action, to make it easy to take the next steps. And then, looking at the internal parts, the purposeful outline, so it guides people. Something where value-driven content, so you're giving people value in the content, you're not trying to bait and switch them into a meeting.
\n\nThe beneficial constraints, which is one that no one thinks about. What without constraints? Because we're all business owners listening to this, no one. We've set our lives up specifically that we haven't got people telling us what to do. But the downside to that is three years later, five years later, we still haven't done the thing. So the idea of beneficial constraints. And then, beyond the book, how are we going to actually use it? To put it in a greenhouse, to amplify it, and not just build it? And they will come so to be able to have these real-life examples and not just teach. I mean, hopefully people are getting much more value than just listening to me, benny Betze, hear every week about why you should do it. I'm sure this tangent was going somewhere, but I've lost the thought.
\n\nGeoff: Well, I tell you what I get there's a bunch of things I get from it, which is that, among other things, obviously this podcast is also a greenhouse. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with you. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with your guests, so there's a win-win there. But here's the other thing that strikes me. Stuart, like I think, you and I first met on the first breakthrough blueprint that Dean did in London that I came on, which must be, I'm going to say, like 10 years ago nearly nine years ago, something like that.
\n\nStuart: Time goes fast.
\n\nGeoff: Well, so I've done a certain amount of business with you guys, right, but not like millions of dollars. I've been spent millions of dollars with you, but we got a great relationship and like I. So this is an offer, also an opportunity to continue developing that relationship. Like you told me, oh yeah, we're hoping to do a breakthrough blueprint in London. So I'm like man, yeah, it's about time I'd like to go on that again. You know all that sort of stuff, right, so it's all part of it. It's an opportunity for people to. I once heard Alex Mandozian put it brilliantly. He said he wants people to turn up the volume or change the channel. So it's like so it's not about making something that everyone's going to like, it's that you're creating something that people are going to learn from and build that relationship, and yeah.
\n\nStuart: I just think it's great One of the interesting things and want to be respectful of your time because I can talk for far too long, unlike me, right. Like I know this could be a long episode for people listening. Just get some. We're both drinking, so get some coffee and buckle in. One of the things, though that's interesting, you were talking about the framework and turn up the volume or change the channel. That's such a clear message that I think the majority of people can take.
\n\nSo the conversations that we have with people, two things happen all the time. One I first thought about this years ago and we've had a conversation with you years ago and still haven't done it. So that's the first thing, the kind of get off the fence and just do it, don't overthink it, it could be done by now. And the second one is this idea of a framework. So a lot of people will come thinking about the book as a broad thing. They're scared about choosing the single target market because most businesses can do five things at least and they don't want to double down. And that makes it difficult for people to turn up the volume because they're never sure about what they're going to get. It's kind of like TV channels or podcasts. You pretty much can understand this podcast is never going to talk about relationships or technology, because we're talking about books as a marketing tool. So there's a clarity around that, the framework. So again, the conversation with Rob from yesterday is clear my head because it was just today. But the dividend lifestyle I was asking him what they do as an onboarding process for clients and how can they bridge what they're already doing into a framework that uses the dividend lifestyle names. So, just like you were talking about in the clarity framework, you've got a whole world surrounding this. Now, the opportunity to name it and claim it around a framework just gives people commonality of language and I think that helps build rapport and helps build the relationship because you're all you're talking about a known set of language.
\n\nBack in my corporate IT days there's a whole load of acronyms and terms and frameworks and models that people use in the business and it's almost a little bit exclusionary. We talked about this with the financial advisors and the lawyer type clients that we have. There's a risk of the language being exclusionary if it's talked about in a certain way, but there's the opportunity for a framework to be inclusionary. That's even a word. I've been in America too long and making up words. Inclusive, that's the obvious word and there's the opportunity for the framework to be inclusive because you can build a structure around things. So you were talking about having worked in our world, in Deans world, for coming up on 10 years now. The B3B looping framework is a language that we can use to bring it all together. So that's really an interesting insight from some of the conversations in the last few days of building that rapport and kind of feeding the plants in the greenhouse.
\n\nGeoff: Well, the thing I appreciate about the framework you guys use in Breakthrough Blueprint and I think this is the thing that really strikes me is it's a framework that, as soon as I learned it as soon as it took a little while, because it's like seeing something going on, it's like seeing something that's already there, but that's the thing I loved about it it got me closer to the reality of what's already going on.
\n\nAnd the thing I love about that framework is that it simplifies things by getting you closer to reality. So it's not an abstract concept or idea. It's not even a prescriptive framework. It's a descriptive framework. It's describing something that's already true, that's already at play in every business, and that's what made it so powerful. It's what I've done with the book Clarity as well. I've tried to make it purely descriptive, so it gets you closer to something that's already going on for you in your business, in your relationships, in your mind, because if you can make a framework that works like that, it's going to unleash so much power for people, and I think that's what you guys have done with Breakthrough Blueprint or Breakthrough.
\n\nStuart: BNN. Yeah, and the same with the book scorecards and the same with all of the ones where we have a Well, I could hear it in the book scorecard.
\n\nGeoff: I could hear some of the. I was sensing it already. Sorry to interrupt.
\n\nStuart: No, well, just as you were saying, trying to keep it so that it's easy to understand and universally applicable, and it just changes by a degree. So just jumping back to the we're kind of wrapping up now. Jumping back to the three books that you've got. So Clarity's, on its 10th anniversary revision Results, is there, and the Thrive Framework one. Those three are they part of? What's the best way of saying this? They're obviously all part of the same thing, because they're all part of your world and how you help people, but do they the way that you use them? I'm just trying to bridge this for other people who are listening, who don't have any books yet and can might feel overwhelmed by the idea of having one. That alone. Three Do you use them in quite different ways? Are they addressing different markets or do they build on each other? Good question, they're thematically very similar.
\n\nGeoff: Okay, so in reverse order, the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book, aka the Exponential Practice Scorecard, aka the profitable Coaches Scorecard, that specifically aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers, people who are looking to build a thriving business doing the work that they're passionate about in terms of helping other people out. So coaches, therapists, change workers, that sort of thing. Now there's a special sweet spot, which is it's leveraging all of the stuff from this book and this book for a very specific outcome. So in every single one of those steps it turns out that the main thing that for that audience specifically, who traditionally hate selling, hate marketing, anything like that, it's showing how understanding the principles behind clarity can turn selling from being a icky, manipulative that sort of thing to actually being heartfelt, connective relationship, enhancing all that sort of stuff. So it's leveraging the stuff from these books in a specific application. You could say. So the application is building a thriving coaching business as an application of the principles in these books.
\n\nThe book clarity, which is the first one, is the most general of all the books, so it's for any one. So we've had everyone from business owners to charity leaders, to prison inmates, to people in recovery centers, to army veterans. I did a talk on this stuff at the NATO Defense College in Rome last summer. We've had people from all walks of life reading clarity, writing to us about. It sold about 70,000 copies so far, so it's our most general book. And then results is a. All the books are what I term as business-friendly personal development. Results is a more business. Your mom could read clarity and go. That was lovely. Results is a more business-focused out coding of the principles behind clarity.
\n\nSo it's working on the same kind of More, kind of actionable.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nGeoff: So I think of it as being three elements. There's what I call grounding, which is kind of the mindset piece. There's impact, which is the difference you make to people, and then there's leverage, which is how you get paid for it, so it's who you're being, what you're doing and how you're making the cash register ring. So results is divided into those three sections, and so is the thriving coaches scorecard book, because it's a more business-friendly coding, whereas clarity isn't. Clarity is all about you and your mind and your relationships and stuff.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting the different perspectives and the different use cases for it. So, going into clarity again, we're a nine-minute book audience, so most of the people listening are thinking about it more specifically in terms of that single target market and the marketing piece. So clarity is coming from that broader perspective. It's almost like Very general.
\n\nYeah, yeah. Sometimes we refer to them as manifesto books, although again, we usually talk about smaller books, but introducing that topic, but the way that they build together, I think, whether you're, as you're listening to this, whether or watching this, as you're thinking about the book to go out, there is definitely the fixing and solving a problem which is very specific. Here's what you should know, almost like the how-to type book, this idea of a manifesto book as well. Introducing an idea obviously you don't need to. It doesn't have to be as big or as broad as clarity. That's a substantial, what we would call a traditional book.
\n\nBut the idea of introducing that idea, even if it's just positioning your way of thinking out in the world and kind of planting a flag and, just as you said, you don't know what's then going to grow from it, even if you don't have a very clear strategy for the marketing. Very specifically, from the book to an auto responder, to a flagship broadcast, to an offer, even if that's not in place. Again, going back to that idea that 2023 is really going to be a watershed moment for content, naming and claiming that and getting it, planting a flag out there, and then who knows what will come from it. If nothing else, I think that's worthwhile for people who are listening to this and on the fence.
\n\nGeoff: I think that makes a lot of sense and you guys do that right. You'll help people write a manifesto book. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense because, as much as anything, one of the things that clarity has done for my business is it's one of the biggest jobs it's done is as a positioning tool. It's positioned, it's basically said this is what the understanding is, this is what it is, this is what it is and here's who it's for, here's who it can help. All that sort of stuff and a lot of this will resonate with you.
\n\nI'm sure, stuart, a lot of people when I meet them, they go oh I wanted to work with you, that sort of thing. I bought your book. I didn't actually read it. They're still working with me because they bought the book, because that was the first step, and then they listened to a podcast and that sort of thing and then, before they know it, we're working together because they've had enough input from whatever sources were right for them to do it, but it was the book that got them started on the path.
\n\nStuart: It's the element, it's one of the elements of that know I can trust. So whether or not they read it, I posted something yesterday. I tweeted out a little essay thing that I wrote saying no one reads anymore. You should write a book, and it just talks about readership rates and how relatively low they are, even for fiction, where the job of work is literally to read. So why would anyone read your book? But the point is that it exists, that you've got it, that there's the opportunity to start conversations. So such a great point. Where can people find out more and make sure that we give people access? Because I've read Clarity and it's the original version, so it's definitely really helps that cut through the noise. So again that if none of the others way worth that way with the time in reading, so where can people go to get copies of all of them?
\n\nGeoff: So all the books are on Amazon wherever you are. It just, funnily enough, it just hit number one in business development and entrepreneurship in the UK before it's even been released, so that's our fastest number one ever. The Thriving Coach's scorecard is free on our website, so if you go to jamesmartcom, you can download it for free there Though I'm going to be talking to you, Stuart, about getting it paid for on Amazon, so I don't know if I'll keep the free version there. But also we released it on the podcast and stuff like that, the audio version, just because it's a great way of people consuming the information. And then Results Clarity the little book of Results, the little book of Clarity. You can find out about them at Amazon or wherever you get books, and the jamesmartcom has everything. And then I mean all the usual social places at jamesmartcom, so I'm on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and all that stuff.
\n\nStuart: Well, I'll make sure to put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, just hit on the most podcast players, play the show notes. Or, if you're following the email, just check out the website. I'll link to the US stores just because it's easy to go from here, but I think Amazon will automatically redirect if you're in a different region, so that'll be the easiest way. And definitely check out jamesmartcom for all things jamesmart.
\n\nGeoff: Thanks, man, great to see you.
\n\nStuart: Great to see you too. It's time to come fast. Thanks again for your time, and then we'll check in less than 10 years in the future.
\n\nGeoff: Looking forward to it.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Geoff Hoatson, elder law lawyer at Family First Firm in Altamonte Springs, Florida and author of _Next Stop: Nursing Home_, a book that helps people who are looking to protect their wealth, inheritance, and utilize Medicaid for nursing home and specialist support. \r\n\r\nGeoff's business is in an interesting position because a lot of the time, the people they're talking to and trying to engage the family members of an older relative who are in a difficult position and need that full-time care. So although their clients are ultimately the patient, the person needing care, the conversation starts with the family members.\r\n\r\nThis is a fascinating conversation about how they help by revealing options people aren't aware of, all while keeping a balanced approach to their client and the family member who may be asked to make decisions.\r\n\r\nI really enjoyed catching up with Geoff, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how a book is making a difference in helping people help their families preserve wealth.\r\nJeff’s business has an exciting position because a lot of the time the people they're talking to and trying to engage with are the children of older family members who are incapacitated, and need that full-time care. So although their clients are the patient, the person in the nursing home, the people that they're dealing with are their agents, the people who have the power of attorney.\r\n\r\nSo it's a fascinating conversation talking about the way that they help in terms of revealing options to people that they didn't necessarily know that they had. I really enjoyed catching up with Larry, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how having a book can bring a difference in who they're trying to engage with in marketing and who they ultimately end up helping in terms of the clients.\r\n","date_published":"2023-02-05T12:15:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/3c41c0a6-e1e9-4990-8188-fb8ec77bee9c.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":26825504,"duration_in_seconds":2225}]},{"id":"d68dff0b-fa49-4629-abba-f11f7e2088d0","title":"Ep127: A Greenhouse to Nurture Clients with Jamie Smart","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/127","content_text":"\n\n\n\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're with Jamie Smart, author of three books and creator of Clarity, a system that helps coaches develop, make a real difference to others, and grow their businesses.\n\nJamie's just updated the Clarity book on its 10 year anniversary, and we had a great chat about what he's learned over that time using the books to grow his business, how he built relationships with future clients, and how his company has developed since creating his first book.\n\nJamie talks about how he sees the ideas in his books as nurturing a thought with someone and the opportunity to feed them more information to help them grow. We also discussed how a quote he heard on a podcast resonated with the books he's created. It talked about each piece of information you share acting like a greenhouse to nurture relationships with people.\n\nI really enjoy catching up with Jamie, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how having a book can bring clients to the point where they know they can trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you\n\n\nLINKS\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/127\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nAbout Jamie\nAmazon Store\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here. Today we've got a great interview with Jamie Smart. So Jamie's the author of three books, one with us and two traditional books. The first, clarity, is actually coming up for its 10 year anniversary, so a refreshed version, all updated, is just on the way out. \n\nWe had a chat with Jamie talking about what he's learned over the last 10 years in using the books in his business, how his business has developed since having the books and what's really come from it. And this idea of using your book as a greenhouse to nurture the relationships with people and how it's a great opportunity to build a rapport. And this idea of getting the clients to the point where they know like and trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you. So great episode. I love talking to Jamie. We've met in person a number of times back in the UK. So with that, let's get to the episode. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. Today we've got, I think, a returning guest. I think, jamie, you've been on this show before. You've definitely been on some of the other shows. \n\nI've been on shows, that's for sure, yeah definitely been on shows, so people will hopefully recognise the voice, if not the face, because now we've got glorious Technicolor video. So Rob is Rob. I just said Rob off camera. I got Rob in my head. Jamie's here because we're talking about a 10 year relaunch of one of his books and then there's a couple of other books he's gotten stable, so it's a great opportunity to touch base and see how he's been using the various books in the different funnels, what has come from them in something that's now 10 years down the track, which is kind of surprised both of us. So, jamie Smart, why don't you give everyone a quick Jamie Smart catch up if this is their first experience? \n\nJamie: Got it so okay. So I'm Jamie and I'm a business owner, a coach, a trainer. I teach a lot of coaches, work with businesses, that sort of thing. My kind of niche, if you like, is mindset. So I talk about the principles behind clarity and subtractive psychology, and the basic idea is that you know how most people have a lot on their mind. I mean, you know how most people had a lot on their mind 10 years ago. \n\nStuart: Well, now, most people really have a lot on their mind. \n\nJamie: Well, we teach people a simple understanding that takes things off your mind, so you have the confidence and presence and well-being to enjoy your life and do whatever you're here to do. So that's what we're up to, and my first book, clarity, came out 10 years ago. That became a bestseller, followed up by a book called Results, which became a Sunday Times bestseller. But in there I also created a book with Stuart and Dean called well, originally it was called your exponential practice scorecard, so it was aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers. I've changed the name of that about five times and so now it's called the Thriving Coaches Scorecard and we've got the Thriving Coaches Scorecard, the Thriving Coaches Facebook group, the Thriving Coaches podcast, and the idea is that all these things create what I call a greenhouse, which is an idea I got from, and a book is an example of a greenhouse. \n\nIt's an idea I got from a guy called Chris Tomasulo about a million years ago and he said look, if you want to grow a plant in the desert, you've got to put up a greenhouse and irrigate it. He said well, I heard him say this in like 2003 or 2004,. Right, so early days of the internet. He goes the internet is a desert. No one's ever going to find you there. He says if you want to cultivate relationships in that desert, you need to put up a greenhouse and you need to irrigate it, and that metaphor really struck me, and so I see all these things each book, each podcast, each Facebook group. It is a greenhouse for nurturing and cultivating relationships with people, some of whom are going to want to do business with you. \n\nNot all of them. Not everyone who reads this book or this book is going to want to do business with me, but some of them will. Some of them will read them and go. Oh my God, I never want to have to deal with this guy. \n\nStuart: At least it's all collecting yeah yeah, that's cool too. \n\nJamie: So the idea, what's happened over the last 10 years is I've learned lots about all kinds of things, including marketing and how to use a book and that sort of thing, because, well, you'll know this, stuart, it's kind of funny. When Clarity first came out, I had this kind of idealized vision, which was basically step one the book hits the bookshops. Step two here come the clients, and while there was some of that, it doesn't work like that. It didn't work exactly like that. There were some people who just called. So this was before I started working with you guys. This is like 2013. \n\nThere were people who would call up, say, hey, I just read the book, I want to book on a program, or they go online or whatever. But it wasn't quite the deluge that I was hoping for, and so what I realized is, while the book is great, the book's a greenhouse, a great way of people building relationship. You also need ways to kind of stay in touch and serve them and take people on a journey which I learned from Dean, which is to basically educate and motivate. The book is a great way of educating and motivating people to the point. Can I tell you my way of understanding it? Yeah for sure. \n\nWell, my assumption is that there's two things people absolutely have to have before they're going to work with you. This is true as a coach, but it's a change worker, and a trainer, but it's probably true of a pretty much anything. The first thing is they got to have a relationship with you. They got to know you and like you and trust you, and that takes a certain amount of time to build. Now, if someone's going to do eye surgery on you or open heart surgery on you, you probably need quite a bit more knowing and liking and trusting than if they're going to make a sandwich for you, but so it's going to be relevant by degree, not by type. \n\nStuart: By degree it varies. Yeah, yeah. \n\nJamie: So, number one, they've got to know you and like you and trust you, and that's going to take some time to build that relationship. But the other thing is they've got to have some problem or want or need or desire that they want to solve and they want your help with. And the thing is an insight for me, which I may have got from you guys or I may have innovated on my own was I realized that at the time someone goes out to solve a problem, almost by definition, they don't know enough about the problem space to come up with a good solution and they don't know enough about the problem space to decide whether you're a good person I help them with it or not. So they need that time of getting to know you, getting to know what matters to them. They need time to get present to what they really need. I found that a book is a great way of getting someone to start that journey and then to take them up. \n\nStuart: Educate and keep the conversation going. Yeah, exactly the idea that for most of us in the businesses that we're in so professional services business it's not like we're plumbers, where in a plumbing world you're going to have two types of clients those who immediately need something because water is pouring out of the ceiling and those who have got a job somewhere further down the track. So for us, as professional services people, we're mainly in that second group. There's not many of our clients who absolutely categorically need to do this very second. So that, by very definition of the work that we do, means that it's a longer conversion period, it's more relationships-based, because they haven't got that driving need to get it sorted out immediately. \n\nIt's when it tips that threshold of now's the time, now's my time, now's the time to do it for me. Yes, the people I'm surrounded by, the people I'm invested in, are the ones to do it with and there's a clear and obvious, easy path to move it forward. It's not like it's. Yes, I know that these, yes, I know now's the time for me. Yes, I know that these people are way to do it. But it's difficult and convoluted and cumbersome to get going If we can ease that path by making offers regularly so that when today's the day for them, they can just raise their hand and get started. It's such a difference maker from either building it and hoping they'll come or making people jump through hoops in order to evidence that they're the right clients for you, because you're trying to sift them and select them out or filter them out before they even come through. \n\nSo that kind of conversation starting book leading to a conversational conversion framework. \n\nYou're right, there's going to be some people who are just always going to be consumers in the world, but by putting out the same information to all of those people, the ones who are clients are going to be compelled to take the step from that greenhouse, as you describe it. I think it's such a great analogy as well because it's very kind of visual, kind of looking out the window. Here We've got a greenhouse just down in the garden which in January is covered in ice, but in the summer it's a greenhouse. But this idea of nurturing things and nurturing different things, so one greenhouse here, another greenhouse here and another one there, all nurturing different conversations I think that's an easy way for people to understand what it is you're talking about in terms of having these different approaches and the different books help in those, and the different presences, like the podcast and all these ways you've gotten engaging with people, all leading back to the same framework and that framework gives people an easy path to kind of continue that journey. \n\nJamie: Yeah, well, and even something like an email list looks to me like, or a Twitter feed or something like. That is a greenhouse. There's this you heard of sub-stack, right, there's this couple of guys who write an article a paid article that comes out a couple of times a week on sub-stack and their greenhouse is Twitter. So they're tweeting I don't know a dozen times a day or something and sharing occasional long tweet threads and that sort of thing and giving free previews of the article. But then you go over there and it's really high quality stuff. After a little while of reading their tweets and reading their preview posts, you're like man, this guy knows what he's talking about. I'm in right, or I'm not interested in what this guy's talking about. I'm going to mute them. \n\nWell, yeah, the thing that strikes me I don't know if this is certainly not unique to my business, but certainly any business where the person's going to be working closely with you my rule of thumb is that before someone's going to sign up to work closely with you, they're probably going to need to spend somewhere between four and eight hours with you, whether that's listening to stuff or reading stuff, or watching videos or reading articles or reading books and a book is a great depending on the length of the book. A great is a great way of getting a chunk of that. If it's a book that they're going to refer to again and again, it's a great. So even if it's a small book, but it's one that they'll keep referring to and dipping into and that sort of thing, it's a great way of building that relationship. \n\nStuart: It ties into what you were saying about the problem set. Oftentimes they don't understand the problem set A podcast I'm not sure how this is going to fall into the release schedule, so I think it was maybe three weeks ago, as people are listening to this, when it releases. Three weeks ago we recorded a show with Betsy, just touching on the beginning of the year. What suggestions would we make? And one of the key things is just this idea of content in 2023 really being a watershed moment. So it's been a game changer for the last couple of years, but really, I think 2023, with the advent of chat, gdp and the ability to more quickly create a baseline of content, everyone else is going to start jumping on that bandwagon. So if you don't have anything, you're going to get left behind. If you're just doing what everyone else is doing, like the bare minimum AI version, okay, you're going to keep up, but the opportunity is really to add something new. \n\nSo we were talking about a similar thing in people not understanding the problem set and asking questions that maybe aren't the most relevant questions. So we came up with a quick model that, even if you don't know what to write about, but you think a book is a good idea, then an easy way of creating something is what we've started referring to as the five by five model. So five questions that customers ask and there's easy ways of getting that information. Five questions or five things that they should be asking. So this is you sharing your inside information, and then five action steps, five things that they can take, and then the other two fives to round it out, and all beyond the board. \n\nBut those, just as you were saying that, them not understanding their problem set, so needing to spend some additional time with you in order to understand exactly where they are and evidence to themselves that you're the right person to help them solve the problem. Breaking those things down I mean, the idea of the five by five book is to quickly and easily create something that's kind of in a subject, but thinking about developing those additional hours. So that book would take I'm not the fastest reader would take an hour to read, okay, so what we're going to do for those other seven hours. Well, each of those 10 elements that we've just identified, there's an hours worth of podcast in each of those elements to drive a little bit deeper. So the ability now to nurture all of those things in the greenhouse from a couple of seed plants but then propagate some other things kind of killing this metaphor a little bit. \n\nBut maybe it's a death's jerk, go for it. I know that's it. It's a good metaphor. Let's hammer the heck out of it. But it's such an easy thing to do because, like you said, clarity, the whole purpose of that. There's so much going on compared with I was talking to someone again a storytime. I was talking to someone a couple of weeks ago might even have been before Christmas. So I'm 47 now. \n\nMy first job out of college was in 95. And it really was on 96. But it really wasn't. I can remember being at my first job when we were given email addresses. So I was working before we had email addresses. I think I still had a personal email address because Geeky techie did that personally. But trying to think back to a time when you worked in a job there wasn't constantly interrupted by email, it's almost thinking what were we doing? But clarity, so to take away some of the noise and be able to focus on certain things, this whole framework that we're talking about, of generating this eight hours worth of stuff, of having these opportunities for people to join the funnel at the top, staying in touch with them later, it can seem overwhelming. So to be able to break that down into something that's easy and manageable and unsubject, that's, scope constrained but valuable. I think all of that adds into the clarity of the marketing piece of thinking about this as an approach. \n\nJamie: I couldn't agree more. The thing that I found like for me, as you'll probably remember, when I did the exponential practice scorecard book, that was at the beginning of sort of experimenting with this stuff and building it out and that sort of thing, and it really helped me to just nail down the book, so that I because then I had to to me in a way and this is maybe a weird way of putting it, but once the book was done, there was a pretty much kind of fix like it was almost like the keystone of everything else that go up. It's kind of funny actually that this might be interesting. So how it strikes me, stuart, is that when I wrote clarity right, so clarity came out in 2013. \n\nI started writing it in 2011 as part of a kind of promotional exercise. I said to my audience so I got a bunch of people on my email list I said I'm going to write a book, I'll send you a chapter a week. Here it goes. So I wrote that and then over time, you know, ended up getting into bookstores in 2013. \n\nBut what I didn't realize was that this book was like a seed that was getting planted in the ground and what grew out of it is the whole business that I have today. So I've got the clarity certification training, the clarity events, training that all the my girlfriend and I are kicking off a program this weekend called the Clarity Professional Program. So that kind of that book was a keystone for the whole business. The what is now the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book is a keystone for that particular aspect of our business teaching coaches how to build a thriving practice. And the thing that suddenly struck me the new edition of Clarity is coming out literally end of this month as we record, so end of January is the 10th anniversary edition. And what suddenly struck me earlier last year was that that's a new seed that I'm planting in the ground and something new is going to grow from that. And some of it's going to be the same stuff I've already got, just, you know, re-energized by the new book and all that sort of thing. But some of it's going to be new stuff because, of course, I'm in a different place and it's a different book and the audience is in a different place. So it's really cool. But here's the other thing related to that might be interesting from what can you do with a book? So after a few years, what's? \n\nA lot of people have read your book, a lot of people who are connected to you, so I don't know. A bunch of people in the world have read my books, but only a relatively small number of those are within my close greenhouse, like they're seeing my Facebook messages, they're reading my emails, that sort of thing. A bunch of people read the book. It's on their bookshelf. They never heard from me again, that kind of thing. \n\nBut there are a bunch of people who are kind of in my world, so to speak, and those are the people who are also my best clients, the most likely people to do business with me again when they need help with something and that sort of thing. So those are the people who we've cultivated relationship with over the years. So we're getting ready for the new edition to launch and my publishers emailed me last week. They said oh, jamie, I'm sure you haven't forgotten this, but you need to do pre-orders on Amazon now. Basically, you need a bunch of people to go in pre-order from Amazon to get the book. I was like I had forgotten, so I'm like oh, what am. \n\nI going to do so. I go onto Facebook and I say hey guys, 10th anniversary edition of Clarity is coming out. I need your help. We've got to do pre-orders, and here's why. But here's the thing I'm not trying to get a best seller here. I just want people who are going to read the book, because I know if you read the book, it's going to make a difference to you. So if you really want to read the book, you can be one of the first people to get a copy of it. Just go to Amazon and place your pre-order and it'll be the first ones that get mailed out on 20th anniversary. \n\nWell, hundreds of people. It's like send one to me, send one to me. Send one because they want to be part of it. Because they're not? Yes, I'd like to think they're doing it because it's going to be such a great group book. But here's the thing that people may miss. A big part of why they want to do it is they want to help you out, especially when you're talking about content. If people are connected with a content creator and enjoying their content and like what they're saying, like where they're coming from, like their perspective on the world, they want you to do well Because, for a bunch of reasons A, they're nice, they care about you, it endorses the fact that they're buying into your view of the world as well, so it's all good. So to me, the book is this keystone that allows all those relationships to grow from it. So it's really cool. \n\nStuart: It's an interesting asset and I say to people a lot that 90-minute books is a marketing company. It just happens that books is the most effective way of achieving what we're trying to achieve. So it's unclear how long this psychological element will continue, but there's definitely a disproportionate psychological advantage of having a book. I just recorded a podcast yesterday with Rob Legenhausen, who's a financial planner like a wealth management firm. So they've written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, because a lot of their work is specifically around dividends rather than portfolio work or ETFs, mutual funds so that's their perspective. So he's had a book for a couple of months now. \n\nHe was saying the majority of his clients are slightly older than us and those people are very keyed into. Well, he was saying I don't know whether it's just because those people are slightly older and they come from an old publishing mentality. So if he was talking with 18 year olds it might not be the same. But just physically, having the book is a game changer. It stops people in their tracks, there's an authority around it and it builds that community much more than a newsletter does or an email does, even though the content is still effectively the same thing. It's worked on a page, but the psychology around it is still different. \n\nJamie: It really is, I think. Well, it may be different to 18 year olds and things. The things that strikes me, stuart, is that books are lindy, like books have been around for I don't know when was the printing press the 1600s, the 1500s? So books have been around about 500 years. Iphones have been around about 14 years. So books are way more lindy than iPhones. So books are way more lindy than Kindles. Now, kindles is a really useful way to consume information, but there's a way in which books are kind of magical objects, and I don't mean that in a woo woo way. I mean it's just like a deck of cards or I don't know. Ok, I've got books and decks of cards. They have a certain totemic quality to them Basically. \n\nEven the word author is like the root of the word authority. So there's, they imbue a certain amount of authority and credibility. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, we were talking on. I can't. This year has been a strange year in the sense that it's there's been so many people have reached out so I've for years I've offered like strategy calls out there Just say hey, because I love talking about this type of thing, as you can tell from the podcast. So I pretty much always offered strategy calls but not that many people have picked up on them, so I can't actually tell. At the end of last year people might have noticed, but at the end of last year I made a commitment to be more front of camera facing, like broadcasting more of our stuff. But for 10 years we've kind of run it in the background but not really overly publicized it or talked about it that much, because it doesn't come naturally to me. I don't. If I'm thinking about doing something, I'm thinking about fixing the problem or doing something behind the scenes, not publishing something out front. So anyway, towards the end of the year I made a commitment to change that a little bit. So it might be partly that might be other factors. \n\nBut talking on strategy calls about this idea of of authoring, the idea not writing a book. So writing a book is a technical element which is a headache and pain in the neck, and that's why 90 minute books exist, because we tried to say the writing element away from it, because that's not the important piece. The important piece is being the author of an idea, and you can be the author of an idea on Twitter or in a book or on a video, but it's the shaming ideas which is the main thing. The functionality or the process of doing the book is almost secondary. Yes, end up with a product, but again that idea out there. It's a big difference. \n\nJamie: I can tell you a real, I can give you a real time example that has happened on this call. When you said, oh yeah, my last guest was Rob, who's written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, I mean immediately went I get it. I need to speak to Rob, right Done, like just you telling me the title of his book. Now here's the thing, but here's the thing that people made. Here's the thing that looks so amazing about that to me. \n\nRob didn't come to you and say I want to write a book called the. I mean, he may have, but my assertion is, if Rob's like almost every author, he came to you and said I want to write a book called those 17 ways to do X, y and Z. And you guys were like you know what, rob? I think there may be an even better title out there. Let's see if we can find it. And what he's got with the Dividend Lifestyle is a title that for the right people and I'm one of them they're like I get it. I need to have a conversation with that man. Done Right, yeah, like that's powerful. Now, my guess is that I did that. Behind it will have existed that phrase the Dividend Lifestyle may well not have existed if it wasn't for Rob going through the process Right. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's so funny. I mean the one of the reasons we? Well, there's two reasons for switching the setup of this show to be more focused on individuals and their books, and whether they've written them with us or not, it doesn't matter, it's just the idea of getting the book out there, more focused in the conversation, starting books rather than the traditional books, because that's really what we're encouraging people to do. But still, users or not doesn't matter, just get the damn thing out there. But one of the reasons for one of the other reasons for switching is because we spent 100 episodes kind of retelling the same story, kind of hammering home the same points, and after 100 episodes you kind of think I've been here before, but once transpired in the last, I think we're. Maybe this is the eighth or ninth one of this type that we've done, but still the same message comes through. But it's so much more contextual or real, having a conversation about it rather than just trying to educate about it. Because the ideas that we've got in the book blueprint, scorecard, the framework book, the eight mindsets that talk about the choosing a single target market, a title that resonates and amplifying sub-adding, minimum, viable commitment calls to action, to make it easy to take the next steps. And then, looking at the internal parts, the purposeful outline, so it guides people. Something where value-driven content, so you're giving people value in the content, you're not trying to bait and switch them into a meeting. \n\nThe beneficial constraints, which is one that no one thinks about. What without constraints? Because we're all business owners listening to this, no one. We've set our lives up specifically that we haven't got people telling us what to do. But the downside to that is three years later, five years later, we still haven't done the thing. So the idea of beneficial constraints. And then, beyond the book, how are we going to actually use it? To put it in a greenhouse, to amplify it, and not just build it? And they will come so to be able to have these real-life examples and not just teach. I mean, hopefully people are getting much more value than just listening to me, benny Betze, hear every week about why you should do it. I'm sure this tangent was going somewhere, but I've lost the thought. \n\nJamie: Well, I tell you what I get there's a bunch of things I get from it, which is that, among other things, obviously this podcast is also a greenhouse. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with you. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with your guests, so there's a win-win there. But here's the other thing that strikes me. Stuart, like I think, you and I first met on the first breakthrough blueprint that Dean did in London that I came on, which must be, I'm going to say, like 10 years ago nearly nine years ago, something like that. \n\nStuart: Time goes fast. \n\nJamie: Well, so I've done a certain amount of business with you guys, right, but not like millions of dollars. I've been spent millions of dollars with you, but we got a great relationship and like I. So this is an offer, also an opportunity to continue developing that relationship. Like you told me, oh yeah, we're hoping to do a breakthrough blueprint in London. So I'm like man, yeah, it's about time I'd like to go on that again. You know all that sort of stuff, right, so it's all part of it. It's an opportunity for people to. I once heard Alex Mandozian put it brilliantly. He said he wants people to turn up the volume or change the channel. So it's like so it's not about making something that everyone's going to like, it's that you're creating something that people are going to learn from and build that relationship, and yeah. \n\nStuart: I just think it's great One of the interesting things and want to be respectful of your time because I can talk for far too long, unlike me, right. Like I know this could be a long episode for people listening. Just get some. We're both drinking, so get some coffee and buckle in. One of the things, though that's interesting, you were talking about the framework and turn up the volume or change the channel. That's such a clear message that I think the majority of people can take. \n\nSo the conversations that we have with people, two things happen all the time. One I first thought about this years ago and we've had a conversation with you years ago and still haven't done it. So that's the first thing, the kind of get off the fence and just do it, don't overthink it, it could be done by now. And the second one is this idea of a framework. So a lot of people will come thinking about the book as a broad thing. They're scared about choosing the single target market because most businesses can do five things at least and they don't want to double down. And that makes it difficult for people to turn up the volume because they're never sure about what they're going to get. It's kind of like TV channels or podcasts. You pretty much can understand this podcast is never going to talk about relationships or technology, because we're talking about books as a marketing tool. So there's a clarity around that, the framework. So again, the conversation with Rob from yesterday is clear my head because it was just today. But the dividend lifestyle I was asking him what they do as an onboarding process for clients and how can they bridge what they're already doing into a framework that uses the dividend lifestyle names. So, just like you were talking about in the clarity framework, you've got a whole world surrounding this. Now, the opportunity to name it and claim it around a framework just gives people commonality of language and I think that helps build rapport and helps build the relationship because you're all you're talking about a known set of language. \n\nBack in my corporate IT days there's a whole load of acronyms and terms and frameworks and models that people use in the business and it's almost a little bit exclusionary. We talked about this with the financial advisors and the lawyer type clients that we have. There's a risk of the language being exclusionary if it's talked about in a certain way, but there's the opportunity for a framework to be inclusionary. That's even a word. I've been in America too long and making up words. Inclusive, that's the obvious word and there's the opportunity for the framework to be inclusive because you can build a structure around things. So you were talking about having worked in our world, in Deans world, for coming up on 10 years now. The B3B looping framework is a language that we can use to bring it all together. So that's really an interesting insight from some of the conversations in the last few days of building that rapport and kind of feeding the plants in the greenhouse. \n\nJamie: Well, the thing I appreciate about the framework you guys use in Breakthrough Blueprint and I think this is the thing that really strikes me is it's a framework that, as soon as I learned it as soon as it took a little while, because it's like seeing something going on, it's like seeing something that's already there, but that's the thing I loved about it it got me closer to the reality of what's already going on. \n\nAnd the thing I love about that framework is that it simplifies things by getting you closer to reality. So it's not an abstract concept or idea. It's not even a prescriptive framework. It's a descriptive framework. It's describing something that's already true, that's already at play in every business, and that's what made it so powerful. It's what I've done with the book Clarity as well. I've tried to make it purely descriptive, so it gets you closer to something that's already going on for you in your business, in your relationships, in your mind, because if you can make a framework that works like that, it's going to unleash so much power for people, and I think that's what you guys have done with Breakthrough Blueprint or Breakthrough. \n\nStuart: BNN. Yeah, and the same with the book scorecards and the same with all of the ones where we have a Well, I could hear it in the book scorecard. \n\nJamie: I could hear some of the. I was sensing it already. Sorry to interrupt. \n\nStuart: No, well, just as you were saying, trying to keep it so that it's easy to understand and universally applicable, and it just changes by a degree. So just jumping back to the we're kind of wrapping up now. Jumping back to the three books that you've got. So Clarity's, on its 10th anniversary revision Results, is there, and the Thrive Framework one. Those three are they part of? What's the best way of saying this? They're obviously all part of the same thing, because they're all part of your world and how you help people, but do they the way that you use them? I'm just trying to bridge this for other people who are listening, who don't have any books yet and can might feel overwhelmed by the idea of having one. That alone. Three Do you use them in quite different ways? Are they addressing different markets or do they build on each other? Good question, they're thematically very similar. \n\nJamie: Okay, so in reverse order, the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book, aka the Exponential Practice Scorecard, aka the profitable Coaches Scorecard, that specifically aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers, people who are looking to build a thriving business doing the work that they're passionate about in terms of helping other people out. So coaches, therapists, change workers, that sort of thing. Now there's a special sweet spot, which is it's leveraging all of the stuff from this book and this book for a very specific outcome. So in every single one of those steps it turns out that the main thing that for that audience specifically, who traditionally hate selling, hate marketing, anything like that, it's showing how understanding the principles behind clarity can turn selling from being a icky, manipulative that sort of thing to actually being heartfelt, connective relationship, enhancing all that sort of stuff. So it's leveraging the stuff from these books in a specific application. You could say. So the application is building a thriving coaching business as an application of the principles in these books. \n\nThe book clarity, which is the first one, is the most general of all the books, so it's for any one. So we've had everyone from business owners to charity leaders, to prison inmates, to people in recovery centers, to army veterans. I did a talk on this stuff at the NATO Defense College in Rome last summer. We've had people from all walks of life reading clarity, writing to us about. It sold about 70,000 copies so far, so it's our most general book. And then results is a. All the books are what I term as business-friendly personal development. Results is a more business. Your mom could read clarity and go. That was lovely. Results is a more business-focused out coding of the principles behind clarity. \n\nSo it's working on the same kind of More, kind of actionable. \n\nStuart: Yeah. \n\nJamie: So I think of it as being three elements. There's what I call grounding, which is kind of the mindset piece. There's impact, which is the difference you make to people, and then there's leverage, which is how you get paid for it, so it's who you're being, what you're doing and how you're making the cash register ring. So results is divided into those three sections, and so is the thriving coaches scorecard book, because it's a more business-friendly coding, whereas clarity isn't. Clarity is all about you and your mind and your relationships and stuff. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting the different perspectives and the different use cases for it. So, going into clarity again, we're a nine-minute book audience, so most of the people listening are thinking about it more specifically in terms of that single target market and the marketing piece. So clarity is coming from that broader perspective. It's almost like Very general. \n\nYeah, yeah. Sometimes we refer to them as manifesto books, although again, we usually talk about smaller books, but introducing that topic, but the way that they build together, I think, whether you're, as you're listening to this, whether or watching this, as you're thinking about the book to go out, there is definitely the fixing and solving a problem which is very specific. Here's what you should know, almost like the how-to type book, this idea of a manifesto book as well. Introducing an idea obviously you don't need to. It doesn't have to be as big or as broad as clarity. That's a substantial, what we would call a traditional book. \n\nBut the idea of introducing that idea, even if it's just positioning your way of thinking out in the world and kind of planting a flag and, just as you said, you don't know what's then going to grow from it, even if you don't have a very clear strategy for the marketing. Very specifically, from the book to an auto responder, to a flagship broadcast, to an offer, even if that's not in place. Again, going back to that idea that 2023 is really going to be a watershed moment for content, naming and claiming that and getting it, planting a flag out there, and then who knows what will come from it. If nothing else, I think that's worthwhile for people who are listening to this and on the fence. \n\nJamie: I think that makes a lot of sense and you guys do that right. You'll help people write a manifesto book. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense because, as much as anything, one of the things that clarity has done for my business is it's one of the biggest jobs it's done is as a positioning tool. It's positioned, it's basically said this is what the understanding is, this is what it is, this is what it is and here's who it's for, here's who it can help. All that sort of stuff and a lot of this will resonate with you. \n\nI'm sure, stuart, a lot of people when I meet them, they go oh I wanted to work with you, that sort of thing. I bought your book. I didn't actually read it. They're still working with me because they bought the book, because that was the first step, and then they listened to a podcast and that sort of thing and then, before they know it, we're working together because they've had enough input from whatever sources were right for them to do it, but it was the book that got them started on the path. \n\nStuart: It's the element, it's one of the elements of that know I can trust. So whether or not they read it, I posted something yesterday. I tweeted out a little essay thing that I wrote saying no one reads anymore. You should write a book, and it just talks about readership rates and how relatively low they are, even for fiction, where the job of work is literally to read. So why would anyone read your book? But the point is that it exists, that you've got it, that there's the opportunity to start conversations. So such a great point. Where can people find out more and make sure that we give people access? Because I've read Clarity and it's the original version, so it's definitely really helps that cut through the noise. So again that if none of the others way worth that way with the time in reading, so where can people go to get copies of all of them? \n\nJamie: So all the books are on Amazon wherever you are. It just, funnily enough, it just hit number one in business development and entrepreneurship in the UK before it's even been released, so that's our fastest number one ever. The Thriving Coach's scorecard is free on our website, so if you go to jamesmartcom, you can download it for free there Though I'm going to be talking to you, Stuart, about getting it paid for on Amazon, so I don't know if I'll keep the free version there. But also we released it on the podcast and stuff like that, the audio version, just because it's a great way of people consuming the information. And then Results Clarity the little book of Results, the little book of Clarity. You can find out about them at Amazon or wherever you get books, and the jamesmartcom has everything. And then I mean all the usual social places at jamesmartcom, so I'm on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and all that stuff. \n\nStuart: Well, I'll make sure to put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, just hit on the most podcast players, play the show notes. Or, if you're following the email, just check out the website. I'll link to the US stores just because it's easy to go from here, but I think Amazon will automatically redirect if you're in a different region, so that'll be the easiest way. And definitely check out jamesmartcom for all things jamesmart. \n\nJamie: Thanks, man, great to see you. \n\nStuart: Great to see you too. It's time to come fast. Thanks again for your time, and then we'll check in less than 10 years in the future. \n\nJamie: Looking forward to it. ","content_html":"Jamie's just updated the Clarity book on its 10 year anniversary, and we had a great chat about what he's learned over that time using the books to grow his business, how he built relationships with future clients, and how his company has developed since creating his first book.
\n\nJamie talks about how he sees the ideas in his books as nurturing a thought with someone and the opportunity to feed them more information to help them grow. We also discussed how a quote he heard on a podcast resonated with the books he's created. It talked about each piece of information you share acting like a greenhouse to nurture relationships with people.
\n\nI really enjoy catching up with Jamie, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how having a book can bring clients to the point where they know they can trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
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(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nWe had a chat with Jamie talking about what he's learned over the last 10 years in using the books in his business, how his business has developed since having the books and what's really come from it. And this idea of using your book as a greenhouse to nurture the relationships with people and how it's a great opportunity to build a rapport. And this idea of getting the clients to the point where they know like and trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you. So great episode. I love talking to Jamie. We've met in person a number of times back in the UK. So with that, let's get to the episode. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. Today we've got, I think, a returning guest. I think, jamie, you've been on this show before. You've definitely been on some of the other shows.
\n\nI've been on shows, that's for sure, yeah definitely been on shows, so people will hopefully recognise the voice, if not the face, because now we've got glorious Technicolor video. So Rob is Rob. I just said Rob off camera. I got Rob in my head. Jamie's here because we're talking about a 10 year relaunch of one of his books and then there's a couple of other books he's gotten stable, so it's a great opportunity to touch base and see how he's been using the various books in the different funnels, what has come from them in something that's now 10 years down the track, which is kind of surprised both of us. So, jamie Smart, why don't you give everyone a quick Jamie Smart catch up if this is their first experience?
\n\nJamie: Got it so okay. So I'm Jamie and I'm a business owner, a coach, a trainer. I teach a lot of coaches, work with businesses, that sort of thing. My kind of niche, if you like, is mindset. So I talk about the principles behind clarity and subtractive psychology, and the basic idea is that you know how most people have a lot on their mind. I mean, you know how most people had a lot on their mind 10 years ago.
\n\nStuart: Well, now, most people really have a lot on their mind.
\n\nJamie: Well, we teach people a simple understanding that takes things off your mind, so you have the confidence and presence and well-being to enjoy your life and do whatever you're here to do. So that's what we're up to, and my first book, clarity, came out 10 years ago. That became a bestseller, followed up by a book called Results, which became a Sunday Times bestseller. But in there I also created a book with Stuart and Dean called well, originally it was called your exponential practice scorecard, so it was aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers. I've changed the name of that about five times and so now it's called the Thriving Coaches Scorecard and we've got the Thriving Coaches Scorecard, the Thriving Coaches Facebook group, the Thriving Coaches podcast, and the idea is that all these things create what I call a greenhouse, which is an idea I got from, and a book is an example of a greenhouse.
\n\nIt's an idea I got from a guy called Chris Tomasulo about a million years ago and he said look, if you want to grow a plant in the desert, you've got to put up a greenhouse and irrigate it. He said well, I heard him say this in like 2003 or 2004,. Right, so early days of the internet. He goes the internet is a desert. No one's ever going to find you there. He says if you want to cultivate relationships in that desert, you need to put up a greenhouse and you need to irrigate it, and that metaphor really struck me, and so I see all these things each book, each podcast, each Facebook group. It is a greenhouse for nurturing and cultivating relationships with people, some of whom are going to want to do business with you.
\n\nNot all of them. Not everyone who reads this book or this book is going to want to do business with me, but some of them will. Some of them will read them and go. Oh my God, I never want to have to deal with this guy.
\n\nStuart: At least it's all collecting yeah yeah, that's cool too.
\n\nJamie: So the idea, what's happened over the last 10 years is I've learned lots about all kinds of things, including marketing and how to use a book and that sort of thing, because, well, you'll know this, stuart, it's kind of funny. When Clarity first came out, I had this kind of idealized vision, which was basically step one the book hits the bookshops. Step two here come the clients, and while there was some of that, it doesn't work like that. It didn't work exactly like that. There were some people who just called. So this was before I started working with you guys. This is like 2013.
\n\nThere were people who would call up, say, hey, I just read the book, I want to book on a program, or they go online or whatever. But it wasn't quite the deluge that I was hoping for, and so what I realized is, while the book is great, the book's a greenhouse, a great way of people building relationship. You also need ways to kind of stay in touch and serve them and take people on a journey which I learned from Dean, which is to basically educate and motivate. The book is a great way of educating and motivating people to the point. Can I tell you my way of understanding it? Yeah for sure.
\n\nWell, my assumption is that there's two things people absolutely have to have before they're going to work with you. This is true as a coach, but it's a change worker, and a trainer, but it's probably true of a pretty much anything. The first thing is they got to have a relationship with you. They got to know you and like you and trust you, and that takes a certain amount of time to build. Now, if someone's going to do eye surgery on you or open heart surgery on you, you probably need quite a bit more knowing and liking and trusting than if they're going to make a sandwich for you, but so it's going to be relevant by degree, not by type.
\n\nStuart: By degree it varies. Yeah, yeah.
\n\nJamie: So, number one, they've got to know you and like you and trust you, and that's going to take some time to build that relationship. But the other thing is they've got to have some problem or want or need or desire that they want to solve and they want your help with. And the thing is an insight for me, which I may have got from you guys or I may have innovated on my own was I realized that at the time someone goes out to solve a problem, almost by definition, they don't know enough about the problem space to come up with a good solution and they don't know enough about the problem space to decide whether you're a good person I help them with it or not. So they need that time of getting to know you, getting to know what matters to them. They need time to get present to what they really need. I found that a book is a great way of getting someone to start that journey and then to take them up.
\n\nStuart: Educate and keep the conversation going. Yeah, exactly the idea that for most of us in the businesses that we're in so professional services business it's not like we're plumbers, where in a plumbing world you're going to have two types of clients those who immediately need something because water is pouring out of the ceiling and those who have got a job somewhere further down the track. So for us, as professional services people, we're mainly in that second group. There's not many of our clients who absolutely categorically need to do this very second. So that, by very definition of the work that we do, means that it's a longer conversion period, it's more relationships-based, because they haven't got that driving need to get it sorted out immediately.
\n\nIt's when it tips that threshold of now's the time, now's my time, now's the time to do it for me. Yes, the people I'm surrounded by, the people I'm invested in, are the ones to do it with and there's a clear and obvious, easy path to move it forward. It's not like it's. Yes, I know that these, yes, I know now's the time for me. Yes, I know that these people are way to do it. But it's difficult and convoluted and cumbersome to get going If we can ease that path by making offers regularly so that when today's the day for them, they can just raise their hand and get started. It's such a difference maker from either building it and hoping they'll come or making people jump through hoops in order to evidence that they're the right clients for you, because you're trying to sift them and select them out or filter them out before they even come through.
\n\nSo that kind of conversation starting book leading to a conversational conversion framework.
\n\nYou're right, there's going to be some people who are just always going to be consumers in the world, but by putting out the same information to all of those people, the ones who are clients are going to be compelled to take the step from that greenhouse, as you describe it. I think it's such a great analogy as well because it's very kind of visual, kind of looking out the window. Here We've got a greenhouse just down in the garden which in January is covered in ice, but in the summer it's a greenhouse. But this idea of nurturing things and nurturing different things, so one greenhouse here, another greenhouse here and another one there, all nurturing different conversations I think that's an easy way for people to understand what it is you're talking about in terms of having these different approaches and the different books help in those, and the different presences, like the podcast and all these ways you've gotten engaging with people, all leading back to the same framework and that framework gives people an easy path to kind of continue that journey.
\n\nJamie: Yeah, well, and even something like an email list looks to me like, or a Twitter feed or something like. That is a greenhouse. There's this you heard of sub-stack, right, there's this couple of guys who write an article a paid article that comes out a couple of times a week on sub-stack and their greenhouse is Twitter. So they're tweeting I don't know a dozen times a day or something and sharing occasional long tweet threads and that sort of thing and giving free previews of the article. But then you go over there and it's really high quality stuff. After a little while of reading their tweets and reading their preview posts, you're like man, this guy knows what he's talking about. I'm in right, or I'm not interested in what this guy's talking about. I'm going to mute them.
\n\nWell, yeah, the thing that strikes me I don't know if this is certainly not unique to my business, but certainly any business where the person's going to be working closely with you my rule of thumb is that before someone's going to sign up to work closely with you, they're probably going to need to spend somewhere between four and eight hours with you, whether that's listening to stuff or reading stuff, or watching videos or reading articles or reading books and a book is a great depending on the length of the book. A great is a great way of getting a chunk of that. If it's a book that they're going to refer to again and again, it's a great. So even if it's a small book, but it's one that they'll keep referring to and dipping into and that sort of thing, it's a great way of building that relationship.
\n\nStuart: It ties into what you were saying about the problem set. Oftentimes they don't understand the problem set A podcast I'm not sure how this is going to fall into the release schedule, so I think it was maybe three weeks ago, as people are listening to this, when it releases. Three weeks ago we recorded a show with Betsy, just touching on the beginning of the year. What suggestions would we make? And one of the key things is just this idea of content in 2023 really being a watershed moment. So it's been a game changer for the last couple of years, but really, I think 2023, with the advent of chat, gdp and the ability to more quickly create a baseline of content, everyone else is going to start jumping on that bandwagon. So if you don't have anything, you're going to get left behind. If you're just doing what everyone else is doing, like the bare minimum AI version, okay, you're going to keep up, but the opportunity is really to add something new.
\n\nSo we were talking about a similar thing in people not understanding the problem set and asking questions that maybe aren't the most relevant questions. So we came up with a quick model that, even if you don't know what to write about, but you think a book is a good idea, then an easy way of creating something is what we've started referring to as the five by five model. So five questions that customers ask and there's easy ways of getting that information. Five questions or five things that they should be asking. So this is you sharing your inside information, and then five action steps, five things that they can take, and then the other two fives to round it out, and all beyond the board.
\n\nBut those, just as you were saying that, them not understanding their problem set, so needing to spend some additional time with you in order to understand exactly where they are and evidence to themselves that you're the right person to help them solve the problem. Breaking those things down I mean, the idea of the five by five book is to quickly and easily create something that's kind of in a subject, but thinking about developing those additional hours. So that book would take I'm not the fastest reader would take an hour to read, okay, so what we're going to do for those other seven hours. Well, each of those 10 elements that we've just identified, there's an hours worth of podcast in each of those elements to drive a little bit deeper. So the ability now to nurture all of those things in the greenhouse from a couple of seed plants but then propagate some other things kind of killing this metaphor a little bit.
\n\nBut maybe it's a death's jerk, go for it. I know that's it. It's a good metaphor. Let's hammer the heck out of it. But it's such an easy thing to do because, like you said, clarity, the whole purpose of that. There's so much going on compared with I was talking to someone again a storytime. I was talking to someone a couple of weeks ago might even have been before Christmas. So I'm 47 now.
\n\nMy first job out of college was in 95. And it really was on 96. But it really wasn't. I can remember being at my first job when we were given email addresses. So I was working before we had email addresses. I think I still had a personal email address because Geeky techie did that personally. But trying to think back to a time when you worked in a job there wasn't constantly interrupted by email, it's almost thinking what were we doing? But clarity, so to take away some of the noise and be able to focus on certain things, this whole framework that we're talking about, of generating this eight hours worth of stuff, of having these opportunities for people to join the funnel at the top, staying in touch with them later, it can seem overwhelming. So to be able to break that down into something that's easy and manageable and unsubject, that's, scope constrained but valuable. I think all of that adds into the clarity of the marketing piece of thinking about this as an approach.
\n\nJamie: I couldn't agree more. The thing that I found like for me, as you'll probably remember, when I did the exponential practice scorecard book, that was at the beginning of sort of experimenting with this stuff and building it out and that sort of thing, and it really helped me to just nail down the book, so that I because then I had to to me in a way and this is maybe a weird way of putting it, but once the book was done, there was a pretty much kind of fix like it was almost like the keystone of everything else that go up. It's kind of funny actually that this might be interesting. So how it strikes me, stuart, is that when I wrote clarity right, so clarity came out in 2013.
\n\nI started writing it in 2011 as part of a kind of promotional exercise. I said to my audience so I got a bunch of people on my email list I said I'm going to write a book, I'll send you a chapter a week. Here it goes. So I wrote that and then over time, you know, ended up getting into bookstores in 2013.
\n\nBut what I didn't realize was that this book was like a seed that was getting planted in the ground and what grew out of it is the whole business that I have today. So I've got the clarity certification training, the clarity events, training that all the my girlfriend and I are kicking off a program this weekend called the Clarity Professional Program. So that kind of that book was a keystone for the whole business. The what is now the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book is a keystone for that particular aspect of our business teaching coaches how to build a thriving practice. And the thing that suddenly struck me the new edition of Clarity is coming out literally end of this month as we record, so end of January is the 10th anniversary edition. And what suddenly struck me earlier last year was that that's a new seed that I'm planting in the ground and something new is going to grow from that. And some of it's going to be the same stuff I've already got, just, you know, re-energized by the new book and all that sort of thing. But some of it's going to be new stuff because, of course, I'm in a different place and it's a different book and the audience is in a different place. So it's really cool. But here's the other thing related to that might be interesting from what can you do with a book? So after a few years, what's?
\n\nA lot of people have read your book, a lot of people who are connected to you, so I don't know. A bunch of people in the world have read my books, but only a relatively small number of those are within my close greenhouse, like they're seeing my Facebook messages, they're reading my emails, that sort of thing. A bunch of people read the book. It's on their bookshelf. They never heard from me again, that kind of thing.
\n\nBut there are a bunch of people who are kind of in my world, so to speak, and those are the people who are also my best clients, the most likely people to do business with me again when they need help with something and that sort of thing. So those are the people who we've cultivated relationship with over the years. So we're getting ready for the new edition to launch and my publishers emailed me last week. They said oh, jamie, I'm sure you haven't forgotten this, but you need to do pre-orders on Amazon now. Basically, you need a bunch of people to go in pre-order from Amazon to get the book. I was like I had forgotten, so I'm like oh, what am.
\n\nI going to do so. I go onto Facebook and I say hey guys, 10th anniversary edition of Clarity is coming out. I need your help. We've got to do pre-orders, and here's why. But here's the thing I'm not trying to get a best seller here. I just want people who are going to read the book, because I know if you read the book, it's going to make a difference to you. So if you really want to read the book, you can be one of the first people to get a copy of it. Just go to Amazon and place your pre-order and it'll be the first ones that get mailed out on 20th anniversary.
\n\nWell, hundreds of people. It's like send one to me, send one to me. Send one because they want to be part of it. Because they're not? Yes, I'd like to think they're doing it because it's going to be such a great group book. But here's the thing that people may miss. A big part of why they want to do it is they want to help you out, especially when you're talking about content. If people are connected with a content creator and enjoying their content and like what they're saying, like where they're coming from, like their perspective on the world, they want you to do well Because, for a bunch of reasons A, they're nice, they care about you, it endorses the fact that they're buying into your view of the world as well, so it's all good. So to me, the book is this keystone that allows all those relationships to grow from it. So it's really cool.
\n\nStuart: It's an interesting asset and I say to people a lot that 90-minute books is a marketing company. It just happens that books is the most effective way of achieving what we're trying to achieve. So it's unclear how long this psychological element will continue, but there's definitely a disproportionate psychological advantage of having a book. I just recorded a podcast yesterday with Rob Legenhausen, who's a financial planner like a wealth management firm. So they've written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, because a lot of their work is specifically around dividends rather than portfolio work or ETFs, mutual funds so that's their perspective. So he's had a book for a couple of months now.
\n\nHe was saying the majority of his clients are slightly older than us and those people are very keyed into. Well, he was saying I don't know whether it's just because those people are slightly older and they come from an old publishing mentality. So if he was talking with 18 year olds it might not be the same. But just physically, having the book is a game changer. It stops people in their tracks, there's an authority around it and it builds that community much more than a newsletter does or an email does, even though the content is still effectively the same thing. It's worked on a page, but the psychology around it is still different.
\n\nJamie: It really is, I think. Well, it may be different to 18 year olds and things. The things that strikes me, stuart, is that books are lindy, like books have been around for I don't know when was the printing press the 1600s, the 1500s? So books have been around about 500 years. Iphones have been around about 14 years. So books are way more lindy than iPhones. So books are way more lindy than Kindles. Now, kindles is a really useful way to consume information, but there's a way in which books are kind of magical objects, and I don't mean that in a woo woo way. I mean it's just like a deck of cards or I don't know. Ok, I've got books and decks of cards. They have a certain totemic quality to them Basically.
\n\nEven the word author is like the root of the word authority. So there's, they imbue a certain amount of authority and credibility.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, we were talking on. I can't. This year has been a strange year in the sense that it's there's been so many people have reached out so I've for years I've offered like strategy calls out there Just say hey, because I love talking about this type of thing, as you can tell from the podcast. So I pretty much always offered strategy calls but not that many people have picked up on them, so I can't actually tell. At the end of last year people might have noticed, but at the end of last year I made a commitment to be more front of camera facing, like broadcasting more of our stuff. But for 10 years we've kind of run it in the background but not really overly publicized it or talked about it that much, because it doesn't come naturally to me. I don't. If I'm thinking about doing something, I'm thinking about fixing the problem or doing something behind the scenes, not publishing something out front. So anyway, towards the end of the year I made a commitment to change that a little bit. So it might be partly that might be other factors.
\n\nBut talking on strategy calls about this idea of of authoring, the idea not writing a book. So writing a book is a technical element which is a headache and pain in the neck, and that's why 90 minute books exist, because we tried to say the writing element away from it, because that's not the important piece. The important piece is being the author of an idea, and you can be the author of an idea on Twitter or in a book or on a video, but it's the shaming ideas which is the main thing. The functionality or the process of doing the book is almost secondary. Yes, end up with a product, but again that idea out there. It's a big difference.
\n\nJamie: I can tell you a real, I can give you a real time example that has happened on this call. When you said, oh yeah, my last guest was Rob, who's written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, I mean immediately went I get it. I need to speak to Rob, right Done, like just you telling me the title of his book. Now here's the thing, but here's the thing that people made. Here's the thing that looks so amazing about that to me.
\n\nRob didn't come to you and say I want to write a book called the. I mean, he may have, but my assertion is, if Rob's like almost every author, he came to you and said I want to write a book called those 17 ways to do X, y and Z. And you guys were like you know what, rob? I think there may be an even better title out there. Let's see if we can find it. And what he's got with the Dividend Lifestyle is a title that for the right people and I'm one of them they're like I get it. I need to have a conversation with that man. Done Right, yeah, like that's powerful. Now, my guess is that I did that. Behind it will have existed that phrase the Dividend Lifestyle may well not have existed if it wasn't for Rob going through the process Right.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's so funny. I mean the one of the reasons we? Well, there's two reasons for switching the setup of this show to be more focused on individuals and their books, and whether they've written them with us or not, it doesn't matter, it's just the idea of getting the book out there, more focused in the conversation, starting books rather than the traditional books, because that's really what we're encouraging people to do. But still, users or not doesn't matter, just get the damn thing out there. But one of the reasons for one of the other reasons for switching is because we spent 100 episodes kind of retelling the same story, kind of hammering home the same points, and after 100 episodes you kind of think I've been here before, but once transpired in the last, I think we're. Maybe this is the eighth or ninth one of this type that we've done, but still the same message comes through. But it's so much more contextual or real, having a conversation about it rather than just trying to educate about it. Because the ideas that we've got in the book blueprint, scorecard, the framework book, the eight mindsets that talk about the choosing a single target market, a title that resonates and amplifying sub-adding, minimum, viable commitment calls to action, to make it easy to take the next steps. And then, looking at the internal parts, the purposeful outline, so it guides people. Something where value-driven content, so you're giving people value in the content, you're not trying to bait and switch them into a meeting.
\n\nThe beneficial constraints, which is one that no one thinks about. What without constraints? Because we're all business owners listening to this, no one. We've set our lives up specifically that we haven't got people telling us what to do. But the downside to that is three years later, five years later, we still haven't done the thing. So the idea of beneficial constraints. And then, beyond the book, how are we going to actually use it? To put it in a greenhouse, to amplify it, and not just build it? And they will come so to be able to have these real-life examples and not just teach. I mean, hopefully people are getting much more value than just listening to me, benny Betze, hear every week about why you should do it. I'm sure this tangent was going somewhere, but I've lost the thought.
\n\nJamie: Well, I tell you what I get there's a bunch of things I get from it, which is that, among other things, obviously this podcast is also a greenhouse. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with you. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with your guests, so there's a win-win there. But here's the other thing that strikes me. Stuart, like I think, you and I first met on the first breakthrough blueprint that Dean did in London that I came on, which must be, I'm going to say, like 10 years ago nearly nine years ago, something like that.
\n\nStuart: Time goes fast.
\n\nJamie: Well, so I've done a certain amount of business with you guys, right, but not like millions of dollars. I've been spent millions of dollars with you, but we got a great relationship and like I. So this is an offer, also an opportunity to continue developing that relationship. Like you told me, oh yeah, we're hoping to do a breakthrough blueprint in London. So I'm like man, yeah, it's about time I'd like to go on that again. You know all that sort of stuff, right, so it's all part of it. It's an opportunity for people to. I once heard Alex Mandozian put it brilliantly. He said he wants people to turn up the volume or change the channel. So it's like so it's not about making something that everyone's going to like, it's that you're creating something that people are going to learn from and build that relationship, and yeah.
\n\nStuart: I just think it's great One of the interesting things and want to be respectful of your time because I can talk for far too long, unlike me, right. Like I know this could be a long episode for people listening. Just get some. We're both drinking, so get some coffee and buckle in. One of the things, though that's interesting, you were talking about the framework and turn up the volume or change the channel. That's such a clear message that I think the majority of people can take.
\n\nSo the conversations that we have with people, two things happen all the time. One I first thought about this years ago and we've had a conversation with you years ago and still haven't done it. So that's the first thing, the kind of get off the fence and just do it, don't overthink it, it could be done by now. And the second one is this idea of a framework. So a lot of people will come thinking about the book as a broad thing. They're scared about choosing the single target market because most businesses can do five things at least and they don't want to double down. And that makes it difficult for people to turn up the volume because they're never sure about what they're going to get. It's kind of like TV channels or podcasts. You pretty much can understand this podcast is never going to talk about relationships or technology, because we're talking about books as a marketing tool. So there's a clarity around that, the framework. So again, the conversation with Rob from yesterday is clear my head because it was just today. But the dividend lifestyle I was asking him what they do as an onboarding process for clients and how can they bridge what they're already doing into a framework that uses the dividend lifestyle names. So, just like you were talking about in the clarity framework, you've got a whole world surrounding this. Now, the opportunity to name it and claim it around a framework just gives people commonality of language and I think that helps build rapport and helps build the relationship because you're all you're talking about a known set of language.
\n\nBack in my corporate IT days there's a whole load of acronyms and terms and frameworks and models that people use in the business and it's almost a little bit exclusionary. We talked about this with the financial advisors and the lawyer type clients that we have. There's a risk of the language being exclusionary if it's talked about in a certain way, but there's the opportunity for a framework to be inclusionary. That's even a word. I've been in America too long and making up words. Inclusive, that's the obvious word and there's the opportunity for the framework to be inclusive because you can build a structure around things. So you were talking about having worked in our world, in Deans world, for coming up on 10 years now. The B3B looping framework is a language that we can use to bring it all together. So that's really an interesting insight from some of the conversations in the last few days of building that rapport and kind of feeding the plants in the greenhouse.
\n\nJamie: Well, the thing I appreciate about the framework you guys use in Breakthrough Blueprint and I think this is the thing that really strikes me is it's a framework that, as soon as I learned it as soon as it took a little while, because it's like seeing something going on, it's like seeing something that's already there, but that's the thing I loved about it it got me closer to the reality of what's already going on.
\n\nAnd the thing I love about that framework is that it simplifies things by getting you closer to reality. So it's not an abstract concept or idea. It's not even a prescriptive framework. It's a descriptive framework. It's describing something that's already true, that's already at play in every business, and that's what made it so powerful. It's what I've done with the book Clarity as well. I've tried to make it purely descriptive, so it gets you closer to something that's already going on for you in your business, in your relationships, in your mind, because if you can make a framework that works like that, it's going to unleash so much power for people, and I think that's what you guys have done with Breakthrough Blueprint or Breakthrough.
\n\nStuart: BNN. Yeah, and the same with the book scorecards and the same with all of the ones where we have a Well, I could hear it in the book scorecard.
\n\nJamie: I could hear some of the. I was sensing it already. Sorry to interrupt.
\n\nStuart: No, well, just as you were saying, trying to keep it so that it's easy to understand and universally applicable, and it just changes by a degree. So just jumping back to the we're kind of wrapping up now. Jumping back to the three books that you've got. So Clarity's, on its 10th anniversary revision Results, is there, and the Thrive Framework one. Those three are they part of? What's the best way of saying this? They're obviously all part of the same thing, because they're all part of your world and how you help people, but do they the way that you use them? I'm just trying to bridge this for other people who are listening, who don't have any books yet and can might feel overwhelmed by the idea of having one. That alone. Three Do you use them in quite different ways? Are they addressing different markets or do they build on each other? Good question, they're thematically very similar.
\n\nJamie: Okay, so in reverse order, the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book, aka the Exponential Practice Scorecard, aka the profitable Coaches Scorecard, that specifically aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers, people who are looking to build a thriving business doing the work that they're passionate about in terms of helping other people out. So coaches, therapists, change workers, that sort of thing. Now there's a special sweet spot, which is it's leveraging all of the stuff from this book and this book for a very specific outcome. So in every single one of those steps it turns out that the main thing that for that audience specifically, who traditionally hate selling, hate marketing, anything like that, it's showing how understanding the principles behind clarity can turn selling from being a icky, manipulative that sort of thing to actually being heartfelt, connective relationship, enhancing all that sort of stuff. So it's leveraging the stuff from these books in a specific application. You could say. So the application is building a thriving coaching business as an application of the principles in these books.
\n\nThe book clarity, which is the first one, is the most general of all the books, so it's for any one. So we've had everyone from business owners to charity leaders, to prison inmates, to people in recovery centers, to army veterans. I did a talk on this stuff at the NATO Defense College in Rome last summer. We've had people from all walks of life reading clarity, writing to us about. It sold about 70,000 copies so far, so it's our most general book. And then results is a. All the books are what I term as business-friendly personal development. Results is a more business. Your mom could read clarity and go. That was lovely. Results is a more business-focused out coding of the principles behind clarity.
\n\nSo it's working on the same kind of More, kind of actionable.
\n\nStuart: Yeah.
\n\nJamie: So I think of it as being three elements. There's what I call grounding, which is kind of the mindset piece. There's impact, which is the difference you make to people, and then there's leverage, which is how you get paid for it, so it's who you're being, what you're doing and how you're making the cash register ring. So results is divided into those three sections, and so is the thriving coaches scorecard book, because it's a more business-friendly coding, whereas clarity isn't. Clarity is all about you and your mind and your relationships and stuff.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it's interesting the different perspectives and the different use cases for it. So, going into clarity again, we're a nine-minute book audience, so most of the people listening are thinking about it more specifically in terms of that single target market and the marketing piece. So clarity is coming from that broader perspective. It's almost like Very general.
\n\nYeah, yeah. Sometimes we refer to them as manifesto books, although again, we usually talk about smaller books, but introducing that topic, but the way that they build together, I think, whether you're, as you're listening to this, whether or watching this, as you're thinking about the book to go out, there is definitely the fixing and solving a problem which is very specific. Here's what you should know, almost like the how-to type book, this idea of a manifesto book as well. Introducing an idea obviously you don't need to. It doesn't have to be as big or as broad as clarity. That's a substantial, what we would call a traditional book.
\n\nBut the idea of introducing that idea, even if it's just positioning your way of thinking out in the world and kind of planting a flag and, just as you said, you don't know what's then going to grow from it, even if you don't have a very clear strategy for the marketing. Very specifically, from the book to an auto responder, to a flagship broadcast, to an offer, even if that's not in place. Again, going back to that idea that 2023 is really going to be a watershed moment for content, naming and claiming that and getting it, planting a flag out there, and then who knows what will come from it. If nothing else, I think that's worthwhile for people who are listening to this and on the fence.
\n\nJamie: I think that makes a lot of sense and you guys do that right. You'll help people write a manifesto book. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense because, as much as anything, one of the things that clarity has done for my business is it's one of the biggest jobs it's done is as a positioning tool. It's positioned, it's basically said this is what the understanding is, this is what it is, this is what it is and here's who it's for, here's who it can help. All that sort of stuff and a lot of this will resonate with you.
\n\nI'm sure, stuart, a lot of people when I meet them, they go oh I wanted to work with you, that sort of thing. I bought your book. I didn't actually read it. They're still working with me because they bought the book, because that was the first step, and then they listened to a podcast and that sort of thing and then, before they know it, we're working together because they've had enough input from whatever sources were right for them to do it, but it was the book that got them started on the path.
\n\nStuart: It's the element, it's one of the elements of that know I can trust. So whether or not they read it, I posted something yesterday. I tweeted out a little essay thing that I wrote saying no one reads anymore. You should write a book, and it just talks about readership rates and how relatively low they are, even for fiction, where the job of work is literally to read. So why would anyone read your book? But the point is that it exists, that you've got it, that there's the opportunity to start conversations. So such a great point. Where can people find out more and make sure that we give people access? Because I've read Clarity and it's the original version, so it's definitely really helps that cut through the noise. So again that if none of the others way worth that way with the time in reading, so where can people go to get copies of all of them?
\n\nJamie: So all the books are on Amazon wherever you are. It just, funnily enough, it just hit number one in business development and entrepreneurship in the UK before it's even been released, so that's our fastest number one ever. The Thriving Coach's scorecard is free on our website, so if you go to jamesmartcom, you can download it for free there Though I'm going to be talking to you, Stuart, about getting it paid for on Amazon, so I don't know if I'll keep the free version there. But also we released it on the podcast and stuff like that, the audio version, just because it's a great way of people consuming the information. And then Results Clarity the little book of Results, the little book of Clarity. You can find out about them at Amazon or wherever you get books, and the jamesmartcom has everything. And then I mean all the usual social places at jamesmartcom, so I'm on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and all that stuff.
\n\nStuart: Well, I'll make sure to put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, just hit on the most podcast players, play the show notes. Or, if you're following the email, just check out the website. I'll link to the US stores just because it's easy to go from here, but I think Amazon will automatically redirect if you're in a different region, so that'll be the easiest way. And definitely check out jamesmartcom for all things jamesmart.
\n\nJamie: Thanks, man, great to see you.
\n\nStuart: Great to see you too. It's time to come fast. Thanks again for your time, and then we'll check in less than 10 years in the future.
\n\nJamie: Looking forward to it.
","summary":"Welcome to another episode of the Book More Show. Today we've got a great interview with Jamie Smart. Jamie's the author of three books, one with us, and two traditional books. The first clarity is actually coming up for its 10-year anniversary. We've met in person a number of times, back in the UK. \r\n\r\nToday on the Book More Show, we're with Jamie Smart, author of three books and creator of Clarity, a system that helps coaches develop, make a real difference to others, and grow their businesses.\r\n\r\nJamie's just updated the Clarity book on its 10 year anniversary, and we had a great chat about what he's learned over that time using the books to grow his business, how he built relationships with future clients, and how his company has developed since creating his first book.\r\n\r\nJamie talks about how he sees the ideas in his books as nurturing a thought with someone and the opportunity to feed them more information to help them grow. We also discussed how a quote he heard on a podcast resonated with the books he's created. It talked about each piece of information you share acting like a greenhouse to nurture relationships with people.\r\n\r\nI really enjoy catching up with Jamie, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how having a book can bring clients to the point where they know they can trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you\r\n\r\nWe had a chat with Jamie about what he's learned over 10 years about using the books in his business, how he developed relationships and how his company has developed since having the books, and what's really come from that. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nWe also discuss this idea of using your book as a greenhouse to nurture relationships with people and how it's an excellent opportunity to build rapport. This is a great episode about how having a book can get clients to the point where they know they can trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you. ","date_published":"2023-01-22T10:00:00.000-05:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/d68dff0b-fa49-4629-abba-f11f7e2088d0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":30469791,"duration_in_seconds":2473}]},{"id":"8d380a97-0241-4ec8-b10e-8b97d989c3d9","title":"Ep126: Instant Credibility with Rob Legenhausen","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/126","content_text":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Rob Legenhausen, a financial advisor and author of The Dividend Lifestyle, from College Park in Orlando, Florida.\n\nWe had a great conversation about what brought him to write his book, his unique approach, and why that creates the perfect runway to identify potential clients and bring them into his world.\n\nRob also described the instant credibility his book provides with both clients and prospects. Just having a book changes the conversation, as it reinforces what he tells people, and they are more responsive to the author of these ideas.\n\nIt was great to hear this first-hand experience of a book amplifying the work you're already doing.\n\n\nLINKS\nShow notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/126\nHow does your book idea score: Book Blueprint Scorecard\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nAbout Rob\nThe Dividend Lifestyle\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Rob Legenhausen, a financial advisor and author of The Dividend Lifestyle, from College Park in Orlando, Florida.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about what brought him to write his book, his unique approach, and why that creates the perfect runway to identify potential clients and bring them into his world.
\n\nRob also described the instant credibility his book provides with both clients and prospects. Just having a book changes the conversation, as it reinforces what he tells people, and they are more responsive to the author of these ideas.
\n\nIt was great to hear this first-hand experience of a book amplifying the work you're already doing.
\n\nAbout Rob
\nThe Dividend Lifestyle
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Today on the Book More Show, I caught up with Betsey Vaughn to talk about the year ahead.
\n\nWe live in interesting times, and it really seems like this is going to be a watershed year to take the lead in your business and create the content that lets people know who you are, starts to build a rapport with future clients, and gives them the opportunity to begin working with you.
\n\nTechnology is making creating content easier and easier, but the process and knowing what to write about is still a stumbling block. Ai tools like Chat GPT are now starting to remove that barrier too. This means that we're likely to see a huge increase in the amount of 'Ok' Ai content. It will be mediocre and lacking an opinion, but other people in your industry looking for an easy solution will lead the charge in putting it out there.
\n\nIn this show, we're looking for the opportunity. These tools will be great to help you speed up the research and collect all the information you need to add to and round out your knowledge and opinions, and create something that starts conversations.
\n\nWe wrap up with a simple, step-by-step plan to get a book and follow-up sequence created, even if you don't know what to write about.
\n\nThe content army is coming, so now is really the time to get off the fence and take a stand.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're following up on the book launch episode I recorded a few weeks ago with Rich Bontrager.
\n\nWe often talk about using your book as an optin 'cookie' in return for email addresses, but there's also an opportunity to engage with the people who already know, like, and trust you and build your authority by doing a book release party.
\n\nIt was great fun and something I'm glad Rich facilitated, as I definitely needed help making sure it happened.
\n\nThe Book Blueprint Framework is hugely valuable to anyone wanting to write a conversation-starting book and the event was a fantastic opportunity to hear from some of the people it's helped and share it with new people. The recording is also something we can use in our marketing in the future.
\n\nSo today, Rich and I caught up to talk about how it worked, what I got from it initially, and talk about ways you can make the most of doing a book release for your book.
\n\nIt was a great conversation, and you can follow along with the ways I'm using the book on my [LinkedIn](www.linkedin.com/in/mrstuartbell), and find out more about doing your book release with Rich here or email him directly at rich@richbontreger.net.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Bill Bloom, a Chicago-based financial advisor, author of several books, and genius behind 'Retire as You Desire.'
\n\nWe've spoken with Bill before, so it's great to check back in and see how his world has really expanded since writing the books and what the Retire as You Desire platform has developed into.
\n\nBill is passionate about helping people make a plan that supports the retirement they want, and he talks about the conversations his books have started, how he thought of his books in the first place, and how he views books as the world's greatest business card.
\n\nThis is a great show with someone who has really run with the idea of using a book to build their business.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes & Video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/123
\nRetire As You Desire | YouTube | Podcast
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking to author & owner of Virtualdoo, an Australian-based fractional COO company, Lloyd Thompson.
\n\nLloyd recently finished a great book, ' 9-Ways to Leave Your Day-to-Day Operations', an introduction to the idea that companies of all sizes can benefit from operational improvements.
\n\nWe talked about how he's using his book to start conversations, leading people toward working with you, and what he did to hit an Amazon best-seller list.
\n\nLloyd has an enthusiastic outlook that's contagious, and his experience in writing a book is a reminder we can all share our knowledge in a way that helps others.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes & Video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/122
\nVirtualDOO
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Rich Bontrager, media and TV coach and owner of Rock the Stage Media, about the benefits of a book launch party!
\n\nPre-pandemic, Rich spent a lot of time working with authors to better prepare for book launch events and traditional TV coverage. Of course, during the various lockdowns, these in-person events were few and far between, but he saw a huge increase in people's online opportunities.
\n\nWe usually focus on the direct response opportunities of having a book, but the chance to create excitement and engagement around your book launch (or re-launch) has great potential to start conversations.
\n\nThis is a great interview about how you can use a book launch party to amplify your message and create assets that reinforce your authority.
\n\nWe're also going to use the Book Blueprint Scorecard book as an example over the next few weeks, so follow me on Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/mrstuartbell to see how a launch can work for you.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Welcome to the Book More Show, I'm Stuart Bell & today Dean & I got to catch up at the studio to talk about why you need a conversation starting book.
\n\nThere are some great insights in this one.
\n\nOver the last week I saw 3 people talk at conferences about using a book to build your business, but they were all talking about traditional publishing.
\n\nWe know the cost & overhead of going that route is unnecessary for 98% of business owners.
\n\nIt's expensive and takes far too long, when the benefit for most of us, the job of work of a book is to start a conversation with people most likely to become client in the future.
\n\nThis is a great episode looking at the real benefits of a book without getting caught up in the waste of traditional publishing.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Today on the Book More Show we're talking with author and financial advisor, Jonathan Schultheiss, about the success he's had using his book.
\n\nJonathon has a really interesting back story to the way he created his book and how he's usingi it.
\n\nThe book is based on the way he helps employees maximize their 401k, but his clients, the people who pay him are the company HR and Financial Managers. So rather than lead generation in the traditional sense, he uses his book as a differentiator when talking to these executives. Many people are pitching 401k management, but others can't demonstrate the value they add to the employees.
\n\nHis framework is core to his whole approach and it's developed to be more than just the book. It's a simple framework to help people become the 401k superhero to their families.
\n\nJonathon's a great guy & his passion for helping people really comes across. He has some great advice for creating something you can refine and develop over time.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
Today on the Book More Show, we answer the question of what to write when you don't know what to write!
\n\nNovember is NaNoWriMo, a long-running organization that helps fiction writers complete their novels through November by providing support, resources and a framework.
\n\nIf you have a great idea but struggle to complete it, their step-by-step guidance dramatically increases the likelihood of getting it done.
\n\nLikewise, if you have the idea a book is a great tool to help build your business but struggle to decide what to write, then our 5by5 Method is the perfect way for you to create a compelling book that leads people toward working with you.
\n\nCheck the show notes for the steps to create your 5by5 book.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
We get more questions about book titles than almost any other subject.
\n\nIt makes sense - Your book title is the thing that stops someone doing whatever they were doing long enough to think, 'I want that...'
\n\nToday on the podcast I want to share the video I recorded for Mindset 2 of our Book Blueprint Scorecard: Choosing a Title That Resonates, where I run through 5 book title formulas that help you create something that compels people to get a copy.
\n\nBeing in conversation with those pre-disposed to work with you is the secret to a valuable email list, and offering a copy of your book is the perfect start to this journey.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nWe are going to dive into Mindset 2, picking a title that resonates. Now, mindset 1 was all about picking that target audience and the first element of that was the job to work, understanding what we want the book to do. So that helps inform the title, because what we want to do is get people to stop when they see the title and it triggers within them and I want that response. So you can think of the title as the headline of an ad or the headline of an article. It's the thing that stops them in the track. It's results and outcomes focused so that people, when they're thinking about a challenge that they've got, when they're searching for it, when they're in an environment where your message can resonate with them. So we've matched up the message that we're trying to put out there with the problem that they've got. Then the title of your book is the thing that stops people in their tracks and says, ah, I want that. So let's dive into this exercise, this overview the idea of the title being a headline is a much better way of thinking about your book title than perhaps a traditional book.
\n\nWe've been doing this now for a number of years. We've, as I said, the welcome video. We've found over 800 books get created. So, as you can imagine, we've seen a lot of title options and people coming with various ideas about what they want their title to be. There was a spate a couple of years ago of people wanting to ensure obscure one word titles that I can best describe as people trying to be clever. It kind of mirrored something that was happening in the traditional publishing world. So I think that's where people will get in the idea from. But the problem is that it doesn't do what it says in the tin. If someone sees that book title going past, it doesn't make people stop in their tracks and say I want that because they don't understand what it is. The problem, I think, comes down to people not thinking about a 90-minute book, a book for a specific purpose, in the same way as they would a traditional book.
\n\nA traditional book is usually there for entertainment. People are in bookshops. They're browsing shelves. They're looking on Amazon and browsing the shelves there they're seeing celebrity names or names that they recognize and a clever short title. That my kind of engenderer. I wonder what that is. Response is very different from I want that.
\n\nFor us, we're talking about creating a book that moves people towards an outcome, that has a specific job of work. What we want is the. I want that response, not necessarily the. I wonder what that is. Because that's to. We're not looking to entertain people With the best one in the world. We're looking for it to be informative and move people forward and help people to take the next step, not to entertain them. If we're looking to create a traditional book, a storybook, then this framework isn't necessarily the best fit, or obviously you can use elements of it to inform it. Our focus is a job of work, moving people forward.
\n\nWhat we want is the title to be more like the banner headline in and out Google ads, facebook ads, blog posts headlines, newspaper headlines. We want it to be short and obvious. We want it to be clear. As I said before, we want it to do what it says on the tin, which is a throwback to an old commercial in the UK. We want it to be based on that job of work that we've defined in Mindset One and resonate with the audience that we defined in Mindset One. Thinking about it in that way makes much more sense. It's much easier to think about it as a headline than as something that's clever and will get people talking, because people aren't going to be talking about your book because you're not a New York Times bestseller. That's not what we're trying to do here. What you want is them say I want that outcome. That response that we're trying to trigger in people is the recognition. We're trying to match the language that they've got, the promise that they're having the thing that they're trying to resolve, with the thing that you're offering.
\n\nAttention is short and, depending on where you're advertising, it's quite possible that you're going to be running Facebook ads or ads in places that aren't based on intention search. So let's look at that for a second. Intentional search are things like Google, where people are looking, searching for a specific thing. That's not necessarily the same, or not at all the same, as ads that pass by in social streams, so like Facebook or LinkedIn or Twitter or forums or chat areas, chat spaces, communities that you're in. What you need to do is interrupt their pattern and match with the thought that they're having, rather than answer a specific question that they're searching for. Now, obviously, depending on where you're running ads, both of them are served by the idea of a headline title as opposed to a I wonder what that is title, but you're really trying to trigger that response and match it with the language, capture the attention of people who are passing by enough for it to be a feed stopper that we sometimes refer to as that idea of it being a feed stopper is served by using the language that we identified in mindset number one.
\n\nThe other thing that we want to do is focus on benefits and our features. This is a marketing terminology or a frame of mind that you'll probably heard of. Before describing the outcome and what people will get from something, the kind of experiential language as opposed to just numbers or features or a list of a list of inside mechanisms rather than outside mechanisms, it's going to resonate with people more so. One obvious example these days is Apple's marketing. Many people are aware of Apple's marketing campaigns and how it's very much emotional and feelings-based and experiential, as opposed to an old PC manufacturer where they're just listing the features of the graphics card or the size of the memory or the number of ports that it's got. That type of emotional engagement is what we're looking to do, because we're looking for that feed stopper response.
\n\nThe other way of thinking about it is solutions are better than problems. So what we're trying to do is lead people to the outcome. We're trying to remind people that there is a solution to their problem. So focusing the title on the end result, the positive, beneficial outcome, the benefits that they get, rather than the features, is much better than focusing on the pain and the problems. Now there is an element of marketing that says that fear of missing out or fear of losing something is more of a driver than a potential outcome. But I don't necessarily believe that. For a start, and depending on what your marketing, what your market is, that definitely could be more of the case. So it's worth thinking about. But generally speaking, from a experiential and positivity and outcome and moving forward perspective, people much more likely to engage with that light at the end of the tunnel rather than a fear-based approach of you'll have a very bad outcome unless you read this. So obviously it's not one-times-fits-all answer. There is some elements of it, that's true but as a general approach, much better to focus on that positive outcome and the success that they'll get, the end result of the thing that they're looking for, rather than the nuts and bolts of the detail of the pain that they're trying to avoid, because we're trying to help people move forward at the end of the day.
\n\nThe feed stopper test I've touched on already. But it really is this idea of a lot of the advertising, a lot of the places that you're going to put your book, when you think about all of the opportunities you've got to share the message. It's not necessarily in the intentional search Google space where someone's searching for an answer. It's much more likely to be in the soft reference type area of someone's Facebook feed, something, an article, something, in LinkedIn referral campaigns, of passing this information to someone else, all of these things. It's not that the person, the recipient, is looking for the answer, necessarily, but the language that they use when they're in an area where they are talking about their problem or they know that they've got a problem to fix. We're really trying to interrupt that, which then, also by virtue of the fact that we're using positive language and we're describing it. It does what it says on the tin. If they are intentionally searching for something and they do find the book that we've written, then it answers that question as well. So coming to it from a Interrupt perspective rather than a search perspective is the more beneficial way of doing it.
\n\nOkay, so we're going to dive now into the five book title types that we're typically talking about. So again, over all of our experience, we've identified five types that really resonate with people, and it's a great way of thinking about categorizing your book into one of these five types. The first one is the kind of name it and claim it idea. Now, this is very much defined as a kind of a manifesto book. It's introducing the idea and it's allowing you to own the category. So some of the examples, some of the popular examples We've picked some here that you've probably heard of before. So Dave Ramsey's financial piece financial piece sits, names it and claims it in that term, like before our work week, those terms and claim that bit of the industry, claim that, that framework for themselves. The same with the 90-minute book. That's the terminology that didn't exist before. It's something that we've claimed and own for this particular Approach that we've got. So you might have the same. You might want to have a framework and methodology that you can build a lot of the rest of the funnel around that names it and claims it.
\n\nThe second one that we talk about is the just do it. So this is more Instructional. It gives people an idea of the benefit, of the outcome of a solution which is just very specific do this, so think and grow rich, stop your divorce, w dating. These are all very much just do it titles, because you're instructing someone in the outcome that they'll get if they read the book and take the advice that's in it. So the third is then how to? So this is Super obvious, both in terms of the definition and the words that are on the title. So these are very much Solutions focused ones. It's how to do a certain thing.
\n\nSo this is for the mindset of people who their problem, their challenge, is a name, a named thing, something that they would recognize. So how to win friends and influence people, how to get listings, how to be the best barefoot skill on your lake, all of those things resonate with those people who already understand that language. So the book that you're thinking of my well-fitting to that category. If it's very specific language that you're trying to fix, this example is probably more of a narrow outcome than than some of the broader. Certainly, the name and claimant manifesto book is pretty broad, but whereas this is trying to much more narrowly fix narrowly fix their problem.
\n\nSo number four this is a great one if you have access to the data that allows you to do this, because it's very Timely and specific, is very mutually charged. You're presenting data to people. It's not opinion. Obviously, you might add opinion to it, but it's very much when people are in an information gathering stage, this seems like independent information. It will help them move forward. So some of the examples here the 2021 Social Security Guide, 2021 guides, us hockey scholarships. 2021 guide to wind tavern, lakefront house practices All of these books are these, these particular ones.
\n\nSo these are all ones that we've worked with people on to dial in that particular access to information that they've got, presenting it in a way that the audience is gonna Resonate because they understand what is and they'll get value from it, because it's seen as presenting kind of charge, neutral, independent information, with then a close and a call to action of the next step to take. So, people, if you have got access to this information and you can package it in a certain way, then people resonate with this because it really moves their journey forward. This is much more of a. This very obviously works, sits in as a slightly more on a conversion tool, if you think back to mindset one we were talking about, where the types of books, the job of work, this type of book can work for work very well as a conversion tool because you're not introducing a new idea. They're aware of it already, but you're moving them forward, presenting data to them, which Is kind of self evidently moving them towards your call to action.
\n\nSo the fifth is question magnets. Now, these are a great opportunity to write something if you don't necessarily have your own framework, so you're not trying to name it and claim it. If you don't have a lot of access to proprietary data, if the industry that you're working on isn't really a data driven Area, so you're not providing a guide to people, you're not correlating and bringing together a lot of information in an easy to consume way, but this is answering questions that they might have, things that are pressing on their mind In the area that you're trying to help them. So what to expect when you're expecting hugely successful book for anyone in the maternity space? That question is on everyone's mind. How much is enough? Another fantastic question that's on the mind of everyone that's thinking about retirement, whether they're approaching retirement or whether they're in the early stages of planning. That question is something that's going to be. It's going to be a very early question in people's minds as they're thinking about doing something, not necessarily early in the overall process, but early in thinking about doing something.
\n\nWhat to do after dental school another fantastic example of something that is very specifically on people's minds. It's not data driven, particularly you're not trying to dominate a whole category, but as someone who's trying to engage with people who are coming out of dental school, this title perfectly resonates with that entire audience. So those are five question. So those are five title types that we talk about. And as you think about your own title, just if it fits into one of those categories, because if you can tweak it slightly so that it Better serves our audience, knowing again what the job of work is, who the people is that you're trying to engage with and what the next step is. These are much. This gives you a great opportunity to dial it in and not run the risk of going down.
\n\nThe traditional publishing group of trying to put a clever title up there might stop someone on a bookshelf in order for them to pick up and read the back of the book, because that's not the framework that we're working in here. So we're going to wrap up there. There are more resources that you can head over to dive into this particular mindset a little bit more. So if you want more reading on the subject, then head over to the five book titles formula dot com the URL at the top there because we've got a whole book, a field guide that we wrote about these five book title types, which goes into a little bit more detailed and we've got time to do here. And then also we did Dean did a book titles workshop, which is up on the resources section of the website. So head over to 90 minute books dot com and follow the workshops link when we've got a book titles workshop where Dean goes into some of these book title types in a little bit more. And then there's a whole Q&A session that followed where he was answering questions from people on the call.
\n\nSo, again, if this is something you're struggling with or you want to kind of get more, think about it a little bit more than definitely follow along with those two resources and there's lots of opportunity then to dial in your idea within the framework of the five titles, as always. If you want to ask us some questions, then head over to now minute books dot com. We've got some additional resources there. There's our contact details on there as well. You can start on me an email, always happy to answer questions as much as I can, and if you want to jump on a strategy, call, again happy to do that as much as time allows. So give a call to the office or drop me an email and we can schedule time. Okay, so with that, I will see you in the next video. Okay, so with that, I will see you in mindset.
","summary":"We get more questions about book titles than almost any other subject.\r\n\r\nIt makes sense - Your book title is the thing that stops someone doing whatever they were doing long enough to think, 'I want that...'\r\n\r\nToday on the podcast I want to share the video I recorded for Mindset 2 of our Book Blueprint Scorecard: Choosing a Title That Resonates, where I run through 5 book title formulas that help you create something that compels people to get a copy.\r\n\r\nBeing in conversation with those pre-disposed to work with you is the secret to a valuable email list, and offering a copy of your book is the perfect start to this journey.","date_published":"2022-10-23T11:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/fcb09f5c-c277-4ce0-a719-2191ecff1410.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":13863802,"duration_in_seconds":1145}]},{"id":"e362d4df-f433-408d-8521-9e5b6b613248","title":"Ep116: Additional Revenue by White Labelling Your Book","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/116","content_text":"Today on the Book More Show, Betsey & I talk about the idea of using your book outside of the clients you can personally help, by white labeling it, allowing others to use a version in their marketing, and obviously pay you for the service!\n\nThis works especially well if you are a business coach or have clients already paying you to help with their marketing, but it can work for anyone who has a book, or can create something business owners would pay to use.\n\nWe wrapped up talking about when it makes sense to take this a step further and white label the actual 90-Minute Book process. If you have a framework that helps people find more clients, and a book would help that success, then white labeling the 90-Minute Book process could be a great way you can help your clients create that book.\n\nIt was fun to dive deeper on a topic we're help more & more people with.\n\n\nLINKS\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/116\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hi, welcome to the Book more show. I'm Stuart Bell and today Betsy and I are talking about the idea of using your book outside of the clients, that you can personally help by white labelling it and allowing others to use a version in their marketing and, obviously, paying you for the service. So this works especially well if you're a business coach or have clients already paying you to help with their marketing. But really it can work for anyone who has a book or can create something that other business owners would be willing to pay for. So we wrapped up the conversation talking about when it makes sense to take it to the next level as well and white labelled the whole natural 90 minute book process. So if you have a framework that helps people find more clients and a book would help people be successful with that framework, then white labelling the 90 minute book process and allowing us to do the production work could be a great way of helping those clients of yours create the book that they need to make the most of your system. Okay, so it was a fun episode always good to dive deeper into a topic, especially one that we're helping more and more people with. So looking forward to sharing this with you as always. \nIf you've got any questions, just shoot me an email to Stuart STUART. Stuart, 90 minute books and always happy to jump on a call and help. Okay, let's get to the show. How are you? Very good, thank you. How are you doing? \n\nBetsey: Good. \n\nStuart: Great, I think it's podcast time. \n\nBetsey: Here we go. \n\nStuart: I know right, great call with Dean. Last week we dived down to the studio over in Winshaven and ran through some great ideas. We had a long list of things we were going to do, a couple of short sessions, but we ended up starting by thinking about whether it makes sense, or when it makes sense for someone to write a book, and then that took 45 minutes. \nSo we got one into the list, but it was a great deep dive on really the kind of foundations, the fundamentals of our belief that a book is really the best lead generation tool that you can have for your business, and expanded on some of those ideas. So if, as you're listening to this, if you haven't listened to last week's episode, well worth checking back in and also look for the show notes on the website as well, because we were in the studio recording so there's video to go along with it. \n\nBetsey: Nice, that's great. What do you want to talk about today? \n\nStuart: This week. I thought we would talk about white-level projects because two separate conversations I've had with people this week it's come up. So it's definitely an idea worth pursuing because it's surprising there's so many options and such a wide variety of opportunities that it creates that it's always surprising how the conversations go. I don't think I've had a white level conversation with two people. That's been the same over many years that we've been doing this. \n\nBetsey: Right. Yeah, it's definitely a great tool. I'm excited to dive in here. \n\nStuart: So I think the first place to start is thinking about what, as I guess defining what we mean by a white-level project is so many variations, but the two main camps that it's all, the two main approaches that it breaks down to, are white labeling an existing book, so a book that you've created the one version of, and then allowing other people to use it. \nAnd then the second option is people refer to it as white labeling, but it's more white labeling the service rather than white labeling the book, and that's where you may work with coaching clients, consulting clients of your own. You might have your own community, you might want to guide people towards writing a book, but then you would white label the 90-minute book service in order to execute that and to be able to offer it as a service, as a more orchestrated service, rather than just pointing people to us, but offer it as a more orchestrated service for your clients. The conversations that you've had can you think of any other? Those are the two examples of the. The conversations that I've had. Can you think of any other? \n\nBetsey: yeah, no. I think those are definitely the two. I was trying to think of the ones with white label recently, but you know, and they fall into those categories. So I think most you know it was maybe 50, 50, maybe a little higher on the, you know, using the existing book and letting someone use their same book, but the possibilities are endless with that, you know, I mean you know to do so people get excited about it. \n\nStuart: Yeah, I think, as you say, it's probably the more common use case and the easier to do. It takes less. There's less orchestration around it. So let's dive into that one first. The example I'm going to use is one of the books that we use internally on the real estate side of the business. So they had to sell your house to top dollar book. So as a piece of information that was written first for one person and then many people were allowed to use it. It's the easiest example because most people are aware of, even if they haven't bought a house. They're aware of what real estate agents do and it's just an easy one to explain. So with that initial version of the book was written as a way to engage potential seller clients for a realtor. So the position that the book sits in the O4 funnel is, as you're there, trying to market yourself, engaging with people when they're early in the discovery process is a great way of starting that relationship so that when they're eventually ready to take an action and do business with you or look for the service that you provide, then you're front of mind. You'd already started with building reciprocity and rapport and adding value to the people's lives. \nSo in the realtor example, if I'm going to think about selling my house at some point down the track, I'm going to be thinking about what's it worth at the moment, how could I sell it for top dollar? What are the things that I need to do in order to make the most of it? And in seeing a book called how to sell your house for top dollar, if I've at all got any of those thoughts, that's going to resonate with me and the fact that I'm seeing an ad for a book. It's a very, very minimum, viable commitment way of getting people to sacrifice their name and email address in order to for you to get their details and for them to get the information. So, rather than having another ad that says I can sell your house for top dollar, give me a call. Or if you want to know how to sell your house for top dollar, give me a call all of those things that need a little bit more commitment. \nThe book is a very low friction way of getting people to execute on the idea, so the first one that was written there any one study was heck. We maximize the realtor's opportunity to collect the leads of the group of people who are broadly thinking about potentially selling the house at some point in the next six to twelve months and the information that's provided in there super straightforward. It's a very small book but at the end of the day, all that we're trying to do is give people the idea to start the conversation. We're not trying to solve the whole problem for them. This is just the introduction. So that particular example is a very small book, introduces six or seven key ideas, leads people towards a call to action on the back, which is pinpoint price analysis of your home or a meeting with the realtor. So in white labeling, what we've then done is allowed other people to add their details to it, to make the book their own. So obviously it's their name on the front, their call to action at the back, the details after that, the specifics on the inside can vary depending on how complicated you want the setup to be. \nSo let's switch examples. Let's say, on the podcast we've used the florist example a lot before. So in that model we've talked about the an early stage. An early stage engagement for people who are going to be clients of a florist might be wedding flowers. So the white labeled book. If you were a business that had florist clients and you were trying to improve their sales might be a guide to the very best floor arrangements or how to get $10,000 worth of flowers for on a $1,000 budget and within the pages of the book. It's relatively generic advice, but still as useful as you can make it. And then the white labeling would then be allowing the florist to add their details Now to the to. \nWhy extend you allow the customizations really is a reflection of how difficult and complicated and how much of a how much you eventually need to charge for the project, because obviously complexity adds to the costs. So changing someone's name on the title on the cover and the call to action on the back, that's very minimal work, so it's a pretty cost effective way of doing it. If another example that we've had in the past is in financial services, where the the dollar amounts of the tax code that was written about in the white label book varied state by state, so that actually was pretty complicated because we had to know all of the variations, all of the permutations of the various tax elements that were written in the book, even though it was only really there were three variables, but three variables, and then there was probably six different across all of the states. There were six different permutations of those, but still bringing all of that together got pretty complicated. Definitely doable, but just complicated both in terms of set up in the front and just execution. \n\nBetsey: As they're done, I think that's sorry, you look at the top dollar book and that is that we do and it we just we don't touch anything on the inside. It's just the information items that are there, the name, and that we do put their contact information. But like I think about some of those books and that's one of the people I do ask a lot like how much do I let somebody change? \nyou know, or do I just keep it very generic? And I think you know, if you're looking at people across the states, which we have had a couple cases, you know, because in Illinois that tax rate is different from that of Missouri, you know, and so you have a little more detail you have to get into. So you know, I and I think you know if you don't want to do the work when you go the generic route. \n\nYou know it's a little easier, it's a little more people relate to it a little bit. You know numbers and such definitely. \n\nStuart: It's definitely the position to start from because of that complexity and oftentimes people are adding in complexity unnecessarily. Now that tax example was unavoidable because it was talking about inheritance thresholds and they stay by state. It changes whether there's inheritance tax and the amount changes as well. So the whole book was around that inheritance type positioning so that one was unavoidable. But oftentimes people add in complexity because they've got this mentality of they need to put in. It's like the books generally people overestimate how much they need to put in and the level of detail for book if it purpose is to start the conversation, the objective isn't to convert people within the words of the page. You're not charging people $20, so you need to provide every conceivable amount of value and detail you can imagine. It's not an academically peer-reviewed textbook that needs to be complete. It's a book to help you build your business that starts the conversation and builds rapport and gets people to the point that they're raising their hand and having a conversation where you then go into all the details. It's like the 90-minute book or the book blueprint scorecard, which even that one's more detailed because it goes in. We're trying to help people do a number of these steps but we know as the production element. In the background there's a thousand other questions that we need to ask people or we need to make calls on. Trying to include all of that upfront is unnecessary. So I think it's definitely the case that people get, because they're in it every day and they know the numbers or know the knowledge, it's natural to think that I have to include a lot of that stuff. \nThe top dollar books are a great example. I mean, whether you choose to remodel the bathroom, update the bathroom in some way, now how to sell it for top dollar, making sure that the bathroom is as presentable as possible is good advice, but whether that advice is specifically you should remodel and change the vanity, and whether the vanity should be marble or laminar or what should be, what materials should be used. All of that is far too much detail. So again, not that says specific, as tax guidelines change in state by state, but just this idea of whether or not the whole white label project comes about, because you wrote the first book, which is quite detailed, and now you're looking to make it more generic in order to white label. It be as generic as possible because, if you can, if you're working with other real estate or you're working with other florists and you've got the opportunity of allowing them to use a white label book where the project costs. Maybe you would charge them maybe a thousand dollars for setup and five dollars a copy, or whether it's very complicated, meaning that you have to charge them twenty five hundred dollars for setup and six dollars per copy. \nThat's a very different. It changes the mechanisms. Even those costs could be even cheaper if you've got a way of swallowing those setup costs. So you're adding this as a value add to your coaching program or adding it as a tier for your elite coaching clients, that for free. Then having a very generic book that's very cost effective to for. As to white label, means that we don't have to charge you very much to do it, which means that you can add this perceived value and the value definition or the value breakdown, then have been able to charge someone so many dollars for the project or a multiple of that in increased coaching revenue because they're a VIP client and the perceived value of this is way higher. Then that's really where it makes a difference, because you're not only looking to, you're looking to maximize their return and base this book off their success. You're not necessarily interested about the success of the book itself. If that makes sense, it's supporting much more of a bigger project. \n\nBetsey: Right, that's a good reminder on that. But, I'm also going to go back to you saying about keeping it more generic. That seems to be hard for people. \nThey want to put everything in the book. I'm just like, for a lot of reasons, if you're putting the book out there and you've got everything you can possibly say to somebody in it, well, first of all, they don't need you, they don't need to reach out and work with you, but also it gets a little. I think when people go back and read it sometimes they're like wow, this is a lot of information and they feel like they need to, for a lack of better term, dummy it down, which I'm of the mindset, particularly with a white label book. Keep it simple. \nThere's no reason to overcomplicate it. So yeah, but I love when people get like, oh no, I have to have this and this and I'm like, no, you just don't need to do that. \n\nStuart: You know, I think it comes from in part. The benefit of a book as a lead generation tool, as a way to build your business, is that a book itself still has a lot of perceived value around it which is greater than the actual product, greater than the book itself. So there's still this element of being published, having the words on paper, it being something that's created. People think that's a bigger thing than we know that it really is. In the age of kind of underband printing and publishing just being much more democratised, which obviously is what we're trying to do we're trying to remove the gatekeepers, but still people perceive a book as having passed through those gatekeeper stages. So for us as business owners, knowing that there's an extra boost from having it, that's one of the benefits of creating it. It's not just that you're sharing information, it's that the information has an extra shine, an extra glow to it because it's in the form of a book. But people get tripped up because on the one hand, they know that and want to do this project because of that very reason, but then flip back into the mode of oh well, if I'm writing a book now, I've got to go through all of these stages and gatekeepers and it's got to meet all of these minimum requirements. And if I didn't put everything in there then people aren't going to almost like an imposter syndrome thing. If it hasn't got all of these things, then people aren't going to believe that it's true or believe the words that are in there. But that's not the case. \nThe reality is it's the minority, not the majority, that read it and this particular type of it's like saying that I want to buy a vehicle. Not all vehicles are the same. If I want to buy a truck because I need to move £500 of wood, that's very different from saying I need a vehicle because I need to get from A to B in the most luxury possible with a silent ride and therefore I need a BMW. A book is the same. A book is a high level term. The job of work of a book as a lead generation tool is to present a friendly opportunity to compel people to take that next very small step into eventually becoming a client with you down the road. You're not trying to show off to someone that you've written a book. And look how clever I am. I include all of these things. It's a very different job of work. \n\nBetsey: Yeah, exactly I think you just said I talked about. This is something when I have a phone call with somebody and they're asking about a book, be it white label or whatever they. When someone says I don't even care if they read the book A lot of people don't they will pick up a book. I'm notorious for this Pick up a book and I'll. If it's like a self-help or some sort of generic book versus a novel, I'll look at the cover and I'll look at that cover and I'll kind of skimp through the table of contents, look, oh you know, and then I find myself going to the website that's on the back, or Google. \n\nStuart: Right, exactly Because it's the job of work is different. A novel, the job of work of the novel, is to be entertained. You're buying it because you want to be entertained. You're buying it because you want to read it and have the words stimulate. Why would they stimulate in your brain? And it entertains you. \nThe job of work of this book. People aren't buying it because they want to read the words. They're buying it because they want the answer to the problem. And that's such a fundamental difference that I think people miss. The vehicle is the same. The vehicle is something that's on paper, that's bound together. I mean, even that's not strictly true, because obviously we're talking about digital ones so much these days. \nBut the job of work of it is to compel people to take that next step, to reassure them that they're in the right place, to help them understand that the call to action, the next step, is the thing that will get them to the outcome that they want. And the outcome isn't understanding any of this. The outcome is just whatever. The outcome is the florist example. If you had a book where you wrote the five tips of getting $10,000 worth of flowers for $1,000, the Brian and Green don't care about that they just want $10,000, but they just want it to look like they've got $10,000 worth of flowers at their wedding. If they could, with the same name and email address that they're opting in for the book, if they could enter those details and just have those flowers appear, hey, that's what they want. \nThey don't care about your knowledge or how clever you're being with one flower versus another flower, or whether, in the 50 years of experience you've collectively got within the organization, you know that sourcing them from this company versus another company is actually the same product. They just go different channels so they're 20% cheaper. They don't care about any of that, they just want the outcome and it's the same whether you're dealing with foot pain, selling a house for top dollar, writing a book. I mean, that's the irony of the whole book. Blueprint scorecard. \nI mean, if you take that and go through all of the videos that were recorded for it and the exercises, you could end up with the end product in mirrored in the way that we create it, in the same framework, in the same ideas behind each of the stages. But really I don't want people to read in detail and have to go through and do all of the work themselves. It's great that some people want to do that and understand that for some people it's a cost constraint so they have to do it. In fact I've done two of the more recent strategy calls that I've done with non-clients. \nI've been with people who just aren't in a position to afford us at all. They're young guys, they're barely working. They haven't got two, three, five, six grand to write a book when they've also got no audience at the moment. But this framework gives them some steps. So anyway, back to the point is that the scorecard in the funnel is a way of sharing with people some useful information and hopefully compelling them that the quickest and best way for them to do it is just to take the step on the call to action which is to one of them is to call us and get started, because it's the fastest, quickest way and you'll leverage all of our knowledge. But the actual reading of it, the content of it, it's the outcome that people want. Sorry, he got sidetracked on a bit of a rant there. \n\nBetsey: No, that's all good information there for people to hear. \n\nStuart: When we were talking, I was using the samples there of the book having a glow about it. It's got an extra magic because it is printed pages. It is worth mentioning as well that whether we're talking about print or digital, that's less of a definition these days, because a book doesn't necessarily just mean a physical book that's on paper. It also means a digital version of the book and to keep that magic going. That's why the digital versions of the books we create for people are formatted with left right margins and with all of the kind of in between pages. The blank pages are still in place. Because we want to keep that magic going. \n\nBetsey: We never use the term ebook because it's a pointless definition. \n\nStuart: People love that term yeah yeah, exactly so I think, the digital version of the book. I'd love to send you a copy of the book. I'll send you a digital copy of it, adding in extra words like ebooks, or formatting it in a different way. It just definitely takes the glow off the thing that we're trying to create. \n\nBetsey: I think people like when I not so much me, because I work in this environment, so I know but people say to me a lot like, oh well, I don't just want an ebook, because they view that as like something that somebody's stapled together in the office or ebooks. \n\nStuart: You know it doesn't have that glow, I mean I like that. \n\nBetsey: You say glow. It doesn't have that you know, but here's a digital copy of my book. I mean, that's exact same thing. But it's always gets people excited. \n\nStuart: But the positioning that Robert Cialdini book Pre-Swasion I don't think it's a little while since I've read it. I don't think it specifically uses that as an example, but that whole premise of pre-charging situations with the outcome in mind. If you say to someone, oh yeah, I'll send you a digital copy of my book or I'll send you an ebook, they're going to look forward to sending, look forward to receiving a digital copy of the book, but are they going to look forward to receiving an ebook in the same way? \n\nBetsey: I mean it's just unnecessary undervaluing. \n\nStuart: So, from the white label perspective as well, if you're going down the white label route, then your part of your job of work is marketing that book for the clients or selling the benefits to the clients that they marketed themselves. So language like this if you're offering a white label book as part of your solution, definitely don't refer to it as an ebook. And then the choice of whether you allow people to use digital copies or allow them to use physical copies Again, think about how that sits in the context of how they're eventually going to use it. So if all of the rest of your marketing is around Facebook ads, opt-ins and email, then having building physical copies into the program isn't necessarily the most useful, because none of your other marketing talks about physical copies. But on the flip side, selling your product as the coach, selling your product to the florists that you coach of having a book as part of the marketing campaign, you probably need to include a physical element because, as the recipients, as the people who are paying you not the end clients, but the florists who are paying you if you can give them a physical book, that product, that marketing product, seems more valuable than saying, oh, we're just going to create a digital version of the book, because they'll perceive it as different. So thinking through each stage of this and what the job of work of each element is super important, which is why we say that there's a million different maybe not a million, but there's lots of different variations of what the product, what the white label product could be, and depending on what you're doing. This is why we have conversations with people to set up the product in the way that makes the most sense. But definitely think in terms of the digital book. \nOr you've got the opportunity, rather, to create the digital book and the physical book, and what combination of both do you need in order to make this white label project a success for you as the coach in selling that service, and what you need to make it as a success in terms of the end marketing that the client's going to use? \nSo, sticking with the florist example writing the book of how to get $10,000 worth of flowers on a $1,000 budget that's great. But if you just did that and then gave it to them and said, okay, now you're on your own, that whole project isn't going to be as valuable. And if your business model is set up in so much as you've got, maybe a recurring license fee where they can use the digital version year after year, or whether the business model is set up where you get a cost of the physical print, the print cost of each edition. So therefore you ideally want them to sell more than that is going to change how you position it and make sure that you've got some program in place to follow up and make the book product for them as successful as possible. \n\nBetsey: One thing that I do for the florist. \n\nStuart: I mean, we haven't I don't think we've ever worked with any florists, which is I don't know whether I use that as the example, because there's no risk that I'm accidentally talking about client details. Right exactly, or whether it's we should find more florists to market to, but sticking with that as an example. So that book idea is seems like a great idea. I'm not that into flowers, so Lucy is very much so more than me, but yeah, so I'm not that into it. That as a subject seems like an interesting idea because knowing that as a florist, a decent amount of my top revenue producing business is going to be weddings, because you add a zero on the end to anything that starts with wedding at the zero on the end, so that seems to be a high margin business. There's lots of them going on. They're not particularly. Weddings themselves aren't necessarily impacted by the economy. Wedding budgets might be, but weddings themselves aren't. \nNow, having something that is positioned as get more for your money seems like a good thing. Positioning it and in front of the right people seems like a easier thing to do, because that book is going to be something that's all cheese and no whiskers, to use that example. It's all about giving valuable information. It's a low commitment that people need to opt in. But then you could Also run Facebook ads for people who have changed their. I'm not sure how to lock down now. Facebook is around all of the demographics because they keep changing it and restricting it. But you could imagine a scenario where you're adding that ad to people who have recently changed their status to engaged within a 50 mile area of your shop. That seems like a very good online version. You could have physical versions that are on the shelf, on the countertop in the store, physical versions that you can use at wedding shows and things like that, physical versions that could go to complimentary, non-competing businesses. So venue hire places, the table hire places, suit hire all of these complimentary, non-competing businesses for wedding traffic. You could do a physical version that goes into that. \nAnd then the follow-up in the setup. Again, depending on how the book is structured, it very much leads into the call to action, the next step. So if you're a consultant of wedding florists, then saying that the next step on the book should be the flower scorecard equivalent, which might be okay depending on the season, depending on your budgets, depending on the color that you like, entering those three criteria and I would imagine again, not from a knowledgeable point of view, but I would imagine that would be a relatively easy follow-up after that assessment. So enter the details, we'll tell you what the best flowers are for your budget and the time of year. Enter those details and then the reply would just match up relatively. I mean, there can only be so many combinations. I would imagine if you sat down and wrote 10 emails that covered all of the combinations that you could think about, you could have a pretty detailed response to someone that would then again compel them the next step down the path towards coming in for a flower review or whatever it would be. \n\nBetsey: Flower review yes. \n\nStuart: That's the one with not being too into the subject, did you kind of? The framework of the idea is very clear and very successful and very the details might get lost in the language Exactly. \n\nBetsey: Don't worry about that. \n\nStuart: Yeah, go ahead so yeah, I was just going to wrap up that first example because again I ran long slightly and got carried away on that particular example. But so, white labeling a book, let's just quickly recap and then we'll go on to white labeling the service briefly. So, white labeling the book, we want. You, as the white labeler, are selling the service to the clients that you work with, so the people in the business that you're writing about. So if you coach florists, it's the florist that you're selling to, not the florist's clients, not the end consumers. So to build that white label package, you've got to make it worthwhile and appealing to the florists themselves. But in order for the project to be successful, it also needs to work for the end user, for the clients. So, in terms of writing it and then executing on the white label projects, you need something that's valuable but relatively generic and universal, and something where there's an obvious call to action and obvious next step that the end users can take in order to identify themselves as potential clients. So that way you can sell the idea of the project, the idea of the white label book you can sell out to the florist clients and they can see some value because they can see the asset that will be created in a way that would be difficult for them to do themselves, or constantly or time consuming, and they can see that there's a clear step to the end product. \nOne other thing that I'll quickly mention, and then we'll move on, is photos. So very often we're suggesting not putting the author's photo on the front, because to the end user, who cares what the author looks like? That's not the thing. Well, what we're trying to do is interrupt them and say, hey, you're thinking about this, here's a solution to your problem. And the whole cover is dedicated that first step. The only time where that sometimes varies is in this white label project idea, because you, as the white labeler, are actually your clients. The people who pay you money are the florists. You need to do whatever you can to sell that project. So not only does it need to be successful from a marketing point of view and it can clearly drive leads, but if you can also push their buttons, their vanity buttons, a little bit, then that's not bad either. That's just gonna add a little bit more. That might be the 1% that gets them over the line. One way of doing that might be to include their photo on the front. So usually we wouldn't do that or wouldn't suggest it. But if you can imagine white labeling, a book that said how to get $10,000 worth of flowers on a $1,000 budget and a nice picture of a wedding bouquet on the front and then in the bottom there's a picture of the florist and their name, then, because the florist are paying you for the project and they see their name on the front of it, that might be enough to well, not might be enough. Hopefully the whole project is gonna be enough for them to see the value in it, but that also might be an additional thing that gets them over the line. \nI was gonna remember going to Tony Robbins' events years and years ago back in the early 2000s. So this was the three day weekend events, the UPW event that they're still doing now and in that they were selling the bigger programs, so the week long programs at the various events, and as part of it there was the various tiers and at the top tier, which was expensive, and I think this was like $10,000 plus maybe for this is back in the early 2000s for all of the programs. But as part of this VIP club there was also a hat like a baseball cap with like what. I can remember what the words were on the front of it, but this cool looking black baseball cap. I can remember actually sitting there thinking, oh man, that'd be cool to have that hat like separating out the complete value of the program or the dollar of investment. \nOh man, look at that hat. I mean it's something, but anyway, no one's immune from that type of thing, so yeah. \n\nBetsey: No yeah. \n\nStuart: Consider putting their picture on the front, because it might be the black hat example. \n\nBetsey: Right, exactly. \n\nStuart: Okay. \n\nBetsey: Next up is white labeling the service. \n\nStuart: Yeah, white labeling the service, so this is less frequent. So we've got a couple of people that we've done and are doing this with. So this is for organizations that have got more of a. It's a higher cost product at the end of the day. \nWhite labeling a effectively white labeling a 90 minute book where you allow your clients to write anything and they just have us execute it that's obviously a high price point for them, because if it was an idea that they had themselves, they could Google, they'd find us and they'd say our price is listed on the website. So you need to be able to add enough value that you can get something from this as well. That makes the whole white labeling worthwhile. Otherwise, it would make more sense just to say to them hey, you should write a book and I've worked with 90 minute books before. They're a great partner. You should just go across there, that's, and then we'll just take it from there. White labeling the service means that what we're really looking to do is orchestrate a framework that we then execute in a way that's kind of discrete but not invisible. So we never say that we can be invisible. If nothing else, our email address is saying 90 minute books we're easy enough to find. \nEven if you Google our names, you'll probably find us. So that's why we say discrete, because what we do with the white label project is set up dedicated landing pages and have specific funnels to onboard people in a very co-branded way between you as the white label and us as the executor. So the way that it works very well is if you have a framework already. So let's say, for example, going back to the florist example, at a lower tier level, you've got a white label book option which is hey, pay this amount of money and then you can put your name on the front and your phone number on the back and we'll point people to your website and that's the low cost entry to the white label book that you wrote for your florist clients. The next tier up the service tier might be that as a florist marketer, you have a very specific system in place. So you've got the email funnel dialed in. You've got some landing pages based on various criteria that you know people are interested in. You've got a kind of a hack to the system that you know, as a florist, makes a difference across the board. So it could be in the way that you arrange the flowers or the composition or the sourcing. Something about it makes your marketing strategy unique to other florist coaches. And as part of that framework, as part of your framework, you wanna suggest people write a book, but you know that they could write it on various different situation circumstances. So just a white label book isn't good enough, but your book writing framework for florists might be. \n\nWe always want to start with the introduction, which is a background to you how you got into floral arrangement, why you're passionate about flowers in this area and all of the people that you've been able to help. Then you want to talk about the working in the northeast means that a lot of people come wanting these particular arrangements that they see in Instagram, but all of the influencers are in California. Those flowers just aren't available over here. But we've worked and have worked out the Massachusetts equivalent of all of these Instagrammer's influencers images so we can help create that model. And then in the book, talk about a framework of how you set that up for you particular, how you have sourced those flowers, how you interpret the design and then whatever the closes and the call to action around your thing. So white labeling the service as knowing what that structure is, what the framework is that the book hangs on. We can then bring the clients through, asking them those very similar questions that mirror your exact framework. \nSo by white labeling the service, you're allowing people to write the book that resonates with them on whichever particular topic. It is broader than just the white label book, but you're doing it within a very controlled framework and we're just executing it in the background. That also then allows you to sell it for a higher price point. So typically our books are in the kind of three to $6,000 range. To complete, you might have a $6,000 to $10,000 program that includes writing a book but also has a number of follow on sequences. So the auto responders and the landing pages and all of these other elements built for them as part of your bigger program. So does that difference make sense? White labeling the service versus white labeling the book? \n\nBetsey: It does and I think you know I mean both are great options. Just depends on where you are, I think you know, in your business or with your specific group. But it really is such a way for someone to get a book out there and not have to put in all the work you know. \nA lot of our clients are super busy and so that's one of the things you know. We look at Marvin Mitchell husband, he's white label, he's talking. We get quite a bit of traffic from them and they're just, they're all just people who are busy and they don't have time to do it, but they want that tool and they want, you know, they want that tool, you know, for marketing purposes, and so it really is a great way to you know to do it. \n\nStuart: And it's potentially a stepping stone to something later. I mean having the white label book version now. So you've got something that's out, there, it's. You can almost test all of the funnels and emails and the follow up campaigns and lay all of the track with a white label product and then, if you previously self that it's effective, you've got the opportunity to really dial it in for the specific market that the white label book doesn't come out, the white label book doesn't cover. So the $10,000 of wedding flowers for a thousand on a thousand dollar budget, that's great for that particular funnel. \nBut if you also know that you do a whole stack of work in corporate flowers or event flowers or funeral flowers, the white label book isn't going to work for that. But you'll have laid the track and then freed up some mind space to think about OK, if I was going to write it in this other area, then what could that look like? And also might save you from things like we were saying before. They're over complicating it Because if you just go into a book from scratch, it's very easy as we started off by saying, it's very easy to over engineer and try and do too much and lose the site of the job of work. If you know the success you've had from the white labeled florist book, the white labeled wedding flowers book, then you've got much more, much more awareness of the reality of the situation and what the almost the minimum effective dose is in order to not over complicate the one that you actually come to do and not find yourself kind of stuck in a project that's lasting years and costing an unlimited budget, as you keep refining it and adding more, changing things around. That's right. Yeah, I'd say that the white label, if you're as you're listening to this if you've got any coaching organization or any marketing organization where you're doing the work for people and you've got multiple clients in a similar industry so there's that kind of that synergy or economy of scale a white label book. And so even if you've I mean, we've been we were saying in the podcast last week we've been doing this for just coming up on 10 years now and 1000 books. \nSo even if you wrote a book a number of years ago and you've used it, but you're thinking, you know, like white label this and other people would use it as well, I could get some additional revenue from it being wider, particularly for anyone. When you think about like financial advisors, florists, pt people, anyone where they're geographically constrained, I mean this is a fantastic idea because 100% utilization of your business is going to be like a 50 mile footprint. As soon as you go outside of that to the rest of the tens of thousands of miles that are in the country, you could be getting additional revenue, not from clients because you can't serve them, but from helping other people have some the success you've had from your book. So yeah, if you've got any sized organization, if you've got an existing book where you know there are other people who would be would be able to make use of it in their markets, then white label book is a very easy way of getting that additional revenue. And the complexity of the actual project itself can vary from very simple to needlessly complicated, but it's much more straightforward. The white label service one is for a subset, a pretty unique subset of people who have very much got a definite framework themselves and they've got quite a big client group. All can charge a substantial amount of money that makes it worthwhile, but a white label book certainly recommend that for most people, to begin with at least. \n\nBetsey: Absolutely. \n\nStuart: Cool. Well, I think we did the white label subject yeah, that's great. \n\nBetsey: I think, yeah, people listening, hopefully our clients that have already. They, like you said, you've written a book, it's there, you've been using it, you're ready to take the next step, like, okay, this is, I want to offer this to people. Let us know we're. You know that's an exciting thing to do and it's fun to see how many other authors come on board and you know, with the white label project so. \n\nStuart: Yeah, definitely, if you just send an email to either support a 90 minute books or to me at Stuart S T U ART Stuart at 90 minute books, and we can jump on a call and just smash out some of the details. But yeah, it's exciting and of all of the people that we've seen do this, I think that I mean some of them have had more success than others. Obviously, I don't think anyone's been disappointed in the project. I think some of them have been relieved that we've helped them simplify and streamline it, but it is a pretty quick process to get set up Cool. \n\nBetsey: Okay. \n\nStuart: Well, thank you for your time. It's always better and everyone thanks for listening. Definitely, if you're interested in white labeling, just shoot as an email. Or if white labeling is not for you but you do have a book that you're waiting to get started, then now is definitely a great time to do it, as everyone's getting back to the office after the summer. Things are picking up again as we head in towards the fall. So, yeah, just reach out to us at support 90 minute books or head over to the website and we're here waiting to help. Okay, thank you, and we'll speak in the next one. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, Betsey & I talk about the idea of using your book outside of the clients you can personally help, by white labeling it, allowing others to use a version in their marketing, and obviously pay you for the service!
\n\nThis works especially well if you are a business coach or have clients already paying you to help with their marketing, but it can work for anyone who has a book, or can create something business owners would pay to use.
\n\nWe wrapped up talking about when it makes sense to take this a step further and white label the actual 90-Minute Book process. If you have a framework that helps people find more clients, and a book would help that success, then white labeling the 90-Minute Book process could be a great way you can help your clients create that book.
\n\nIt was fun to dive deeper on a topic we're help more & more people with.
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nBetsey: Good.
\n\nStuart: Great, I think it's podcast time.
\n\nBetsey: Here we go.
\n\nStuart: I know right, great call with Dean. Last week we dived down to the studio over in Winshaven and ran through some great ideas. We had a long list of things we were going to do, a couple of short sessions, but we ended up starting by thinking about whether it makes sense, or when it makes sense for someone to write a book, and then that took 45 minutes.
\nSo we got one into the list, but it was a great deep dive on really the kind of foundations, the fundamentals of our belief that a book is really the best lead generation tool that you can have for your business, and expanded on some of those ideas. So if, as you're listening to this, if you haven't listened to last week's episode, well worth checking back in and also look for the show notes on the website as well, because we were in the studio recording so there's video to go along with it.
Betsey: Nice, that's great. What do you want to talk about today?
\n\nStuart: This week. I thought we would talk about white-level projects because two separate conversations I've had with people this week it's come up. So it's definitely an idea worth pursuing because it's surprising there's so many options and such a wide variety of opportunities that it creates that it's always surprising how the conversations go. I don't think I've had a white level conversation with two people. That's been the same over many years that we've been doing this.
\n\nBetsey: Right. Yeah, it's definitely a great tool. I'm excited to dive in here.
\n\nStuart: So I think the first place to start is thinking about what, as I guess defining what we mean by a white-level project is so many variations, but the two main camps that it's all, the two main approaches that it breaks down to, are white labeling an existing book, so a book that you've created the one version of, and then allowing other people to use it.
\nAnd then the second option is people refer to it as white labeling, but it's more white labeling the service rather than white labeling the book, and that's where you may work with coaching clients, consulting clients of your own. You might have your own community, you might want to guide people towards writing a book, but then you would white label the 90-minute book service in order to execute that and to be able to offer it as a service, as a more orchestrated service, rather than just pointing people to us, but offer it as a more orchestrated service for your clients. The conversations that you've had can you think of any other? Those are the two examples of the. The conversations that I've had. Can you think of any other?
Betsey: yeah, no. I think those are definitely the two. I was trying to think of the ones with white label recently, but you know, and they fall into those categories. So I think most you know it was maybe 50, 50, maybe a little higher on the, you know, using the existing book and letting someone use their same book, but the possibilities are endless with that, you know, I mean you know to do so people get excited about it.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, I think, as you say, it's probably the more common use case and the easier to do. It takes less. There's less orchestration around it. So let's dive into that one first. The example I'm going to use is one of the books that we use internally on the real estate side of the business. So they had to sell your house to top dollar book. So as a piece of information that was written first for one person and then many people were allowed to use it. It's the easiest example because most people are aware of, even if they haven't bought a house. They're aware of what real estate agents do and it's just an easy one to explain. So with that initial version of the book was written as a way to engage potential seller clients for a realtor. So the position that the book sits in the O4 funnel is, as you're there, trying to market yourself, engaging with people when they're early in the discovery process is a great way of starting that relationship so that when they're eventually ready to take an action and do business with you or look for the service that you provide, then you're front of mind. You'd already started with building reciprocity and rapport and adding value to the people's lives.
\nSo in the realtor example, if I'm going to think about selling my house at some point down the track, I'm going to be thinking about what's it worth at the moment, how could I sell it for top dollar? What are the things that I need to do in order to make the most of it? And in seeing a book called how to sell your house for top dollar, if I've at all got any of those thoughts, that's going to resonate with me and the fact that I'm seeing an ad for a book. It's a very, very minimum, viable commitment way of getting people to sacrifice their name and email address in order to for you to get their details and for them to get the information. So, rather than having another ad that says I can sell your house for top dollar, give me a call. Or if you want to know how to sell your house for top dollar, give me a call all of those things that need a little bit more commitment.
\nThe book is a very low friction way of getting people to execute on the idea, so the first one that was written there any one study was heck. We maximize the realtor's opportunity to collect the leads of the group of people who are broadly thinking about potentially selling the house at some point in the next six to twelve months and the information that's provided in there super straightforward. It's a very small book but at the end of the day, all that we're trying to do is give people the idea to start the conversation. We're not trying to solve the whole problem for them. This is just the introduction. So that particular example is a very small book, introduces six or seven key ideas, leads people towards a call to action on the back, which is pinpoint price analysis of your home or a meeting with the realtor. So in white labeling, what we've then done is allowed other people to add their details to it, to make the book their own. So obviously it's their name on the front, their call to action at the back, the details after that, the specifics on the inside can vary depending on how complicated you want the setup to be.
\nSo let's switch examples. Let's say, on the podcast we've used the florist example a lot before. So in that model we've talked about the an early stage. An early stage engagement for people who are going to be clients of a florist might be wedding flowers. So the white labeled book. If you were a business that had florist clients and you were trying to improve their sales might be a guide to the very best floor arrangements or how to get $10,000 worth of flowers for on a $1,000 budget and within the pages of the book. It's relatively generic advice, but still as useful as you can make it. And then the white labeling would then be allowing the florist to add their details Now to the to.
\nWhy extend you allow the customizations really is a reflection of how difficult and complicated and how much of a how much you eventually need to charge for the project, because obviously complexity adds to the costs. So changing someone's name on the title on the cover and the call to action on the back, that's very minimal work, so it's a pretty cost effective way of doing it. If another example that we've had in the past is in financial services, where the the dollar amounts of the tax code that was written about in the white label book varied state by state, so that actually was pretty complicated because we had to know all of the variations, all of the permutations of the various tax elements that were written in the book, even though it was only really there were three variables, but three variables, and then there was probably six different across all of the states. There were six different permutations of those, but still bringing all of that together got pretty complicated. Definitely doable, but just complicated both in terms of set up in the front and just execution.
Betsey: As they're done, I think that's sorry, you look at the top dollar book and that is that we do and it we just we don't touch anything on the inside. It's just the information items that are there, the name, and that we do put their contact information. But like I think about some of those books and that's one of the people I do ask a lot like how much do I let somebody change?
\nyou know, or do I just keep it very generic? And I think you know, if you're looking at people across the states, which we have had a couple cases, you know, because in Illinois that tax rate is different from that of Missouri, you know, and so you have a little more detail you have to get into. So you know, I and I think you know if you don't want to do the work when you go the generic route.
You know it's a little easier, it's a little more people relate to it a little bit. You know numbers and such definitely.
\n\nStuart: It's definitely the position to start from because of that complexity and oftentimes people are adding in complexity unnecessarily. Now that tax example was unavoidable because it was talking about inheritance thresholds and they stay by state. It changes whether there's inheritance tax and the amount changes as well. So the whole book was around that inheritance type positioning so that one was unavoidable. But oftentimes people add in complexity because they've got this mentality of they need to put in. It's like the books generally people overestimate how much they need to put in and the level of detail for book if it purpose is to start the conversation, the objective isn't to convert people within the words of the page. You're not charging people $20, so you need to provide every conceivable amount of value and detail you can imagine. It's not an academically peer-reviewed textbook that needs to be complete. It's a book to help you build your business that starts the conversation and builds rapport and gets people to the point that they're raising their hand and having a conversation where you then go into all the details. It's like the 90-minute book or the book blueprint scorecard, which even that one's more detailed because it goes in. We're trying to help people do a number of these steps but we know as the production element. In the background there's a thousand other questions that we need to ask people or we need to make calls on. Trying to include all of that upfront is unnecessary. So I think it's definitely the case that people get, because they're in it every day and they know the numbers or know the knowledge, it's natural to think that I have to include a lot of that stuff.
\nThe top dollar books are a great example. I mean, whether you choose to remodel the bathroom, update the bathroom in some way, now how to sell it for top dollar, making sure that the bathroom is as presentable as possible is good advice, but whether that advice is specifically you should remodel and change the vanity, and whether the vanity should be marble or laminar or what should be, what materials should be used. All of that is far too much detail. So again, not that says specific, as tax guidelines change in state by state, but just this idea of whether or not the whole white label project comes about, because you wrote the first book, which is quite detailed, and now you're looking to make it more generic in order to white label. It be as generic as possible because, if you can, if you're working with other real estate or you're working with other florists and you've got the opportunity of allowing them to use a white label book where the project costs. Maybe you would charge them maybe a thousand dollars for setup and five dollars a copy, or whether it's very complicated, meaning that you have to charge them twenty five hundred dollars for setup and six dollars per copy.
\nThat's a very different. It changes the mechanisms. Even those costs could be even cheaper if you've got a way of swallowing those setup costs. So you're adding this as a value add to your coaching program or adding it as a tier for your elite coaching clients, that for free. Then having a very generic book that's very cost effective to for. As to white label, means that we don't have to charge you very much to do it, which means that you can add this perceived value and the value definition or the value breakdown, then have been able to charge someone so many dollars for the project or a multiple of that in increased coaching revenue because they're a VIP client and the perceived value of this is way higher. Then that's really where it makes a difference, because you're not only looking to, you're looking to maximize their return and base this book off their success. You're not necessarily interested about the success of the book itself. If that makes sense, it's supporting much more of a bigger project.
Betsey: Right, that's a good reminder on that. But, I'm also going to go back to you saying about keeping it more generic. That seems to be hard for people.
\nThey want to put everything in the book. I'm just like, for a lot of reasons, if you're putting the book out there and you've got everything you can possibly say to somebody in it, well, first of all, they don't need you, they don't need to reach out and work with you, but also it gets a little. I think when people go back and read it sometimes they're like wow, this is a lot of information and they feel like they need to, for a lack of better term, dummy it down, which I'm of the mindset, particularly with a white label book. Keep it simple.
\nThere's no reason to overcomplicate it. So yeah, but I love when people get like, oh no, I have to have this and this and I'm like, no, you just don't need to do that.
Stuart: You know, I think it comes from in part. The benefit of a book as a lead generation tool, as a way to build your business, is that a book itself still has a lot of perceived value around it which is greater than the actual product, greater than the book itself. So there's still this element of being published, having the words on paper, it being something that's created. People think that's a bigger thing than we know that it really is. In the age of kind of underband printing and publishing just being much more democratised, which obviously is what we're trying to do we're trying to remove the gatekeepers, but still people perceive a book as having passed through those gatekeeper stages. So for us as business owners, knowing that there's an extra boost from having it, that's one of the benefits of creating it. It's not just that you're sharing information, it's that the information has an extra shine, an extra glow to it because it's in the form of a book. But people get tripped up because on the one hand, they know that and want to do this project because of that very reason, but then flip back into the mode of oh well, if I'm writing a book now, I've got to go through all of these stages and gatekeepers and it's got to meet all of these minimum requirements. And if I didn't put everything in there then people aren't going to almost like an imposter syndrome thing. If it hasn't got all of these things, then people aren't going to believe that it's true or believe the words that are in there. But that's not the case.
\nThe reality is it's the minority, not the majority, that read it and this particular type of it's like saying that I want to buy a vehicle. Not all vehicles are the same. If I want to buy a truck because I need to move £500 of wood, that's very different from saying I need a vehicle because I need to get from A to B in the most luxury possible with a silent ride and therefore I need a BMW. A book is the same. A book is a high level term. The job of work of a book as a lead generation tool is to present a friendly opportunity to compel people to take that next very small step into eventually becoming a client with you down the road. You're not trying to show off to someone that you've written a book. And look how clever I am. I include all of these things. It's a very different job of work.
Betsey: Yeah, exactly I think you just said I talked about. This is something when I have a phone call with somebody and they're asking about a book, be it white label or whatever they. When someone says I don't even care if they read the book A lot of people don't they will pick up a book. I'm notorious for this Pick up a book and I'll. If it's like a self-help or some sort of generic book versus a novel, I'll look at the cover and I'll look at that cover and I'll kind of skimp through the table of contents, look, oh you know, and then I find myself going to the website that's on the back, or Google.
\n\nStuart: Right, exactly Because it's the job of work is different. A novel, the job of work of the novel, is to be entertained. You're buying it because you want to be entertained. You're buying it because you want to read it and have the words stimulate. Why would they stimulate in your brain? And it entertains you.
\nThe job of work of this book. People aren't buying it because they want to read the words. They're buying it because they want the answer to the problem. And that's such a fundamental difference that I think people miss. The vehicle is the same. The vehicle is something that's on paper, that's bound together. I mean, even that's not strictly true, because obviously we're talking about digital ones so much these days.
\nBut the job of work of it is to compel people to take that next step, to reassure them that they're in the right place, to help them understand that the call to action, the next step, is the thing that will get them to the outcome that they want. And the outcome isn't understanding any of this. The outcome is just whatever. The outcome is the florist example. If you had a book where you wrote the five tips of getting $10,000 worth of flowers for $1,000, the Brian and Green don't care about that they just want $10,000, but they just want it to look like they've got $10,000 worth of flowers at their wedding. If they could, with the same name and email address that they're opting in for the book, if they could enter those details and just have those flowers appear, hey, that's what they want.
\nThey don't care about your knowledge or how clever you're being with one flower versus another flower, or whether, in the 50 years of experience you've collectively got within the organization, you know that sourcing them from this company versus another company is actually the same product. They just go different channels so they're 20% cheaper. They don't care about any of that, they just want the outcome and it's the same whether you're dealing with foot pain, selling a house for top dollar, writing a book. I mean, that's the irony of the whole book. Blueprint scorecard.
\nI mean, if you take that and go through all of the videos that were recorded for it and the exercises, you could end up with the end product in mirrored in the way that we create it, in the same framework, in the same ideas behind each of the stages. But really I don't want people to read in detail and have to go through and do all of the work themselves. It's great that some people want to do that and understand that for some people it's a cost constraint so they have to do it. In fact I've done two of the more recent strategy calls that I've done with non-clients.
\nI've been with people who just aren't in a position to afford us at all. They're young guys, they're barely working. They haven't got two, three, five, six grand to write a book when they've also got no audience at the moment. But this framework gives them some steps. So anyway, back to the point is that the scorecard in the funnel is a way of sharing with people some useful information and hopefully compelling them that the quickest and best way for them to do it is just to take the step on the call to action which is to one of them is to call us and get started, because it's the fastest, quickest way and you'll leverage all of our knowledge. But the actual reading of it, the content of it, it's the outcome that people want. Sorry, he got sidetracked on a bit of a rant there.
Betsey: No, that's all good information there for people to hear.
\n\nStuart: When we were talking, I was using the samples there of the book having a glow about it. It's got an extra magic because it is printed pages. It is worth mentioning as well that whether we're talking about print or digital, that's less of a definition these days, because a book doesn't necessarily just mean a physical book that's on paper. It also means a digital version of the book and to keep that magic going. That's why the digital versions of the books we create for people are formatted with left right margins and with all of the kind of in between pages. The blank pages are still in place. Because we want to keep that magic going.
\n\nBetsey: We never use the term ebook because it's a pointless definition.
\n\nStuart: People love that term yeah yeah, exactly so I think, the digital version of the book. I'd love to send you a copy of the book. I'll send you a digital copy of it, adding in extra words like ebooks, or formatting it in a different way. It just definitely takes the glow off the thing that we're trying to create.
\n\nBetsey: I think people like when I not so much me, because I work in this environment, so I know but people say to me a lot like, oh well, I don't just want an ebook, because they view that as like something that somebody's stapled together in the office or ebooks.
\n\nStuart: You know it doesn't have that glow, I mean I like that.
\n\nBetsey: You say glow. It doesn't have that you know, but here's a digital copy of my book. I mean, that's exact same thing. But it's always gets people excited.
\n\nStuart: But the positioning that Robert Cialdini book Pre-Swasion I don't think it's a little while since I've read it. I don't think it specifically uses that as an example, but that whole premise of pre-charging situations with the outcome in mind. If you say to someone, oh yeah, I'll send you a digital copy of my book or I'll send you an ebook, they're going to look forward to sending, look forward to receiving a digital copy of the book, but are they going to look forward to receiving an ebook in the same way?
\n\nBetsey: I mean it's just unnecessary undervaluing.
\n\nStuart: So, from the white label perspective as well, if you're going down the white label route, then your part of your job of work is marketing that book for the clients or selling the benefits to the clients that they marketed themselves. So language like this if you're offering a white label book as part of your solution, definitely don't refer to it as an ebook. And then the choice of whether you allow people to use digital copies or allow them to use physical copies Again, think about how that sits in the context of how they're eventually going to use it. So if all of the rest of your marketing is around Facebook ads, opt-ins and email, then having building physical copies into the program isn't necessarily the most useful, because none of your other marketing talks about physical copies. But on the flip side, selling your product as the coach, selling your product to the florists that you coach of having a book as part of the marketing campaign, you probably need to include a physical element because, as the recipients, as the people who are paying you not the end clients, but the florists who are paying you if you can give them a physical book, that product, that marketing product, seems more valuable than saying, oh, we're just going to create a digital version of the book, because they'll perceive it as different. So thinking through each stage of this and what the job of work of each element is super important, which is why we say that there's a million different maybe not a million, but there's lots of different variations of what the product, what the white label product could be, and depending on what you're doing. This is why we have conversations with people to set up the product in the way that makes the most sense. But definitely think in terms of the digital book.
\nOr you've got the opportunity, rather, to create the digital book and the physical book, and what combination of both do you need in order to make this white label project a success for you as the coach in selling that service, and what you need to make it as a success in terms of the end marketing that the client's going to use?
\nSo, sticking with the florist example writing the book of how to get $10,000 worth of flowers on a $1,000 budget that's great. But if you just did that and then gave it to them and said, okay, now you're on your own, that whole project isn't going to be as valuable. And if your business model is set up in so much as you've got, maybe a recurring license fee where they can use the digital version year after year, or whether the business model is set up where you get a cost of the physical print, the print cost of each edition. So therefore you ideally want them to sell more than that is going to change how you position it and make sure that you've got some program in place to follow up and make the book product for them as successful as possible.
Betsey: One thing that I do for the florist.
\n\nStuart: I mean, we haven't I don't think we've ever worked with any florists, which is I don't know whether I use that as the example, because there's no risk that I'm accidentally talking about client details. Right exactly, or whether it's we should find more florists to market to, but sticking with that as an example. So that book idea is seems like a great idea. I'm not that into flowers, so Lucy is very much so more than me, but yeah, so I'm not that into it. That as a subject seems like an interesting idea because knowing that as a florist, a decent amount of my top revenue producing business is going to be weddings, because you add a zero on the end to anything that starts with wedding at the zero on the end, so that seems to be a high margin business. There's lots of them going on. They're not particularly. Weddings themselves aren't necessarily impacted by the economy. Wedding budgets might be, but weddings themselves aren't.
\nNow, having something that is positioned as get more for your money seems like a good thing. Positioning it and in front of the right people seems like a easier thing to do, because that book is going to be something that's all cheese and no whiskers, to use that example. It's all about giving valuable information. It's a low commitment that people need to opt in. But then you could Also run Facebook ads for people who have changed their. I'm not sure how to lock down now. Facebook is around all of the demographics because they keep changing it and restricting it. But you could imagine a scenario where you're adding that ad to people who have recently changed their status to engaged within a 50 mile area of your shop. That seems like a very good online version. You could have physical versions that are on the shelf, on the countertop in the store, physical versions that you can use at wedding shows and things like that, physical versions that could go to complimentary, non-competing businesses. So venue hire places, the table hire places, suit hire all of these complimentary, non-competing businesses for wedding traffic. You could do a physical version that goes into that.
\nAnd then the follow-up in the setup. Again, depending on how the book is structured, it very much leads into the call to action, the next step. So if you're a consultant of wedding florists, then saying that the next step on the book should be the flower scorecard equivalent, which might be okay depending on the season, depending on your budgets, depending on the color that you like, entering those three criteria and I would imagine again, not from a knowledgeable point of view, but I would imagine that would be a relatively easy follow-up after that assessment. So enter the details, we'll tell you what the best flowers are for your budget and the time of year. Enter those details and then the reply would just match up relatively. I mean, there can only be so many combinations. I would imagine if you sat down and wrote 10 emails that covered all of the combinations that you could think about, you could have a pretty detailed response to someone that would then again compel them the next step down the path towards coming in for a flower review or whatever it would be.
Betsey: Flower review yes.
\n\nStuart: That's the one with not being too into the subject, did you kind of? The framework of the idea is very clear and very successful and very the details might get lost in the language Exactly.
\n\nBetsey: Don't worry about that.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, go ahead so yeah, I was just going to wrap up that first example because again I ran long slightly and got carried away on that particular example. But so, white labeling a book, let's just quickly recap and then we'll go on to white labeling the service briefly. So, white labeling the book, we want. You, as the white labeler, are selling the service to the clients that you work with, so the people in the business that you're writing about. So if you coach florists, it's the florist that you're selling to, not the florist's clients, not the end consumers. So to build that white label package, you've got to make it worthwhile and appealing to the florists themselves. But in order for the project to be successful, it also needs to work for the end user, for the clients. So, in terms of writing it and then executing on the white label projects, you need something that's valuable but relatively generic and universal, and something where there's an obvious call to action and obvious next step that the end users can take in order to identify themselves as potential clients. So that way you can sell the idea of the project, the idea of the white label book you can sell out to the florist clients and they can see some value because they can see the asset that will be created in a way that would be difficult for them to do themselves, or constantly or time consuming, and they can see that there's a clear step to the end product.
\nOne other thing that I'll quickly mention, and then we'll move on, is photos. So very often we're suggesting not putting the author's photo on the front, because to the end user, who cares what the author looks like? That's not the thing. Well, what we're trying to do is interrupt them and say, hey, you're thinking about this, here's a solution to your problem. And the whole cover is dedicated that first step. The only time where that sometimes varies is in this white label project idea, because you, as the white labeler, are actually your clients. The people who pay you money are the florists. You need to do whatever you can to sell that project. So not only does it need to be successful from a marketing point of view and it can clearly drive leads, but if you can also push their buttons, their vanity buttons, a little bit, then that's not bad either. That's just gonna add a little bit more. That might be the 1% that gets them over the line. One way of doing that might be to include their photo on the front. So usually we wouldn't do that or wouldn't suggest it. But if you can imagine white labeling, a book that said how to get $10,000 worth of flowers on a $1,000 budget and a nice picture of a wedding bouquet on the front and then in the bottom there's a picture of the florist and their name, then, because the florist are paying you for the project and they see their name on the front of it, that might be enough to well, not might be enough. Hopefully the whole project is gonna be enough for them to see the value in it, but that also might be an additional thing that gets them over the line.
\nI was gonna remember going to Tony Robbins' events years and years ago back in the early 2000s. So this was the three day weekend events, the UPW event that they're still doing now and in that they were selling the bigger programs, so the week long programs at the various events, and as part of it there was the various tiers and at the top tier, which was expensive, and I think this was like $10,000 plus maybe for this is back in the early 2000s for all of the programs. But as part of this VIP club there was also a hat like a baseball cap with like what. I can remember what the words were on the front of it, but this cool looking black baseball cap. I can remember actually sitting there thinking, oh man, that'd be cool to have that hat like separating out the complete value of the program or the dollar of investment.
\nOh man, look at that hat. I mean it's something, but anyway, no one's immune from that type of thing, so yeah.
Betsey: No yeah.
\n\nStuart: Consider putting their picture on the front, because it might be the black hat example.
\n\nBetsey: Right, exactly.
\n\nStuart: Okay.
\n\nBetsey: Next up is white labeling the service.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, white labeling the service, so this is less frequent. So we've got a couple of people that we've done and are doing this with. So this is for organizations that have got more of a. It's a higher cost product at the end of the day.
\nWhite labeling a effectively white labeling a 90 minute book where you allow your clients to write anything and they just have us execute it that's obviously a high price point for them, because if it was an idea that they had themselves, they could Google, they'd find us and they'd say our price is listed on the website. So you need to be able to add enough value that you can get something from this as well. That makes the whole white labeling worthwhile. Otherwise, it would make more sense just to say to them hey, you should write a book and I've worked with 90 minute books before. They're a great partner. You should just go across there, that's, and then we'll just take it from there. White labeling the service means that what we're really looking to do is orchestrate a framework that we then execute in a way that's kind of discrete but not invisible. So we never say that we can be invisible. If nothing else, our email address is saying 90 minute books we're easy enough to find.
\nEven if you Google our names, you'll probably find us. So that's why we say discrete, because what we do with the white label project is set up dedicated landing pages and have specific funnels to onboard people in a very co-branded way between you as the white label and us as the executor. So the way that it works very well is if you have a framework already. So let's say, for example, going back to the florist example, at a lower tier level, you've got a white label book option which is hey, pay this amount of money and then you can put your name on the front and your phone number on the back and we'll point people to your website and that's the low cost entry to the white label book that you wrote for your florist clients. The next tier up the service tier might be that as a florist marketer, you have a very specific system in place. So you've got the email funnel dialed in. You've got some landing pages based on various criteria that you know people are interested in. You've got a kind of a hack to the system that you know, as a florist, makes a difference across the board. So it could be in the way that you arrange the flowers or the composition or the sourcing. Something about it makes your marketing strategy unique to other florist coaches. And as part of that framework, as part of your framework, you wanna suggest people write a book, but you know that they could write it on various different situation circumstances. So just a white label book isn't good enough, but your book writing framework for florists might be.
We always want to start with the introduction, which is a background to you how you got into floral arrangement, why you're passionate about flowers in this area and all of the people that you've been able to help. Then you want to talk about the working in the northeast means that a lot of people come wanting these particular arrangements that they see in Instagram, but all of the influencers are in California. Those flowers just aren't available over here. But we've worked and have worked out the Massachusetts equivalent of all of these Instagrammer's influencers images so we can help create that model. And then in the book, talk about a framework of how you set that up for you particular, how you have sourced those flowers, how you interpret the design and then whatever the closes and the call to action around your thing. So white labeling the service as knowing what that structure is, what the framework is that the book hangs on. We can then bring the clients through, asking them those very similar questions that mirror your exact framework.
\nSo by white labeling the service, you're allowing people to write the book that resonates with them on whichever particular topic. It is broader than just the white label book, but you're doing it within a very controlled framework and we're just executing it in the background. That also then allows you to sell it for a higher price point. So typically our books are in the kind of three to $6,000 range. To complete, you might have a $6,000 to $10,000 program that includes writing a book but also has a number of follow on sequences. So the auto responders and the landing pages and all of these other elements built for them as part of your bigger program. So does that difference make sense? White labeling the service versus white labeling the book?
Betsey: It does and I think you know I mean both are great options. Just depends on where you are, I think you know, in your business or with your specific group. But it really is such a way for someone to get a book out there and not have to put in all the work you know.
\nA lot of our clients are super busy and so that's one of the things you know. We look at Marvin Mitchell husband, he's white label, he's talking. We get quite a bit of traffic from them and they're just, they're all just people who are busy and they don't have time to do it, but they want that tool and they want, you know, they want that tool, you know, for marketing purposes, and so it really is a great way to you know to do it.
Stuart: And it's potentially a stepping stone to something later. I mean having the white label book version now. So you've got something that's out, there, it's. You can almost test all of the funnels and emails and the follow up campaigns and lay all of the track with a white label product and then, if you previously self that it's effective, you've got the opportunity to really dial it in for the specific market that the white label book doesn't come out, the white label book doesn't cover. So the $10,000 of wedding flowers for a thousand on a thousand dollar budget, that's great for that particular funnel.
\nBut if you also know that you do a whole stack of work in corporate flowers or event flowers or funeral flowers, the white label book isn't going to work for that. But you'll have laid the track and then freed up some mind space to think about OK, if I was going to write it in this other area, then what could that look like? And also might save you from things like we were saying before. They're over complicating it Because if you just go into a book from scratch, it's very easy as we started off by saying, it's very easy to over engineer and try and do too much and lose the site of the job of work. If you know the success you've had from the white labeled florist book, the white labeled wedding flowers book, then you've got much more, much more awareness of the reality of the situation and what the almost the minimum effective dose is in order to not over complicate the one that you actually come to do and not find yourself kind of stuck in a project that's lasting years and costing an unlimited budget, as you keep refining it and adding more, changing things around. That's right. Yeah, I'd say that the white label, if you're as you're listening to this if you've got any coaching organization or any marketing organization where you're doing the work for people and you've got multiple clients in a similar industry so there's that kind of that synergy or economy of scale a white label book. And so even if you've I mean, we've been we were saying in the podcast last week we've been doing this for just coming up on 10 years now and 1000 books.
\nSo even if you wrote a book a number of years ago and you've used it, but you're thinking, you know, like white label this and other people would use it as well, I could get some additional revenue from it being wider, particularly for anyone. When you think about like financial advisors, florists, pt people, anyone where they're geographically constrained, I mean this is a fantastic idea because 100% utilization of your business is going to be like a 50 mile footprint. As soon as you go outside of that to the rest of the tens of thousands of miles that are in the country, you could be getting additional revenue, not from clients because you can't serve them, but from helping other people have some the success you've had from your book. So yeah, if you've got any sized organization, if you've got an existing book where you know there are other people who would be would be able to make use of it in their markets, then white label book is a very easy way of getting that additional revenue. And the complexity of the actual project itself can vary from very simple to needlessly complicated, but it's much more straightforward. The white label service one is for a subset, a pretty unique subset of people who have very much got a definite framework themselves and they've got quite a big client group. All can charge a substantial amount of money that makes it worthwhile, but a white label book certainly recommend that for most people, to begin with at least.
Betsey: Absolutely.
\n\nStuart: Cool. Well, I think we did the white label subject yeah, that's great.
\n\nBetsey: I think, yeah, people listening, hopefully our clients that have already. They, like you said, you've written a book, it's there, you've been using it, you're ready to take the next step, like, okay, this is, I want to offer this to people. Let us know we're. You know that's an exciting thing to do and it's fun to see how many other authors come on board and you know, with the white label project so.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, definitely, if you just send an email to either support a 90 minute books or to me at Stuart S T U ART Stuart at 90 minute books, and we can jump on a call and just smash out some of the details. But yeah, it's exciting and of all of the people that we've seen do this, I think that I mean some of them have had more success than others. Obviously, I don't think anyone's been disappointed in the project. I think some of them have been relieved that we've helped them simplify and streamline it, but it is a pretty quick process to get set up Cool.
\n\nBetsey: Okay.
\n\nStuart: Well, thank you for your time. It's always better and everyone thanks for listening. Definitely, if you're interested in white labeling, just shoot as an email. Or if white labeling is not for you but you do have a book that you're waiting to get started, then now is definitely a great time to do it, as everyone's getting back to the office after the summer. Things are picking up again as we head in towards the fall. So, yeah, just reach out to us at support 90 minute books or head over to the website and we're here waiting to help. Okay, thank you, and we'll speak in the next one.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, Betsey & I talk about the idea of using your book outside of the clients you can personally help, by white labeling it, allowing others to use a version in their marketing, and obviously pay you for the service!\r\n\r\nThis works especially well if you are a business coach or have clients already paying you to help with their marketing, but it can work for anyone who has a book, or can create something business owners would pay to use.\r\n\r\nWe wrapped up talking about when it makes sense to take this a step further and white label the actual 90-Minute Book process. If you have a framework that helps people find more clients, and a book would help that success, then white labeling the 90-Minute Book process could be a great way you can help your clients create that book.\r\n\r\nIt was fun to dive deeper on a topic we're help more & more people with.","date_published":"2022-09-16T16:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/e362d4df-f433-408d-8521-9e5b6b613248.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":45870141,"duration_in_seconds":2826}]},{"id":"0c316284-b821-4808-a66b-60fc2dbc5ff4","title":"Ep115: Should You Write a Book for Your Business","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/115","content_text":"Today on the Book More Show I caught up with Dean Jackson at the studio to talk about some of the reasons you should be writing a book for your business.\n\nDean & I talk every day, but we don't make enough time to record, so it's always great when we get opportunity to sit down and go deep into some of the ideas.\n\nWe talk about why a book is the best tool to find people you can work with, how to think about starting a conversation rather than selling a product, and the pitfalls to avoid if you're looking for the benefits of having a book without the traps of traditional publishing.\n\nIf you're listening to this in the podcast feed, definitely checkout the show at 90.minutebooks.com/podcast/115 to watch the video.\n\n\n\n\n\nLINKS\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/115\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. My name is Stuart Bell and today I caught up with Dean Jackson here at the studio to talk about some of the reasons why you should be writing a book for your business. It's a great conversation. Dean and I obviously talking every day, but we rarely make enough time to sit down and record, so it's great to have this opportunity to dive into the ideas in a little bit more depth than we usually get a chance to share with people. So a great show. \n\nWe talk about why a book is still the best tool to help you find people you can work with. We looked at how to think about it as starting a conversation rather than selling a product, and we dived into as well the pitfalls to avoid If you're really looking for the benefits of having a book without all of the traps and problems with traditional publishing. So a lot of great ideas, some great insights to take away. If you're listening to this on the podcast feed, also suggest checking out the show notes at bookmoreshow for episodes 115, because we've got the video that we recorded of the session up on the web page so you can watch along. Okay, with that, let's dive into the show. \n\nDean: So I thought it'd be a good idea for you and I to talk about how to help people know whether it makes sense for them to write a book to grow their business. \n\nStuart: That's easy. \n\nDean: Yes, you know, this is something. We've been doing this now for maybe 10 years Is that right, almost 10 years. We've helped over a thousand people write books to grow their business. We've got some amazing hits with that and I've been such an advocate for these small books that can really grow your business. And when you think about the modeling by example, when we look at the 90 minute book as the perfect example of how to use a book to grow your business, we're not doing we're not kind of convincing people to do something that we haven't done ourselves. You know exactly it's. \n\nStuart: that evidence based brief of this is exactly what's built this entire business. \n\nDean: So when people talk about or going through the process of deciding whether they should write a book, whether they could use a book for their business, I really it comes down to three things. The three questions that they need to know is how long is it going to take me to write a book? That's one thing that people want to know is how much does it cost to do this and what's it worth? What's the upside of having a book like that? \n\nStuart: That last point is almost the one that people forget to ask a lot of the time, because they get so caught up in the process of doing it. They forget about the purpose, the job of work. Why are we doing it? Yeah, and when you add that into the equation as well particularly I mean we've got 20 or 30 books around here, but hundreds at the office when you think that the majority of the lifetime value of these clients is in the thousands of dollars, and it really puts in perspective all of the other questions. \n\nDean: Yeah, I mean, when you look at so you look at this one book this has, let's say, driven millions of dollars over the life of doing it One little book. We've got other books that I personally use in my own businesses that have generated millions of dollars, all from these small little books. So I think you said it, a good thing is to think about the job of work. Why are we even having a conversation about writing a book? And so often I think people get this misconception that they've got misguided objectives. Yeah, and sometimes they think when they think about writing a book, they think about writing this big book that's going to be a New York Times bestseller or an Amazon or Wall Street Journal bestseller. That's their goal and we've you've known, and I know personally, so many people that have gone through the process of writing a book, working so hard to try and get it on the New York Times bestseller list. \n\nStuart: How is it a great, how is it a great point. \n\nDean: And let's not forget that it literally you're not just going to write a book and it's going to get discovered and catapult to the top of the New York Times bestseller list. Yeah, if you're going to write a bestseller, you've got to have a budget for doing that in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. You've got to have a platform with reach to at least 100,000 people. \n\nStuart: When you look at publishing contracts, it's like music contracts publishers traditional publishers want to take on clients who have got that reach already Right. So to have that is an excluding factor. Yeah, the success of others is based on work done outside of book. I often talk about what's the product. Product of a book, like the 90 minute book or Selmo listener, isn't the book itself. I'm gonna sell this on Amazon for ten dollars, right, because this is going up against other ten dollar Right, and the value proposition to make that sale is Not what you're interested in. You're interested in client. The product of this book is a client, yeah, the book itself, and that's. People think about publishing in the writing book in the traditional sense, for the traditional reason. \n\nDean: So I think if your goal, if you're famous Already right and you've got lots of money and you've got a lot of time and it doesn't really it's the objective is that you want to get more famous or get more sort of what's the right word, it's, in a way, credibility. There's something that comes with being a New York Times best-selling author. It's absolutely true. You can't deny it. If there's somebody who's got a book that's a New York Times bestseller, you're gonna look at them differently. You're going to be able to forever introduced as New York Times best-selling author Stewart Bell. Now, if you're not already famous, if you're not already a big deal and you've got lots of reach and people know you are, you've got relationships with people who have reached to millions or hundreds of thousands of people to help you get to that point when you've got to sell 40,000 books in the first week, or so to get on the list right. \n\nSo you think about how many people have to know about your book to get to that, and you've seen the pattern right. Like people, they spend all this time writing the book, going through editing, doing all of these things, getting on every podcast. Imagine if you're, if you have popular Podcasts that you listen to yeah especially in the business arena or in the personal development arena, you can tell when somebody's got a book coming out, because they're on all your favorite podcast Telling the same damn story. \n\nYeah, this time the same things. And in the book, pre-order your book. It's available now on Amazon. Go ahead and yeah, you'll buy bulk copies and give to your friends all these things to try and Push the books. Yeah, it's like payola, isn't they? Well, that's exactly what it is. So if I look at it, that goes into my equation of what is it actually worth to you. So if you do that, your first time author, maybe you can sell the book and get some Advance on the book. But you're not gonna get rich on a book. You got to have a back end, you got to have something there. \n\nSo I would say that for certain people, it might make sense to go down that path. Right where you're concerned, if you're not already famous, you're not already gonna get a big advance for writing this book, because everybody wants to hear from you. Then You're faced with the choice of Do you want to use a book To get rich or to get famous? Right, and that's the choice. That's the fundamental thing that we want to Think, and I always say to people listen, it's way less expensive to get rich than it is to get famous. So let's focus on getting you rich, first right, and then building your platform and Then getting famous, then writing your next book. It's like starting out. There's nobody stopping you right now. \n\nLike, if you think, 20 years ago, there were probably Six publishing houses that made all the decisions on who gets to see, who gets their message out into the world. Because you had to. They were the gatekeepers. They were the gatekeepers. That's exactly right. You had to be. You had to submit to a publisher and get approved for your book. Please, sir, can I spread my message to the world? Nope, I Mean. \n\nStuart: And then where do you go? I? \n\nDean: got rejected by a thousand publishers here. All these stories, right, but I kept going in that thousand and first publisher Open the door for me to go. Well, you know, fast forward. Now there's no, there's nobody stopping you from writing a book. You can write any book that you want, yeah, and you can get it right to the people Place, where the people are. \n\nSo what I look at for it, you know, is it worth? It is the way for business owners, people who are using this as a Tool to grow your business, to build your reach to, because that's really what it is. If we take it and Overlay the eight profit activators on this book and we think about your book as a before unit tool Just to get you in conversation with the people who could potentially be your clients, then there's no better tool than a book. A book is compelling. I mean, we look at the, we look at the, we look at the timing here of what it takes to get a book started, get out into the world there, but what the value of being able to use that book to gather your audience? So I say to people like, what would it be worth if we could magically Snap our fingers and have a thousand people who are your ideal clients on a list that you could directly email them and you think about it as a way of connecting with people who are invisible prospects, because a lot of times you have to look at and see can't is my Audience that I'm trying to reach. \n\nAre they Reachable? Are they visible? Can I buy a list of them? If you're serving chiropractors, you can get a list of chiropractors and go right to them. If you're searching for Dentists, you can go directly to the dentist, but what you can't get a list of is Somebody who just twisted their back last night. Right, the chiropractors clients are Invisible. Yeah, you know any doctor like that. You know, buddy, is there a cute onset symptoms that, up until the moment that it happens, people have no interest in it? You know, I think about. \n\nStuart: Chris, not the audience. \n\nDean: I think about dr Chris milky, the podiatrist. You know, like you think how excited, what in the world would a podiatrist write a book about? But he's actually got a series now that we're working on five books where you think about what, what would be valuable. The first one we did was the planter fasciitis solution. I, so you can get you know if you are a localized business that's serving a local market, like a podiatrist or a dentist or chiropractor, hairstylist, massage there, anything that's doing working with people locally within a. You know we talk about that. What we're really trying to do is get 15 mile famous. You want to be famous in the 15 miles around where you, where you are right. So if you think about it like that, take a radius around your podiatry practice and you think, well, what are the big things that people come to me for? Right, like, what are the things that people have a need that would trigger them to call a podiatrist in the first place? So we've thought about the big five things of Achilles, keel pain, planter fasciitis, bunions, toe fungus you know I forget what the other one is, but the big things that they have and we. \n\nSo we take this and we do a book like the planter fasciitis solution, and put it in front of the people within 15 miles of his podiatry practice. And all of a sudden it comes through their newsfeed on Facebook as an offer for a book that's going to promise a solution for the pain that they're having right now. And so people download the book, they opt in, they leave their name and email. They don't even have to fill anything out. Now with Facebook, it's so easy to get in front of your ideal prospect. So they push a button, it collects their name, their email and you've got now a visible prospect. \n\nI was imagined. I say to people you know, if you think about your book and the opt in for it as a portal, a magic portal to your office, if you could. Somebody downloads the book, they press, yes, I want this, and that magically transports them. They knock on your door, poke their head in hey, I'm here about the planter fasciitis solution. Yeah, now how would, if you could, have that happen a thousand times in real life in real life, however much you do. \n\nStuart: How much would that be worth? So? \n\nDean: if you knew that we're typically the sweet spot for books like this would be that we could generate those leads for three to $5 per person, so for $5,000, you could have a thousand people on a list that are self-selected as people who have planter fasciitis. \n\nNobody's going to download a book about planter fasciitis without having planter fasciitis or laying beside someone who's got it. Their wife would do it, or the husband or your kid may have it. Whatever it is, somebody who loves somebody who's got that solution is going to download that book. And now you're in a conversation. So the purpose of the book is to get somebody in conversation with you and that's really the only job of work of the book. \n\nStuart: Exactly Breaking it down into the eight-part factor frameworks of this is a before-unit tool to get people to begin the journey. That's something we spend a lot of time helping people understand, because the clients that we have typically know us in some respect already, so they've got some understanding of what we're trying to do Rarely get people who are although we do get some looking for that. You know time, speciality, all the job work, but understanding that it's the first step in the process and the process has the opportunity to run over multiple years. Knowing the example you talk about a lot of the 15% versus the 85% I was just going to say that. \n\nDean: So if I look at, what is that 1,000 prospects worth? And it's a good number, it's a big. Now you can do it with 100. You think about like, if you've got something, it's inconceivable If you have 100 people knock on your door and say I'm here about the plantar fasciitis solution, you've got to be able to help some of those people. So you get 100 of them for $500. How much is one patient worth to do that? It could be well over $1,000. And the lifetime value of that client is going to be even bigger. \n\nBut if you're a real estate agent or you're a coach or you're a consultant of some kind that you're offering information or consulting or services, those things could be worth thousands of dollars to people. So we look at and say what is that bundle of a thousand leads worth? And I try and get people to think about this asset that they're collecting as just that, as an asset. That bundle of a thousand, that portfolio I use all these financial terms to describe them because that's really what they are is an asset. And so now we look at that and you wouldn't expect that if you were to buy look at all the equipment that it took to make this studio here, buying all the cameras, all the sound proofing, the audio, the computers, everything like that. If you took an expense-based approach to this, it's like you wouldn't dream that you're going to expend all this money to build this and then immediately that you need to buy 30 days later make all the money to pay for it, but that's the way people think about their ad spend. \n\nThey think about because they've been sold. That dream that you're going to run the ads, you're going to generate the leads, you're going to pound them with your gauntlet series, you're going to get them to buy and you're going to make more money than the ads cost by the time the credit card bill is due. And if it didn't work out like that? \n\nStuart: then it wasn't successful. \n\nDean: So what I try and do is get people to take this portfolio approach and if you think about making a capital investment of $5,000 in this group of a thousand prospects, now if we take that over the next 100 weeks, we amortize the investment over 100 weeks, how many of those 1000 people could we help? And you were mentioning about the 15% and the 85%. There was something that's been like a game changer for me is understanding the psychology of what's actually going on when people inquire about something, and I found a company this was 25 years ago when I really started going deep in lead conversion, lead management, and there was a company called the Inquiry Handling Service and they handled on an enterprise level, millions of leads a year for corporations that would run those reader service cards or people go to trade shows and request literature on their website, and they did something that was brilliant. They did what they called. Did you buy surveys? And so they would go back 18 months and they would call people who inquired about something and they would just ask them one question. They'd say, stuart, you came to the home show. You inquired about faucets. Have you bought any faucets? Not, did you buy our Kohler faucets or what's it going to take me itch in some Kohler faucets today? Not just asking did you buy what it was you inquired about? To buy a car, did you buy refrigerated? Did you buy whatever it was? \n\nAnd what they found was that at the 18 month mark, just over half of the people that inquire about anything will buy what it is they inquired about within that 18 month. \n\nRight. But when they did the math, when they did the surveys at 90-day increments, only 15 percent of them Will buy in the first 90 days. So the value is in the long term. Right, then there's five times More value beyond 90 days than in the first 90 days. So you're building a stable Asset that's going to yield they were using these words. It's going to be the foundation of your business there, right. So you build that list, you get it to a thousand, you continually grow it and you build systems around how to introduce your services, your products, your help, that you can work with people, and the cost is a multiple, or the yield is a multiple, of what you Spend to do that see it all the time in the, in the book business, in Entrepreneur business, and at the same message every month to people who have been on the list for 10, 15 years Are you ready to get started? \n\nStuart: Oh, this is from that group every single time people raise the hand. Yeah. \n\nDean: I forgot about that. But every month on the first of the month, we send out a message, just yeah, hey, sir, would you like to get started on your book this month too? And we've got thousands of people on that list and every month we ask them the same question. And Every month five or six people jump immediately kind of yes, because it's now cool. \n\nStuart: But it's now for them, and that's the thing. There's their check moves, the one by selling book by Michael Gleason. So he talks about check moves and as the Sales person, as the person in the business, you can never know when time is for the person. It's entirely their decision. Your job is just to present the opportunities. They're now. \n\nDean: You know what I've discovered is that's the thing, that there's only two timeframes there's now and not now. Right, anytime that's not now is. If it's not now, it's doesn't matter whether it's 90 days or 90 months. Right now it's just not nice, it's we, the whole thing that we're pursuing. We're constantly in this pursuit of now, and so when you send a message, you know Luba, my girlfriend for amazing brows and lashes her studio here in Winterhaven. She, at the beginning of every month, sends out a message. I stir it. Would you like to get your eyebrows done this month? Why, yes, we know every time. \n\nStuart: So there's something and knowing that you're sending that message to the group of people who are already interested. It's not like every month you're running an ad saying, cave, you'd like to get your eyebrows done, come in. And so you're building the rapport relationship with the people who have self-selected Because they've opted into the thing that peak their interest in the first play that what it piqued their interest. \n\nDean: But it also bookmarked their intention that anybody who downloads a book called the plantar fasciitis solution that was modeled after one we did with Luba called the adult acne solution, and that's kind of the whole thing. Anybody who downloads a book called the adult acne solution is Presumably someone who has adult acne and would like to not have Right. So when you get that person on a list they're gonna it's not a Acute onset and go away type of thing. It's something that is ongoing and unless they do something about it, nothing's going to happen. It's only gonna get worse. So when they go ahead and try something else, if they try Some chemical thing, they try something and see that doesn't work or that it works but then it doesn't maintain right that now, at some point in that thing they're ready to it comes around and they go. You know, maybe I'm ready now. Now I should look at this solution. \n\nSo that's the thing when I say to, when I'm Help the people understand what it's worth for them to have a book. It's not so much about the what the book itself is worth, it's what's the value of the people that the book will get you in contact with, and I love this way. You know, we both use that term of the job of work, of the book, and that's what do you if you are hiring the book to do something. If if the only job it did was to get a thousand people to knock on the door and say, hey, I'm interested in this. That has done its job. \n\nNow, in order to do that job, I it doesn't have to be a big book. That's the thing, right? I'm a huge fan of the, what I call and what is known as the minimum effective dose, and I'm fascinated by that concept because what it's looking is what's the minimum amount of something that gets the desired outcome, where anything extra is not really helping do the job. Like, if you can write a 50 page book, 60 page, 70 page book, that gets the job done. There's no advantage to having a 250 page book to do the same job of work. It's like such a. \n\nStuart: It's wasted effort in the book itself and it's wasted opportunity because the rest of that content knows additional 200 pages. That's almost certainly another book to engage in the audience. \n\nDean: Let's put this right here so you can see I bookend these conversations about can a short book, a little book, have a big impact? And the ones that use two examples of this. I didn't have the other one, but here's a little book that was pretty much a revolution starter when you say the communist manifesto very thin but big impact. \n\nI would say and I bookend that with the common sense by Thomas Paine, which is the book that really started the counter mechanism to that of capitalism and democracy, and that you think about. Those two books are short, they're small little books but I guarantee that your idea if you're thinking about writing a book is gonna fit somewhere between those two. You're not gonna have a book that's that big of a revolution starter. But if you've got a book that's gonna gather all the people without all that all the people with plantar fasciitis or whatever you're gonna call you look at it and you think about if you sell a course on writing and you've got a book called Read this If you Want to Be a Great Writer, if anybody, if you could get a list of a thousand people that have downloaded voluntarily a book called Read this If you Want to Be a Great Writer. \n\nStuart: It's pretty self-selecting. \n\nDean: It's pretty self-selecting, right, so that becomes the value there, and I'm just such a big fan of it, you know. \n\nStuart: Yeah, there's Kevin's 60-second sales hook. So again similar thing, small book, just talking, just introducing ideas. \n\nDean: He gets him in front of people who are. He works with copywriters and that's kind of the thing that you're promising a shortcut, right, promising a shortcut to people. And that gets him in conversation with people who are writers, who are aspiring to persuade people by copy. So you know, here's the thing. That kind of I really think about with the short book kind of thing is what I offset all that information with is that demo and the job will work, is that we want them. We just want it to gather leads and we're going to take it from there. \n\nI don't care whether somebody actually reads the book, right, and it's not about reading the book, it's about raising their hand to say that they want the solution or what it indicates, what they're looking for. So when I read, there was an article in the New York Times that talked about the state of readership and it was really fascinating because it was one of the first times that they had the Kindle and Kobo data to see what actually happens and what they found was that I want to say 58 percent it was over 50 percent of the people who buy a book never open it. Okay, so you think about that. It's like if half the people let's just be conservative on that that half the people that buy a book will never open it, and you think that's absolutely true, like in your own life. Every time I'm speaking to hundreds of people and I'll ask them have you ever bought a book and not opened it? Yeah, and every single one of us has. We've got a whole collection of things. \n\nStuart: And that's self behind. \n\nDean: Yes, but there's. The thing is, who's buying the book or asking for the book is it's easy to consume, easy to make that decision, but they're always buying it for future Dean. Yeah, they're thinking I don't have time to read it, but maybe future Dean would be nice for future Dean to curl up with a coffee and read this book by the fire. \n\nRight, because you think about what it takes for people to read a book. It takes hours to read a big this commitment. Yeah, dan Sullivan, founder of strategic coach, we always talk about the short books. The perfect length for a book is that you can sit down on a flight from Toronto to Chicago and finish the whole book in one airplane flight. Yeah, that's what we're looking for. That's the odds that somebody's going to do it way up on that. Yeah. \n\nStuart: You know, because otherwise it sits on shelf and then something else gets put on top of it and then it's disappeared. Yeah, we talk about people actually reading the book and very much people think about writing a book in the traditional sense. Yeah, it's very much about the words and the contents. But I'll often say to people that the person who's buying it, so those readership rates, the people who, broadly speaking, have brought entertainment based books from Amazon with job of work, the purpose of being entertained, they still haven't read it. But these books, people are buying the solution. Someone buying a book on plantar fasciitis isn't doing it for an academic exercise, right? They don't want the knowledge, they want the solution. They want to get from the cover and the title that identifies to them that there is a solution to the back cover of what our next step is. They just want to get to the solution. Don't make me do the work of having to read something. Yeah, it's the outcome. \n\nDean: So if you've got a thing, if you've got anything that you can do, that is that information would help, or if you could gather, if you've got invisible prospects, you can get in front of them by helping put a title. That would be exactly what they want. And that's so much of getting making sure that it works. Is you just got to have a book, you got to have a title that, upon reading it, your ideal prospect says I want that, right, that's for me. And then you got to have a way for them to get it Like a, really reach them. And that's, I mean. \n\nFacebook ads are right now the easiest, lowest friction, fastest action acting way. Literally, you could put up an ad today and have leads today, right away. Yeah, you know, from small budget, you know $20 a day or whatever you go up, but it's just going to accelerate it If you can spend $100 a day or $200 a day once you get your system figured out that the goal is to get to that 1000 benchmark and then build the relationship with them. So that's how we would kind of evaluate what it's worth, what it could be worth to you. Then you know in terms of asking or answering the question about how long does it take and how much does it cost. Is you know how long does it take, preferably? You've been working on this your entire life, or your entire adult life. You've gathered insight, information, something that would be valuable to convey to your ideal prospects. So you're. It's not that you need to figure out what you're going to write. You've got it in your head. \n\nStuart: Yeah, you're not starting research. Everything is there, that's exactly right. \n\nDean: It's just a matter of getting it from your brain out into a digital format, right? And the fastest way to get anything from your brain into a digital format is through your mouth, thank you. Nobody gets talkers block. Everybody talks about getting writers buck. They sit down, stare at that blank page and they don't know what to do. Yeah, don't know what to write, but if you, if we, you know we help people break it down into the process, we're literally you can do it in 90 minutes. You know we. \n\nThe way we set everything up is we imagine that you are a guest on a radio show. We provide that environment for you will sit down, have a conversation, just like this. I'm asking you, setting you up for the questions. That would be the outline and chapters of the book. You talk about them. We get that transcribed, edit that into the book, create a wonderful cover for you and put it all together and literally 30 days from the time you start, depending on how you're doing there, you can have at least the digital version of your book ready to go right, have physical copies of your book and, just in case you want to send physical copies to people as well. So the time investment compared to going down the traditional book route of Sitting down manually typing out the words is so soul-crushing yeah, and take so much time Going back to high school and having been assigned Work that you have to do and you can't escape, and doing something passion project. \n\nYes, exactly time so we look at that and say, you know, yeah, cutting that timeline Down, where your real involvement is only in Brainstorming, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna get the title to be? We'll do a whole other thing, just about book titles. But looking at the, looking at that outcome Amazing, right, like the time of it compared to where you got to go through. And we're gonna, you're gonna write the book, you're gonna send it to an editor, you're gonna get it, you know, edited. You're gonna. \n\nStuart: You work with a ghost writer, you're gonna and on all of those, all of the people involved in that process, so passing the responsibility back to you. So, even if people think that it's an easy job to do, all of those decisions are coming back and for most of us, adding more decisions and people asking questions to our plate is necessarily the idea I come. It's the other benefit of a short book that's got a single job of work. Yeah, because you're not in the book. \n\nBlueprint scorecard that we've got that talks about the mindsets of how to write a book like this, one of those mindsets is beneficial constraint and this idea that blesses more of Constraining yourself to answering the one or two questions that are the most pressing for this group of people and not getting sucked Into all of the other stuff, because if you've been in business for more than a year, you could write ten thousand pages and the stuff that you know, yeah, and the stuff that other people don't, but you just bite in yourself into a hole if you don't have those constraints, yeah so that's, there's the time. \n\nDean: And then how much does it cost? You know, for the, our signature product right now, $2,000. Yeah, it's a do the. This is what the 90-minute book looks like, right there. This is a perfect example. This is an example of a book that's generated millions of dollars. \n\nWe've helped over a thousand people write their books in this model. And this is the start. You can see it's. How many pages are we out here? This one's 43 pages is all it is, but it looks like a book. It's a real book and you can download it for free at 90 minute books Dot com, and when you do that will get send you also this. We've got a worksheet called Book title formulas and we got an audio that kind of goes with. This walks you through how to create the best title for your book, and that whole thing you know is, you know from beginning to end. Again, for $2,000 and less than 30 days, you've got the tool that can get people knocking on your door right away, starting those conversations. So if you say, for I Think that if you look at comparable services, if you're gonna use that service to write a book, that they're primarily looking to help you write a bestseller or to get it on Amazon bestseller which is so it's all it's Nonsense. \n\nI mean in terms of there's no value in having an Amazon bestseller or anything like that compared to getting your ideal Prospects in your right in the go zone of who you're looking for the funny thing about Amazon it's people don't realize that you've got no way of knowing who those people are. \n\nStuart: You sell a thousand books and maybe make a $1,000 off the book sales by the time. \n\nDean: All the cost of your royalties of $2 and you're paying back your advance. \n\nStuart: Yeah, so you could get a thousand leads. Yeah. The reason that we keep the signature type of book in the lineup is because it is that absolute, perfect minimum File commitment. Start if money's. We're trying to democratize this through as many people as possible, so if you've got bigger budget, you can do more things, make it and improve it you start. \n\nDean: I think about it as version one. Think about let's get the book if you're, if you've got a you know I love Joe Polish and I had Tucker max on the I love marketing podcast. They've got a what I would call like the Cadillac service of book writing right scribed me. It's a fantastic service if you're gonna write get famous kind of thing. \n\nBut you know you're talking over $30,000 to do this up to yeah by the time everything is done, and I'd rather see you spend that money and that time on. I was stated Tucker I should have. We should have a challenge where we take somebody from today yeah, and you know, fast workers is gonna take months and months to do a scribe book to. \n\nBut to take the same thing right, a 90 minute book spend instead of the $30,000 spend $28,000 on building thousands of leads and selling things to them that you'd come out at six months, hundreds of thousands dollars ahead Versus a hundred thousand dollars out to, to then get started on by the book out in the world. \n\nYeah. So all right, we got a run 90 minute books. Calm, go there, download the book. That's where it all starts. Will give you the book title formulas and you'll you know, you'll be in our world and you'll see Example after example of how to how to get this done. So, in short, I think a book is a fantastic idea. I'm just one, my go-to thing. \n\nStuart: So I think if anyone's asking them, should they do it. Yes. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show I caught up with Dean Jackson at the studio to talk about some of the reasons you should be writing a book for your business.
\n\nDean & I talk every day, but we don't make enough time to record, so it's always great when we get opportunity to sit down and go deep into some of the ideas.
\n\nWe talk about why a book is the best tool to find people you can work with, how to think about starting a conversation rather than selling a product, and the pitfalls to avoid if you're looking for the benefits of having a book without the traps of traditional publishing.
\n\nIf you're listening to this in the podcast feed, definitely checkout the show at 90.minutebooks.com/podcast/115 to watch the video.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/115
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nWe talk about why a book is still the best tool to help you find people you can work with. We looked at how to think about it as starting a conversation rather than selling a product, and we dived into as well the pitfalls to avoid If you're really looking for the benefits of having a book without all of the traps and problems with traditional publishing. So a lot of great ideas, some great insights to take away. If you're listening to this on the podcast feed, also suggest checking out the show notes at bookmoreshow for episodes 115, because we've got the video that we recorded of the session up on the web page so you can watch along. Okay, with that, let's dive into the show.
\n\nDean: So I thought it'd be a good idea for you and I to talk about how to help people know whether it makes sense for them to write a book to grow their business.
\n\nStuart: That's easy.
\n\nDean: Yes, you know, this is something. We've been doing this now for maybe 10 years Is that right, almost 10 years. We've helped over a thousand people write books to grow their business. We've got some amazing hits with that and I've been such an advocate for these small books that can really grow your business. And when you think about the modeling by example, when we look at the 90 minute book as the perfect example of how to use a book to grow your business, we're not doing we're not kind of convincing people to do something that we haven't done ourselves. You know exactly it's.
\n\nStuart: that evidence based brief of this is exactly what's built this entire business.
\n\nDean: So when people talk about or going through the process of deciding whether they should write a book, whether they could use a book for their business, I really it comes down to three things. The three questions that they need to know is how long is it going to take me to write a book? That's one thing that people want to know is how much does it cost to do this and what's it worth? What's the upside of having a book like that?
\n\nStuart: That last point is almost the one that people forget to ask a lot of the time, because they get so caught up in the process of doing it. They forget about the purpose, the job of work. Why are we doing it? Yeah, and when you add that into the equation as well particularly I mean we've got 20 or 30 books around here, but hundreds at the office when you think that the majority of the lifetime value of these clients is in the thousands of dollars, and it really puts in perspective all of the other questions.
\n\nDean: Yeah, I mean, when you look at so you look at this one book this has, let's say, driven millions of dollars over the life of doing it One little book. We've got other books that I personally use in my own businesses that have generated millions of dollars, all from these small little books. So I think you said it, a good thing is to think about the job of work. Why are we even having a conversation about writing a book? And so often I think people get this misconception that they've got misguided objectives. Yeah, and sometimes they think when they think about writing a book, they think about writing this big book that's going to be a New York Times bestseller or an Amazon or Wall Street Journal bestseller. That's their goal and we've you've known, and I know personally, so many people that have gone through the process of writing a book, working so hard to try and get it on the New York Times bestseller list.
\n\nStuart: How is it a great, how is it a great point.
\n\nDean: And let's not forget that it literally you're not just going to write a book and it's going to get discovered and catapult to the top of the New York Times bestseller list. Yeah, if you're going to write a bestseller, you've got to have a budget for doing that in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. You've got to have a platform with reach to at least 100,000 people.
\n\nStuart: When you look at publishing contracts, it's like music contracts publishers traditional publishers want to take on clients who have got that reach already Right. So to have that is an excluding factor. Yeah, the success of others is based on work done outside of book. I often talk about what's the product. Product of a book, like the 90 minute book or Selmo listener, isn't the book itself. I'm gonna sell this on Amazon for ten dollars, right, because this is going up against other ten dollar Right, and the value proposition to make that sale is Not what you're interested in. You're interested in client. The product of this book is a client, yeah, the book itself, and that's. People think about publishing in the writing book in the traditional sense, for the traditional reason.
\n\nDean: So I think if your goal, if you're famous Already right and you've got lots of money and you've got a lot of time and it doesn't really it's the objective is that you want to get more famous or get more sort of what's the right word, it's, in a way, credibility. There's something that comes with being a New York Times best-selling author. It's absolutely true. You can't deny it. If there's somebody who's got a book that's a New York Times bestseller, you're gonna look at them differently. You're going to be able to forever introduced as New York Times best-selling author Stewart Bell. Now, if you're not already famous, if you're not already a big deal and you've got lots of reach and people know you are, you've got relationships with people who have reached to millions or hundreds of thousands of people to help you get to that point when you've got to sell 40,000 books in the first week, or so to get on the list right.
\n\nSo you think about how many people have to know about your book to get to that, and you've seen the pattern right. Like people, they spend all this time writing the book, going through editing, doing all of these things, getting on every podcast. Imagine if you're, if you have popular Podcasts that you listen to yeah especially in the business arena or in the personal development arena, you can tell when somebody's got a book coming out, because they're on all your favorite podcast Telling the same damn story.
\n\nYeah, this time the same things. And in the book, pre-order your book. It's available now on Amazon. Go ahead and yeah, you'll buy bulk copies and give to your friends all these things to try and Push the books. Yeah, it's like payola, isn't they? Well, that's exactly what it is. So if I look at it, that goes into my equation of what is it actually worth to you. So if you do that, your first time author, maybe you can sell the book and get some Advance on the book. But you're not gonna get rich on a book. You got to have a back end, you got to have something there.
\n\nSo I would say that for certain people, it might make sense to go down that path. Right where you're concerned, if you're not already famous, you're not already gonna get a big advance for writing this book, because everybody wants to hear from you. Then You're faced with the choice of Do you want to use a book To get rich or to get famous? Right, and that's the choice. That's the fundamental thing that we want to Think, and I always say to people listen, it's way less expensive to get rich than it is to get famous. So let's focus on getting you rich, first right, and then building your platform and Then getting famous, then writing your next book. It's like starting out. There's nobody stopping you right now.
\n\nLike, if you think, 20 years ago, there were probably Six publishing houses that made all the decisions on who gets to see, who gets their message out into the world. Because you had to. They were the gatekeepers. They were the gatekeepers. That's exactly right. You had to be. You had to submit to a publisher and get approved for your book. Please, sir, can I spread my message to the world? Nope, I Mean.
\n\nStuart: And then where do you go? I?
\n\nDean: got rejected by a thousand publishers here. All these stories, right, but I kept going in that thousand and first publisher Open the door for me to go. Well, you know, fast forward. Now there's no, there's nobody stopping you from writing a book. You can write any book that you want, yeah, and you can get it right to the people Place, where the people are.
\n\nSo what I look at for it, you know, is it worth? It is the way for business owners, people who are using this as a Tool to grow your business, to build your reach to, because that's really what it is. If we take it and Overlay the eight profit activators on this book and we think about your book as a before unit tool Just to get you in conversation with the people who could potentially be your clients, then there's no better tool than a book. A book is compelling. I mean, we look at the, we look at the, we look at the timing here of what it takes to get a book started, get out into the world there, but what the value of being able to use that book to gather your audience? So I say to people like, what would it be worth if we could magically Snap our fingers and have a thousand people who are your ideal clients on a list that you could directly email them and you think about it as a way of connecting with people who are invisible prospects, because a lot of times you have to look at and see can't is my Audience that I'm trying to reach.
\n\nAre they Reachable? Are they visible? Can I buy a list of them? If you're serving chiropractors, you can get a list of chiropractors and go right to them. If you're searching for Dentists, you can go directly to the dentist, but what you can't get a list of is Somebody who just twisted their back last night. Right, the chiropractors clients are Invisible. Yeah, you know any doctor like that. You know, buddy, is there a cute onset symptoms that, up until the moment that it happens, people have no interest in it? You know, I think about.
\n\nStuart: Chris, not the audience.
\n\nDean: I think about dr Chris milky, the podiatrist. You know, like you think how excited, what in the world would a podiatrist write a book about? But he's actually got a series now that we're working on five books where you think about what, what would be valuable. The first one we did was the planter fasciitis solution. I, so you can get you know if you are a localized business that's serving a local market, like a podiatrist or a dentist or chiropractor, hairstylist, massage there, anything that's doing working with people locally within a. You know we talk about that. What we're really trying to do is get 15 mile famous. You want to be famous in the 15 miles around where you, where you are right. So if you think about it like that, take a radius around your podiatry practice and you think, well, what are the big things that people come to me for? Right, like, what are the things that people have a need that would trigger them to call a podiatrist in the first place? So we've thought about the big five things of Achilles, keel pain, planter fasciitis, bunions, toe fungus you know I forget what the other one is, but the big things that they have and we.
\n\nSo we take this and we do a book like the planter fasciitis solution, and put it in front of the people within 15 miles of his podiatry practice. And all of a sudden it comes through their newsfeed on Facebook as an offer for a book that's going to promise a solution for the pain that they're having right now. And so people download the book, they opt in, they leave their name and email. They don't even have to fill anything out. Now with Facebook, it's so easy to get in front of your ideal prospect. So they push a button, it collects their name, their email and you've got now a visible prospect.
\n\nI was imagined. I say to people you know, if you think about your book and the opt in for it as a portal, a magic portal to your office, if you could. Somebody downloads the book, they press, yes, I want this, and that magically transports them. They knock on your door, poke their head in hey, I'm here about the planter fasciitis solution. Yeah, now how would, if you could, have that happen a thousand times in real life in real life, however much you do.
\n\nStuart: How much would that be worth? So?
\n\nDean: if you knew that we're typically the sweet spot for books like this would be that we could generate those leads for three to $5 per person, so for $5,000, you could have a thousand people on a list that are self-selected as people who have planter fasciitis.
\n\nNobody's going to download a book about planter fasciitis without having planter fasciitis or laying beside someone who's got it. Their wife would do it, or the husband or your kid may have it. Whatever it is, somebody who loves somebody who's got that solution is going to download that book. And now you're in a conversation. So the purpose of the book is to get somebody in conversation with you and that's really the only job of work of the book.
\n\nStuart: Exactly Breaking it down into the eight-part factor frameworks of this is a before-unit tool to get people to begin the journey. That's something we spend a lot of time helping people understand, because the clients that we have typically know us in some respect already, so they've got some understanding of what we're trying to do Rarely get people who are although we do get some looking for that. You know time, speciality, all the job work, but understanding that it's the first step in the process and the process has the opportunity to run over multiple years. Knowing the example you talk about a lot of the 15% versus the 85% I was just going to say that.
\n\nDean: So if I look at, what is that 1,000 prospects worth? And it's a good number, it's a big. Now you can do it with 100. You think about like, if you've got something, it's inconceivable If you have 100 people knock on your door and say I'm here about the plantar fasciitis solution, you've got to be able to help some of those people. So you get 100 of them for $500. How much is one patient worth to do that? It could be well over $1,000. And the lifetime value of that client is going to be even bigger.
\n\nBut if you're a real estate agent or you're a coach or you're a consultant of some kind that you're offering information or consulting or services, those things could be worth thousands of dollars to people. So we look at and say what is that bundle of a thousand leads worth? And I try and get people to think about this asset that they're collecting as just that, as an asset. That bundle of a thousand, that portfolio I use all these financial terms to describe them because that's really what they are is an asset. And so now we look at that and you wouldn't expect that if you were to buy look at all the equipment that it took to make this studio here, buying all the cameras, all the sound proofing, the audio, the computers, everything like that. If you took an expense-based approach to this, it's like you wouldn't dream that you're going to expend all this money to build this and then immediately that you need to buy 30 days later make all the money to pay for it, but that's the way people think about their ad spend.
\n\nThey think about because they've been sold. That dream that you're going to run the ads, you're going to generate the leads, you're going to pound them with your gauntlet series, you're going to get them to buy and you're going to make more money than the ads cost by the time the credit card bill is due. And if it didn't work out like that?
\n\nStuart: then it wasn't successful.
\n\nDean: So what I try and do is get people to take this portfolio approach and if you think about making a capital investment of $5,000 in this group of a thousand prospects, now if we take that over the next 100 weeks, we amortize the investment over 100 weeks, how many of those 1000 people could we help? And you were mentioning about the 15% and the 85%. There was something that's been like a game changer for me is understanding the psychology of what's actually going on when people inquire about something, and I found a company this was 25 years ago when I really started going deep in lead conversion, lead management, and there was a company called the Inquiry Handling Service and they handled on an enterprise level, millions of leads a year for corporations that would run those reader service cards or people go to trade shows and request literature on their website, and they did something that was brilliant. They did what they called. Did you buy surveys? And so they would go back 18 months and they would call people who inquired about something and they would just ask them one question. They'd say, stuart, you came to the home show. You inquired about faucets. Have you bought any faucets? Not, did you buy our Kohler faucets or what's it going to take me itch in some Kohler faucets today? Not just asking did you buy what it was you inquired about? To buy a car, did you buy refrigerated? Did you buy whatever it was?
\n\nAnd what they found was that at the 18 month mark, just over half of the people that inquire about anything will buy what it is they inquired about within that 18 month.
\n\nRight. But when they did the math, when they did the surveys at 90-day increments, only 15 percent of them Will buy in the first 90 days. So the value is in the long term. Right, then there's five times More value beyond 90 days than in the first 90 days. So you're building a stable Asset that's going to yield they were using these words. It's going to be the foundation of your business there, right. So you build that list, you get it to a thousand, you continually grow it and you build systems around how to introduce your services, your products, your help, that you can work with people, and the cost is a multiple, or the yield is a multiple, of what you Spend to do that see it all the time in the, in the book business, in Entrepreneur business, and at the same message every month to people who have been on the list for 10, 15 years Are you ready to get started?
\n\nStuart: Oh, this is from that group every single time people raise the hand. Yeah.
\n\nDean: I forgot about that. But every month on the first of the month, we send out a message, just yeah, hey, sir, would you like to get started on your book this month too? And we've got thousands of people on that list and every month we ask them the same question. And Every month five or six people jump immediately kind of yes, because it's now cool.
\n\nStuart: But it's now for them, and that's the thing. There's their check moves, the one by selling book by Michael Gleason. So he talks about check moves and as the Sales person, as the person in the business, you can never know when time is for the person. It's entirely their decision. Your job is just to present the opportunities. They're now.
\n\nDean: You know what I've discovered is that's the thing, that there's only two timeframes there's now and not now. Right, anytime that's not now is. If it's not now, it's doesn't matter whether it's 90 days or 90 months. Right now it's just not nice, it's we, the whole thing that we're pursuing. We're constantly in this pursuit of now, and so when you send a message, you know Luba, my girlfriend for amazing brows and lashes her studio here in Winterhaven. She, at the beginning of every month, sends out a message. I stir it. Would you like to get your eyebrows done this month? Why, yes, we know every time.
\n\nStuart: So there's something and knowing that you're sending that message to the group of people who are already interested. It's not like every month you're running an ad saying, cave, you'd like to get your eyebrows done, come in. And so you're building the rapport relationship with the people who have self-selected Because they've opted into the thing that peak their interest in the first play that what it piqued their interest.
\n\nDean: But it also bookmarked their intention that anybody who downloads a book called the plantar fasciitis solution that was modeled after one we did with Luba called the adult acne solution, and that's kind of the whole thing. Anybody who downloads a book called the adult acne solution is Presumably someone who has adult acne and would like to not have Right. So when you get that person on a list they're gonna it's not a Acute onset and go away type of thing. It's something that is ongoing and unless they do something about it, nothing's going to happen. It's only gonna get worse. So when they go ahead and try something else, if they try Some chemical thing, they try something and see that doesn't work or that it works but then it doesn't maintain right that now, at some point in that thing they're ready to it comes around and they go. You know, maybe I'm ready now. Now I should look at this solution.
\n\nSo that's the thing when I say to, when I'm Help the people understand what it's worth for them to have a book. It's not so much about the what the book itself is worth, it's what's the value of the people that the book will get you in contact with, and I love this way. You know, we both use that term of the job of work, of the book, and that's what do you if you are hiring the book to do something. If if the only job it did was to get a thousand people to knock on the door and say, hey, I'm interested in this. That has done its job.
\n\nNow, in order to do that job, I it doesn't have to be a big book. That's the thing, right? I'm a huge fan of the, what I call and what is known as the minimum effective dose, and I'm fascinated by that concept because what it's looking is what's the minimum amount of something that gets the desired outcome, where anything extra is not really helping do the job. Like, if you can write a 50 page book, 60 page, 70 page book, that gets the job done. There's no advantage to having a 250 page book to do the same job of work. It's like such a.
\n\nStuart: It's wasted effort in the book itself and it's wasted opportunity because the rest of that content knows additional 200 pages. That's almost certainly another book to engage in the audience.
\n\nDean: Let's put this right here so you can see I bookend these conversations about can a short book, a little book, have a big impact? And the ones that use two examples of this. I didn't have the other one, but here's a little book that was pretty much a revolution starter when you say the communist manifesto very thin but big impact.
\n\nI would say and I bookend that with the common sense by Thomas Paine, which is the book that really started the counter mechanism to that of capitalism and democracy, and that you think about. Those two books are short, they're small little books but I guarantee that your idea if you're thinking about writing a book is gonna fit somewhere between those two. You're not gonna have a book that's that big of a revolution starter. But if you've got a book that's gonna gather all the people without all that all the people with plantar fasciitis or whatever you're gonna call you look at it and you think about if you sell a course on writing and you've got a book called Read this If you Want to Be a Great Writer, if anybody, if you could get a list of a thousand people that have downloaded voluntarily a book called Read this If you Want to Be a Great Writer.
\n\nStuart: It's pretty self-selecting.
\n\nDean: It's pretty self-selecting, right, so that becomes the value there, and I'm just such a big fan of it, you know.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, there's Kevin's 60-second sales hook. So again similar thing, small book, just talking, just introducing ideas.
\n\nDean: He gets him in front of people who are. He works with copywriters and that's kind of the thing that you're promising a shortcut, right, promising a shortcut to people. And that gets him in conversation with people who are writers, who are aspiring to persuade people by copy. So you know, here's the thing. That kind of I really think about with the short book kind of thing is what I offset all that information with is that demo and the job will work, is that we want them. We just want it to gather leads and we're going to take it from there.
\n\nI don't care whether somebody actually reads the book, right, and it's not about reading the book, it's about raising their hand to say that they want the solution or what it indicates, what they're looking for. So when I read, there was an article in the New York Times that talked about the state of readership and it was really fascinating because it was one of the first times that they had the Kindle and Kobo data to see what actually happens and what they found was that I want to say 58 percent it was over 50 percent of the people who buy a book never open it. Okay, so you think about that. It's like if half the people let's just be conservative on that that half the people that buy a book will never open it, and you think that's absolutely true, like in your own life. Every time I'm speaking to hundreds of people and I'll ask them have you ever bought a book and not opened it? Yeah, and every single one of us has. We've got a whole collection of things.
\n\nStuart: And that's self behind.
\n\nDean: Yes, but there's. The thing is, who's buying the book or asking for the book is it's easy to consume, easy to make that decision, but they're always buying it for future Dean. Yeah, they're thinking I don't have time to read it, but maybe future Dean would be nice for future Dean to curl up with a coffee and read this book by the fire.
\n\nRight, because you think about what it takes for people to read a book. It takes hours to read a big this commitment. Yeah, dan Sullivan, founder of strategic coach, we always talk about the short books. The perfect length for a book is that you can sit down on a flight from Toronto to Chicago and finish the whole book in one airplane flight. Yeah, that's what we're looking for. That's the odds that somebody's going to do it way up on that. Yeah.
\n\nStuart: You know, because otherwise it sits on shelf and then something else gets put on top of it and then it's disappeared. Yeah, we talk about people actually reading the book and very much people think about writing a book in the traditional sense. Yeah, it's very much about the words and the contents. But I'll often say to people that the person who's buying it, so those readership rates, the people who, broadly speaking, have brought entertainment based books from Amazon with job of work, the purpose of being entertained, they still haven't read it. But these books, people are buying the solution. Someone buying a book on plantar fasciitis isn't doing it for an academic exercise, right? They don't want the knowledge, they want the solution. They want to get from the cover and the title that identifies to them that there is a solution to the back cover of what our next step is. They just want to get to the solution. Don't make me do the work of having to read something. Yeah, it's the outcome.
\n\nDean: So if you've got a thing, if you've got anything that you can do, that is that information would help, or if you could gather, if you've got invisible prospects, you can get in front of them by helping put a title. That would be exactly what they want. And that's so much of getting making sure that it works. Is you just got to have a book, you got to have a title that, upon reading it, your ideal prospect says I want that, right, that's for me. And then you got to have a way for them to get it Like a, really reach them. And that's, I mean.
\n\nFacebook ads are right now the easiest, lowest friction, fastest action acting way. Literally, you could put up an ad today and have leads today, right away. Yeah, you know, from small budget, you know $20 a day or whatever you go up, but it's just going to accelerate it If you can spend $100 a day or $200 a day once you get your system figured out that the goal is to get to that 1000 benchmark and then build the relationship with them. So that's how we would kind of evaluate what it's worth, what it could be worth to you. Then you know in terms of asking or answering the question about how long does it take and how much does it cost. Is you know how long does it take, preferably? You've been working on this your entire life, or your entire adult life. You've gathered insight, information, something that would be valuable to convey to your ideal prospects. So you're. It's not that you need to figure out what you're going to write. You've got it in your head.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, you're not starting research. Everything is there, that's exactly right.
\n\nDean: It's just a matter of getting it from your brain out into a digital format, right? And the fastest way to get anything from your brain into a digital format is through your mouth, thank you. Nobody gets talkers block. Everybody talks about getting writers buck. They sit down, stare at that blank page and they don't know what to do. Yeah, don't know what to write, but if you, if we, you know we help people break it down into the process, we're literally you can do it in 90 minutes. You know we.
\n\nThe way we set everything up is we imagine that you are a guest on a radio show. We provide that environment for you will sit down, have a conversation, just like this. I'm asking you, setting you up for the questions. That would be the outline and chapters of the book. You talk about them. We get that transcribed, edit that into the book, create a wonderful cover for you and put it all together and literally 30 days from the time you start, depending on how you're doing there, you can have at least the digital version of your book ready to go right, have physical copies of your book and, just in case you want to send physical copies to people as well. So the time investment compared to going down the traditional book route of Sitting down manually typing out the words is so soul-crushing yeah, and take so much time Going back to high school and having been assigned Work that you have to do and you can't escape, and doing something passion project.
\n\nYes, exactly time so we look at that and say, you know, yeah, cutting that timeline Down, where your real involvement is only in Brainstorming, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna get the title to be? We'll do a whole other thing, just about book titles. But looking at the, looking at that outcome Amazing, right, like the time of it compared to where you got to go through. And we're gonna, you're gonna write the book, you're gonna send it to an editor, you're gonna get it, you know, edited. You're gonna.
\n\nStuart: You work with a ghost writer, you're gonna and on all of those, all of the people involved in that process, so passing the responsibility back to you. So, even if people think that it's an easy job to do, all of those decisions are coming back and for most of us, adding more decisions and people asking questions to our plate is necessarily the idea I come. It's the other benefit of a short book that's got a single job of work. Yeah, because you're not in the book.
\n\nBlueprint scorecard that we've got that talks about the mindsets of how to write a book like this, one of those mindsets is beneficial constraint and this idea that blesses more of Constraining yourself to answering the one or two questions that are the most pressing for this group of people and not getting sucked Into all of the other stuff, because if you've been in business for more than a year, you could write ten thousand pages and the stuff that you know, yeah, and the stuff that other people don't, but you just bite in yourself into a hole if you don't have those constraints, yeah so that's, there's the time.
\n\nDean: And then how much does it cost? You know, for the, our signature product right now, $2,000. Yeah, it's a do the. This is what the 90-minute book looks like, right there. This is a perfect example. This is an example of a book that's generated millions of dollars.
\n\nWe've helped over a thousand people write their books in this model. And this is the start. You can see it's. How many pages are we out here? This one's 43 pages is all it is, but it looks like a book. It's a real book and you can download it for free at 90 minute books Dot com, and when you do that will get send you also this. We've got a worksheet called Book title formulas and we got an audio that kind of goes with. This walks you through how to create the best title for your book, and that whole thing you know is, you know from beginning to end. Again, for $2,000 and less than 30 days, you've got the tool that can get people knocking on your door right away, starting those conversations. So if you say, for I Think that if you look at comparable services, if you're gonna use that service to write a book, that they're primarily looking to help you write a bestseller or to get it on Amazon bestseller which is so it's all it's Nonsense.
\n\nI mean in terms of there's no value in having an Amazon bestseller or anything like that compared to getting your ideal Prospects in your right in the go zone of who you're looking for the funny thing about Amazon it's people don't realize that you've got no way of knowing who those people are.
\n\nStuart: You sell a thousand books and maybe make a $1,000 off the book sales by the time.
\n\nDean: All the cost of your royalties of $2 and you're paying back your advance.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, so you could get a thousand leads. Yeah. The reason that we keep the signature type of book in the lineup is because it is that absolute, perfect minimum File commitment. Start if money's. We're trying to democratize this through as many people as possible, so if you've got bigger budget, you can do more things, make it and improve it you start.
\n\nDean: I think about it as version one. Think about let's get the book if you're, if you've got a you know I love Joe Polish and I had Tucker max on the I love marketing podcast. They've got a what I would call like the Cadillac service of book writing right scribed me. It's a fantastic service if you're gonna write get famous kind of thing.
\n\nBut you know you're talking over $30,000 to do this up to yeah by the time everything is done, and I'd rather see you spend that money and that time on. I was stated Tucker I should have. We should have a challenge where we take somebody from today yeah, and you know, fast workers is gonna take months and months to do a scribe book to.
\n\nBut to take the same thing right, a 90 minute book spend instead of the $30,000 spend $28,000 on building thousands of leads and selling things to them that you'd come out at six months, hundreds of thousands dollars ahead Versus a hundred thousand dollars out to, to then get started on by the book out in the world.
\n\nYeah. So all right, we got a run 90 minute books. Calm, go there, download the book. That's where it all starts. Will give you the book title formulas and you'll you know, you'll be in our world and you'll see Example after example of how to how to get this done. So, in short, I think a book is a fantastic idea. I'm just one, my go-to thing.
\n\nStuart: So I think if anyone's asking them, should they do it. Yes.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show I caught up with Dean Jackson at the studio to talk about some of the reasons you should be writing a book for your business.\r\n \r\nDean & I talk every day, but we don't make enough time to record, so it's always great when we get opportunity to sit down and go deep into some of the ideas.\r\n\r\nWe talk about why a book is the best tool to find people you can work with, how to think about starting a conversation rather than selling a product, and the pitfalls to avoid if you're looking for the benefits of having a book without the traps of traditional publishing.\r\n\r\nIf you're listening to this in the podcast feed, definitely checkout the show at 90.minutebooks.com/podcast/115 to watch the video.","date_published":"2022-09-11T11:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/0c316284-b821-4808-a66b-60fc2dbc5ff4.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":37459256,"duration_in_seconds":2341}]},{"id":"ec29822e-70af-4bac-adc2-d742b02de8a0","title":"Ep114: Didn't We Used To Do a Podcast","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/114","content_text":"Today on the Book More Show, we're actually releasing a Book More Show!\n\nThe reality of recording a podcast, or writing a book for that matter, is that it's not our day job. Our job is to help you write books, so once something interrupts the flow, it's so easy for the pattern to break and a week, a month, a year pass by.\n\nWe hear it all the time with clients coming back two years later to finally start the book they thought they'd get done in a few weeks, and looking at the date of the last show, it happened to us with the podcast.\n\nSo... we've acknowledged time got away from us, we know we have important ideas to share with you, we enjoy doing it (we're even publishing shows every week for others!!), so time to get back on the horse. This is an episode we recorded a few months ago & next week, we'll be back with a new one.\n\nWe're getting the band back together!\n\n\nLINKS\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/114\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com\n\n\n\nTRANSCRIPT\n\n(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)\n\n\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome to the Book More Show. My name is Stuart Bell and today we are well. Today we are actually going to release an episode. It's been a while. \nI guess the reality of recording a show, or writing a book for that matter, is that typically it's not our day job. So over here, our day jobs have new guys write books, so something that interrupts the flow of the extra projects. It's easy for the pattern to break in a week turns into a month and before you know it, a month turns into a year. And here we are. We hear it all the time, actually, with clients coming back two years later to finally start the book that they thought would just take them a couple of weeks to finish. Looking at the day to the last show, that's exactly what's happened here. So with that, I guess acknowledgement is the first stage towards redemption. \nDoing the podcast is something that we really love doing. Actually, we've got a stack of information to share with you guys, so it's good to get back on the horse At this episode we actually recorded a few months ago, so I'm going to share this with you now, and the next week we'll be back with a new episode. Okay, let's get the band back together. Let's see Vaughn. \n\nBetsey: Stuart. \n\nStuart: Betsey, how are you? Very good thanks. How's it going? \n\nBetsey: Very good, very good. \n\nStuart: I think today would be a good day for podcast. \n\nBetsey: How about that? \n\nStuart: Let's do it Sounds like a plan. \n\nBetsey: Alright, what do you want to talk about? \n\nStuart: So it is the week before Thanksgiving, which means that 2022 is disturbingly close, so I thought it would be a prompt for you with touching base, checking in the lay of land and making some suggestions for next year. \n\nBetsey: Sounds like it. It definitely sounds like a plan. I can't believe that 2021 has flown by. I mean 2020, I feel like the last few years have just been a complete blur. What's? \n\nStuart: sacrificed 2020 as a write-off 2021 is basically a bit more organised. \n\nBetsey: That was a trick. I think that was really a trick. I don't know that we're any further. No, I think we are. That's not true. I mean, I think people are, they're back and they're there. They had a lot of time to plan and sit and think about strategies for the upcoming years. So I think our aim was being a lot of people do some new things. Everybody got a little more creative in how they do business and that kind of thing. A lot of people are interested in books. \n\nStuart: So that's been pretty fortunate. Looking at being creative that time that passed by, I know people who can't talk to me they can't have to play the guitar or learn to paint or do something like that and looking back thinking, oh, that would have been a good opportunity to do something like that. \n\nBetsey: That would have been great. I didn't do that. I didn't take up a new hobby or anything. \n\nStuart: Realising it. Maybe talent was the thing that was holding me back. Oh, that's the problem. \n\nBetsey: That's the problem. You know finding my daughter who loves music. She's 25. She loves music. She's had a guitar. She had guitar lessons as a child. She took piano, she did the choir. She asked me the other day to buy her a banjo for Christmas. \n\nStuart: I said what? \n\nBetsey: Oh, let's not do that. We're just not going to waste the money because we've been down the road with the instruments. \n\nStuart: Banjo is far more hipster than the guitar, see. \n\nBetsey: Right, exactly, but it's. I mean, she has talent and I just don't think that is one of them playing a musical instrument. So I'm going to skip right over that and buy one of the instruments Move on to the next one, exactly so yeah. \n\nStuart: Okay. So I think that what we're seeing. So, like you were saying, we've been. We've had a number of clients all the way through the last couple of years. In fact, interestingly enough, we've probably had a bit of a peak earlier in the in 2020 that we did in 2021. As people, as things get back to normal and the day-to-day pressures of running the business come back into play and kind of adjusting to a slightly different, normal set of assumptions than there was in the year before. I think this year has gone back to normal in that sense. But what is super interesting is thinking about the opportunities for 2022. So, as we get in closer and closer, the thought that people are going to be picking up where they left off to a certain degree. Now, whatever, the current situation is probably going to be the way it's going to be for the next period of time. \nSo, thinking about all of the work that had to be done, all of the customers that we were engaging, all of the business opportunities that were there two years ago, the opportunity to reach back out to those people now and start those conversations again, whether it's people that you're actually in conversation with or those, that kind of unknown group of customers who haven't quite yet raised their hand but who are now probably thinking about oh, it's time to do this thing again. A book is a great opportunity for the reason to reach out to them, knowing that those people are all out there but not knowing how to start the conversation. It's that idea that a book really solves, because it's a, like we've said all along, it's a great conversation starter. \n\nBetsey: Yeah, hey. We haven't spoken in two years. So look what I've been doing. This is what this is what I did. There's some great information. Here is my book. I mean that's pretty impressive, I mean, when you think about it. Wow, didn't learn to play the banjo or the guitar, but this person wrote a book and that is. You know, that's impressive. That's a great way to get that conversation started. \n\nStuart: And that's a great point, because the nature of the book itself, the type of the book itself, is less important than the fact that the book exists, both from the opportunity to start the conversation and the opportunity for positioning things in a different way and and reminding people that you were there and we were having a conversation or you were thinking about taking a step. The content of it is less important than the fact that exists, but the content of it. There's a couple of different, different mindsets you can have going into or different approaches you can take. So it could either be writing exactly the same book that you might have written a couple of years ago and now it's just getting it done. Nothing that's happened in the last couple of years has changed what the content would be, or it could be that fundamentally, something's changed. So you need to write the book about the new way of thinking about your particular subject, because things aren't the same anymore. Something's actually changed. Or it could be the perception of something's changed, so why it's important now, or how this can be used in this current climate where we find ourselves today the concept of how. It's how your thing, which actually hasn't changed, but the way people think about it or use it has changed. So for all three of those groups, I think, no matter where you are in terms of thinking about how am I going to create this? What is this thing that I'm going to create? \n\nFor all three of those groups, the timing element the fact that now is a transitional period of time because we're going into a new year, so that's historically that's transitional. Anyway, people are thinking about planning for the year ahead more than perhaps they do in May that kind of conversation to crop up in people's minds so much but also on the coming out of the pandemic and whatever changes your customers had to make for that, and the fact that there's a kind of a marketplace opportunity where maybe other people aren't quite thinking about these marketing activities yet. They're still firefighting in the business or trying to come to terms with what was changed. So the now of writing something so that you have it available is much more important than perhaps two years ago or, honestly, even a year ago, because a year ago, unless something had very much changed and you were trying to communicate what's different, so like a very timely book, then writing something that was standard that was the way it's always been might just have got less traction, because everyone was thinking about what's different and what's new, not so much about what's the same. \nI can't remember the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure I have been a Jeff Bezos quote that Dean was talking about a couple of weeks ago, saying that let's assume it was Jeff Bezos, it might not be, but he was saying it's not so much what change is in 20 years. That is where the business opportunity is. It's what's the same in 20 years because everyone gets caught up in the new and the flash in the different and wanting to invest in the future. But actually a lot of the fundamentals remain the same. If you double down on maximizing those, then there's a huge opportunity in what doesn't change, because then you can plan for the long term and amortize the costs of whatever effort you put in for the long term. \nSo you can imagine a scenario where someone wrote a book on year-end tax planning. I mean there's a certain 10% of that, 20% of that might change in any given year, but 80% remains the same. But the same as us writing a book. I mean we will come up with, share different ideas with people and there's maybe some timely things that will change that people want to pay attention to, but the fundamentals remain the same. It's the fundamentals that we talk about in the book Lupin Score. It's knowing who you're going to talk to, knowing what it is that's going to capture their attention, sharing their valuable information. That moves the conversation towards an inevitable, obvious outcome, which means you can get in front of people. The way that we do that might change year to year, but the fundamentals remain the same. \n\nBetsey: Yeah, very true yeah. \n\nStuart: I forgot how I broke my voice. \n\nBetsey: I have my water and my coffee going at the same time. Yeah, so let's go from there. On that whole getting started, I think what people ask me a lot is what do I do? How do I get this out there? How do I make it all happen? People really don't have a knowledge on the steps. \n\nStuart: I know I should do it, but what do I need to do to get it? \n\nBetsey: done. Oh, all the lots of shoulds that I should have done in five years ago, kind of thing. \n\nStuart: I know and it's funny as now I was talking to someone in the podcasting space last week talking about the clients coming on board and they had maybe an expectation that they would come on board fast. It would be a short turnaround from that initial conversation to becoming a client and that really wasn't being the case. And I was using our example of we talked to people I mean three, four, five, six years ago. We had first conversations with them and then they're coming back to do it now and just as we started off, I mean we were saying that 2021 kind of evaporated pretty fast and that was on the back of 2020, which also kind of in one, on one hand, took forever and, on the other hand, disappeared in the blink of an eye. \n\nIt's the same with dealing with clients. Unless you've got a very kind of transactional business or there's a deadline where they need to do something now, any other business where it's discretionary, it doesn't have to be done. It would be nice to have, but not a must have a year just disappears. And thinking about the leads that you're generating in terms of that kind of five year conversion not the one year conversion really makes a fundamental difference in both how effective you think of an individual campaign, how effective it is that you've done this lead generation work, but also the way that you stay in touch with people after that initial activity. So I think if you're too into the spectrum. So the one that we talk about a lot is Facebook ads promoting a book and then they download a copy of the book and there's a follow up sequence and auto responder that runs through. \nThe likelihood of someone converting into buying a book or into doing whatever your business is, just from that book ad within a couple of days of an auto responder is probably relatively low. It's much more likely that these people, if you stay in touch with them over the long term, they're going to convert or do something, raise their hand in some kind of meaningful way over the next two years. So not getting disheartened if someone doesn't immediately come on board in the first two days, but equally knowing that you want an effective way of staying in touch with them for the next two years, that really makes a difference. And if you can get into the mindset of, okay, I'm building this pool of customers who are beginning to learn more about the process and out of the whole planet, these are the people who are the most likely to convert, even if they're not individually converting today. Then thinking of that as building an asset that is going to mature over the long term, it's really quite fundamentally changes it. \n\nBetsey: I think about when I first started and we were doing Facebook ads and coming from my background in education, where I was in environment where people absolutely that we had a wait list and people wanted to just get in our school and that sort of thing. So, coming from that, where I didn't do we added zero advertising. I didn't, it was all it was word of mouth, which is the best way to get something out there. But we would do now, we would do these Facebook ads here on this side of this business and and I would just be sitting Okay, where are they like? Why aren't they coming up? \nI got a little little poo poo about the Facebook ads, but what again, watching it over, the people who've interacted, who, like you said they downloaded. There's some interaction We've had with them, maybe even a conversation or two, and they're on our list and they will reach out once a while and respond to one of our incredible emails, that Informative emails that go out, and then finally they say that's what we hear. You have been on your list for two or three years and so when that started happening for me in this environment, I was like, ah, this is great. Okay, this is it this is you? \nhave to reset your expectations. \n\nStuart: That's the first of all, and that difference between a business that's got very limited supply You've got only so many places in the classes that you can fill and there's a huge demand, because it's seen as like a qualitative difference of a high-performing school versus school that has other issues and there's a very specific externally mandated deadline. Their kid is starting school on September, the first Somewhere, whether it's there or not so all of those three things. \nIt's not many other businesses that have that type of setup, in many more in the situation that we're in. There. There's a great service that can be beneficial to people, but it's not particularly Practically speaking. It's not capacity constrained, because we can scale to whatever level we need to scale. There's no hard deadline. There's no mandated deadline saying people have to do it by this point. It's just opportunity costs that people are losing of not doing it sooner and the same, I think. \n\nBetsey: Yeah, that's the funny thing, because that's what we have a client who came on board in 2018 maybe that maybe being a 2019 and he started his book and we finished the first version of it and then he just stopped because his business was doing things. And then he came back and and he has said, even though he's super, super excited to share with you today, he was excited about, oh my gosh, he's following on Amazon, he's following up his print book and it was him that was holding up the process because life just took over and but you know, he has said well, there's, you know, so many. These last couple of years there's been some missed opportunities, not to have an opportunity to put it out. There's been one last thing I've had to to reach out to my client for, and that's the main thing, isn't it? \n\nStuart: I mean, it's not so much that whether you get your book written or not to whether you do it with us or not, I'll do it by yourself. It's not so much that the cocks ticking on that, but it's the opportunity to Reach out to the customers, knowing that Day one it's like the compounding idea. It's not so much that day one, two or three, if it doubles, doubles, doubles those days aren't very interesting. But then when you get up to days 364, 365, if we're still doubling every day, it's the numbers at the end that are dramatically big. So, having this out there and missing one opportunity to have it as a way to start the conversation, or two opportunities, or three, it's the idea that these leads are building into a pool and every lead that you don't get to put in there, it's one at the end and potentially a multiple of one at the end that is missing out. \n\nYeah, yeah, I Guess at this point, if anyone's getting to this point in the podcast, though, they've don't know, cool, I don't know ready to go on creating something, so Probably not this. Yeah, we need to convince, although maybe is this audience that we need to convince to pull the trigger now because we send the podcast out to thousands more people and we have customers. So yeah, if you are listening. \n\nBetsey: You shared with somebody the other day, had listened to all the podcasts and and so I think about that. I wonder, like, how many of our clients have been on that list? And that's, it's another tool is another tool that we send out to people that way to engage with people? And we've been, we have, we did, we have slapped in 20, 21 just with this aspect, but it's just a little bit of information. It's easy information for people to gather, but it's always it's interesting to me to hear people say, oh, listen to the podcast and then they will come on board, because I honestly don't always think about this as a tool. That Might be something that's rude. Someone. \n\nStuart: I talk so much if forget that other people listening to this one. Well, on that, then. So that. So the question you asked before. People have a conversation and have a kind of unclear next step in mind, so I'll talk as if people are working with us, because that's the easier context. But if you're not, if you're trying to do this by yourself, they're just substitute you out, traveling the blanks in a bit that I'll talk about. That we do, and you'll have to do that yourself, but the framework is still the same for everyone. \nSo I think the most important thing when thinking about what's the best step for 2020 is get past this idea of the content of the book or what the book is more important than the fact that a book exists, because, honestly, it's not. The most important thing is that a book exists and there's a certain number of people who would eventually become clients. Even if you had a book with no words on, if you just had the cover that was no content, there would be a number of people who would convert, because what they're looking to do, they're not looking to be entertained by the content of your book. You're not writing a John Grisham thriller. You're writing something to help them solve the problem. Now, a lot of the solving of the problem, ultimately, is you doing it for them. So if the book moves them closer to that step, some of them are going to take that step, regardless of what the content is or isn't. So I think Excuse me I think that's the most important thing is get past this idea of the book itself is the key thing, because, also, what that does is it frees you up from the Paralysis, analysis paralysis of making the book Turning into this big thing that it's got to be perfect or you've got to do it in a certain way, or it's got to have a certain amount of content, or it's got to tick all of these boxes. \n\nThe traditional book would tick because the traditional book is the product you're selling them, the book. That's the reason for writing it in this context. That's not what we're talking about at all. You're selling the idea of there's a fix to a problem. That's out there. We're closing the gap on understanding. Now Obviously not Seriously suggesting having no content in the book. That's ridiculous. But it just to break that break that hang up that people have of separating the Job of work of this, which is to start a conversation with someone that leads to helping them resolve something, versus the book as a product, a traditional book, where it's actually the words on the page that are the thing that you're selling. \nSo, with that in mind, once you've accepted that, then the next thing to do is okay, well, what is gonna? What's gonna help people the most? What are the problems that they're struggling with? What answer can I provide them that's really gonna help them achieve more in whatever? Why have a business or whatever Industry or framework or challenge? What is it that they're struggling with that I can help, because it's understanding those questions. That is then really gonna help them raise their hands, so you know who they are, so you can deliver more information to them. \nSo one of the ones that passed over the desk recently was the 2021 Social Security Guide. So this is a book we've actually got a couple of versions of it that we work with some private clients with and that is used for various CPAs financial advisor type people to identify clients who are approaching retirement, and then you can work with them to deal with a bigger portfolio. All of these people are dealing with a high net worth individuals, so the Social Security itself isn't really that much of the portfolio, so it's less about the actual. That's not their only financial arrow in their quiver. They've got lots of other things, but it's the thing that's consistent to everyone who's paying attention to that element of their life, thinking about retirement they're coming up towards, they're doing some planning for their finances around retirement. \nSocial Security is one element that's consistent. So the idea that group of people are going to be interested just in the fundamentals of Social Security and the nuts and bolts of what's happening in 2021, that is a key way of getting that group of people to raise their hands. Now we know that from a book called the 2021 Social Security Guide. No one's necessarily going to immediately convert into paying wealth management fees to manage their portfolio, but it's the first step in that conversation. All of that group of people are interested in this subject. This subject is the gateway to other things and the information that we're providing within this book is valuable and specific and time-based and useful and is bite-sized enough so that, within something that we can practically write and someone that can easily read, it's answering that question. \n\nBetsey: So bite-sized that's a great little term there. Bite-sized because that's one thing that people, I think, struggle with making sure, even though the book is there, not as an important factor, but when you talk about the content there, people always say well, how do I know I'm not giving too much away? How do I know if I give a tax column? Everything I know for everything and they're not going to call me. \n\nStuart: That idea of giving it all away is so crazy. \n\nBetsey: We're not going to write that book. \n\nStuart: No one's going to write that book and no one's going to want to read that book either. It's so funny for a couple of reasons. One is this idea that a bite-sized book is like the minimum effective dose of starting the conversation, and this is what we're trying to achieve. So separating out the book as a product from the book as a tool to start a conversation and the conversation as a product. I'm willing to accept that's not what everyone thinks and it's a way, it's a thought technology that we have that is hugely beneficial from a marketing campaign perspective and building your business. So that's why we never talk about ourselves as a publishing company. We're a marketing company and books are the tools that we use to achieve that marketing goal. So I'm quite willing to accept that for a lot of people, that thought technology is something new I mean, it's not rocket science, but it's not necessarily what people are thinking about but this idea of I have to write everything and get it into this huge book and but then I'm concerned about giving it all away In 2021, anyone that thinks that they're giving away everything, when literally, they're probably having this thought whilst looking at a phone that's connected to the internet, and then there's the entirety of the internet out there. \nSo anyone that thinks that the information itself is unique is, I mean, just delusional. I mean 20 years ago I could understand it, because information is hard to come by and if you didn't have access to the right sources, but now I mean that just hasn't been true for 18 years and definitely hasn't been true in the last 10 years. So, yeah, that is, and usually when we're debating things, I'm usually in the middle and devil's advocate in both sides. But that idea is just stupid and I'm like no, no, and that's my thing. \n\nBetsey: Like you know who wants to read your five or six hundred page book, so I never want to read your two hundred page book. I mean really you know it's not it's. \n\nStuart: It's a starting of the conversation, unless you've got an audience who are now I'm trying, to devil's advocate, to justify when it would make sense. But I mean, there's potential I can't even I'm struggling to even come up with when you're looking at a marketing tool, the lead tool. \n\nBetsey: There's. No, there's not. Now, if you are looking at someone who's a public author self help or yeah, those books tend to be a little bit bigger you're giving them a lot more information. But again, any of that information, most of that information, I can, I can put it right here in my little handy dandy phone and and pull it all out, but you know, so that's the thing. \n\nStuart: Yeah, that's the thing. Those examples you gave. Where makes sense is where the book is the product. So where the book is the product, then you have to make the book worth, whatever the cover price is. But honestly, anyone who's well I can't imagine anyone who's listening here is thinking of the book as being a product and making money from the book. Everyone's. The book is the introduction to the conversation. So this idea of giving it all away and being concerned about that is just it's shooting you in the foot because you're comparing your thing. It's not an apples to apples comparison. You're trying to compare your thing that you're trying to create to a, an author who has either got a huge academic career, who has got a huge amount of publicity, who has already written a large number of books already on Amazon, where you where books like that are selling for 12, 15, $20. And if there's no way, you just can't compare. You can't compare with that, so it's not even worth trying. And your brain trying to compare it to that is just shooting you in the foot because it's just not a comparison. \n\nBetsey: So they're selling that book and they want to make the money out of that book versus what you as the business owner are. You're just trying to use that as to make the money from the foundation. So build your clientele that way, and I think that's one thing. \n\nStuart: So within that and within that then. So the trick is to think about okay, well, what is the most effective thing to do? So all of this knowledge that's out there I know that I'm not going to share all of it, because not that it's magical, provides you information that I'm going to give away but just it's not practical to do and it's not effective to do either. It would be a complete waste of time to spend two years trying to get all of this information into this book because no one's going to read it all or it's just not as effective as using that information in different ways. So by thinking about okay, the job of working the book is to start the conversation and lead people, help them identify themselves to my world, and then my world can share more information with them, and that additional information can be some of the additional stuff that isn't included in the book, but within the book itself. We need to make sure that we need beneficial constraints. It's one of the book blueprint scorecard mindsets. We need beneficial constraints to make sure that we're likely to get this thing finished. So those constraints could be scope constraints in terms of the subject, or time constraints in terms of when we need to get it done, or effort constraints, which is a little bit different, more difficult to measure, but I've got 10 units of effort a week that I can put into this, and if it demands any more than that, then I'm just not gonna get it done. So those beneficial constraints the whole reason they're beneficial is because it's the thing that gets us to get it out the door. \nSo, thinking about what the we're going into 2022, everyone's coming back out into the world they're starting to pick up projects or thinking about doing things that they couldn't do before. Maybe they want to do things, but they're still unable to because of the tail end of the pandemic. Maybe there are certain reasons why they can't do these things, so they need to know that bit of information, or they need to just be reminded of the general, the evergreen information that is just gonna help them move forward with it. But I can't and don't want to give all of that in the pages of the book, not because of any concern about giving it all away, but just because I need a beneficial constraint to make sure that it gets done. So what's the questions on their mind? What are their concerns and their challenges that they're trying to get past now that I can write something that's gonna resonate with them, to help them with that one little piece in the puzzle that then starts the conversation and then moves them into my world so that we can start sharing more information with them over the next whatever period of time until they convert. \nSo really, the biggest step that anyone can take, whether they're working with us or doing it themselves, is think about, is understand, that job of work. It's start in the conversation and then thinking about okay, well, with that constraint in mind, who is it that I can best help and what is it that they really need to know to help them move forward? But this first step I'm not gonna write something that takes them all the way, because I'm not gonna write it and they're not gonna read it, but what is the first step that's really gonna help them and then allow them to move on and consume more stuff over the next period of time? The email mastery book is a great example, because that book was that Dean wrote was taken from a podcast, a podcast that was recorded a few years ago. It was the content was created really just by transcribing and editing that podcast. So in fact, I think I'm not even sure that we've ever edited that book. \n\nTo be honest, if we have, it was only a very quick kind of proofread of it, because that wasn't the job of work. The job of work was get the conversation going and lead people towards presenting them with the offer of some of the other email mastery stuff, so it didn't need to be. It's almost an example of one of the ones that could have been blank. I mean obviously not quite, but the content really wasn't the main thing. So very easy to create, very on point, because it shares a couple of great ideas for email funnels. So it's really leading people towards thinking that. But one of the main marketing channels to get people to even be aware of it was the email mastery ad that we ran in Success Magazine. So that was just one of the and actually I'll put that. I'll put that ad in the show notes. So on the podcast, follow the link on the podcast player or head over to 90minutebookscom forward slash podcast and check out the notes for this episode. I'll put that ad in there because the ad was talking. It was an explainer or an article that was written about the nine word email and this definition of the nine word email and what it is and who it's beneficial for. So there was an article that talked about useful information in 300 words or so. Then there was the option, the lead. The next step is to grab a free copy of this book that talks about the seven or eight other strategies, and then from the book it leads towards the email mastery program, which has got a whole host of additional information. And then monthly calls, q&a calls with Dean to talk about email campaigns. So when you think about that, in this, whatever your business, is the very small introduction step, the fact, the thing that people are gonna see first. So, whether it was an ad or an article or a comment or a form post or a video, whatever, it is the very small piece the logically leads to the next bigger piece, the opt-in, this kind of minimum viable commitment step. The commitment is you need a name and email address from them. So what is it that you can give them that's valuable enough, just for the cost of the name and email address, and then that provides more additional valuable information within that same kind of the same problem that you're trying to solve. And then there's a call to action at the end of that that leads them into the next minimum viable commitment step. So it's all this staged approach and it all comes back to this idea of we're looking to build an asset of contact with people who have expressed an interest. So the seven billion people on the planet, it's the 700 who are the most likely to convert. I don't know when they're gonna convert, I'm not in their head. I can't force them to convert, but what I wanna do is provide them some value that leads them towards giving up their email address. They get some on the list where I can deliver even more value so that at some point in the future, when they're ready, I'm just constantly presenting options where they can take the next step adding value, adding information, building the rapport. There was a slide. I'll see if I can get that in the show notes as well. \n\nThere's a slide in the companion to the Blueprint school card for this idea of a minimum viable commitment step. What is it based on the relationship that you have with someone? What is the extent of the thing that you can ask for? So there's this idea of the kind of x-axis at the bottom being rapport how much of a relationship you've got with people and then the y-axis up the side being the scale of the ask, the kind of commitment that you want from them, and the line, the line on the chart separating the two is this kind of threshold of commitment. \nSo, based on the rapport that you've got and the thing that you're asking, the threshold of commitment is how much you can ask them to the steps that you can ask them to take. So this idea of the minimum viable commitment is very much okay. Based on the fact that I've given them a little bit of information in the ad, can I ask them to go to this web page to read more, based on the offer of a book answering this one question, can I ask them for an email address? Based on what they've read and what I've shared with them in the book, can I ask them to complete an assessment or fill out a scorecard or give the office a call to ask a question? So all this kind of chess type approach of not just immediately putting something out there and going for the clothes, but building and building over time so that, whether they're ready on day one or day, a thousand at one, you've got something in place that's there waiting to waiting to catch them. \n\nBetsey: Yeah, I think that is. I was processing all of that as you're going along, but it I hope people listen to that the whole process that goes through, and think about what's out there and how they get to someone, how they can connect with someone. And again, it's not an SO day one, it could be day 365 that it happens and I'm going to go back and probably listen to what you just said again. \n\nStuart: And write that down. Check out the transcript. \n\nBetsey: I'm going to grab that transcript and look yeah.\n\nStuart: But that's the thing. If anyone's struggling with thinking I've had a book on the list today for a while, but it seems like such a big project that I'll get to it later then really thinking about those two things one, the book isn't the product, so forget about all of the fact that the customers, potential customers, receive us. On the other end, the fact that they are swept up by all of the, the persuasion elements of a book, the fact that a book carries some credibility with it, there's a authority that goes with an author, all of those things are fantastic and secondary benefits of having a book. But as the deliverer, as the person creating it, don't allow yourself to get caught up in the same nonsense, the fact that there's a psychological trick to a book that works on clients in the nicest possible way, then don't fall for that yourself. It doesn't have to be. You can achieve 85%, 90% of the benefits at 10% or 15% of the overhead. So yeah, so the first thing is don't get caught up in this thing that the book is a product. Forget about traditional publishing. You can benefit from some of the same elements of it, but don't get caught up with the same problems. \nSo, understanding that we know that the opportunity to start a conversation is now. The product is now the thing that we're interested in. So, in order to start that conversation, what can I best do, in a way that means it's most likely to get done? That's, identify who it is that you want to help, what it is that they're struggling with, and then what's the minimum effective book, what's the smallest but equally the most useful small piece of information I can share with them, which means that it is something that I'm likely to create and it is something that they're going to consume. And then we're going to present them a next step where they can learn more, and by this point we've captured their details, so we know who they are. So we can progress that conversation, add more value to the relationship and then, at every so often, ask them to take the next step with us. \n\nBetsey: Very good. Yeah, I think this is good to be back and doing it. It is. \n\nStuart: Yeah, it has been too long. \n\nBetsey: Yes, but it's good. It's a good reminder for us, but also for the people listening, how the process works and how you should be doing it. And if you look at it in a sense that I've got to write this human book and tell everybody everything I know, then that to me I would just go back to bed because that's extremely overwhelming to think about that and that's the whole idea and she's three years ago it's funny, yeah, and that's just it, and I think that's what happens. \nAnd then when people do it, they're like wow, okay, this was not as difficult as I thought, I didn't have to do as much work as I thought, and now I'm engaging with people that I could not engage with before even there's actual conversations, so that is definitely. That's some good information there, for sure. \n\nStuart: That is probably a good place to wrap, then, for this one, and then we'll save some the minimum effective podcast. \n\nBetsey: There we go. Yeah, I don't want to overwhelm people harp on too much about the same things this time, yeah. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's plenty more and well, and that's a great example actually. So we've talked about how to begin the process and think about it so that you really get moving before the end of this year to get ready for next year, because there's a timely opportunity in the year end, so it makes now a better time to get this done than later. But, just as we were talking about with the books, there's many more elements that at some point you need to know not necessarily today, but you need to know. So we should give people a place to find out more information. \nYeah, and the best one there probably is to head over to bookblueprintscorecom and complete the scorecard, because those eight mindsets the early ones really reiterate what we've talked about here today, and then some of the later ones talk about the thinking around creating the content itself and end the call to action and what you can do with the book once you've got it created. So bookblueprintscorecom is a great place to go. Just assess your thinking around the book that you're trying to create and we'll give some guidance on some better approaches to that. After Awesome, as you're going through, and then after you've filled it in. \n\nBetsey: Very good, you can always reach out at support at 90minutebookscom and you can come up on the call if you want to talk about it as well. \n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah, any questions? \n\nBetsey: reach out to us. We're always happy to help. \n\nStuart: Yeah. And then the last one, I guess, is we're thinking about this as we go along with the last one would be just get started. I mean the absolutely the quickest and fastest way to get this done is just us do it for you and guide you through the process and help you with all of the pain in the neck, production steps and covers and pulling it all together. So head over to 90minutebookscom for all of the packages that we've got over there Definitely by far the quickest way of doing it. \n\nBetsey: Yeah, there you go. \n\nStuart: This has been good, good to record some words with you again and looking forward to the next one. \n\nBetsey: All right, love again. Thank you. ","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, we're actually releasing a Book More Show!
\n\nThe reality of recording a podcast, or writing a book for that matter, is that it's not our day job. Our job is to help you write books, so once something interrupts the flow, it's so easy for the pattern to break and a week, a month, a year pass by.
\n\nWe hear it all the time with clients coming back two years later to finally start the book they thought they'd get done in a few weeks, and looking at the date of the last show, it happened to us with the podcast.
\n\nSo... we've acknowledged time got away from us, we know we have important ideas to share with you, we enjoy doing it (we're even publishing shows every week for others!!), so time to get back on the horse. This is an episode we recorded a few months ago & next week, we'll be back with a new one.
\n\nWe're getting the band back together!
\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
\n
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
\n\nStuart: Hey everyone, welcome to the Book More Show. My name is Stuart Bell and today we are well. Today we are actually going to release an episode. It's been a while.
\nI guess the reality of recording a show, or writing a book for that matter, is that typically it's not our day job. So over here, our day jobs have new guys write books, so something that interrupts the flow of the extra projects. It's easy for the pattern to break in a week turns into a month and before you know it, a month turns into a year. And here we are. We hear it all the time, actually, with clients coming back two years later to finally start the book that they thought would just take them a couple of weeks to finish. Looking at the day to the last show, that's exactly what's happened here. So with that, I guess acknowledgement is the first stage towards redemption.
\nDoing the podcast is something that we really love doing. Actually, we've got a stack of information to share with you guys, so it's good to get back on the horse At this episode we actually recorded a few months ago, so I'm going to share this with you now, and the next week we'll be back with a new episode. Okay, let's get the band back together. Let's see Vaughn.
Betsey: Stuart.
\n\nStuart: Betsey, how are you? Very good thanks. How's it going?
\n\nBetsey: Very good, very good.
\n\nStuart: I think today would be a good day for podcast.
\n\nBetsey: How about that?
\n\nStuart: Let's do it Sounds like a plan.
\n\nBetsey: Alright, what do you want to talk about?
\n\nStuart: So it is the week before Thanksgiving, which means that 2022 is disturbingly close, so I thought it would be a prompt for you with touching base, checking in the lay of land and making some suggestions for next year.
\n\nBetsey: Sounds like it. It definitely sounds like a plan. I can't believe that 2021 has flown by. I mean 2020, I feel like the last few years have just been a complete blur. What's?
\n\nStuart: sacrificed 2020 as a write-off 2021 is basically a bit more organised.
\n\nBetsey: That was a trick. I think that was really a trick. I don't know that we're any further. No, I think we are. That's not true. I mean, I think people are, they're back and they're there. They had a lot of time to plan and sit and think about strategies for the upcoming years. So I think our aim was being a lot of people do some new things. Everybody got a little more creative in how they do business and that kind of thing. A lot of people are interested in books.
\n\nStuart: So that's been pretty fortunate. Looking at being creative that time that passed by, I know people who can't talk to me they can't have to play the guitar or learn to paint or do something like that and looking back thinking, oh, that would have been a good opportunity to do something like that.
\n\nBetsey: That would have been great. I didn't do that. I didn't take up a new hobby or anything.
\n\nStuart: Realising it. Maybe talent was the thing that was holding me back. Oh, that's the problem.
\n\nBetsey: That's the problem. You know finding my daughter who loves music. She's 25. She loves music. She's had a guitar. She had guitar lessons as a child. She took piano, she did the choir. She asked me the other day to buy her a banjo for Christmas.
\n\nStuart: I said what?
\n\nBetsey: Oh, let's not do that. We're just not going to waste the money because we've been down the road with the instruments.
\n\nStuart: Banjo is far more hipster than the guitar, see.
\n\nBetsey: Right, exactly, but it's. I mean, she has talent and I just don't think that is one of them playing a musical instrument. So I'm going to skip right over that and buy one of the instruments Move on to the next one, exactly so yeah.
\n\nStuart: Okay. So I think that what we're seeing. So, like you were saying, we've been. We've had a number of clients all the way through the last couple of years. In fact, interestingly enough, we've probably had a bit of a peak earlier in the in 2020 that we did in 2021. As people, as things get back to normal and the day-to-day pressures of running the business come back into play and kind of adjusting to a slightly different, normal set of assumptions than there was in the year before. I think this year has gone back to normal in that sense. But what is super interesting is thinking about the opportunities for 2022. So, as we get in closer and closer, the thought that people are going to be picking up where they left off to a certain degree. Now, whatever, the current situation is probably going to be the way it's going to be for the next period of time.
\nSo, thinking about all of the work that had to be done, all of the customers that we were engaging, all of the business opportunities that were there two years ago, the opportunity to reach back out to those people now and start those conversations again, whether it's people that you're actually in conversation with or those, that kind of unknown group of customers who haven't quite yet raised their hand but who are now probably thinking about oh, it's time to do this thing again. A book is a great opportunity for the reason to reach out to them, knowing that those people are all out there but not knowing how to start the conversation. It's that idea that a book really solves, because it's a, like we've said all along, it's a great conversation starter.
Betsey: Yeah, hey. We haven't spoken in two years. So look what I've been doing. This is what this is what I did. There's some great information. Here is my book. I mean that's pretty impressive, I mean, when you think about it. Wow, didn't learn to play the banjo or the guitar, but this person wrote a book and that is. You know, that's impressive. That's a great way to get that conversation started.
\n\nStuart: And that's a great point, because the nature of the book itself, the type of the book itself, is less important than the fact that the book exists, both from the opportunity to start the conversation and the opportunity for positioning things in a different way and and reminding people that you were there and we were having a conversation or you were thinking about taking a step. The content of it is less important than the fact that exists, but the content of it. There's a couple of different, different mindsets you can have going into or different approaches you can take. So it could either be writing exactly the same book that you might have written a couple of years ago and now it's just getting it done. Nothing that's happened in the last couple of years has changed what the content would be, or it could be that fundamentally, something's changed. So you need to write the book about the new way of thinking about your particular subject, because things aren't the same anymore. Something's actually changed. Or it could be the perception of something's changed, so why it's important now, or how this can be used in this current climate where we find ourselves today the concept of how. It's how your thing, which actually hasn't changed, but the way people think about it or use it has changed. So for all three of those groups, I think, no matter where you are in terms of thinking about how am I going to create this? What is this thing that I'm going to create?
\n\nFor all three of those groups, the timing element the fact that now is a transitional period of time because we're going into a new year, so that's historically that's transitional. Anyway, people are thinking about planning for the year ahead more than perhaps they do in May that kind of conversation to crop up in people's minds so much but also on the coming out of the pandemic and whatever changes your customers had to make for that, and the fact that there's a kind of a marketplace opportunity where maybe other people aren't quite thinking about these marketing activities yet. They're still firefighting in the business or trying to come to terms with what was changed. So the now of writing something so that you have it available is much more important than perhaps two years ago or, honestly, even a year ago, because a year ago, unless something had very much changed and you were trying to communicate what's different, so like a very timely book, then writing something that was standard that was the way it's always been might just have got less traction, because everyone was thinking about what's different and what's new, not so much about what's the same.
\nI can't remember the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure I have been a Jeff Bezos quote that Dean was talking about a couple of weeks ago, saying that let's assume it was Jeff Bezos, it might not be, but he was saying it's not so much what change is in 20 years. That is where the business opportunity is. It's what's the same in 20 years because everyone gets caught up in the new and the flash in the different and wanting to invest in the future. But actually a lot of the fundamentals remain the same. If you double down on maximizing those, then there's a huge opportunity in what doesn't change, because then you can plan for the long term and amortize the costs of whatever effort you put in for the long term.
\nSo you can imagine a scenario where someone wrote a book on year-end tax planning. I mean there's a certain 10% of that, 20% of that might change in any given year, but 80% remains the same. But the same as us writing a book. I mean we will come up with, share different ideas with people and there's maybe some timely things that will change that people want to pay attention to, but the fundamentals remain the same. It's the fundamentals that we talk about in the book Lupin Score. It's knowing who you're going to talk to, knowing what it is that's going to capture their attention, sharing their valuable information. That moves the conversation towards an inevitable, obvious outcome, which means you can get in front of people. The way that we do that might change year to year, but the fundamentals remain the same.
Betsey: Yeah, very true yeah.
\n\nStuart: I forgot how I broke my voice.
\n\nBetsey: I have my water and my coffee going at the same time. Yeah, so let's go from there. On that whole getting started, I think what people ask me a lot is what do I do? How do I get this out there? How do I make it all happen? People really don't have a knowledge on the steps.
\n\nStuart: I know I should do it, but what do I need to do to get it?
\n\nBetsey: done. Oh, all the lots of shoulds that I should have done in five years ago, kind of thing.
\n\nStuart: I know and it's funny as now I was talking to someone in the podcasting space last week talking about the clients coming on board and they had maybe an expectation that they would come on board fast. It would be a short turnaround from that initial conversation to becoming a client and that really wasn't being the case. And I was using our example of we talked to people I mean three, four, five, six years ago. We had first conversations with them and then they're coming back to do it now and just as we started off, I mean we were saying that 2021 kind of evaporated pretty fast and that was on the back of 2020, which also kind of in one, on one hand, took forever and, on the other hand, disappeared in the blink of an eye.
\n\nIt's the same with dealing with clients. Unless you've got a very kind of transactional business or there's a deadline where they need to do something now, any other business where it's discretionary, it doesn't have to be done. It would be nice to have, but not a must have a year just disappears. And thinking about the leads that you're generating in terms of that kind of five year conversion not the one year conversion really makes a fundamental difference in both how effective you think of an individual campaign, how effective it is that you've done this lead generation work, but also the way that you stay in touch with people after that initial activity. So I think if you're too into the spectrum. So the one that we talk about a lot is Facebook ads promoting a book and then they download a copy of the book and there's a follow up sequence and auto responder that runs through.
\nThe likelihood of someone converting into buying a book or into doing whatever your business is, just from that book ad within a couple of days of an auto responder is probably relatively low. It's much more likely that these people, if you stay in touch with them over the long term, they're going to convert or do something, raise their hand in some kind of meaningful way over the next two years. So not getting disheartened if someone doesn't immediately come on board in the first two days, but equally knowing that you want an effective way of staying in touch with them for the next two years, that really makes a difference. And if you can get into the mindset of, okay, I'm building this pool of customers who are beginning to learn more about the process and out of the whole planet, these are the people who are the most likely to convert, even if they're not individually converting today. Then thinking of that as building an asset that is going to mature over the long term, it's really quite fundamentally changes it.
Betsey: I think about when I first started and we were doing Facebook ads and coming from my background in education, where I was in environment where people absolutely that we had a wait list and people wanted to just get in our school and that sort of thing. So, coming from that, where I didn't do we added zero advertising. I didn't, it was all it was word of mouth, which is the best way to get something out there. But we would do now, we would do these Facebook ads here on this side of this business and and I would just be sitting Okay, where are they like? Why aren't they coming up?
\nI got a little little poo poo about the Facebook ads, but what again, watching it over, the people who've interacted, who, like you said they downloaded. There's some interaction We've had with them, maybe even a conversation or two, and they're on our list and they will reach out once a while and respond to one of our incredible emails, that Informative emails that go out, and then finally they say that's what we hear. You have been on your list for two or three years and so when that started happening for me in this environment, I was like, ah, this is great. Okay, this is it this is you?
\nhave to reset your expectations.
Stuart: That's the first of all, and that difference between a business that's got very limited supply You've got only so many places in the classes that you can fill and there's a huge demand, because it's seen as like a qualitative difference of a high-performing school versus school that has other issues and there's a very specific externally mandated deadline. Their kid is starting school on September, the first Somewhere, whether it's there or not so all of those three things.
\nIt's not many other businesses that have that type of setup, in many more in the situation that we're in. There. There's a great service that can be beneficial to people, but it's not particularly Practically speaking. It's not capacity constrained, because we can scale to whatever level we need to scale. There's no hard deadline. There's no mandated deadline saying people have to do it by this point. It's just opportunity costs that people are losing of not doing it sooner and the same, I think.
Betsey: Yeah, that's the funny thing, because that's what we have a client who came on board in 2018 maybe that maybe being a 2019 and he started his book and we finished the first version of it and then he just stopped because his business was doing things. And then he came back and and he has said, even though he's super, super excited to share with you today, he was excited about, oh my gosh, he's following on Amazon, he's following up his print book and it was him that was holding up the process because life just took over and but you know, he has said well, there's, you know, so many. These last couple of years there's been some missed opportunities, not to have an opportunity to put it out. There's been one last thing I've had to to reach out to my client for, and that's the main thing, isn't it?
\n\nStuart: I mean, it's not so much that whether you get your book written or not to whether you do it with us or not, I'll do it by yourself. It's not so much that the cocks ticking on that, but it's the opportunity to Reach out to the customers, knowing that Day one it's like the compounding idea. It's not so much that day one, two or three, if it doubles, doubles, doubles those days aren't very interesting. But then when you get up to days 364, 365, if we're still doubling every day, it's the numbers at the end that are dramatically big. So, having this out there and missing one opportunity to have it as a way to start the conversation, or two opportunities, or three, it's the idea that these leads are building into a pool and every lead that you don't get to put in there, it's one at the end and potentially a multiple of one at the end that is missing out.
\n\nYeah, yeah, I Guess at this point, if anyone's getting to this point in the podcast, though, they've don't know, cool, I don't know ready to go on creating something, so Probably not this. Yeah, we need to convince, although maybe is this audience that we need to convince to pull the trigger now because we send the podcast out to thousands more people and we have customers. So yeah, if you are listening.
\n\nBetsey: You shared with somebody the other day, had listened to all the podcasts and and so I think about that. I wonder, like, how many of our clients have been on that list? And that's, it's another tool is another tool that we send out to people that way to engage with people? And we've been, we have, we did, we have slapped in 20, 21 just with this aspect, but it's just a little bit of information. It's easy information for people to gather, but it's always it's interesting to me to hear people say, oh, listen to the podcast and then they will come on board, because I honestly don't always think about this as a tool. That Might be something that's rude. Someone.
\n\nStuart: I talk so much if forget that other people listening to this one. Well, on that, then. So that. So the question you asked before. People have a conversation and have a kind of unclear next step in mind, so I'll talk as if people are working with us, because that's the easier context. But if you're not, if you're trying to do this by yourself, they're just substitute you out, traveling the blanks in a bit that I'll talk about. That we do, and you'll have to do that yourself, but the framework is still the same for everyone.
\nSo I think the most important thing when thinking about what's the best step for 2020 is get past this idea of the content of the book or what the book is more important than the fact that a book exists, because, honestly, it's not. The most important thing is that a book exists and there's a certain number of people who would eventually become clients. Even if you had a book with no words on, if you just had the cover that was no content, there would be a number of people who would convert, because what they're looking to do, they're not looking to be entertained by the content of your book. You're not writing a John Grisham thriller. You're writing something to help them solve the problem. Now, a lot of the solving of the problem, ultimately, is you doing it for them. So if the book moves them closer to that step, some of them are going to take that step, regardless of what the content is or isn't. So I think Excuse me I think that's the most important thing is get past this idea of the book itself is the key thing, because, also, what that does is it frees you up from the Paralysis, analysis paralysis of making the book Turning into this big thing that it's got to be perfect or you've got to do it in a certain way, or it's got to have a certain amount of content, or it's got to tick all of these boxes.
The traditional book would tick because the traditional book is the product you're selling them, the book. That's the reason for writing it in this context. That's not what we're talking about at all. You're selling the idea of there's a fix to a problem. That's out there. We're closing the gap on understanding. Now Obviously not Seriously suggesting having no content in the book. That's ridiculous. But it just to break that break that hang up that people have of separating the Job of work of this, which is to start a conversation with someone that leads to helping them resolve something, versus the book as a product, a traditional book, where it's actually the words on the page that are the thing that you're selling.
\nSo, with that in mind, once you've accepted that, then the next thing to do is okay, well, what is gonna? What's gonna help people the most? What are the problems that they're struggling with? What answer can I provide them that's really gonna help them achieve more in whatever? Why have a business or whatever Industry or framework or challenge? What is it that they're struggling with that I can help, because it's understanding those questions. That is then really gonna help them raise their hands, so you know who they are, so you can deliver more information to them.
\nSo one of the ones that passed over the desk recently was the 2021 Social Security Guide. So this is a book we've actually got a couple of versions of it that we work with some private clients with and that is used for various CPAs financial advisor type people to identify clients who are approaching retirement, and then you can work with them to deal with a bigger portfolio. All of these people are dealing with a high net worth individuals, so the Social Security itself isn't really that much of the portfolio, so it's less about the actual. That's not their only financial arrow in their quiver. They've got lots of other things, but it's the thing that's consistent to everyone who's paying attention to that element of their life, thinking about retirement they're coming up towards, they're doing some planning for their finances around retirement.
\nSocial Security is one element that's consistent. So the idea that group of people are going to be interested just in the fundamentals of Social Security and the nuts and bolts of what's happening in 2021, that is a key way of getting that group of people to raise their hands. Now we know that from a book called the 2021 Social Security Guide. No one's necessarily going to immediately convert into paying wealth management fees to manage their portfolio, but it's the first step in that conversation. All of that group of people are interested in this subject. This subject is the gateway to other things and the information that we're providing within this book is valuable and specific and time-based and useful and is bite-sized enough so that, within something that we can practically write and someone that can easily read, it's answering that question.
Betsey: So bite-sized that's a great little term there. Bite-sized because that's one thing that people, I think, struggle with making sure, even though the book is there, not as an important factor, but when you talk about the content there, people always say well, how do I know I'm not giving too much away? How do I know if I give a tax column? Everything I know for everything and they're not going to call me.
\n\nStuart: That idea of giving it all away is so crazy.
\n\nBetsey: We're not going to write that book.
\n\nStuart: No one's going to write that book and no one's going to want to read that book either. It's so funny for a couple of reasons. One is this idea that a bite-sized book is like the minimum effective dose of starting the conversation, and this is what we're trying to achieve. So separating out the book as a product from the book as a tool to start a conversation and the conversation as a product. I'm willing to accept that's not what everyone thinks and it's a way, it's a thought technology that we have that is hugely beneficial from a marketing campaign perspective and building your business. So that's why we never talk about ourselves as a publishing company. We're a marketing company and books are the tools that we use to achieve that marketing goal. So I'm quite willing to accept that for a lot of people, that thought technology is something new I mean, it's not rocket science, but it's not necessarily what people are thinking about but this idea of I have to write everything and get it into this huge book and but then I'm concerned about giving it all away In 2021, anyone that thinks that they're giving away everything, when literally, they're probably having this thought whilst looking at a phone that's connected to the internet, and then there's the entirety of the internet out there.
\nSo anyone that thinks that the information itself is unique is, I mean, just delusional. I mean 20 years ago I could understand it, because information is hard to come by and if you didn't have access to the right sources, but now I mean that just hasn't been true for 18 years and definitely hasn't been true in the last 10 years. So, yeah, that is, and usually when we're debating things, I'm usually in the middle and devil's advocate in both sides. But that idea is just stupid and I'm like no, no, and that's my thing.
Betsey: Like you know who wants to read your five or six hundred page book, so I never want to read your two hundred page book. I mean really you know it's not it's.
\n\nStuart: It's a starting of the conversation, unless you've got an audience who are now I'm trying, to devil's advocate, to justify when it would make sense. But I mean, there's potential I can't even I'm struggling to even come up with when you're looking at a marketing tool, the lead tool.
\n\nBetsey: There's. No, there's not. Now, if you are looking at someone who's a public author self help or yeah, those books tend to be a little bit bigger you're giving them a lot more information. But again, any of that information, most of that information, I can, I can put it right here in my little handy dandy phone and and pull it all out, but you know, so that's the thing.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, that's the thing. Those examples you gave. Where makes sense is where the book is the product. So where the book is the product, then you have to make the book worth, whatever the cover price is. But honestly, anyone who's well I can't imagine anyone who's listening here is thinking of the book as being a product and making money from the book. Everyone's. The book is the introduction to the conversation. So this idea of giving it all away and being concerned about that is just it's shooting you in the foot because you're comparing your thing. It's not an apples to apples comparison. You're trying to compare your thing that you're trying to create to a, an author who has either got a huge academic career, who has got a huge amount of publicity, who has already written a large number of books already on Amazon, where you where books like that are selling for 12, 15, $20. And if there's no way, you just can't compare. You can't compare with that, so it's not even worth trying. And your brain trying to compare it to that is just shooting you in the foot because it's just not a comparison.
\n\nBetsey: So they're selling that book and they want to make the money out of that book versus what you as the business owner are. You're just trying to use that as to make the money from the foundation. So build your clientele that way, and I think that's one thing.
\n\nStuart: So within that and within that then. So the trick is to think about okay, well, what is the most effective thing to do? So all of this knowledge that's out there I know that I'm not going to share all of it, because not that it's magical, provides you information that I'm going to give away but just it's not practical to do and it's not effective to do either. It would be a complete waste of time to spend two years trying to get all of this information into this book because no one's going to read it all or it's just not as effective as using that information in different ways. So by thinking about okay, the job of working the book is to start the conversation and lead people, help them identify themselves to my world, and then my world can share more information with them, and that additional information can be some of the additional stuff that isn't included in the book, but within the book itself. We need to make sure that we need beneficial constraints. It's one of the book blueprint scorecard mindsets. We need beneficial constraints to make sure that we're likely to get this thing finished. So those constraints could be scope constraints in terms of the subject, or time constraints in terms of when we need to get it done, or effort constraints, which is a little bit different, more difficult to measure, but I've got 10 units of effort a week that I can put into this, and if it demands any more than that, then I'm just not gonna get it done. So those beneficial constraints the whole reason they're beneficial is because it's the thing that gets us to get it out the door.
\nSo, thinking about what the we're going into 2022, everyone's coming back out into the world they're starting to pick up projects or thinking about doing things that they couldn't do before. Maybe they want to do things, but they're still unable to because of the tail end of the pandemic. Maybe there are certain reasons why they can't do these things, so they need to know that bit of information, or they need to just be reminded of the general, the evergreen information that is just gonna help them move forward with it. But I can't and don't want to give all of that in the pages of the book, not because of any concern about giving it all away, but just because I need a beneficial constraint to make sure that it gets done. So what's the questions on their mind? What are their concerns and their challenges that they're trying to get past now that I can write something that's gonna resonate with them, to help them with that one little piece in the puzzle that then starts the conversation and then moves them into my world so that we can start sharing more information with them over the next whatever period of time until they convert.
\nSo really, the biggest step that anyone can take, whether they're working with us or doing it themselves, is think about, is understand, that job of work. It's start in the conversation and then thinking about okay, well, with that constraint in mind, who is it that I can best help and what is it that they really need to know to help them move forward? But this first step I'm not gonna write something that takes them all the way, because I'm not gonna write it and they're not gonna read it, but what is the first step that's really gonna help them and then allow them to move on and consume more stuff over the next period of time? The email mastery book is a great example, because that book was that Dean wrote was taken from a podcast, a podcast that was recorded a few years ago. It was the content was created really just by transcribing and editing that podcast. So in fact, I think I'm not even sure that we've ever edited that book.
To be honest, if we have, it was only a very quick kind of proofread of it, because that wasn't the job of work. The job of work was get the conversation going and lead people towards presenting them with the offer of some of the other email mastery stuff, so it didn't need to be. It's almost an example of one of the ones that could have been blank. I mean obviously not quite, but the content really wasn't the main thing. So very easy to create, very on point, because it shares a couple of great ideas for email funnels. So it's really leading people towards thinking that. But one of the main marketing channels to get people to even be aware of it was the email mastery ad that we ran in Success Magazine. So that was just one of the and actually I'll put that. I'll put that ad in the show notes. So on the podcast, follow the link on the podcast player or head over to 90minutebookscom forward slash podcast and check out the notes for this episode. I'll put that ad in there because the ad was talking. It was an explainer or an article that was written about the nine word email and this definition of the nine word email and what it is and who it's beneficial for. So there was an article that talked about useful information in 300 words or so. Then there was the option, the lead. The next step is to grab a free copy of this book that talks about the seven or eight other strategies, and then from the book it leads towards the email mastery program, which has got a whole host of additional information. And then monthly calls, q&a calls with Dean to talk about email campaigns. So when you think about that, in this, whatever your business, is the very small introduction step, the fact, the thing that people are gonna see first. So, whether it was an ad or an article or a comment or a form post or a video, whatever, it is the very small piece the logically leads to the next bigger piece, the opt-in, this kind of minimum viable commitment step. The commitment is you need a name and email address from them. So what is it that you can give them that's valuable enough, just for the cost of the name and email address, and then that provides more additional valuable information within that same kind of the same problem that you're trying to solve. And then there's a call to action at the end of that that leads them into the next minimum viable commitment step. So it's all this staged approach and it all comes back to this idea of we're looking to build an asset of contact with people who have expressed an interest. So the seven billion people on the planet, it's the 700 who are the most likely to convert. I don't know when they're gonna convert, I'm not in their head. I can't force them to convert, but what I wanna do is provide them some value that leads them towards giving up their email address. They get some on the list where I can deliver even more value so that at some point in the future, when they're ready, I'm just constantly presenting options where they can take the next step adding value, adding information, building the rapport. There was a slide. I'll see if I can get that in the show notes as well.
\n\nThere's a slide in the companion to the Blueprint school card for this idea of a minimum viable commitment step. What is it based on the relationship that you have with someone? What is the extent of the thing that you can ask for? So there's this idea of the kind of x-axis at the bottom being rapport how much of a relationship you've got with people and then the y-axis up the side being the scale of the ask, the kind of commitment that you want from them, and the line, the line on the chart separating the two is this kind of threshold of commitment.
\nSo, based on the rapport that you've got and the thing that you're asking, the threshold of commitment is how much you can ask them to the steps that you can ask them to take. So this idea of the minimum viable commitment is very much okay. Based on the fact that I've given them a little bit of information in the ad, can I ask them to go to this web page to read more, based on the offer of a book answering this one question, can I ask them for an email address? Based on what they've read and what I've shared with them in the book, can I ask them to complete an assessment or fill out a scorecard or give the office a call to ask a question? So all this kind of chess type approach of not just immediately putting something out there and going for the clothes, but building and building over time so that, whether they're ready on day one or day, a thousand at one, you've got something in place that's there waiting to waiting to catch them.
Betsey: Yeah, I think that is. I was processing all of that as you're going along, but it I hope people listen to that the whole process that goes through, and think about what's out there and how they get to someone, how they can connect with someone. And again, it's not an SO day one, it could be day 365 that it happens and I'm going to go back and probably listen to what you just said again.
\n\nStuart: And write that down. Check out the transcript.
\n\nBetsey: I'm going to grab that transcript and look yeah.
\n\nStuart: But that's the thing. If anyone's struggling with thinking I've had a book on the list today for a while, but it seems like such a big project that I'll get to it later then really thinking about those two things one, the book isn't the product, so forget about all of the fact that the customers, potential customers, receive us. On the other end, the fact that they are swept up by all of the, the persuasion elements of a book, the fact that a book carries some credibility with it, there's a authority that goes with an author, all of those things are fantastic and secondary benefits of having a book. But as the deliverer, as the person creating it, don't allow yourself to get caught up in the same nonsense, the fact that there's a psychological trick to a book that works on clients in the nicest possible way, then don't fall for that yourself. It doesn't have to be. You can achieve 85%, 90% of the benefits at 10% or 15% of the overhead. So yeah, so the first thing is don't get caught up in this thing that the book is a product. Forget about traditional publishing. You can benefit from some of the same elements of it, but don't get caught up with the same problems.
\nSo, understanding that we know that the opportunity to start a conversation is now. The product is now the thing that we're interested in. So, in order to start that conversation, what can I best do, in a way that means it's most likely to get done? That's, identify who it is that you want to help, what it is that they're struggling with, and then what's the minimum effective book, what's the smallest but equally the most useful small piece of information I can share with them, which means that it is something that I'm likely to create and it is something that they're going to consume. And then we're going to present them a next step where they can learn more, and by this point we've captured their details, so we know who they are. So we can progress that conversation, add more value to the relationship and then, at every so often, ask them to take the next step with us.
Betsey: Very good. Yeah, I think this is good to be back and doing it. It is.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, it has been too long.
\n\nBetsey: Yes, but it's good. It's a good reminder for us, but also for the people listening, how the process works and how you should be doing it. And if you look at it in a sense that I've got to write this human book and tell everybody everything I know, then that to me I would just go back to bed because that's extremely overwhelming to think about that and that's the whole idea and she's three years ago it's funny, yeah, and that's just it, and I think that's what happens.
\nAnd then when people do it, they're like wow, okay, this was not as difficult as I thought, I didn't have to do as much work as I thought, and now I'm engaging with people that I could not engage with before even there's actual conversations, so that is definitely. That's some good information there, for sure.
Stuart: That is probably a good place to wrap, then, for this one, and then we'll save some the minimum effective podcast.
\n\nBetsey: There we go. Yeah, I don't want to overwhelm people harp on too much about the same things this time, yeah.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's plenty more and well, and that's a great example actually. So we've talked about how to begin the process and think about it so that you really get moving before the end of this year to get ready for next year, because there's a timely opportunity in the year end, so it makes now a better time to get this done than later. But, just as we were talking about with the books, there's many more elements that at some point you need to know not necessarily today, but you need to know. So we should give people a place to find out more information.
\nYeah, and the best one there probably is to head over to bookblueprintscorecom and complete the scorecard, because those eight mindsets the early ones really reiterate what we've talked about here today, and then some of the later ones talk about the thinking around creating the content itself and end the call to action and what you can do with the book once you've got it created. So bookblueprintscorecom is a great place to go. Just assess your thinking around the book that you're trying to create and we'll give some guidance on some better approaches to that. After Awesome, as you're going through, and then after you've filled it in.
Betsey: Very good, you can always reach out at support at 90minutebookscom and you can come up on the call if you want to talk about it as well.
\n\nStuart: Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah, any questions?
\n\nBetsey: reach out to us. We're always happy to help.
\n\nStuart: Yeah. And then the last one, I guess, is we're thinking about this as we go along with the last one would be just get started. I mean the absolutely the quickest and fastest way to get this done is just us do it for you and guide you through the process and help you with all of the pain in the neck, production steps and covers and pulling it all together. So head over to 90minutebookscom for all of the packages that we've got over there Definitely by far the quickest way of doing it.
\n\nBetsey: Yeah, there you go.
\n\nStuart: This has been good, good to record some words with you again and looking forward to the next one.
\n\nBetsey: All right, love again. Thank you.
","summary":"Today on the Book More Show, we're actually releasing a Book More Show!\r\n\r\nThe reality of recording a podcast, or writing a book for that matter, is that it's not our day job. Our job is to help you write books, so once something interrupts the flow, it's so easy for the pattern to break and a week, a month, a year pass by.\r\n\r\nWe hear it all the time with clients coming back two years later to finally start the book they thought they'd get done in a few weeks, and looking at the date of the last show, it happened to us with the podcast.\r\n\r\nSo... we've acknowledged time got away from us, we know we have important ideas to share with you, we enjoy doing it (we're even publishing shows every week for others!!), so time to get back on the horse. This is an episode we recorded a few months ago & next week, we'll be back with a new one.\r\n\r\nWe're getting the band back together!","date_published":"2022-05-06T14:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/ec29822e-70af-4bac-adc2-d742b02de8a0.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":31203369,"duration_in_seconds":2590}]},{"id":"3445aba9-ccc0-44b9-a507-210b96dc91ba","title":"Ep113: Get Ready for the Roaring 20's","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/113","content_text":"Today on the Book More Show, Betsey & I have a great conversation about the potential of the 'Roaring 20's' and the opportunity to start engaging with future customers now by sharing ways they can make the most of the current situation. \n\nEveryone's optimistic about the potential for the next 6-24 months, but the day-to-day reality for many might be quite different. Whether it's new rules and regulations, different ways of working, or customers wanting different experiences, many will need to adapt.\n\nIt's this change that presents the opportunity for you. Whether you're working with B2B or B2C clients, thinking about what's changed for them, and helping them navigate these changes by writing a book that solves their 'today' problem, will build relationships that lead to business tomorrow.\n\nLINKS\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/113\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com","content_html":"Today on the Book More Show, Betsey & I have a great conversation about the potential of the 'Roaring 20's' and the opportunity to start engaging with future customers now by sharing ways they can make the most of the current situation.
\n\nEveryone's optimistic about the potential for the next 6-24 months, but the day-to-day reality for many might be quite different. Whether it's new rules and regulations, different ways of working, or customers wanting different experiences, many will need to adapt.
\n\nIt's this change that presents the opportunity for you. Whether you're working with B2B or B2C clients, thinking about what's changed for them, and helping them navigate these changes by writing a book that solves their 'today' problem, will build relationships that lead to business tomorrow.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/113
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I’m talking with Betsey Vaughn about work we’ve recently been doing with some clients to customize their books to capture the current moment. Writing with a specific purpose is always our advice. Whether you have a book you’re looking to repurpose, or you have a message or framework you can tailor to reflect what’s happening in the world, clearly showing why your message is useful at this moment is a great way to engage people. There are various ways to achieve this, some more effective than others, but at the end of the day, it comes back to knowing your single target audience and having a purposeful outline.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/112
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Whether you have a book you’re looking to repurpose, or you have a message or framework you can tailor to reflect what’s happening in the world, clearly showing why your message is useful at this moment is a great way to engage people. There are various ways to achieve this, some more effective than others, but at the end of the day, it comes back to knowing your single target audience and having a purposeful outline.","date_published":"2020-09-27T07:00:00.000-04:00","attachments":[{"url":"https://aphid.fireside.fm/d/1437767933/95265e63-1410-4479-88a0-059688e1dcb1/4f55df46-95ed-4ae3-bd23-460e25e6c833.mp3","mime_type":"audio/mpeg","size_in_bytes":33858560,"duration_in_seconds":2767}]},{"id":"93ffe0d5-f65e-4599-aa12-a86dd3b5c4f7","title":"Ep111: Intentionality","url":"https://bms.fireside.fm/111","content_text":"Today on the Book More Show, I’m talking with Betsey Vaughn about the intentionality you have when it comes to your book.\n\nPeople often think about this in terms of the purpose or job of work of their book, but really, intentionality applies to each part of your book, from the obvious elements like title and call to action, through to the often overlooked parts like the intentionality of examples you use to reinforce your message.\n\nAll of this is easier when you start with the end in mind and have a clear target audience, with an easy to follow next step you want people to take.\n\nLike a chess player thinking ten moves ahead, when you know the path you want people to follow, each part of the process can be tuned to this outcome.\n\nThis is a great episode looking at ways to get that bit extra from the work you are doing to create your book.\n\nLINKS\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/111\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews\n\nQuestions/Feedback: Send us an email\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com","content_html":"
Today on the Book More Show, I’m talking with Betsey Vaughn about the intentionality you have when it comes to your book.
\n\nPeople often think about this in terms of the purpose or job of work of their book, but really, intentionality applies to each part of your book, from the obvious elements like title and call to action, through to the often overlooked parts like the intentionality of examples you use to reinforce your message.
\n\nAll of this is easier when you start with the end in mind and have a clear target audience, with an easy to follow next step you want people to take.
\n\nLike a chess player thinking ten moves ahead, when you know the path you want people to follow, each part of the process can be tuned to this outcome.
\n\nThis is a great episode looking at ways to get that bit extra from the work you are doing to create your book.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/111
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I’m talking with Betsey Vaughn about the importance of knowing who you’re writing for and picking a single target audience.
\n\nThis is the first mindset in the Book Blueprint Scorecard, and it’s first for a reason.
\n\nMany people are fearful of missing out on potential customers by being too niche. The truth is, your book has a specific job of work to do, starting a conversation with potential clients, and it does that best by talking directly to them in a way that resonates.
\n\nFor most businesses, it would be a challenge to be too niche. Think about your customers for a moment. Of all the types of people you work with, how niche would you have to go before dominating that group is too small to be worthwhile?
\n\nBeing specific has enormous benefits, not only in the book you write but also in who you advertise it too, how you follow up, and the supporting information you share to amplify the point and compel people to take the next step.
\n\nIt also makes it much, much, much easier!
\n\nThere are some great examples in this show to help get your idea dialed in and your book out there.
\n\nAnd don’t forget to complete your own scorecard below.
\n\nLINKS
\nComplete your own score card: BookBlueprintScore.com
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/110
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Betsey Vaughn about ways to amplify the message of your book.
\n\nWe know it takes most people months or years, rather than days or weeks, to become a client, so you need a way to stay in touch with people until they are ready.
\n\nA regular flagship broadcast email, like a podcast release, is great, but there's also the opportunity to create micro-funnels of content by amplifying specific points from your book. These mini-campaigns can be sent to people throughout the year, and the best part is they're easy to create as you've done all the hard work to get the words in your book already.
\n\nPicking 5 or 6 key points to amplify, then recording video or writing emails that go deeper into that point, is the fastest way to create relevant, engaging content people want to receive. Releasing these as mini-campaigns with a call to action will allow potential clients to take action and move to the next step.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/109
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More show, we're talking with JW Oliver, who recently wrote 'Rise of the Remote Workforce' and is the owner of insourcing company ZimWorx.com.
\n\nOne of my favorite shows is having the opportunity to talk with the authors we've worked with, and as JW's just finished writing his book that walks people through the benefits of a global team, I wanted to get him on the show to share his story.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about his organization, the work they do to help entrepreneurs source skilled staff, at typically 30% of the cost, and how the real benefit is the leverage and capability this creates, rather than merely the cost savings.
\n\nSomething that is particularly timely given the current pandemic, as more companies are being forced to adapt to a remote way of working anyway.
\n\nWe finished up talking about his book, and it's great to listen to his insights around how it came about, how he plans to use it, and the idea of framing a resource (your book) for a specific purpose.
\n\nWriting a book that addresses a single target audience, that carries people through the first few steps of their relationship with you is key. It gets readers to the point where you're more likely to have an informed conversation and creates something that amplifies your reach and impact.
\n\nI really enjoyed this chat with JW, and there's a lot you can take away as you think about starting more conversations with potential clients.
\n\nLearn more about J.W’s company at ZimWorx.com or get a copy of the book from GlobalTeamBook.com
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/108
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm joined by Betsey Vaughn to talk about two of the first steps you should take to promote your book. It doesn't matter if your book is brand new, or something you've had for some time. The opportunity is in presenting it to people in a way that gives them value today.
\n\nIt's a conversation that's come up several times in strategy calls over the summer, and this is the perfect chance to share these simple ideas of ways to spread the word.
\n\nSo, in the show, we're going to look at the emails or letters you can send to those people who already know, like, and trust you. We then talk about some simple strategies to use video to leverage the work you've already done and create content that amplifies your message and can be used to regularly stay in touch with people.
\n\nYour opportunity to work with people really starts by regularly keeping in touch until they are ready, and the ideas in today's show are a great way to do just that.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/107
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I grabbed some time with Dean Jackson to talk about why NOW is the best time to write your book.
\n\nWe often work with people who've wanted to create a book for years but get held back by something, so today we talk about why your idea is the important thing, rather than how it's packaged, about your title being the catalyst that can get you going, and we finished up by talking about a better way to invest your time and money in your book so you can collect all the names you need.
\n\nIt's always great to get Dean's perspective and go deeper into this idea that your book isn't the product. It's how you identify people excited to talk about your idea, and then introduce your product or service that can help them.
\n\nIf you've thought about writing in the last few years, this is the episode you need to listen to and pull the trigger to get started.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/106
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Betsy Vaughn about following up with people once they get a copy of your book, specifically email followup, and the opportunity you have to engage potential customers or clients in a conversation.
\n\nIt's one of the most important and overlooked chances you have to really amplify your message, present readers with an opportunity to take the next step and keep presenting this next step until they're ready.
\n\nWe go through some specific examples of the followup sequences we use, and there are a lot of ideas you can take and use for your followup.
\n\nI'm excited to get to this episode; it's something we always get questions about.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/105
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, Betsey & I talk about a subject I love, the idea of syndicating your book & allowing other people to use it to start a conversation.
\n\nThis is so powerful & we've worked with many projects that have really used this idea to leverage the value of a book across multiple team members, coaching clients, or organizations you run marketing for.
\n\nEveryone understands the power of having a book, but it's only someone like you who has taken steps to make that a reality. Syndicating a book to others who are unable or unwilling to take those steps allows you to charge for this as a service.
\n\nEven better, you don't even need to know any of the technical steps, because we can do that for you. You can concentrate on creating the best content, and working with your clients to implement the strategy in the best way.
\n\nWhether you have ten agents in your office, you coach 100 Dentists, or you work in an insurance group of 1000's, solving this lead generation problem for people can be a huge revenue opportunity.
\n\nNo matter what business you're in, if you have a book idea that can be used across your industry, just email hello@90minutebooks.com and we can talk about the potential.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/104
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I grab some time with Betsey to talk about a question that's come up a few times over the last few weeks. This idea of helping you quickly get your completed book in front of people by thinking about how you initially plan to use it ahead of time.
\n\nFinding the quick audience wins and deciding if a digital or a print approach works best can also inform some of the decisions you make in the creation process and help stop you wasting time on elements that aren't initially important.
\n\nAbove all, you want to get your book in front of people, and the clearer you can be in all of the steps, including the format, the more likely you are to get it done.
\n\nThere are some great ideas you can apply to your book, as we look at some of the differences between print & digital.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/103
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Laura Bruce, one of our authors from New Zealand.
\n\nLaura is the type of person to grab hold of the current situation rather than retreat from it. She's lived in several countries, she's helped many people professionally across her carer's and with the current situation, she grabbed hold of the idea of publishing a book to help people who are struggling to find things to do, a month into the lockdowns.
\n\nAs you'll hear, this wasn't a book designed to change the world, she didn't really have a specific intent or next step for readers, she just wanted to get something helpful out there, and the impressive thing is how quickly she followed up on the idea.
\n\nThis was a great conversation because although she didn't write this book with a mind to more business, our conversation turned to all the ways she can leverage the asset she now has, and create opportunities to promote her PR company and their services, as small businesses get back on their feet.
\n\nThe great thing is, this all happens in addition to the original intent of just helping people. But by also looking for ways to bridge this book into other speaking gigs, media opportunities, or even just content for her email list, she has the opportunity to maximize the work she's put in.
\n\nI really enjoyed the conversation with Laura, and the ideas we got to are applicable for everyone as we look to engage new customers as the lockdowns hopefully draw to a close.
\n\nThe next few months are critical to all our businesses, and finding a way to start a conversation with future customers today will take you many steps closer to new business tomorrow.
\n\nLINKS
\nMore about Laura: LockdownLivingBook.com
Show notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/102
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Betsey Vaughn about the opportunity to engage people in the current moment.
\n\nThere are unprecedented challenges as we all get used to today's 'new normal,' but in these changes are opportunities to be a leading voice and add value to those who could benefit from your knowledge.
\n\nIt doesn't have to be earth-shattering insights. People still are still looking to buy flowers, run their business, or plan for their retirement, but NOW is a unique time to share your ideas and start a conversation, especially if you consider and write based on how the current situation is impacting your readers.
\n\nWe talk about some great examples in today's show, and no matter what business you're in, something will resonate and focus your mind on finding your opportunity.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/101
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we’ve got a great podcast catching up with Dean Jackson.
\n\nThis is a special episode for a few reasons. First, it’s always great to have Dean on the show ;) second, it’s episode 100 and milestones like that are always important, and third and most importantly, we are in some special times at the moment. With people coming to terms with the current ’normal’, it’s a great opportunity to look at what we think will be some of the permanent changes to come from this situation, and what we can do now to be ready for it.
\n\nAs people are forced to adopt technology like Zoom, Google Classroom, Slack in a way they could avoid before, it overcomes the resistance to change, and for those situations where a virtual option is more convenient, it’s likely these will be the changes that stick.
\n\nTaking note of how you as a business owner and customer, overcome social distancing, looking to see how others are putting out content to engage virtually, can uncover huge opportunities and ways to streamline how you connect with people.
\n\nNecessity is the mother of invention at the moment, and while some things will get back to the way they were, many others won’t, and for every problem that causes, it will be an opportunity for others.
\n\nWithout doubt, there are more challenges ahead, but as we move forward, be on the lookout for these special cause variations.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/100
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, Betsey & I talk about how things look, a week into the rolling lockdowns.
\n\nAs we talk with clients across the country, we’re getting an insight into how the physical restrictions affect the way people engage with customers, but we’re also starting to see all the amazing ways people are stepping up to provide help, content, and entertainment to people as they spend more time at home.
\n\nDepending on where you are in the country (or the world for that matter, with the UK & Florida now just announcing some of the same closures we’ve had in PA), you’ll be on different parts of the curve, both as a consumer & a business owner. The thing that appears very likely for everyone though is at some point you’ll need to deal with your physical location closing.
\n\nSo, taking a note from the serenity prayer, in this episode, we look to accept the things we can’t change and make a plan for those we can.
\n\nThere are some great examples of people finding amazing ways to keep in touch with clients and potential customers, so we talk about ways of both dealing with the present, and positioning yourself for when everything returns to ‘normal’.
\n\nSome challenging times ahead. Stay safe. Be helpful.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/099
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Sam Altawil from just outside Sacramento, California.
\n\nSam is the author of On the Edge of Effectiveness, a book dedicated to helping individuals and organizations make the most of their HR capabilities, and I really wanted to get Sam on the show to talk about why he wanted to write his book, and his experience almost a year later.
\n\nHis is an interesting book because he doesn't have a specific commercial intent. Rather than having a specific product or service to promote, Sam's goal was to share the knowledge he has and help people avoid some of the mistakes he's seen.
\n\nIt lead to a great book, very authentic in its message, and now he's in a position of wanting to add more value, having received feedback from the first version being out in the real world.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about how to best do this while keeping in mind one of the Book Blueprint mindsets of Beneficial Constraints. How can we best include the information most valuable in the book, and provide a way for people to continue the journey, without the usual lead model of guiding someone toward a specific outcome?
\n\nI really enjoyed this call. Sam's passion for his subject comes through in everything he does, and this conversation about adding the right value to the pages, and having the right information elsewhere is very useful to everyone, whether you have commercial intent or not.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/098
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show I'm talking with Betsey about an issue that's come up a lot recently, people underestimating how much time and effort is involved with doing the production work of creating a book yourself.
\n\nGetting your words onto a page is something everyone has some experience of. We all write emails, documents, letters, reports, so it's easy to think that laying out a book falls into this same category.
\n\nThe reality is the level of detail required to satisfy your ideas, as well as the technical print and production requirements, can be a challenge to the most skilled Word-smith, let alone trying to do it yourself.
\n\nWe often find that people come back and talk to us months or even years later, having wanted to take the DIY route, but running into the production details that can slow down the most well-intentioned author.
\n\nSo, in this episode, we're hitting two main points: The 'Who Not How' approach of concentrating on the most valuable assets, your knowledge and time, and for those who only have resources for the DIY approach, we'll go through some tips for making it as painless as possible.
\n\nThere is something for everyone here and some encouragement that there are quicker ways of getting your idea out there.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/097
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we have another of my favorite types of podcasts as we get to with one of our authors, Mike Mack.
\n\nYou might recognize Mike's name because he's both written a book and has been a guest on the podcast before. So today he's back having just published a second book with us, Relationships for Keeps, and if you follow us on Facebook, you might have seen a video I shot as the book launched in towards the end of last year.
\n\nThis is a really great episode. Mike has some fantastic insights into not only the creation process, but how he's using the book and, not surprisingly, how it's amplifying the relationships he has.
\n\nIf you listened to the previous podcast with Mike, you'll remember relationships are key to how he builds his business and the framework or lens through which he views things. It comes across both in the tone and friendliness of the way he speaks, and in the steps, he takes to nurture those relationships and really add value at every stage.
\n\nIt's not only the subject of his book, but that's really what all of our books are about.
\n\nGiving value to start a relationship and then build a journey, a follow-up that educates and motivates people towards the next step.
\n\nThere is a lot to take away in this episode.
\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/096
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Dean about two great subjects. The opportunity to syndicate your book and the art of conversational conversions.
\n\nIf you run a coaching group, generate leads for people, run a sales team, or anything where your success depends on other people's sales, then the opportunity to create a book that other people can use is a huge advantage.
\n\nWe know that for most people, the idea of creating a book is beyond what they are willing to do. Even with a simple process like ours, it's just not something they think about. Know how straightforward a book can be to create, you can leverage that 'willingness gap' by essentially doing it for them, and benefitting from the conversations they're able to start.
\n\nWe finished by talking more about those conversations and the opportunities for conversational conversions.
\n\nIf you're looking to convert someone into a customer, there are really only two times; now or not now…
\n\nOnce someone asks for a copy of your book, it's your ability to create a conversational conversion that will take someone to that next step.
\n\nAnother great episode.
\n\nThere is a lot to take away in this episode.
\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/095
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show I'm talking with Betsy, and we dive into what turned out to be a pretty interesting episode, using a book to build your team and their success.
\n\nFirst, we looked at building your team itself using a book. We used real estate as an example. It's an industry where staff turnover can be relatively high. Agents have the freedom to move to any brokerage, so how can you use a book to attract the best agents, and set the tone, and communicate the values of your organization once people join.
\n\nWe then looked at using a kind of syndication model, internally rather than externally, to help your team engage more clients.
\n\nAs the business owner, you're in a great position to write the most effective lead generating book. You have the knowledge, experience, and authority to get it done. You also have the opportunity to amplify its reach by putting the team member's name on the front rather than yours.
\n\nAt the end of the day, you're interested in the business being as successful as possible. If that goal is helped by the team using your book, with their name, to engage clients and start a conversation, that's a win.
\n\nSo, lots more examples in this episode.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/094
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm very excited because we have another author interview to share with you. I just finished talking with Jason and Denise Henderson, dentists with practices in Palo Alto and Tahoe.
\n\nTheir patients are slightly different. There's a different demographic, and they specialize in different procedures, but the book they created addresses one of the common problems across all patients.
\n\nWe often talk about this question of 'What's the common question in the minds of your potential customer?', something you can help with, or help them overcome. Well, this is what Denise and Jason have done. Their book helps people start to overcome any anxiety they may be feeling, by talking about their practice, their approach, and helps set the scene for how their practices operate and what people can expect.
\n\nYour book won't 'cure' someone, but it can put people's minds at rest, and it lets them peek behind the curtains a little bit, so there are no surprises, and it starts to build a level of comfort, enough for people to take the first step.
\n\nI talked with Jason first and then Denise, and it's great to hear both their perspectives on what the book provides, how it's being received, and their take on the responses they've already got.
\n\nYou can find out more about the practices at KingsBeachDental.com and DHendersonDDS.com
\n\nI'm looking forward to you hearing this one.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/093
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Happy New Year, and welcome to another episode of the Book More Show.
\n\nWe're starting 2020 by diving a little deeper into some of the basics steps everyone should be doing to promote their book, and though some of these may sound familiar, it's surprising how easy they are to overlook.
\n\nThe New Year is a time to reflect, and sometimes be surprised by how fast the last 12 months have gone, and this episode, in part, was sparked by a conversation Betsey had yesterday when someone who worked with us last year asked for tips to 'do more' with their book, but who had yet to put some of these simple steps in place.
\n\nSo often we're looking for a secret, but the great news is, the simple things can get you a lot of the way.
\n\nWe wrapped up by talking about a few examples of when to use additional material in your book; something that can often trip people up, and a timely reminder that New Year is a great time to seek out the people who will be talking about, and interested in, the thing your book will help them with.
\n\nSo, a great show to start the year. I know we're excited about the year ahead and working with you to get more books created, and more conversation started.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/092
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I caught up with Dean to do a kind of year in review of 2019.
\n\nWe're recording in the break between Christmas & New Year, so it was a great opportunity to pick his brain, and look at the trends that have changed, the things were still pretty bullish on, and the experiences we've had, coaching and helping people build their business using a book over the last 12 months.
\n\nThere are some really interesting insights here, particularly the psychology of how people perceive requesting a book versus taking another action, and knowing this, what we can do to make that step as beneficial as possible.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/091
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we’re closing in on the end of the year, so I grabbed some time with Betsey to talk about one of the Book Blueprint Scorecard mindsets - Beneficial Constraints.
\n\nThe end of the year is always a great time to plan for the year ahead, but also to look back & realize how fast the last 12 months have gone!
\n\nThis idea of Beneficial Constraints looks to help us understand that sometimes less allows us to achieve more, and what are the real and artificial constraints we can use to our benefit, to get a book out there, building our business.
\n\nIf you want to read along with us and think about your score, then head over to BookBlueprintScore.com and complete your own scorecard.
\n\nThere is a lot to get from this episode, especially at this time of year as we’re looking down the barrel of 2020, and all it’s possibilities.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/090
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show I'm very excited because I had a chance to catch up with Justin Breen, the owner of PR company BrEpic in Chicago.
\n\nJustin has a fascinating background as before opening his PR company; he was a journalist for many years. It's this experience that's valuable here because he's very dialed into what hooks people and captures their attention, especially the media.
\n\nA book is a great way to do this because it's still seen as 'something different', a way of sharing an idea, but also to put that idea in an interesting context.
\n\nJustin shares some great insights into ways to make your book do more, but the main takeaway is the idea that although the information you're sharing with potential customers is fantastic for starting a journey, people are often more engaged when there is a hook.
\n\nThis can be a personal story or background that creates an emotional connection, and it's especially true when you're trying to get your story shared because the hook is going to give people a reason to talk about you, and an opportunity for you to share your message and encourage people to take the conversation further.
\n\n\n\nMore about Justin:
\nBrEpic
\n52 Dates in 52 Weeks
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/089
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Betsey about all the great initials… BCC's and CTA's, as we dive into your back cover copy and call to actions.
\n\nWe've talked about some of these in the past, but it ties in nicely with the show over the last couple of weeks when we looked at your tables of contents and then last week when I spoke with Dean last week about your email followup.
\n\nYour back cover copy, and the step you want someone to take next is very specific to the context of how you use your book, so today we have two great examples to go deep into.
\n\nIf you've ever questioned what the best next steps are, or how to guide and orchestrate people's thinking into an action, rather than just reading for the sake of reading, then this is going to be a great show for you.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/088
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we have a great episode as Dean and I talk about 'what to do now, your book is complete'.
\n\nIt's a question we often get because we talk a lot about your book being the first step in the process. In reality, a lot of the engagement you're going to have with people comes from the longterm relationship you'll build.
\n\nNot everyone is ready to take action straight away. Staying in touch with people is key to being front of mind, and there, ready to help whenever they are ready to take that next step.
\n\nSome great insights from Dean into your email followup, both immediately when someone opts in, and then over the following days. We're always looking to ask the right questions to engage and elicit a response that identifies your five-star prospects — the people who are most likely to want to do business with you.
\n\nDon't forget to grab a copy of Email Mastery from EmailMastery.com to dive deeper.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/087
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we're talking with John Akhoian, the owner of Rooter Hero, a plumbing company based out of California and Arizona.
\n\nJohn has written three books with us, and what's really interesting is the passion he brings to the subject. Not only for the passion for his own company, but a passion for the industry as a whole, and what other plumbers and tradespeople can do to really amplify their business and set up a company that's going to provide for them and their family.
\n\nYou can really see the development of this idea in the three books he wrote.
\n\nStarting with a book to identify potential new team members, a way to staff their organization, John introduces the subject of a successful career in plumbing to people who may not have even thought of that as a career path. His second book talks about his progress toward creating 99 millionaires from the plumbing business, and his latest, Values First, reinforces his company philosophy in how they treat both members of the team and customers.
\n\nThis is a great, wide-ranging episode that will spark a lot of great ideas on how you can engage clients and your team with a book.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/086
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show I'm talking with Betsey about something we haven't covered on the show for some time. Your content.
\n\nNot so much the details of what to include, but more its structure and how even this can be a motivator for people as you compel them to take the next step.
\n\nWe know you know your stuff and have some great ideas to get started. We know you have an easy way for people to take the next step and begin to work with you. But, we also know that actual read rates are pretty low.
\n\nTaking time to think about your Table of Content as something that reinforces people's belief they're in the right place, and you're the one to help them, encourages you to look at this page as the stepping stones from the question in the title, to the answer in the next step.
\n\nImagine people only came in because of the title; they saw the 1,2,3,4,5… steps of the Table of Content, would that compel them to jump to the call to action, or would it confuse them, and hold them back from taking the next step.
\n\nThe great thing about the BookBlueprintScore.com is that it helps amplify each of the parts of your book, and it's little considerations like this that can add up.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/085
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we have a little bit of a different episode because you're not going to hear from me, you're going to hear from Dean Jackson and Jonathon Schultheiss.
\n\nNow you might remember Jonathon from a show we did a few weeks ago talking about his new book 'Focused' and the way he's getting a lot of media attention, really orchestrating some TV appearances. Well, earlier in the year, Dean and Jonathon had a conversation over on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast talking about the bigger picture of his 'Before Unit' and some of the things Jonathon's doing outside of just of his book.
\n\nThe conversation focused on picking the target market he's going for, deciding on the assets, the things that people are going to be most interested in receiving to start the conversation, and then how his book and the other pieces fit together into the overall funnels and campaigns.
\n\nIt's a really great episode. You're going to get a lot from this, and there are a lot of transferable ideas that you can take away.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/084
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we've got a great episode because I had the opportunity to talk with Bill Bloom.
\n\nBill's a financial advisor from Chicago, and if you've been listening for any time to the show, you've probably heard me talk about Bill because he's created some great example of books that really resonate. He's an example always springs to mind.
\n\nWe've known Bill for a long time. He wrote his first book with us 'The Yachters Guide to Early Retirement' a couple of years ago. It's a book that dials in on a niche that he's engaged with, and it really opened some doors to speaking engagements which continue to this day.
\n\nHis second book is called 'Retire As You Desire' and what a name that it is! It really resonates with people. It rolls off the tongue, there's something humorous about it, it sticks in your mind, but also, more importantly, it delivers on a promise. It does what it says on the tin. It gives the indication of an outcome, of a better solution, and it's the perfect way of getting people to raise their hand.
\n\nOnce they've raised their hand, his funnel then leads them into a meeting opportunity because he regularly now runs Retire As You Desire workshops in his local area.
\n\nI'm very excited to be able to share with you. There are a lot of take away's and ideas for you here.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/083
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show I'm talking with Betsy Vaughn, and we're going to dive a little deeper into a topic we touched on last time.
\n\nWe often talk about your book as the greatest lead generation tools you have. It really is the best way to get invisible prospects to raise their hand, but the secret is how do you engaging and interacting with those people over the long term.
\n\nIt's over the next number of days, weeks, months, years, that you have the opportunity to speak with them, educating and motivating them, to do business with you and by showing how you can best help.
\n\nObviously your immediate opt in sequence is important. Following up with people straight away so those who are the most engaged, the most ready to go, can take action, but then it's how you engage with all of the rest of the people over the longer term. One of the best ways to do that is a podcast.
\n\nWe introduced this idea in the last episode, and we're going to dive deeper this time giving you some more actionable ideas, and it's going to be something we talk about increasingly over the coming weeks and years as it gets more attention out in the world and people realize just how many options you have to do things with that content once you've created it.
\n\nAs we mention in the show, if you're interested in us helping you get your podcast set up and produced each week, just send an email to hello@90minutebooks.com, and we'll get you all the details.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/82
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we’re talking about your Flagship Broadcast… the way you keep in touch with people after they show up on your radar.
\n\nThe reality is, more people will be ready to engage with you over the long term, than the short term. Your book is the perfect tool to encourage interested people to raise their hand, but most of your opportunity to work with these people lies in the ‘long-tail’, so today we’re talking about why it’s important to be front of mind, and the simple ways you can create that ‘Flagship Broadcast’ to keep in touch.
\n\nWith so many demands on your time, it’s important to be efficient with your effort, and there are some great ideas here to stay in front of people interested in the thing you do.
\n\nWe also mentioned ‘Dial Talk Done’, our podcast service designed to be your flagship broadcast tool. If you've heard us talking about it before & are interested in being part of the first group, just shoot an email to support@90minutebooks.com and we’ll get you all the details.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/081
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we’re talking about books to identify invisible leads and books that motivate people to take the next step.
\n\nIf you’ve followed us for any time, you’ve heard us refer to Dean’s 8-Profit Activators and the before unit, looking at how you attract and engage with future customers. We’ve talked about Profit Activator 1: selecting a single target market in the past, well today we’re going a little deeper into Profit Activators 2 & 3, compelling your best prospects to raise their hand, and educating and motivating them to take the next step.
\n\nHow you plan to use your book will influence your title, content, and next steps, and understanding the difference between Profit Activator 2 & 3 will help narrow your scope. It will guide your thoughts on the content and help craft a clearer call to action. All of which means you’re more likely to get your book created and out there working for you.
\n\nEvery book is a combination of the 2, but understanding that identifying leads and motivating people to take the next step are two distinct mindsets (both for you and your potential customer) is one of the most important lead generation tips we can share.
\n\nAs always, getting any book out there is better than no book, so don't let this distinction be an excuse to slow down. Instead, think about whether the main ‘job of work’ of your book is to identify people who don't yet know you, or to motivate those who do, to take the next step… Then get on with getting on.
\n\nCheck out these links for the 5 Book Title formulas and 8-Profit Activators books we talk about.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/080
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we’re talking about the best way to use your presentation or webinar in your book.
\n\nIt’s a question we get asked a lot… ‘I have a presentation recorded, can I use that to create my book’, and while getting it transcribed and edited may seem like a simple solution, there are many problems that come up when you try to jam your words from stage into the pages of your book you hope will be the start of a great customer conversation.
\n\nThe good news is, there are a number of way you can use presentations or webinars you’ve already created to their maximum effect, and today we’re going to run through both the downside of straight reuse and the benefits and advantages you have by building on the work you’ve already done, in the right way.
\n\nThe 90-Minute Book model of taking 30 minutes to outline your content, and 60 minutes to record something targeted is the fastest way to create a book that’s absolutely fit for purpose. Having helped create over 500 titles we’ve seen what works well, and what slows the process to a crawl.
\n\nWhether or not you’re working with us directly, today’s show will help you get your book out there quickly, and amplify your message with the presentation you don’t want to waste.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/079
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we have a really great call for you. We’re talking with Jonathon Schultheiss who’s just finished his second book, Focused - The Financial Freedom Formula, and I can’t wait for you to hear about some of the amazing opportunities he’s created to get media attention.
\n\nHaving already created a book, hyper-targeted at the group of people he really wants to work with, he created Focused to have a way to identify a broader group of people because he knows he can ‘sift and sort’ them later.
\n\nIn just the last few weeks since completing his book, Jonathon has appeared on TV, spoken at NASDAQ and had his book featured on the Jumbotron in Time Square.
\n\nHaving seen what he’s doing, I want to get him on the show to share his experience and give us some tips to do the same.
\n\nWe talk a lot about directly engaging potential customers, and that is still the number one purpose of your book. But, just as with last weeks ‘long tail’ discussion, now you have your book created, there are some unique ways to make it work even harder, and get you access to potential customers that you may struggle to reach.
\n\nJonathon has great energy, he’s a great cheerleader for the help he can provide, and he has some great tips for anyone looking to get more publicity and social proof.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/078
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we’re talking about the long tail of promotion opportunities you have once your book is complete.
\n\nWhen you think about writing a book, there are probably a few campaigns that come to mind immediately. Ways you already know you want to use your book. It might be offering it as a download on your website, a Facebook campaign, In person at an event. These ideas are often the best use of your time and help you capture the most leads, but after that, there is still much more you can do…
\n\nThe great news is now you have your book created, there are hundreds of opportunities to use it to engage with people. These are the smaller, more specific times you find yourself with the chance to capture people’s details, if only you had a reason for them to share their information.
\n\nBy taking a little time to orchestrate these opportunities, you can create multiple ways to start a conversation, and even more chances to uncover ‘oil wells’. Groups of people you might have previously passed over because you didn’t have a compelling way for them to raise their hand.
\n\nYour first push should definitely be in the big ideas, but there are huge opportunities hiding in the long tail.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/077
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we're talking about some different types of books than usual.
\n\nThis morning I grabbed a copy of a book we recently completed and was surprised to be reading about their company culture rather than the strategy I was expecting.
\n\nI so often find myself in a lead generation conversation, it's easy to forget that about 30% of the books we help create fall into this ‘other’ category, so today we're going deeper into some of these other book types.
\n\nWhether your book is for lead generation or about your company culture, your personal legacy, or stories from your customers, personal messages and real accounts are great at breaking through & resonating with people.
\n\nThe aim of everything we encourage you to do is to increase the amount people know, like and trust you, and this applies just as much to staff, family or investors as it does to potential customers.
\n\nThis is a great call if you have those relationships, even if it's only with a handful of people, because sharing your story in the pages a book moves a conversation in a way that's difficult to replicate in any other form.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/076
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we're looking at the '7 Key Factors in Creating Compelling Ads' and how you can use that framework to help create or promote your book.
\n\nWhenever you come across a framework, it's a great opportunity to use it through the lens you want. This works for any framework out there, even if it's not directly applicable to your subject. By altering the words slight, or changing the context to better match yours, using a different framework can be a great way to prompt yourself to answer questions you may not have previously thought of.
\n\nThis particular one comes from the Breakthrough Blueprint Online course (BreakthroughDNA.com) and is part of Profit Activator 2) Compelling Prospects to Call You.
\n\nYou'll recognize a few of the step as they are some of the contributing thoughts to the Book Blueprint Scorecard, but this is a great illustration of the point. Asking questions in a different way helps expand the conversation, and that's where opportunity lies.
\n\nIf you've had a book idea in your head for while, this is a great show to prompt you to get it out and on to paper.
\n\nDon't forget to check out the Breakthrough Blueprint slide below.
\n\nLinks:
\nBreakthroughDNA.com
LINKS
\nBreakthroughDNA.com
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/075
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, Betsey joins me to talk about seasonal books.
\n\nThis is a great topic, because it has two big opportunities for you 1) the seasonality is a reason to get in front of potential customers, 2) it's a way of subtly conveying a sense of immediacy.
\n\nIf you own a heating company, writing the a guide to Getting Your Home Ready for Winter is a great reason to share information in the fall. If you're a Financial Planner, a 2019 Tax Preparation Guide is a great reason to connect in the spring. The information is valid all year, but the seasonal spike in interest gives you a chance to have those potential clients raise their hand.
\n\nAlternatively, a florist creating the 2019 Outdoor Wedding Venue Guide is a great way to reach people planning to get married sometime over the coming years. lt may have very similar information to the 2018 guide, but it's just as valuable, and the date gives it a sense of immediacy. Similarly the 2019 Florida Medicare Guide may have some updated information from the previous year, but that title is more compelling and relevant than simply the Florida Medical Guide which is kept up to date.
\n\nThere are many examples like this, where thinking about what is urgent in the minds of potential customers, even though you know the information is 'evergreen', is another amplification point to make those invisible leads, visible.
\n\nLinks:
\nBreakthroughDNA.com
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/074
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we're talking with Shane Melanson from Alberta Canada. Shane helps people invest in commercial real estate across the US and Canada, and his book, 'Club Syndication' helps people find the right deals and raise capital.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about how he dialed in the target market for his book, and now it's complete, we focused on some of the best ways he can get in front of the people he can best help.
\n\nShane has a great opportunity to work with a 'complementary, non competing' group of investors, and the book is proving to be the perfect door opener to people and conversations that were previously difficult to access.
\n\nWe dive deep into looking at various ways he can leverage his book that brings value to everyone and puts him in front of the right people at the right time.
\n\nThis is a great example of why your book is a 'charge neutral' way of starting a conversation with people who get pitched all the time, and why, when you start by give something of value (to potential clients or peers), it sets an expectation of value creation, rather than starting by asking for something.
\n\nI really enjoyed catching up with Shane & it's exciting to hear how he's getting more people to raise their hand and there are lots of examples you can use to promote your business.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/073
\nMore about Shane:ShaneMelanson.com
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
It's 2019 & we're back!
\n\nToday on the Book More Show I'm talking with Betsey about 3 or 4 of the fastest, zero cost ways to get your book out there using things you're already doing like email, social profiles, and the content you already create.
\n\nThere's definitely a place for specific campaigns, but being able to use your book as a next step for people in any situation is a great way to add small rocks, to the big rocks of your campaigns.
\n\nIt's these little opportunities that can add up to big results over time, and as we're talking about making small changes to existing things, it's definitely something everyone can and should do.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/072
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking to Randy Davis from up near Chicago IL. Over the years, Randy has built and sold 18 companies, and the book he just completed with us, The Bootstrap Billionaire, takes that experience and the insights gain from conversations with his peers, to guide you toward creating a business that scales, and ultimately is a viable business that attracts multiple offers.
\n\nIt was great to get some of Randy's time today. Not only for his knowledge, but also to listen to his experience of creating his book... What lead him to the decision, the process, and how he plans to use it.
\n\nEveryone's background and intentions are different, so it's great to hear what held someone else back, and what's now propelling them forward.
\n\nThere's some great ideas here to help you get started.
\n\nLINKS
\nMore about Randy: RandyDavis.io
\nLisa Sasevich episode: EP005
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/071
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we're talking about all the ways to take your hard work (writing your book) and create other 'things', other assets you can use to remix your campaigns and funnels.
\n\nFrom the individual ideas that make up the content of your book, you have the opportunity to create many, many short, individual pieces of content to amplify your message, and educate and motivate people toward taking the first step with you.
\n\nOnce these are created, you'll have an army of assets, all waiting to be remixed into various funnel. From supporting material, to new, top of the funnel 'cookies'.
\n\nThe trick to getting this done is to split the task in two. First identify the points you want to amplify, and second, have a list you can refer back to, of all the different ways you can create variations of that content.
\n\nIt's this list that's the secret. You already know the information... This list is the way to shortcut you brain into getting it out there.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/070
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the Book More Show we've got a great interview with Regan Archibald, a healthcare professional from Utah.
\n\nRegan has a great story. Having developed a number of clinics in Utah, he went on to found Go Wellness, a training and mentorship program for Acupuncturists, Chiropractors and Doctors in the healthcare field, and you'll hear us talk about the progression in how he uses his books (he's now on his 4th), to identify and engage both patients and clients.
\n\nI love talking to the people we work with, to hear about the real life examples of how they are using books to attract more customers and grow their businesses.
\n\nIf you haven't yet started your book yet, the information Regan shares will be a great reminder to get started because there are so many opportunities out there, and you can never tell where it will lead.
\n\nLINKS
\nLearn more about Regan: GoWellness.com
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/069
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
You spend a lot of time thinking about your book, but the most important thing is the bigger campaign, or funnel your book is a part of.
\n\nToday on the Book More Show, we're walking through the 3 campaigns we use, and the framework we've used with many clients to create the most effective funnels, with a book as the front end.
\n\nWhether you've written your book already, or are waiting to get started, I really want you to take this approach, and think about how you can:
\n\nIdentify people
\nStart a conversation with those people ready immediately
\nContinue to educate and motivate people over the long-term, until they are ready.
\n... and we'll be talking about number 3 more over the coming weeks.
There is a huge opportunity to stay in front of people, presenting 'Minimum Viable Commitment' offers until they are ready, and your book is the very best way to start the conversation and prime your pump.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/068
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
We talk a lot about using your book as part of a funnel, or campaign to engage future customers, and today we have a great example of that.
\n\nIn today's Book More Show we're talking with Jim Rollo an insurance broker from New York state. This is a great conversation and really Jim's book is the perfect example of starting a conversation with a group of people that you want to engage with, in a way that resonates with them. He's used all of the book blueprint mindsets that we've talked about before, starting the conversation in a way that educates people and gives them useful content, working with complimentary noncompeting businesses to add value to potential customers, leading readers to further steps that amplify the conversation further and ultimately lead people to a point that you can do business together.
\n\nThe call went fast & there is a lot for you to take from it, including how jim came to the point of writing the book, the process of writing, and then we spent a lot of time really focusing on how he's planning on using the book through those complimentary noncompeting relationships.
\n\nThis is really a great show if you've recently finished your book or if you're thinking about starting, and are wondering how you can use it.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/067
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
One of the most frequent questions we get asked is about book titles. So today on the Book More Show, we dive deep and revisit 5 of the most effective book title formulas.
\n\nIf you're on the More Cheese, Less Whiskers list, you'll have seen an email earlier this week introducing them. The aim, as always, is to have a title that makes your ideal customer, stop and say "I want that".
\n\nWhether you're introducing a new idea to your audience or giving them step by step instructions to get a better outcome, your title & the words you choose, are the strongest indicator to people that they are 'in the right place'.
\n\n5 Book Titles Formula
\nIn the show we talk about The 5 Book Title Formulas field report. It's linked here.
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/066
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
One of the biggest challenges you face when writing your book (after the content) is getting bogged down by the tools and 'mechanisms' needed to get it produced and ready to print.
\n\nThe simplest way is to have us do it for you ;) but if you want to go the DIY route, today's show is for you. We talk about some of the tools and tips needed to get it done.
\n\nWe cover the options to get your words on the page in the way you want, as well as the choices you have for cover design.
\n\nThe key theme in all of this... Keep It Simple!
\n\nRemember, if you're looking to generate business from your book, then your book is not the product, and ever additional unit of energy spent on this, is not being spent elsewhere.
\n\nFocus on the 'Minimum Effective Dose' and get something out there that helps people and starts a conversation.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/065
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Once your book is complete, you have 3 main ways to get it in the hands of people you want to engage. Print, Kindle and PDF.
\n\nIn today's show, we're diving into some of the up and downsides to these, and how the different ways you plan to use your book can change what you need to do to get the best out of it.
\n\nStarting with the end in mind is essential to creating something effective. Putting out a Kindle version is might be a great idea, but unless you have a way to encourage those people to identify themselves, it could be a lot of wasted effort.
\n\nThere is no 'one size fits all' answer to creating your book across different channels, but today we talk about some great ideas & points to consider to make sure you get the best bang for your book.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/064
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
There are a few traps that can catch you out, even after you've created the content for your book. The biggest one - endless editing.
\n\nAfter years of experience, we know the biggest challenge people face is letting go and getting their book out their, in front of people. The temptation to edit, and tweak, and edit some more can be overwhelming. Months can pass and you still don't have anything to share.
\n\nThe good news is, you don't need to do that! If your book is being used identify new customers, if you're giving it away as a way to start a conversation, then 90% and out, is much better than waiting to get to 100% (which, by the way is an illusion), and sat on the shelf.
\n\nRemember, your book is not the product, and in today's show we talk about some of the common editing traps people fall into, and how to recognize them.
\n\nOne of the issues is keeping your 'beneficial constraints' in mind, so we wrap up by talking about the right time to create a second book.
\n\nThis is a great show to keep you moving toward the end of the process.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/063
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Deciding what to include in your book can be mean more than just the words.
\n\nAll too often we talk to people bogged down trying to include images, charts, checklists, and screenshots in their book.
\n\nAs with everything, there is a right way and a wrong way to approach this, so in today’s show we’re taking a little time to talk about the pros and cons of including images.
\n\nWe’ll look at the constraints you need to be aware of, some tips to better use the additional information you’re trying to include, and the best way to think about the context in which your book will be read.
\n\nThe aim, as always, is to help you get your best book out there as fast as possible, without getting caught up in all the image pitfalls.
\n\nAnd… we finish off the show with a quick look at the outlining tools we use to map out our content
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/062
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
We know your book is the best way to start a conversation. A way to identify invisible prospects from all the people out there who could be customers.
\n\nBut rather than offering it to everyone, there are ways to improve your results by offering it to those who are already predisposed to want to do business with you.
\n\nThe great news is, this approach can benefit everyone. Not just you, but the people you’re working with, and their customers.
\n\nToday on the Book More Show we’re talking about working with others to add more value to their customers, and at the same time, giving you the opportunity to spread your message, and introduce your solution to people who are already in the market for whatever it is you offer.
\n\nWorking with complimentary, non-competing businesses is one of the best ways to identify that group of customers, one step removed from your current sphere of influence.
\n\nBy taking a couple of extra steps to orchestrate that referral process, you can ensure the best chance of a new, relevant, potential customer hearing about you in a way that starts the conversation in a great way.
\n\nWe also talked about ways to work with others to create your book in the first place.
\n\nThis is a great show, especially if you operate in a geographical area where you have connections, or have built relationships online already.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/061
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
We've talked recently about the different ways you can identify new customers once your book is finish, and one common theme across these approaches is email.
\n\nNo matter how you get in front of people, at some point it probably involves sending them a message.
\n\nIn today’s show we look at 2 ways you can make the most of the messages you send; your Super Signature, and following up with a SPEAR email to move the conversation forward.
\n\nNo matter what business you're in, the aim of your book is to start a conversation with a potential customer, and your emails are the best way to develop the relationship while giving people the opportunity to move to the next stage. To take that minimum viable commitment step toward doing business with you.
\n\nThere are some great ideas in this show, things you can implement today, and you can grab a copy of the Email Mastery book from EmailMastery.com to up your email game even further.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/060
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
The biggest benefit of having your book, is... having your book!
\n\nIt may sound obvious, but it's easy to forget about all the different ways you can use it when you're caught up in creating it.
\n\nOnce it's finished, it becomes the flagship asset, the 'thing' you can offer, reference, and refer people to, in many different campaigns.
\n\nThat's what we're talking about in today’s show as we take an hour to talk with Focus James.
\n\nFocus has just finished her book ‘How to Have a Healthy Love Affair' and with a speaking event coming up in the next few weeks, we look at all the ways she can use her new book to amplify her message, compel the audience to take the next step, and get into a conversation with all the people who are interested, but not quite ready today.
\n\nFocus has a model, a framework to help people, a passion to share her knowledge, and now has her book, her manifesto to help spread the word and identify all the invisible prospects... people she can help and would love to work with her.
\n\nThis is a great show, and another opportunity to create ideas for a real-world example.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/059
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
There are many different ways to use your book to engage people, and today we're looking at a 'grab bag' of possibilities.
\n\nYour comfort with creating new 'things', the skills you have, and the audience you already with, will all influence how you choose to use your book, but by looking at many options today, we'll get to cover something for everyone. Something that when you hear us talk about it, you'll immediately see how you can use the idea to better engage potential customers.
\n\nCreating your book give you the flagship asset... the thing that encourages people to raise their hand, but to support that, you have the opportunity to create many smaller pieces that move the conversations forward.
\n\nThe good news is, you've done all the hard work already. Now it's a case of amplifying your message in the simplest way possible.
\nBook Blueprint Scorecard Episodes
There are some great, practical steps here that everyone should take.
\n\nDon't forget, you can see how your book idea stacks up against the Book Blueprint by going to BookBlueprintScore.com and, if you want to be a guest on the show to plan your successful book, just head over to 90MinuteBooks.com/guest
\n\nLastly, here is a link to the other Book Blueprint Scorecard Episodes and to theEmail Mastery book we mentioned.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/058
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
In today's episode, we're looking further at Book Blueprint Score Mindset 8, Beyond Your Book... This time, specifically the email sequence you should have, once someone requests a copy of your book.
\n\nWe've often talked about one of the biggest benefits of using a book to identify invisible leads is the fact that not everyone is ready to start today. By identifying people early in their journey, you have the opportunity to start a conversation and educate and motivate people to do business with you, when they are ready.
\n\n... and the way you do this is by email.
\n\nToday we're looking at the 5 emails you should set up in your initial autoresponder and the 'flagship broadcast', you should then drop people into.
\nThere are some great, practical steps here that everyone should take.
There are some great, practical steps here that everyone should take.
\n\nDon't forget, you can see how your book idea stacks up against the Book Blueprint by going to BookBlueprintScore.com and, if you want to be a guest on the show to plan your successful book, just head over to 90MinuteBooks.com/guest
\n\nLastly, here is a link to the other Book Blueprint Scorecard Episodes and to theEmail Mastery book we mentioned.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/057
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
The important things really start to happen once you’ve completed your book.
\n\nThat the opportunity to start sharing what you’re written and identifying those invisible prospects.
\n\nIn last week’s show we looked at the free or inexpensive ways you can use your book with the people who already know you, and today we take that a step further, looking at the things you can do locally to share your book with the people most likely to be clients.
\n\nThe best way to think through these ideas is always with a real example, so today we’re talking with Joe Yocavitch from New Jersey.
\n\nJoe’s a great guy. He persevered through some compliance headwinds to recently complete his book Getting Down The Mountain. A guide to preserving your retirement by reducing one of the biggest threats. Taxation.
\n\nWe had a great call looking at not only the process of creating his book, and some of the challenges, but also, not it’s ready, what are some of the ways he can get out there and make the most of these first few weeks after release.
\n\nI’m excited for you to hear (and steal) the ideas we had
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/056
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
The most exciting part of creating your book isn’t the layout, or the amazing cover, or even really your great content… The exciting part is getting your book out there, starting conversations once it’s complete.
\n\nToday on the Book More Show we’re looking at the last of the Book Blueprint Mindsets – what to do ‘Beyond Your Book’.
\n\nThere are so many opportunities and ways you could use it, but we start by looking at the simple, inexpensive, and friction-free ways of using your book to orchestrate referrals and revive old leads.
\n\nWe also talk about how easy it is to over value short term results, and under value the long term. So we cover a few simple ways you can stay front of mind with people, and be there ‘when they are ready’ to take the next step.
\n\nThere are some great, practical steps here that everyone should take.
\n\nDon't forget, you can see how your book idea stacks up against the Book Blueprint by going to BookBlueprintScore.com and, if you want to be a guest on the show to plan your successful book, just head over to 90MinuteBooks.com/guest
\n\nLastly, here is a link to the other Book Blueprint Scorecard Episodes and to theEmail Mastery book we mentioned.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/055
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
In the last few shows we've looked at all the elements of the Book Blueprint Scorecard you need to create the best book for your business or organization.
\n\nToday, we looking at mindset 7, and what not to do. The beneficial constraints you can put in place to increase your chance of completing a book.
\n\nStarting to write with the mindset of 'It will be done when it's done' is a sure fire way to make sure you're still writing (or avoiding it) this time next year. It's the time and scope constraints you put on the project that are key to getting it done.
\n\nAs a special bonus, we also talk about why International Speak Like a Pirate day might be the key to getting your book out there, and I share the world's best Pirate joke!
\n\nSo something for everyone this week ;)
\n\nThere are some great, practical steps here that everyone should take.
\n\nDon't forget, you can see how your book idea stacks up against the Book Blueprint by going to BookBlueprintScore.com and, if you want to be a guest on the show to plan your successful book, just head over to 90MinuteBooks.com/guest
\n\nLastly, here is a link to the other Book Blueprint Scorecard Episodes and to theEmail Mastery book we mentioned.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/054
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today we're diving in to two more of the Book Blueprint mindsets.
\n\nA Purposeful Outline and Value Driven Content.
\n\nThis is a bit of a deep dive, but amplifies some of the topics from the last few shows. It will be a huge help if you're at the stage where you have your audience dialed in, you know where you want them to go next, and you're ready to start planning how to get them there (the content).
\n\nAs with all the Book Blueprint mindsets, you'll find you are more advanced in some than others, but the main thing we're trying to achieve here, is helping you make the most of each element that makes up your book.
\n\nThere are some great, practical steps here that everyone should take.
\n\nDon't forget, you can see how your book idea stacks up against the Book Blueprint by going to BookBlueprintScore.com and, if you want to be a guest on the show to plan your successful book, just head over to 90MinuteBooks.com/guest
\n\nLastly, here is a link to the other Book Blueprint Scorecard Episodes and to theEmail Mastery book we mentioned.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/053
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Your book is the best tool for identifying invisible leads, but the secret is to have a plan to nurture those leads over the weeks and months after they make themselves known.
\n\nThe aim; to start a conversation with people most likely to be your customer.
\n\nSo today on the show, Betsey and I talk about some great conversations we're having with people looking to syndicate their books, ways for any business to think about writing a book to start a conversation, and how, once people have joined your 'sphere of influence', you can continue the conversation with people, continually present them with the offer of the next step.
\n\nThere are some great, practical steps here that everyone should take.
\n\nDon't forget, you can see how your book idea stacks up against the Book Blueprint by going to BookBlueprintScore.com and, if you want to be a guest on the show to plan your successful book, just head over to 90MinuteBooks.com/guest
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/052
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today we have a change from the regular programing as we just released the latest episode of the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast, and it's one you need to hear!
\n\nDean is talking with Ben Byrne, owner of a marketing company in Canada, who's looking to break into marketing for Financial Advisers.
\n\nThis is a great show I wanted to share because it's a real example of the thought process behind using a book to generate leads, for referrals and to syndicate and create a solution for your customers.
\n\nThe show should resonate as it hits home the benefits of separating identifying potential leads from converting them.
\n\nThere are lots of great ideas here for you today.
\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/051
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today on the show we're looking at mindset 4 of the Book Blueprint Scorecard: A Minimum Viable Commitment, call to action.
\n\nThe job of the back cover of a 'traditional' book is to sell the book... The job of your back cover is to deliver a compelling call to action in a way that allow new people to identify themselves and make it possible for you to know who your 'hotter' prospects are.
\n\nWe dive into this today and look at the offers you can make to keep the conversation moving.
\n\nYou can find out your Book Blueprint Score at BookBlueprintScore.com
\n\nThere are lots of great ideas here for you today.
\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/050
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Two parts to today's show. We stared off talking about a book project we recently completed to generate leads of realtors and closed looking at the Book Blueprint Score mindset 3: Choosing an amplifying sub-heading.
\n\n600 leads
\nPeople sometimes get hung-up on the content part of their book and what to write about. We covered 5 of the most effective types of books in 5 book titles formula field report but today we focused on how straight forward it can be to create something the resonates and get's people to raise their hand.
Once written, it can then be a challenge to know how to get your book out there, so in this example we run through the Facebook campaign we used to generate almost 600 leads in about 2 weeks.
\n\nThen, regardless of the traffic source, or the content, we finish by mentioning the Short, Personal, Expecting A Reply (spear) email we send to start the conversation with people.
\nThe examples of these are all below.
Book Blueprint Score, mindset 3: An amplifying sub-heading
\nWe continued our discussion of the 8 Book Blueprint Scores by looking at number 3 today. Some people fall into the trap of 'keyword stuffing' their subheading thinking that more words might attract more people.
If you have your audience dialed in and you know who you are trying to reach, your subheading is the place to amplify the benefits of your book, and use those power words to compel then to think 'I want that'.
\n\nYou can find out your Book Blueprint Score at BookBlueprintScore.com
\n\nThere are lots of great ideas here for you today.
\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/049
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
If you've been in a business or industry for any length of time, the knowledge you have can help others save time, money and in some cases pain and discomfort.
\n\nWhether that's sharing basic steps, pointing out common mistakes, correcting industry wide misconceptions, or sharing your deep understanding of your industry, the information you have is one of the very best ways to start a conversation with someone who's a likely customer.
\n\nToday, we had a great conversation with Victor Beyer. Victor owns a Tattoo Removal school as well as studios and wrote the book Rethink the Ink to target the two groups of people most in need of hearing the truth and misconceptions around tattoo removal. People looking to have a tattoo removed, and those looking to become removal practitioners.
\n\nVictor's deep understanding comes out in both the show, and in the pages of his book and it's this knowledge he's passionate to share, that will help readers evidence to themselves that he's the 'go to' guy for both training and removal.
\n\nWe had a great conversation about the steps that lead him to creating the book, the process and the benefits he's seeing.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/048
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today we're continuing with the Book Blueprint Scorecard journey and looking at Mindset 2: A Title That Resonates.
\n\nIf the purpose of your book is to compel someone to say "I want that book. That sounds like something I want." then the title is the key thing that triggers that response. Picking a title that resonates, both gets someone to raise the hand and communicates the promise of the solution.
\n\nIncorporating 'pre-suasion' techniques like this can make a big difference.
\n\nIn addition to this episode, we also recently recorded a book title Q&A call (linked below) that goes deeper into some real life examples.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/047
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today we're following on from the scorecard introduction to talk specifically about the Book Blueprint Scorecard.
\n\nI've been excited to share this for a few weeks because it's not only a great scorecard example, but more importantly, it's a great framework to help you assess where you are in creating a great tool for your business.
\n\nOver the coming weeks we'll address each mindset individually and walk you through the thinking behind each, the best way to assess your progress, and based on your score, the opportunities you have to mover the needle and get better results.
\n\nWe're starting today with Mindset 1: Your Specific Target Audience.
\n\nLINKS
\nbookblueprintscore.com/
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/046
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Following on from our conversations about lead converting books, this week we're talking all about scorecards.
\n\nBased on the Strategic Coach tool, a scorecard book is one of the best ways to educate and motivate potential clients to take the next step with you, as it allows them to evidence for themselves, the need for your product or service.
\n\nNo one likes to feel convinced, and the scorecard approach builds on their understand of what you do to compel them people to take action.
\n\nLINKS
\nprofitactivatorscore.com
\nuniqueability.com/scorecard
\nbookblueprintscore.com/
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/045
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This weeks show was a great chance to catch up with Betsey on a number of topics that have come up over the last few weeks from current authors and potential customers. All looking to engage more people with a book.
\n\nWe also circle back to the Small Business Expo from a couple of weeks ago and talk about who was there & the types of businesses creating or already using a a book to drive more business.
\n\nAs mentioned on the show, Dean's also doing a 'Book Outline' workshop & Q&A call this Thursday. We'll be going through everything you need to create the best outline for your book as well as having plenty of time to answer your questions. You can save your space here.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/044
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Engaging with potential customers is as much an art as it is a science. You can never really be sure what's going to resonate, or which elements of your message will gain traction. That why one of the best suggestions we can make is to follow a 'lean' approach. Get the first version of your message out there as soon as you can, and then make updates based on real world reactions.
\n\nThe traditional model of creating a book, investing tens of thousands of dollars and months of time comes at the great expense of needing to get it right first time. That is a huge, unnecessary pressure.
\n\nToday I had a great conversation with Mike Mack who took that advice and has just released an updated version of his book Remarkable Service.
\n\nMike is a great guy and truly passionate about helping businesses excel through service. For over 10 years, he's worked with companies large and small to identify and amplify skills within their organizations that distinguish them from the crowd, helping them become Remarkable. In a way, it's this skill of identifying what's working, that helped him take the initial version of his book and amplify the messages resonating with his ideal customers.
\n\nThis is a great show, especially for anyone holding back from getting started, concerned about getting it absolutely right on the first attempt. You could instead have your message out there before the end of the year starting conversations.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/043
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Sometimes things happen last minute. You may not have time to hatch the perfect 'evil scheme', but taking a few minutes to plan the experience can help make the most of it and identify opportunities for the future.
\n\nThis happened this week as we heard about The Small Business Expo in Tampa just a few days before the event. It was worth attending as a guest as we plan more speaking events in 2018, but with 2 days notice, we took some time in today's call to think about the best way to champion 90-Minute Books, and what we can do to plan for this type of opportunity in the future.
\n\nThe episode is a little raw, but you'll see the development of the ideas as we talk about who's attending, who's speaking, and what we can do to engage people in a 'Minimum Viable Commitment' way.
\n\nThis is a great opportunity for you think about how to engage at events like this (of course, a book is the very best way!) and you'll hear us talk about what holds people back and what we can do to help you create a book that's perfect for this situation.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/042
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Seeing other people’s passion to help is one of the best things working with the authors, business owners and community leaders we get to work with.
\n\nThis drive to share their knowledge and help educate others is one of the main reasons people find success with a 90-Minute Book. It creates a connection with readers and compels them to the next step.
\n\nToday's show is no exception as I'm talking with Yvonne Myette.
\n\nComing from a background in healthcare, Yvonne is a coach, passionate about helping those she resonates with, thrive and achieve more.
\n\nThis passion comes across in her book as she shares her journey, and in the podcast as she talks about getting to the point of creating her book and the message it's helping her share.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/041
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
We're following on from last week's show today and talking more about the three types of book you can use to generate more business:
\n\nLead generating
\nLead converting
\nBlueprint
\nUsing examples of existing books, we breakdown the different types and their purpose to give you more ideas to generate more business.
Looking at generating vs converting vs blueprint ideas really shows the difference in the purpose and intent of your book and how each is positioned in a slightly different way to move people forward.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/040
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today I'm joined by Dean to talk about the real reasons to write a book.
\n\nYou already know a book is a great idea for your business, but still, many people get stuck on why it will make a difference and this leads to delay and procrastination getting started.
\n\nWe talk about the 3 types of books that are the best at getting results:
\n\nA lead generation book
\nA lead conversion book
\nA blueprint book
\nDepending on who you're trying to engage (remember the acronym for LEADS, Let's Engage And Do Something), one of these 3 types will get results.
The great news is, they can all be created in just 90-minutes of your time.
\n\nThis is a great show to help reinforce your original thought 'I want to write a book', and help you take the first step.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/039
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Every so often we get a cluster of similar questions. That happened recently with people asking about adding a price to their book.
\n\nBetsey & I start this show by addressing some of the pro's and con's to this approach before going on to talk about some of the other ways to get your book in front of a local audience.
\n\nAdding a price can reinforce a perceived value, but there is the risk of setting unrealistic expectations with people buying your book that could lead to negative public comments. As we're talking about lead generating books, that negative sentiment could unnecessarily impact your 'actual' products or services.
\nAdding a price to the back cover may be the right decision, but be sure to consider how your audience are likely to interpret it.
We also talked about the book titles workshop replay (link available below) and the Realtor Case Study looking at the time it take leads to convert. The red line on the below chart shows the marketing costs and the yellow lines/dots show when people originally opted in before later converting and triggering a commission (the green line).
\n\nIt again highlights the value of a lead over the long term rather than looking for short term wins and the best way to compel invisible prospects to raise the hand... Your book!
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/038
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
The design of your cover is an opportunity amplify your title and one of the most important ways you can get the attention of passing 'eyes'.
\n\nDesigning something that achieves this without being distracting is both a skill and an art.
\n\nToday I'm talking with Glen Linton, one of our two in-house designers. Having created close to 200 covers, there aren't many subjects Glen hasn't created a cover for.
\n\nThis is a great call, not only for someone looking to design their own cover, but also for people working with us, as we talk about some of the key pieces of information that help Design create a Killer Cover for you.
\n\nI also mention the Titles Workshop we're doing with Dean Jackson on Wednesday 27th. Picking the right title is the most important factor in getting people to raise their hand. Wednesday's call will give you an insight into the important elements of a great title and give you the opportunity workshop a title with Dean directly.
\n\nYou can register here
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/037
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Even a complicated subject can be simplified through a book, to start a conversation and predispose people to take the next step with you.
\n\nToday, we're talking with Dr. Sunny Kim, the President of Progressive Rehabilitation in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. A practice that specializes in the non-surgical treatment of spine, sports and musculoskeletal pain conditions.
\n\nIt was a great call and especially interesting to hear how he's using his book, 'The Ultimate Non-Surgical Knee Pain Solution' to begin to educate patients about this relatively new and technical procedure.
\n\nThis understanding helps potential clients self-select, predisposing them to the next step and ultimately leading to much better conversations.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/036
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
We often talk of creating a book in terms of identifying your current clients, researching the information they're looking for and creating something of value for that group.
\n\nToday, we're looking at another approach and the opportunities to write something valuable, triggered by an external change.
\n\nOur main goal is to identify invisible leads and being there to offer helpful information when someone suddenly realizes they need to 'do something' is a great way to do just that.
\n\nWhether this is a time based event, or a change caused by policy, legislation, technology or environmental issues, change often creates an information void for people and presents the perfect opportunity for you to fill it.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/035
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Writing your book is a big step, but using it to start a conversation with a potential customer is the most important part.
\n\nToday, I'm talking with Dean about the ways your book can help set up a compelling conversation that draws out your five-star prospects from the crowd.
\n\nBy thinking a few steps ahead, knowing who your readers are and the ideal step you'd like your best readers (customers) to take, you can create a follow up sequence that starts the relationship in the best way. By offering information that helps.
\n\nAll leading toward getting that 'love letter' reply.
\n\nYou'll definitely want to check out the show note to see this.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/034
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
We often have calls with people who want to write a book for their business, but get stuck in the details. They have all these questions, but none really get them any closer to writing.
\n\nToday, Betsey and I run through the simple steps you can take to get started.
\n\nThis isn't about winning a literary award or writing a best seller. This is about using your experience to help customers and start a conversation.
\n\nWe see so many people using their books to create exciting new opportunities, it's frustrating when 'analysis paralysis' stop others from getting started.
\n\nToday we're here to help you keep it simple!
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/033
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
One of the most popular types of show, and one of my favorites, is where we get to talk with the people we've helped write a book.
\n\nToday, I catch up with David Kurz, Broker/Owner of Kurz Real Estate in Miami. Join us as we talk about their amazing growth over the last 12 months and how writing his books has help position his company, the agents that work for him as well and David personally as one of the leading Real Estate agencies in South Florida.
\n\nThis show is packed with ideas based on how David is using his books to engage customers, guide staff and reinforce his position as a leader in the industry.
\n\nYou can do the same... It all starts with Taking Action.
\n\nDavid's Books:
\nKurzRE.com
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/032
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Most people are familiar with using a book as lead generation, today we look at ways to use a book to motivate and educate people into taking action.
\n\nLess about identifying invisible leads, this strategy is best suited to compelling those already familiar with you (even if only a little) to take the next step.
\n\nProfit Activator 3 book example:
\nProfitActivatorScore.com
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/031
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
A catch up show today after a short summer hiatus. We talk about how some of the books are being used over the summer, discussions at Dean's European tour & the results of our recent Facebook ad test.
\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/030
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today we're looking at Facebook as a channel to promote your book.
\n\nLooking at the various types of Facebook pages, ads & events, we talk through the different way you can use your book to engage potential readers and start conversations.
\n\nProfiles
\nPages
\nGroups
\nEvents
\nLive Video
\nAds
\nLead Ads
\nThis is a great introduction to some of the ways you can find your audience.
If we missed any, or you want us to go deeper, let us know in the comments.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/029
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
A fantastic episode today. You'll want to grab a pen & paper for this one!
\n\nDean & I talk about leading people from requesting a copy of your book, through to conversations that give you the opportunity to solve people's problems.
\n\nIt's so easy to fall into the 'broadcast' trap of treating people as a metric rather than as individuals. In this show we're talking about specific ways to break that pattern and follow up with people in a more human way.
\n\nTechnology encourages us to treat 'Leads' as numbers in a CRM rather than individuals reading messages, so Dean shares 2 acronyms to put you in the best frame of mind to engage people and start real conversations.
\n\nL - let's
\nE - engage
\nA - and
\nD - do
\nS - something
which develops to
\n\nS - show
\nA - all
\nL - leads
\nE - easy
\nS - solutions
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/028
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
A special bonus episode today.
\n\nA few weeks ago Dean spoke with Bill Bloom. A 90-Minute Book author of The Yachters Guide to Early Retirement.
\n\nI wanted to share this great call with you as they go deep into the follow up opportunities once someone has read your book.
\n\nThe real magic is in starting a conversation with people who are likely to become customers/clients of yours. There is a lot of practical advice here in thinking about moving the conversation from invisible prospect, to visible client.
\n\nYou'll get a lot out of it following on from our pervious shows.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/027
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Part 2 of my favorite shows of the year so far...
\n\nThis week Betsey & I finish off talking about practical ways to use your book once it's complete. Using 'traditional' publishing strategies as the idea, we look at how you can tweak the tactic to really get the most bang for your book.
\n\nContinuing from last week we look at:
\n\nThe best ways to give copies away (including at live events)
\nThe problems with teaser content
\nOpportunities for product placement
\nand a handful of grab bag ideas
\nIf you have any ideas we missed, Send us an email
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/026
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
One of my favorite shows of the year so far...
\n\nThis week Betsey & I are talking about practical ways to use your book once it's complete. Using 'traditional' publishing strategies as the idea, we look at how you can tweak the tactic to really get the most bang for your book.
\n\nWe had 4 or 5 topics on the outline, but the conversation was so good we only go to cover 2 (plus a great side conversation on using meetup.com to get in front of people).
\n\nThis week we go deep into the better way to do a:
\n\nBook reading/signing
\nBook launch party
\nWe'll continue with the rest of the ideas next week...
LINKS
\nMeetup.com
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/025
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week I have a great call with someone who just joined the program about their thought process in deciding to write a book and the customers they aim to attract.
\n\nJulia Carlson is a Wealth Management expert with 20 years experience. As her own company has grown, she's found herself spending more time running the business and less face to face time with clients. She was looking for a way to leverage her knowledge and still help the people she's passionate about helping in a way that's more scalable than one on one.
\n\nA book is the perfect way to initiate those conversations and help people get started.
\n\nThis is a great call for anyone thinking about writing a book to engage clients. There are insights into the way you can resonate with people, the mindset of helping them in a way that makes it easy to get started and how to think about the next step, developing the relationship with your potential customers.
\n\nLINKS
\nFinancialFreedomWMG.com|Facebook
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/024
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week Dean & I talk about Information Goldmines. The knowledge you have at your fingers today, that will enable you to create a book that reveals invisible leads and starts conversations.
\n\nEven if you don't know where to start, there is a simple process to identify the most pressing questions in your customer's mind and follow up by answering the questions the should be asking.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/023
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week we've got a deep dive episode looking at the options to Recycle Reuse Record other content in your book.
\n\nWe'll occasionally speak to people who want to turn a presentation, or series of blog posts into a book. While this can give your campaign a boost, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. In today's show we look at the pitfalls of recycling, the opportunities of reuse & the easiest way to record to create the most effective book.
\n\nLINKS
\nWombat Selling Book
\nMoreCheeseLessWhiskers - Jamie Smart Episodes
\nProfit Activator Scorecard
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/022
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Creating a book is one thing, but how you use it is where the magic starts to happen.
\n\nIn today's show Susan & I talk about several real world examples of authors using their books to engage potential customers, be seen as authorities and change lives by providing useful, accessible information to an audience excited to hear what you have to say.
\n\nWe often get the question 'What now?' from people. In this show there are some great examples of how to use your book and if you haven't yet started, some great ideas of the outcome to help you simplify the process and get started faster.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/021
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Print advertising is often look at as the poor, unsophisticated cousin of online.
\n\nIn a world where it can be easy to get swayed by the abundance of vanity metrics, it's easy to forget that effectiveness is the really important metric & in certain markets, print can still get through where 'banner blindness' turns online into an ever increasing numbers game.
\n\nInspired by a 1/2 page print ad I saw over the weekend, today we're looking at a real life example print ad being run in a national newspaper.
\n\nThere are some great takeaways here you can use to engage cold leads.
\n\nRemember, this is a Profit Activator #2 tactic: Identifying invisible leads. You're not trying to convince people to do business with you (yet). This stage is all about compelling them to join a conversation with you.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/020
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This episode we talk about the Call to Action on the back cover of your book.
\n\nIf the most effective use of your book is to identify invisible leads, then the back cover is key to encouraging your reader to take the next step.
\n\nIt's easy for this to be an afterthought and try to 'convince' people to call for an appointment, rather than thinking strategically about the next Minimum Viable Commitment step you can ask people to take.
\n\nThe benefit of this second approach is to sift & sort hotter leads, by having them self-select as more interested, as well as giving still invisible readers, those who get a copy without opting in, an easy way to make themselves visible.
\n\nShow Example
\nIn the show we talk about the 2 examples. First using the explainer model, 'Here's how it works', and second, the Minimum Viable Commitment approach of 'Here's what to do next'.
It's important to understand neither is wrong (or right for everyone). Instead, think about the context of how you plan to use your book. What is the 'job of work' you’re trying to achieve and pick a back cover call to action that best supports that goal.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/019
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
In this episode we talk to Kevin Craig about his book The Professional Referral Solution and the surprising changes it has had on his business.
\n\nWritten as a way to give people a benchmark understanding of how he built his real estate business, Kevin's book has lead to speaking engagements and requests for both group and individual coaching from other professionals.
\n\nAs we head into 2017, Kevin talks about developing this additional stream of business further and reflects on the surprising opportunity his book helped create.
\n\nThis is a great episode for anyone thinking about the benefits a 90-Minute Books might deliver for you and your business.
\n\nKevin's book is also a great resource for anyone in sales looking for an alternative to cold calling. Grab a copy below.
\n\nLINKS
\nThe Professional Referral Solution
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/018
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
In this episode Dean & I talk about the importance of your book title and how to amplify your success by using some of the ingrained human triggers talked about in Robert Cialdini's new book Pre-suasion.
\n\nBy selecting a title that allows someone to identify themselves as a potential client, 'it sounds like this book could help me...' and using the title and subheading to plant the seed of the solution you can offer, you'll not only start to identify previously invisible leads, but also begin to predispose people to engage in a conversation with you.
\n\n'The Adult Acne Cure' and 'Email Mastery' both begin to offer the benefit of the solution rather than just an improved process.
\n\nOne of the most successful campaigns we've seen moves people from the below Email Mastery ad, to the book, to an email conversation... All perfectly congruent with the message of mastering email and building value at each stage.
\n\nAd offering value.
\nA landing page allowing them to complete the thought.
\nEmail: What business are you in?
\nEmail: Have you tried a 9-word email yet?
LINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/017
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
You're going to love todays episode. Yesterday Dean recorded an interview with one of our authors Joel Johnson. Joel owns an investment company up in the North East and has been using 90-Minute book style books to attract clients with various different needs into his business.
\n\nIt's an amazing behind the scenes looking into a successful marketing campaign.
\n\nToward the end of their talk, the conversation turns to referrals and there's an amazing breakthrough to orchastrate very specific referrals using Joel's 'Forced to Retire' book.
\n\nThis really is a fantastic episode for anyone considering a book, or looking for more way to leverage theirs.
\n\nIf you're ready to get started on yours, just head back to the home page & hit the get started button.
\n\nThis was also released on Dean's MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com podcast. Head over there for more shows diving deep into the 8-Profit Activators with real businesses just like yours.
\n\nIn the meantime, grab a coffee, grab a pen and listen in.
\n\nLINKS
\n\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/016
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week Betsey & I answer some of your questions... at least that was the plan. We end up deep diving 2 issues that come up time & again in the questions we field:
\n\nHow long should my book be?
\nHow much editing should I do?
\nThis is a hugely valuable show for anyone who has had a book on their 'to do' list. We focus on the purpose and benefits of writing a book to start a conversation with potential clients.
LINKS
\nHot Prospects Book
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/015
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week I'm joined by Betsey Vaughn again as we discuss two ideas for creating content. Using other people's expertise to add value to your potential customers and leveraging external changes like regulation or technology changes to be first to market and provide potential customers with the information they are looking for.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/014
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
A different type of episode this week. Today I want to share an interview Dean recorded with Joe Polish and Tucker Max earlier this year. This is a great call looking at two different book companies with similar processes, but very different objectives.
\n\nThere are some great pointers for anyone looking to outline and target their book and a real discussion on the most effective approach to generate more business. Do you want to be rich or famous?
\n\nWarning: This episode has some swearing.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/013
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week I'm joined by Betsey Vaughn, our chief Client Concierge as we look at one of the most popular questions we get; 'How can I market my book?'
\n\nToday we dive into the fundamentals of two approaches. Engaging people who already know you and attracting new leads.
\n\nLINKS
\n\nBreakthrough DNA Book (8-Profit Activators)
\nHarvard study. (Not quote the context I was thing of at the time, but high acquisition vs engagement of existing customers is still relevant. It's building the relationship with those who know, like or trust you)
Show notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/012
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
We're back with this month's Q&A show. We've had some great questions over the last few weeks. If you have anything we haven't addressed yet, then reach out to podcast@90minutebooks.com and we'll address it next time.
\n\nIn this show we look at:
\n\nCan I use a book at a trade show
\nHow can I leverage partners to promote my book
\nShould I focus on the physical or digital version
\nShould I bother with a Kindle version
\nWhat are some questions I can use to write about
LINKS
\n\n\n\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/011
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
30 minutes of actionable advice to make the very best use of your time. The 'Minimum Effective Dose' is the right amount of effort you need to get the best results.
\n\nIn today's show, Dean & Stuart talk about some of the insights from the latest Breakthrough Blueprint Live event and look at the trifecta of a 90-Minute Book, a single purpose landing page and an email that expects a reply to get optin rates as high as 50-60%
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/010
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week Dean & I have a great discussion about bridging topics. It's a must listen if you're looking for step by step pointers to decide how best to engage your audience and outline your content.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/009
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Today we dig deep into two examples of people using their books to generate more business.
\n\nIt's sometimes easy to forget your book is not the product, but the introduction to your product. A way for you to start a conversation. In this show we look at some great examples of how you can use your book in a Facebook campaign or as a referral tool.
\n\nLINKS
\nBreakthrough DNA
\nEp002: An interview with Glenn McQueenie
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/008
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Susan & I are back to help you get your book written and out there engaging your audience.
\n\nIn this show we discuss why less is more and how in most cases a shorter book has many advantages over a larger book. Whether that is the likelihood of someone reading it, the opportunity to add value by delivering more content later or just the easier proposition in writing a shorter book.
\n\nLINKS
\nA very short introduction book series - Amazon
\nHot Prospects, Cool Publishing. 4 simple steps to creating your greatest lead generation tool.
\nSubscribe in iTunes
Show notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/007
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Q&A time! We're back after the Memorial Day break with a Q&A session answering some of the questions we've had in over the last few weeks.
\n\nIn this show we answer:
\n\nHow big should my book be?
\nWhere do I start?
\nShould I include all this other 'Stuff'?
\nIs it worth paying for a color interior?
\nHow do I know if my target audience is too big or small?
\nShould I go for a short or descriptive title?
\nWhat will a book do for my business?
LINKS
\n\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/006
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Lisa Sasevich joins us to talk about how your book can lead people to an existing part of your conversion path, for example a webinar. By pre-disposing people to want to do business with you and setting the context of the next step in your book, you can boost your sales and dramatically improve the effectiveness of your campaign.
\n\nLINKS
\nBoostYourSalesBook.com
Show notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/005
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Where you’re book fits in your lead funnel is an important consideration. Susan & Stuart discuss the benefits and challenges of leading readers toward the next step.
\n\nLINKS
\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/004
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
In this weeks show, join Dean & Stuart as they look through the gallery of 90-Minute Books and discuss what make a compelling title & killer cover.
\n\nFor those joining in at home you can see all the covers in The Gallery.
\n\nLINKS
\n\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/003
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
Glenn McQueenie's original plan was to write a book for his team members, but it quickly started opening unexpected doors. We dive in to this case study to discover how it happened.
\n\nLINKS
\n\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/002
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
This week we start by looking at how a book can be your very best lead generation tool, including some of the common pitfalls to avoid.
\n\nLINKS
\n\nShow notes: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/001
\nTitles & Outline Workshops: 90MinuteBooks.com/Workshops
\nReady to get started: 90MinuteBooks.com
\nInterview Shows: 90-Minute Books Author Interviews
Questions/Feedback: Send us an email
\nExtra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com