Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Geoff Hoatson, elder law lawyer at Family First Firm in Altamonte Springs, Florida and author of Next Stop: Nursing Home, a book that helps people who are looking to protect their wealth, inheritance, and utilize Medicaid for nursing home and specialist support.
Geoff's business is in an interesting position because a lot of the time, the people they're talking to and trying to engage the family members of an older relative who are in a difficult position and need that full-time care. So although their clients are ultimately the patient, the person needing care, the conversation starts with the family members.
This is a fascinating conversation about how they help by revealing options people aren't aware of, all while keeping a balanced approach to their client and the family member who may be asked to make decisions.
I really enjoyed catching up with Geoff, and it's great to hear his thoughts on how a book is making a difference in helping people help their families preserve wealth.
LINKS
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TRANSCRIPT
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
Stuart: Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here. Today we've got a great interview with Jamie Smart. So Jamie's the author of three books, one with us and two traditional books. The first, clarity, is actually coming up for its 10 year anniversary, so a refreshed version, all updated, is just on the way out.
We had a chat with Jamie talking about what he's learned over the last 10 years in using the books in his business, how his business has developed since having the books and what's really come from it. And this idea of using your book as a greenhouse to nurture the relationships with people and how it's a great opportunity to build a rapport. And this idea of getting the clients to the point where they know like and trust you and are enthusiastically ready to do business with you. So great episode. I love talking to Jamie. We've met in person a number of times back in the UK. So with that, let's get to the episode. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. Today we've got, I think, a returning guest. I think, jamie, you've been on this show before. You've definitely been on some of the other shows.
I've been on shows, that's for sure, yeah definitely been on shows, so people will hopefully recognise the voice, if not the face, because now we've got glorious Technicolor video. So Rob is Rob. I just said Rob off camera. I got Rob in my head. Jamie's here because we're talking about a 10 year relaunch of one of his books and then there's a couple of other books he's gotten stable, so it's a great opportunity to touch base and see how he's been using the various books in the different funnels, what has come from them in something that's now 10 years down the track, which is kind of surprised both of us. So, jamie Smart, why don't you give everyone a quick Jamie Smart catch up if this is their first experience?
Geoff: Got it so okay. So I'm Jamie and I'm a business owner, a coach, a trainer. I teach a lot of coaches, work with businesses, that sort of thing. My kind of niche, if you like, is mindset. So I talk about the principles behind clarity and subtractive psychology, and the basic idea is that you know how most people have a lot on their mind. I mean, you know how most people had a lot on their mind 10 years ago.
Stuart: Well, now, most people really have a lot on their mind.
Geoff: Well, we teach people a simple understanding that takes things off your mind, so you have the confidence and presence and well-being to enjoy your life and do whatever you're here to do. So that's what we're up to, and my first book, clarity, came out 10 years ago. That became a bestseller, followed up by a book called Results, which became a Sunday Times bestseller. But in there I also created a book with Stuart and Dean called well, originally it was called your exponential practice scorecard, so it was aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers. I've changed the name of that about five times and so now it's called the Thriving Coaches Scorecard and we've got the Thriving Coaches Scorecard, the Thriving Coaches Facebook group, the Thriving Coaches podcast, and the idea is that all these things create what I call a greenhouse, which is an idea I got from, and a book is an example of a greenhouse.
It's an idea I got from a guy called Chris Tomasulo about a million years ago and he said look, if you want to grow a plant in the desert, you've got to put up a greenhouse and irrigate it. He said well, I heard him say this in like 2003 or 2004,. Right, so early days of the internet. He goes the internet is a desert. No one's ever going to find you there. He says if you want to cultivate relationships in that desert, you need to put up a greenhouse and you need to irrigate it, and that metaphor really struck me, and so I see all these things each book, each podcast, each Facebook group. It is a greenhouse for nurturing and cultivating relationships with people, some of whom are going to want to do business with you.
Not all of them. Not everyone who reads this book or this book is going to want to do business with me, but some of them will. Some of them will read them and go. Oh my God, I never want to have to deal with this guy.
Stuart: At least it's all collecting yeah yeah, that's cool too.
Geoff: So the idea, what's happened over the last 10 years is I've learned lots about all kinds of things, including marketing and how to use a book and that sort of thing, because, well, you'll know this, stuart, it's kind of funny. When Clarity first came out, I had this kind of idealized vision, which was basically step one the book hits the bookshops. Step two here come the clients, and while there was some of that, it doesn't work like that. It didn't work exactly like that. There were some people who just called. So this was before I started working with you guys. This is like 2013.
There were people who would call up, say, hey, I just read the book, I want to book on a program, or they go online or whatever. But it wasn't quite the deluge that I was hoping for, and so what I realized is, while the book is great, the book's a greenhouse, a great way of people building relationship. You also need ways to kind of stay in touch and serve them and take people on a journey which I learned from Dean, which is to basically educate and motivate. The book is a great way of educating and motivating people to the point. Can I tell you my way of understanding it? Yeah for sure.
Well, my assumption is that there's two things people absolutely have to have before they're going to work with you. This is true as a coach, but it's a change worker, and a trainer, but it's probably true of a pretty much anything. The first thing is they got to have a relationship with you. They got to know you and like you and trust you, and that takes a certain amount of time to build. Now, if someone's going to do eye surgery on you or open heart surgery on you, you probably need quite a bit more knowing and liking and trusting than if they're going to make a sandwich for you, but so it's going to be relevant by degree, not by type.
Stuart: By degree it varies. Yeah, yeah.
Geoff: So, number one, they've got to know you and like you and trust you, and that's going to take some time to build that relationship. But the other thing is they've got to have some problem or want or need or desire that they want to solve and they want your help with. And the thing is an insight for me, which I may have got from you guys or I may have innovated on my own was I realized that at the time someone goes out to solve a problem, almost by definition, they don't know enough about the problem space to come up with a good solution and they don't know enough about the problem space to decide whether you're a good person I help them with it or not. So they need that time of getting to know you, getting to know what matters to them. They need time to get present to what they really need. I found that a book is a great way of getting someone to start that journey and then to take them up.
Stuart: Educate and keep the conversation going. Yeah, exactly the idea that for most of us in the businesses that we're in so professional services business it's not like we're plumbers, where in a plumbing world you're going to have two types of clients those who immediately need something because water is pouring out of the ceiling and those who have got a job somewhere further down the track. So for us, as professional services people, we're mainly in that second group. There's not many of our clients who absolutely categorically need to do this very second. So that, by very definition of the work that we do, means that it's a longer conversion period, it's more relationships-based, because they haven't got that driving need to get it sorted out immediately.
It's when it tips that threshold of now's the time, now's my time, now's the time to do it for me. Yes, the people I'm surrounded by, the people I'm invested in, are the ones to do it with and there's a clear and obvious, easy path to move it forward. It's not like it's. Yes, I know that these, yes, I know now's the time for me. Yes, I know that these people are way to do it. But it's difficult and convoluted and cumbersome to get going If we can ease that path by making offers regularly so that when today's the day for them, they can just raise their hand and get started. It's such a difference maker from either building it and hoping they'll come or making people jump through hoops in order to evidence that they're the right clients for you, because you're trying to sift them and select them out or filter them out before they even come through.
So that kind of conversation starting book leading to a conversational conversion framework.
You're right, there's going to be some people who are just always going to be consumers in the world, but by putting out the same information to all of those people, the ones who are clients are going to be compelled to take the step from that greenhouse, as you describe it. I think it's such a great analogy as well because it's very kind of visual, kind of looking out the window. Here We've got a greenhouse just down in the garden which in January is covered in ice, but in the summer it's a greenhouse. But this idea of nurturing things and nurturing different things, so one greenhouse here, another greenhouse here and another one there, all nurturing different conversations I think that's an easy way for people to understand what it is you're talking about in terms of having these different approaches and the different books help in those, and the different presences, like the podcast and all these ways you've gotten engaging with people, all leading back to the same framework and that framework gives people an easy path to kind of continue that journey.
Geoff: Yeah, well, and even something like an email list looks to me like, or a Twitter feed or something like. That is a greenhouse. There's this you heard of sub-stack, right, there's this couple of guys who write an article a paid article that comes out a couple of times a week on sub-stack and their greenhouse is Twitter. So they're tweeting I don't know a dozen times a day or something and sharing occasional long tweet threads and that sort of thing and giving free previews of the article. But then you go over there and it's really high quality stuff. After a little while of reading their tweets and reading their preview posts, you're like man, this guy knows what he's talking about. I'm in right, or I'm not interested in what this guy's talking about. I'm going to mute them.
Well, yeah, the thing that strikes me I don't know if this is certainly not unique to my business, but certainly any business where the person's going to be working closely with you my rule of thumb is that before someone's going to sign up to work closely with you, they're probably going to need to spend somewhere between four and eight hours with you, whether that's listening to stuff or reading stuff, or watching videos or reading articles or reading books and a book is a great depending on the length of the book. A great is a great way of getting a chunk of that. If it's a book that they're going to refer to again and again, it's a great. So even if it's a small book, but it's one that they'll keep referring to and dipping into and that sort of thing, it's a great way of building that relationship.
Stuart: It ties into what you were saying about the problem set. Oftentimes they don't understand the problem set A podcast I'm not sure how this is going to fall into the release schedule, so I think it was maybe three weeks ago, as people are listening to this, when it releases. Three weeks ago we recorded a show with Betsy, just touching on the beginning of the year. What suggestions would we make? And one of the key things is just this idea of content in 2023 really being a watershed moment. So it's been a game changer for the last couple of years, but really, I think 2023, with the advent of chat, gdp and the ability to more quickly create a baseline of content, everyone else is going to start jumping on that bandwagon. So if you don't have anything, you're going to get left behind. If you're just doing what everyone else is doing, like the bare minimum AI version, okay, you're going to keep up, but the opportunity is really to add something new.
So we were talking about a similar thing in people not understanding the problem set and asking questions that maybe aren't the most relevant questions. So we came up with a quick model that, even if you don't know what to write about, but you think a book is a good idea, then an easy way of creating something is what we've started referring to as the five by five model. So five questions that customers ask and there's easy ways of getting that information. Five questions or five things that they should be asking. So this is you sharing your inside information, and then five action steps, five things that they can take, and then the other two fives to round it out, and all beyond the board.
But those, just as you were saying that, them not understanding their problem set, so needing to spend some additional time with you in order to understand exactly where they are and evidence to themselves that you're the right person to help them solve the problem. Breaking those things down I mean, the idea of the five by five book is to quickly and easily create something that's kind of in a subject, but thinking about developing those additional hours. So that book would take I'm not the fastest reader would take an hour to read, okay, so what we're going to do for those other seven hours. Well, each of those 10 elements that we've just identified, there's an hours worth of podcast in each of those elements to drive a little bit deeper. So the ability now to nurture all of those things in the greenhouse from a couple of seed plants but then propagate some other things kind of killing this metaphor a little bit.
But maybe it's a death's jerk, go for it. I know that's it. It's a good metaphor. Let's hammer the heck out of it. But it's such an easy thing to do because, like you said, clarity, the whole purpose of that. There's so much going on compared with I was talking to someone again a storytime. I was talking to someone a couple of weeks ago might even have been before Christmas. So I'm 47 now.
My first job out of college was in 95. And it really was on 96. But it really wasn't. I can remember being at my first job when we were given email addresses. So I was working before we had email addresses. I think I still had a personal email address because Geeky techie did that personally. But trying to think back to a time when you worked in a job there wasn't constantly interrupted by email, it's almost thinking what were we doing? But clarity, so to take away some of the noise and be able to focus on certain things, this whole framework that we're talking about, of generating this eight hours worth of stuff, of having these opportunities for people to join the funnel at the top, staying in touch with them later, it can seem overwhelming. So to be able to break that down into something that's easy and manageable and unsubject, that's, scope constrained but valuable. I think all of that adds into the clarity of the marketing piece of thinking about this as an approach.
Geoff: I couldn't agree more. The thing that I found like for me, as you'll probably remember, when I did the exponential practice scorecard book, that was at the beginning of sort of experimenting with this stuff and building it out and that sort of thing, and it really helped me to just nail down the book, so that I because then I had to to me in a way and this is maybe a weird way of putting it, but once the book was done, there was a pretty much kind of fix like it was almost like the keystone of everything else that go up. It's kind of funny actually that this might be interesting. So how it strikes me, stuart, is that when I wrote clarity right, so clarity came out in 2013.
I started writing it in 2011 as part of a kind of promotional exercise. I said to my audience so I got a bunch of people on my email list I said I'm going to write a book, I'll send you a chapter a week. Here it goes. So I wrote that and then over time, you know, ended up getting into bookstores in 2013.
But what I didn't realize was that this book was like a seed that was getting planted in the ground and what grew out of it is the whole business that I have today. So I've got the clarity certification training, the clarity events, training that all the my girlfriend and I are kicking off a program this weekend called the Clarity Professional Program. So that kind of that book was a keystone for the whole business. The what is now the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book is a keystone for that particular aspect of our business teaching coaches how to build a thriving practice. And the thing that suddenly struck me the new edition of Clarity is coming out literally end of this month as we record, so end of January is the 10th anniversary edition. And what suddenly struck me earlier last year was that that's a new seed that I'm planting in the ground and something new is going to grow from that. And some of it's going to be the same stuff I've already got, just, you know, re-energized by the new book and all that sort of thing. But some of it's going to be new stuff because, of course, I'm in a different place and it's a different book and the audience is in a different place. So it's really cool. But here's the other thing related to that might be interesting from what can you do with a book? So after a few years, what's?
A lot of people have read your book, a lot of people who are connected to you, so I don't know. A bunch of people in the world have read my books, but only a relatively small number of those are within my close greenhouse, like they're seeing my Facebook messages, they're reading my emails, that sort of thing. A bunch of people read the book. It's on their bookshelf. They never heard from me again, that kind of thing.
But there are a bunch of people who are kind of in my world, so to speak, and those are the people who are also my best clients, the most likely people to do business with me again when they need help with something and that sort of thing. So those are the people who we've cultivated relationship with over the years. So we're getting ready for the new edition to launch and my publishers emailed me last week. They said oh, jamie, I'm sure you haven't forgotten this, but you need to do pre-orders on Amazon now. Basically, you need a bunch of people to go in pre-order from Amazon to get the book. I was like I had forgotten, so I'm like oh, what am.
I going to do so. I go onto Facebook and I say hey guys, 10th anniversary edition of Clarity is coming out. I need your help. We've got to do pre-orders, and here's why. But here's the thing I'm not trying to get a best seller here. I just want people who are going to read the book, because I know if you read the book, it's going to make a difference to you. So if you really want to read the book, you can be one of the first people to get a copy of it. Just go to Amazon and place your pre-order and it'll be the first ones that get mailed out on 20th anniversary.
Well, hundreds of people. It's like send one to me, send one to me. Send one because they want to be part of it. Because they're not? Yes, I'd like to think they're doing it because it's going to be such a great group book. But here's the thing that people may miss. A big part of why they want to do it is they want to help you out, especially when you're talking about content. If people are connected with a content creator and enjoying their content and like what they're saying, like where they're coming from, like their perspective on the world, they want you to do well Because, for a bunch of reasons A, they're nice, they care about you, it endorses the fact that they're buying into your view of the world as well, so it's all good. So to me, the book is this keystone that allows all those relationships to grow from it. So it's really cool.
Stuart: It's an interesting asset and I say to people a lot that 90-minute books is a marketing company. It just happens that books is the most effective way of achieving what we're trying to achieve. So it's unclear how long this psychological element will continue, but there's definitely a disproportionate psychological advantage of having a book. I just recorded a podcast yesterday with Rob Legenhausen, who's a financial planner like a wealth management firm. So they've written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, because a lot of their work is specifically around dividends rather than portfolio work or ETFs, mutual funds so that's their perspective. So he's had a book for a couple of months now.
He was saying the majority of his clients are slightly older than us and those people are very keyed into. Well, he was saying I don't know whether it's just because those people are slightly older and they come from an old publishing mentality. So if he was talking with 18 year olds it might not be the same. But just physically, having the book is a game changer. It stops people in their tracks, there's an authority around it and it builds that community much more than a newsletter does or an email does, even though the content is still effectively the same thing. It's worked on a page, but the psychology around it is still different.
Geoff: It really is, I think. Well, it may be different to 18 year olds and things. The things that strikes me, stuart, is that books are lindy, like books have been around for I don't know when was the printing press the 1600s, the 1500s? So books have been around about 500 years. Iphones have been around about 14 years. So books are way more lindy than iPhones. So books are way more lindy than Kindles. Now, kindles is a really useful way to consume information, but there's a way in which books are kind of magical objects, and I don't mean that in a woo woo way. I mean it's just like a deck of cards or I don't know. Ok, I've got books and decks of cards. They have a certain totemic quality to them Basically.
Even the word author is like the root of the word authority. So there's, they imbue a certain amount of authority and credibility.
Stuart: Yeah, yeah, we were talking on. I can't. This year has been a strange year in the sense that it's there's been so many people have reached out so I've for years I've offered like strategy calls out there Just say hey, because I love talking about this type of thing, as you can tell from the podcast. So I pretty much always offered strategy calls but not that many people have picked up on them, so I can't actually tell. At the end of last year people might have noticed, but at the end of last year I made a commitment to be more front of camera facing, like broadcasting more of our stuff. But for 10 years we've kind of run it in the background but not really overly publicized it or talked about it that much, because it doesn't come naturally to me. I don't. If I'm thinking about doing something, I'm thinking about fixing the problem or doing something behind the scenes, not publishing something out front. So anyway, towards the end of the year I made a commitment to change that a little bit. So it might be partly that might be other factors.
But talking on strategy calls about this idea of of authoring, the idea not writing a book. So writing a book is a technical element which is a headache and pain in the neck, and that's why 90 minute books exist, because we tried to say the writing element away from it, because that's not the important piece. The important piece is being the author of an idea, and you can be the author of an idea on Twitter or in a book or on a video, but it's the shaming ideas which is the main thing. The functionality or the process of doing the book is almost secondary. Yes, end up with a product, but again that idea out there. It's a big difference.
Geoff: I can tell you a real, I can give you a real time example that has happened on this call. When you said, oh yeah, my last guest was Rob, who's written a book called the Dividend Lifestyle, I mean immediately went I get it. I need to speak to Rob, right Done, like just you telling me the title of his book. Now here's the thing, but here's the thing that people made. Here's the thing that looks so amazing about that to me.
Rob didn't come to you and say I want to write a book called the. I mean, he may have, but my assertion is, if Rob's like almost every author, he came to you and said I want to write a book called those 17 ways to do X, y and Z. And you guys were like you know what, rob? I think there may be an even better title out there. Let's see if we can find it. And what he's got with the Dividend Lifestyle is a title that for the right people and I'm one of them they're like I get it. I need to have a conversation with that man. Done Right, yeah, like that's powerful. Now, my guess is that I did that. Behind it will have existed that phrase the Dividend Lifestyle may well not have existed if it wasn't for Rob going through the process Right.
Stuart: Yeah, it's so funny. I mean the one of the reasons we? Well, there's two reasons for switching the setup of this show to be more focused on individuals and their books, and whether they've written them with us or not, it doesn't matter, it's just the idea of getting the book out there, more focused in the conversation, starting books rather than the traditional books, because that's really what we're encouraging people to do. But still, users or not doesn't matter, just get the damn thing out there. But one of the reasons for one of the other reasons for switching is because we spent 100 episodes kind of retelling the same story, kind of hammering home the same points, and after 100 episodes you kind of think I've been here before, but once transpired in the last, I think we're. Maybe this is the eighth or ninth one of this type that we've done, but still the same message comes through. But it's so much more contextual or real, having a conversation about it rather than just trying to educate about it. Because the ideas that we've got in the book blueprint, scorecard, the framework book, the eight mindsets that talk about the choosing a single target market, a title that resonates and amplifying sub-adding, minimum, viable commitment calls to action, to make it easy to take the next steps. And then, looking at the internal parts, the purposeful outline, so it guides people. Something where value-driven content, so you're giving people value in the content, you're not trying to bait and switch them into a meeting.
The beneficial constraints, which is one that no one thinks about. What without constraints? Because we're all business owners listening to this, no one. We've set our lives up specifically that we haven't got people telling us what to do. But the downside to that is three years later, five years later, we still haven't done the thing. So the idea of beneficial constraints. And then, beyond the book, how are we going to actually use it? To put it in a greenhouse, to amplify it, and not just build it? And they will come so to be able to have these real-life examples and not just teach. I mean, hopefully people are getting much more value than just listening to me, benny Betze, hear every week about why you should do it. I'm sure this tangent was going somewhere, but I've lost the thought.
Geoff: Well, I tell you what I get there's a bunch of things I get from it, which is that, among other things, obviously this podcast is also a greenhouse. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with you. It's an opportunity for people to build relationship with your guests, so there's a win-win there. But here's the other thing that strikes me. Stuart, like I think, you and I first met on the first breakthrough blueprint that Dean did in London that I came on, which must be, I'm going to say, like 10 years ago nearly nine years ago, something like that.
Stuart: Time goes fast.
Geoff: Well, so I've done a certain amount of business with you guys, right, but not like millions of dollars. I've been spent millions of dollars with you, but we got a great relationship and like I. So this is an offer, also an opportunity to continue developing that relationship. Like you told me, oh yeah, we're hoping to do a breakthrough blueprint in London. So I'm like man, yeah, it's about time I'd like to go on that again. You know all that sort of stuff, right, so it's all part of it. It's an opportunity for people to. I once heard Alex Mandozian put it brilliantly. He said he wants people to turn up the volume or change the channel. So it's like so it's not about making something that everyone's going to like, it's that you're creating something that people are going to learn from and build that relationship, and yeah.
Stuart: I just think it's great One of the interesting things and want to be respectful of your time because I can talk for far too long, unlike me, right. Like I know this could be a long episode for people listening. Just get some. We're both drinking, so get some coffee and buckle in. One of the things, though that's interesting, you were talking about the framework and turn up the volume or change the channel. That's such a clear message that I think the majority of people can take.
So the conversations that we have with people, two things happen all the time. One I first thought about this years ago and we've had a conversation with you years ago and still haven't done it. So that's the first thing, the kind of get off the fence and just do it, don't overthink it, it could be done by now. And the second one is this idea of a framework. So a lot of people will come thinking about the book as a broad thing. They're scared about choosing the single target market because most businesses can do five things at least and they don't want to double down. And that makes it difficult for people to turn up the volume because they're never sure about what they're going to get. It's kind of like TV channels or podcasts. You pretty much can understand this podcast is never going to talk about relationships or technology, because we're talking about books as a marketing tool. So there's a clarity around that, the framework. So again, the conversation with Rob from yesterday is clear my head because it was just today. But the dividend lifestyle I was asking him what they do as an onboarding process for clients and how can they bridge what they're already doing into a framework that uses the dividend lifestyle names. So, just like you were talking about in the clarity framework, you've got a whole world surrounding this. Now, the opportunity to name it and claim it around a framework just gives people commonality of language and I think that helps build rapport and helps build the relationship because you're all you're talking about a known set of language.
Back in my corporate IT days there's a whole load of acronyms and terms and frameworks and models that people use in the business and it's almost a little bit exclusionary. We talked about this with the financial advisors and the lawyer type clients that we have. There's a risk of the language being exclusionary if it's talked about in a certain way, but there's the opportunity for a framework to be inclusionary. That's even a word. I've been in America too long and making up words. Inclusive, that's the obvious word and there's the opportunity for the framework to be inclusive because you can build a structure around things. So you were talking about having worked in our world, in Deans world, for coming up on 10 years now. The B3B looping framework is a language that we can use to bring it all together. So that's really an interesting insight from some of the conversations in the last few days of building that rapport and kind of feeding the plants in the greenhouse.
Geoff: Well, the thing I appreciate about the framework you guys use in Breakthrough Blueprint and I think this is the thing that really strikes me is it's a framework that, as soon as I learned it as soon as it took a little while, because it's like seeing something going on, it's like seeing something that's already there, but that's the thing I loved about it it got me closer to the reality of what's already going on.
And the thing I love about that framework is that it simplifies things by getting you closer to reality. So it's not an abstract concept or idea. It's not even a prescriptive framework. It's a descriptive framework. It's describing something that's already true, that's already at play in every business, and that's what made it so powerful. It's what I've done with the book Clarity as well. I've tried to make it purely descriptive, so it gets you closer to something that's already going on for you in your business, in your relationships, in your mind, because if you can make a framework that works like that, it's going to unleash so much power for people, and I think that's what you guys have done with Breakthrough Blueprint or Breakthrough.
Stuart: BNN. Yeah, and the same with the book scorecards and the same with all of the ones where we have a Well, I could hear it in the book scorecard.
Geoff: I could hear some of the. I was sensing it already. Sorry to interrupt.
Stuart: No, well, just as you were saying, trying to keep it so that it's easy to understand and universally applicable, and it just changes by a degree. So just jumping back to the we're kind of wrapping up now. Jumping back to the three books that you've got. So Clarity's, on its 10th anniversary revision Results, is there, and the Thrive Framework one. Those three are they part of? What's the best way of saying this? They're obviously all part of the same thing, because they're all part of your world and how you help people, but do they the way that you use them? I'm just trying to bridge this for other people who are listening, who don't have any books yet and can might feel overwhelmed by the idea of having one. That alone. Three Do you use them in quite different ways? Are they addressing different markets or do they build on each other? Good question, they're thematically very similar.
Geoff: Okay, so in reverse order, the Thriving Coaches Scorecard book, aka the Exponential Practice Scorecard, aka the profitable Coaches Scorecard, that specifically aimed at coaches, therapists, change workers, people who are looking to build a thriving business doing the work that they're passionate about in terms of helping other people out. So coaches, therapists, change workers, that sort of thing. Now there's a special sweet spot, which is it's leveraging all of the stuff from this book and this book for a very specific outcome. So in every single one of those steps it turns out that the main thing that for that audience specifically, who traditionally hate selling, hate marketing, anything like that, it's showing how understanding the principles behind clarity can turn selling from being a icky, manipulative that sort of thing to actually being heartfelt, connective relationship, enhancing all that sort of stuff. So it's leveraging the stuff from these books in a specific application. You could say. So the application is building a thriving coaching business as an application of the principles in these books.
The book clarity, which is the first one, is the most general of all the books, so it's for any one. So we've had everyone from business owners to charity leaders, to prison inmates, to people in recovery centers, to army veterans. I did a talk on this stuff at the NATO Defense College in Rome last summer. We've had people from all walks of life reading clarity, writing to us about. It sold about 70,000 copies so far, so it's our most general book. And then results is a. All the books are what I term as business-friendly personal development. Results is a more business. Your mom could read clarity and go. That was lovely. Results is a more business-focused out coding of the principles behind clarity.
So it's working on the same kind of More, kind of actionable.
Stuart: Yeah.
Geoff: So I think of it as being three elements. There's what I call grounding, which is kind of the mindset piece. There's impact, which is the difference you make to people, and then there's leverage, which is how you get paid for it, so it's who you're being, what you're doing and how you're making the cash register ring. So results is divided into those three sections, and so is the thriving coaches scorecard book, because it's a more business-friendly coding, whereas clarity isn't. Clarity is all about you and your mind and your relationships and stuff.
Stuart: Yeah, it's interesting the different perspectives and the different use cases for it. So, going into clarity again, we're a nine-minute book audience, so most of the people listening are thinking about it more specifically in terms of that single target market and the marketing piece. So clarity is coming from that broader perspective. It's almost like Very general.
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes we refer to them as manifesto books, although again, we usually talk about smaller books, but introducing that topic, but the way that they build together, I think, whether you're, as you're listening to this, whether or watching this, as you're thinking about the book to go out, there is definitely the fixing and solving a problem which is very specific. Here's what you should know, almost like the how-to type book, this idea of a manifesto book as well. Introducing an idea obviously you don't need to. It doesn't have to be as big or as broad as clarity. That's a substantial, what we would call a traditional book.
But the idea of introducing that idea, even if it's just positioning your way of thinking out in the world and kind of planting a flag and, just as you said, you don't know what's then going to grow from it, even if you don't have a very clear strategy for the marketing. Very specifically, from the book to an auto responder, to a flagship broadcast, to an offer, even if that's not in place. Again, going back to that idea that 2023 is really going to be a watershed moment for content, naming and claiming that and getting it, planting a flag out there, and then who knows what will come from it. If nothing else, I think that's worthwhile for people who are listening to this and on the fence.
Geoff: I think that makes a lot of sense and you guys do that right. You'll help people write a manifesto book. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense because, as much as anything, one of the things that clarity has done for my business is it's one of the biggest jobs it's done is as a positioning tool. It's positioned, it's basically said this is what the understanding is, this is what it is, this is what it is and here's who it's for, here's who it can help. All that sort of stuff and a lot of this will resonate with you.
I'm sure, stuart, a lot of people when I meet them, they go oh I wanted to work with you, that sort of thing. I bought your book. I didn't actually read it. They're still working with me because they bought the book, because that was the first step, and then they listened to a podcast and that sort of thing and then, before they know it, we're working together because they've had enough input from whatever sources were right for them to do it, but it was the book that got them started on the path.
Stuart: It's the element, it's one of the elements of that know I can trust. So whether or not they read it, I posted something yesterday. I tweeted out a little essay thing that I wrote saying no one reads anymore. You should write a book, and it just talks about readership rates and how relatively low they are, even for fiction, where the job of work is literally to read. So why would anyone read your book? But the point is that it exists, that you've got it, that there's the opportunity to start conversations. So such a great point. Where can people find out more and make sure that we give people access? Because I've read Clarity and it's the original version, so it's definitely really helps that cut through the noise. So again that if none of the others way worth that way with the time in reading, so where can people go to get copies of all of them?
Geoff: So all the books are on Amazon wherever you are. It just, funnily enough, it just hit number one in business development and entrepreneurship in the UK before it's even been released, so that's our fastest number one ever. The Thriving Coach's scorecard is free on our website, so if you go to jamesmartcom, you can download it for free there Though I'm going to be talking to you, Stuart, about getting it paid for on Amazon, so I don't know if I'll keep the free version there. But also we released it on the podcast and stuff like that, the audio version, just because it's a great way of people consuming the information. And then Results Clarity the little book of Results, the little book of Clarity. You can find out about them at Amazon or wherever you get books, and the jamesmartcom has everything. And then I mean all the usual social places at jamesmartcom, so I'm on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and all that stuff.
Stuart: Well, I'll make sure to put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, just hit on the most podcast players, play the show notes. Or, if you're following the email, just check out the website. I'll link to the US stores just because it's easy to go from here, but I think Amazon will automatically redirect if you're in a different region, so that'll be the easiest way. And definitely check out jamesmartcom for all things jamesmart.
Geoff: Thanks, man, great to see you.
Stuart: Great to see you too. It's time to come fast. Thanks again for your time, and then we'll check in less than 10 years in the future.
Geoff: Looking forward to it.