We all have a sales role. Whether selling to clients, team members, or employees, the opportunity to improve our skills in this area can be hugely beneficial.
Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with sales expert Tim Wackel about what it means to be a successful salesperson.
Tim shares how his engineering background sparked a passion to focus less on individual transactions and more on the outcomes of the human connections behind every interaction.
We explore his philosophy that true sales mastery is an art that requires patience and care to understand clients' needs at a deep level. He offers a candid perspective on cultivating sales skills.
Tim's experience with salespeople across industries leads to some great examples and techniques we can all use.
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
- Tim Wackel discusses transitioning from electrical engineering to sales, and how sales, when done correctly, can be a powerful tool to help people.
- We examine the long-term nature of successful selling and creating value for clients rather than just meeting sales quotas.
- The conversation differentiates between peddlers, who are transaction-focused, and partners, who invest in their clients' long-term success and satisfaction.
- We explore the importance of consistency in actions over seeking immediate, flashy results for building a reliable brand presence.
- The role of books in establishing conversations and authority in a field is discussed, along with the limitations of AI as a replacement for authentic voice and personal connections.
- I share insights on the significance of asking questions and listening to clients to ensure that the sales narrative is informed and focused on clients' needs.
- Tim highlights the strategy of using the back cover of a book as a conversation starter and the placement of probing questions to engage interested clients.
- There's an emphasis on relationship-building and understanding clients' needs for fostering long-term partnerships and repeat business.
- We address the challenges sales teams face in balancing the pressure of meeting immediate sales targets with maintaining a customer-centric approach.
- Tim uses an agricultural analogy to describe nurturing sales skills, emphasizing that sales success is not immediate but requires time and effort to grow.
Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/168
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Extra Credit Listening: MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com
TRANSCRIPT
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
Tim: But we've got to give those seeds a chance to grow. You know, I kind of grew up in an agricultural surrounding and you know my dad didn't wake up in the fall and say, oh crap, I need a crop. I'm going to go out and plant Right. You plant in the spring, you fertilize, you till you need sunshine, you need moisture, and then in the fall you have a crop. And it's the same way with selling and sales skills. You just you can't flip a switch and get good, it's a skill.
Stuart: Everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today super excited because we're sharing this conversation with Tim Wackel. Is it Wackel or Wackel? I suddenly thought I tripped over a name. I started today by forgetting three people's names on calls, so obviously I should have been more caffeinated.
Tim: I do it all the time.
Stuart: So, yeah, super excited today because we're sharing this conversation with Tim. Tim and I were introduced through a mutual friend a month or so ago and what really stood out and why I wanted to get on the call today is not only is Tim using a book in his lead generation process, but his approach to business development and his background in sales really I think resonates with everyone that's listening here in sales, really, I think resonates with everyone that's listening here, because ultimately, we're writing books to be in conversations with potential clients and that inevitably leads to a sales conversation. Tim, why don't we start give people a bit of a background on you and your, because you've got quite an illustrious history.
Tim: Well, I don't know if it's illustrious, so I'm kind of an accidental salesperson, stuart. At university I studied electrical engineering and when I got out of school I was an electrical engineer but was quickly approached by the management team and they really thought you know, maybe my skills would be better used in a technical sales role. And I don't know that I necessarily had skills that would lend me to be successful at a technical sales role, or if I was just really bad at soldering circuit boards. I think it was more the latter and less the former, but I started that journey almost four decades ago and figured it out. A lot of people and myself at that time thought that selling was dirty, slimy, manipulative, and it took me a while. But I got my head around that. No, selling, when done correctly, is an art and a science and you're genuinely out to try to help people do things they don't know they can do.
Stuart: That's the key term, isn't it? When it's done properly, there's good and bad. It's all under the spectrum and it's certainly the bad that gets a lot of the heat and light and people kind of default to thinking that way when they don't know about it. It gets a lot of the heat and light and people kind of default to thinking that way when they don't know about it. But at the end of the day, we're trying to help people make a decision that's best for them and really kind of advance what they're trying to do. So I think it's a superpower. It can be used for good or bad.
Tim: And unfortunately or fortunately for me a lot more people use it for bad than good, and I don't think they're purposeful on using it for bad. They just don't know any better.
Stuart: Right. Actually that's a great point, that idea of not knowing any better. I think a lot of time people are almost like you were, to a certain degree thrust into the role and it's not necessarily something that they're looking for. It tends to be the more seasoned professional that's in it because they've developed a love for it. I think at the junior end of the spectrum it's a little bit more sink or swim and the pressure to make sure that you don't sink too quickly leads to maybe unaligned outcomes.
On that sales approach and this idea of if I marry up the thought of the conversation, starting books that we help people to create, so identifying the need, the question and then delivering value to start that conversation, that I'm guessing starts to marry in with work that you do and helping teams to both dial in their sales strategies and tactics but also the development and the presentations that they ultimately give to people. What if people are listening here, thinking about starting that conversation? What is it about the journey and the things that they need to know? That makes that a win for everyone, If that's not too broad a question.
Tim: Well, you know, it might be, stuart, so I'd be more than happy to drill down on it with you, but, at the end of the day, if what you do, if the service you provide or the product that you offer is not a good fit and doesn't have a real ROI for your client or your prospect, then you need to get the hell out of there. You need to live for another day, and if you've got that kind of mindset, and if you have that kind of mindset, I believe you can be very successful. Now, that's the good news. The bad news is, though, if you have that mindset, you're going to have dry weeks, you're going to have dry months, you're going to have dry quarters right, if you want to make $120,000 a year and you want to do it $10,000 a month, you probably shouldn't be in sales, right, because that's just not the way it works. Again, if you've got the right intent, it all works out in the end, but it's not a short-term play, it's a long-term play.
Stuart: How do you find that marries up with teams? So the work that you do with sales teams there's a pressure in a work environment to meet quotas and targets. Is that a tension that's difficult to balance out between the people who are trying to live in a customer-centric world as much as possible versus having to meet quotas?
Tim: It can be. I would tell you, stuart, that if a client called me, or a prospective client called me, and it was all about making the number, and they wanted to make the number this week, this month, this quarter, I'm probably not the right guy. Eventually, there's going to be so much pressure to perform that the team, quite frankly, is not going to be open to new ideas. If I come in and I'm hosting a one-day, quite frankly, is not going to be open to new ideas, right, if I come in and I'm hosting a one-day workshop, people are not going to pay attention because after about an hour they're checking their phones, they're checking their voicemail, they're checking social media because they've got to go kill dinner. So so oftentimes when I work with clients, it's like hey, listen, here's the way this thing works is, you know, we're going to work with your team for a full day or a half a day or two days, whatever the case is, but we've got to give those seeds a chance to grow.
You know, I kind of grew up in an agricultural surrounding and you know my dad didn't wake up in the fall and say, oh crap, I need a crop. I'm going to go out and plant. Right. You plant in the spring, fertilize, you till, you need sunshine, you need moisture, and then in the fall you have a crop. And it's the same way with selling and sales skills. You just you can't flip a switch and get good. It's a skill. I love to play golf and golf is the same way, you know. Hey, I really want to be good at golf, so I'm going to go take a lesson and now I'm good at golf. No, you're not. You know it's.
Stuart:It takes a long time to develop, uh, the skills, the mindset and the attitude to be successful, right? One of the podcasts just before this was with a friend of ours called dave depaula, who wrote a book. So they have a golf training aid that helps break bad habits on the swing. So definitely not my own expertise at all, but he was saying similar things. If you want to be good at it, you kind of practice, but then you need to learn, unlearn all of the bad habits and then you can go forwards, which I guess is there's a correlation there with sales training as well.
It's easy to pick up bad habits just from the pressure of the environment and what everyone else is doing yeah I think what I liked about the approach of the or the agricultural analogy and the approach of what you do, this idea of sowing a crop that yields over the long call. From the book perspective, we talk about a very similar strategy of there's no such thing as dead leads. You don't know when the day is for the person. The other person's in control of whether they say yes, our job is to identify them in the first place, which is what we use the books for, but then nurture that relationship over the long run until today is the day for them. That tension between needing to go out and make the kill versus being in it for the long haul is that something that a lot of people struggle with as well? Either because they're just conditioned to think about it as, like the Glenn Gary, glenn Ross type, always be closing, as opposed to this longer term cycle?
Tim: Yeah, I guess the easiest way for me to answer that is that's where you get the good sales reps versus the bad sales reps. That's where you get the slimy, manipulative, pushy sales rep versus a sales rep. That's really in it for the long play. So the hey, you know. You know, first place is a set of steak knives and second place is I fire you that again.
I don't play in that environment because that's that's not what selling should be, and so obviously you know then that begs the question. I don't know if it begs the question. Ultimately, it takes time to build that book of business. A guy I sold with years and years ago used to say selling is like a flywheel. Right, and you go up to a flywheel that is static.
It takes a lot of time, energy and effort to get that bad boy to start spinning. Right, you got to really put in the work, you got to put in the effort, you got to put in the energy. But once you get that bad boy spinning, then all you got to do every once in a while is just give it a little more energy, just give it a little more energy. And I think it's a wonderful analogy to what selling is like. So you know, you hire somebody, you bring somebody in or you put somebody in a brand new territory. To expect results in 30 or 60 or even 90 days, I think is typically in most situations, unrealistic. You've got to have a certain amount of time to develop that book of business and then, once you develop that book of business, then again you just got to keep the energy going.
Stuart: Yeah, that approach of keeping the energy going. The kind of line between sales and marketing is always kind of defined by definition and everyone's got a slightly different perspective on it the more long-term nurturing I think again, not being in that area of business, so looking at it from an outsider, you kind of have the perception that sales people think of the short term and marketers think of the long term. But understanding that it's the long term that makes the sales successful, the people who are most successful in that space, is that more from that long-term nurturing and checking in with no real a genuine interest in the clients rather than necessarily a sales intent? Is it much more about relationship building rather than kind of responding to a particular activity?
Tim: I believe. So I think salespeople kind of fall into one of two camps, that you're either a peddler or your partner.
Peddlers show up when there's need budget and timeframe. Right, A peddler is there to sell you something. A partner is not. A partner will sell you something and then, in 60 days, follow up and say, hey, how's it working? What do you like best about our widget? If I gave you a magic wand and there's one thing about our widget that you could change, what would you change and why? Right, A partner is there because they want their client to be successful, so they will have conversations and they will show up even though there's no food in the trough. The peddler only shows up if there's food in the trough. If there's need budget, timeframe, I'm there because I'm a peddler. Partners are more like hey, listen, I may not have a solution for you today, but I'd just love to know more about what you guys have got going on, what direction you're trying to get to and what are some of the current obstacles you're facing. Completely different conversations.
Stuart: I think that's the great thing, that's what resonated when we first spoke a couple of weeks ago this idea of being in conversation and adding value and nurturing over the long term until an opportunity presents itself that's mutually beneficial. There's definitely an element of that in the things that we do. So creating a book isn't something that the peddlers are interested so much because it's too long-term based, Whereas the partner approach, as you describe it's much more around adding that value from the perspective that we come to in terms of writing the book. At least adding that value in the perspective that we come to in terms of writing the book, at least adding that value in the thing that identifies the invisible leads to begin with and gets people to raise their hand, but is really the starting point of the conversation. And the book is never a build it and they will come type thing or you're very rarely converting people with the book, but it's starting that conversation.
How do you? Not secrets or magic tricks, but the challenge that some people have is okay, I can envisage collecting all of these leads and to a certain degree I can imagine staying in touch with them, but the practicalities of staying in touch or the mental models to remember to stay in touch. Are there any pointers that you have for people so that becomes top of mind rather than kind of day-to-day and peddler type activity, pointers that you have for people so that becomes top of mind rather than kind of day-to-day and peddler type activity?
Tim: Yeah, you know, consistency matters. You know 1% every day. What's the old saying If you just get 1% better every day, in 72 days you're twice as good as you are right now. So you know, it's not about blotting out the sun or boiling the ocean, but it's about hey, what can I do to make sure that the people I want to do business with know that I'm here and that I'm adding value? You know, in my own practice, every week we're pushing short form videos, two minute tips with Tim right. We're pushing that to over 30,000 people. I don't have 30,000 people calling me right now because they got this morning's tip right, but out of the 30,000, maybe we got 30 that got that tip and they're like golly, you know what? This is a great idea and my sales team really should get their head around this. Or, I'd like to learn more. I'd like to discuss this with Tim. So Again, it's about planting seeds.
Stuart: Yeah, and that's such a great point, isn't it? I think it's easy to underestimate the effectiveness of small, incremental but consistent activities. There's so many things Like you think of social media, the successes going viral when the likelihood of that ever happening is so slim in the first place, and even the effectiveness of that is much smaller than just a consistent, small amount of outreach and the overhead of writing or recording a long video. It's a headache, it takes some setup, but doing a quick selfie type thing, capturing something in the moment, being able to share that quickly and tools have definitely improved that even in the last five years, even since the pandemic the tools that are available it's really improved it. We didn't talk about this beforehand, so you might not have a particular opinion on it. I'm just thinking about tools, the amount that AI is available to support people at the moment. I think this is another example of things can be used for good or things can be used for bad.
And as far as book writing goes, we'll have some people that say, oh well, can't AI do that for me? And our approach is not in any meaningful way yet. And even if it could, the purpose of the book is starting a conversation. So you want your words and your framework and your language, because eventually it's going to end up in a phone call and people want to meet the person that they read. So, as far as sales goes, there's a number of just scroll through Instagram for a moment and there's a number of kind of lead closing tools or AI booking tools. That, to me, falls into the same category, at least at the moment of there's no silver bullet, and if you're trying to use a tool as a silver bullet, then it's a highway to failure. Being in the trenches, obviously more than I am do you see people asking the same questions, looking for shortcuts.
Tim: So I see, sorry about that, let me kill this phone. So I see a lot of people that think AI is going to be the second coming and it's not. I think the word you used is it's a tool. Too many people put too much stock into AI and when they do, ai is no longer a tool. It kind of makes them look like a tool, if you know what I mean, because AI is good but it has its limitations. I get targeted a lot. I don't has its limitations. I get targeted a lot I don't know why, but I get targeted a lot and 90% of it is really seriously. Did anybody even look at this? I mean, it's 80%, really good, and then it's 20%. No, I'm not a female living in Australia, so you kind of miss the target there, right? So it's just one arrow in the quiver.
Stuart: Right. I think that 80-20 analogy works perfectly well because it can amplify and give you an 80% advantage on the things that you're doing. But trying to get it to 100% and missing the 20% just puts a nail in the coffin of the whole message. Because we use the analogy of. We have another podcast called More Cheese, less Whiskers that Dean does and the premise of that name is a customer is a little bit like a mouse heading towards the cheese and they're all in and enthusiastic about getting to the cheese.
But if there's even a hint of whiskers of overly commercial intent or misaligned objectives, then it's run first and maybe come back later. So the hint of whiskers it's the same in that ai model. It's too easy, for if you're trying to just get a push and play type result, it kind of misses the mark. Um, we were talking now about the types of of organization, or we spoke earlier about the types of organizations that aren't the best fit, the type of organizations that you work really well with, clearly these partner type organizations, rather than the paddlers, the people who are in it for the long run. Is there anything else that kind of brings those companies together, any kind of similarities in the gut in the people who you work best with.
Tim: You know, I would tell you so in my world it's all going to be, you know, b2b. It's all more complex selling. You know, in the B2B world there's some people that it's, you know, one call to close. I don't know what that is right. We're not doing mufflers, we're not doing roofing, so it's all B2B and it's typically a more complex, longer term.
A lot of the clients I'm dealing with are trying to figure out how do I proactively grow my business. You know, way too many sales organizations today, stuart, have become reactive sales organizations. So they're waiting for that phone to ring, they're waiting for that email to show up. So they're waiting for that phone to ring, they're waiting for that email to show up. They're waiting for somebody to hit them up on social media, right. And too many salespeople have become really good account managers, and it's really important to be a good account manager.
I'm all over account management, but that's just one part of the equation. Right, you got to be able to service and maintain the installed base. You got to do account management, but you also have to spend part of every day, or every week at a minimum, proactively going out and trying to have new conversations, either inside of existing accounts or have new conversations with new logos, and salespeople don't want to do that because they don't know how to do it. And if you don't know how to do something, then you're faced with a lot of rejection, right, and nobody likes rejection. So you know they show up the next day and it's like well, I could spend my eight hours servicing the installed base who know me, love me and trust me? Or I could spend six hours servicing the installed base and then two hours trying to knock on new doors. Nah, I'd rather not do that. And again, you can maintain a business, I believe, by just servicing the installed base.
But what if 10, 20, or 30% of your rep's time was focused on really going out and acquiring new conversations, acquiring new logos? That's where you get the logarithmic effect is man, you've got to, you got to do both. Right, you got to maintain what's there, but you got to go. You got to go find somebody different. Because whether we want to believe it or not, one day every client wakes up and says you know what, I want to go in a different direction. That's just a part of life. And so if your pipeline is full of like, just three different companies and one day that one of those three decides to go in a different direction, you've just lost a third. Simple math. You've just lost a third of your funnel. Well now, what are you going to do Now? Using the analogy of the farm, this is like waking up in the fall and saying, oh crap, I want to crop Now what do I do?
Well, it's like well, you write this year off and you get ready for next year. That's the only thing you can do.
Stuart: Yeah, it's such a great reminder that even when in times of good, that's the time to plant new seeds, not in times when things are getting a little bit desperate because you just run out of runway or options, I think for the audiences that are listening, the majority of people have kind of expressed an interest in writing a book as a lead generation tool, so that I'm assuming that some of the other organizations that you work with have done something similar, whether it's actually a book or material information that they're sharing with people, that transition from someone raising their hand to taking that first call. I think that gives some people a little bit of reticence about how they make that transition or start to introduce a conversation above just passively delivering stuff. Do you have any advice or pointers for people kind of taking that step?
Tim: Yeah, don't pitch probe the number one thing I see I shouldn't say it's the number one thing One of the top things I see is a prospective client raises their hands and says, okay, I'm kind of interested, I'd like to learn more, and then people just want to show up and throw up. Right, it's the spray and pray mentality of let me tell you. Let me tell you how great we are. Let me tell you how diverse we are. Let me tell you how great we are. Nobody gives a rip. So the hardest thing for most people to get their head around is once somebody raises their hand and expresses an interest. This is where the work starts and you got to say, wow, man, I really I'm excited that you've expressed this interest. Tell me more. Why are you interested? Why is this important to you? What have you tried before? Why did it not work?
Assuming this would work, what it would mean to you? Are there others that have a stake in this? If I gave you a magic wand and you could design the perfect solution, what would that perfect solution look like? I mean, you've got to have this whole conversation where you've got to let that other party define for you. This is exactly what I'm looking for. Once we understand exactly what they're looking for, now we can take our products and our services and we can position it accordingly.
Right, if the client really doesn't give a rip, what color your solution is, why are you spending so much time talking about that? Your solution's blue, right. You're demonstrating that you didn't listen and you're wasting their time, and nobody has a bunch of free time. So, yeah, the number one tip is don't sell, just ask questions. Ask questions. You got to pretend you're a reporter for the newspaper who, why, where, when, what else you know? Just you've got to drill down, until you got to drill down so much that if you went home that night and had a cup of coffee with your spouse or your partner, you should be able to relay the story back Right.
And the story shouldn't be yeah, talk to this guy today and he wants a widget. That's not the story shouldn't be yeah, talk to this guy today and he wants a widget. That's not the story. The story should be hey, this organization raised their hand and they're interested in a widget. And what I found to be fascinating is that they've done this and this is how the widget would play, and this is why the widget's important to them, and these are all the people that would benefit from having a new widget right. You got to be able to tell that story, and if you can't tell the story, it's way too early for you to be selling.
Stuart: Yeah, that's actually such a great point because, even like I've been doing this long enough now that I should know better. But I enthusiastically get carried away because I think that the majority of people that I speak to should be using a book in their funnel, whether or not they do it with us, but just to be able to share their ideas. So enthusiastically get carried away in sharing that idea with people at the expense of drilling into the why as much as it should do. So it's a great reminder that not only does it take the pressure off asking probing questions it's there's no sales intent to that, it's you're not actually dealing with the rejection that you mentioned before, so it takes some of the pressure off but also to be able to tailor that enthusiasm. Not necessarily don't be enthusiastic, but you're right if no, if I'm excited that the cover is blue and they don't like blue, then that would be good to know beforehand, regardless of the sale, just to be able to talk to them about something that they're more excited in.
Tim: Yeah, I mean, you know the cover is blue, there's nothing you can do about it, but you don't need to go on about how blue your cover is right. I mean, again, you're never going to have the perfect solution. There's no such thing. But only through having a complete due diligence are we able to really say okay, you know, these are the hundred things that this client thinks are really important, or these are the 10 things the client thinks are really important, and out of those 10, there's seven we do really well. Those would be the seven I'd really want to focus on and and continue to advance the conversation until the client's like okay, you know, that's pretty good. And then, in complete disclosure, you go okay, listen, I know you love those seven, but there are three that we haven't talked about and three that we don't do really well. And I want to make sure you got your head around that before we get to the next step.
Stuart: Yeah, which that brings back to the partner point of you know that if you know that you're going to be checking in with people down the road, you want this to be a long term relationship. You don't want any nasty surprises. The whole point is doing this in partnership.
Tim: Yeah, yeah, because you know what, anybody can get the first sale, that's, I shouldn't say anybody. Getting the first sale is much easier. Getting the second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth sale, that's much harder. And you only do that if you do the first sale really well.
Stuart:Right. That's one of the things I like about this business is we've done a. I mean we could definitely do more, but we've done a nice number of second, third, fourth books down the track. Once people have got the first one out of their system and are seeing how to use it to be able to then think about from a campaign perspective rather than a bestseller perspective. Think about these tools is starting these conversations. It's nice when that happens, but we could definitely do more to more to encourage that, and that probably is from asking better questions.
One of the other things that springs to mind as well is quite often when we're talking to people about the back cover of their book, we're talking about conversation, starting books. The back cover isn't to sell the book. The back cover is to present the next step. So we're often talking about next steps as being for the people who are just broadly interested but not yet interested, consume more information and then, at the bottom of the option, the most committed, it's get started now or whatever that first step is.
But this middle step of those people who are more interested but not yet interested or don't have the relationship enough to raise their hand and jump on a call. It's what's that middle step? So we're often talking about things like scorecards or white papers or assessments, but actually I really like what you were saying and doubling down on this idea of probing for more questions. That middle step is the perfect opportunity to do that because it adds value by orchestrating useful questions but also the information that you're getting back Very useful. So, yeah, thank you, I'll steal that and I'll give you credit as I tell other people.
Tim: Well, I don't know if I deserve the credit. You know, if you're in sales and you don't do that, your kids start getting skinny really quick, and that's when you start to figure it out.
Stuart:So Right yeah, necessities of the mother in prevention.
Tim: It certainly is.
Stuart:I'm super appreciative of your time and I know you're busy. I'm glad that we got this on the calendar. I'm really excited to share this with people. I want to make sure that they've got opportunity to find out more about you and what it is that you do. As I said, the organizations that we've worked with and the people on the list span the remit from small companies to larger companies, so all of them have got some sales capability in there somewhere that they could benefit from what you do. So where's a good place for people to go?
Tim: Well, there's a couple of places, depending on how intimate you want to get. If you don't want to get that intimate but you like these kinds of ideas and insights, then I'd connect with me on LinkedIn Because, like I said, three times a week I'm pushing content on LinkedIn. Most of it's short form video two minute tip with Tim on prospecting, qualifying, presenting, building better relationships, handling objections right All those things that go into becoming a good salesperson. For those that want to go a step deeper, go out to the website and check out the website. Timwackel.com, t-i-m-w-a-c-k-e-l, timwackel.com and there's a lot of free resources out there. You got to peek and poke a little bit, but that would be a real, appropriate next step.
Stuart:Fantastic. Well, I'll make sure that we put links into those as well. So if people are listening to a podcast player or if they visit the website, there'll just be a link there both to the LinkedIn profile and to the website. And, as I said before, I highly recommend people going across. Tim's got a stack of resources in there and I think this model, this methodology, just ties in so nicely with the approach that we're preaching all the time. But your point of view is obviously much more focused on the sales and the execution and we do the little piece that we do, but it really does tie in quite well. It's a nice mix, tim. I appreciate it. I know everyone listening will get a lot from this call. So thanks for the time and then look forward to checking in with you in the future.
Tim: All right, stuart, thank you. Thank you, bye-bye now.